Shifting haters

[Frank Krygowski]

From Grant Petersen's article praising triple cranks:

"I don't understand shifting-haters. Shifting has been presented as a
technical complicated hassle, a necessity when you're desperate, and
tons of technology has been thrown at dumbing it down to — now — tapping
plastic to trigger some invisible electronic satan-worship shennanigans
in side a black box. Please quote me on that."

Happy to oblige, Grant!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

In my cycling lifetime I have had the following methods:
Shimano Di2 electronic STI
Shimano STI mechanical
Campagnolo Ergo mechanical
Shimano indexed bar end
Suntour friction downtube
Schwinn's brand or no name brand friction stem shifters

Di2 is the best. Not even close. STI and Ergo are a tie. Then indexed bar end shifters. Index with the clicks is great for shifting. Friction is last. Downtube or stem, both the worst of all the methods I have tried. Only way to regulate it is to turn the screw holding the lever in place until it is super tight. Then its a bear to move the lever and shift. But if its tight, then at least the derailleur stays in place and doesn't automatically shift down to the smallest cog. I never tried it but I suspect the Suntour ratchet clicky shifting models were good. They had clicks when you shifted instead of all friction. And would stay in place once you shifted them. You still had to know how far to move the lever but that's OK.

Forgot, I also rode a 3 speed bike with the click thumb shifter on the handlebar right by the grips. That was as easy and fast to shift as Ergo STI today.

Getting back to Grant Petersen, I also have triple cranksets with STI and Ergo mechanical shifters. Both of those have built in indexing clicks so they easily shift between chainrings. Both work great. My Shimano bar end shifters were for a triple too. They were fine too with the built in clicks when moving the lever.

[meff]

On 2022-01-14, Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> "I don't understand shifting-haters. Shifting has been presented as a
> technical complicated hassle, a necessity when you're desperate, and
> tons of technology has been thrown at dumbing it down to — now — tapping
> plastic to trigger some invisible electronic satan-worship shennanigans
> in side a black box. Please quote me on that."

I hate how unreliable shifters are. If you're the type that drives to
the start of the road race then sure that's fine, but when you're out
on a long tour and your shifter starts skipping and messing up your
climbs then it's only frustration. Di2 shifters are quite nice for
being fairly reliable, but in my experience barends are the cheapest
and most reliable.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/14/2022 7:13 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, January 14, 2022 at 5:50:04 PM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> From Grant Petersen's article praising triple cranks:
>>
>> "I don't understand shifting-haters. Shifting has been presented as a
>> technical complicated hassle, a necessity when you're desperate, and
>> tons of technology has been thrown at dumbing it down to — now — tapping
>> plastic to trigger some invisible electronic satan-worship shennanigans
>> in side a black box. Please quote me on that."
>>
>> Happy to oblige, Grant!
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
> In my cycling lifetime I have had the following methods:
> Shimano Di2 electronic STI
> Shimano STI mechanical
> Campagnolo Ergo mechanical
> Shimano indexed bar end
> Suntour friction downtube
> Schwinn's brand or no name brand friction stem shifters
>
> Di2 is the best. Not even close. STI and Ergo are a tie. Then indexed bar end shifters. Index with the clicks is great for shifting. Friction is last. Downtube or stem, both the worst of all the methods I have tried. Only way to regulate it is to turn the screw holding the lever in place until it is super tight. Then its a bear to move the lever and shift. But if its tight, then at least the derailleur stays in place and doesn't automatically shift down to the smallest cog. I never tried it but I suspect the Suntour ratchet clicky shifting models were good. They had clicks when you shifted instead of all friction. And would stay in place once you shifted them. You still had to know how far to move the lever but that's OK.

SunTour ratchet shifters are great. The ratchet counterbalances the
derailleur's spring force, so there's very little friction. I love 'em.
As Ph said, those are the ones God uses. :-)

ISTR once having some Shimano shifters that did a similar trick. They
had a spring built into the shift lever that balanced the derailleur
spring, so they too required far less lever force. Those might have been
originally installed on our tandem. But I don't recall hearing of them
anywhere.

> Forgot, I also rode a 3 speed bike with the click thumb shifter on the handlebar right by the grips. That was as easy and fast to shift as Ergo STI today.

Yep, three speeds were the original index shifters!


--
- Frank Krygowski

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

But I think with 3 speed shifters, you had to stop pedaling to shift. To allow the cable to pull everything into place inside the hub. Couldn't be pedaling and have moving parts when shifting. Maybe Andy can tell us. Did you have to stop pedaling to shift a 3 speed bike?

[Sir Ridesalot]

IIRC, you had to back pedal in order to shift a 3-3peed. When people used to shifting a 3-speed got a derailleur bike and back pedaled when shifting often had nasty things happen to their drivetrain.

Cheers

[Lou Holtman]

After 8 years of use of my cross bike in the most terrible conditions (took that photo from by friends bike, mine looked the same):
https://photos.app.goo.gl/NJqN4eDVHTtYmBR37
with a rude cleaning regime (car wash) I have to replace the lower headset bearing, I bled thy hydraulic disks brakes for the first time, I replaced the chain every year and my cassette every 2-3 years, a couple of brake pads but I never touched or adjusted my Di2 shifting after the initial setup.

Happy to oblige Grant.

Lou

[Axel Reichert]

"russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:

> But I think with 3 speed shifters, you had to stop pedaling to shift.
> To allow the cable to pull everything into place inside the hub.
> Couldn't be pedaling and have moving parts when shifting.

In theory, yes. In practice, some unloading for a split second is
sufficient. Confirmed on my 6-speed Brompton (2 rear cogs plus 3-speed
hub, Sturmey-Archer). Coming from a derailleur background was no big
deal, it is just that the unloading has to be more pronounced and
slightly longer. Other hubs behave similar to my knowledge.

Of course, it will not shift under load (20 % grade, out of the saddle),
which is, I believe, what killed the Rohloff hub in the MTB scene. But
neither will you be able to do a shift on the front ring with a
derailleur system under these conditions, because the tension in the
chain stiffens it dramatically. Shifting on the rear under full pedal
load is no problem, because there is almost zero tension in the chain on
its way back to the crank.

Best regards

Axel

[Lou Holtman]

On Saturday, January 15, 2022 at 10:54:47 AM UTC+1, Axel Reichert wrote:


> Of course, it will not shift under load (20 % grade, out of the saddle),
> which is, I believe, what killed the Rohloff hub in the MTB scene. But
> neither will you be able to do a shift on the front ring with a
> derailleur system under these conditions, because the tension in the
> chain stiffens it dramatically.

Di2 comes very close. I don't know out of the saddle in the saddle I could always shift in front under full tension. It makes an awful noise and I don't recommend it but it shifts.

Lou

[Roger Merriman]

I don’t have much love for Triples at least with 3/9 set up seem to spend a
lot of time shifting between. Hence once the old MTB was retired to commute
duties I rapidly shifted (sorry) to a 1/9 system since it’s a flat commute.

My Gravel and MTB are 2/10 set ups which generally are much less bothered
about chain line and thus less shift happy.

One less obvious advantage of having double or triple off road is if on
unfamiliar trails, a sudden steep ramp, you can drop to a lower ring, as
that will drop 2/3 gears and hopefully give one the gearing to clear it.

Clearly others are gearing range or tight clusters if that’s your bag.

Roger Merriman.

[AMuzi]

On 1/14/2022 9:46 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, January 14, 2022 at 8:01:25 PM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 1/14/2022 7:13 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Friday, January 14, 2022 at 5:50:04 PM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> From Grant Petersen's article praising triple cranks:
>>>>
>>>> "I don't understand shifting-haters. Shifting has been presented as a
>>>> technical complicated hassle, a necessity when you're desperate, and

>>>> tons of technology has been thrown at dumbing it down to — now — tapping

They are simple planetary systems with a sliding clutch (or
on a Shimano type F & similar, a sliding planet cage) so,
yes, one need ease up on the pedal pressure momentarily to
shift. Riders learn that quickly without difficulty, since
the Sturmey X gearbox of 1902.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[William Crowell]

But using friction shifters on the downtube builds character.

[Tom Kunich]

Do you have a full suspension cross bike or was that picture only a indication of the conditions?

[Tom Kunich]

I don't like triples either. No need with a compact and 32 tooth. I have climbed 16% with that. In fact much steeper but thankfully that is rare and usually short. Although I did a half mile of extremely painful 23% on an organized Century.

[Tom Kunich]

On Saturday, January 15, 2022 at 6:38:00 AM UTC-8, William Crowell wrote:
>
> But using friction shifters on the downtube builds character.

Yeh Bill and all pained expression character.

[Lou Holtman]

That was my friends FS ATB. I was on my cross bike and it looked the same. If we have much rain in November we ride the whole winter off road in similar conditions. Last winter was relative dry, this winter is f*cking wet.

Lou

[Roger Merriman]

Was a wet winter in the uk, last year at least for riding at least managed
to loose the derailleur on both the Gravel and MTB last winter!

The photo looks fairly normal for winter/autumn but uk is a soggy place!

Roger Merriman.

[William Crowell]

Was that Slug Gulch Road on the El Dorado Century, Tom?

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/15/2022 4:54 AM, Axel Reichert wrote:
> "russell...@yahoo.com" <ritzann...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> But I think with 3 speed shifters, you had to stop pedaling to shift.
>> To allow the cable to pull everything into place inside the hub.
>> Couldn't be pedaling and have moving parts when shifting.
>
> In theory, yes. In practice, some unloading for a split second is
> sufficient.

I agree. The bike I use for quick, short utility rides has a
Sturmey-Archer three speed. The necessary reduction in pedal force is so
easy and quick I don't even think about it.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Merriman]

That is the point isn’t it, as cassettes got wider range, the need for a
triple to keep the gearing range wide reduced.

Roger Merriman.

[Tom Kunich]

Well, I did assume that a CX bike was a CX bike. But after you saying CX and then showing that picture of a full suspension (and about as muddy as possible) I was wondering if in conditions like that people use full suspension to ride CX.

[Lou Holtman]

Well we don’t ride cycle cross races, we just ride off road on the trails here and only in the winter. Most people ride ATB and I am the exception on my cross bike. I hate ATB’s. Too heavy and too complicated especially the FS although the hard tail 29 ers are most used now among the ATB riders. I owned a FS like shown in the picture and indeed it was a PIA in those conditions. I sold that bike after not using it for 2 years.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

I had a Trek HiFi that was an absolute wonderful performing MTB. But as you say, far, far too heavy for my tastes and I returned to CX bikes. My back is almost recovered and that will give me that ability to try the Cannondale again but you can bet I will reduce tire pressure 20 lbs. And look a bit closer at position. There must be something wrong there. It has all the same measurements as my road bikes but perhaps a straighter seat tube?

[Joy Beeson]

On Sat, 15 Jan 2022 06:37:58 -0800 (PST), William Crowell
<retrog...@gmail.com> wrote:

> But using friction shifters on the downtube builds character.

How can something so easy build character?

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

[Sir Ridesalot]

A lot of people find it quite hard to shift properly with downtube shifters.

As per the title of this thread, "shifting haters", then those people might be far better off riding a single speed. ;<)

Cheers

[John B.]

Actually it is likely that learning to ride a bicycle (without the
training wheels) is a far more complex and difficult task then down
tube shifter could ever be (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

Every technology has it features and foibles. Learning to
shift one format or another isn't daunting but does require
some initial familiarization, not unlike standard auto shift:

https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/local-news/cleveland-metro/cleveland-woman-becomes-victim-of-failed-carjacking-attempt-in-her-own-front-yard

[Lou Holtman]

It is like my HP11C RPN calculator. People try to borrow it while standing next to my desk, look at it and lay it back on my desk. Never lost it in 40 years. ;-)

Lou

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

ah....the RPN calculators....Affording one was half the battle, figuring out how to use it was the other half.

[AMuzi]

>> It is like my HP11C RPN calculator. People try to borrow it while standing next to my desk, look at it and lay it back on my desk. Never lost it in 40 years. ;-)
>>
>> Lou
>
>
> ah....the RPN calculators....Affording one was half the battle, figuring out how to use it was the other half.
>

No one borrows my K+E slide rule either.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/17/2022 9:36 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>
>
> It is like my HP11C RPN calculator. People try to borrow it while standing next to my desk, look at it and lay it back on my desk. Never lost it in 40 years. ;-)
>

I very sadly lost an HP48G when it fell out of my unzipped briefcase on
a bike commute to work. I never got it back, despite putting up posters
along the route. But I'm sure whoever found it had no idea how to use it.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

When one of my brothers was in engineering school, I bought
him an expensive at the time HP calculator which of course
escaped out into America a few months later. Ouch.

Anyway, your model may be had in new, rebuilt or used:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=HP48G+calculator&_sacat=0

[Tom Kunich]

These things had a surprisingly short lifespan and H-P service told me that it was better to throw them out and buy a new one than have them repaired.

[John B.]

Yes, I tried one, belonging to a co-worker and I guess my brain
doesn't work the way that HP does. Enter 1,3, divide doesn't seem
logical, to me anyway (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Years and years and years ago I read an article about slide rules and
it mentioned that at Wright-Paterson Air Base they had built a "slide
rule" that was something like 6 feet long, kept in a temperature
controlled room it was used for very exact calculations.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

After that sad incident, a good friend gave me an almost identical one
completely free. I used it extensively until I retired, and used it
moderately since.

About a year or two ago, it came down with a problem: dodgy contacts to
the keyboard. The workaround was simple but annoying. If I pressed down
on the housing just below the screen, keystrokes worked. One fellow HP
guy said "Cool! It's like a secret handshake!" But it was an irritation.
And disassembly to affect a permanent solution is very, very tricky.

Ultimately, a very classy gentleman on this forum sold me a very nice
replacement. So now I have two, one handshake-protected, the other perfect.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

It took me about three minutes to get used to RPN. After that, it was no
contest. I find it much, much more efficient for complex calculations
than standard algebraic notation.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

It wasn't that I couldn't use it was simply that I don't think of
equations in that manner. 1/3rd of something is that thing divided
into three parts, not that thing and three and divide.
And, lets face it, RPN is structured the way machines, i.e., computers
do math. Not the way that humans do math (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 16 Jan 2022 22:45:18 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
<i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

>A lot of people find it quite hard to shift properly with downtube shifters.

I learned to ride using friction shifters, when there was little else
available that was afordable. Not knowing any better, I became fairly
proficient using them:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/Miyata-610.JPG>
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/Trek-1400.JPG>
Note the downtube shifters. Learning to overshift and release back
slightly to take up the backlash and cable "stretch" was a bit tricky,
but eventually became instinctive.


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Lou Holtman]

On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 12:27:42 AM UTC+1, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Jan 2022 06:36:08 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman

> Enter 1,3, divide doesn't seem
> logical, to me anyway (:-)

Off course not, that is already wrong ;-)

Lou

[Lou Holtman]

The first generation are extremely durably. Got mine in 1981-1982 and it is still going strong. After I retire I will take it home. The latter models were no better than the normal Chinese crap.

Lou

[Lou Holtman]

It is superior in case of complex calculation. There was a reason they introduced brackets in the non RPN calculators.

Lou

[Lou Holtman]

The noise was your feedback to back up the overshift. Quite a few people didn't bother and you had to ride behind someone with a noisy drivetrain.

Lou

[AMuzi]

On 1/17/2022 11:21 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Jan 2022 22:45:18 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
> <i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>> A lot of people find it quite hard to shift properly with downtube shifters.
>
> I learned to ride using friction shifters, when there was little else
> available that was afordable. Not knowing any better, I became fairly
> proficient using them:
> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/Miyata-610.JPG>
> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/Trek-1400.JPG>
> Note the downtube shifters. Learning to overshift and release back
> slightly to take up the backlash and cable "stretch" was a bit tricky,
> but eventually became instinctive.
>
>

Trek 1400 friction?
Trek's first aluminum model, 2000, was in 1985. Later
aluminum USA models were all index shift including 1400.

[Wolfgang Strobl]

Am Mon, 17 Jan 2022 21:21:04 -0800 schrieb Jeff Liebermann
<je...@cruzio.com>:

>On Sun, 16 Jan 2022 22:45:18 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
><i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>>A lot of people find it quite hard to shift properly with downtube shifters.
>
>I learned to ride using friction shifters, when there was little else
>available that was afordable.

I learned to ride on a 24"-bicycle using a three-speed hub from Fichtel
& Sachs, as a child, at the beginning of the sixties.

<https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torpedo-Freilaufnabe>
operated by a trigger like this one
<https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Trigger515.jpg>

>Not knowing any better, I became fairly
>proficient using them:
><http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/Miyata-610.JPG>
><http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/Trek-1400.JPG>
>Note the downtube shifters. Learning to overshift and release back
>slightly to take up the backlash and cable "stretch" was a bit tricky,
>but eventually became instinctive.

In 1978, I bought a Peugeot PR 60/L
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/pr60ll.jpg>
followed by a Panasonic PR3000 in 1995 and a custom made road bike in
early 2010 (3x10 Ultegra 6703).

PR3000 in 1995:

<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/bilder/Alltagsraeder/images/pr3000_1995.jpg>


Both the Peugeot and the PR3000 have downtube shifters. Here is a
picture of the Peugeot from spring 2000, parked in my office, after
riding to work.

<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/bilder/Alltagsraeder/images/dscf1057.jpg>
I used the Peugeot instead of the Panasonic on that day, before giving
it to one of my sons, in order to check out some maintenance work.

The PR3000 is now used mostly for occasional workouts on an inhouse
trainer and as a backup, so I'm still able to use the downtube shifters
without any difficulties.

Shifting gears on the Peugeot, which we don't have anymore, wouldn't be
as easy, because of pure friction shifting, it was built long before
hyperglide or indexed shifting even existed.


--
Wir danken für die Beachtung aller Sicherheitsbestimmungen

[Tom Kunich]

As I moved from company to company each would often assign me an H-P RPN pocket computer. They would never ask for them back since the technology was moving forward so rapidly. A couple of years ago I went through a rather large stack of them and paid a lot of money for new batteries only to discover one of the lot still operating. I lost track of that thing when the desktop Windows 10 scientific calculator is almost as good. Good enough anyway.

[Jeff Liebermann]

You might be right, but as I recall, it was a friction shifter. It's
been too many years since I rode it. I don't have a clue as to the
year. There's was only a "D" ring to adjust the pressure. I no
longer have the bicycle (the frame was too small for me) so I can't
easily check the shifters. Enlarging the photo, it looks like the
rear derailleur is Shimano 105. The front shifters are something like
these:
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/203792913384>
I don't recall how many speeds and can't easily count the sprokets
from my photo.

I did some Googling and found a 1991 Trek 1400 with friction shifters:
<https://bikeindex.org/bikes/663207>
"Shift And Brake Lever Down-tube friction (non-index)
shifters. Bright silver Dynasys ()"

Incidentally, this was the bicycle that gave me trouble from my toes
hitting the trailing edge of the front wheel in a turn.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 18 Jan 2022 06:27:35 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Yes, I tried one, belonging to a co-worker and I guess my brain
>doesn't work the way that HP does. Enter 1,3, divide doesn't seem
>logical, to me anyway (:-)

Try instead: 1 Enter 3 Divide

RPM works nicely for me because all I need to remember is to enter the
number first and then what I want to do with it (add subtract multiply
divide). Algebraic wants me to decide what I want to do with the
number before I enter it. That's not the way I think which is why I
prefer RPM notation. However, on single line display RPM calculators,
I still have problems remembering what I pushed into the stack
(sequentially accessed memory). I also learned algebraic before I
learned RPM, making unlearning algebraic.

HP tried the solve the problem by introducing the HP35S, which does
either algebraic and RPM:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP_35s>
<https://support.hp.com/us-en/document/c01748598>
I have one and often use it (in PRN mode) but prefer my HP41CX.

Last summer, when we had the CZU fire, I had to evacuate for about 20
days. I took most of what I thought was important, but forgot to
bring my HP41CX calculator. I was diffidently lost that I went to
Office Max and bought a cheap algebraic calculator to use during the
evacuation. It took me about a week to remember how to use an ALG
calculator.

I used to do HP calculator repairs on the side. I think I have about
40 assorted HP calculators in my collection (not counting broken or
parts calculators). The build quality on the early LED calculators
are superb. I especially like the gold plated PC boards. All my
early LED HP calculators still work. Somewhere along the line,
quality started going downhill in an effort to compete with cheaper
calculators. The result is some calculators were almost impossible to
repair.

HP Museum:
<https://hpmuseum.org>

[AMuzi]

The red bike at bikeindex is almost all not-original parts.

Model 1400 was only 1989 and later and there were no
friction (factory) road bikes in 1989:
http://vintage-trek.com/model_numbers1.htm

[Lou Holtman]

The Windows, MacOs, Android or iOS calculator can do the same but I still prefer my dedicate calculator instead of an app.

Lou

[Duane]

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Jan 2022 06:27:35 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Yes, I tried one, belonging to a co-worker and I guess my brain
>> doesn't work the way that HP does. Enter 1,3, divide doesn't seem
>> logical, to me anyway (:-)
>
> Try instead: 1 Enter 3 Divide
>
> RPM works nicely for me because all I need to remember is to enter the
> number first and then what I want to do with it (add subtract multiply
> divide). Algebraic wants me to decide what I want to do with the
> number before I enter it. That's not the way I think which is why I
> prefer RPM notation. However, on single line display RPM calculators,
> I still have problems remembering what I pushed into the stack
> (sequentially accessed memory). I also learned algebraic before I
> learned RPM, making unlearning algebraic.
>

Not to sound to ignorant but don’t you mean RPN as in reverse Polish
notation?

<snip>

[AMuzi]

> Not to sound to ignorant but don’t you mean RPN as in reverse Polish
> notation?
>
> <snip>
>

Mr Krygowski finds it intuitive.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Many people do, though not me. I can do it, I just don't like it. Too many years of PEMDAS.

[William Crowell]

On Sunday, January 16, 2022 at 8:16:15 PM UTC-8, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Jan 2022 06:37:58 -0800 (PST), William Crowell
> <retrog...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > But using friction shifters on the downtube builds character.
> How can something so easy build character?
>
> --
> Joy Beeson
> joy beeson at centurylink dot net
> http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

How can something so easy build character?

It depends on how much character you had in the first place; i.e., what is the starting point?

[Frank Krygowski]

Absolutely. You put in one number. "Enter" serves to tell the computer
that there are no more digits in that number.

Then you put in the second, and tell the calculator what to do with them.

For long, complex calculations (the kind requiring multiple levels of
parentheses with algebraic calculators) you proceed just as you would if
doing them by hand - i.e. you work from the inside out.

For those, you sometimes have to begin another phase by "Enter"ing
another number. That bumps your previous result up on the stack. In
practice, the previous result you need is almost always just above the
current spot on the stack. The process flows very smoothly.

I've taught hundreds of students how to efficiently use calculators. For
simple calculations, there's not much difference. But for calculations
like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Mises_yield_criterion
RPN is far more efficient, far less error-prone.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

Oops. It's RPN, not RPM. I've been having a bit of a memory problem
recently. Not sure what's causing it. Last time, it was a bad
prescription causing a drug overdose. No clue yet this time. The
major problem was failing to remember dates and numbers correctly. I
try to double check those, but never considered that an acronym would
be involved.

Thanks for catching my mistake.

[Tom Kunich]

Typos, most especially those that are very easy to commit such as RPM rather than the discussed RPN aren't worth being corrected.

[Jeff Liebermann]

>Many people do, though not me. I can do it, I just don't like it. Too many years of PEMDAS.

If you can function in both metric and imperial units, you should be
able to switch back and forth between algebraic and RPN(1) notation on
a calculator. If I can do it, anyone can. (How's that for arrogance?)
However, there are problems. I can switch methods on a calculator,
but can't do it when I'm trying to do math in my head or on paper.
When I do the math in my head, it's a visual representation of what I
would scribble on paper.

There are 3 systems of writing arithmetic expressions on paper:
<https://www.tutorialspoint.com/prefix-and-postfix-expressions-in-data-structure>
Algebraic is infix, RPN is postfix, and Polish Notation (not reversed)
is prefix. Computers don't really like algebraic (infix) notation:
"...it is not a very efficient way to design an algorithm
or program to parse infix notations. Instead, these infix
notations are first converted into either postfix or prefix
notations and then computed."

We tend to use whatever we learn FIRST. Undoing good or bad habits is
difficult. For example, I'm normally right handed. When I was about
10 years old, I found a bow and some arrows and proceeded to teach
myself how to use them (by watching westerns on TV). The problem was
that I learned using a left handed bow. When I entered college, I
took an archery class. That's when I discovered that I was doing it
all wrong for the previous 9 years. Attempts to switch to right
handed failed and continue to fail to this day.

I repeated the above mistake when I salvaged a free bicycle at age 16.
It was in bad shape, so I first tore it apart and cleaned everything.
When I re-assembled it, I goofed and reversed the front and rear brake
levers. I rode it to skool like that for about 6 months. When I
discovered the error, and switched the brake levers to the correct
positions, it took me a week or two to adjust.


(1) I initially typed RPM instead of RPN. I just added RPN into my
spelling chequer. Hopefully, that will help until I deal with my
problem.

[Jeff Liebermann]

I found some more photos of White Trek 1400 bicycles:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=1989+trek+1400+white+friction&tbm=isch>
I went through the first 20 pages and didn't find a match that
described the type of shifter. I did find several 1990 models, with
indexed shifting. For example:
<https://www.facebook.com/RLBcycle/posts/this-is-a-classic-1990-trek-1400-racing-road-bike-made-in-usa-rare-small-frame-m/1055519977954536/>
It's quite possible that the 1989 and 1990 models are similar.

>Model 1400 was only 1989 and later and there were no
>friction (factory) road bikes in 1989:
>http://vintage-trek.com/model_numbers1.htm

"89, intense blue with white decals, also white with red decals"
More 1989 info, but nothing on the shifters:
<http://www.vintage-trek.com/Trekpromoa.htm#pg19>
I couldn't find a 1989 Trek road bicycle catalog.

As I previous mumbled, you might be right. You know far more about
such bicycles than I. However, I still recall that it used friction
shifters. If I had to make a determination at this point (to save
time), I would probably concede that it probably used indexed shifting
and that my memory is faulty. I've sent an email to the father of the
current owner of the bicycle for a determination.

Thanks for the likely correction.

[Tom Kunich]

I removed the Campy Centaur 10 speed levers from the Douglas Vector and installed the Record 10 speed first generation levers. I had forgotten how that far more direct cable routing made the shifting absolutely effortless. And I cabled it with new Campagnolo cables so that they won't stretch. So they should remain in perfect order for the new owner. I took it out on a 25 miler before relisting it in its new configuration. I was pretty impressed since the Douglas is an extremely smooth riding bike and the Record 10 speeds gives you enough.