white thing on rim around spoke holes/nipples?

[Emanuel Berg]

What is it and how do you remove it? Only from
a very good position I got it away with a wire
brush...

--
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic
- so far: 55 Blogomatic articles -

[John B.]

On Wed, 29 Jun 2016 06:05:50 +0200, Emanuel Berg
<embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:

>What is it and how do you remove it? Only from
>a very good position I got it away with a wire
>brush...

No Picture?

It might be a grommet, which reinforces the spoke hole, although they
are metal and I don't think you could remove one with a wire brush.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:

>> What is it and how do you remove it?
>> Only from a very good position I got it away
>> with a wire brush...
>
> No Picture?
>
> It might be a grommet, which reinforces the
> spoke hole, although they are metal and
> I don't think you could remove one with
> a wire brush.

It is not supposed to be there. It is like
rust, only white and much more difficult to
remove. Picture: tomorrow :)

[John B.]

On Wed, 29 Jun 2016 08:14:56 +0200, Emanuel Berg
<embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:

>John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:
>
>>> What is it and how do you remove it?
>>> Only from a very good position I got it away
>>> with a wire brush...
>>
>> No Picture?
>>
>> It might be a grommet, which reinforces the
>> spoke hole, although they are metal and
>> I don't think you could remove one with
>> a wire brush.
>
>It is not supposed to be there. It is like
>rust, only white and much more difficult to
>remove. Picture: tomorrow :)

Aluminum corrosion is white.
--
cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

On 6/29/2016 1:14 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:
>
>>> What is it and how do you remove it?
>>> Only from a very good position I got it away
>>> with a wire brush...
>>
>> No Picture?
>>
>> It might be a grommet, which reinforces the
>> spoke hole, although they are metal and
>> I don't think you could remove one with
>> a wire brush.
>
> It is not supposed to be there. It is like
> rust, only white and much more difficult to
> remove. Picture: tomorrow :)
>

It's aluminum oxide, a corroded residue which was once
metal, but now at a lower energy state.
Looks like this:

http://www.amteccorrosion.co.uk/Aluminium%20Pics/Tank_corrosion_02%5B1%5D.jpg

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Emanuel Berg]

AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> writes:

> It's aluminum oxide, a corroded residue which
> was once metal, but now at a lower
> energy state.

The aluminum of the rim reacts to the spoke
nipples in time? Or is it sensitive to dirt and
moisture that just sticks in and around the
holes and nipples?

What do you do about it?

Keep clean?

The wire brush worked but not without effort
and I could see that in the nooks the aluminum
oxide remained...

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 29 Jun 2016 06:05:50 +0200, Emanuel Berg
<embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:

>What is it and how do you remove it? Only from
>a very good position I got it away with a wire
>brush...

The white thing? That's the price tag. I'm not sure why someone
would put it around a spoke hole, but it should come off with some
solvent or "Goop Off" oil. A wire brush will scrape off the surface
anodizing from the rim, and damage the rim finish. If you must
scrape, use a soft plastic or soft boar bristle hair brush.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Emanuel Berg]

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> writes:

>> What is it and how do you remove it?
>> Only from a very good position I got it away
>> with a wire brush...
>
> The white thing? That's the price tag.
> I'm not sure why someone would put it around
> a spoke hole, but it should come off with
> some solvent or "Goop Off" oil. A wire brush
> will scrape off the surface anodizing from
> the rim, and damage the rim finish. If you
> must scrape, use a soft plastic or soft boar
> bristle hair brush.

I have the common hair, nylon, brass, and steel
brushes, with steel wool, Svinto, and emery.
Perhaps just cloth and alcohol can take some of
it away long with some dirt...

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 30 Jun 2016 00:51:05 +0200, Emanuel Berg
<embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:

>Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> writes:
>
>>> What is it and how do you remove it?
>>> Only from a very good position I got it away
>>> with a wire brush...
>>
>> The white thing? That's the price tag.
>> I'm not sure why someone would put it around
>> a spoke hole, but it should come off with
>> some solvent or "Goop Off" oil. A wire brush
>> will scrape off the surface anodizing from
>> the rim, and damage the rim finish. If you
>> must scrape, use a soft plastic or soft boar
>> bristle hair brush.

>I have the common hair, nylon, brass, and steel
>brushes, with steel wool, Svinto, and emery.
>Perhaps just cloth and alcohol can take some of
>it away long with some dirt...

So much for my humor.

As others have mentioned, you may have some aluminum oxide corrosion.
There are a variety of mechanisms that will attack aluminum, including
some "cleaners". Galvanic action will also cause corrosion such as
between a brass spoke nipple and the aluminum rim:
<http://www.totalmateria.com/page.aspx?ID=CheckArticle&site=ktn&NM=187>
I can't tell from here which one has trashed your rim. A photo would
be useful. You may need a microscope to see any cracks. If the spoke
hole looks damaged, the spoke nipple might rip through the enlarged
and weakened hole when put under tension.

You might also want to take a look inside:
<http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5470/8944382412_857779a6b7_k.jpg>

The problem is that to produce aluminum oxide, some aluminum must
disappear to produce the oxide. That results in pitting, cracking,
and weakening of the aluminum. If you actually manage to clean off
the oxidation, you'll probably find a damaged surface.

Scroll down to the 3 photos of damaged rims:
<http://www.totalmateria.com/page.aspx?ID=CheckArticle&site=ktn&NM=187>

As for cleaning, there are a variety of potions that claim to work:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=aluminum+oxide+cleaner>
Most contain phosphoric acid. For example:
<http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/s_trmt_alum/technical-data/Loctite-Aluminum-Jelly.htm>
<http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/alumiprep.php>
If you just want to clean off the oxide crust, acetic acid, in the
form of white vinegar should work. However, it's not a very strong
acid, takes a long time, and will ruin a rim with polished aluminum
finish.

[John Doe]

Emanuel Berg <embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:

> John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:
>
>>> What is it and how do you remove it?
>>> Only from a very good position I got it away
>>> with a wire brush...
>>
>> No Picture?
>>
>> It might be a grommet, which reinforces the
>> spoke hole, although they are metal and
>> I don't think you could remove one with
>> a wire brush.
>
> It is not supposed to be there. It is like
> rust, only white and much more difficult to
> remove. Picture: tomorrow :)

Where's the picture?

[John B.]

On Wed, 29 Jun 2016 23:09:26 +0200, Emanuel Berg
<embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:

>AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> writes:
>
>> It's aluminum oxide, a corroded residue which
>> was once metal, but now at a lower
>> energy state.
>
>The aluminum of the rim reacts to the spoke
>nipples in time? Or is it sensitive to dirt and
>moisture that just sticks in and around the
>holes and nipples?
>
>What do you do about it?
>
>Keep clean?
>
>The wire brush worked but not without effort
>and I could see that in the nooks the aluminum
>oxide remained...

Aluminum alone is essentially non-corrosive, but in the presence of
many other metals, and an "electrolyte", it forms a tiny battery and
results in galvanic corrosion. The only complete solution is to
insulate the two metals.

Electrolyte is any liquid that will carry an electric current. Pure
water is not but water with almost any chemical, commonly salt, is.

Having said that in actual practice if you clean the corrosion as
much as possible and put a drop of oil or perhaps a smear of grease on
it will likely be sufficient for some years.

One site recommends Marvel Mystery Oil co clean aluminum corrosion.
But I don't know whether it is available world wide.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ-uf4YyeHI

The people that make Naval Jelly (to clean rust) also, I believe, make
an Aluminum Jelly to clean aluminum, but unless you are prepared to
dismount the tire and rim tape so that the wheel can be really cleaned
I think I'd be reluctant to use harsh chemicals.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/29/2016 6:26 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Jun 2016 06:05:50 +0200, Emanuel Berg
> <embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:
>
>> What is it and how do you remove it? Only from
>> a very good position I got it away with a wire
>> brush...
>
> The white thing? That's the price tag. I'm not sure why someone
> would put it around a spoke hole, but it should come off with some
> solvent or "Goop Off" oil. A wire brush will scrape off the surface
> anodizing from the rim, and damage the rim finish. If you must
> scrape, use a soft plastic or soft boar bristle hair brush.

Is there any chance he's talking about some sort of rim tape or rim strip?


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Emanuel Berg]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net>
writes:

> Is there any chance he's talking about some
> sort of rim tape or rim strip?

The rim tape doesn't seem to be affected.

As I understood it from AMuzi and John B., the
nipples are brass, the rim is aluminum, add
water with in particular salt to form an
electrolyte, this turns the whole thing into
a *battery* (!) with galvanic corrosion where
the aluminum looses energy and turns into
something else (?) - the white stuff.

Question 1: Right?

Question 2: Why are the nipples brass? Is that
cheaper and/or more formable than aluminum?

[AMuzi]

On 6/30/2016 6:08 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net>
> writes:
>
>> Is there any chance he's talking about some
>> sort of rim tape or rim strip?
>
> The rim tape doesn't seem to be affected.
>
> As I understood it from AMuzi and John B., the
> nipples are brass, the rim is aluminum, add
> water with in particular salt to form an
> electrolyte, this turns the whole thing into
> a *battery* (!) with galvanic corrosion where
> the aluminum looses energy and turns into
> something else (?) - the white stuff.
>
> Question 1: Right?
>
> Question 2: Why are the nipples brass? Is that
> cheaper and/or more formable than aluminum?
>

1. Maybe galvanic corrosion with the nipple, maybe with a
steel rim insert. But corrosion nonetheless.

2. Well, the wheelbuilder's reasons may include strength,
cost or 'because we have brass nipples'. As with #1 above,
here we are, it's corroded for whatever reason. Your problem
is more whether to ignore it, clean it or replace it I think.

[John B.]

On Wed, 29 Jun 2016 18:43:23 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 30 Jun 2016 00:51:05 +0200, Emanuel Berg
><embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:
>
>>Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> writes:
>>
>>>> What is it and how do you remove it?
>>>> Only from a very good position I got it away
>>>> with a wire brush...
>>>
>>> The white thing? That's the price tag.
>>> I'm not sure why someone would put it around
>>> a spoke hole, but it should come off with
>>> some solvent or "Goop Off" oil. A wire brush
>>> will scrape off the surface anodizing from
>>> the rim, and damage the rim finish. If you
>>> must scrape, use a soft plastic or soft boar
>>> bristle hair brush.
>
>>I have the common hair, nylon, brass, and steel
>>brushes, with steel wool, Svinto, and emery.
>>Perhaps just cloth and alcohol can take some of
>>it away long with some dirt...
>
>So much for my humor.

No! We read it and we smiled, gently. And then went on :-)

cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Thu, 30 Jun 2016 13:08:18 +0200, Emanuel Berg
<embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:

>Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net>
>writes:
>
>> Is there any chance he's talking about some
>> sort of rim tape or rim strip?
>
>The rim tape doesn't seem to be affected.
>
>As I understood it from AMuzi and John B., the
>nipples are brass, the rim is aluminum, add
>water with in particular salt to form an
>electrolyte, this turns the whole thing into
>a *battery* (!) with galvanic corrosion where
>the aluminum looses energy and turns into
>something else (?) - the white stuff.
>
>Question 1: Right?

Answer: Probably

>
>Question 2: Why are the nipples brass? Is that
>cheaper and/or more formable than aluminum?

Answer: A: Brass has a higher sheer modulus ( stronger threads) than
aluminum
B: It has worked perfectly well for a hundred tears or more.
except in rare cases.

--
cheers,

John B.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

https://www.google.com/#q=practical+machinist+galvanic+corrosion

the practical machinist is a resource for berg.

uh the white oxide or OH compound should not be on a bicycle rim. The rim should be made of an aluminum type not subject to common galvanic corrosion.

aluminum instantly forms AlO aluminum oxide thus soldering it uses a special rod.

I have an older glasses frame of solderable aluminum...type 2 ? or 3 ?
very rare. Its hidden lest the optical vampires come by...

that white is INORGANIC and so does not as may try esp with the fork jamming problem using organic solvents from petroleum sources.

Phosphoric acid is most commonly used metallic cleaner

linseed oil on spoke threads insulates two metals from passing ions back and forth like in a battery...galvanic corrosion....and gives a low torque hold in the threads

[Tosspot]

I do have the same 'problem' on my commuter. Most likely due to salt in
the winter. But, well, it is the slut bike, so who cares?

[AMuzi]

Slut's an excellent moniker for my filthy winter bike,
thanks for that.

[Tosspot]

Now the Princess on the other hand, dry miles (of course) only, not a
smidgen of dirt of the drive train, I shudder to think of a missed
service, and of course, closeted in my bed every winter night.

[John B.]

On Fri, 1 Jul 2016 21:15:31 +0200, Tosspot <Frank...@gmail.com>
wrote:

I believe that a true aficionado would keep the bikes in the "front
room" where everyone could admire them :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[Emanuel Berg]

AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> writes:

> 1. Maybe galvanic corrosion with the nipple,
> maybe with a steel rim insert.
> But corrosion nonetheless.

If it is "galvanic corrosion", is the corrosion
in or due to the zinc coating? Because if it
is, that is ironic as it is put there to
protect from rust!

> 2. Well, the wheelbuilder's reasons may
> include strength, cost or 'because we have
> brass nipples'. As with #1 above, here we
> are, it's corroded for whatever reason.
> Your problem is more whether to ignore it,
> clean it or replace it I think.

OK, so I know LISP is from the 50s, UNIX from
the 60s-70s, C++ the 80s, and Linux the 90s!
Does that make me a better programmer?
If I look at a piece of code, I can't say
a single line was improved by that knowledge.
But knowing it, I feel more appreciative of
what I'm doing, more confident and relaxed - it
is more pleasant to do...

It is, or could be, the same with rims.
If I true 10 rims, and can tell a story about
9, it won't feel like truing 10, it'll feel
like truing 2 - one plain, and one while
listening to a story!

Also, this kind of "facts for fans" are often
useful when you don't expect them to be.
Did you ever notice, when you learn something
new, the next day or something you hear to guys
on the street talk about it! Why didn't you
hear it all your life? Probably you did but
because it didn't make sense there was no
socket in your brain where it could land... Now
it does and it feels good :)

As for the actual rim, I think I cleaned that
and put it somewhere when I wrote the
original post!

This interesting excursion aside (or forked),
is there any tricks to cleaning it with
conventional tools? I got most of it away with
a wire brush but I heard that would damage the
aluminum and/or (?) the coating!
Getting chemicals isn't anything I consider at
the moment because it is just normal rim, of
which I have countless, and this is the first
time I saw it - unless the chemicals are
inexpensive in which case I'll get them if
I see them...

[Sir Ridesalot]

Why not just post an image of it and then link to the image here so we can see EXACTLY what you're trying to deal with? That'd make things a heck of a lot simpler plus remove the guesswork.

Cheers

[Emanuel Berg]

Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca>
writes:

> Why not just post an image of it and then
> link to the image here so we can see EXACTLY
> what you're trying to deal with? That'd make
> things a heck of a lot simpler plus remove
> the guesswork.

I already removed it. What remains is a small
white/gray ring just around the nipples, and
the reason it is there still is the nipples
protect them from the reach of brushes, steel
wool etc. I'm pretty sure it is what has been
suggested, so I can rephrase the question into
"how do you remove corrosion without damaging
anything, preferable without using specific
chemicals but everyday equipment?"

--
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic

- so far: 56 Blogomatic articles -

[John B.]

On Sat, 02 Jul 2016 07:59:40 +0200, Emanuel Berg
<embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:

>AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> writes:
>
>> 1. Maybe galvanic corrosion with the nipple,
>> maybe with a steel rim insert.
>> But corrosion nonetheless.
>
>If it is "galvanic corrosion", is the corrosion
>in or due to the zinc coating? Because if it
>is, that is ironic as it is put there to
>protect from rust!

Have a look at
http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/Definitions/galvanic-series.htm
which gives you an inkling of what is the cause.

The further apart two metals are on the chart the greater the
potential for corrosion. But remember, there must be an electrolyte
for the metals to corrode.

But I suggest the real question may be, how long have these things
been in use"? Something that had been in use for, say 10 years, and
has slight evidence of corrosion will likely last another ten years,

You might try vinegar? Or even coca-cola :-) I believe that they have
both been used to remove corrosion.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 02 Jul 2016 19:33:06 +0200, Emanuel Berg
<embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:

>"how do you remove corrosion without damaging
>anything, preferable without using specific
>chemicals but everyday equipment?"

You can't. Once the base metal has been corroded (oxidized), the
metal is converted into a salt (ionic compound created by mixing an
acid and a base), which is the white stuff you're dealing with. The
damage has already been done when the base metal was lost. Cleaning
off the salts (the white stuff) does not restore the metal to its
former condition. It only removes the salts (the white stuff).

I can't offer any specifics until you provide some detail as to what
was corroded. Was it the aluminum rim, steel washer, brass spoke
nipple, chrome plating, or stainless steel spoke?

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:

> But I suggest the real question may be, how
> long have these things been in use"?

How do I find out? Carbon-14?

No, when I see the rim again, I'll examine it
closer for some brand or other clue...

Does corrosion typically take a long time to
happen? With batteries the salt seems to be
around pretty frequently...

--
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic

- so far: 56 Blogomatic articles -

[Emanuel Berg]

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> writes:

> You can't. Once the base metal has been
> corroded (oxidized), the metal is converted
> into a salt (ionic compound created by mixing
> an acid and a base), which is the white stuff
> you're dealing with. The damage has already
> been done when the base metal was lost.
> Cleaning off the salts (the white stuff) does
> not restore the metal to its former
> condition. It only removes the salts (the
> white stuff).

OK! Salty water, should be pretty easy to
remove! But it wasn't, it was more difficult to
remove than rust! Perhaps got intermingled with
the aluminum and/or coating?

> I can't offer any specifics until you provide
> some detail as to what was corroded. Was it
> the aluminum rim, steel washer, brass spoke
> nipple, chrome plating, or stainless
> steel spoke?

This is something I've thought about a lot, how
do you determine what is what? I know only
about the non-magnetism test for stainless
steel. (I know the yellowish gold color of
brass, of course.)

And yes, the spokes have washers! Not common,
but yes, now that you say it, those I've seen
have all had this problem! So perhaps the
nipples are not the problem, but the washers
(in combination with the nipples and/or rim)!

On what materials should you, and should you
not, use the hair, nylon, brass, and steel
brushes, sand paper and emery, steel wool
and Svinto?

I never gave this much thought or actually
I did give it some thought and that thought was
I didn't know the answer :)

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 16:38:40 +0200, Emanuel Berg
<embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:

>Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> writes:
>
>> You can't. Once the base metal has been
>> corroded (oxidized), the metal is converted
>> into a salt (ionic compound created by mixing
>> an acid and a base), which is the white stuff
>> you're dealing with. The damage has already
>> been done when the base metal was lost.
>> Cleaning off the salts (the white stuff) does
>> not restore the metal to its former
>> condition. It only removes the salts (the
>> white stuff).
>
>OK! Salty water,

No, not salty water. I was very careful to *NOT* mention table salt
(sodium chloride) so that you would not confuse that with a chemical
salt (ionic compound created by mixing an acid and a base).

>should be pretty easy to
>remove! But it wasn't, it was more difficult to
>remove than rust! Perhaps got intermingled with
>the aluminum and/or coating?

The underlying metal probably looks like Swiss Cheeze (full of holes).
If the reaction products are mixed into the holes, they will be
difficult to remove by mechanical means. That leaves chemical means,
which requires knowing what has corroded.

Hint: Twang you spokes like a harp and listen for the tone. If you
find one that produces a dull thud and is obviously loose, look for
metal loss (though corrosion) around the spoke hole. This might
prevent having the spoke rip out of the rim when you put a load on it.

>I never gave this much thought or actually
>I did give it some thought and that thought was
>I didn't know the answer :)

The quality of the answers you receive are directly related to the
quality of the information you provide. I've seen no accurate
description of what is corroded or any maker or model numbers. Since
you've also avoided answering my questions, I give up.

[John B.]

On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 16:28:52 +0200, Emanuel Berg
<embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:

>John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:
>
>> But I suggest the real question may be, how
>> long have these things been in use"?
>
>How do I find out? Carbon-14?

Why, I assume "just look at it" :-)
Or, more seriously, identify the components and ask Andrew Muzi who
can probably tell you the period in which the components were used in
bicycle manufactured.

>No, when I see the rim again, I'll examine it
>closer for some brand or other clue...
>
>Does corrosion typically take a long time to
>happen? With batteries the salt seems to be
>around pretty frequently...

Think of the battery terminal as a worst case (although it may not be)
but un insulated aluminum to stainless joinings do, in the presence of
salt water, usually show corrosion in a matter of months.

The speed seems to be related by the distance the between the metals
on as listed on a "galvanic chart".

From: http://www.engineersedge.com/galvanic_capatability.htm

"For harsh environments, such as outdoors, high humidity, and salt
environments fall into this category. Typically there should be not
more than 0.15 V difference in the "Anodic Index". For example; gold
silver would have a difference of 0.15V being acceptable.

For normal environments, such as storage in warehouses or
non-temperature and humidity controlled environments. Typically there
should not be more than 0.25 V difference in the "Anodic Index"."

Aluminum - ~0.60, Aluminum - ~0.90

But note that for galvanic corrosion to occur there must be an
electrical conducting path between the two. Pure, distilled, water is
essentially an insulator while water with impurities (such as salt)
are a conductor.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Actually the only sure test is to have a lab test the material -
usually by some process that burns the material and views the spectrum
(I think).

In addition there are all kinds of "blacksmith" tricks. You can find
photos showing you how to identify some metals, usually an ferrous
material by grinding it and see what the sparks look like
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spark_testing
Or pictures at:
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PWCh6fdXdw
You can also spark test titanium :-)

The magnet test simply tests how much ferrous metal (iron) is in the
material. Some stainless', for example, are magnetic, and some are
not, and worse, some are only a little bit magnetic :-)

Once you get past that there is no telling as Aluminum, for example,
is nonmagnetic, usually does not spark, and is available in an amazing
number of alloys and treatments. In the aircraft industry there was
even a copper-aluminum alloy that corroded rapidly in itself but was
coated with a very thin of aluminum on both sides which protected it.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alclad

It is a complex subject.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:

> ... For normal environments, such as storage

> in warehouses or non-temperature and humidity
> controlled environments. Typically there
> should not be more than 0.25 V difference in
> the "Anodic Index"."
>
> Aluminum - ~0.60, Aluminum - ~0.90

OK, should that be:

Chromium plated; tin plated; 12% chromium
type corrosion-resistant steels

for ~0.60 V?

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:

> Actually the only sure test is to have a lab
> test the material

What about "if the brush leaves a mark, it is
too hard"?

If harder is more,

hair < nylon < brass < steel

right?

Can you deduct or enclose the material from how
hard it is? Or can different materials be
virtually as hard, with two instances of the
same material differ substantially in
this respect?

The frame is often dull as is the crank and
nuts. The handle bar and saddle pole are often
shiny. The upper part of the fork is often not
shiny but still softer than the frame. The rims
sometimes shiny, sometimes soft-but-dull, quite
hard despite looking fragile. The fenders
almost always shiny and soft, and not just soft
because of their thinness, I think.
The handlebar and in particular the fenders
appear the most vulnerable to too hard
brushes...

[John B.]

On Mon, 04 Jul 2016 05:10:44 +0200, Emanuel Berg
<embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:

>John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:
>
>> ... For normal environments, such as storage
>> in warehouses or non-temperature and humidity
>> controlled environments. Typically there
>> should not be more than 0.25 V difference in
>> the "Anodic Index"."
>>
>> Aluminum - ~0.60, Aluminum - ~0.90
>
>OK, should that be:
>
> Chromium plated; tin plated; 12% chromium
> type corrosion-resistant steels
>
>for ~0.60 V?

Are you going overboard here? My "second" Bangkok Bike was built in,
perhaps the mid 1900's and as far as I could tell probably had the
original aluminum wheels, with chrome or nickel plated nipples and
stainless spokes. The bike obviously came from Japan which does have a
lot of rain. No visible corrosion.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Mon, 04 Jul 2016 05:27:02 +0200, Emanuel Berg
<embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:

>John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:
>
>> Actually the only sure test is to have a lab
>> test the material
>
>What about "if the brush leaves a mark, it is
>too hard"?
>
>If harder is more,
>
> hair < nylon < brass < steel
>
>right?

Yes, but at the same time the ability to remove material is the same.

>
>Can you deduct or enclose the material from how
>hard it is? Or can different materials be
>virtually as hard, with two instances of the
>same material differ substantially in
>this respect?
>
>The frame is often dull as is the crank and
>nuts. The handle bar and saddle pole are often
>shiny. The upper part of the fork is often not
>shiny but still softer than the frame. The rims
>sometimes shiny, sometimes soft-but-dull, quite
>hard despite looking fragile. The fenders
>almost always shiny and soft, and not just soft
>because of their thinness, I think.
>The handlebar and in particular the fenders
>appear the most vulnerable to too hard
>brushes...

Corrosion depends very much on the material and what is causing it.
"Normal" corrosion - rust, etc. varies, a ferrous material, iron,
steel, etc. form iron oxide (rust) and ultimately will rust completely
away. Pure aluminum, on the other hand, forms a thin layer of aluminum
oxide on the surface (looks dull) which protects it from further
corrosion. Aluminum alloys can vary considerably depending on what the
alloying elements are. Brass and bronze vary considerably, again,
depending on the alloying elements.

The first ships that were sheathed with metal used lead however and
the iron rudder pintles were eaten away.


--
cheers,

John B.

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:

>> What about "if the brush leaves a mark, it is
>> too hard"?
>>
>> If harder is more,
>> hair < nylon < brass < steel
>>
>> right?
>
> Yes, but at the same time the ability to
> remove material is the same.

In the open, yes, but what if the material you
wish to remove is somehow intermingled with
other material that protects it? Perhaps the
nylon brush wont get past it, but the steel
brush will, however question remains if there
is a downside to that...

> Corrosion depends very much on the material
> and what is causing it. "Normal" corrosion -
> rust, etc. varies, a ferrous material, iron,
> steel, etc. form iron oxide (rust) and
> ultimately will rust completely away.
> Pure aluminum, on the other hand, forms
> a thin layer of aluminum oxide on the surface
> (looks dull) which protects it from further
> corrosion. Aluminum alloys can vary
> considerably depending on what the alloying
> elements are. Brass and bronze vary
> considerably, again, depending on the
> alloying elements.
>
> The first ships that were sheathed with metal
> used lead however and the iron rudder pintles
> were eaten away.

OK, so aluminum is sheathed with an alloy which
isolates the aluminum from the potential
electrolyte, so there can't be the battery
effect and thus no corrosion?

So probably the alloy on my rim was worn out or
not in 100% effect?

Perhaps someone cleaned the rim in
a heavy-handed way (e.g., the steel brush)
which damaged the alloy?

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:

>>> ... For normal environments, such as
>>> storage in warehouses or non-temperature
>>> and humidity controlled environments.
>>> Typically there should not be more than
>>> 0.25 V difference in the "Anodic Index"."
>>>
>>> Aluminum - ~0.60, Aluminum - ~0.90
>>
>> OK, should that be:

>> Chromium plated; tin plated; 12% chromium
>> type corrosion-resistant steels
>>
>>for ~0.60 V?
>
> Are you going overboard here?

Ha, no, it is what I found on the page to which
you provided the URL when I searched for
"0.60"!

Because you wrote "Aluminum" twice:

Aluminum - ~0.60, Aluminum - ~0.90

Before that, you said IIUC that for corrosion
to happen, there should be a difference between
the metals of > 0.25 V, and there is such
a difference between 0.60 V and 0.90 V, only
I think you meant to write something else and
not aluminum twice!

> My "second" Bangkok Bike was built in,
> perhaps the mid 1900's and as far as I could
> tell probably had the original aluminum
> wheels, with chrome or nickel plated nipples
> and stainless spokes. The bike obviously came
> from Japan which does have a lot of rain.
> No visible corrosion.

OK, cool :)

[John B.]

No, I didn't say that all aluminum is sheathed, only certain alloys.
And all corrosion is not galvanic either. Many metals will corrode
(oxidize) with no dissimilar metals with in a hundred miles :-)

>So probably the alloy on my rim was worn out or
>not in 100% effect?
>
>Perhaps someone cleaned the rim in
>a heavy-handed way (e.g., the steel brush)
>which damaged the alloy?

If it is an aluminum it is, or was, probably coated in some manner as
most aluminum bicycle stuff usually is. Part of you problem may be
that it was polished off or maybe just got old.

But I've never seen a problem with aluminum wheels. Not to say there
is none but I suspect it is probably fairly rare.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Tue, 05 Jul 2016 21:56:57 +0200, Emanuel Berg
<embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:

>John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:
>
>>>> ... For normal environments, such as
>>>> storage in warehouses or non-temperature
>>>> and humidity controlled environments.
>>>> Typically there should not be more than
>>>> 0.25 V difference in the "Anodic Index"."
>>>>
>>>> Aluminum - ~0.60, Aluminum - ~0.90
>>>
>>> OK, should that be:
>
>>> Chromium plated; tin plated; 12% chromium
>>> type corrosion-resistant steels
>>>
>>>for ~0.60 V?
>>
>> Are you going overboard here?
>
>Ha, no, it is what I found on the page to which
>you provided the URL when I searched for
>"0.60"!
>
>Because you wrote "Aluminum" twice:

Goodness! Do you want me to actually remember what I say (or post)?
:-)

> Aluminum - ~0.60, Aluminum - ~0.90
>
>Before that, you said IIUC that for corrosion
>to happen, there should be a difference between
>the metals of > 0.25 V, and there is such
>a difference between 0.60 V and 0.90 V, only
>I think you meant to write something else and
>not aluminum twice!
>
>> My "second" Bangkok Bike was built in,
>> perhaps the mid 1900's and as far as I could
>> tell probably had the original aluminum
>> wheels, with chrome or nickel plated nipples
>> and stainless spokes. The bike obviously came
>> from Japan which does have a lot of rain.
>> No visible corrosion.
>
>OK, cool :)
--

cheers,

John B.

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:

> No, I didn't say that all aluminum is
> sheathed, only certain alloys. And all
> corrosion is not galvanic either. Many metals
> will corrode (oxidize) with no dissimilar
> metals with in a hundred miles :-)

OK, so some alloys of aluminum are
sheathed/coated to protect them from rust and
oxidization (corrosion). This is common on
bikes. But sometimes there can still be
galvanic corrosion in the coating or normal
corrosion in the aluminum if the coating is
removed or gets old.

[AMuzi]

On 7/6/2016 9:38 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:
>
>> No, I didn't say that all aluminum is
>> sheathed, only certain alloys. And all
>> corrosion is not galvanic either. Many metals
>> will corrode (oxidize) with no dissimilar
>> metals with in a hundred miles :-)
>
> OK, so some alloys of aluminum are
> sheathed/coated to protect them from rust and
> oxidization (corrosion). This is common on
> bikes. But sometimes there can still be
> galvanic corrosion in the coating or normal
> corrosion in the aluminum if the coating is
> removed or gets old.
>

Right, like most any metal, micro scratches are points where
corrosion begins, especially in salt water or with
dissimilar metals nearby.

[John B.]

On Wed, 06 Jul 2016 16:38:54 +0200, Emanuel Berg
<embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:

>John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:
>
>> No, I didn't say that all aluminum is
>> sheathed, only certain alloys. And all
>> corrosion is not galvanic either. Many metals
>> will corrode (oxidize) with no dissimilar
>> metals with in a hundred miles :-)
>
>OK, so some alloys of aluminum are
>sheathed/coated to protect them from rust and
>oxidization (corrosion). This is common on
>bikes. But sometimes there can still be
>galvanic corrosion in the coating or normal
>corrosion in the aluminum if the coating is
>removed or gets old.

True.... but, for example, I don't believe that frame tubes were ever
galvanized, of course they could be, but it would be rather costly as
it would have to be done after welding.

I would guess that money probably comes into it. If corrosion was a
major problem with bicycles then likely they would be made of titanium
which would last for generations. But few bikes are made from titanium
and they are costly compared to common steel.

Does one buy a bike for 800 SK or does one buy one for 8,000 SK (or
even more) :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:

> I would guess that money probably comes into
> it. If corrosion was a major problem with
> bicycles then likely they would be made of
> titanium which would last for generations.
> But few bikes are made from titanium and they
> are costly compared to common steel.

Here, let me tell you an interesting story.

In 1981, some people at Volvo thought that
bikes were a piece of cake after you had done
cars.

The idea was that instead of putting nine pipes
together into a frame, and additionally three
into a fork, you'd do the whole thing
integrally. So the whole this was done in
plastic in 80 seconds!

The project received millions in state subsidy
because the bikes were manufactured in
Norrland, which is regretably depopulated
wilderness to a large extent.

The bike - "Itera" - promised to be the
lightest, must rust-free bike ever.

For starters, the weight was actually over 19
kg! The bike was ridiculously wobbly. But the
worst thing was that dogs reportedly liked to
chew off the side stand!

Instead of spokes, there were... ah, have
a look - insane:

https://www.google.se/search?site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1024&bih=656&q=itera&gws_rd=cr&ei=mz1-V_rXJOKv6ASs5o64Dw

More in this book, pages 62-64:

@book{cykelbok,
author = {Staffan Skott},
ISBN = {91-550-3942-1},
publisher = {Tiden},
title = {Cykelbok},
year = 1994

[AMuzi]

Although WOMBAT shows The Original Plastic Bike Company
promotional text here:
http://mombat.org/MOMBAT/Museum/Plastic_Bike_History.html

image:
https://www.firstflightbikes.com/imgs/plstbke.JPG

I could not find a report on the actual end of it which
turned out to be a fraud. At the time, savvy bicycle riders
noted that the glitzy equipment photos were standard, not
even expensive, parts sprayed with newly-introduced polymer
enamel. But the sudden popularity of lightweight bicycles
had created a frenzied investment environment and as always
some guy will usually relieve the investors of their extra
cash one way or another.

[Emanuel Berg]

AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> writes:

> I could not find a report on the actual end
> of it which turned out to be a fraud. At the
> time, savvy bicycle riders noted that the
> glitzy equipment photos were standard, not
> even expensive, parts sprayed with
> newly-introduced polymer enamel. But the
> sudden popularity of lightweight bicycles had
> created a frenzied investment environment and
> as always some guy will usually relieve the
> investors of their extra cash one way
> or another.

So you have a plastic bike story in your
country as well. Only that was a successful
fraud and not an honest failure like here.

This is interesting. Perhaps I will write
a short article on this - plastic bikes all over
the world! I'll look for more material and post
it if I find it.

[John B.]

Well, they before their time. Now plastic bikes sell for thousands of
dollars and the top racers use them :-)

They even make plastic boats and a good friend sailed one around the
world a couple of years ago :-)
--
cheers,

John B.