REI brand bikes?

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Heath WInslow

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May 7, 2001, 12:04:25 AM5/7/01
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REI sells bikes under the Novara name now. Did they used to sell them under
Parkpre? If not, where have I heard of Parkpre bikes before? I saw one the
other day, not a bad looking bike, appeared to be about 4-6 years old
judging by components and the Rock Shox fork. And also, who makes REI's
bikes?


Rich Clark

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May 7, 2001, 9:50:11 PM5/7/01
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"Heath WInslow" <shv...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:1apJ6.3$VF4...@news2.atl...

> REI sells bikes under the Novara name now. Did they used to sell them
under
> Parkpre? If not, where have I heard of Parkpre bikes before? I saw one the
> other day, not a bad looking bike, appeared to be about 4-6 years old
> judging by components and the Rock Shox fork.

AFAIK Parkpre was an independent manufacturer that has not been heard from
lately.

>And also, who makes REI's
> bikes?

Again AFAIK, they are actually designed by someone specifically for REI;
certainly the frames, while not always exceptionally unique, are not
identical to anyone else's. They're made in Taiwan (at least the ones I've
looked at are), so it's entirely possible they're coming out of a Giant
factory. Or not. Doesn't really matter; it's REI that markets and backs
them. If you look at a Novara Randonee, for example, you'll see a touring
bike which, while not cutting edge or innovative, is clearly not identical
to any other touring bike on the market. And their Carema really is unique
and instantly identifiable, a women-specific design available nowhere else.

RichC

David L. Johnson

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May 7, 2001, 10:31:43 PM5/7/01
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Rich Clark wrote:
>
> And their Carema really is unique
> and instantly identifiable, a women-specific design available nowhere else.

And it works out perfectly for my wife, too.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Some people used to claim that, if enough monkeys sat in front
_`\(,_ | of enough typewriters and typed long enough, eventually one of
(_)/ (_) | them would reproduce the collected works of Shakespeare. The
internet has proven this not to be the case.

Gregory White

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May 8, 2001, 6:11:10 PM5/8/01
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Heath WInslow wrote:

> If not, where have I heard of Parkpre bikes before?

I think Parkpre sponsored the Shaklee pro team some years back. If I'm not
mistaken, it would have been during the Sally Zack era.

gw


Lee Bower

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May 14, 2001, 12:13:20 AM5/14/01
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REI financially supports the green peace groups that try to close trails to
bicycles, dirt bikes and waterways for personal watercraft.

Lee


"Heath WInslow" <shv...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:1apJ6.3$VF4...@news2.atl...

David L. Johnson

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May 14, 2001, 12:48:26 AM5/14/01
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Lee Bower wrote:
>
> REI financially supports the green peace groups that try to close trails to
> bicycles, dirt bikes and waterways for personal watercraft.

And we certainly wouldn't want to restrict your access to pristine wilderness
trails with your dirt bikes and ATV's, or prevent you from jet-skiing up some
mountain stream.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | "It doesn't get any easier, you just go faster." --Greg LeMond
_`\(,_ |
(_)/ (_) |

Raymond

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May 14, 2001, 8:45:55 AM5/14/01
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I do and am proud to support REI. I love mountain biking and work to support it
but realize that many riders do cause both enrivonmental and social problems by
how they choose to ride. They ride on trails where they cause damage to the
environment and harass other trail users. Yes, many "green peace groups" as you
refer to them as, take a incorrect attitude towards bicycles and call for
regulations that will ban them from many places they can be ridden responsibly.
However, just because a engage in incorrect activity is not a reason to demonize
they all or even all the actions of those groups.

George F. Johnson

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May 14, 2001, 9:53:49 AM5/14/01
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>REI financially supports the green peace groups that try to close trails to
>bicycles, dirt bikes and waterways for personal watercraft.
>

Sounds good to me. I knew there was a good reason for my being an REI member
for the past 30 years.

George F. Johnson

Jobst Brandt

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May 14, 2001, 1:58:12 PM5/14/01
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Lee Bower writes:

> REI financially supports the green peace groups that try to close
> trails to bicycles, dirt bikes and waterways for personal
> watercraft.

You say "green peace groups" with a tone of xenophobia. I hadn't
heard of such a designation but I think with the W. Bush
administration, we'll hear more of this. Not only am I in favor of
protecting wilderness but I wish most of the MTB guys would pack up
and leave my Santa Cruz Mountains, where bicycles are no longer
welcome in many of my favorite back roads. Keep out signs,
specifically with "No Bicycles" have closed many places that I rode
before the gonzo pseudo motorcycle types took over the hills.

Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>

Doug Huffman

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May 14, 2001, 3:51:10 PM5/14/01
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Then you should remember when it was a true co-op operated by volunteers led
by Whittaker and I was proud to be a member. You might remember Yvon and
Royal as climbers rather than business men and when their companies were
interested in market share rathern than environmental impact.

I will not give Patagonia my custom. I avoid REI unless it is a real deal.
I buy seconds and overstocks and remember my days in the Valley. Sic
transit gloria mundi.

--
Grasping another opportunity to be wrong!
"George F. Johnson" <gfjoh...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20010514095349...@ng-fq1.aol.com...

Matt O'Toole

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May 14, 2001, 5:02:59 PM5/14/01
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"Jobst Brandt" <jbr...@hpl.hp.com> wrote in message
news:9dp6bk$ln3$4...@hplms2.hpl.hp.com...

The "keep out" signs exist because the hills have been taken over by
wealthy, well-connected, white-flight suburbanites and pot-addled, granola
munching hermits who believe they're entitled to control the *public* land
surrounding their estates, as if it were their own private ranch or country
club. Keeping the public out makes their property more exclusive, and
boosts their property values. This is at the heart of any access situation
I've come across. Trail conflicts, etc., are a load of crap. In the real
world, trail users get along, respect residents, and generally behave. It
bugs the hell out of me when the press picks this up to milk a witless
"controversy" angle, which just spins the whole thing further into the hands
of the exlusivist yuppie dude ranchers. Get a clue, and don't feed the
selfish, nasty natives. It's our land, not theirs. They paid for and got
their lovely acre, but not the whole damned National Forest.

Matt O.


JS

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May 14, 2001, 5:24:57 PM5/14/01
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Don't know enough about green peace, nor do I support them. But, if they're
keeping dirt bikes off the trails, then more power to them. I'm an avid
backpacker and the last thing I want to see on the trails is a dirt bike
speeding throughout the backcountry trails and destroying everything in its
path.

"Lee Bower" <thespl...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:AXIL6.1293$gc1.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

Jobst Brandt

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May 14, 2001, 5:25:04 PM5/14/01
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Matt O'Toole writes:

>>> REI financially supports the green peace groups that try to close
>>> trails to bicycles, dirt bikes and waterways for personal
>>> watercraft.

>> You say "green peace groups" with a tone of xenophobia. I hadn't
>> heard of such a designation but I think with the W. Bush
>> administration, we'll hear more of this. Not only am I in favor of
>> protecting wilderness but I wish most of the MTB guys would pack up
>> and leave my Santa Cruz Mountains, where bicycles are no longer
>> welcome in many of my favorite back roads. Keep out signs,
>> specifically with "No Bicycles" have closed many places that I rode
>> before the gonzo pseudo motorcycle types took over the hills.

> The "keep out" signs exist because the hills have been taken over by
> wealthy, well-connected, white-flight suburbanites and pot-addled,
> granola munching hermits who believe they're entitled to control the
> *public* land surrounding their estates, as if it were their own
> private ranch or country club. Keeping the public out makes their
> property more exclusive, and boosts their property values. This is
> at the heart of any access situation I've come across. Trail
> conflicts, etc., are a load of crap.

I think if you look at any MTB magazines, you'll see the macho image
portrayed there and how a land owner would have nothing to do with
such behavior. I speak from experience having refereed collisions of
MTB motorcycle rudeness with riders on trails and having been subject
to insults from the downhill bombers who ride from pickup truck to
pickup truck. The same ranches where we used to talk to owners are
today posted with no-bicycling signs. You can also listen to the
bravado stories some of these folks tell about their bold maneuvers.

> In the real world, trail users get along, respect residents, and
> generally behave.

Generally is not good enough. Besides, the guiding image from the
press does not support that picture. The basics are that enough MTB
riders have no interest in nature, the out doors, birds, wildlife or
flowers. It's an obstacle course, nothing more.

> It bugs the hell out of me when the press picks this up to milk a
> witless "controversy" angle, which just spins the whole thing
> further into the hands of the exlusivist yuppie dude ranchers.

I see you have enough contempt for landowners to express exactly what
has moved land owners to dislike MTB riders who believe they have a
right to trespass in a gonzo manner. Your attitude is not concealed.

> Get a clue, and don't feed the selfish, nasty natives. It's our
> land, not theirs. They paid for and got their lovely acre, but not
> the whole damned National Forest.

Your position is so extreme that I must suspect you are being
facetious. This cannot be your true position on such an obvious
matter.

Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>

George F. Johnson

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May 14, 2001, 9:49:04 PM5/14/01
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Doug Hoffman wrote:

>Then you should remember when it was a true co-op operated by volunteers led
>by Whittaker and I was proud to be a member. You might remember Yvon and
>Royal as climbers rather than business men and when their companies were
>interested in market share rathern than environmental impact.
>

I do remember.

>I will not give Patagonia my custom. I avoid REI unless it is a real deal.
>I buy seconds and overstocks and remember my days in the Valley. Sic
>transit gloria mundi.
>

So do I.


George F. Johnson

Tim McNamara

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May 14, 2001, 11:32:57 PM5/14/01
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In article <20010514214904...@ng-fq1.aol.com>, George F.
Johnson <gfjoh...@aol.comnospam> wrote:

> Doug Hoffman wrote:
>
> >Then you should remember when it was a true co-op operated by volunteers led
> >by Whittaker and I was proud to be a member. You might remember Yvon and
> >Royal as climbers rather than business men and when their companies were
> >interested in market share rathern than environmental impact.
> >
>
> I do remember.

It's still a co-op. It is still incorporated as a cooperative and
remains guided by the Cooperative Principles developed by the Rochdale
"Pioneers." Members continue to receive a discount via a patronage
refund, also in keeping with the Cooperative Principles. Granted, it's
now a huge cooperative rather than a buying club, which was its
original incaration according to the company literature, and it
certainly feels more corporate than Gorp.

My local natural foods store is a co-op. Land O' Lakes is a co-op.
Dairyland Power is a co-op. Cenex is a co-op. There are thousands of
cooperatives and metacooperatives in the United States and other
countries of all sizes and persuasions. Here in Minnesota there are
many cooperatives of all kinds from little granola joints to huge
friggin' co-ops with millions and millions of dollars in revenue, which
is part is due to the Finnish influence.

Don't like how it's run? Run for the Board and make a difference.

> >I will not give Patagonia my custom.

Me neither. When I buy stuff like that I get it from Wintergreen in
Ely MN. Wintergreen stuff is the real deal for cold weather gear.

Jeffrey Williams

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May 15, 2001, 8:23:42 AM5/15/01
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Can you suggest good alternatives to REI? When it comes to camping/hiking/etc
gear, I've encountered few brick-and-mortar stores with anything close to the
same level of selection. REI may not be cheap, but they've got good stuff and
usually have some knowledgeable staff on hand.

Jeff

terry morse

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May 15, 2001, 11:16:47 AM5/15/01
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Jobst Brandt wrote:

> Not only am I in favor of
> protecting wilderness but I wish most of the MTB guys would pack up
> and leave my Santa Cruz Mountains, where bicycles are no longer
> welcome in many of my favorite back roads. Keep out signs,
> specifically with "No Bicycles" have closed many places that I rode
> before the gonzo pseudo motorcycle types took over the hills.

Care to share some of your routes that are still open to bikes? I rode
to Half Moon Bay for the first time last weekend, via the Purisima
Creek (dirt) Road. The descent was easy, even though I was on slick
tires. I'm looking for more back roads to try.

--
terry morse
Palo Alto, CA
http://www.terrymorse.com/bike/

Jobst Brandt

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May 15, 2001, 12:53:28 PM5/15/01
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Terry Morse writes:

> Care to share some of your routes that are still open to bikes? I
> rode to Half Moon Bay for the first time last weekend, via the
> Purisima Creek (dirt) Road. The descent was easy, even though I was
> on slick tires. I'm looking for more back roads to try.

I don't think I should be posting routes that constitute trespassing
and I see no advantage to describing them to others. In contrast,
roads that have been illegally usurped by "git offa my land" type
recluses, should be tested in court. Sunday I rode up Mt Loma Prieta
and south along Summit Rd to Mt Madonna Rd, a beautifully sceninc
route where about a five miles section has rude "Keep Out" ,"Private
Road" signs at steel gates that seem always to be open judging from
the dust and dirt.

I drove these roads by car long before there were any houses there.
These folks didn't build the road nor do they own it but they pretend
to. They hate bicyclists as the big signs with a red circle with a
bicycle crossed out indicate. I have had confrontations.

It's a beautiful route with great vistas to the Santa Clara Valley and
west to Monterey as it runs along the ridge. It is mostly down hill
from Loma Prieta, the 3786ft peak with a jungle of antennas. Mt Bache
road from Summit and Highland Way is the direct route although Loma
Prieta Ave gets there too. For some reson the map shows roads in faded
magenta around the peak, although they are no less substantial roads.

http://terraserver.homeadvisor.msn.com/image.asp?S=12&T=2&X=754&Y=5133&Z=10&W=2

Ormsby Cutoff, the horisontal road at the bottom of the following map
has an array of these signs at the junction in the lower right:

http://terraserver.homeadvisor.msn.com/image.asp?S=12&T=2&X=756&Y=5129&Z=10&W=2

Summit Road about 3 miles either side of the junction with Ormsby Cutoff
is also gated and signed. As is apparent, the road is the top ot the ridge:

http://terraserver.homeadvisor.msn.com/image.asp?S=12&T=2&X=758&Y=5129&Z=10&W=2

Ride bike!

Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>


Jobst Brandt

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May 15, 2001, 1:16:19 PM5/15/01
to
Terry Morse writes:

> Care to share some of your routes that are still open to bikes? I
> rode to Half Moon Bay for the first time last weekend, via the
> Purisima Creek (dirt) Road. The descent was easy, even though I was
> on slick tires. I'm looking for more back roads to try.

I don't think I should be posting routes that constitute trespassing
and I see no advantage to describing them to others. In contrast,
roads that have been illegally usurped by "git offa my land" type

recluses, should be tested in court. Sunday I rode from Palo Alto, up
Alpine Rd to HWY35 (Skyline Blvd) and south past HWY17 to the Summit
Store. From here I took Highland Way to Mt Bache Rd and rode up Mt
Loma Prieta 3786ft and then south along Summit Rd to Mt Madonna Rd, a
beautifully sceninc route, where about a six mile section has rude
"Private Road", "Keep Out" signs at steel gates at either end that
seem always to be open, judging from the dust and dirt.

I drove these roads by car long before there were any houses there.

These folks didn't build the road nor do they own it, but they pretend


to. They hate bicyclists as the big signs with a red circle with a
bicycle crossed out indicate. I have had confrontations.

It's a beautiful route with great vistas to the Santa Clara Valley and

west to Santa Cruz and Monterey as it runs along the ridge. It runs


mostly down hill from Loma Prieta, the 3786ft peak with a jungle of
antennas. Mt Bache road from Summit and Highland Way is the direct
route although Loma Prieta Ave gets there too. For some reson the map
shows roads in faded magenta around the peak, although they are no

less substantial roads. The black letters "Spr" give the location of
and all year ice cold spring with shady trees below the peak.

http://terraserver.homeadvisor.msn.com/image.asp?S=12&T=2&X=754&Y=5133&Z=10&W=2

Ormsby Cutoff, the horisontal road at the bottom of the following map,
has an array of rude signs at the junction of Buzzard Lagoon Rd,
Highland Way and Eureka Canyon Rd in the lower right:

http://terraserver.homeadvisor.msn.com/image.asp?S=12&T=2&X=756&Y=5129&Z=10&W=2

Summit Road, about 3 miles either side of the junction with Ormsby
Cutoff, is also gated and signed. As is apparent from the contours,
Summit Road is on the top ot the ridge:

Matt O'Toole

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May 15, 2001, 3:07:05 PM5/15/01
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"Jobst Brandt" <jbr...@hpl.hp.com> wrote in message
news:9dro93$bg$2...@hplms2.hpl.hp.com...

> I don't think I should be posting routes that constitute trespassing
> and I see no advantage to describing them to others. In contrast,
> roads that have been illegally usurped by "git offa my land" type
> recluses, should be tested in court. Sunday I rode from Palo Alto, up
> Alpine Rd to HWY35 (Skyline Blvd) and south past HWY17 to the Summit
> Store. From here I took Highland Way to Mt Bache Rd and rode up Mt
> Loma Prieta 3786ft and then south along Summit Rd to Mt Madonna Rd, a
> beautifully sceninc route, where about a six mile section has rude
> "Private Road", "Keep Out" signs at steel gates at either end that
> seem always to be open, judging from the dust and dirt.
>
> I drove these roads by car long before there were any houses there.
> These folks didn't build the road nor do they own it, but they pretend
> to. They hate bicyclists as the big signs with a red circle with a
> bicycle crossed out indicate. I have had confrontations.

Yeah, people post illegal signs around here, too. There are a even a few
who regularly sic their dogs on us, and shoot at us with rock salt- while
we're riding on state and county roads.

This is what I was referring to yesterday. But my main point is that
simple, selfish yokelism seems to be at the heart of every (trumped up)
complaint about out of control mountain bikers. And the Ted K.'s aren't the
biggest problem- it's the people who live in new tract homes near
trailheads, who don't want the public on "their" trails. I agree that the
"rad" mountain biker images in the press are not helpful. But in my
experience, mountain bikers are incredibly well behaved, especially
considering how rotten Californians can be otherwise, while driving, etc.
I've seen a few trail mishaps too, but what's notable is how rare they are.

I guess I'm spoiled living in southern CA. We've had hardly any closures
(which are generally respected), and there is virtually no friction between
users. So I can't stand it when the press tries to make it look like
there's conflict, only because they're scraping the bottom of the barrel for
something to write about.

Matt O.


Tim McNamara

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May 15, 2001, 5:18:57 PM5/15/01
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In article <3B011FCE...@dnaent.com>, Jeffrey Williams
<jwil...@dnaent.com> wrote:

> Can you suggest good alternatives to REI? When it comes to camping/hiking/etc
> gear, I've encountered few brick-and-mortar stores with anything close to the
> same level of selection. REI may not be cheap, but they've got good stuff and
> usually have some knowledgeable staff on hand.

Once you factor in your patronage refund (you are a member, right?),
the prices become much more reasonable. They are no more expensive
than EMS or any other comparable sporting goods store locally even
before the partronage refund (typically about 10% of your purchases).

Tim McNamara

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May 15, 2001, 5:25:52 PM5/15/01
to
In article <v7fM6.1853$Uj6....@open-news.pacbell.net>, Matt O'Toole
<ma...@deltanet.com> wrote:

> This is what I was referring to yesterday. But my main point is that
> simple, selfish yokelism seems to be at the heart of every (trumped up)
> complaint about out of control mountain bikers. And the Ted K.'s aren't the
> biggest problem- it's the people who live in new tract homes near
> trailheads, who don't want the public on "their" trails. I agree that the
> "rad" mountain biker images in the press are not helpful. But in my
> experience, mountain bikers are incredibly well behaved, especially
> considering how rotten Californians can be otherwise, while driving, etc.
> I've seen a few trail mishaps too, but what's notable is how rare they are.

Rare, perhaps, but memorable. I have personally been nearly run over
by barely-in-control yahoos on engineless motorcycles- a.k.a.
"freeride" bikes- on four occasions while mountain biking.

The end result is that I no longer ride a mountain bike. I ride a
cyclo-cross bike off-road and the difference in reaction by non-bikers
is amazing. I am treated much more cordially by them, and get to
chuckle about the "whoa, dude, you got no business being out here on a
road bike" ignorance from all too many of the MTB set... mostly as I'm
passing them on their 36 lb bloated double-bouncers.

Jobst Brandt

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May 15, 2001, 6:29:24 PM5/15/01
to
Tim McNamara writes:

> Rare, perhaps, but memorable. I have personally been nearly run
> over by barely-in-control yahoos on engineless motorcycles- a.k.a.
> "freeride" bikes- on four occasions while mountain biking.

The next step is to ride a road bicycle evrywhere, realizing that
unless you are racing in the dirt, the dirt part that a road bicycle
doesn't do at least as well as a fat tired bike is the smallest part
of a ride. Of course if you have a car to bridge the gaps from one
trials section to the next, that's different. If you see what roads
and trails work just fine with a road bike, you'll see that riding
from home instead of trucking to the top of the mountain has great
rewards.

Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>

Graham Pollock

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May 15, 2001, 6:48:19 PM5/15/01
to
Jobst,
I've come across the signs that you mention (on Summit Road, and Ormsby
Cutoff) and so far I've always turned back and taken alternate routes -
confrontation is something I generally shy away from. Are the signs legal ?
how would I go about confirming their legality (or lack thereof) ? I'd love
to try those routes...

The signs on Buzzard Lagoon Road (and several others around the Santa Cruz
mountains) try to discourage non-locals during the winter months. I'm not
aware of any law which would back up such an assertion - if it's a publicly
maintained road then it is open to the public. Any comments or thoughts ?

Stella Hackell

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May 15, 2001, 6:46:20 PM5/15/01
to
In article <AXIL6.1293$gc1.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Lee
Bower" <thespl...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> REI financially supports the green peace groups that try to close trails to
> bicycles, dirt bikes and waterways for personal watercraft.


Sounds good to me! Where do I send my contribution?

Stella "already a member"

--
Stella Hackell ste...@ncal.verio.com

She who succeeds in gaining the mastery of the bicycle will gain the
mastery of life.
--Frances E. Willard, _How I Learned to Ride the Bicycle_

Claire Petersky

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May 15, 2001, 7:59:59 PM5/15/01
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"Doug Huffman" <dhuf...@awod.com> wrote in message
news:9dpcuo$2k3b$1...@george.awod.com...

> Then you should remember when it was a true co-op operated by volunteers
led
> by Whittaker and I was proud to be a member.

I remember before the Capitol Hill store, going to REI with my parents. How
long ago was that -- when I was maybe 4 years old? So about 35 years ago. I
remember a dusty warehouse with stacks of skis in a corner, my parents
looking for camping equipment.

I'm still a member. I ride a Novarra Strada bike. REI is not what it used to
be -- in some ways worse, some ways better -- but that's true about a lot of
things in the general Seattle area that have changed these last 35 years.

--
Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky
cpet...@yahoo.com


Jobst Brandt

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May 15, 2001, 10:11:34 PM5/15/01
to
Graham Pollock writes:

> I've come across the signs that you mention (on Summit Road, and
> Ormsby Cutoff) and so far I've always turned back and taken
> alternate routes - confrontation is something I generally shy away

> from. Are the signs legal? How would I go about confirming their
> legality (or lack thereof)? I'd love to try those routes...

> The signs on Buzzard Lagoon Road (and several others around the
> Santa Cruz mountains) try to discourage non-locals during the winter
> months. I'm not aware of any law which would back up such an
> assertion - if it's a publicly maintained road then it is open to
> the public. Any comments or thoughts?

This goes to court now and then. The last one I read about was a
truck driver who was trying to deliver something up there but wasn't
sure he was on the right road. They gave him a heap of noise and he
went to court. I didn't hear the outcome but in the proceedings it
turns out that the county sheriff patrols these roads and the next
time I rode up Ormsby, I met the sheriff going the other way. When
yelled at, I have ignored the complainer and because they are not
eager to chase, nothing happens.

Once when accosted by two men working on the road, my friend stopped
to engage them in a discussion and then could not continue when they
blocked his way. The old saw about "go back the way you came" was
exercised, which meant that he had to trespass a lot more than if he
had exited by the nearest gate straight ahead where we were going.
They have a grader and do work when needed. That relieves the county
of doing the whole road, leaving only the ends for the road crews. I
think this is one of the reasons the county does not prosecute. There
are similar roads off Gazos Creek after the bridge just before the
hill begins. Although the Casa Loma road between Loma Prieta and the
Almaden Valley (Uvas Rd) is friendlier, they also do some maintenance.
The Loma Alma ridge road has only one contentious resident who doesn't
even claim to maintain the road, only that the road goes through his
yard. That would be Rick Estrada who lives in a hovel just before the
paved road that connects to Hicks Rd at its summit.

As I said, I traveled these roads with my family in my car in the
1960's at a time when the local bikies joined me on Sunday rides from
Palo Alto into the hills that no one knew. Fortunately most of the
land is making its way into the MROSD (Mid Peninsula Open Space
District) preserves.

http://www.openspace.org/catalog.html
http://www.openspace.org/AZUL.html

These maps show what is and what isn't in public ownership but the map
isn't as good as the ones I referenced earlier, there bing no roads
shown.

Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>

Tim McNamara

unread,
May 15, 2001, 11:10:45 PM5/15/01
to
In article <9dsak4$elc$1...@hplms2.hpl.hp.com>, Jobst Brandt
<jbr...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:

That's why I usually ride a Gunnar 'cross bike or a Riv All-Rounder, as
both allow me to use tires big enough for spur of the moment trail
riding in the middle of a road ride (my road race bike, a Ritchey,
could almost do this but the clearances are a smidge tight if there's
mud).

There are really no trails in my area *requiring* a MTB, let alone a
dual-suspension behemoth designed to be ferried to the top of the
mountain by ski lift. My 'cross bike works wonderfully and I don't
have to drive to the ride even with knobbies on it.

terry morse

unread,
May 16, 2001, 11:00:25 AM5/16/01
to
Graham Pollock <graham_...@agilent.com> wrote:

> Jobst,
> I've come across the signs that you mention (on Summit Road, and Ormsby
> Cutoff) and so far I've always turned back and taken alternate routes -
> confrontation is something I generally shy away from. Are the signs legal ?
> how would I go about confirming their legality (or lack thereof) ? I'd love
> to try those routes...

There should be someone at the county transportation authority that can
tell you the right-of-way status of the road. I think that's Santa Cruz
County. Here's a list of county phone numbers:

http://www.co.santa-cruz.ca.us/isd/cophones.htm

Graham Pollock

unread,
May 16, 2001, 1:11:06 PM5/16/01
to
Thanks for the phone numbers Terry.

"terry morse" <tmorse...@terrymorse.com> wrote

Jobst Brandt

unread,
May 16, 2001, 6:11:39 PM5/16/01
to
Lee Bower writes:

> REI financially supports the green peace groups that try to close
> trails to bicycles, dirt bikes and waterways for personal
> watercraft.

Although the tone of folks supporting MTB riding, here, sounds mellow,
on the trail it is often the opposite and it isn't a small proportion
of riders either. The Yahoos who see trails as a motorcycle adventure
and are not out to enjoy the outdoors and tell it like the appended
report. If you read the magazines, its this type of Rambo riding that
sells bicycles to latent juveniles, people who encourage trail closures
by their insensitivity to others and their environment.

Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Forest of Nisene Marks County Park

This route ROCKS. Steady, gradually increasing warm up on Highland
Way is paved. Buzzard and Aptos Creek roads are hard, wide and rarely
muddy. Overview is a good place to re-group and make bike
adjustments. Tighten your chin strap Dewey, 'cause it's singletrack
time along the Ridge Trail. Eye opening shale and mini-roots twist
and tug at the front wheel as you whizz by in a blur, narrowly
escaping through the Sempervirens' grasp. A couple of suprise steep
hills will greet you. Gear down grasshopper, only Myles can pull
these in middle ring.

Between Tractor and Sawpit the steepest little monster you ever seen
awaits. Traction is good, but it will take a Herculean effort to
clean this hill. Nobody will ever believe you made it unless they
witness it. Yes, I made it up on a 26 pound, 4 inch travel full
suspension BoingMaster. Ask the Fox Shox guys. [Yeah, he made it by
bunny hopping up. It's impossibly steep. ]Push YOUR bike up to Sawpit
entrance. Downhill adjustments are in order for the one mile drop.

Watch for water control ditches near the turns and stay on the trail
or uglyness and endo's happen. Wait at the bottom for the rest of the
group, hopefully you were smart enough not to bring any beginers.
Heading back on Hihn's Mill Road gives the XC dudes a chance to spank
the Downhillers back to the parking area. It's about a 10-11 mile
ride. Fall and Summer are the best time of year if your looking for a
tree covered wild ride in the Santa Cruz mountains... SMEDGELATER.


Ben Coleman

unread,
May 17, 2001, 2:22:24 AM5/17/01
to
At the end of the day, it's user conflicts (ie lack of consideration for
others) which causes trail closures more than any other factor. If someone
wanted to enjoy themselves in a different manner to that which you find
enjoyable (within the limitations of stuffing up the environment, eg no
skidding on singletrack) in the middle of nowhere, good on them.

Unfortunately, you will probably find more "yahoo" riders close to cities,
ie in areas with a high number of users, which skews the sample seen by
other users. You would probably find (if you wanted to) a large number of
responsible trail users riding MTBs on secluded trails. That's where peace
and quiet are found, as well as the enjoyment of not having to lose the flow
of the trail in order to not inconvenience/disturb/piss off other trail
users.

As for the "stunt" riding such as North Vancouver which is seen plastered in
the MTB press, bear in mind that those trails are purpose built bike trails
with no user conflict and I believe they are predominantly in logging
regrowth and ski areas. Of course, many of them are also illegal, but
that's another issue entirely!

There's also the dickhead factor, where a certain number of people on
MTB/rollerblade/skateboard/razor scooters/skis/snowboards just happen to be
dickheads who enjoy pissing people off no matter what they are doing.

Ben


Lyle Beidler

unread,
May 17, 2001, 10:24:31 PM5/17/01
to

Doug Huffman wrote:

> . Sic
> transit gloria mundi.
>
> --

Hold on, daggonnit! I've got enough trouble remembering bike jargon, without
you throwing Latin into the mix! ;-)

(must say, though, the scene in last night's "The West Wing" where Martin Sheen
was in the National Cathedral venting at God in Latin was incredible theater...)

--

Lyle and Melissa Beidler lbei...@earthlink.net
Pennsylvanian by birth, Nittany Lion by the grace of God
"Whenever I see an adult on a bicycle,
I no longer despair for the future of the human race." - H.G. Wells


Peter Cole

unread,
May 18, 2001, 12:45:12 PM5/18/01
to
"Jobst Brandt" <jbr...@hpl.hp.com> wrote in message
news:9dutur$1pf$1...@hplms2.hpl.hp.com...

> Lee Bower writes:
>
> > REI financially supports the green peace groups that try to close
> > trails to bicycles, dirt bikes and waterways for personal
> > watercraft.
>
> Although the tone of folks supporting MTB riding, here, sounds mellow,
> on the trail it is often the opposite and it isn't a small proportion
> of riders either. The Yahoos who see trails as a motorcycle adventure
> and are not out to enjoy the outdoors and tell it like the appended
> report. If you read the magazines, its this type of Rambo riding that
> sells bicycles to latent juveniles, people who encourage trail closures
> by their insensitivity to others and their environment.

I think the environmental impact is often misstated or overstated, at least
here in the rolling forests of the NorthEast. Most of the actual impact is
aesthetic (trail widening, braiding) and that is usually much less
significant than similar damage to trails done by water erosion. Both of
these phenomena are exacerbated by poorly laid out trails, either in a
general sense, or specifically for the use of bikes. Within that context of
physical impact though, there is no doubt that inappropriate behavior
compounds the problem. Since cyclists are the new users, the burden is on
them to adjust their activity to suit the existing trail conditions, most
don't.

The "social impact" issue is a more thorny one. The common attitude among
bikers is that "we've got a right to be here, and everybody should just get
over it". In many cases, preserves and reservations exist to provide an
aesthetic experience as well as nature conservation. Given that mission,
there really is no defense against the impact upon other people's aesthetic
sensitivities. I think mountain bikers need to come to terms with that. The
magazines give only the barest lip service to trail etiquette, meanwhile
exhorting behavior which is clearly incompatible. Something's got to give.

I have been on dozens of group mountain bike rides, lead by "responsible
advocates", yet I have never heard the directive to stay to the center of
the trail and lower speed enough to limit the wandering of your track.
Likewise, I haven't seen leaders deliberately avoid braids around obstacles,
chosing to dismount and walk over instead. Most importantly, I have never
seen a leader slow the group to a walking pace and/or stopping when
encountering hikers, always yielding the trail first out of courtesy where
applicable. I don't expect I'll ever see these things in a magazine article
either.

I consider myself an advocate of biking in the woods. I think it can be done
in a manner where it has extremely low impact on the physical and social
environment. At its best, cycling can cover ground efficiently and quietly,
leaving no evidence, like any good woodland activity. But as one
acquaintence said: "I'm not sure I'd want to run into some one like me if I
was hiking." That's the truth, sadly, and those who love cycling on the
trails better wake up to that reality and do something about it. I no longer
buy the magazines and I oppenly oppose racing. I have not lead or joined
group rides in a couple of years, as I have been increasingly disturbed by
the lack of attention to these issues. We need a new set of values. The
party's over.

Matt Bushore

unread,
May 19, 2001, 2:02:36 AM5/19/01
to
Peter Cole wrote:
<<>>
> I consider myself an advocate of biking in the woods. I think it can be done
> in a manner where it has extremely low impact on the physical and social
> environment. At its best, cycling can cover ground efficiently and quietly,
> leaving no evidence, like any good woodland activity. But as one
> acquaintence said: "I'm not sure I'd want to run into some one like me if I
> was hiking." That's the truth, sadly, and those who love cycling on the
> trails better wake up to that reality and do something about it. I no longer
> buy the magazines and I oppenly oppose racing. I have not lead or joined
> group rides in a couple of years, as I have been increasingly disturbed by
> the lack of attention to these issues. We need a new set of values. The
> party's over.


Back in the day, group rides were the primary method of communicating
to new riders the proper way to meet and greet other trail users.

Perhaps my concept of "group ride" is somewhat different, or smaller,
but I think demonstrating to people first hand how to ride and behave
correctly
is really the only way others to learn.

Then again, I'm not entirely hopeful that the skilletheads that make up
the general populace want to learn.

my roadie friends complain about other roadie's poor paceline manners,
weaving, etc.
skiers complain about snowboarders
snowboarders complain about skiers
mountain bikers can generally piss everyone off
even just driving a car subjects a person to abuse

I think the general gist is that above a walking pace, people become
easily irritated, and perhaps their social skills take a nosedive.

my feeling is that it's unfair to characterize this as a problem with
moutain bikers when in reality it's a people problem, and it wouldn't
matter
what mode of transportation they were using.

Matt O'Toole

unread,
May 19, 2001, 5:55:48 PM5/19/01
to

"Matt Bushore" <ma...@jive.net> wrote in message
news:3B060C7C...@jive.net...

> my roadie friends complain about other roadie's poor paceline manners,
> weaving, etc.
> skiers complain about snowboarders
> snowboarders complain about skiers
> mountain bikers can generally piss everyone off
> even just driving a car subjects a person to abuse
>
> I think the general gist is that above a walking pace, people become
> easily irritated, and perhaps their social skills take a nosedive.

I think there's a different reason: whenever the activity has an element of
macho posing to it, as with all of the above, social skills devolve into
displays of aggression. The aggression comes from the frustration of not
being instantly recognized and deferred to as the alpha male.

Matt O.


Matt Bushore

unread,
May 19, 2001, 6:41:04 PM5/19/01
to


interesting. I actually like your take very much on that.

Do you think that what I call "shopping cart rage" fits into this same
sort of thing, or is it a different social defect? You know, that guy
who goes bezerk at having to wait in line at the grocery, or who is
upset
with the pace of some 14 year old kid taking his order at McDonalds.

The trail description that Jobst posted is actually a great place to
ride.
The whole area has great views, good trails, etc. I do wonder if we'd
still
see some kind of backlash against riders purely based on the numbers of
them
if they were all behaving.

My stepmother goes on tirades and rants about cyclists who delay her
drive home.
They live on a popular local biking route ( which in Iowa means you see
a cyclist
a few times a week). In the winter, she is upset that snowmobilers drive
through
"her" yard (even though they are technically in the ditch, which is a
state right of
way they have a legal right to use)


so I guess I don't even see the need for the machismo to enter into the
picture.
Just a person who thinks they are entitled to something.

do trail access problems exist in Sweden? A friend of mine says the
concept
of personal property, or land rather, is foreign, and a person can ride
their bicycle pretty much anywhere.

Peter Cole

unread,
May 20, 2001, 11:06:53 AM5/20/01
to

"Matt Bushore" <ma...@jive.net> wrote in message
news:3B06F680...@jive.net...

>
>
> so I guess I don't even see the need for the machismo to enter into the
> picture.
> Just a person who thinks they are entitled to something.
>

I think you're right, but machismo *is* part of MTB culture, and certainly
doesn't help. The piece Jobst posted pretty well characterizes the MTB
prototypical attitude. I think there is always a "social friction"
("sharing" problems) component, and then an added "xenophobic" part (not
doing my activity, my way), but there is a real feeling among hikers that
their safety is jeopardized by MTB'ers, and that discomfort diminishes their
experience. This could easily be countered with changes to behavior, but to
have these adopted in a widespread fashion would require a lot of
"consciousness raising". Currently, most of the MTB "cultural" outlets (mags
& clubs) set the wrong tone to deal with this problem.


Gregory White

unread,
May 21, 2001, 3:58:56 PM5/21/01
to
Jobst Brandt wrote:

> In contrast,
> roads that have been illegally usurped by "git offa my land" type
> recluses, should be tested in court. Sunday I rode from Palo Alto, up
> Alpine Rd to HWY35 (Skyline Blvd) and south past HWY17 to the Summit
> Store. From here I took Highland Way to Mt Bache Rd and rode up Mt
> Loma Prieta 3786ft and then south along Summit Rd to Mt Madonna Rd, a
> beautifully sceninc route, where about a six mile section has rude
> "Private Road", "Keep Out" signs at steel gates at either end that
> seem always to be open, judging from the dust and dirt.
>
> I drove these roads by car long before there were any houses there.
> These folks didn't build the road nor do they own it, but they pretend
> to.

Who does own the land and the road between Loma Prieta and Mt. Madonna? I had
thought for some time that some of this land was private property -- including
sections of the road. This goes back to my days of doing radio service on Loma
Prieta and Mt. Madonna, but maybe I was misinformed. I recall that "Watson" has a
99 year lease for the top of Loma, but I don't know from whom the lease
originates. The road to the very top of Loma was maintained by Watson, if you
really want to call it "maintenance." We were always instructed to keep all the
gates locked.

gw


Jobst Brandt

unread,
May 21, 2001, 4:50:01 PM5/21/01
to
Gregory White writes:

>> In contrast, roads that have been illegally usurped by "git offa my
>> land" type recluses, should be tested in court. Sunday I rode from
>> Palo Alto, up Alpine Rd to HWY35 (Skyline Blvd) and south past
>> HWY17 to the Summit Store. From here I took Highland Way to Mt
>> Bache Rd and rode up Mt Loma Prieta 3786ft and then south along

>> Summit Rd to Mt Madonna Rd, a beautifully scenic route, where


>> about a six mile section has rude "Private Road", "Keep Out" signs
>> at steel gates at either end that seem always to be open, judging
>> from the dust and dirt.

>> I drove these roads by car long before there were any houses there.
>> These folks didn't build the road nor do they own it, but they
>> pretend to.

> Who does own the land and the road between Loma Prieta and Mt.
> Madonna? I had thought for some time that some of this land was
> private property -- including sections of the road. This goes back
> to my days of doing radio service on Loma Prieta and Mt. Madonna,
> but maybe I was misinformed.

I looked it up and the truck driver who was accosted by the locals
went to court and won the case in which the court ruled that these are
public roads. That is why the steel gates are permanently open as I
had observed. That doesn't stop these folks from posting their
threatening signs and telling unaware passers-by that they are not
allowed there.

> I recall that "Watson" has a 99 year lease for the top of Loma, but
> I don't know from whom the lease originates. The road to the very
> top of Loma was maintained by Watson, if you really want to call it
> "maintenance." We were always instructed to keep all the gates
> locked.

That is true for the road to the antenna farm on the peak, but then
there is no advantage in going there because the view is obscured by
tall chaparral that surrounds the antenna site. The view is far
better from the road that approaches the peak and skirts the north
face, there where the spring gushes forth.

Mt Umunhum, or more correctly Mt Thayer is covered by antennas
operated by the McQueen organization. They also dislike any
passers-by.

Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>

Marino

unread,
May 23, 2001, 5:25:29 PM5/23/01
to

Jobst Brandt wrote:

> Lee Bower writes:
>
> > REI financially supports the green peace groups that try to close
> > trails to bicycles, dirt bikes and waterways for personal
> > watercraft.
>

I missed the start of this thread, but if REI supports groups that try to
close waterways to "personal watercraft" (I assume that is euphemism for
jet-ski type boats). , that makes me want to support REI. Nothing ruins
a day on the water in a canoe or kayak like those floating snowmobiles.
They're noisy, polluting, and in my experience, the riders have little
regard for the safety of those in human-powered craft.

Phil Marino
Rochester, NY

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