Titanium Frames
Michael Formica
OK, so Im in the market for a new frame, and decided to get (finally!,
after 3 suspension frames in a row), a stiff frame.
I looked at the Merlin demo's they had at the VT festival today, and
plan on checking out a dean and a litespeed.
A few questions.
1)Are there any other reputable makers of titanium frames available in
the NE?
2)What is the life expectancy of a ti frame. I have ridden Alumin for
8 years, and would like to finlly get a frame that still rides like
new after 3 years?
3) What (besides price) are faults of titanium?
4)Are some grades better than others. The guy I talked to was telling
me that Merlins are the natural color because they use "Hayes" ti, the
best. He said other brands that paint their frames or make them shiny
do that to hide defects in their inferior grade of titanium. (Is he
wanking my yanker?( I sort of felt so)
5)What else should I know about Titanium?
6) Are there any good sources of information on titanium? A book or a
Web Page, or maybe some cites to exceptional magazine articles?
Thanks a whole lot.
The Careful Consumer
Michael Formica
sk...@sover.net
TRS2nd
Mike,
In regards to your ti questions.
Yes, there are other small cottage industry types of ti builders out
there. However,. most are in CA, not on the NE coast. I bought a frame
from Gary Yokota having DB tubing. A great guy with lots of knowledge on
frames and is very concientious on what YOU want and how it is made. I had
several ideas in mind that were a bit different from the standard. Some he
said "Sure, no problem" others he convinced me wern't that good of an
idea. If your intrested, EMAIL me and I'll send you his address.
Other opinoins to your questions...
Life expectency is suppose to be very high. Welding does not embrittle the
frame as much. Plus there are other advantages. You are much less likely
to get that dink in the side of the tube from crashing, it will never
rust, painting is unnecessary so it doesn't get chipped or peeled off, and
finally you can take small scratches out with a scratch pad (if you get
the brushed look).
The price of a ti is conditional to the tubing you use and who you buy it
from. Merlin and all the others charge a LOT more compared to smaller
producers. Getting double butted tubing costs a lot more than single
guage. The size of tubing you get makes a difference also. Plus, if you
get a Time fork instead of an aluminum, that will add to the cost. Mine
has a Kestral which doesn't cost as much as a Time or Wound Up and is very
stiff laterally compared to an aluminum.
The down side to ti is that it leaves you with fewer excuses to tell the
wife or significant other why you need a new bike after you get one.
The look of a ti is conditional to how it is polished. A dull look like
on an Ibis mtn. bike is bead blasted, a brushed look of a Merlin is done
with a 3M purple scratch pad. The shiny, highly polished look comes from a
high speed buff. The differences between the three is merely the
microscopic smoothness. The smoother the more shine. The easiest to keep
up is the brushed look. You simply brush over it with a 3M purple pad to
remove any scratches.
If you call Merlin at their factory number and ask a dozen questions about
their bike they will send some literature to you about titanium tubing. Be
aware though that the material is highly swayed by what techniques they
use and how they make their bikes.
I love my ti. Its light, very stiff in the bottom bracket (thanks to 1
1/2" tubing), and yet very comfortable for long rides. It will no doubt
last me my lifetime. Drop me an email if I can give you any more info.
Jane Selin
Michael Formica (sk...@sover.net) wrote:
: OK, so Im in the market for a new frame, and decided to get (finally!,
: Michael Formica
: sk...@sover.net
Whats a Yanker? Something to do with George Steinbrenner(sp) may be? Also
whats wanking mean? Is it a speech thing like "wank you very much? Or a
nautical thing like wankers away?????? Please......I would honestly like
to know what this all really means.......Secret languages are sooooo kool.
Ajax Titanium
Gary Helfrich
Michael Formica <sk...@sover.net> wrote:
: 1)Are there any other reputable makers of titanium frames available in
: the NE?
Why limit your choices? Why does it matter if the UPS truck carried the
frame 50 miles or 3000 miles? Merlin and Litespeed are two of the most
reputable and by far the most experienced builders of titanium bikes in
the world. Moots, Ibis, Holland and many other builders produce frames
that are as nice or nicer than the Big Two, but require the brown truck to
travel outside of New England.
: 2)What is the life expectancy of a ti frame. I have ridden Alumin for
: 8 years, and would like to finlly get a frame that still rides like
: new after 3 years?
If they are well made, titanium frames will outlast most anything. Made
poorly, you will be lucky to get one season out of the bike.
: 3) What (besides price) are faults of titanium?
It is expensive. It costs alot. Don't forget that the bikes are priced
high as well.
: 4)Are some grades better than others. The guy I talked to was telling
: me that Merlins are the natural color because they use "Hayes" ti, the
: best. He said other brands that paint their frames or make them shiny
: do that to hide defects in their inferior grade of titanium. (Is he
: wanking my yanker?( I sort of felt so)
The Merlin "Technical Papers" are advertising bullshit. Sandvik is the
only American manufacturer that uses a low quality billet to produce
"sports grade" material. Ancotech and Haynes use the same material for
the bike industry that they sell to the aerospace and nuclear industries.
Merlin does use a lower strength, lower cost material on some of the rear
stays on selected models. Other companies are able to produce bikes at
the same price point and still use Ti-3Al-2.5V material in all of the
frame tubes. The defects that matter in titanium tube are nothing that
you will be able to see with your eyes, so no one is covering anything up.
: 5)What else should I know about Titanium?
DO NOT EVER BUY A BIKE MANUFACTURED IN ONE OF THE CIS COUNTRIES! The Asian
built bikes seem to be fine, but avoid the Boris and Natasha Bicycle Works
at all costs.
: 6) Are there any good sources of information on titanium? A book or a
: Web Page, or maybe some cites to exceptional magazine articles?
The recources that are out there fall in one of two catagories: Marketing
bullshit or overly technical. Email me for some of the URL's.
Gary Helfrich
Arctos Machine
Nick Wilde
In article <52on79$4...@news.wco.com>, Gary Helfrich <lap...@wco.com> wrote:
->: 5)What else should I know about Titanium?
->
->DO NOT EVER BUY A BIKE MANUFACTURED IN ONE OF THE CIS COUNTRIES! The Asian
->built bikes seem to be fine, but avoid the Boris and Natasha Bicycle Works
->at all costs.
Interesting. Can you provide a bit more details/data to back this up? I mean,
I know you're the ultimate authority on things Ti, and we're not supposed
to argue when the voice of Gary comes down from on high, but I'd like to
know a bit more, if you can divulge without slipping into too many
technical details (at which point I'm lost..). Is it the welding
technology? The quality of the tubing? All of the above?
Any more info on what to look for/how to judge a Ti frame would be
sincerely appreciated. I'm seriously in the market for a Ti hardtail
sometime in the
next few months. Are the "brand names" - i.e. Merlin, Litespeed, etc., worth
the $$$ or are you mainly paying for the cachet of the name? I'm inclined
to believe the latter, but have no firm data to back that up...
When not dealing with a household-name brands, how do you tell a good
builder from a hack? The Ti frame market seems to be the WWW of the MTB
market these
days - everybody and their brother is jumping on the bandwagon hoping to
get rich...
I just recently saw my first Russian-built Ti frame the other day.. A
company here in Boulder (RSR? RSI? RTR? Started with an R) seems to be
doing a "Dean", designing frames here in town, then shipping the orders
off to Russia to get built and shipped back - so you're telling me to stay
way, Gary? From casual inspection, the frames looked fine - even, precise
looking welds, no evident discoloration - but what do I know?
KB(ontrager) makes a Chinese-built Ti frame.. Are you saying that's a
safer bet then the Russian built?
Enquiring minds want to know..
- Nick
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Nick Wilde
wi...@cs.colorado.edu
David Blake
> Michael Formica (sk...@sover.net) wrote:
> : A few questions.
> : 1)Are there any other reputable makers of titanium frames available in
> : the NE?
Merlin is pretty good. Litespeed is good, but not in the NE. And
our own Gary Helfrich is still making Ti frames in N. California.
Litespeed also makes the frames for several other companies.
> : 2)What is the life expectancy of a ti frame. I have ridden Alumin for
> : 8 years, and would like to finlly get a frame that still rides like
> : new after 3 years?
I have friends that are on the heavy side (over 190 lbs) and
abusive off-road riders that have put over 5 years into a Merlin.
Most of the rest of the racers are going through (ie: breaking)
frames around every 8 months.
> : 3) What (besides price) are faults of titanium?
It generally only comes in silver color.
> : 4)Are some grades better than others. The guy I talked to was telling
> : me that Merlins are the natural color because they use "Hayes" ti, the
> : best. He said other brands that paint their frames or make them shiny
> : do that to hide defects in their inferior grade of titanium. (Is he
> : wanking my yanker?( I sort of felt so)
Well, if you can see bronzing color in the weld area, you'd be
well advised to move to the next brand of ti bikes.
> : 5)What else should I know about Titanium?
> : 6) Are there any good sources of information on titanium? A book or a
> : Web Page, or maybe some cites to exceptional magazine articles?
See www.titanium.com if you are really interested in the metal.
It only costs around $35/lb for what we use it for. Of course
tubing is probably a little more expensive.
--
Dave Blake
dbl...@phy.ucsf.edu
http://www.keck.ucsf.edu/~dblake
Kristan Roberge
Gary Helfrich <lap...@wco.com> wrote:
>: 5)What else should I know about Titanium?
>
>DO NOT EVER BUY A BIKE MANUFACTURED IN ONE OF THE CIS COUNTRIES! The Asian
>built bikes seem to be fine, but avoid the Boris and Natasha Bicycle Works
>at all costs.
Still spewing out the Russian Ti is crap myth Gary?!? There is nothing
wrong with the alloys themselves and the russians have certainly fiddled
with the stuff more than anyone else and are perfectly capable of
producing frames in any grade of Ti that a bike maker desires. The trick
is picking a frame from a manufacturer than (A) Uses a good alloy, and
(B) Remembers to purge all the oxygen out of the weld-zones. Some of
the lesser quality Ti frames (such as the models Nashbar sells) use
a simple commercially pure grade of titanium for example, while another
batch of frames suffered from oxygen contamination of the welds.
The RVT SVIR frames use seamless Ti 5/2 in either Double-Butted or
Straight gauge, and includes a lifetime guarantee. The design firm /
manufacturer is based in both colorado and russia.
--
Kristan Roberge
KMR Cycles Online
http://infoweb.magi.com/~kroberge/kmrtop.html
Gary Helfrich
David Blake <dbl...@phy.ucsf.edu> wrote:
: our own Gary Helfrich is still making Ti frames in N. California.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is just an ugly rumor.
: See www.titanium.com if you are really interested in the metal.
: It only costs around $35/lb for what we use it for. Of course
: tubing is probably a little more expensive.
Until the golf ninnies saturated the market this year, Ti-6Al-4V bar stock
was only $11./lb. In tube form, it is close to $100./lb now in the tube
sizes that are used in bikes, if you can even get it.
Gary Helfrich
Arctos Machine
Gary Helfrich
Kristan Roberge <krob...@magi.com> wrote:
: Still spewing out the Russian Ti is crap myth Gary?!? There is nothing
: wrong with the alloys themselves and the russians have certainly fiddled
: with the stuff more than anyone else and are perfectly capable of
: producing frames in any grade of Ti that a bike maker desires. The trick
: is picking a frame from a manufacturer than (A) Uses a good alloy, and
: (B) Remembers to purge all the oxygen out of the weld-zones. Some of
: the lesser quality Ti frames (such as the models Nashbar sells) use
: a simple commercially pure grade of titanium for example, while another
: batch of frames suffered from oxygen contamination of the welds.
: The RVT SVIR frames use seamless Ti 5/2 in either Double-Butted or
: Straight gauge, and includes a lifetime guarantee. The design firm /
: manufacturer is based in both colorado and russia.
You are right on the money with (A) and (B). Too bad you are overlooking
(C), (D), (E), etc. There isn't even a trick involved, just a commitment
to quality. I don't think that ISO-9000 is a concept that the Russians
have embraced at this point.
This wouldn't be the same RVT that was in booth E-4727 in the basement at
Interbike? These guys were walking examples of what to avoid at all costs
in a titanium bike. One of the more entertaining exchanges was
asking the person in the booth where all the white crud in the frame was
coming from. He went into an interesting spiel about his aerospace
background and how there was no need to purge the inside of the frame in
bicycle applications.
Ok, so why don't you tell us all what is so hot about the alloy that is
being used in the RVT bikes. No one at the booth seemed to know why it
was any better than Ti-3Al-2.5V. If the alloy that they were using is
BT4B(3B) which is a 5% aluminum 2% vanadium titanium alloy, then they are
completely full of shit.
Ti-5Al-2V has a relatively large amount of the alpha stabilizer, aluminum.
This will increase the modulus slightly, but at the expense of ductility.
The vanadium content (vanadium is a beta stabilizer) is too low for the
material to have a true alpha-beta structure. There is no advantage in
using this material over the more conventional Ti-3Al-2.5V unless you
happen to have a scrapyard full of the stuff. Oxygen enhanced CP titanium
will work as well as Ti-5Al-2V and is less expensive.
You should visit Albany, Oregon sometime soon, Kristen. The hull of an
Alpha class sub is being broken up at Oremet right now. Military equipment
seems to fascinate you, and you can see how badly made the Russian
hardware is. The coolest thing is what they are making with the scrap:
golf club heads. The material quality is too low for any other use.
The idea of wacking little white dimpled balls with a chunk of a USSR
attack sub is almost enough to make me take up golf.
Gary Helfrich
Arctos Machine
Kristan Roberge
Gary Helfrich <lap...@wco.com> wrote:
>
>> You are right on the money with (A) and (B). Too bad you are overlooking
> (C), (D), (E), etc. There isn't even a trick involved, just a commitment
> to quality. I don't think that ISO-9000 is a concept that the Russians
> have embraced at this point.
Depends on which russians your talking about. Its safe to say those working
for the space industry or one of the leading aerospace firms are
gonna build to a higher degree of quality than those at a farm-tractor
factory.
> This wouldn't be the same RVT that was in booth E-4727 in the basement at
> Interbike?
Probably was. I skip the tradeshows so I don't know what booth they
were in.
> Ok, so why don't you tell us all what is so hot about the alloy that is
> being used in the RVT bikes. No one at the booth seemed to know why it
> was any better than Ti-3Al-2.5V. If the alloy that they were using is
> BT4B(3B) which is a 5% aluminum 2% vanadium titanium alloy, then they are
> completely full of shit.
Its 93% Ti, 5% Aluminum, and 2% Manganese. According to the manual in
front of me, it falls between Ti 3-2.5 and Ti 6-4 in the strength
department.It is also described as an alpha-beta alloy. The frames
are all double-butted (external butts) and heat-treated after welding.
Kristan Roberge
wi...@cs.colorado.edu (Nick Wilde) wrote:
>
> In article <52on79$4...@news.wco.com>, Gary Helfrich <lap...@wco.com> wrote:
>
> ->: 5)What else should I know about Titanium?
> ->
> ->DO NOT EVER BUY A BIKE MANUFACTURED IN ONE OF THE CIS COUNTRIES! The Asian
> ->built bikes seem to be fine, but avoid the Boris and Natasha Bicycle Works
> ->at all costs.
>
> Interesting. Can you provide a bit more details/data to back this up? I mean,
> I know you're the ultimate authority on things Ti, and we're not supposed
> to argue when the voice of Gary comes down from on high, but I'd like to
> know a bit more,
Oh now you've opened a can of worms...
> I just recently saw my first Russian-built Ti frame the other day.. A
> company here in Boulder (RSR? RSI? RTR? Started with an R) seems to be
> doing a "Dean", designing frames here in town, then shipping the orders
> off to Russia to get built and shipped back - so you're telling me to stay
> way, Gary? From casual inspection, the frames looked fine - even, precise
> looking welds, no evident discoloration - but what do I know?
Its RVT, the alloy is Ti 5/2. That's 93% Ti, 5% Aluminum, and 2% Manganese
(though gary for some reason is mistaken in thinking its 2% vanadium -
once again unaware that the russians have made so many different
alloys that what they call 5/2 isn't the same as 5/2 in the USA), and
are available in double-butted or now in a straight-gauge form. The frames
carry a lifetime guarantee and include a crash-replacement policy
at a discount.
> KB(ontrager) makes a Chinese-built Ti frame.. Are you saying that's a
> safer bet then the Russian built?
Mark Hickey of Haneboro Cycles gets his Ti frames made in china from
Seamless Ti 3-2.5 as I recall.
Doug Milliken
On 29 Sep 1996, Jane Selin wrote:
> : wanking my yanker?( I sort of felt so)
> Whats a Yanker? Something to do with George Steinbrenner(sp) may be? Also
> whats wanking mean? Is it a speech thing like "wank you very much? Or a
> nautical thing like wankers away?????? Please......I would honestly like
> to know what this all really means.......Secret languages are sooooo kool.
> Ajax Titanium
I think it's an English thing, a "guy" thing, and pretty rude.
Grin a really big grin, and then ask a Limey.
Gary Helfrich
Kristan Roberge <krob...@magi.com> wrote:
: Gary Helfrich <lap...@wco.com> wrote:
: >
: >> You are right on the money with (A) and (B). Too bad you are overlooking
: > (C), (D), (E), etc. There isn't even a trick involved, just a commitment
: > to quality. I don't think that ISO-9000 is a concept that the Russians
: > have embraced at this point.
: Depends on which russians your talking about. Its safe to say those working
: for the space industry or one of the leading aerospace firms are
: gonna build to a higher degree of quality than those at a farm-tractor
: factory.
Some people that have been there seem to think that "Aeroflot" is the
Russian word for "Plane Crash". What leads you to believe that the
a Russian tractor factory is any different from one that produces aircraft
or nuclear reactors? Please share your information.
Quiz question for you: What is the name of the mill that produced the
titanium that RVT uses, and where are they located? Not the place that
welded the bike together, but the actual source of the material.
Taceability is a key element in a quality program. Any US manfacturer
that uses domestic tubing can trace the material all the way back to the
pit that produced the ore. If scrap was used in the melt, you can find out
its' source and chemistry as well.
I have a hard time believing that RVT know where their material comes from
or what its' chemical composition is. I might be dead wrong on this
speculation, so why not prove it?
: > Ok, so why don't you tell us all what is so hot about the alloy that is
: > being used in the RVT bikes. No one at the booth seemed to know why it
: > was any better than Ti-3Al-2.5V. If the alloy that they were using is
: > BT4B(3B) which is a 5% aluminum 2% vanadium titanium alloy, then they are
: > ^^^^^^^^ completely full of shit.
Typo on my part. The alloy should be listed as OT4B(3B).
: Its 93% Ti, 5% Aluminum, and 2% Manganese. According to the manual in
: front of me, it falls between Ti 3-2.5 and Ti 6-4 in the strength
: department.It is also described as an alpha-beta alloy. The frames
: are all double-butted (external butts) and heat-treated after welding.
Interesting. OK, what is your source for this information? Who wrote this
"manual"? A salesperson for RVT? Perhaps Mountain Bike Action?
"According to the manual in front of me" is not much of a reference.
How about some data. What are they claiming for the yield strength of
this material? What is the elongation at that strength level? What is the
the chemistry and the interstitial levels?
My source is a report titled "Titanium Alloys in the USSR" by V.V.
Tetyukhin of the Titanium Alloys Laboratory at the All-Union Institute of
Aviation Materials in Moscow. It is a comprehensive listing of all of the
sources of material and alloys available at the time of puplication (late
1990). I know that it is not as interesting as Zap telling you about the
new bitchin 200 mm travel fork, and the pictures suck as well, but it is
still interesting reading.
When this report was published, the alloy you mention did not exist. No
significant research into new titanium alloys in the CIS countries has
been published since then.
OK, lets assume that it did exist in some top secret skunkworks operation
in Siberia. Fine, first of all, manganese is not a beta stabilizer.
There is no beta structure in a titanium alloy that is 5% aluminum and 2%
manganese. Titanium alloys that do not have a beta phase cannot be heat
treated. Even the "low end" alpha-beta alloys like Ti-3Al-2.5V do not have
enough beta stabilizer to percipitation harden. The term marketing
bullshit begins to rear its ugly head.
There is an obsolete series of aluminum/manganese alloys, so perhaps I was
giving RVT the benefit of the doubt when I suggested that they were using
a currently produced alloy. At least the vanadium in Ti-5Al-2V could be
said to respond to heat treatment if you really strech the definition of
the term. With the aluminum/manganese alloy, it is just not true.
OK, how do you heat treat the frame after welding if the alloy cannot
respond to heat treatment? Butted tubing? Grinding or chem milling the
outside of the tube is from the stone age of titanium bikes. I guess this
makes it appropriate technology for RVT.
Gary Helfrich
Arctos Machine
Jeff Althoff
In article <52k42g$d...@thrush.sover.net>,
Michael Formica <sk...@sover.net> wrote:
>OK, so Im in the market for a new frame, and decided to get (finally!,
>after 3 suspension frames in a row), a stiff frame.
>I looked at the Merlin demo's they had at the VT festival today, and
>plan on checking out a dean and a litespeed.
>1)Are there any other reputable makers of titanium frames available in
>the NE?
Ibis Ti frames can be had via mail order, at the very least. Excel
carries them. In addition, there is at least one shop in the NE
listed on Ibis' home page. I think it is in Putney, VT and called
"West Hill Shop". Don't know anything more about them.
It would be very worthwhile for you to do what is necessary to test-ride
an Ibis before you plunk down your cash on anything else.
Check 'em out!
Jeff.
--
Jeff Althoff j...@netcom.COM
Michael Formica
se...@admaix.sunydutchess.edu (Jane Selin) wrote:
>Whats a Yanker? Something to do with George Steinbrenner(sp) may be? Also
>whats wanking mean? Is it a speech thing like "wank you very much? Or a
>nautical thing like wankers away?????? Please......I would honestly like
>to know what this all really means.......Secret languages are sooooo kool.
>Ajax Titanium
It's a secret male language for "jerking me off."
It's sort of like saying "The merlin rep was pulling my leg," but in a
more derogatory manner.
Since this is rec.bicycles.tech, and not alt.sex.whatever, I thought
Wanking the yanker would be more appropriate
Michael Formica
sk...@sover.net
Kit Cheves
In article <52p9qf$5...@news.istar.ca>, Kristan Roberge <krob...@magi.com>
wrote:
> Gary Helfrich <lap...@wco.com> wrote:
>
> >: 5)What else should I know about Titanium?
> >
> >DO NOT EVER BUY A BIKE MANUFACTURED IN ONE OF THE CIS COUNTRIES! The Asian
> >built bikes seem to be fine, but avoid the Boris and Natasha Bicycle Works
> >at all costs.
>
>
> Still spewing out the Russian Ti is crap myth Gary?!? There is nothing
> wrong with the alloys themselves and the russians have certainly fiddled
> with the stuff more than anyone else and are perfectly capable of
> producing frames in any grade of Ti that a bike maker desires. The trick
> is picking a frame from a manufacturer than (A) Uses a good alloy, and
> (B) Remembers to purge all the oxygen out of the weld-zones. Some of
> the lesser quality Ti frames (such as the models Nashbar sells) use
> a simple commercially pure grade of titanium for example, while another
> batch of frames suffered from oxygen contamination of the welds.
>
> The RVT SVIR frames use seamless Ti 5/2 in either Double-Butted or
> Straight gauge, and includes a lifetime guarantee. The design firm /
> manufacturer is based in both colorado and russia.
>
> --
> Kristan Roberge
> KMR Cycles Online
> http://infoweb.magi.com/~kroberge/kmrtop.html
Are these frames that Kristan sells? If so, a disclaimer to that effect
would seem appropriate.
Kit Cheves
San Diego Ca.
Tho X. Bui (bleep@mwci.net)
Gary Helfrich wrote:
> Kristan Roberge <krob...@magi.com> wrote:
> : Still spewing out the Russian Ti is crap myth Gary?!? There is nothing
> : wrong with the alloys themselves and the russians have certainly fiddled
> : with the stuff more than anyone else and are perfectly capable of
> : producing frames in any grade of Ti that a bike maker desires.
> There isn't even a trick involved, just a commitment
> to quality. I don't think that ISO-9000 is a concept that the Russians
> have embraced at this point.
I had to smile when I see the above ref. to ISO-9000, having just
finished writing a whole slew of documents myself. Quality and
ISO-9000* create debates that would make the most heated arguments
about hardtail vs. suspension look like a unanymous decision.
At any rate, having experienced first hand with some Russian-sourced
material (non-Ti), I will risk overgeneralizing and side with Gary.
While the good stuff can be very good with incredibly low price,
the bad stuff can be down right awful. The catch is that a lot
of the time, it's very difficult to pick-and-choose until it's too
late (speaking from the view point of a manufacturer).
tho
*for those who are not familiar with it, ISO-9000 and similar standards
are means to standardize quality via documentations. What ever you do,
you'd better document it. What ever you document, you'd better do it.
Or else!
Kristan Roberge
Gary Helfrich <lap...@wco.com> wrote:
>
> Kristan Roberge <krob...@magi.com> wrote:
> : Gary Helfrich <lap...@wco.com> wrote:
> : >
> : >> You are right on the money with (A) and (B). Too bad you are overlooking
> : > (C), (D), (E), etc. There isn't even a trick involved, just a commitment
> : > to quality. I don't think that ISO-9000 is a concept that the Russians
> : > have embraced at this point.
>
> : Depends on which russians your talking about. Its safe to say those working
> : for the space industry or one of the leading aerospace firms are
> : gonna build to a higher degree of quality than those at a farm-tractor
> : factory.
>
> Some people that have been there seem to think that "Aeroflot" is the
> Russian word for "Plane Crash". What leads you to believe that the
> a Russian tractor factory is any different from one that produces aircraft
> or nuclear reactors? Please share your information.
Gary, are you just pretending to be stupid or were you born this
way?!? Aeroflot is/was the Soviet national airline. They are NOT a
aircraft manufacturer (the bulk of their fleet is made up of aircraft
from Antonov, Tupolev and Illyushin) but simply an airline like USAir
or TWA. You DO know the difference don't you? Apparently not...,
otherwise you might be aware that Aeroflot is suffering a cash-shortage
and has been since the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991/92. As
a result of this cash-shortage, regular maintenance is not being performed,
planes are flying with minimal fuel reserves (landing on vapor is
not uncommon), and the pilots and crew are overworked and underpaid.
Odds are these are the reasons for all the crashes and NOT because of
bad manufacturing. They managed to fly with a pretty good safety record
for some 40 years while all the maintenance was being kept up to date.
> Quiz question for you: What is the name of the mill that produced the
> titanium that RVT uses, and where are they located? Not the place that
> welded the bike together, but the actual source of the material.
I Don't know the name of the facility, but I'm talked with RVT and
they'll be posting a response here in a day or so. It seems you
started spewing off about how they were junk but seem to have them
confused with a bike company 5 boothes down from them at the show
who were selling Ti BMX frames.
> I have a hard time believing that RVT know where their material comes from
> or what its' chemical composition is. I might be dead wrong on this
> speculation, so why not prove it?
RVT will be posting shortly as I've said. They also informed me that
you kept showing up at the show with sales reps from two of the big
US Titanium mills... your not on a paid-retainer by any chance as
a consultant still?!? Perhaps your putting down russian Ti because
you stand to take a hit in the ol' paycheck...
> : Its 93% Ti, 5% Aluminum, and 2% Manganese. According to the manual in
> : front of me, it falls between Ti 3-2.5 and Ti 6-4 in the strength
> : department.It is also described as an alpha-beta alloy. The frames
> : are all double-butted (external butts) and heat-treated after welding.
>
> Interesting. OK, what is your source for this information? Who wrote this
> "manual"? A salesperson for RVT?
Its the RVT dealer-guide as it happens., spring 1996 edition.
> "According to the manual in front of me" is not much of a reference.
> How about some data. What are they claiming for the yield strength of
> this material? What is the elongation at that strength level? What is the
> the chemistry and the interstitial levels?
They'll be posting all of this shortly.
>> 1990). I know that it is not as interesting as Zap telling you about the
> new bitchin 200 mm travel fork, and the pictures suck as well, but it is
> still interesting reading.
Never talked to Zap. He doesn't work for MBA anymore you know.
> When this report was published, the alloy you mention did not exist. No
> significant research into new titanium alloys in the CIS countries has
> been published since then.
>
> OK, lets assume that it did exist in some top secret skunkworks operation
> in Siberia. Fine, first of all, manganese is not a beta stabilizer.
> There is no beta structure in a titanium alloy that is 5% aluminum and 2%
> manganese.
REALLY?!? I visited Titanium Inc's homepage today (http://www.titanium.com)
and they described mangenese as a beta stabilizer in their technical
descriptions.
> OK, how do you heat treat the frame after welding if the alloy cannot
> respond to heat treatment? Butted tubing? Grinding or chem milling the
> outside of the tube is from the stone age of titanium bikes. I guess this
> makes it appropriate technology for RVT.
If you want the info so badly, either visit the RVT homepage
http://www.RVTinc.com or wait for their posting.
Ned Endler
The following information is intended to inform interested readers on
the titanium alloy used by RVT inc. in its bicycle industry related
products, along with general information regarding the Russian
titanium industry and its connection to the U.S. marketplace.
As one of the largest titanium producers in the world, it would be
incorrect to classify all Russian titanium as poor quality, and
likewise incorrect to classify the products produced by all companies
using Russian titanium as inferior.
Although not widely known, much Ti alloy sourced from Russia is used
in international aerospace, both in the US and abroad. Boeing and
General Electric both have certified select Russian titanium
producers. Rockwell International is another company utilizing
Russian infrastructure and titanium. Much of the information
available in the U.S. is received from "second hand" sources and tends
to be inaccurate. Note that "The U.S. Imports For Consumption Of
Titanium Metals - Source: Bureau of the Census" reports that in 1995
the U.S. imported more than 1,000 metric tons of Russian ingot, billet
and various mill products. Also, Alpha class subs are being purchased
by US firms for scrap and then remelted into various other Ti alloys
for domestic use.
RVT exhibited at Interbike in Hall E, #4727. However, we are not the
company displaying poor workmanship and contaminated welds. Those
frames (a BMX frame and a road frame) displayed by a company in the
vicinity of RVT showed considerable contamination. It is unfortunate
that we have been confused with someone else as RVT has spent the last
year developing a quality control program to ensure the integrity of
our products (Hauser Laboratories , Boulder, CO is the testing
facility used by RVT). For the record, I personally do not have an
aerospace background, but our production manager does and so do our
welders; they, however, were not present at the show.
As most people realize, welding Ti without an inert environment would
cause severe contamination. Individuals who visited our booth saw
frames and tube samples with quality welds; the lack of contamination
was also evident.
To address the interest about our alloy, RVT utilizes Ti-5Al-2Mn. We
chose this alloy due to its unique properties. "5/2" has an
elongation percentage close to 28%, allowing us to form the tubing
without compromising structural integrity. Percent elongation is a
measurement of the strain at the point of fracture of a specimen.
That is, strain multiplied by 100 equals percent elongation (this
measurement should be accompanied by a gauge length of the specimen).
For example, a 2 inch specimen which has a measured strain of 0.0015
at its failure point would be said to have an elongation of 15% over a
2 inch gauge. Summary: a higher elongation percentage is indicative
of a more ductile alloy. For reference, Ti-3Al-2.5V has an elongation
percentage around 20% and Ti-6Al-4V has an elongation near 10%. We
use Ti-5Al-2Mn for another reason; it has a higher tensile strength
than Ti-3Al-2.5V ("5/2" reaches a 110 ksi ultimate tensile strength
when annealed).
For stress relief, we heat treat the tubing after cold working. Heat
treating is a valuable procedure as long as the alloy is receptive to
this process. Aluminum and manganese alloyed with titanium in
sufficient quantity forms a eutectoid system, which has heat treatable
properties, Source: Titanium - A Technical Guide, page 35, Matthew
J. Donachie Jr., Copyright 1988 ASM International.
Our temperature treatment corresponds to the following table from
"Metals Handbook" 9th Edition, Volume 4, 1981.
stress-relief
Alpha or near-alpha temp. time
composite
min-max for 5 alloys 480-705 C. .25-4 hrs
Alpha-beta alloys
min-max, 8 alloys 480-705 C. .25-8 hrs
Beta or near-beta
min-max 5 alloys 675-815 C. .15-2 hrs
Readers who are in the Las Vegas area can learn more by attending the
12th Annual Titanium Applications Conference and Exposition (Oct.
12-14 in Las Vegas, NV). We suggest attendance at the "Overview of
the Russian Market" program, with speaker N.F. Anoshkin, Deputy
Director of VILS and CIS President. Also note: Carlos Aguirre,
President & CEO of OREMET will give a world market synopsis.
Attendants of the conference will garner an understanding of why
Russian titanium is a valuable commercial resource for aerospace and
sport related industries.
RVT inc. is an international company that illustrates that quality
does not recognize continental boundaries.
Those who would like to research further titanium information on-line
can explore the following web sites:
http://www.titanium.com
http://www.asm-intl.org/MI/
Interested readers can contact RVT directly for more information,
in...@RVTinc.com
--------------------
RVT inc. 800-722-1755
2525 Arapahoe Avenue 303-413-1755 voice
Building E4, Suite 143 303-413-1724 fax
Boulder, Colorado 80302 USA http://www.RVTinc.com
TedHas
In article <52qa0m$n...@news.istar.ca>, Kristan Roberge <krob...@magi.com>
writes:
>Depends on which russians your talking about. Its safe to say those
working
>for the space industry or one of the leading aerospace firms are
>gonna build to a higher degree of quality than those at a farm-tractor
>factory.
>
My Litespeed farm-tractor is faster than those poorly built Ruskie
ti-farm-tractors and it's stiffer in a rocky ground sprint.
--Ted Haskell
Kristan Roberge
No argument there... but the key word is 'poorly' built. Not all russian
Ti frames are poorly built nor do they all use low-grade scrap Titanium.
A fact Gary seems unwilling or unable to accept. The russian produce
enough high-grade titanium alloy that Rockwell Internationl (the manufacturer
of the SpaceShuttle), and General Electric (one of the largest aircraft
engine manufacturers in the USA) among others have certified them
aerospace production in the USA. Rockwell is even going to far as to
build a facility in russian.
Kristan Roberge
kch...@qalcomm.com (Kit Cheves) wrote:
>
> In article <52p9qf$5...@news.istar.ca>, Kristan Roberge <krob...@magi.com>
> > >
> > >DO NOT EVER BUY A BIKE MANUFACTURED IN ONE OF THE CIS COUNTRIES! The Asian
> > >built bikes seem to be fine, but avoid the Boris and Natasha Bicycle Works
> > >at all costs.
>
> > Straight gauge, and includes a lifetime guarantee. The design firm /
> > manufacturer is based in both colorado and russia.
> would seem appropriate.
>
I am a dealer for RVT, but I've also dealt other russian Ti frames in
the past. But Gary is also the token poster boy for the american
Ti industry so perhaps he should have a disclaimer also. Alas poor
Gary's opinions are not shared by the leading Ti mills in the USA,
several of whom have contacted RVT for tubing samples and specific
alloy information on the Ti 5/2 tubing they're using. This includes
Sandvik and Ancotech. I have to wonder why Ancotech would be SO
interested in russian titanium if it was garbage like gary says...
Gary Helfrich
Kristan Roberge <Krob...@magi.com> wrote:
: I am a dealer for RVT, but I've also dealt other russian Ti frames in
: the past. But Gary is also the token poster boy for the american
: Ti industry so perhaps he should have a disclaimer also. Alas poor
: Gary's opinions are not shared by the leading Ti mills in the USA,
: several of whom have contacted RVT for tubing samples and specific
: alloy information on the Ti 5/2 tubing they're using. This includes
: Sandvik and Ancotech. I have to wonder why Ancotech would be SO
: interested in russian titanium if it was garbage like gary says...
You might want to check your facts. You seem to have some inside
information as to my sources of income and my relationship with Ancotech.
Do tell where this "information" comes from. You seem to like to make up
"facts" rather than go through the work of doing research.
My involvement with Ancotech is more personal than business. I have never
received any monetary compensation from the company at any time. They
have been very supportive of any projects or research that I am involved
in. Many projects that are providing me with a steady income would not
have been possible without access to Ancotech lab facilities and
engineers.
I consider Andy Maliszewski (Vice President and General Manager of
Ancotech) to be one of my closest friends. We have spent quite a bit of
time together sampling malted sports beverages in northern Michigan. I
also spend time with Kaz Saito who is the President and majority
stockholder in Ancotech.
Sure, Ancotech looked at samples of material provided by RVT. They look
at material produced by every source in the world. Looking and buying are
two very different things. There is no prejudice against material that is
from Russia, Ukraine, or any other country in that neck of the woods.
Unlike yourself, I have access to the results of the testing at Ancotech.
None of the material from any of these sources has met their quality
standards. This is something that they are devoting a huge amount of
resources to. Andy has spent months over there trying to make things
work.
Checking out the competition is just sound business practice. It does not
necessarily constitute an endorsement of the competitions'product.
Gary Helfrich
Arctos Machine
Gary Helfrich
Kristan Roberge <Krob...@magi.com> wrote:
: No argument there... but the key word is 'poorly' built. Not all russian
: Ti frames are poorly built nor do they all use low-grade scrap Titanium.
: A fact Gary seems unwilling or unable to accept. The russian produce
: enough high-grade titanium alloy that Rockwell Internationl (the manufacturer
: of the SpaceShuttle), and General Electric (one of the largest aircraft
: engine manufacturers in the USA) among others have certified them
: aerospace production in the USA. Rockwell is even going to far as to
: build a facility in russian.
I have no problem accepting that the Russians could build a good bike. I
just have not seen an example yet. US builders by no means have a monopoly
on well made titanium bikes. I have seen Chinese, Canadian, and Taiwanese
bikes that appeared to be very well designed and constructed.
Interesting bit about Rockwell. Where did you uncover this gem? I've
spent some time with one of the people who is working on negotiating on
their behalf, and it is news to him. Your source wouldn't happen to be a
sales person from RVT?
Gary Helfrich
Arctos Machine
Kristan Roberge
Gary Helfrich <lap...@wco.com> wrote:
> You might want to check your facts. You seem to have some inside
> information as to my sources of income and my relationship with Ancotech.
> Do tell where this "information" comes from. You seem to like to make up
> "facts" rather than go through the work of doing research.
I report what I'm informed by attendees at interbike. You should talk
about doing research... that bit about Aeroflot had me laughing off my
chair... manganese isn't a beta stabilizer... oh the list just goes
on...
> My involvement with Ancotech is more personal than business. I have never
> received any monetary compensation from the company at any time. They
> have been very supportive of any projects or research that I am involved
> in. Many projects that are providing me with a steady income would not
> have been possible without access to Ancotech lab facilities and
> engineers.
And are you paying for the usage of the Ancotech lab facilities and
engineers or are these perks that they provide for you as a
consultant? If the latter it sounds like a business relationship to
me.
> Checking out the competition is just sound business practice. It does not
> necessarily constitute an endorsement of the competitions'product.
So will you be attending the 12th annual Internation titanium conference
this year? Where the president of the CIS Titanium association will be
one of the guest speakers... this'll give you an excellent opportunity
to 'check out' the competition.
I also notice you haven't yet responded to the RVT posting... amazing
how you can always find time to respond to my postings (usually to nit-
pick) but not to others who are actually capable of providing all the
answers to the juicy questions about alloys and tensile strengths
that you like to ask.
Kristan Roberge
Kristan Roberge <krob...@magi.com> wrote:
> RVT will be posting shortly as I've said. They also informed me that
> you kept showing up at the show with sales reps from two of the big
> US Titanium mills...
Pardon me while I add a clarification. RVT said that reps from Ancotech
and other Ti mills, plus people from Litespeed, Merlin, Dean, etc.
kept showing up every day to ask more questions. Another of my contacts
from the show mentions (along with telling me about all the v-style
brakes that everyone is flogging) that he saw Gary and some of the
reps from the various Ti mills in various booths belonging to companies
selling Russian Ti frames/parts. Now it seems like an amazing coincidence
that the person who most of the bike media holds up as the definitive
source of information (although his trivia skills are somewhat lacking...
"aeroflot makes planes"... oh it is to laugh) on titanium and its
applications for bikes (being the first person credited with making
a Ti bike frame... WHEN WAS THAT FIRST FRAME PUT TOGETHER, I have a
source that says a Ti frame was made in Russia in 1976 for their
Olympic Team, perhaps Gary DIDN"T invent the ti bike frame) was in
several of these booths at the same time as the reps.
Gary Helfrich
: > Quiz question for you: What is the name of the mill that produced the
: > titanium that RVT uses, and where are they located? Not the place that
: > welded the bike together, but the actual source of the material.
: I Don't know the name of the facility, but I'm talked with RVT and
: they'll be posting a response here in a day or so. It seems you
: started spewing off about how they were junk but seem to have them
: confused with a bike company 5 booths down from them at the show
: who were selling Ti BMX frames.
They posted, and there is still no information. This is typical of many of
the companies selling Russian titanium bikes. They think that there is a
need to keep the source of their material secret. Funny how the rest of
the bike industry seems to take pride in the source of their materials,
while the Russian companies are evasive about it.
Their web site is equally devoid of hard data. The Titan BMX bikes were
true garbage. They were the one with they white crusties coming out of
the bb shell. (This was the booth down the aisle from RVT) but the RVT
frames did not seem that great either.
: > I have a hard time believing that RVT know where their material comes from
: > or what its' chemical composition is. I might be dead wrong on this
: > speculation, so why not prove it?
Point made. It is clear that I was wrong in my assumption and the RVT
bikes are produced from Ti-5Al-2Mn.
: RVT will be posting shortly as I've said. They also informed me that
: you kept showing up at the show with sales reps from two of the big
: US Titanium mills... your not on a paid-retainer by any chance as
: a consultant still?!? Perhaps your putting down russian Ti because
: you stand to take a hit in the ol' paycheck...
The fact that you feel that Russian titanium will have a negative impact
on Ancotechs' sales demonstrates your ignorance of the dynamics of the
titanium market. Right now there is an acute shortage of input
material. The output of Ancotech and many other producers is limited by
input material. For some of their less critical applications
(commercially pure tube, etc.) they are already using some Russian input
material. If the quality was there, and the delivery was reliable, they
would be using it right now. Nothing would please them more that the
Russians getting their shit together.
As for the retainer stuff, see my response to your later post.
Either RVT is lying or you have an active imagination. I did not get out
of the UBI booth until Sunday. The Ancotech crowd flew back to Detroit on
Saturday. I visited the booth alone on Sunday morning before the show
opened, and then came back again at noon.
Got news for you, the success or failure of Russian bike frames has no
effect on my income. You, on the other hand have admitted to having a
vested interest in the sales of RVT frames. If the Russian material shows
promise, people like Ancotech will import raw material and produce the
tube themselves. Quite a bit of the sponge used in ingot production comes
from China. The titanium industry is, and has been a global enterprise.
The problem is that the Russians are not yet world class.
: > "According to the manual in front of me" is not much of a reference.
: > How about some data. What are they claiming for the yield strength of
: > this material? What is the elongation at that strength level? What is the
: > the chemistry and the interstitial levels?
: They'll be posting all of this shortly.
They did. I checked their web page. They seem to have a problem with the
accuracy of their information. The yield strength of Ti-3Al-2.5V is
listed as 70Ksi. I have a stack of certifications from Haynes, Ancotech,
and Sandvik here, and none of them show a yield strength lower than 108Ksi
for material in the CWSR105 condition. (This is the most common spec used
in the bike industry). The listed yield of the Ti-5Al-2Mn is not the same
number on their web page as it is on their post.
"Heat Treating" is approached in a novel way as well. Most titanium
tubing undergoes some form of thermal stress relief. This is quite a bit
different from precipitation hardening the material. True, stress relief
does use heat to alter the mechanical properties of the material. It also
lowers the yield point. Technically you could be correct in calling
thermal stress relief "heat Treating", but that is a bit of a stretch.
If yield strength and elongation were the be all and end all of titanium
bicycle applications, Ti-15V-3Cr-3Sn-3Al would have taken over the market.
Ancotech and others have made 15-3-3-3 tube. It is not that expensive and
it responds well to heat treatment. The real life performance of the
material was disappointing, however.
: > OK, lets assume that it did exist in some top secret skunkworks operation
: > in Siberia. Fine, first of all, manganese is not a beta stabilizer.
: > There is no beta structure in a titanium alloy that is 5% aluminum and 2%
: > manganese.
: REALLY?!? I visited Titanium Inc's homepage today (http://www.titanium.com)
: and they described mangenese as a beta stabilizer in their technical
: descriptions.
I'm wrong. Should have researched this one a bit more before shooting my
mouth off. BTW, that is the page for Titanium Industries.
: If you want the info so badly, either visit the RVT homepage
I still want information that badly. The RVT homepage is just a bunch of
sales hype. C'mon, a "proprietary" method of external butting? I used to
own Merlin, remember? Can you say "been there done that"? This is five
year old technology.
Gary Helfrich
Arctos Machine
Kristan Roberge
Gary Helfrich <lap...@wco.com> wrote:
>
> They posted, and there is still no information. This is typical of many of
> the companies selling Russian titanium bikes. They think that there is a
> need to keep the source of their material secret.
They have access to a source for high-quality yet reasonably price
Titanium and they want to protect their investment. No big mystery
there. If you want the info, send them email and ask them yourself.
> the bike industry seems to take pride in the source of their materials,
> while the Russian companies are evasive about it.
Actually RVT is an american company, headquarters are in Boulder, CO.
They're evasive because they don't want other small outfits / design
firms to use their established contacts to start their own businesses.
Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
> Their web site is equally devoid of hard data. The Titan BMX bikes were
> true garbage. They were the one with they white crusties coming out of
> the bb shell. (This was the booth down the aisle from RVT) but the RVT
> frames did not seem that great either.
Amazing how you left out that detail in one of your previous postings
isn't it. When I read your posting it seemed to me that your were
slandering a totally seperate company that the one with the white
flakes.
> The fact that you feel that Russian titanium will have a negative impact
> on Ancotechs' sales demonstrates your ignorance of the dynamics of the
> titanium market. Right now there is an acute shortage of input
> material. The output of Ancotech and many other producers is limited by
> input material.
So your saying that a sudden increase in quality russian production
wouldn't have a negative impact on an american company that can meet
the demand for themselves?!? Interesting interpretation of supply
and demand...
> Got news for you, the success or failure of Russian bike frames has no
> effect on my income. You, on the other hand have admitted to having a
> vested interest in the sales of RVT frames.
I also will be selling Moots shortly, an american brand, and have looked
at other Swiss, Chinese, Canadian, and American brands before. I just
don't like self-appointed lapdogs of the Ti industry who take it upon
themselves to critize an entire country because of a couple failed
ventures on the part of naive western-corporations.
> promise, people like Ancotech will import raw material and produce the
> tube themselves. Quite a bit of the sponge used in ingot production comes
> from China. The titanium industry is, and has been a global enterprise.
> The problem is that the Russians are not yet world class.
Uh huh. That's not what I hear. What I hear is that people from Ancotech
are worried that if Russian production ever gets their shit together
as far as quality control in manufacturing and reliable deliveries
of materials its gonna mean a big chunk of their business is going
to go away. From what I've seen of the RVT frames, at least one
russian factory has their shit together.
> They did. I checked their web page. They seem to have a problem with the
> accuracy of their information.
Then go make a followup to THEIR posting if you have a problem with their
figures.
> : > OK, lets assume that it did exist in some top secret skunkworks operation
> : > in Siberia. Fine, first of all, manganese is not a beta stabilizer.
> : > There is no beta structure in a titanium alloy that is 5% aluminum and 2%
> : > manganese.
>
> : REALLY?!? I visited Titanium Inc's homepage today (http://www.titanium.com)
> : and they described mangenese as a beta stabilizer in their technical
> : descriptions.
>
> I'm wrong. Should have researched this one a bit more before shooting my
> mouth off. BTW, that is the page for Titanium Industries.
DING DING DING!!! WE HAVE A WINNER! You mean you didn't research
Titanium and the properties of the elements used in the alloys before
making a statement where you said they were lying about Ti 5/2 being an
alpha-beta alloy... and to think people say I have no creditibility...
at least I came onto the 'net as an unknown. you Gary are well-known
in the bike industry and shouldn't be risking your reputation so
often...
> I still want information that badly. The RVT homepage is just a bunch of
> sales hype. C'mon, a "proprietary" method of external butting? I used to
> own Merlin, remember? Can you say "been there done that"? This is five
> year old technology.
Co-own as I recall, with Mike and Gwynn (least every mag always describes
you as one of three co-founders of Merlin). Email him for the info, I'm sure
he'll be happy to let his engineer talk to you (and yes the guy's
an aerospace engineer). They just don't want to go into a great debate
with you in the newsgroup (lest this turn into the pedro's scam
discussion) since your so good at posting errors which I then end
up catching you on. Trouble is, before I catch you... someone else
has read the error, considered the much-publicized reputation of
the poster ("gary helfrich, co-founder of Merlin Titanium,
industry-watchdog, grandfather of the Ti bike frame, etc") and then
take what you've said as fact.
Kristan Roberge
Gary Helfrich <lap...@wco.com> wrote:
>
> Kristan Roberge <Krob...@magi.com> wrote:
> I have no problem accepting that the Russians could build a good bike. I
> just have not seen an example yet. US builders by no means have a monopoly
> on well made titanium bikes. I have seen Chinese, Canadian, and Taiwanese
> bikes that appeared to be very well designed and constructed.
Did you say chinese and Taiwan... but aren't those the countries where
cheap knock-offs are made?!? How could they make a good bike... :)
Colnago (a well-respected Italian road bike builder) has all their Ti
frames and tubing made in Russia... bet you didn't know that either.
Just like you weren't aware that Tom Ritchey has a 50-bike license
agreement for using the Moots YBB design. There's alot of bike industry
trivia that you seem to be missing out on.
> Interesting bit about Rockwell. Where did you uncover this gem? I've
> spent some time with one of the people who is working on negotiating on
> their behalf, and it is news to him. Your source wouldn't happen to be a
> sales person from RVT?
The president of RVT as it happens, and your source?!? I notice you
didn't say anything about my mentioning General Electric (wish I
could remember the name of the third company... can't recall if its
Lockheed or Martin-Marietta - technically one and the same now), could
this mean you WERE aware that they had certified russian tubing
for use in their jet engines?!?
Neil Redding
Kristan,
Why don't you give up. You have a sideline selling bikes and bike parts
on the web, including Russian made Ti frames. Your knowledge of Ti
fabrication is limited to what you read in the popular cycling press and
manufacturers' promotional literature. On the other hand, Gary Helfrich
was one of the founders of Merlin and teaches classes on building Ti
frames. Why do you think anyone is going to believe you over him?
What I find so mind numbingly stupid about you is this. You have a
sideline selling bike parts over the Internet. Logically, readers of
rec.bicycles newsgroups should be your best target customers. Yet in most
of your posts you needlessly anatagonize the very people who are your
prospective customers! Great business strategy! Although I live in Ottawa,
and could easily do business with you, I never will since you are such a
total jerk.
--
Neil Redding
Ottawa, Canada
Gary Helfrich
Ned Endler <n...@RVTinc.com> wrote:
: To address the interest about our alloy, RVT utilizes Ti-5Al-2Mn. We
: chose this alloy due to its unique properties. "5/2" has an
: elongation percentage close to 28%, allowing us to form the tubing
: without compromising structural integrity. Percent elongation is a
: measurement of the strain at the point of fracture of a specimen.
: That is, strain multiplied by 100 equals percent elongation (this
: measurement should be accompanied by a gauge length of the specimen).
: For example, a 2 inch specimen which has a measured strain of 0.0015
: at its failure point would be said to have an elongation of 15% over a
: 2 inch gauge. Summary: a higher elongation percentage is indicative
: of a more ductile alloy. For reference, Ti-3Al-2.5V has an elongation
: percentage around 20% and Ti-6Al-4V has an elongation near 10%. We
: use Ti-5Al-2Mn for another reason; it has a higher tensile strength
: than Ti-3Al-2.5V ("5/2" reaches a 110 ksi ultimate tensile strength
: when annealed).
I am confused by this information and that on your website. On your site,
you have the yield strength of Ti-3Al-2.5V listed as about 70 Ksi.(It is a
bar graph, not real numbers). This is is disagreement with strength
levels measured in the certification of the material. Most Ti-3Al-2.5V
used in bicycles is in the CWSR105 condition and has a guaranteed minimum
yield of 105 Ksi. Typical results are 108-110 Ksi yield and 120 Ksi UTS.
Ti-3Al-2.5 in the annealed condition (fully recrystallized) has a typical
Yield of 80Ksi and 95Ksi UTS. Elongation in this condition is on the
order of 35%. In the CWSR condition, elongation is 18-20%.
Going by the information on your website and that provided above, there is
no compelling advantage to Ti-5Al-2Mn over Ti-3Al-2.5V other than perhaps
availbility. If I am missing something please enlighten me.
: For stress relief, we heat treat the tubing after cold working. Heat
: treating is a valuable procedure as long as the alloy is receptive to
: this process. Aluminum and manganese alloyed with titanium in
: sufficient quantity forms a eutectoid system, which has heat treatable
: properties, Source: Titanium - A Technical Guide, page 35, Matthew
: J. Donachie Jr., Copyright 1988 ASM International.
So are you calling stress relief heat treating? Do you perform this
operation on the bike before or after you weld it? Is there any attempt
at percipitation hardening or is stress relief the only thermal operation
that is done?
No one seemed to know or was going to tell what your source is for tubing.
Is it some sort of secret?
Gary Helfrich
Arctos Machine
Gary Helfrich
: I report what I'm informed by attendees at interbike. You should talk
: about doing research... that bit about Aeroflot had me laughing off my
: chair... manganese isn't a beta stabilizer... oh the list just goes
: on...
I'm flattered that you are so concerned about my comings and goings that
you have assigned some of your minions to keep watch over me at Interbike.
I am glad it is so easy to amuse you. It is interesting how you twist a
sarcastic quip that I made about Aeroflots' safety record into an
inference that I stated that Aeroflot built unsafe airplanes. Try reading
my post again, slowly this time. Use your fingers if it helps.
I made a mistake about the behavior of manganese in titanium alloys, and
admitted that I did. If it brings you pleasure that I am enough of an
adult to admit that I made a mistake, have fun. Some day you might grow
up and be able to do the same.
: > My involvement with Ancotech is more personal than business. I have never
: > received any monetary compensation from the company at any time. They
: > have been very supportive of any projects or research that I am involved
: > in. Many projects that are providing me with a steady income would not
: > have been possible without access to Ancotech lab facilities and
: > engineers.
: And are you paying for the usage of the Ancotech lab facilities and
: engineers or are these perks that they provide for you as a
: consultant? If the latter it sounds like a business relationship to
: me.
You could take that view. I guess that if you allow friends to use any of
your shop tools, that you are paying them as employees. My access to the
facility is based on being friends with the owner and management. The
only consulting I have done in the last year at Ancotech is helping Andy
to decide what brand of beer to stock in the condo at Traverse City.
If Ancotech went out of business, the only change is that we would be in a
tent, and I'd be buying the beer.
: > Checking out the competition is just sound business practice. It does not
: > necessarily constitute an endorsement of the competitions'product.
: So will you be attending the 12th annual Internation titanium conference
: this year? Where the president of the CIS Titanium association will be
: one of the guest speakers... this'll give you an excellent opportunity
: to 'check out' the competition.
Interesting challenge from someone in the bike business that does not even
attend Interbike.
You know all of those pesky "obscure references" of mine that you are
pissing and moaning about? Many of them come from the procedings of the
TDA (I know, they have changed their name) conferences over the years. I
have been getting copies of the proceedings since 1990. How many have you
attended?
This might shock you, but I have even been a speaker at a TDA conference.
That should show you how low their standards are.
: I also notice you haven't yet responded to the RVT posting... amazing
: how you can always find time to respond to my postings (usually to nit-
: pick) but not to others who are actually capable of providing all the
: answers to the juicy questions about alloys and tensile strengths
: that you like to ask.
Ahh, you should know it's just because I care.
Abuse your ISP for bad usenet propagation. Last time I
checked, I asked RVT to answer the same questions that you have been
avoiding.
Gary Helfrich
Arctos Machine
Gary Helfrich
: > The fact that you feel that Russian titanium will have a negative impact
: > on Ancotechs' sales demonstrates your ignorance of the dynamics of the
: > titanium market. Right now there is an acute shortage of input
: > material. The output of Ancotech and many other producers is limited by
: > input material.
: So your saying that a sudden increase in quality russian production
: wouldn't have a negative impact on an american company that can meet
: the demand for themselves?!? Interesting interpretation of supply
: and demand...
Lets see if I can explain this in a way that you can understand. There
are very few reduction plants in the world. Reduction plants are
facilities that can make titanium from raw materials. Even the almighty
CIS has only a handful of these plants. The United States has only two
active ones (Timet and Oremet). This material is then sold to smaller
facilities that will reduce it into tubing, roll it into plate, cast it
into golf heads, etc. There are hundreds if not several thousand of these
facilities in the world. The material then goes to the fabricator who
makes it into a bike, machines it into a hip joint, etc. There are some
facilities that try to integrate several levels together. In this country
Sandvik is a good example of a tube mill that is also a fabricator.
Let's say you run the mill that produces the Ti-5Al-2Mn ingots. There is
a small company called RVT that you sell tubing to. You have a good
relationship and have given them the right to distribute your tubing.
If they sell 10,000 bikes worth of tubing, this will be about 35,000
pounds of tubing, or roughly one ingot. Lets say that this big US tubing
mill approaches you and says that they want to purchase one ingot every
week for the next 5 years. Most of this material may be going to things
like US Navy condenser units which the Russian company cannot bid on in
the first place. It might also find its way into bike tubing as well. Is
the Russian mill going to turn down this opportunity?
: Uh huh. That's not what I hear. What I hear is that people from Ancotech
: are worried that if Russian production ever gets their shit together
: as far as quality control in manufacturing and reliable deliveries
: of materials its gonna mean a big chunk of their business is going
: to go away. From what I've seen of the RVT frames, at least one
: russian factory has their shit together.
Is this another one of your I heard it though the grapevine things?
Which people are worried? Do you even know the names of any of the people
at Ancotech?
I think you should get your ears checked. Who is the source of this
information? If you are indeed that well connected with Ancotech, then
tell us, what percentage of their business is bike tubing? With this
inside track you have, I'm sure that you know who their biggest customer
is. You might entertain us all with your interpretation of the rules by
which foreign firms get to bid on United States Government contracts.
: > I still want information that badly. The RVT homepage is just a bunch of
: > sales hype. C'mon, a "proprietary" method of external butting? I used to
: > own Merlin, remember? Can you say "been there done that"? This is five
: > year old technology.
: Co-own as I recall, with Mike and Gwynn (least every mag always describes
: you as one of three co-founders of Merlin).
True, I had two partners. This still does not chance the fact that
external butting is stone age technology.
: They just don't want to go into a great debate
: with you in the newsgroup (lest this turn into the pedro's scam
: discussion) since your so good at posting errors which I then end
: up catching you on. Trouble is, before I catch you... someone else
: has read the error, considered the much-publicized reputation of
: the poster ("gary helfrich, co-founder of Merlin Titanium,
: industry-watchdog, grandfather of the Ti bike frame, etc") and then
: take what you've said as fact.
Unlike you, I am willing to admit when I have made a mistake. Admitting to
error is a bigger step in establishing credibility than you might think.
If someone reads my post, they will see my admission of error, as well as
my opinion.
Gary Helfrich
Arctos Machine
Scott Brock
Nick Wilde wrote:
>
> In article <52on79$4...@news.wco.com>, Gary Helfrich <lap...@wco.com> wrote:
>
> ->: 5)What else should I know about Titanium?
> ->
> ->DO NOT EVER BUY A BIKE MANUFACTURED IN ONE OF THE CIS COUNTRIES! The Asian
> ->built bikes seem to be fine, but avoid the Boris and Natasha Bicycle Works
> ->at all costs.
>
> Interesting. Can you provide a bit more details/data to back this up? I mean,
> I know you're the ultimate authority on things Ti, and we're not supposed
> to argue when the voice of Gary comes down from on high, but I'd like to
> technical details (at which point I'm lost..). Is it the welding
> technology? The quality of the tubing? All of the above?
All of the above. It takes extra special preparation of the tubing,
excellent Argon gas management skills, an in depth knowledge of the
material
that's being worked, among other things to make a strong weld in
Titanium.
You can believe Gary, I know no one else that knows titanium or the bike
industry better than Gary does.
> Any more info on what to look for/how to judge a Ti frame would be
> sincerely appreciated. I'm seriously in the market for a Ti hardtail
> sometime in the
> next few months. Are the "brand names" - i.e. Merlin, Litespeed, etc., worth
> the $$$ or are you mainly paying for the cachet of the name? I'm inclined
> to believe the latter, but have no firm data to back that up...
You might also look at Habanero bikes, Mark Hickey contributes to this
group
quite often and offers a line of (very) reasonably priced, excellent
quality titanium bikes. Mark is a super nice guy too.
> When not dealing with a household-name brands, how do you tell a good
> builder from a hack? The Ti frame market seems to be the WWW of the MTB
> market these
> days - everybody and their brother is jumping on the bandwagon hoping to
> get rich...
It's tough, as a bad weld can still look OK, the discoloration
indicating
oxygen contamination can be removed. If you have the opportunity, look
down
the seat tube for discoloration, Oxygen contamination of the weld goes
from
a gold or straw colored, through blueing indicating heavy contamination,
to
grey dead looking area surrounding the weld. As Gary will tell you,
Hydrogen
contamination is not readily apparent but will also embrittle the weld.
Ask
them how they prepare the tubing. At the least it should be
ultrasonically
cleaned, as any oil on the tubing (or on the filler rod for that matter)
will cause contamination of the weld. The appearance of the weld can be
an indicator. Look for cratering and undercutting, this is a sign of
inexperience. Again if you see any discoloration don't bother with the
frame. Ask what Titanium alloy is used, it should be 3.5/2 or 6/4, as
these
are significantly stronger than CP. Make sure it's used all throughout
the
frame and not just a top tube or downtube. look for the diameter of the
tubing,
this may not be immediately apparent but you may find a place to measure
it,
it should be somewhere around .9mm or (if it's straight guage tubing)
Be careful. I once stopped into a bike shop to look at their titanium
frame.
It was on a shelf, I picked it up turned it upside down and beadblasting
material
came out of the BB shell. I saw worn stickers and wear marks on the
chainstay
where a chainring had rubbed it, they were selling this frame as new.
I'll be the first to admit that Ti bikes are in some cases overpriced,
but
in their defense it is much more labor intensive than building a steel
or
aluminum bike.
Scott.
Gary Helfrich
: > you kept showing up at the show with sales reps from two of the big
: > US Titanium mills...
: Pardon me while I add a clarification. RVT said that reps from Ancotech
: and other Ti mills, plus people from Litespeed, Merlin, Dean, etc.
: kept showing up every day to ask more questions. Another of my contacts
: from the show mentions (along with telling me about all the v-style
: brakes that everyone is flogging) that he saw Gary and some of the
: reps from the various Ti mills in various booths belonging to companies
: selling Russian Ti frames/parts. Now it seems like an amazing coincidence
First it is RVT and then it is one of your famous "sources". Which is it?
Time for you to get some better sources. I was there with "sales reps
from two of the big US titanium mills"? Now which two mills would these
be? Who were these people? Sorry, but if you are going to invent a story,
you need to have fewer holes in it. Ancotech folks left before I had a
chance to cruise the show, the Sandvik boys think I am some form of pond
scum, and Haynes did not send anyone to the show. It is one thing to just
get your facts wrong, but in this case it seems like you are just making
it up as you go along. Of course, you could have attended Interbike
yourself, but then you could not conveniently duck behind your "sources".
Plain and simple, either you are a liar, or the people you talk to are.
If this is not the case, why not provide some details like what was I
wearing.
If these people saw me with reps from the mills, then what are the names
of the folks that I was seen with?
: "aeroflot makes planes"... oh it is to laugh)
You are the one that said it, not me. What I said was:
"Some people that have been there seem to think that "Aeroflot" is the
Russian word for "Plane Crash"."
Do you see any reference to Aeroflot building aircraft?
If you chose to infer this, fine, attribute it to the correct source,
yourself. It is good to see that you are able to laugh at your own jokes.
: applications for bikes (being the first person credited with making
: a Ti bike frame... WHEN WAS THAT FIRST FRAME PUT TOGETHER, I have a
: source that says a Ti frame was made in Russia in 1976 for their
: Olympic Team, perhaps Gary DIDN"T invent the ti bike frame) was in
: several of these booths at the same time as the reps.
In 1976, you could walk into some of the better bike stores in the United
States or Canada and buy a titanium bike off the shelf. Of course you were
still riding a tricycle at that time, so you might not remember. I was on
drugs at the time, so I sure as shit don't.
I have never claimed to have "invented" the titanium bike. If an
uninformed magazine writer attributes the invention of the titanium bike
to me, there is not much I can do other than deny it. Of course, you have
all of these anonymous sources that you like to quote, so it is hard to
keep up on rumor control.
Gary Helfrich
Arctos Machine
Kristan Roberge
Gary Helfrich <lap...@wco.com> wrote:
> You are the one that said it, not me. What I said was:
>
> "Some people that have been there seem to think that "Aeroflot" is the
> Russian word for "Plane Crash"."
Actually the whole paragraph was...
"Some people that have been there seem to think that "Aeroflot" is the
Russian word for "Plane Crash". What leads you to believe that the
a Russian tractor factory is any different from one that produces aircraft
or nuclear reactors? Please share your information. "
Now to those uninformed about the names of russian airlines, it would
appear that your implying that aeroflot is the name of a factory
aircraft.
>
Kristan Roberge
nred...@magi.com (Neil Redding) wrote:
>
> Kristan,
>
> Why don't you give up. You have a sideline selling bikes and bike parts
> on the web, including Russian made Ti frames.
Correct. And Gary also has a sideline selling custom made Titanium
parts (that's what Arctos Machine does, among other things). So how
am I any different than Gary. You have noticed that his signature file
lists his company name have you not?!?
> Your knowledge of Ti
> fabrication is limited to what you read in the popular cycling press and
> manufacturers' promotional literature. On the other hand, Gary Helfrich
> was one of the founders of Merlin and teaches classes on building Ti
> frames. Why do you think anyone is going to believe you over him?
AHA! "gary did this" "gary founded that" big deal. Just because he
knows how to weld titanium doesn't mean he knows everything their is
to know about the stuff. He's made that clear in this discussion already.
> What I find so mind numbingly stupid about you is this. You have a
> sideline selling bike parts over the Internet. Logically, readers of
> rec.bicycles newsgroups should be your best target customers. Yet in most
> of your posts you needlessly anatagonize the very people who are your
> prospective customers! Great business strategy! Although I live in Ottawa,
> and could easily do business with you, I never will since you are such a
> total jerk.
I really couldn't care less. If your so blind as to believe EVERYTHING
you read that Gary or anyone else (including myself) ever posts as
100% gospel truth then your not someone I'd want as a customer. If people
ask questions / make odd statements that attract my attention then
I'm gonna respond in my own fashion... brutal honesty. I don't care
if i lose a potential customer because of it because I rather lose
an educated customer than gain one who's completely clueless.
Gary Helfrich
Organization: West Coast Online, Inc.
Distribution:
Kristan Roberge <krob...@magi.com> wrote:
: nred...@magi.com (Neil Redding) wrote:
: >
: > Kristan,
: >
: > Why don't you give up. You have a sideline selling bikes and bike parts
: > on the web, including Russian made Ti frames.
: Correct. And Gary also has a sideline selling custom made Titanium
: parts (that's what Arctos Machine does, among other things). So how
: am I any different than Gary. You have noticed that his signature file
: lists his company name have you not?!?
Gary does what? Share your your information with the world. Quote me
some prices from the Arctos catalog. The parts produced by Arctos
are used by other manufacturers...dropouts, binders, fork crowns etc. I
run a regular old CNC job shop. I also build bikes as a hobby. The only
thing I sell to the general public is the Universal One-Speed Tool, and
they sure ain't "custom".
Most of my parts lately are aluminum, but who cares when you are making it
up?
You seem to have this odd need to manufacture information about me. The
truth is weird enough so why not stick to it?
Gary Helfrich
Arctos Machine
Gary Helfrich
Organization: West Coast Online, Inc.
Distribution:
Kristan Roberge <krob...@magi.com> wrote:
: Gary Helfrich <lap...@wco.com> wrote:
: > You are the one that said it, not me. What I said was:
: >
: > "Some people that have been there seem to think that "Aeroflot" is the
: > Russian word for "Plane Crash"."
: Actually the whole paragraph was...
: "Some people that have been there seem to think that "Aeroflot" is the
: Russian word for "Plane Crash". What leads you to believe that the
: a Russian tractor factory is any different from one that produces aircraft
: or nuclear reactors? Please share your information. "
: Now to those uninformed about the names of russian airlines, it would
: appear that your implying that aeroflot is the name of a factory
: aircraft.
Maybe to you. I would have thought they built nuclear reactors. If your
active fantasy life is aided in the belief that I was refering to aircraft
manufacture, then good for you.
By the way, I'm still waiting for the update to your Interbike spy report
on my movements.
Gary Helfrich
Arctos Machine
Kristan Roberge
Scott Brock <sbr...@td2cad.intel.com> wrote:
>
>
> All of the above. It takes extra special preparation of the tubing,
> excellent Argon gas management skills, an in depth knowledge of the
> material
> that's being worked, among other things to make a strong weld in
> Titanium.
Its not that BLACK of an artform if they can teach it to several classes
of students at the United Bicycle Institute every year. There are
no shortage of good welders out there and also no shortage of bad
welders.
> You can believe Gary, I know no one else that knows titanium or the bike
> industry better than Gary does.
I can think of a few, alas none of the post all that often.
> You might also look at Habanero bikes, Mark Hickey contributes to this
> group quite often and offers a line of (very) reasonably priced, excellent
> quality titanium bikes. Mark is a super nice guy too.
Mark's frames are made in china from Ti 3-2.5. Hmmm, a communist
country making a excellent quality Ti frame... nah... must be
an illusion.
> It's tough, as a bad weld can still look OK, the discoloration
> indicating oxygen contamination can be removed. If you have the opportunity, look
> down the seat tube for discoloration, Oxygen contamination of the weld goes
> from a gold or straw colored, through blueing indicating heavy contamination,
> to grey dead looking area surrounding the weld.
Ahhh, you've looked inside the tubing of the Samson Ti frames also...
Ever see the frames with the double-welds (both inside and outside) ?!?
> frame. Ask what Titanium alloy is used, it should be 3.5/2 or 6/4, as
> these are significantly stronger than CP. Make sure it's used all throughout
> the frame and not just a top tube or downtube. look for the diameter of the
> tubing, this may not be immediately apparent but you may find a place to measure
> it, it should be somewhere around .9mm or (if it's straight guage tubing)
They are stronger, but that doesn't make them a neccessity. You can
still build a good frame out of lower grade alloys, you just need to
use more material (which does tend to eliminate dents). There are
over a half dozen grades of CP Titanium and each varies in strength.
There's a chart on the Titanium Industries Homepage of the Ti alloys
they offer... http://infoweb.magi.com/~kroberge/kmrtop.html. Hmmm,
ALL Ti 3-2.5 or 6-4... well, that eliminates the new merlin budget-frame
as a good bike then... by your reasoning...
Kristan Roberge
Gary Helfrich <lap...@wco.com> wrote:
>
> Organization: West Coast Online, Inc.
> Distribution:
>
> Kristan Roberge <krob...@magi.com> wrote:
> : >
> : > Kristan,
> : >
> : > Why don't you give up. You have a sideline selling bikes and bike parts
> : > on the web, including Russian made Ti frames.
>
> : Correct. And Gary also has a sideline selling custom made Titanium
> : parts (that's what Arctos Machine does, among other things). So how
> : am I any different than Gary. You have noticed that his signature file
> : lists his company name have you not?!?
>
> Gary does what? Share your your information with the world. Quote me
> some prices from the Arctos catalog. The parts produced by Arctos
> are used by other manufacturers...dropouts, binders, fork crowns etc. I
> run a regular old CNC job shop. I also build bikes as a hobby. The only
> thing I sell to the general public is the Universal One-Speed Tool, and
> they sure ain't "custom".
So you don't sell those hand-polished, custom-sized Ti stems anymore?!?
> You seem to have this odd need to manufacture information about me. The
> truth is weird enough so why not stick to it?
Hey, I've got bike accessory guides which list Arctos Machine as a
maker of custom Ti parts and accessories. Course you could always complain
to Bicycling, MBA, Mountain Bike, and Mountain Biking for printing
lies about you. Course they could be talking about another Arctos
machine...
Tx Zen
Kristan Roberge wrote:
>
> Rockwell is even going to far as to
> build a facility in russian.
Wow, simply by changing the _language_ that you speak while building the
plant will improve the alloy?
Suddenly I get the mental image of Rockwell constuction foreman yelling
at the workers in Russsian...on the site of the new plant in Deluth
Minn.
Greg Thrash
I have been following this thread for a couple of days, and it
leads me to wonder; why is Gary Helfrich so aggressively critical of
Russian Titanium, and bikes that are built out of it? Clearly in the
past there have been efforts to use Russian Ti with less than
spectacular results.. But RVT believes that they have a good product
at a reasonable cost, with some interesting features. If they are
producing an inferior product, the market will slap them harder than
Gary ever could, yet he seems to be on a mission to ruin them. Has
he ever ridden an RVT bike? If not, then how can he say wether the
product is good or not?
I would like to hear from some people who have
purchased and ridden an RVT bike. I would tend to trust a few
positive or negative reviews more than endless bickering about wether
Ti-3Al-2.5V has a UTS of 70 or 108 ksi. That kind of talk gets us
nowhere. Obviously this particular type of titanium has different
characteristics that the usual Ti you find on bikes. The interesting
question is wether this material imparts a unique feel on the ride
or handling characteristics of the bicycle.
Before I get caught up in this argument, I would just like to
say that I am offended by the rude and agressive nature with which Gary
Helfrich has pursued this issue, not necessarily the points
he is trying to make, nor the validity of those points.
His efforts here have only succeeded in convincing me
to avoid any product associated with him in the future. I feel
that there are proper and improper ways to address issues, especially
if you have a reputation as something of an expert.
Greg
P.S. Interesting and possibly pertinant facts..
Titanium can indeed be heat treated. While Ti-3Al-2.5V and Ti-6Al-4V
are usually annealed (the stress relief Gary talked about),
Ti-6Al-4V can also be solution treated and age hardened, which
increases the strength over the annealed state.
_Machinery's_Handbook_24_ states that "Beta and alpha-beta alloys
are designed for formability; they are formed in the soft state and
then heat treated for for high strength" (p. 544)
I would assume that this means that the Ti-5Al-2Mn could
be heat treated, in the traditional sense of the word.
Kristan Roberge
Greg Thrash <gwth...@ucdavis.edu> wrote:
>
> I have been following this thread for a couple of days, and it
> leads me to wonder; why is Gary Helfrich so aggressively critical of
> Russian Titanium, and bikes that are built out of it?
Good question, good luck getting an answer from him.
> past there have been efforts to use Russian Ti with less than
> spectacular results..
The Raleigh-Russian Ti venture springs to mind, as do those Samson Ti
frames with the bad welds.
> But RVT believes that they have a good product
> at a reasonable cost, with some interesting features.
They believe in it enough to offer a lifetime warranty with a crash-replacement
offer where you get a new frame for 90% of the wholesale price. How
many other Ti frames (or any other hi-performance frame?!?) include
a lifetime warranty these days that ISN"T specifically voided by
crashing or racing?!?
> I would like to hear from some people who have
> purchased and ridden an RVT bike.
I can only provide the following quote from the dealer's guide...
"I love this bike, it's light, nimble, and lively. I feel very relaxed
and confident on my SVIR" - Jesse Goldsmith (4 time AZ state XC champion,
2 time AZ state cyclocross champion, 2 time CO state cyclocross champion).
'So if anyone in CO or AZ knows Jesse, or how to get ahold of him they
can ask for a detailed opinion of the frames.
Tho X. Bui (bleep@mwci.net)
Gary Helfrich wrote:
>... I checked their web page. They seem to have a problem with the
> accuracy of their information. The yield strength of Ti-3Al-2.5V is
> listed as 70Ksi. I have a stack of certifications from Haynes, Ancotech,
> and Sandvik here, and none of them show a yield strength lower than 108Ksi
> for material in the CWSR105 condition. (This is the most common spec used
> in the bike industry).
I suspect the inaccuracy is due to the fact that most specifications require
that 3-2.5 must have yield strength of 70 ksi MINIMUM. The NOMINAL value,
of course, is much higher.
> If yield strength and elongation were the be all and end all of titanium
> bicycle applications, Ti-15V-3Cr-3Sn-3Al would have taken over the market.
> Ancotech and others have made 15-3-3-3 tube. It is not that expensive and
> it responds well to heat treatment. The real life performance of the
> material was disappointing, however.
We (my source of paychecks) process gobs of this stuff (15-3-3-3). Care to
elucidate this claim, Gary? I've heard it from another informal source. Is
it a construction (e.g., welding contamination) problem or something inherent
in the material?
tho
Eric W. Bryant
Kristan Roberge (Krob...@magi.com) wrote:
:* Scott Brock <sbr...@td2cad.intel.com> wrote:
:* > You might also look at Habanero bikes, Mark Hickey contributes to this
:* > group quite often and offers a line of (very) reasonably priced, excellent
:* > quality titanium bikes. Mark is a super nice guy too.
:*
:* Mark's frames are made in china from Ti 3-2.5. Hmmm, a communist
:* country making a excellent quality Ti frame... nah... must be
:* an illusion.
:*
Not to nit-pick (although that does seem to be fairly popular recently),
but there's a big difference between Russia's and China's current levels
of industry and technology. Besides, Russia is no longer a communist
nation, so that wouldn't even figure into anyone's arguements.
--
Eric Bryant Electrical Engineering undergraduate
ewbr...@mtu.edu Michigan Technological University
finger ewbr...@kirchhoff1.ee.mtu.edu for various info
Neil Redding
In article <531f9u$s...@news.istar.ca>, Kristan Roberge <krob...@magi.com>
wrote:
>They believe in it enough to offer a lifetime warranty with a crash-replacement
>offer where you get a new frame for 90% of the wholesale price. How
>many other Ti frames (or any other hi-performance frame?!?) include
>a lifetime warranty these days that ISN"T specifically voided by
>crashing or racing?!?
>
The Merlin and Litespeed lifetime warranties are not voided by racing.
William Kellagher
>In article <52k42g$d...@thrush.sover.net>,
>Michael Formica <sk...@sover.net> wrote:
>>OK, so Im in the market for a new frame, and decided to get (finally!,
>>after 3 suspension frames in a row), a stiff frame.
>>I looked at the Merlin demo's they had at the VT festival today, and
>>plan on checking out a dean and a litespeed.
>>A few questions.
>>1)Are there any other reputable makers of titanium frames available in
>>the NE?
>
Since I haven't seen an actual answer to this question yet, I thought I'd
chime in. Yes, Serrota makes excellent titanium frames and they are located
somewhere around the Saratoga Springs/Glenns Falls area of New York. They've
moved in the last few years and I don't remember the name of the little town
they moved to. In any event, here's they're phone number: 1-800-338-0998.
Bill Kellagher
Boulder, CO
late of the Saratoga Velo Club/Jack's Cyclery Team
David Blake
Greg Thrash wrote:
[snip]
> Before I get caught up in this argument, I would just like to
> say that I am offended by the rude and agressive nature with which Gary
> Helfrich has pursued this issue, not necessarily the points
> he is trying to make, nor the validity of those points.
>
> His efforts here have only succeeded in convincing me
> to avoid any product associated with him in the future. I feel
> that there are proper and improper ways to address issues, especially
> if you have a reputation as something of an expert.
I dunno. If I were to spend the last decade (at least) being one
of the best makers of titanium bikes and had been asked to
speak about titanium at conferences, I suspect I would be a
little aggressive towards someone that sells bikes and has
done a little research on the topic, especially if his research
led him to conclusions that were different from my own.
Or, put another way, I can empathsize with where Gary is coming
from.
--
Dave Blake
dbl...@phy.ucsf.edu
http://www.keck.ucsf.edu/~dblake
Ron G.@ Police Bicycle Technology Inc.
Greg Thrash wrote:
>
>
> Before I get caught up in this argument, I would just like to
> say that I am offended by the rude and agressive nature with which Gary
> Helfrich has pursued this issue, not necessarily the points
> he is trying to make, nor the validity of those points.
Just wondering, how do you feel about the way Kristan "brutaly honest"
Roberge handles this issue. when Kristan starts welding his own frames
together i might begin to listen to him. (though i doubt it.)
Ron G.@ Police Bicycle Technology Inc.
> : Ti frames are poorly built nor do they all use low-grade scrap Titanium.
> : A fact Gary seems unwilling or unable to accept. The russian produce
> : enough high-grade titanium alloy that Rockwell Internationl (the manufacturer
> : of the SpaceShuttle), and General Electric (one of the largest aircraft
> : engine manufacturers in the USA) among others have certified them
> : aerospace production in the USA. Rockwell is even going to far as to
> : build a facility in russian.
>
> just have not seen an example yet. US builders by no means have a monopoly
> on well made titanium bikes. I have seen Chinese, Canadian, and Taiwanese
> bikes that appeared to be very well designed and constructed.
>
> spent some time with one of the people who is working on negotiating on
negotiating the sale of Rockwell to BOEING, and there was(and is) no
mention of this "factory"....not to say theycouldn't make decent bike
there...rode a wolf creek once..not bad......
Your source wouldn't happen to be a
> sales person from RVT?
>
> Arctos Machine
Ron G.@ Police Bicycle Technology Inc.
Kristan Roberge wrote:
>
> Greg Thrash <gwth...@ucdavis.edu> wrote:
> >
> > I have been following this thread for a couple of days, and it
> > leads me to wonder; why is Gary Helfrich so aggressively critical of
> > Russian Titanium, and bikes that are built out of it?
>
> Good question, good luck getting an answer from him.
>
> > past there have been efforts to use Russian Ti with less than
> > spectacular results..
>
> The Raleigh-Russian Ti venture springs to mind, as do those Samson Ti
> frames with the bad welds.
Kristan,
i'm sur eyou realize that those "russian-raleigh" ti bikes were built
by Dan Levy at Ti-Cycles in Seattle with tubes from Sandvik...maybe your
mind shouldn't do so much "springing"
Kristan Roberge
Kinda makes them something other than russian then doesn't it?!? Kinda
contradicts all the press-releases from Raleigh where they made a big
deal about there new Ti frames using russian tubing (it was listed in
several magazines at BT-01 alloy). Seems odd to me that Sandvik would be
supplying russian made tubing.
--
Kristan Roberge
KMR Cycles Online
http://infoweb.magi.com/~kroberge/kmrtop.html
TedHas
In article <52tr1r$a...@news.istar.ca>, Kristan Roberge <Krob...@magi.com>
writes:
>ted...@aol.com (TedHas) wrote:
>>
>> In article <52qa0m$n...@news.istar.ca>, Kristan Roberge
<krob...@magi.com>
>> writes:
>>
>> >Depends on which russians your talking about. Its safe to say those
>> working
>> >for the space industry or one of the leading aerospace firms are
>> >gonna build to a higher degree of quality than those at a farm-tractor
>> >factory.
>> >
>> My Litespeed farm-tractor is faster than those poorly built Ruskie
>> ti-farm-tractors and it's stiffer in a rocky ground sprint.
>
>No argument there... but the key word is 'poorly' built. Not all russian
>Ti frames are poorly built nor do they all use low-grade scrap Titanium.
>A fact Gary seems unwilling or unable to accept. The russian produce
>enough high-grade titanium alloy that Rockwell Internationl (the
manufacturer
>of the SpaceShuttle), and General Electric (one of the largest aircraft
>engine manufacturers in the USA) among others have certified them
>aerospace production in the USA. Rockwell is even going to far as to
>build a facility in russian.
>
Yikes! I had no intention of contributing anything substantive to this
debate. I just had an urge to comment on the (what seemed to me anyway)
humorous image of a titanium farm-tractor. And I have an aversion to
smileys to show when I've made a joke (maybe if my jokes don't improve,
I'll have to resort to them). Anyway, I have no idea as to the merits of
any of these arguments regarding titanium sources, alloys, quality
standards, etc. But I do have a Litespeed bicycle that I've been quite
satisfied with, other than the motor.
--Ted Haskell
Ron G.@ Police Bicycle Technology Inc.
remember, this IS raleigh we're talking about. none of that should
surprise you.
Cheers!
Ron
TBGibb
In article <52vdta$5...@news.istar.ca>, Kristan Roberge <krob...@magi.com>
writes:
>Gary Helfrich <lap...@wco.com> wrote:
>
>> You are the one that said it, not me. What I said was:
>>
>> "Some people that have been there seem to think that "Aeroflot" is the
>> Russian word for "Plane Crash"."
>
>Actually the whole paragraph was...
>
>"Some people that have been there seem to think that "Aeroflot" is the
>Russian word for "Plane Crash". What leads you to believe that the
>a Russian tractor factory is any different from one that produces
aircraft
>or nuclear reactors? Please share your information. "
>
>Now to those uninformed about the names of russian airlines, it would
>appear that your implying that aeroflot is the name of a factory
>aircraft.
>>
FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!
The obvious intent of the "Plane Crash" quip refers to the quality of
Russian technology. Although I suspect that, with time, that quality will
improve, for now they are stuck with "quality" leftover from the Soviet
era. The question is, can bicycle manufacturers (not Rockwell) purchase
Ti tubing from Ivan and Rosa and know that it will have the kind of
consistent, certifiable quaility that they can get purchasing in the west?
Someone the size of Rockwell is big enough to test the quailty of the
materials they buy and have the economic clout to make people want to
provide what they want. But Harry's Bikes and Frames has no such clout or
capability. Apple and Oranges.
Let's get this thing back on track. The ancient Greeks called what you
are doing "diverting the argument."
Tom Gibb <TBG...@aol.com>
and...@inforamp.net
OK guys lets keep our apples and oranges in separate baskets please.
The Russian Ti Ralieghs were from Raleigh England NOT Raleigh USA.
I too remember the magazine articles,(early '93? '94?) they further
went on to claim that the tube was a 1.5/1 alloy. As late as '95 they
were building Sampson Ti bikes from this tube (at least according to
Sampsons frame spec sheets). This is from memory I no longer have any
supporting info but it should be verifiable.
WHICH BTW brings me to another point. I am on Garys side in this issue
there is way to much opinion being posted here as fact. Facts differ
from marketing in one major way, Facts can be checked, and authoritive
sources cited. Un-named sources and Insiders have no value, neither
does the marketing division of a manufacturor wether it is RVT, GT,
Trek or whatever. Gary is able to cite sources Kristian is not ( or
at least is not willing to).
My opinions on the issue in question? For what they are worth, I've
been able to examine closly only two types of Russian Ti bikes
1)The Maxam Ti made in Russia (according to their data sheet) from
Russiam Ti. Those bikes were crap, Very bad welds (uneven in size,
large gaps and lots of the white crusty stuff (tm)) the frames (2)
were out of alignment by .75" in one case and one of the head tubes
was oval rather than round.
2)The Sampson from Raleigh England, Looked to be well made.
Quality Assurance, TFI Aerospace
my views in no way represent those of my employer
Martin Goldstein
This thread is beginning to look like roadkill. Too much blood and guts
all over the place and not enough meat to make a decent stew. Could you
two please stick to facts only and cut out the sniping. As for myself, I
would only purchase a titanium frame from an established builder with a
known source of supply. It's too large an investment, in time, money and
safety, to play games or take risks.
Martin(USA)
Morris H. Wheeler
I love this thread. It kind of reminds me of a sitcom series. Will you
two end up sleeping together during next seasons series premier???
Kristan Roberge
and...@inforamp.net wrote:
> WHICH BTW brings me to another point. I am on Garys side in this issue
> there is way to much opinion being posted here as fact. Facts differ
> from marketing in one major way, Facts can be checked, and authoritive
> sources cited. Un-named sources and Insiders have no value, neither
> does the marketing division of a manufacturor wether it is RVT, GT,
> Trek or whatever. Gary is able to cite sources Kristian is not ( or
> at least is not willing to).
Think of me as a reported, I report what I know (regardless of the
source, if I feel its reliable I report it), you either choose to
believe me or not. I really don't care.
As for checking facts, its a fact that gary has made mistakes in the past
,which he usually admits to ONLY if its pointed out to him by someone
else first. I'm one of the people in this newsgroup who looks for
his mistakes, call it a personal vendetta if you like but if he's
regarded by about 99% of this newsgroup as THE authority on Ti frames
then he should also be expected to NOT make any mistakes in his postings.
The reason for this is simple, if people like me didn't catch his errors,
would anyone ever doubt ANYTHING he posts?!? If I hadn't had been reading
through the webpage for Titanium Industries and found their list of
beta stabilizers, would anyone ELSE had realized last week that Gary
made a mistake by saying the manganese wasn't a beta-stabilizer?!? I
certainly wouldn't have realized it. It was simply bad timming for
gary that I had read the list only hours before reading his posting.
> My opinions on the issue in question? For what they are worth, I've
> been able to examine closly only two types of Russian Ti bikes
> 1)The Maxam Ti made in Russia (according to their data sheet) from
> Russiam Ti. Those bikes were crap, Very bad welds (uneven in size,
> large gaps and lots of the white crusty stuff
A local shop has one, this one is also suffering from oxygen contamination,
its the simple rainbow-colors on the inside welds (that's right, there's
evidence that they ran the welder on the inside joints as well, supposedly
it makes for a stronger joint but they apparently didn't get alot
of inert-gas into the tube with the welder in there already. The frame
is in alignment though, and its also cheap, no very cheap, no cheaper
than that.
Scott Brock
Kristan Roberge wrote:
> Its not that BLACK of an artform if they can teach it to several classes
I didn't say it was a black artform, I just said it's tougher to make a
good weld with Titanium due to it's affinity for common elements at
welding temperatures, and the precautions one must take to ensure
there is no weld contamination. Everything must be immaculate and free
from oil, the tubing, the weld rod, the jigs, gloves, everything. If
you've visited a welding shop, you know what they're normally like. It
also
requires more Argon than welding Steel and Aluminum due to the flooding
gas and
backing gas required, and that stuff's expensive (at least to me it is).
> of students at the United Bicycle Institute every year. There are
> no shortage of good welders out there and also no shortage of bad
> welders.
The actual welding itself is only part of the process of building a
titanium frame. There is a whole lot of preparation work involved.
For me, welding titanium is no more challenging than welding stainless.
> > You can believe Gary, I know no one else that knows titanium or the bike
> > industry better than Gary does.
>
> I can think of a few, alas none of the post all that often.
A difference of opinion. Who are the people you're thinking of?
> Mark's frames are made in china from Ti 3-2.5. Hmmm, a communist
> country making a excellent quality Ti frame... nah... must be
> an illusion.
So, what's your point?
> Ahhh, you've looked inside the tubing of the Samson Ti frames also...
Can't say that I have, I've not seen any of these carried by the major
shops
in the bay Area. My point here was that it's easy to look down the seat
tube of a titanium frame to look for signs of contamination. This was in
response to the question posed, "How does one tell the difference
between
a good builder and a hack?", independent of country of origin. I didn't
see
a post addressing this question particularly. What are you're
suggestions?
> They are stronger, but that doesn't make them a neccessity. You can
> still build a good frame out of lower grade alloys, you just need to
> use more material (which does tend to eliminate dents). There are
Which makes it a heavier frame, which starts to eliminate the reasons
for
using titanium in the first place and makes steel and aluminum more
attractive
for frames in low and mid price range.
> over a half dozen grades of CP Titanium and each varies in strength.
> There's a chart on the Titanium Industries Homepage of the Ti alloys
> they offer... http://infoweb.magi.com/~kroberge/kmrtop.html. Hmmm,
> ALL Ti 3-2.5 or 6-4... well, that eliminates the new merlin budget-frame
> as a good bike then... by your reasoning...
You're right, I personally wouldn't buy a frame made with CP. But I will
be the
first to say that in my opinion Merlin makes the best welds I've ever
seen, and
if cost were no object the Merlin top of the line MTB frame would be my
first choice.
Let me ask you this; Given the size of Merlin, the quantity of titanium
tubing they
must purchase from their suppliers, and their clout in the industry, how
much do you
think Merlin saves in raw materials costs by substituting CP for alloy
Ti for that
one tube in the Merlin budget frame?
Hey, it's nice to know someone reads my posts. Thanks for your reply
Kristan.
Scott.
Kristan Roberge
Scott Brock <sbr...@td2cad.intel.com> wrote:
> The actual welding itself is only part of the process of building a
> titanium frame. There is a whole lot of preparation work involved.
> For me, welding titanium is no more challenging than welding stainless.
I've fiddled with welding aluminum and titanium, and various steel
alloys. Its no biggy once you get the techniques down, I prefer the
self-taught route for most of my side-projects, currently I'm looking
at fillet-brazing a new frame this winter, I can get columbus tubesets
and fittings at wholesale and I have a design for a full-suspension
stuck in my head that I want to try. I suppose I could just as easily
do it in Ti or Aluminum, but I personnally think steel is still the
best material for bikes (and there are no shortage of well-made, under
4 Ibs steel frames out there).
> A difference of opinion. Who are the people you're thinking of?
Let's see... gotta dig thru a few mags to get the correct name spellings...
Mark and David Lynskey of Litespeed
Mike Augspurger of One-Off Titanium (who also co-founded Merlin with Gary H.
and is also the co-inventor of the modern floating drivetrain bike,
his partner was Roo Trimble, and their limited production of bikes
were made in 1993 - two years before Trek's Y-bikes made a splash on
the market)
Chris Chance of Fat City cycles
> a good builder and a hack?", independent of country of origin. I didn't
> see
> a post addressing this question particularly. What are you're
> suggestions?
I've seen a few sampson's with minor signs of oxygen-contamination
of the welds.
> > They are stronger, but that doesn't make them a neccessity. You can
> > still build a good frame out of lower grade alloys, you just need to
> > use more material (which does tend to eliminate dents). There are
>
> Which makes it a heavier frame, which starts to eliminate the reasons
> for
> using titanium in the first place and makes steel and aluminum more
> attractive
> for frames in low and mid price range.
Actually the first Ti frames made by gary H. himself weren't all that
light, as I recall he's mentioned several times that they weighed in
the 4 Ibs and over range and tended to be overbuilt. People still wanted
to buy the damn things though. I think people are more concerned
with Ti reputation for corrosion resistance and the myth of it being
an indesstructle alloy for bike frames than the actual weight. Currently
you can get LIGHTER frames from Steel, aluminum, or Carbon-fiber if you
know where to look. For a given strength, a frame made of Aermet 100 will
be lighter than one made of Ti 3-2.5, but won't have its corrosion
resistance. A frame made out of carbon-fiber would be both lighter
and stronger, and with an exotic alloy like albemet, things just get
silly (things get even sillier with a pure beryillium frame, bitch
to weld, bitch to machine, bloody expensive but untouchable in the
strength to weight department.
> Let me ask you this; Given the size of Merlin, the quantity of titanium
> tubing they
> must purchase from their suppliers, and their clout in the industry, how
> much do you
> think Merlin saves in raw materials costs by substituting CP for alloy
> Ti for that
> one tube in the Merlin budget frame?
Not all that much, Litespeed is able to turn out a budget frame that's
full Ti 3-2.5 for less money than a merlin. RVT does a pretty good job
with their SVIR models (they now have a lower price, straight-gauge
model that's a bit heavier than their double-butted version), Gonzo
Titanium sells a brand called KGB that's using russian-supplied tubing
that's pretty decent for the price. The problem I see though is, people
thinking that they'll get the same quality and value from a Ti frame
that costs $850 US as from one that costs $1200 US. Now if both frames
are sourced from the same country (either as a source of the raw billet,
tubes, or finished frames) then you have to suspect costs were cut somewhere.
Kristan Roberge
tbg...@aol.com (TBGibb) wrote:
>
> The obvious intent of the "Plane Crash" quip refers to the quality of
> Russian technology. Although I suspect that, with time, that quality will
> improve, for now they are stuck with "quality" leftover from the Soviet
> era.
And my point was, there isn't anything wrong with the russian aircraft
technology. But if the planes are being properly maintained anymore,
or are flying with partially filled fuel-tanks due to cash shortages
with Aeroflot, then the likelyhood of the planes crashing goes up.
People shouldn't blame the manufacturers because the users of the
products don't want to spend the money to maintain the products.
The cost to perform the routine maintenance on a single jetliner
is quite high, and running a fleet of them drives the costs up.
>The question is, can bicycle manufacturers (not Rockwell) purchase
> Ti tubing from Ivan and Rosa and know that it will have the kind of
> consistent, certifiable quaility that they can get purchasing in the west?
Yes. RVT is using certifiable quality tubing, and they aren't a large
manufacturer like Litespeed or Merlin.
> Let's get this thing back on track. The ancient Greeks called what you
> are doing "diverting the argument."
uh huh.
Kit Cheves
In article <53a78g$2...@news.istar.ca>, Kristan Roberge <krob...@magi.com>
wrote:
> For a given strength, a frame made of Aermet 100 will
> be lighter than one made of Ti 3-2.5, but won't have its corrosion
> resistance.
Now this is interesting. As I recall, Mr. Roberge is the person who was
touting the corrosion resistance of Aermet a while back, citing it's use
in Naval landing gear struts and it's 'near stainless' composition. Based
on this 'Titanium Frames' thread, I have no doubt that if Gary H. were to
make such a shift in position Kristan would accuse him of of lying and
technical incompetence.
Kit Cheves
kch...@qualcomm.com
Gary Helfrich
Tho X. Bui (bl...@mwci.net) <bl...@mwci.net> wrote:
: Gary Helfrich wrote:
: >... I checked their web page. They seem to have a problem with the
: > accuracy of their information. The yield strength of Ti-3Al-2.5V is
: > listed as 70Ksi. I have a stack of certifications from Haynes, Ancotech,
: > and Sandvik here, and none of them show a yield strength lower than 108Ksi
: > for material in the CWSR105 condition. (This is the most common spec used
: > in the bike industry).
: I suspect the inaccuracy is due to the fact that most specifications require
: that 3-2.5 must have yield strength of 70 ksi MINIMUM. The NOMINAL value,
: of course, is much higher.
The minimum yield in the CWSR105 condition is 105 ksi. A quick average of
certifications in my files gives a nominal yield of 112 ksi. The low was
108 and the high was 125. This is a random sampling of 10 years worth of
certification from all three American mills.
For most sports applications, the fully annealed material (which is 70
ksi min yield) is only used when the material will be further manipulated.
Examples would be tapered chain stays, baseball bats, etc. The front
triangle tubes in a bike are generally in the CWSR105 condition.
I took exception to the information in the RVT web page because anyone who
is involved in titanium bike production should have been aware of what
specification is currently being used.
: > If yield strength and elongation were the be all and end all of titanium
: > bicycle applications, Ti-15V-3Cr-3Sn-3Al would have taken over the market.
: > Ancotech and others have made 15-3-3-3 tube. It is not that expensive and
: > it responds well to heat treatment. The real life performance of the
: > material was disappointing, however.
: We (my source of paychecks) process gobs of this stuff (15-3-3-3). Care to
: elucidate this claim, Gary? I've heard it from another informal source. Is
: it a construction (e.g., welding contamination) problem or something inherent
: in the material?
Welding is still a big issue with 15-3-3-3. Most of the attempts so far
have exhibited low fatigue life and low ductility. Why? I don't know.
Welds between 15-3-3-3 and Ti-3Al-2.5V have been stronger than ones
between 15-3-3-3 and itself in most cases. There seems to be a lot of
research that needs to be done. The welds tested had contamination levels
as low or lower than that which will cause a problem with Ti-3Al-2.5.
The tube mills love 15-3-3-3. You can get huge reduction ratios with it,
lowering the processing costs and the number of anneals that you need to
do in order to produce a finished tube. The biggest sports use right now
appears to be baseball bats. Some hockey and lacrosse sticks are being
produced as well.
The modulus is slightly lower than Ti-3Al-2.5V. The density is also
slightly higher. Well made Ti-3Al-2.5V bikes have very low failure rates,
so the higher strength is not that compelling in most cases. When higher
strength is needed, builders use Ti-6Al-4V because is is a known
quantity when it comes to welding.
The biggest compliant I've heard so far is poor availablitiy of the
material. No one seem to be able to get material on a reliable basis.
This is the most basic reason why 15-3-3-3 is not more widely used. If
the material is hard to obtain, and research on its' performance is
incomplete, most bike companies will not bother with it.
Gary Helfrich
Arctos Machine
Gary Helfrich
Organization: West Coast Online, Inc.
Distribution:
Kristan Roberge <Krob...@magi.com> wrote:
: Gary Helfrich <lap...@wco.com> wrote:
: >
: > Organization: West Coast Online, Inc.
: > Distribution:
: >
: > Kristan Roberge <krob...@magi.com> wrote:
<My own snide quips snipped>
: So you don't sell those hand-polished, custom-sized Ti stems anymore?!?
Not since 1991, when I sold the stem operation to Ibis.
: > You seem to have this odd need to manufacture information about me. The
: > truth is weird enough so why not stick to it?
: Hey, I've got bike accessory guides which list Arctos Machine as a
: maker of custom Ti parts and accessories. Course you could always complain
: to Bicycling, MBA, Mountain Bike, and Mountain Biking for printing
: lies about you. Course they could be talking about another Arctos
: machine...
I've got a bridge in the New York area that you might be interested in,
then. Some day you may discover that the cycling press is not the most
accurate source of information.
Ask your "sources" what booth I was working at Interbike and what good or
services I was trying to sell.
Gary Helfrich
Arctos Machine
Gary Helfrich
Organization: West Coast Online, Inc.
Distribution:
Morris H. Wheeler <mowh...@interramp.com> wrote:
: I love this thread. It kind of reminds me of a sitcom series. Will you
: two end up sleeping together during next seasons series premier???
Even better: I discover that Kristen is my long lost illegitimate son, who
was conceived in the back of the Aerosmith crew bus during the "Lost
Cities of North America" tour of the Canadian provincial capitols.
Gary Helfrich
Arctos Machine
Kristan Roberge
I never said its corrosion resistance matched that of Titanium's. I also
never said it was 'near stainless'. What I said was that it had high
resistance to corrosion, better than most other high-strength steel
alloys used in bike frames. It has been using in landing gear struts
and other places as well. It was chosen for that application more
for its better strength to weight ratio than titanium that any inherent
corrosion resistance.
Kristan Roberge
I'd be surprised if you could name all of our provincial capitals.
Mark Hickey
Gary Helfrich <lap...@wco.com> writes:
> Morris H. Wheeler <mowh...@interramp.com> wrote:
> : I love this thread. It kind of reminds me of a sitcom series. Will you
> : two end up sleeping together during next seasons series premier???
>
> Even better: I discover that Kristen is my long lost illegitimate son, who
> was conceived in the back of the Aerosmith crew bus during the "Lost
> Cities of North America" tour of the Canadian provincial capitols.
>
> Gary Helfrich
> Arctos Machine
Is it safe to come back in now?
Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.cynetfl.com/habanero/
Jeff Matson
I think so. I've been watching from the wings since this started, and they
seem to have cooled down significantly from the initial bout of flames. As an
added benefit, the facts have become somewhat clearer for everyone, and I at
least have some new insights on building w/ Ti, and all of the crap that can
go with it.
JSM
Tom Hansen
In article <538upj$b...@news.istar.ca>, Kristan Roberge <krob...@magi.com>
wrote:
>
> source, if I feel its reliable I report it), you either choose to
> believe me or not. I really don't care.
>
> As for checking facts, its a fact that gary has made mistakes in the past
> ,which he usually admits to ONLY if its pointed out to him by someone
> else first.
If we could point out our own mistakes, we wouldn't make them in the first
place, would we?
I'm one of the people in this newsgroup who looks for
> his mistakes, call it a personal vendetta if you like but if he's
> regarded by about 99% of this newsgroup as THE authority on Ti frames
> then he should also be expected to NOT make any mistakes in his postings.
> The reason for this is simple, if people like me didn't catch his errors,
> would anyone ever doubt ANYTHING he posts?!? If I hadn't had been reading
> through the webpage for Titanium Industries and found their list of
> beta stabilizers, would anyone ELSE had realized last week that Gary
> made a mistake by saying the manganese wasn't a beta-stabilizer?!? I
> certainly wouldn't have realized it. It was simply bad timming for
> gary that I had read the list only hours before reading his posting.
Your arm must be getting sore. You've patted yourself on the back a number
of times for that one.
--
Tom Hansen
Owings Mills, MD
Dion Dock
> Not all that much, Litespeed is able to turn out a budget frame that's
> full Ti 3-2.5 for less money than a merlin. RVT does a pretty good job
> with their SVIR models (they now have a lower price, straight-gauge
> model that's a bit heavier than their double-butted version), Gonzo
> Titanium sells a brand called KGB that's using russian-supplied tubing
> that's pretty decent for the price. The problem I see though is,
> people
> thinking that they'll get the same quality and value from a Ti frame
> that costs $850 US as from one that costs $1200 US. Now if both frames
> are sourced from the same country (either as a source of the raw
> billet,
> tubes, or finished frames) then you have to suspect costs were cut
> somewhere.
My understanding is that most of the "Russian" Ti bikes cost around
$1200 for a frameset. If that is the case, I can see no reason to
buy one over a comparibly priced Litespeed or other established,
trusted brand.
In other words, they either have to be much cheaper or much better if
they are going to compete with the existing manufacturers. And from
what I've seen in this discussion, they are neither.
-dion
Kristan Roberge
Dion Dock <dion_...@mentorg.com> wrote:
> My understanding is that most of the "Russian" Ti bikes cost around
> $1200 for a frameset. If that is the case, I can see no reason to
> buy one over a comparibly priced Litespeed or other established,
> trusted brand.
Unfortunetly your understanding is wrong. Most fall into the $850 and
under price range with some frames like the Maxam Ti's (which make good
paperweights) coming in around $500.
> In other words, they either have to be much cheaper or much better if
> they are going to compete with the existing manufacturers. And from
> what I've seen in this discussion, they are neither.
The problem is, and gary has mentioned this before in other discussions,
that the prices between different grades of Ti alloys aren't that far
apart, and its the manufacturing process of the frame itself where much
of the costs are involved. You have to assume that if Merlin sells a
entry-level frame with CP grade-4 Ti stays at a price similar to
litespeed's entry level model (which is full Ti 3-2.5) then their
manufacturing costs are higher. So going the much cheaper route
generally means either less quality in the manufacturing or lesser
grades of Ti alloys. As for much better, well, that depends on the what
the other brands offer at a comparable price. But if Company A from
russia offers a frame at the same price as Company B from China and
Company C from the USA, and all three frames have similar quality welds
and general construction, then I'd pick the frame based on other factors
such as the warranty (including any limitations on such things as
racing or abuse... RVT's crash-replacement policy for example includes
frames damaged by forgetting your bike is on the roof-rack when you drive
into the garage), the specific alloy(s) used, the frame design itself,
fittings on the frame, size choices, frame weights, etc. I wouldn't
base my decision simply on a name-brand.
Michael Formica
>I think so. I've been watching from the wings since this started, and they
>seem to have cooled down significantly from the initial bout of flames. As an
>added benefit, the facts have become somewhat clearer for everyone, and I at
>least have some new insights on building w/ Ti, and all of the crap that can
>go with it.
I just wanted some general information.
I think I now know more than enough.
Problem is. . .I can't decide what frame to get!
Choices Choices Choices
Michael Formica
sk...@sover.net
http://www.sover.net/~skunk
It's Vermont and It's Cold
David LaPorte (Biochem)
Kristan Roberge (Krob...@magi.com) wrote:
: Gary Helfrich <lap...@wco.com> wrote:
: >
: > Organization: West Coast Online, Inc.
: > Distribution:
: > : I love this thread. It kind of reminds me of a sitcom series. Will you
: > : two end up sleeping together during next seasons series premier???
: >
: > Even better: I discover that Kristen is my long lost illegitimate son, who
: > was conceived in the back of the Aerosmith crew bus during the "Lost
: > Cities of North America" tour of the Canadian provincial capitols.
: I'd be surprised if you could name all of our provincial capitals.
From Gary's description of his past, if he was really in that bus, he
probably didn't even know what COUNTRY he was in.
To make this post even more off-topic (but then why should *I* miss all
the fun?):
When the Toronto Blue Jays won the world series, a TV reporter asked the
mostly-American players what the capitol of Canada was. The first two or
three had no idea and then one asked tentatively "Is it Ottawa?"
Our knowledge of the geography of our Northern neighbor is not good. This
is in contrast with Kristan, who can undoubtedly name the capitols of all
of our states
. . . Sorry. . . I feel better now. ;-)
Dave LaPorte
Beginning Road Racing Program
St. Paul Bicycle Racing Club
dav...@microbe.med.umn.edu
612/639-1771 (Home)
612/625-4983 (Work)
Neil Redding
In article <53f8l6$c...@news.istar.ca>, Kristan Roberge <krob...@magi.com>
wrote:
But if Company A from
>russia offers a frame at the same price as Company B from China and
>Company C from the USA, and all three frames have similar quality welds
>and general construction, then I'd pick the frame based on other factors
>such as the warranty (including any limitations on such things as
>racing or abuse... RVT's crash-replacement policy for example includes
>frames damaged by forgetting your bike is on the roof-rack when you drive
>into the garage), the specific alloy(s) used, the frame design itself,
>fittings on the frame, size choices, frame weights, etc. I wouldn't
>base my decision simply on a name-brand.
One thing you should think about when deciding based on warranty. The
warranty is only as good as the company offering it. How much is the
warranty on a Clark Kent frame worth now? This could help tip your
decision in favour of a larger company which is more likely to be around
when you need warranty service.
--
Neil Redding
Ottawa, Canada
Kristan Roberge
nred...@magi.com (Neil Redding) wrote:
> One thing you should think about when deciding based on warranty. The
> warranty is only as good as the company offering it. How much is the
> warranty on a Clark Kent frame worth now? This could help tip your
> decision in favour of a larger company which is more likely to be around
> when you need warranty service.
Not alot, but then Clark-Kent was in business making Ti frames for almost
10 years, so one shouldn't assume companies like Litespeed or Merlin
are going to be around forever as well. Remember, when Schwinn went
bankrupt a few years ago, all the warranties became null and void. I'm
not sure how the buyout by Scott Bicycles affected the old warranties
but I bet that prior to the buyout, alot of schwinn owners were up the
duff.
David Greene
David LaPorte (Biochem) wrote:
> Our knowledge of the geography of our Northern neighbor is not good. This
> is in contrast with Kristan, who can undoubtedly name the capitols of all
> of our states
There's an old saying that (US) Americans are innocently ignorant of the world,
while Canadians are maliciously knowledgable of the United States.
:-)
-David
Mike
Kristan Roberge wrote:
: I never said its corrosion resistance matched that of Titanium's. I also
: never said it was 'near stainless'. What I said was that it had high
: resistance to corrosion, better than most other high-strength steel
: alloys used in bike frames. It has been using in landing gear struts
: and other places as well. It was chosen for that application more
: for its better strength to weight ratio than titanium that any inherent
: corrosion resistance.
More likely, Aermet 100 was chosen for its high toughness, which allows for
a larger critical flaw size. Inspection for cracks, which still occur, is
easier with less chance for errors. Also, toughness is good because it
increases the chance for ductile failure instead of brittle failure. If
strength/weight and corrosion resistance were the most important things,
we'd see lots more ceramic and glass everything.
In picking a material, I think possible failure mode should be more
important. I'd rather have my bike frame bend than go "snap". How is the
toughness and fracture phenomena of Al (probably bad) and Ti (???). I only
know a little steel, none of those fancy-pants new fangled metals.
Thanks all for reinforcing the importance of design and fabrication over
material choice. I wouldn't want a bike frame made by an idiot, even if it
was unobtanium/drillium/plutonium/kryptonite.
Mike Johnson - CSM Dept of Metallurgical and Materials Eng - Golden CO
Strip mines prevent forest fires!!!
Gary Helfrich
Organization: West Coast Online, Inc.
Distribution:
David LaPorte (Biochem) <dav...@lenti.med.umn.edu> wrote:
: Kristan Roberge (Krob...@magi.com) wrote:
: : Gary Helfrich <lap...@wco.com> wrote:
: : >
: : > Organization: West Coast Online, Inc.
: : > Distribution:
: : >
: : > Morris H. Wheeler <mowh...@interramp.com> wrote:
: : > : I love this thread. It kind of reminds me of a sitcom series. Will you
: : > : two end up sleeping together during next seasons series premier???
: : >
: : > Even better: I discover that Kristen is my long lost illegitimate son, who
: : > was conceived in the back of the Aerosmith crew bus during the "Lost
: : > Cities of North America" tour of the Canadian provincial capitols.
: : I'd be surprised if you could name all of our provincial capitals.
: From Gary's description of his past, if he was really in that bus, he
: probably didn't even know what COUNTRY he was in.
Sure I did. You could get dilaudid really cheap in Yellowknife. Or was it
Whitehorse? It couldn't have been St. John's, cause that was where the
crew chief got thrown in jail for trying to molest a halibut. How come
they put pictures of beavers on their money, anyway?
Gary Helfrich
Arctos Machine
Richard Strayer
>: From Gary's description of his past, if he was really in that bus, he
>: probably didn't even know what COUNTRY he was in.
>
>Sure I did. You could get dilaudid really cheap in Yellowknife. Or was it
>Whitehorse? It couldn't have been St. John's, cause that was where the
>crew chief got thrown in jail for trying to molest a halibut. How come
>they put pictures of beavers on their money, anyway?
>
>Gary Helfrich
>Arctos Machine
Since when has it been illegal to molest a halibut in St. John's?
Goodness how things have changed!
RES
Thomas H. Kunich
In article <53gh7n$q...@news.istar.ca>,
Kristan Roberge <Krob...@magi.com> wrote:
>Not alot, but then Clark-Kent was in business making Ti frames for almost
>10 years, so one shouldn't assume companies like Litespeed or Merlin
>are going to be around forever as well.
Excuse me? 10 years? Where were they selling these titanium bikes?
randal...@gmail.com
There has been some vigorous debate over the reality of a Russian Alfa class submarine being scrapped in the USA in 1996. Is there any corroborating information available?
Thanks,
Randy Daniels Atlanta, GA
AMuzi
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/navy-could-hear-alfa-class-submarine-coming-could-it-outrun-one-183576
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
John B.
decommissioned and scrapped in Russia, the last as of April 19, 1990.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfa-class_submarine
--
Cheers,
John B.