shimano 105 hub bearings?
Nate Nagel
just got my new wheels today and since I'm still waiting for tires from
Nashbar (I figured I'd drink the Pasela Kool-Aid; if I don't like 'em I
can always just put my old tires on) was wondering if I should repack
bearings or are they sealed cartridges? I tried to DAGS and got a
couple forum threads where nobody agreed with each other as to what type
of bearings were used :) rear is marked FH-5500 and front is marked
HB-5500.
I know, just pull 'em apart, but they're actually buttery smooth now (no
idea how many miles, but the brake tracks aren't noticeably worn) so I'd
rather not take the chance of horking something up if they aren't
serviceable anyway.
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
Clive George
news:h5t2f...@news1.newsguy.com...
> ...are they cup/cone or cartridge?
>
> just got my new wheels today and since I'm still waiting for tires from
> Nashbar (I figured I'd drink the Pasela Kool-Aid; if I don't like 'em I
> can always just put my old tires on) was wondering if I should repack
> bearings or are they sealed cartridges? I tried to DAGS and got a couple
> forum threads where nobody agreed with each other as to what type of
> bearings were used :) rear is marked FH-5500 and front is marked HB-5500.
>
> I know, just pull 'em apart, but they're actually buttery smooth now (no
> idea how many miles, but the brake tracks aren't noticeably worn) so I'd
> rather not take the chance of horking something up if they aren't
> serviceable anyway.
Cup'n'cone.
Are any shimano cartridge?
Nate Nagel
If I knew, I wouldn't have asked :) First hubs I've had that I've
noticed an identifying brand on :P
So now I feel obligated to repack 'em...
Chalo
>
> Clive George wrote:
>
> >>
> >> ...are they cup/cone or cartridge?
> >
> >
> > Are any shimano cartridge?
>
> If I knew, I wouldn't have asked :) First hubs I've had that I've
> noticed an identifying brand on :P
>
> So now I feel obligated to repack 'em...
For future reference, Shimano hubs are "cartridge bearings" in their
entirely-- expedient, interchangeable, and basically disposable. It's
cheaper for Shimano to do it that way than to buy in decent cartridges
from SKF or the like.
They last as long as most people are likely to use them, even if not
as long as hubs with replaceable bearings.
Chalo
Jobst Brandt
> ...are they cup/cone or cartridge?
You don't need to separate the freehub from the hub body, the bearings being exposed enough when the axle cones are taken out.
http://www.paul-lange.de/produkte/shimano/support/explosionszeichungen_archiv/FH/FH-2200.pdf
http://www.paul-lange.de/produkte/shimano/support/explosionszeichungen_archiv/FH/FH-3300-B.pdf
http://www.paul-lange.de/produkte/shimano/support/explosionszeichungen_archiv/FH/FH-5600-2458B.pdf
They all look alike and work alike so you can poke around in their
exploded view web site for what you want to see:
http://www.paul-lange.de/produkte/shimano/support/explosionszeichungen_archiv/FH
> just got my new wheels today and since I'm still waiting for tires
> from Nashbar (I figured I'd drink the Pasela Kool-Aid; if I don't
> like 'em I can always just put my old tires on) was wondering if I
> should repack bearings or are they sealed cartridges? I tried to
> DAGS and got a couple forum threads where nobody agreed with each
> other as to what type of bearings were used :) rear is marked
> FH-5500 and front is marked HB-5500.
> I know, just pull 'em apart, but they're actually buttery smooth now
> (no idea how many miles, but the brake tracks aren't noticeably
> worn) so I'd rather not take the chance of horking something up if
> they aren't serviceable anyway.
Don't put grease on the ratchet pawls because that can cause them to
mis-engage and damage the leading edge of the pawls and the ratchet
"teeth". These pawls have large radius pivots, a design that Regina
first introduced years ago. They don't work well with high viscosity
oils and grease. To make up for that, the ratchet is silent rather
than klickety-clack like so many others that are made by people who
don't understand the way ratchets transmit torque from a tangential
pull, such as on a chain driven freewheel.
Jobst Brandt
Ozark Bicycle
What is the source of your displeasure with Shimano hubs? Is it the
fact that the *cups* aren't replaceable (note that replaceable cups
are far from common)?
I, personally, have had excellent service from Shimano hubs (e.g., 600
series FW hubs in service since 1986, Deore LX series FH in service
since 1991 - lotsa miles on both sets). Replace the bearing balls and,
occasionally, the cones, clean and lube as needed, adjust 'em properly
- and they're good to go....and go...and go. What's not to like?
N8N
> To make up for that, the ratchet is silent rather
> than klickety-clack like so many others that are made by people who
> don't understand the way ratchets transmit torque from a tangential
> pull, such as on a chain driven freewheel.
>
> Jobst Brandt
I *like* the clickety-clack :) seems less rude than a bell somehow.
Actually the freehub on my old hub is darn near silent as well, and
I've found myself being somewhat jealous of riders with louder
freehubs, because then it's easy for people in front to know when a
faster rider is behind them...
nate
jim beam
wot? like "some people" don't understand that a load calculation is not
a strength calculation? or that spokes fatigue from bending, not
"residual stress". /that/ kind of tangential pull?
landotter
> ...are they cup/cone or cartridge?
>
> just got my new wheels today and since I'm still waiting for tires from
> Nashbar (I figured I'd drink the Pasela Kool-Aid; if I don't like 'em I
> can always just put my old tires on)
FWIW, Performancebike has Super Paselas on sale now if you desire
blackwall. Otherwise known as "Panaracer Urban Max". Same tread, but
casings in the spirit of Richard Roundtree.
>was wondering if I should repack
> bearings or are they sealed cartridges? I tried to DAGS and got a
> couple forum threads where nobody agreed with each other as to what type
> of bearings were used :) rear is marked FH-5500 and front is marked
> HB-5500.
>
> I know, just pull 'em apart, but they're actually buttery smooth now (no
> idea how many miles, but the brake tracks aren't noticeably worn) so I'd
> rather not take the chance of horking something up if they aren't
> serviceable anyway.
grab an axle with one hand, make as much of a fist with the remaining
fingers as you can, start the wheel spinning, and plug your ear with a
knuckle on that hand without shearing off your nose. This will conduct
sound through your skull bone, like a crude stethoscope and you'll
know whether the bearings are dry or not.
Peter Cole
A car nut like Nate must have a mechanic's stethoscope.
N8N
you mean a long screwdriver? :P
actually that was a good idea, I'll have to try that. Although I have
a feeling I'll end up not being able to resist pulling them apart
anyway, because I'm anal-retentive like that. Which is good,
actually, when you're maintaining equipment... (e.g. it really
bothers me that my pickup truck still hasn't had the power steering
fluid changed...)
nate
Jobst Brandt
>> To make up for that, the ratchet is silent rather than
>> klickety-clack like so many others that are made by people who
>> don't understand the way ratchets transmit torque from a tangential
>> pull, such as on a chain driven freewheel.
> I *like* the clickety-clack :) seems less rude than a bell somehow.
Most of the loud escapements are face ratchets like HUGI or have "belt
and suspenders" ratchet springs on multiple simultaneous engagement
pawls. As I said, these folks don't understand that multiple
engagement does not mean multiple load bearing.
Beyond that, one hears these ratchets only when coasting, usually from
folks riding the other way as one ascends. If you are descending, you
should have wind roaring about your ears and will only hear such a
device as it passes. Why are they passing?
> Actually the freehub on my old hub is darn near silent as well, and
> I've found myself being somewhat jealous of riders with louder
> freehubs, because then it's easy for people in front to know when a
> faster rider is behind them...
Large radius pivot pawls are used by people who mass produce such
escapements, because the return spring is a single circular spring
wire encircling slotted pawls while holding them in place during
assembly, pressing on their un-slotted heels (the reason they make
almost no engaging noise). It was a great design improvement over
individual springs that try to throw the pawls out during assembly and
subsequently make noise! With those, assembly often required wrapping
a sewing thread around the pawls that was pulled out after after
engaging the core with pawls in the ratchet ring.
Jobst Brandt
someone
If you dont hear anything, leave it or inject a little oil either in
provided oil holes or between axle and shield. Use a 2.5ml syringe
with needle large enough to pass the oil. This is enough for both
sides. Warm it to reduce viscocity. I used to like the plastic
shields on my Zeus hubs becase they could be removed to inspect the
bearings by eye without any other dissasembly. Only dissasemble a hub
when rotation of the axle produces undesirable noise when listening
witha stethescope. Rotate axle by 1/6 from original position. I
think this should even out wear. I've had no prob's doing it.
someone
> Nate Nagel <njna...@roosters.net> wrote:
> > ...are they cup/cone or cartridge?
>
> You don't need to separate the freehub from the hub body, the bearings being exposed enough when the axle cones are taken out.
>
>
> http://www.paul-lange.de/produkte/shimano/support/explosionszeichunge...
>
> http://www.paul-lange.de/produkte/shimano/support/explosionszeichunge...
>
> They all look alike and work alike so you can poke around in their
> exploded view web site for what you want to see:
>
>
> > just got my new wheels today and since I'm still waiting for tires
> > from Nashbar (I figured I'd drink the Pasela Kool-Aid; if I don't
> > like 'em I can always just put my old tires on) was wondering if I
> > should repack bearings or are they sealed cartridges? I tried to
> > DAGS and got a couple forum threads where nobody agreed with each
> > other as to what type of bearings were used :) rear is marked
> > FH-5500 and front is marked HB-5500.
> > I know, just pull 'em apart, but they're actually buttery smooth now
> > (no idea how many miles, but the brake tracks aren't noticeably
> > worn) so I'd rather not take the chance of horking something up if
> > they aren't serviceable anyway.
>
> Don't put grease on the ratchet pawls because that can cause them to
> mis-engage and damage the leading edge of the pawls and the ratchet
> "teeth". These pawls have large radius pivots, a design that Regina
> first introduced years ago. They don't work well with high viscosity
> oils and grease. To make up for that, the ratchet is silent rather
> than klickety-clack like so many others that are made by people who
> don't understand the way ratchets transmit torque from a tangential
> pull, such as on a chain driven freewheel.
>
The Regina pawls do work well with grease of low consistency. This is
what makes them near silent. With thin oil they are quite audible to
most, as can be determined by audible detection of the ratchet of
someone following. They should get quieter as the ring wears a groove
into its seating in the pawl, but I expect I didn't do enough
freewheeling for this wear to occur, so always used a little grease
around the pawls. Addition of a little oil to the grease to slacken
it ensures that it does not thicken to block clutch function. If the
rider can detect the start of dysfunction then oiling the freewheel
liberally from the front will quickly and easily rectify the matter.
P. Chisholm
> Nate Nagel wrote:
>
> > Clive George wrote:
>
> > > Nate Nagel wrote:
>
> > >> ...are they cup/cone or cartridge?
>
> > > Cup'n'cone.
>
> > > Are any shimano cartridge?
>
> > If I knew, I wouldn't have asked :) First hubs I've had that I've
> > noticed an identifying brand on :P
>
> > So now I feel obligated to repack 'em...
>
> For future reference, Shimano hubs are "cartridge bearings" in their
> entirely-- expedient, interchangeable, and basically disposable. It's
> cheaper for Shimano to do it that way than to buy in decent cartridges
> from SKF or the like.
Not true. All the hubs I encounter,Deore, LX, STX, XT, XTR, DA,
Ultegra, 105, and the accociated wheels...are all cup and cone, Loose
balls.
Hank
> On Aug 11, 7:31 pm, Nate Nagel <njna...@roosters.net> wrote:
>
> > ...are they cup/cone or cartridge?
>
> > just got my new wheels today and since I'm still waiting for tires from
> > Nashbar (I figured I'd drink the Pasela Kool-Aid; if I don't like 'em I
> > can always just put my old tires on)
>
> FWIW, Performancebike has Super Paselas on sale now if you desire
> blackwall. Otherwise known as "Panaracer Urban Max". Same tread, but
> casings in the spirit of Richard Roundtree.
>
Same tread, but FAR stiffer casings, lower thread count (27 vs. 66
TPI), and 10% heavier than Pasela TGs. 15% heavier than unbelted
Paselas.
Paselas are my favorite tires ever, but Urban Max ride like bricks
tied to your rims. Same goes for T-Serv and Crosstown (AKA Forte
Gotham) - 27TPI casings ride horribly. Do not like.
Hank
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Has Shimano *ever* done a cartridge hub? Even their dynamos use loose
balls. I remember reading a blurb on their web site that they only do
loose ball hubs for the adjustability and rebuildability that you
can't get with cartridges.
I have no idea what Chalo was trying to get at.
Clive George
news:1b197613-d95c-490a...@2g2000prl.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 12, 3:27 pm, "P. Chisholm" <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>> On Aug 11, 9:03 pm, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Nate Nagel wrote:
>>
>> > > Clive George wrote:
>>
>> > > > Nate Nagel wrote:
>>
>> > > >> ...are they cup/cone or cartridge?
>>
>> > > > Cup'n'cone.
>>
>> > > > Are any shimano cartridge?
>>
>> > > If I knew, I wouldn't have asked :) First hubs I've had that I've
>> > > noticed an identifying brand on :P
>>
>> > > So now I feel obligated to repack 'em...
>>
>> > For future reference, Shimano hubs are "cartridge bearings" in their
>> > entirely-- expedient, interchangeable, and basically disposable. It's
>> > cheaper for Shimano to do it that way than to buy in decent cartridges
>> > from SKF or the like.
>>
>> Not true. All the hubs I encounter,Deore, LX, STX, XT, XTR, DA,
>> Ultegra, 105, and the accociated wheels...are all cup and cone, Loose
>> balls.
>>
>> > They last as long as most people are likely to use them, even if not
>> > as long as hubs with replaceable bearings.
>
>balls. I remember reading a blurb on their web site that they only do
>loose ball hubs for the adjustability and rebuildability that you
>can't get with cartridges.
>
>I have no idea what Chalo was trying to get at.
I understood it :-)
The point was no need for nice cartridge bearings when the cup'n'cone ones
they work well enough for nearly all, and their way is cheaper.
Personallly I hate adjusting bearings, so non-shimano is high up on my list
of desirables.
Dan O
I think he meant disposable - what IBM used to call Field Replaceable
Unit (FRU).
z
Not trying to be argumentative with you but, supposedly they use loose
ball hubs for adjustability and rebuildability, however they do the
opposite for their brifters?
Jobst Brandt
>>>>>>> ...are they cup/cone or cartridge?
>>>>>> Cup and cone.
>>>>>> Are any shimano cartridge?
>>>>> If I knew, I wouldn't have asked. Hubs I've had that I've
>>>>> noticed an identifying brand on,
>>>>> So now I feel obligated to repack 'em...
>>>> For future reference, Shimano hubs are "cartridge bearings" in
>>>> their entirely-- expedient, interchangeable, and basically
>>>> disposable. It's cheaper for Shimano to do it that way than to
>>>> buy in decent cartridges from SKF or the like.
>>> Not true. All the hubs I encounter,Deore, LX, STX, XT, XTR, DA,
>>> Ultegra, 105, and the associated wheels... are all cup and cone,
>>> Loose balls.
>>>> They last as long as most people are likely to use them, even if
>>>> not as long as hubs with replaceable bearings.
>> Has Shimano *ever* done a cartridge hub? Even their dynamos use
>> loose balls. I remember reading a blurb on their web site that
>> they only do loose ball hubs for the adjustability and
>> maintenance that you can't get with cartridges.
>> I have no idea what Chalo was trying to get at.
> I understood it.
> The point was no need for nice cartridge bearings when the cup and
> cone ones they work well enough for nearly all, and their way is
> cheaper.
> Personally I hate adjusting bearings, so non-shimano is high up on
> my list of desirables.
Regardless of whether any of these use cartridge bearings, the same
holds true about bearing failure.
When wheel bearings fail, other than from running dry or rusting, it
is caused by QR preload. When the QR lever is closed, it has
resistance and an over-center closure. The force does not come from a
spring somewhere in the hub, but from stretching the skewer and
compressing the axle. Compressing the axle changes wheel bearing
adjustment, and in most wheels whose bearings have been adjusted for
ideal running, this preloads the bearings substantially and causes
spalling (the flaking of its cone or sometimes its cup bearing
surface).
A test for proper bearing adjustment of an installed QR wheel can be
observed by allowing the wheel to cost to a slow stop. If the wheel
comes to rest with a slight oscillating wiggle, the bearings are too
tight from QR axle compression. Either readjust the bearings with a
slight clearance and leave the QR as it was, or adjust the QR to close
less tightly. Alternately, if the bearings are too loose, that can be
felt by wiggling the tire from side to side.
Jobst Brandt
Chalo
>
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> > For future reference, Shimano hubs are "cartridge bearings" in their
> > entirely-- expedient, interchangeable, and basically disposable. It's
> > cheaper for Shimano to do it that way than to buy in decent cartridges
> > from SKF or the like.
> >
> > They last as long as most people are likely to use them, even if not
> > as long as hubs with replaceable bearings.
>
> What is the source of your displeasure with Shimano hubs? Is it the
> fact that the *cups* aren't replaceable (note that replaceable cups
> are far from common)?
It's that when the bearing goes, the hub goes... thus the wheel. The
presumption on their part is that their bearing cups will outlast the
rest of the wheel (not likely) or your interest in the wheel (more
likely) and that by then you won't care and you'll buy another Shimano
hub. You probably do, but I don't.
I build my wheels to last; therefore I want hubs that will last. That
means cartridge bearings, and by extension, not Shimano.
Cartridge bearing hubs are as good as new (or better than new-- have
your choice) when they get new cartridges pressed in.
> I, personally, have had excellent service from Shimano hubs (e.g., 600
> series FW hubs in service since 1986, Deore LX series FH in service
> since 1991 - lotsa miles on both sets). Replace the bearing balls and,
> occasionally, the cones, clean and lube as needed, adjust 'em properly
> - and they're good to go....and go...and go. What's not to like?
I have seen folks happily using 30-year-old wheels with Shimano or
other consumable hubs, too. They work well a lot of the time. I have
also consigned innumerable otherwise usable wheels to the recycler
because the hub bearings were beyond retrieval. Even a wheel that
isn't worth the bother of relacing would often be worth popping in $4
worth of new cartridge bearings for another go 'round, if it used
cartridge bearings. (Which they mostly don't.)
In between these times, why routinely disassemble, repack, and adjust
hubs when you could just run them with no attention whatsoever until
they need another set of all-new inexpensive bearing elements?
Chalo
Chalo
>
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> > For future reference, Shimano hubs are "cartridge bearings" in their
> > entirely-- expedient, interchangeable, and basically disposable. It's
> > cheaper for Shimano to do it that way than to buy in decent cartridges
> > from SKF or the like.
>
> Not true. All the hubs I encounter,Deore, LX, STX, XT, XTR, DA,
> Ultegra, 105, and the accociated wheels...are all cup and cone, Loose
> balls.
Right. I'm saying a DA hub (for instance) is a cartridge bearing:
Cheap (to manufacture) and disposable.
Chalo
damyth
This has got to be one of the biggest piece of FUD ever written.
Back in the old days when freewheels were prevalent I was partial to
cartridge bearing hubs from Suntour (remember Superbe Pros?) and
Specialized. But these days no-one comes close to the durability of a
Shimano freehub body.
Who makes a decent freehub body with cartridge bearings that outlasts/
is a better value than ones from Shimano? I wouldn't trust non-
Shimano freehub bodies any farther than I can throw them.
Clive George
news:24defeef-42ef-4ace...@g1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
>Back in the old days when freewheels were prevalent I was partial to
>cartridge bearing hubs from Suntour (remember Superbe Pros?) and
>Specialized. But these days no-one comes close to the durability of a
>Shimano freehub body.
>Who makes a decent freehub body with cartridge bearings that outlasts/
>is a better value than ones from Shimano? I wouldn't trust non-
>Shimano freehub bodies any farther than I can throw them.
Shimano freehubs are too weak for some of my uses. There are stronger ones
out there.
jim beam
so, answer the question: "Who makes a decent freehub body with cartridge
bearings that outlasts/is a better value than ones from Shimano? "
N8N
So the inner races can't be pressed out then? just from my automotive-
centric perspective I far prefer the traditional tapered-roller
bearings with separate grease seal from a serviceability perspective,
so I ASSumed that the same was true for bike stuff - I can get a new
set of tapered rollers and a new grease seal for my old Porsche far
cheaper than a new "sealed" front wheel bearing for a newer VW, say,
and fewer special tools required to R&R (couple wrenches, sockets and
a brass drift, as opposed to a special on the car pressing tool) plus
the old school bearings just appear to be more secure (hub is
positively locked to spindle by the bearings, as opposed to the
bearing shell depending on a press fit and circlip for retention)
Plus, every 10 years or so, I disassemble them, squish some fresh
grease through them, and install a new grease seal (if I've thought
ahead and ordered one) have yet to have a wheel bearing failure on any
car that I've serviced as above.
nate
N8N
heh... the tires on the bike now are 32mm Urban Max (installed by
PO.) I also have the original Hutchinson cross tires that I'm saving
for winter. Performance doesn't have the Urban Max in anything less
than 32mm and I wanted to try 28s to see if they rolled any better, so
I have Pasela TGs on order (have for a while, actually - not sure what
the deal is. Wondering if I should drop them a line as they show them
as having shipped around Monday-ish but USPS doesn't recognize the
tracking number.)
nate
Peter Cole
> In between these times, why routinely disassemble, repack, and adjust
> hubs when you could just run them with no attention whatsoever until
> they need another set of all-new inexpensive bearing elements?
Yeah but you get a steady supply of used bearings for your slingshot.
Chalo
>
> Clive George wrote:
> >>
> >> Who makes a decent freehub body with cartridge bearings that outlasts/
> >> is a better value than ones from Shimano? I wouldn't trust non-
> >> Shimano freehub bodies any farther than I can throw them.
> >
> > Shimano freehubs are too weak for some of my uses. There are stronger ones
> > out there.
>
> so, answer the question: "Who makes a decent freehub body with cartridge
> bearings that outlasts/is a better value than ones from Shimano? "
Phil freehubs seem to work. As to their value for cost... not so
much.
Chalo
AMuzi
russell...@yahoo.com
> > Who makes a decent freehub body with cartridge bearings that outlasts/
> > is a better value than ones from Shimano?
>
> Phil Wood USA
>
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Phil Wood better value? Here are a couple pages from their website.
I am not sure I am looking in the right spots because the price on the
rear hub is over $400. This has to be some kind of error because I
just cannot believe any bicyclist is stupid enough to blow that much
money on a rear hub.
http://philwood.com/store/page17.html
http://philwood.com/store/page15.html
Well maybe that $400 price is correct. I see Shitmano is charging
$350 for its 7900 rear hub and $190 for its 7900 front hub. Wow,
stupidity. Ultegra is $70 and $125. Campagnolo Record is $105 and
$170. DT Swiss 240 is $175 and $358. Chris King is $150 and $331.
Once again we see that Campagnolo is far and away the very best value
and of course the highest quality.
AMuzi
>>> For future reference, Shimano hubs are "cartridge bearings" in their
>>> entirely-- expedient, interchangeable, and basically disposable. It's
>>> cheaper for Shimano to do it that way than to buy in decent cartridges
>>> from SKF or the like.
> P. Chisholm wrote:
>> Not true. All the hubs I encounter,Deore, LX, STX, XT, XTR, DA,
>> Ultegra, 105, and the accociated wheels...are all cup and cone, Loose
>> balls.
Chalo wrote:
> Right. I'm saying a DA hub (for instance) is a cartridge bearing:
> Cheap (to manufacture) and disposable.
In their defense, Shimano has better cup & cone material and
better finish at each price level. They don't lubricate any
better than anyone else, although they do deliver with a
reasonable adjustment in an era where hardly anyone else
does that at all. These things lead riders (and bike
assemblers) to run them 'as received' without adding
adequate grease and that leads to predictable failures.
Given a modicum of attention when new, they are a great
product and quite durable.
Jobst Brandt
>> Back in the old days when freewheels were prevalent I was partial
>> to cartridge bearing hubs from SunTour (remember Superbe Pros?) and
>> Specialized. But these days no-one comes close to the durability
>> of a Shimano freehub body.
>> Who makes a decent freehub body with cartridge bearings that
>> outlasts or is a better value than ones from Shimano? I wouldn't
>> trust non-Shimano freehub bodies any farther than I can throw them.
> Shimano freehubs are too weak for some of my uses. There are
> stronger ones out there.
What fails on your Shimano hubs? I switched to them from Campagnolo
Record (freewheel) hubs because the axles (with large overhang) failed
often and took my right rear dropout with them a few of times. I use
Shimano 7-speed freehubs now without problem.
Jobst Brandt
AMuzi
If you just want "a cassette hub" there are always Sovos and
KingKong too. Way cheaper than Shimano.
Where cost is not the #1 constraining variable, Phil Wood
has a lot to offer.
russell...@yahoo.com
Shimano sells its Tiagra front for $23 and Tiagra rear for $30.
Shimano 105 front for $40 and 105 rear for $71. I suppose you can get
cheaper but for value, I suspect low cost Shimano stuff is very good
value.
http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/index.php?category=730
>
> Where cost is not the #1 constraining variable, Phil Wood
> has a lot to offer.
But at over $400 for a rear hub, how can you not look at cost? And as
for "a lot to offer", what does Phil Wood offer that Shimano and
Campagnolo do not? I have a friend with Campagnolo hubs from the
1970s that are running perfectly smoothly today. They've been
spinning smoothly for as long as Phil has been in business. Why pay
double the price or more for Phil? I have seveal sets of Campagnolo
hubs that keep going just fine with annual or less overhauls. I
suspect there are many Shimano hubs that continue to run just fine for
years and years without much trouble. I have a set on my touring
bike, Deore DX from early 1990s, that spin just fine. I suspect for
99.9999999% of the biking population, Campagnolo or Shimano hubs will
work perfectly for decades and decades. No need to pay double,
triple, quadruple, etc. the price for shiny boutique stuff.
AMuzi
Well, one happy customer at 350lbs comes to mind. We built
48h Phils for him 2 years ago. Tandems with 2 riders that
big, etc.
Sometimes Phil is the best choice overall. That said, I have
nothing against Shimano hubs generally, good product.
Jobst Brandt
>>>>> Who makes a decent freehub body with cartridge bearings that
>>>>> outlasts/ is a better value than ones from Shimano?
>>>> Phil Wood USA
>>> Phil Wood better value? Here are a couple pages from their
>>> website. I am not sure I am looking in the right spots because
>>> the price on the rear hub is over $400. This has to be some kind
>>> of error because I just cannot believe any bicyclist is stupid
>>> enough to blow that much money on a rear hub.
http://philwood.com/store/page17.html
http://philwood.com/store/page15.html
>>> Well maybe that $400 price is correct. I see Shitmano is charging
>>> $350 for its 7900 rear hub and $190 for its 7900 front hub. Wow,
>>> stupidity. Ultegra is $70 and $125. Campagnolo Record is $105
>>> and $170. DT Swiss 240 is $175 and $358. Chris King is $150 and
>>> $331. Once again we see that Campagnolo is far and away the very
>>> best value and of course the highest quality.
http://www.coloradocyclist.com/product/display/15202/all/
>> If you just want "a cassette hub" there are always Sovos and
>> KingKong too. Way cheaper than Shimano.
> Shimano sells its Tiagra front for $23 and Tiagra rear for $30.
> Shimano 105 front for $40 and 105 rear for $71. I suppose you can
> get cheaper but for value, I suspect low cost Shimano stuff is very
> good value.
http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/index.php?category=730
>> Where cost is not the #1 constraining variable, Phil Wood has a lot
>> to offer.
I suppose that's easy to say when selling such expensive hubs but what
they offer is not visible.
> But at over $400 for a rear hub, how can you not look at cost? And
> as for "a lot to offer", what does Phil Wood offer that Shimano and
> Campagnolo do not? I have a friend with Campagnolo hubs from the
> 1970s that are running perfectly smoothly today. They've been
> spinning smoothly for as long as Phil has been in business. Why pay
> double the price or more for Phil? I have several sets of
> Campagnolo hubs that keep going just fine with annual or less
> overhauls.
You didn't say what mode; hub these are and how many sprockets. My
Campagnolo hubs also spun smoothly after 40 years but they also broke
axles at a great rate (about 5000 miles) with a six speed FW.
> I suspect there are many Shimano hubs that continue to run just fine
> for years and years without much trouble. I have a set on my
> touring bike, Deore DX from early 1990s, that spin just fine. I
> suspect for 99.9999999% of the biking population, Campagnolo or
> Shimano hubs will work perfectly for decades and decades. No need
> to pay double, triple, quadruple, etc. the price for shiny boutique
> stuff.
From my experience, Campagnolo and Shimano are not the same in
reliability and I hate messing with screwed-on freewheels with
screwed-on sprockets, quite aside from broken axles.
I found no cross sectional drawings of any the mentioned hubs in which
spacing and axle overhang could be assessed. Exploded views are fine
for parts catalogs, but they do not reveal the mechanical integrity of
the product. In the days of yore, before Shimano began pandering to
people who could not understand a 2-D cross section drawing, offering
exploded 3-D pictures, from which assessing the probability of a
failure in 2-D was easy and convincing to me to switch to Shimano
cassette hubs.
From what I have seen of 3-D CAD systems, they were introduced because
many engineers could not think or understand 2-D, the medium from
which parts are made in today's NC machining. 3-D is nice fore
pictures, but it obscures physical dimensions that are the essence of
components, ones that are evident in 2-D.
Jobst Brandt
AMuzi
You're right.
Besides 4 links to my own pages(!), a search shows this:
http://www.philwood.com/support/service-your-fsc-cassette-hub/
Which is merely a photo series.
Here's the current Record hub design:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/CANEWHUB.JPG
with again perspective drawings but not in elevation style.
Jobst Brandt
>>>>>> Phil Wood USA
http://philwood.com/store/page17.html
http://philwood.com/store/page15.html
http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/index.php?category=730
http://www.philwood.com/support/service-your-fsc-cassette-hub/
If it weren't so dark, I could have made out what sort of ratchets are
used. To bad the lights weren't on. It seems the hub is held
together by the QR in use and comes apart by hand.
> Here's the current Record hub design:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/CANEWHUB.JPG
> with again perspective drawings but not in elevation style.
I assume this is Campagnolo, but not evident from the picture.
Oh for a 2-D cross section! But nay!
Jobst Brandt
landotter
Replaceable cartridge bearings. But I agree with you mostly. I've
killed a few hubs, all of them OEM cheap hubs, a couple were low end
Shimano. You can kill a decent Tiagra/Deore level hub just as easily
by riding it too tightly adjusted with no lube. However, that's when
the quality starts with Shimano if you do maintain the suckers. And
agreed on the price. Stupid cheap, and the freehubs are cheap if you
destroy one.
However, I also agree with Chalo, the rear hub is at the heart of a
bike, and really gets a lot of stress. I could easily see building up
a long distance touring bike with a Nashbar frame armed with a
cartridge bearing rear wheel. That's spending money where it
matters. ;-)
Chalo
>
> >> Chalo wrote:
> >>>
> >>> For future reference, Shimano hubs are "cartridge bearings" in their
> >>> entirely-- expedient, interchangeable, and basically disposable. It's
> >>> cheaper for Shimano to do it that way than to buy in decent cartridges
> >>> from SKF or the like.
> >
> > P. Chisholm wrote:
> >>
> >> Not true. All the hubs I encounter,Deore, LX, STX, XT, XTR, DA,
> >> Ultegra, 105, and the accociated wheels...are all cup and cone, Loose
> >> balls.
>
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> > Right. I'm saying a DA hub (for instance) is a cartridge bearing:
> > Cheap (to manufacture) and disposable.
>
> In their defense, Shimano has better cup & cone material and
> better finish at each price level. They don't lubricate any
> better than anyone else, although they do deliver with a
> reasonable adjustment in an era where hardly anyone else
> does that at all. These things lead riders (and bike
> assemblers) to run them 'as received' without adding
> adequate grease and that leads to predictable failures.
When I use a new cup and cone hub on my own bike, I usually swap in a
solid axle (if it has a hollow one) or a longer axle (if it is a BMX
hub) and that's my obligatory opportunity to get a look at the grease
shortage and correct it.
Most cup & cone hubs are easier to retrofit with different axles than
cartridge bearing hubs, and that is a plus.
> Given a modicum of attention when new, they are a great
> product and quite durable.
It's clear that Shimano hubs are unsurpassed among hubs with non-
replaceable bearings in their longevity and reliability. But there is
a reason that basically all rotating machinery designed to be even a
little bit repairable uses bearing elements that can be replaced in
their entirety. The cup and cone bearing is a fossil-- like the spoon
brake, or block chain, or cottered cranks.
Chalo
jim beam
reading comprehension problems jobst? [rhetorical]
N8N
now that I have had them apart I see what you mean, it looks like the
labyrinth seal precludes replacing the inner bearing races. However
I'm guessing that they hold up quite well for the mileage an average
bike sees (ISTR seeing a spec somewhere that the average bicycle is
ridden only a couple hundred miles in its entire lifetime? so pretty
much anyone posting here is way off the bell curve) so I can
understand why they did it that way.
I suppose a removeable labyrinth seal would have added way too much to
the cost of the unit for Shimano to make their price point. And of
course a pair of Chris King or Phil hubs would cost more than I paid
for my whole bike (probably including all maintenance and replacement
parts as well) so I will just "suffer" along with my Shimano stuff and
address problems as/if/when they arise.
nate
Helmut Springer
> it looks like the labyrinth seal precludes replacing the inner
> bearing races.
That can typically be removed, might be damaged while doing so
though.
The racing itself is pressed into the hub, not removeable.
--
MfG/Best regards
helmut springer panta rhei
russell...@yahoo.com
But do they use these cartridge bearing things because of cheapness,
not quality. Its much cheaper to just CNC a ledge into a machine/part
and slop/slap in a cartridge bearing. Afterall, Phil uses cartridge
bearings because he was too cheap, ignorant to make cup and cone
bearings in the early 1970s. His only way to make hubs was to get a
China made CNC machine and groove out a ledge to slap a cartridge
bearing. He did not have the money or sophistication to match
Campagnolo or Shimano for cup/cone bearings. And as for
adjustability, can't you get a cup/cone bearing to be smoother than a
cartridge bearing. With a cartridge you just tighten everything up.
If its right or wrong, thats the way it is. No adjustment to it. But
with a cup and cone, you can adjust it perfectly. For machine driven
bearings, being adjusted just right doesn't make any difference. Its
diesel/gas/electricity turning the bearings. But on a bicycle, its
muscle turning the bearings. Finer adjustment is appreciated.
>
> Chalo- Hide quoted text -
someone
The lack of adjustability in hubs will lead to loose bearings which
begets bicycle shimmy, with an unbalanced wheel.
RonSonic
It's an interesting engineering choice that sorta reflects the history of how
things were made during the last hundred years. You get to choose between the
earlier model of mass produced parts that require adjustment by hand to parts
that are dialed in by the magic of statistical process control.
Do you trust a guy with a wrench to get it right or do you trust a machine that
spits out millions of these things to get adjusted to the point that the guy
with a wrench is unneeded.
Welcome to the 21st Century.
--
Oh damn. There's that annoying blog. Again. http://dumbbikeblog.blogspot.com
someone
>
> It's an interesting engineering choice that sorta reflects the history of how
> things were made during the last hundred years. You get to choose between the
> earlier model of mass produced parts that require adjustment by hand to parts
> that are dialed in by the magic of statistical process control.
>
> Do you trust a guy with a wrench to get it right or do you trust a machine that
> spits out millions of these things to get adjusted to the point that the guy
> with a wrench is unneeded.
>
> Welcome to the 21st Century.
>
I trust myself. The design which has bridged 100 years evolved with
tolerances accepted a century ago. The final adjustment after a cup/
cone bearing has worn in a little brings the unit to perfection. The
cup/cone bearing is perfect for the job of bicycle wheel bearings.
Unless you cannot or will not use an oil can and make an initial
adjustment after a couple of thousand miles.
RonSonic
Actually agree with you on this. But if it was my factory and product line, I'm
not sure I'd trust the guys out in the field or the half-starved,
disease-riddled slave labor rejects I'd employ in the factory to get it right.
someone
Buy 'em from these guys. http://www.priyaindustries.com/hub.htm ??
landotter
I wanna know why cartridge bearing hubs are so bloody expensive. Why
doesn't someone like Formula put out some cartridge cassette hubs for
a hundred bux or so? They make track hubs with carts just fine. I
don't mind cup n' cone--but if I could get cart style for the same
price, duh. I've replaced my share of cones. PITA to source some of
them. A standard bearing, OTOH, no problem.
someone
supply/demand
RonSonic
I've got no experience with cartridge bearings on bikes except the disposable
bottom brackets. And those cost almost as much is not more than the lifetime cup
and spindle jobs.
landotter
I've never managed to wear out a square taper cartridge BB, but if I
did, they're only $20. I do need to repack the hubs on my city bike
twice a year. My other urban bike with cartridge hubs is smooth after
three years. If they do need replacing, it's about $20 for the bike.
No sweat.
Chalo
>
> I wanna know why cartridge bearing hubs are so bloody expensive. Why
> doesn't someone like Formula put out some cartridge cassette hubs for
> a hundred bux or so?
I got a Diatech rear cassette hub for sixty clams that was all
cartridge bearings-- 48 holes, too. It looked like it was made by
Sunrace, Formula or some other Taiwanese outfit that does similar
things. Unfortunately, I crunched it climbing a short rise after
about 500 miles of city riding. Now I use a Shimano tandem hub in its
stead, since the bike in question has a 9-speed setup. Otherwise I'd
just revert to a known reliable 7-speed freewheel layout with a fat-
axle hub.
The Shimano cassette spline is too small in diameter for the loads
imposed on it-- which is why tandemists and trials riders have to
replace theirs frequently. That basic shortcoming becomes critical
when you have to make room for cartridge bearings that carry their own
outer races with them. Good for Shimano; bad for you and me.
Some non-Shimano manufacturers need to band together and agree on a
stepped-spline cassette interface, with pawls in the big inner end and
support bearings in the small outer end. With some cleverness, a
compatible large diameter through-axle version could be devised that
moved a big bearing to the fat part of the cassette next to the
pawls. Shimano could thus be commanded to suck it.
Chalo