Is there an anti-cycle-commuting conspiracy?

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Steve Green

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Nov 14, 1993, 9:40:18 PM11/14/93
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I was thinging during my ride in to work this morning ( as I aften
do during my rides ) about a discussion about cycling I had with
my father last night.

I suddenly realized that NOBODY I know is supportive of my cycle
commuting. My parents insist it dangerous. My wife says little
against it, but never says anything for it either. And my friends
just think I'm insane.

Maybe my continued cycle commuting as actually a manifestation
of rebellious feels? Who knows?

Is this a common experience or do others actually get some
support from people close to them?

Steve Green

bui tho xuan

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Nov 15, 1993, 2:35:14 AM11/15/93
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In article Steve Green <Steve...@its.csiro.au> writes:
>I suddenly realized that NOBODY I know is supportive of my cycle
>commuting. My parents insist it dangerous. My wife says little
>against it, but never says anything for it either. And my friends
>just think I'm insane.

Yup. That's about right.

>Maybe my continued cycle commuting as actually a manifestation
>of rebellious feels? Who knows?

I commute/bike because I have to. My bicycles make me :-)
But then again, I don't need anyone to support my biking either.
I don't need anyone to support me when I drive...why should biking
be any different?

tho

Steve Manifold

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Nov 15, 1993, 9:12:29 AM11/15/93
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You have described the reactions of my family, wife and friends exactly. I
can understand my family's concern for my safety (although I travel a very
safe route, one of the safest in Austin, I think) but too often people just
think I am crazy for riding 19 miles to work early in the morning when I
could be driving a warm, comfortable car. Well, I think they are the crazy
ones, especially the ones who pay hundreds of dollars a year so they can
drive to a health club to get some exercise.

steve

--
____________________________________ _ ___________________________________
Steve Manifold _| ~-. University of Texas
eza...@hermes.chpc.utexas.edu \, *_} Center for Electromechanics
____________________________________ \/ ___________________________________

Frank Hamlin

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Nov 15, 1993, 11:13:34 AM11/15/93
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Steve Manifold (eza...@chpc.utexas.edu) wrote:

: You have described the reactions of my family, wife and friends exactly. I

: can understand my family's concern for my safety (although I travel a very
: safe route, one of the safest in Austin, I think) but too often people just
: think I am crazy for riding 19 miles to work early in the morning when I
: could be driving a warm, comfortable car. Well, I think they are the crazy
: ones, especially the ones who pay hundreds of dollars a year so they can
: drive to a health club to get some exercise.

: steve

About 1 month ago, my sister made a very interesting comment. Like the
rest of my family, she did not understand why I would consider riding my
bike when my warm car is sitting in the garage. Well, she joined a
health club. She is feeling really good about herself and likes to tell
the family how she is doing. During one of our telephone conversations
I said something about being caught in the rain again. Her response was
to say:

"I used to think it was dumb to ride your bike to work, and it was REALLY
dumb to ride in the rain. But you know, I just realized it doesn't make
any difference. When you are working that hard, you can be warm and
comfortable, even when wet."

I think a light just went on!

--

Frank Hamlin, Santa Rosa Systems, Hewlett Packard __@ __@
1400 Fountaingrove Pkwy, Santa Rosa, Calif _-\<,-\<,
fra...@sr.hp.com (*)/---/(*)

Eric Wassermann

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Nov 15, 1993, 11:54:37 AM11/15/93
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In article <CGJJq...@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>, fra...@sr.hp.com (Frank Hamlin)
wrote:

>
> Steve Manifold (eza...@chpc.utexas.edu) wrote:
>
> : You have described the reactions of my family, wife and friends exactly. I
> : can understand my family's concern for my safety (although I travel a very
> : safe route, one of the safest in Austin, I think) but too often people just
> : think I am crazy for riding 19 miles to work early in the morning when I
> : could be driving a warm, comfortable car. Well, I think they are the crazy
> : ones, especially the ones who pay hundreds of dollars a year so they can
> : drive to a health club to get some exercise.
>
> : steve
>
> About 1 month ago, my sister made a very interesting comment. Like the
> rest of my family, she did not understand why I would consider riding my
> bike when my warm car is sitting in the garage. Well, she joined a
> health club. She is feeling really good about herself and likes to tell
> the family how she is doing. During one of our telephone conversations
> I said something about being caught in the rain again. Her response was
> to say:
>
> "I used to think it was dumb to ride your bike to work, and it was REALLY
> dumb to ride in the rain. But you know, I just realized it doesn't make
> any difference. When you are working that hard, you can be warm and
> comfortable, even when wet."
>
> I think a light just went on!

Hey, if it always felt good and was completely safe and everybody loved and
respected you for it, it wouldn't be fun. If I didn't ride a bike, I'd
probably commute to work standing on the rear bumpers of busses (if you
can still do that).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As far as I know,
Eric Wassermann The opinions expressed are not
Human Motor Control Section those of the Federal Government,
NINDS, NIH the U.S. Public Health Service
or the National Institutes of Health

T...@slacvm.slac.stanford.edu

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Nov 15, 1993, 3:30:59 PM11/15/93
to
Well fellow cyclists, I'm glad I'm not alone on anti-cycle-commuting. I know
my friends are laughing behind my back...club members too, and yes my family al
so worries, but it's not enough to make me change my mind. Had some pretty clo
se calls too and I know I'm going to get hit some day. Advice: to carry a good
life insurance policy and when they bury me make sure it with my bike...and
DON'T SCRATCH THE FRAME!
-tom

neil j.cherry

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Nov 15, 1993, 3:49:32 PM11/15/93
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In article <CGJJq...@srgenprp.sr.hp.com> fra...@sr.hp.com (Frank Hamlin) writes:

:steve Manifold (eza...@chpc.utexas.edu) wrote:
:
:: You have described the reactions of my family, wife and friends exactly. I
:: can understand my family's concern for my safety (although I travel a very
:: safe route, one of the safest in Austin, I think) but too often people just
:: think I am crazy for riding 19 miles to work early in the morning when I
:: could be driving a warm, comfortable car. Well, I think they are the crazy
:: ones, especially the ones who pay hundreds of dollars a year so they can
:: drive to a health club to get some exercise.
:
:: steve
:
:About 1 month ago, my sister made a very interesting comment. Like the
:rest of my family, she did not understand why I would consider riding my
:bike when my warm car is sitting in the garage. Well, she joined a
:health club. She is feeling really good about herself and likes to tell
:the family how she is doing. During one of our telephone conversations
:I said something about being caught in the rain again. Her response was
:to say:
:
:"I used to think it was dumb to ride your bike to work, and it was REALLY
:dumb to ride in the rain. But you know, I just realized it doesn't make
:any difference. When you are working that hard, you can be warm and
:comfortable, even when wet."
:
:I think a light just went on!

I know what you mean, my family, friend and co workers think I'm nuts. Only
other cyclists seem to understand.

One thing that drives them nuts is I'm always cold. Now I live in NJ and its
not exactly Florida when Jan and Feb rolls araound. But I've found that when
I ride I can generate enough heat to keep most of me warm. The one part that
gets cold is my feet, I'm hoping neopreen booties will help. Other than that
its really wild to stop at a light and have steam come off your cloths. Really
freaks out the people in cars!

NJC

Dieu-Huong T. Vo

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Nov 15, 1993, 4:19:54 PM11/15/93
to
In article <CGII3...@its.csiro.au> Steve Green <Steve...@its.csiro.au> writes:
>I was thinging during my ride in to work this morning ( as I aften
>do during my rides )
>
[deleted stuff]

>
>Is this a common experience or do others actually get some
>support from people close to them?
>

First off, I have to congratulate you. Must be hard to balance while
thinging. You really do this often? Aren't you worried about people
seeing you?

Must of us, I suspect, once through adolescence, give up thinging
and find someone close to us.

I hope Jenn doesn't turn this into another alt.bike.lycra.sex thing :-)


--
Teri Vo ter...@leland.stanford.edu
"I kissed the frog and it remained a frog."
Pete Stark re Clinton's health care plan

Royce Myers

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Nov 15, 1993, 6:47:35 PM11/15/93
to
In article <CGII3...@its.csiro.au>, Steve Green
<Steve...@its.csiro.au> wrote:

>
> I suddenly realized that NOBODY I know is supportive of my cycle
> commuting. My parents insist it dangerous. My wife says little
> against it, but never says anything for it either. And my friends
> just think I'm insane.

You forgot local traffic engineers, bus drivers, other commuters...:))

Yes we cycle commuters are an oppressed minority, and are often treated
like second class citizens. It's not unlike being a Democrat who supports
the second amendment or (I presume) a Republican who is "pro-choice".

Sometimes you need to do things alone.

--
Royce Myers Ro...@ug.eds.com

Thomas H. Kunich

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Nov 15, 1993, 8:59:53 PM11/15/93
to
In article <CGJJq...@srgenprp.sr.hp.com> fra...@sr.hp.com (Frank Hamlin) writes:

>About 1 month ago, my sister made a very interesting comment. Like the
>rest of my family, she did not understand why I would consider riding my
>bike when my warm car is sitting in the garage. Well, she joined a
>health club. She is feeling really good about herself and likes to tell
>the family how she is doing. During one of our telephone conversations
>I said something about being caught in the rain again. Her response was
>to say:
>
>"I used to think it was dumb to ride your bike to work, and it was REALLY
>dumb to ride in the rain. But you know, I just realized it doesn't make
>any difference. When you are working that hard, you can be warm and
>comfortable, even when wet."

I think that this is what people who bike have to keep in mind. We
have been brain-washed into believing that the most important thing
in life is to remain comfortable. Some of us learn that health is more
important and take whatever steps are necessary.

You have to pay for everything you get in life. In order to see that
great sunrise you have to drag yourself out of bed before dawn and
get situated. In order to enjoy vigorous health you have to engage in
vigorous exercise. We are just lucky that bicycling is fun all by itself.

When I ran I did it for my health but I hated every minute of it. Now I
bike for my health and only hate half of it -- the climbing part. :-)

Kevin Karplus

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Nov 16, 1993, 7:16:42 AM11/16/93
to

Although there are undoubtedly people locally who think cycle
commuters are nuts, 5.5% of the local workers commute by bike (1990
census for City of Santa Cruz). A large proportion of these commuters
are at UCSC, where I teach (latest count showed 1000 bikes a day
entering campus, no count has been done of bikes ridden by campus
residents--UCSC has about 10,000 students and 2,000? faculty/staff).

Once you get enough cycle commuters in an area, it becomes normal, not weird.

About half of the faculty in my department bike commute at least
occassionally---most of the rest live over 20 miles (and 2000 feet
elevation change) away.

On the other hand, being a bike activist (going to lots of meetings
and public hearings) is still regarded as weird, based on how few
people do it. I have had co-workers thank me for doing it, but I'd
rather have fewer thanks and more activists.

--
Kevin Karplus kar...@ce.ucsc.edu

Due to budgetary constraints the light at the end of the tunnel is
being turned off.

Steve Manifold

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Nov 16, 1993, 9:28:13 AM11/16/93
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In article <tomkCGK...@netcom.com>, to...@netcom.com (Thomas H. Kunich) writes:
>
> You have to pay for everything you get in life. In order to see that
> great sunrise you have to drag yourself out of bed before dawn and
> get situated. In order to enjoy vigorous health you have to engage in
> vigorous exercise. We are just lucky that bicycling is fun all by itself.
>

Almost every morning that I commute by bike (sorry to say I am not up to
5 days a week yet) I lie in bed thinking "If I take the car I can stay
in my nice warm bed for 40 minutes more." But then I tell myself that when
I am out on the road on the bike watching the sun rise, I'll be glad I
did it, and this bed will be forgotten. Works every time.

mark.b.watson

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Nov 16, 1993, 9:25:38 AM11/16/93
to
In article <CGII3...@its.csiro.au> Steve Green <Steve...@its.csiro.au> writes:
[ ... stuff deleted ... ]

>
>I suddenly realized that NOBODY I know is supportive of my cycle
>commuting. My parents insist it dangerous. My wife says little
>against it, but never says anything for it either. And my friends
>just think I'm insane.

[ ... stuff deleted ... ]

>Is this a common experience or do others actually get some
>support from people close to them?
>


All I can say is that you are fortunate your wife says little against it!

It is an uphill strugggle all the way!

Mark Watson

T...@slacvm.slac.stanford.edu

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Nov 16, 1993, 1:08:57 PM11/16/93
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THE SECOND GREATEST FEELING IN THE WORLD IS CYCLING!

-tom

Hans-Joachim Zierke

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Nov 16, 1993, 6:00:00 AM11/16/93
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On 15.11.93, Steve...@its.csiro.au (Steve Green) writes:

> Is this a common experience or do others actually get some
> support from people close to them?

Support? Wherefore?

If I look at my 10 closest friends, only 2 own a car. One of them
even doesn't own a driving license. And since she gets about 3
times of my payment, its not for financial reasons. ;-)

hajo

Ole Agesen

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Nov 16, 1993, 3:37:08 PM11/16/93
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ha...@quijote.in-berlin.de (Hans-Joachim Zierke) writes:

>If I look at my 10 closest friends, only 2 own a car. One of them
>even doesn't own a driving license. And since she gets about 3
>times of my payment, its not for financial reasons. ;-)

>hajo

Unsurprisingly, Hans-Joachim is not from the U.S. (nor from California ;-)
Anyone in the U.S. who can claim the same as Hans-Joachim?

Ole

Richard Griffith

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Nov 16, 1993, 4:54:10 PM11/16/93
to

>>If I look at my 10 closest friends, only 2 own a car. One of them
>>even doesn't own a driving license.

>Unsurprisingly, Hans-Joachim is not from the U.S. (nor from California ;-)


>Anyone in the U.S. who can claim the same as Hans-Joachim?

Does Canada count? You have to like the winter.

I just got my license last month, I am 29.
And yes I can make the claim.
I don't bike all year though. I switch to skates when the ice gets nice.


Richard Swent

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Nov 16, 1993, 5:11:30 PM11/16/93
to

At Stanford University, where I work, the bicycle commuting rate
is approximately 20%, and it is not considered unusual at all. This
is admittedly an island in an ocean of car commuters, but it shows
that once you build enough of a base to give the practice some
legitimacy and respectability, attitudes can be changed.It also
helps if the employer provides the physical facilities.

Rich

Patrick Edward Siegman

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Nov 16, 1993, 7:27:34 PM11/16/93
to

Here at Stanford, 55% of the campus' daytime population either
bicycle or walk to work or class.

But if you still feel like a lonely cyclist, come join us this
Thursday and start building a true bicycle community:

**** STANFORD BICYCLE COALITION *****
******** ORGANIZATIONAL MEETING THURSDAY *********

Noon, Thursday Nov. 18, Tresidder Union, Cypress South
(Bring your lunch)

Agenda: Proposing Design Standards & Bicycle Programs

Working alone, many of us have tried to get bike lockers or
showers for a particular building. Working alone, we*ve tried to
see a particular intersection fixed -- focussing on one tree and
ignoring the forest. But far more effective than focussing on
one intersection is helping Stanford set workable design
standards to make all Stanford roads safe for cycling, all offices
and dorms bike-friendly.

At this organizational meeting, we*ll split up into working
groups -- on road design, lockers and racks, bike police and so
on -- to first look at the best bike facilities, programs and
standards set elsewhere, and then suggest the standards
Stanford might adopt. To help us get started, we*ll have loads of
information on standards and programs from Palo Alto and
elsewhere, bike advocacy kits, and hopefully blueprints and
plans for upcoming Stanford projects.

So bring your ideas, enthusiasm, and your desire to help make
Stanford a better place for cycling. See you Thursday!

--Pat Siegman <peanut@leland> 328-2333
592 Alvarado Row, Stanford CA 94305

Thelma Lubkin

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Nov 16, 1993, 8:08:03 PM11/16/93
to

> >hajo

No: I don't have 10 close friends.
But I myself have never needed to learn to drive, and since my
husband hasn't driven in over 25 years we both use bikes for
everything from commuting to shopping to recreation.
I get lots of support of the 'I could never do that, but I
think it's great that you do' kind.
--thelma
> Ole

Dennis McCrohan

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Nov 16, 1993, 12:16:53 PM11/16/93
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>in my nice warm bed for 40 minutes more." But then I tell myself that when
>I am out on the road on the bike watching the sun rise, I'll be glad I
>did it, and this bed will be forgotten. Works every time.

In this part of the world at this time of year, if you see the sunrise on the
way to work you must not have to be at work until 9 or 10, and you better be
able to leave by 3 to get home before sunset. Of course, normally this time of
year there is no sunrise, just a lighter shade of gray to go with the persistent
drizzle.

This, along with a number of other practical reasons (12 hour work days, child
care, a bridge across the lake with no bike/ped. access) is why I, and a lot
of other drones, drive our little metal boxes like lemmings...

The truth is, even in one of the most bike-friendly parts of the country, bike
commuting is difficult at best, and just plain impractical for a lot of working
people with responsibilities to others. This is not to flame people with .edu
addresses, but I remember those days and life was a lot simpler then!

-dm


GARTH D SOMERVILLE

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Nov 17, 1993, 6:08:57 AM11/17/93
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In article <1993Nov16.1...@tera.com>, den...@tera.com (Dennis McCrohan) writes:
|>
|>This, along with a number of other practical reasons (12 hour work days, child
|>care, a bridge across the lake with no bike/ped. access) is why I, and a lot
|>of other drones, drive our little metal boxes like lemmings...
|>
|>The truth is, even in one of the most bike-friendly parts of the country, bike
|>commuting is difficult at best, and just plain impractical for a lot of working
|>people with responsibilities to others. This is not to flame people with .edu
|>addresses, but I remember those days and life was a lot simpler then!
|>

It only seems unreasonably hard to those who do not do it. I find what you
say amusing because some of the reasons you sight for motoring are the
same reasons I pedal. First, I only have one car and I feel better if
its at home during the day for my wife to use. Second, my responsibilities
to my wife and daughter include both staying healthy and spending as much time
as I can with them. Taken together, this makes it more practical to
pedal than to drive because while driving time is 100% wasted time,
pedal time is not.

I do not know why you would assume that anyone who pedals to work must be
working obviously less than 12 hours a day, or why everyone with .edu
address is a student with no responsibilities. The real key is not be lazy
and not to assume that the goal is comfort. Getting up at 4:45 a.m. and
riding to work is not always fun, but doing it has always paid me back
several times more in benefits than whatever discomfort I had to suffer.
I think knowing this simple fact is the real difference between those
who do it and those who do not.
--
Garth Somerville
somer...@bae.ncsu.edu
gdso...@eos.ncsu.edu

Michael Smith

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Nov 17, 1993, 3:10:46 PM11/17/93
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In article <1993Nov16.1...@tera.com> den...@tera.com (Dennis McCrohan) writes:
> This, along with a number of other practical reasons (12 hour work days, child
> care, a bridge across the lake with no bike/ped. access) is why I, and a lot
> of other drones, drive our little metal boxes like lemmings...

I used to have solid reasons for driving into work. Then I realized that I
was just making up excuses. Making up excuses is so much easier than
actually changing ones lifestyle.

If you ride a bike instead of taking a car almost everyday, you can save
several thousands of dollars a year. Maybe then you wouldn't need to
work 12 hour days. When looking for a place to live (for some this only
happens once every few decades but it still happens), find a place that
helps with your commute. If there are barriers to bicycle commuting
(such as bridges), find out how the barriers can be overcome.

Sure not everybody can not use their cars for commuting to work but most
could if they really wanted to. Most simply don't want to.

Mike Smith
HP Labs

Don Hermes

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Nov 17, 1993, 3:41:05 PM11/17/93
to
In article <CGII3...@its.csiro.au> Steve Green <Steve...@its.csiro.au> writes:
>I suddenly realized that NOBODY I know is supportive of my cycle
>commuting. My parents insist it dangerous. My wife says little
>against it, but never says anything for it either. And my friends
>just think I'm insane.

>Is this a common experience or do others actually get some


>support from people close to them?

It's hard to really call it support, it was more of a,
"Gee you're crazy, I wish I could do that."
I did get postitive comments from people who realized that
it was an environmentally positive thing to do.

Don Hermes
her...@crl.com


J10...@lmsc5.is.lmsc.lockheed.com

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Nov 17, 1993, 3:39:27 PM11/17/93
to
Teri Vo writes...

In article <CGII3...@its.csiro.au> Steve Green who writes:
>>I was thinging during my ride in to work this morning ( as I aften
>>do during my rides )
>>
>>[deleted stuff]
>>

>>Is this a common experience or do others actually get some
>>support from people close to them?

>First off, I have to congratulate you. Must be hard to balance while


>thinging. You really do this often? Aren't you worried about people
>seeing you?

>Must of us, I suspect, once through adolescence, give up thinging
>and find someone close to us.

>I hope Jenn doesn't turn this into another alt.bike.lycra.sex thing :-)

>Teri Vo ter...@leland.stanford.edu


>"I kissed the frog and it remained a frog."
>Pete Stark re Clinton's health care plan

Teri, I think this is the second of your recent posts where you take a
grammatical or typo and put that "special" spin on it...the last one had
something to do with riding a trainer...

What's on your mind?

yes, I keep track...;)

MartyG

Jennifer R. Accettola

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Nov 17, 1993, 7:44:34 PM11/17/93
to
In article <1993Nov15....@leland.Stanford.EDU> ter...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dieu-Huong T. Vo) writes:
>>I was thinging during my ride in to work this morning ( as I aften
>>do during my rides )
>>
>[deleted stuff]
>>
>>Is this a common experience or do others actually get some
>>support from people close to them?
>
>First off, I have to congratulate you. Must be hard to balance while
>thinging. You really do this often? Aren't you worried about people
>seeing you?
>Must of us, I suspect, once through adolescence, give up thinging
>and find someone close to us.
>I hope Jenn doesn't turn this into another alt.bike.lycra.sex thing :-)
>Teri Vo ter...@leland.stanford.edu
>"I kissed the frog and it remained a frog."
>Pete Stark re Clinton's health care plan


Why Teri! Why would you thing such a thing (or think?).
I wasn't even thinging about it!

Cute .sig by the way!

I am also among the victims of the anti-bike-commuting
conspiracy. It's really hard to convince your relatives and
significant others of the merits of cycling as opposed to driving
when they refer to you as "Kamikaze" or "Hurricane" Jenn!

Fortunately, the cost of insurance in New Orleans is so prohibitive
that I have the perfect excuse *not* to drive (well, not owning
a car or having a LA driver's license also count in that category).

Ciao, Jenn
je...@convex1.tcs.tulane.edu
"There once was a family in Philadelphia that went through
four generations without fingerprints at all: they were
born without prints, the only known case in history. 'This
could present quite a problem for law enforcement,' said
one public official. 'No way,' replied another. 'If the
police ever find a murder weapon in Philly with no prints
on it, we'll know one of *them* did it.'"

--Tom Robbins, 1976 "Even Cowgirls Get the Blues"

Jennifer R. Accettola

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Nov 17, 1993, 7:46:37 PM11/17/93
to
In article <93320.1...@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> <T...@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> writes:
>THE SECOND GREATEST FEELING IN THE WORLD IS CYCLING!
>
> -tom

Hey, TERI!!! What about Tom turning this into an alt.cycling.lycra.sex
type of thing? Hmmm? Tom, what do you have to say in defense of yourself,
what exactly is the first GREATEST feeling in the world?

Ciao, Jenn

bui tho xuan

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Nov 17, 1993, 8:08:32 PM11/17/93
to
In article je...@convex1.tcs.tulane.edu (Jennifer R. Accettola) writes:

>In article <T...@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> writes:
>>THE SECOND GREATEST FEELING IN THE WORLD IS CYCLING!
>> -tom
>Hey, TERI!!! What about Tom turning this into an alt.cycling.lycra.sex
>type of thing? Hmmm? Tom, what do you have to say in defense of yourself,
>what exactly is the first GREATEST feeling in the world?
>Ciao, Jenn

Don't know about Tom, but for me, THE GREATEST FEELING IN THE WORLD is
to be able to unwrap my wife off my neck after a ride in 10 degrees F
weather.

Can't wait 'til you guys pounce on the next typo...

tho

Kevin Karplus

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Nov 17, 1993, 9:55:57 PM11/17/93
to

Ole Agesen challenges:

> >If I look at my 10 closest friends, only 2 own a car. One of them
> >even doesn't own a driving license. And since she gets about 3
> >times of my payment, its not for financial reasons. ;-)
>
> >hajo
>
> Unsurprisingly, Hans-Joachim is not from the U.S. (nor from California ;-)
> Anyone in the U.S. who can claim the same as Hans-Joachim?

Well, I'm not sure I quite qualify, being from Santa Cruz, California
(it's in the US, just in the 1960s).

Counting several of my closest friends:
Jim, Jessica, Don, Don, Ron, Rick, and John, do not own cars.
Neither do I, and I've never had a driver's license.
OK, that's only 7, but I could get a dozen or so more if I was
allowed to count acquaintances, rather than friends.

Before we get accused of being impecunious students, only one of those
listed is a student (and he went back to school after several years as
a VLSI designer). Jim & Jessica, Don, Ron, Rick, and I each own our
own houses (in the second most unaffordable market in the country,
according to the American Realtors Association, who define it using
the ratio of the median house price to the median household
income---San Francisco is the least affordable market, and Champagne,
IL the most).

Dieu-Huong T. Vo

unread,
Nov 17, 1993, 11:47:08 PM11/17/93
to


Hey Tho, does this have something to do with using your
wife for balance?

Just to let you know we're paying attention.


--

T...@slacvm.slac.stanford.edu

unread,
Nov 18, 1993, 11:29:41 AM11/18/93
to
>THE SECOND GREATEST FEELING THE WORLD IS CYCLING!

-tom
>>Hey, TERI!!! What about Tom turning this into an alt.cycling.lycra.sex type
of thing? Hmmmmm? Tom, what do you have to say in defense of yourself, what e

xactly is the first GREATEST feeling in the world?

Well Jenn, looks like you brought up the subject of sex, I never said anything
about sex...all I said was: "THE SECOND GREATEST FEELING IN THE WORLD IS CYCLIN
G!" Sound to me like it's your problem not mine! Kidda makes me wonder about y
our other postings about Women cycling alone. For your Records: MY FIRST GRE
ATEST FEELING IN THE WORLD is riding in my dads Ferrari Red Ferrari Dino!

-tom

Dieu-Huong T. Vo

unread,
Nov 18, 1993, 2:53:02 PM11/18/93
to


Sounds like auto-eroticism to me! :-)

T...@slacvm.slac.stanford.edu

unread,
Nov 18, 1993, 4:53:01 PM11/18/93
to
Teri Vo writes: >Sounds like auto-eroticism to me! :-)
she also writes: >"I kissed the frog and it remained a frog."

need I say more?
-tom

Thomas H. Kunich

unread,
Nov 19, 1993, 1:25:39 AM11/19/93
to
In article <MGSMITH.93...@hpl.hp.com> mgs...@hpl.hp.com (Michael Smith) writes:

>If you ride a bike instead of taking a car almost everyday, you can save
>several thousands of dollars a year.

And where are these thousands of dollars of savings coming from? Insurance?
I would have to pay that in any case since I have a new car that must
be covered 100%. Maintenance? Modern cars don't have much maintenance. Oil
changes? Come on now.

Gasoline? I pay $20 a week for gas. Multiplied by 52 that's $1040 a year
for gasoline and if I don't commute I still use almost that much in gas.
I simply drive more at other times.

BART would cost me more to commute than my car. I know because I used it
for 6 years. Bicycling would take me about 1 1/2 hours to go from San
Leandro to Berkeley whereas the car requires about 1/2 hour.

These aren't excuses, they are facts. Some people are in a position to
commute via bicycle. On the one rare occassion when I had a nice 8 mile
commute I rode my bike 4 days a week, but that job only lasted 6 weeks.

Furthermore, bicycling early in the morning when drivers are trying
to shave, drink coffee and see around fogged up windows isn't my idea
of acting in a safe and sane manner.

Richard F. Masoner

unread,
Nov 18, 1993, 10:28:19 AM11/18/93
to
In article <CGII3...@its.csiro.au> Steve Green <Steve...@its.csiro.au> writes:
>I suddenly realized that NOBODY I know is supportive of my cycle
>commuting. My parents insist it dangerous. My wife says little
>against it, but never says anything for it either. And my friends
>just think I'm insane.

Everyone I know thinks I'm an absolute nut because of the
21 miles I commute through heavy traffic. Everyone I work
with is amazed I'm not dead yet; my wife, like yours, isn't
negative, but she isn't absolutely positive either.

>Maybe my continued cycle commuting as actually a manifestation
>of rebellious feels?

I'm convinced this is the case for me. I love it!
--
Richard F. Masoner rich...@sdf.lonestar.org
Seen on a magazine cover: "Guns don't kill people, television does"

T...@slacvm.slac.stanford.edu

unread,
Nov 19, 1993, 10:42:14 AM11/19/93
to
>Everyone I know thinks I'm an absolute nut because of the 21 miles I commute t
hrough heavy traffic. Everyone I work with is amazed I'm not dead yet; my wife
, like yours, isn't negative, but she isn't absolutely positive either.

Richard, know the feeling, my commute is 28 miles oneway. When I first started
commuting by bike 3 years ago I thought I would die. Heavy traffic, fatigue
and weather conditions took it's toll on me, plus the negative comments from my
family and friends, but I never gave up. I still sometimes get the negative co
mments, but the 28miles is a drop in the bucket...good luck commuting and never
give-up!
-tom

David Casseres

unread,
Nov 19, 1993, 1:32:48 PM11/19/93
to
In article <CGII3...@its.csiro.au> Steve Green, Steve...@its.csiro.au

writes:
>I suddenly realized that NOBODY I know is supportive of my cycle
>commuting. My parents insist it dangerous. My wife says little
>against it, but never says anything for it either. And my friends
>just think I'm insane.
>
>Maybe my continued cycle commuting as actually a manifestation
>of rebellious feels? Who knows?

>
>Is this a common experience or do others actually get some
>support from people close to them?

It's nice to be reminded of how lucky I am. My entire family, my employer,
and my friends all strongly support my bike commuting.

-------------

David Casseres
Exclaimer: Hey!

Tim Sullivan

unread,
Nov 19, 1993, 12:52:27 PM11/19/93
to

to...@netcom.com (Thomas H. Kunich) wrote this about
"Is there an anti-cycle-commuting conspi":

>
>
>And where are these thousands of dollars of savings coming from? Insurance?
>I would have to pay that in any case since I have a new car that must
>be covered 100%. Maintenance? Modern cars don't have much maintenance. Oil
>changes? Come on now.
>

My insurance rates are based on a number of factors. One of which is on
the number of days driven to work, and how far that drive is.

>
>Furthermore, bicycling early in the morning when drivers are trying
>to shave, drink coffee and see around fogged up windows isn't my idea
>of acting in a safe and sane manner.
>

When I commute (I average 4 days a week, March through November) I
encounter dangerous situations, but none that I can remember due
to inattention of the driver because they were engaged in any activities
like those listed. If anything, I find drivers during commute time
more predictable than other times as they generally know where they
are going, they are used to condition of the streets and seem to
be attentive as there is usually a high volume of traffic at that
time.


--

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Sullivan
ti...@cci.com

Alan Bloom

unread,
Nov 19, 1993, 3:58:10 PM11/19/93
to
Richard F. Masoner (rich...@sdf.lonestar.org) wrote:

: In article <CGII3...@its.csiro.au> Steve Green <Steve...@its.csiro.au> writes:
: >I suddenly realized that NOBODY I know is supportive of my cycle
: >commuting. My parents insist it dangerous. My wife says little
: >against it, but never says anything for it either. And my friends
: >just think I'm insane.

: Everyone I know thinks I'm an absolute nut because of the
: 21 miles I commute through heavy traffic.

This thread has been kind of surprising to me. Everyone I know has been
supportive of my commuting. Maybe Sonoma County is more health and
environment-conscious than most places :=)

Alan Bloom

Alan Bloom

unread,
Nov 19, 1993, 4:04:21 PM11/19/93
to
Tim Sullivan (ti...@cci.com) wrote:

: ... If anything, I find drivers during commute time


: more predictable than other times as they generally know where they
: are going, they are used to condition of the streets and seem to
: be attentive as there is usually a high volume of traffic at that
: time.

I find the same thing. For one thing, I can only remember getting beeped
at once or twice while commuting during the last 6 months, but it has
happened a number of times on recreational rides, even though they amount
to fewer hours.

Alan Bloom

Marc San Soucie

unread,
Nov 19, 1993, 5:22:58 PM11/19/93
to
den...@tera.com (Dennis McCrohan) writes:

> The truth is, even in one of the most bike-friendly parts of the country, bike
> commuting is difficult at best, and just plain impractical for a lot of working
> people with responsibilities to others. This is not to flame people with .edu
> addresses, but I remember those days and life was a lot simpler then!

These difficulties, though, are often (not always) the result of choices
made previously while under the assumption that transportation would be
cheap and convenient. As traffic increases and infrastructure becomes more
expensive, these assumptions gradually become less accurate. Many people,
given the opportunity to remake those choices (such as, how far away from
work to live), might agreeably choose differently, in a way that would make
walking, cycling, or using transit far less "difficult".

Marc San Soucie
Portland, Oregon
ma...@netcom.com

Marc San Soucie

unread,
Nov 19, 1993, 5:25:37 PM11/19/93
to
to...@netcom.com (Thomas H. Kunich) writes:

> In article <MGSMITH.93...@hpl.hp.com> mgs...@hpl.hp.com (Michael Smith) writes:

> >If you ride a bike instead of taking a car almost everyday, you can save
> >several thousands of dollars a year.

> And where are these thousands of dollars of savings coming from? Insurance?
> I would have to pay that in any case since I have a new car that must
> be covered 100%. Maintenance? Modern cars don't have much maintenance. Oil
> changes? Come on now.

Depreciation. $18000 car divided (generously) by 5 years equals $3600 per
year of depreciation. Less use means longer life means less annual
depreciation.

John Ciccarelli

unread,
Nov 19, 1993, 8:34:05 PM11/19/93
to

In article <2cjq57$6...@fido.asd.sgi.com>, <akk...@moab.wpd.sgi.com> writes:
>
> Bike commuting is great for health and for the environment, but the
> financial argument is silly. The only case in which the financial
> argument might make sense is for people who don't own a car at all
> and go everywhere by bike.

It's not silly. Big savings accrue not by *completely* doing without a car,
but by being a 1-car family instead of a 2-car family. Planners in Montgomery
County, Maryland (northern suburb of Washington DC) estimated that a family
that replaces one of their two cars with a bike can qualify for a $25K bigger
mortgage.

My wife and I have avoided replacing a second car (our first car until it
reached the end of its engine life) because I bike (and take the bike on buses
and trains) for nearly all my solo transportation. Also, the car has a
convenient folding bike rack so we can "rideshare" part of the way to places,
without her having to drop me off or pick me up. Counting interest, insurance,
depreciation (the car wearing out and being worth less each year), and
maintenance (at >$150 for a major tuneup) that's many hundreds of dollars
annually -- way more than bike maintenance.

Even single people who must have one car can still realize insurance savings
(my insurer gives a considerable discount for going from "commute" to
"occasional" use), interest savings (you might actually pay off your loan
before your car wears out), and of course reduced depreciation / increased
resale value.

There are "car sharing" coops in Europe wherein people share the use of one or
more cars. Ideal if you only need a car occasionally, or if you'd like access
to a specific vehicle type (pickup, camper, ...) without having to own it
yourself. You could own a high-efficiency car and share a truck, for instance.

So there are plenty of incremental savings to be had by reducing car use
without doing without them altogether.

/John Ciccarelli

Philip G. Aaronson

unread,
Nov 19, 1993, 7:43:17 PM11/19/93
to
In article <tomkCGq...@netcom.com> to...@netcom.com (Thomas H. Kunich) writes:
>And where are these thousands of dollars of savings coming from? Insurance?
>I would have to pay that in any case since I have a new car that must
>be covered 100%. Maintenance? Modern cars don't have much maintenance. Oil
>changes? Come on now.
>
>Gasoline? I pay $20 a week for gas. Multiplied by 52 that's $1040 a year
>for gasoline and if I don't commute I still use almost that much in gas.
>I simply drive more at other times.

I'm not sure how much money I've saved
by bike commuting, if I've paid for my bike
($550) I'd be more than happy. I don't bike
commute because of the money, its more, I
hate driving in rush hour, simple as that.

In terms of the big numbers I save, the
biggest is because my car is on its way out.
I have 180,000 miles on it and I feel pretty
confident that if I had been commuting in it
for the past two years (since I started bike
commuting) it would be dead and gone and I
would have had to find another damn car.

For those of us not ready to go completely
carless I think the big savings would be
for a couple. Where it means the difference
between having just one car rather than two.
I've been trying to explain this to a married
grad student buddy of mine who often complains
about grad pay yet still has two cars, but to no
avail.

For you and your new car, if you save 5000 miles
a year off your car, over the life of the car
that's no small amount. Not to mention the great
shape you'll be in ... maybe we should we talk
medical bills?

Plus we're still ignoring the savings I get for
having my car classified as recreational for insurance
purposes. The gas I do save, regular maintenance,
etc etc etc.

Lata,
Phil
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
| Phil Aaronson | email: aaro...@nas.nasa.gov |
| Junior Research Scientist | phone: (415) 604-4527 |
| NASA Ames Research Center | Get on the bike, ride the bike |
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
"Get the word out ... We are here." - Woodside Officer, badge#517

Akkana Peck

unread,
Nov 19, 1993, 7:59:19 PM11/19/93
to
>> >If you ride a bike instead of taking a car almost everyday, you can save
>> >several thousands of dollars a year.
>
>> And where are these thousands of dollars of savings coming from? Insurance?
>> I would have to pay that in any case since I have a new car that must
>> be covered 100%. Maintenance? Modern cars don't have much maintenance. Oil
>> changes? Come on now.

Marc San Soucie <ma...@netcom.com> wrote:
>Depreciation. $18000 car divided (generously) by 5 years equals $3600 per
>year of depreciation. Less use means longer life means less annual
>depreciation.

$18,000! So who said it's necessary to buy an $18k car every 5 years
in order to commute?

If I commute on a Kestrel, and I have to buy a new one every month
because it keeps getting stolen, then I'd be saving thousands of dollars
a year by commuting in my car (which cost far less than a Kestrel, BTW).

Bike commuting is great for health and for the environment, but the
financial argument is silly. The only case in which the financial
argument might make sense is for people who don't own a car at all
and go everywhere by bike.

...Akkana akk...@moab.wpd.sgi.com
akk...@netcom.com

John Ciccarelli

unread,
Nov 19, 1993, 8:08:28 PM11/19/93
to

Tim Sullivan (ti...@cci.com) wrote:
> : ... If anything, I find drivers during commute time
> : more predictable than other times as they generally know where they
> : are going, they are used to condition of the streets and seem to
> : be attentive as there is usually a high volume of traffic at that time.

Alan Bloom responded:


> I find the same thing. For one thing, I can only remember getting beeped
> at once or twice while commuting during the last 6 months, but it has
> happened a number of times on recreational rides, even though they amount
> to fewer hours.

One dangerous motorist behavior is that of a driver reaching over to attend to
a child in the front seat, momentarily taking their attention off the road. Of
course this can happen at any hour, but its effects are especially dangerous
at commute time.

Recently a Silicon Valley bike commuter was hospitalized after being struck
from behind during rush hour by a woman driving a car with a young child. It
happened next to a long freeway entrance lane where thru cyclists must "ride
the line" for an extended distance -- probably the worst place to be
distracted.

"Keep your eyes on the road, your hands upon the wheel"
-- Jim Morrison and The Doors, "Roadhouse"

/John Ciccarelli

bui tho xuan

unread,
Nov 19, 1993, 8:44:49 PM11/19/93
to
In article (Akkana Peck) writes:
>>> >If you ride a bike instead of taking a car almost everyday, you can save
>>> >several thousands of dollars a year.

>>Tom K wrote:
>>> And where are these thousands of dollars of savings coming from?

>Marc San Soucie <ma...@netcom.com> wrote:


>>Depreciation. $18000 car divided (generously) by 5 years equals $3600 per
>>year of depreciation. Less use means longer life means less annual
>>depreciation.
>
>$18,000! So who said it's necessary to buy an $18k car every 5 years
>in order to commute?
>If I commute on a Kestrel, and I have to buy a new one every month
>because it keeps getting stolen, then I'd be saving thousands of dollars
>a year by commuting in my car (which cost far less than a Kestrel, BTW).

Who said it's necessary to buy a $2K bike to commute :-)? The cheapest
working car that I've seen is 500 bucks. The cheapest working bike I've
seen is 50 dollars. We shouldn't compare apples with kiwis.

The saving is real, on the average. This is especially accute for
the large number (my assumption here) of US households that have 2 or more
cars. If you bike, and your spouse drive, you'll save the cost of the
car and cost of its maintenance and depreciation.

>Bike commuting is great for health and for the environment, but the
>financial argument is silly. The only case in which the financial
>argument might make sense is for people who don't own a car at all
>and go everywhere by bike.

As with most things, you can save lots of money if you do the right
thing for your situation. There is no single cure-all for making
money, with the exception being Dave Rhoades Lefters :-).

I think the strongest argument against bicycle commuting is: I don't
want to. It is a free country after all.

tho

William D. Volk

unread,
Nov 19, 1993, 3:31:09 PM11/19/93
to

In article <tomkCGq...@netcom.com> (rec.bicycles.soc), to...@netcom.com (Thomas H. Kunich) writes:
> And where are these thousands of dollars of savings coming from? Insurance?
> I would have to pay that in any case since I have a new car that must
> be covered 100%. Maintenance? Modern cars don't have much maintenance. Oil
> changes? Come on now.
>

I don't commute by bicycle at this time, so I'm no fanatic. The reasons
I don't mainly involve a 17 mile each way commute (in Los Angeles)
and a lack of shower facilities at work, and the fact that I am just
too lazy.

I did commute by bicycle (not all the time) when I lived in Palo Alto for 3
years, it was a 4.5 mile commute each way and quite pleasent (no sweat).
Also used the bicycle for weekend outings (as opposed to driving).
Put more miles on the bicycle than on my car. I did save money ...

Here's how:

1. Reduced the miles/per/year on my '84 car to well under 5K/yr., got a reduction
in Car Insurance payments of around $200 or so (annual).

2. Now have a 10 year old (new) car with only 55K Miles on it. I don't
have to buy a new car for quite some time. So I probabilly saved
the cost of buying a new car.

Car is in great shape since it wasn't used for short trips (which wear out
the engine more per. mile than long trips).

I think that anything under 5 miles is a no-brainer on a bicycle.
So your commute may be too long.

Doing 17 2x in Los Angeles will be a trick.... maybe a recumbent
with a celluar telephone and CD Player?

William Volk
(I hated it when my Cat Micro Odometer on my bicycle ran out of batteries
at 9540 miles).

Thomas H. Kunich

unread,
Nov 20, 1993, 4:00:07 AM11/20/93
to
In article <marcsCG...@netcom.com> ma...@netcom.com (Marc San Soucie) writes:
>
>Depreciation. $18000 car divided (generously) by 5 years equals $3600 per
>year of depreciation. Less use means longer life means less annual
>depreciation.

Hmm, that sounds like you're saying that depreciation of your car doesn't
occur if you're riding your bike. Sorry, depreciation occurs more by year
than mileage. In fact, just try and collect on your insurance policy by
claiming that your car was in better condition than they're willing to pay
for in the even of a collision.

David M Primm

unread,
Nov 19, 1993, 5:39:13 PM11/19/93
to
Relax. Those who fail to understand great minds often respond by ridicule.
Besides, when anyone asks me why I ride regardless of the weather (only has
sleet stopped me from riding last year) I shrug. If they talk of danger or
anything like you are experiencing, I remind them they already determined I
was crazy. I do believe only bikers understand.

Ride on!

David

--
David M Primm
dpr...@iastate.edu

Andy Nourse

unread,
Nov 19, 1993, 5:13:38 AM11/19/93
to
In article <MGSMITH.93...@hpl.hp.com> mgs...@hpl.hp.com (Michael
Smith)>writes:

>If you ride a bike instead of taking a car almost everyday, you can save
>several thousands of dollars a year.

To arrive at this figure, you have to completely replace a large, expensive
gas-guzzler with a bicycle. "Almost" won't do, then you'd still need the car,
and still incur all the fixed costs thereof.

> Maybe then you wouldn't need to work 12 hour days.

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha

> When looking for a place to live (for some this only
> happens once every few decades but it still happens),
> find a place that helps with your commute.

We are not willing to give up our six cats and most of our
belongings to cram into an apartment in the City. We would
rather live in a place that is nice to bicycle in (the
Peninsula O.S.P is all around us) than easy to bicycle from.

If there are barriers to bicycle commuting (such as bridges)

No bridge, just a mountain and a freeway,
and time, to the tune of 5 hours round trip.

>Sure not everybody can not use their cars for commuting to work but most
>could if they really wanted to. Most simply don't want to.

If by this you mean that we are not willing to give up every
other aspect of our lifestyle to do so, perhaps you are right.

bob_roll

unread,
Nov 20, 1993, 5:06:23 PM11/20/93
to
Re: Re: Is there an anti-cycle-commuting conspi


not to mention the lack of car payments when you don't own a car ...

Hans-Joachim Zierke

unread,
Nov 21, 1993, 6:00:00 AM11/21/93
to

On 16.11.93, age...@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Ole Agesen) writes:

> Unsurprisingly, Hans-Joachim is not from the U.S. (nor from California ;-)
> Anyone in the U.S. who can claim the same as Hans-Joachim?

The claim is still only possible for a "subculture", in an urban
environment with good public transport added to bicycle use.

(Sidenote: Winter began here yesterday, and since most cardrivers
are not able to handle their cars, the streets are unusable in
front of intersections. So I simply switch to public transport for
some days.)

In the 80s, this was a "subculture" of pupils and students. In the
90's, not surprisingly, they are urban professionals.

In Berlin, getting rid of a car is widely accepted in an academic
environment. It is still hard to get acceptance in a blue-collar
environment.


hajo

Jennifer R. Accettola

unread,
Nov 21, 1993, 3:40:36 PM11/21/93
to


HEY! Teri started it! She said to be careful or Jenn would turn this
into an alt.cycling.lycra.sex thing and after I read your post I had to wonder
what was on your mind! What's a Ferrari Dino?

Ciao,
Kamikaze Jenn
je...@convex1.tcs.tulane.edu
"There once was a family in Philadelphia that went through
four generations without fingerprints at all: they were
born without prints, the only known case in history. 'This
could present quite a problem for law enforcement,' said
one public official. 'No way,' replied another. 'If the
police ever find a murder weapon in Philly with no prints
on it, we'll know one of *them* did it.'"

--Tom Robbins, 1976 "Even Cowgirls Get the Blues"

Jennifer R. Accettola

unread,
Nov 21, 1993, 3:50:25 PM11/21/93
to
Just wondering if I am the only cyclist on the net who has never
owned (and has no desire to own) a motor vehicle. I have even
gone for four weeks without even riding in my boyfriend's van. I
go grocery shopping on my bike, I go to school on my bike, I go
to the bank downtown on my bike... thus rendering the concept of
"bicycle commuting" irrelevant to my particular situation.

I use my bike for transportation all the time! I actually envy
all those folks on the "anti commuting conspiracy" thread who
ride 21 miles to work-- I wish I had to ride that far! I hate
living in the city!

So, how many cyclists out there have never owned or do not own
a car? The only major disadvantages I face are when I have to
move to a new apartment, and in going out at night (pretty
senseless to ride around New Orleans at 10pm, especially if
you want to go hear music in the French Quarter!).

The advantages are endless-- no car payments, no insurance, no
gas or repair expenses, I don't have to worry about parking (esp.
since most houses don't have off-street parking here!), plus I
stay in shape and set a good example for little kids by wearing
my helmet :) !!

Ciao,

Andre Yew

unread,
Nov 22, 1993, 12:02:43 AM11/22/93
to
je...@convex1.tcs.tulane.edu (Jennifer R. Accettola) writes:

> Just wondering if I am the only cyclist on the net who has never
> owned (and has no desire to own) a motor vehicle. I have even

I don't even know how to drive a car! This always makes
me wonder how street-legal I am, since most cyclists have taken
traffic exams and do know traffic rules (though Santa Barbara
cyclists like to pretend they don't), and all I know is what I've
read in Forrester's _Effective Cycling_ and watching driving friends.
I guess this isn't a big deal since there are small kids out there
riding with the traffic as well.

There are some disadvantages though. Anything that requires
moving heavy things is out. Parking is a problem in a different
way --- you have to have a place to lock the bike up. And travelling
at night can be a problem. Also, sometimes I'm just not motivated to
ride somewhere especially if I've just done a pretty hard ride.

--Andre

--
PGP public key available

Jym Dyer

unread,
Nov 22, 1993, 3:35:19 AM11/22/93
to
> Big savings accrue not by *completely* doing without a car,
> but by being a 1-car family instead of a 2-car family.

=o= 0-car families save even more. I *don't* think it's "silly"
to suggest such a thing. Many families use their car(s) almost
entirely for short trips, and only occasionally for trips of a
substantial duration. In this case it becomes more economical
to stick to bikes and rent a car for those occasional trips.

> There are "car sharing" coops in Europe wherein people share
> the use of one or more cars. Ideal if you only need a car

> occasionally . . .

=o= Great idea!
<_Jym_>
Don't :::: Jym Dyer ::: j...@remarque.berkeley.edu :::: ::::
Be A :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: __Q :::
Fossil ::::: Bumpersticker: "My other car is :::: ==`\<s ::
Fool :::::::::::::::::::::: also a bicycle." :::: (*)^ (*) ::

Jym Dyer

unread,
Nov 22, 1993, 3:39:09 AM11/22/93
to
> So, how many cyclists out there have never owned or do
> not own a car?

=/= I don't own one. Since the age of 16 (when I got my first
driver's license) I've spent 8 years driving autos and 9 years
riding bikes.

> The only major disadvantages I face are when I have to

> move to a new apartment . . .

=\= If you don't have a driver's license, I can see how it
would be a disadvantage. Once when I was in that situation
I ended up carrying everything on my back. Good thing I had
nomadic furniture then.

=/= If you do have a driver's license and you're at least 25,
it's just a matter of renting a car or truck. Since this is
cheaper than owning one, I don't consider it a disadvantage
overall.

> . . . and in going out at night . . .

=\= This is a real stumbling block in some areas, alas.

T...@slacvm.slac.stanford.edu

unread,
Nov 22, 1993, 10:21:18 AM11/22/93
to
>What's a Ferrari Dino?

Ferrari Dino \ fer-ar-e de-no: 1:A dinosaur looking dog used in the Flintstone
cartoon series. Even cowgirls can ride them with or without spandex, but they
have to be careful not to get the blues, or black & blues?
-tom

John Ciccarelli

unread,
Nov 22, 1993, 1:47:48 PM11/22/93
to

In article <C0jmli9...@activis.activision.com>, <wv...@activision.com>
writes:
> Doing 17 [miles] 2x in Los Angeles will be a trick...

Why not do 17 miles 1x, not 2x. Partner with 1 (or 2, or 3) coworkers and keep
a folding bike rack in the trunk of one of their cars ($60 or so; you own it
but they keep it for the duration). You bike in, you and partner drive home.
Partner drops you within 1 or 2 miles of home, you bike the rest of the way.
Or do the whole thing in reverse, where you rideshare in and bike home -- your
choice.

It's called a "bike/carpool".

/John Ciccarelli


Drew W. Saunders

unread,
Nov 22, 1993, 6:09:13 PM11/22/93
to
In article <Jym.22Nov1993.0039@naughty-peahen> Jym Dyer,

j...@remarque.berkeley.edu writes:
>> So, how many cyclists out there have never owned or do
>> not own a car?

I've never owned a car. I'm just too damn cheap, and proud of it.
Actually, I can claim quite reasonably that it wouldn't be
economically sensible from a cost/utility ratio for me to own one
given my current situation. (I live close to work, have no kids,
live near a train station, etc.)

>> The only major disadvantages I face are when I have to
>> move to a new apartment . . .

>=/= If you do have a driver's license and you're at least 25,


>it's just a matter of renting a car or truck.

Not all truck rental places want you to be at least 25. When I
moved I was able to rent a pickup with no extra fees, even though
at the time I wasn't yet 25. All I needed was a current license,
I think it was out of state as well, and they didn't mind.

>> . . . and in going out at night . . .
>
>=\= This is a real stumbling block in some areas, alas.

Again, car rental can be a good option, but might add up in price.
Depends on where you're going. Remember, with all the money
you're saving by not owning a car, the (very) occasional limo
rental might be a worthwile indulgence.

Drew

Drew W. Saunders

unread,
Nov 22, 1993, 6:22:08 PM11/22/93
to
In article <2cph5j$6...@gap.cco.caltech.edu> Andre Yew,

and...@ugcs.caltech.edu writes:
> I don't even know how to drive a car! This always makes
>me wonder how street-legal I am, since most cyclists have taken
>traffic exams and do know traffic rules (though Santa Barbara
>cyclists like to pretend they don't), and all I know is what I've
>read in Forrester's _Effective Cycling_ and watching driving
friends.
>I guess this isn't a big deal since there are small kids out there
>riding with the traffic as well.

While getting my CA driver's license (I even rode my bike to the
DMV) I picked up a little booklet called the "Good Driver's
Handbook" (or something like that) and read it while standing in
line. I ended up getting 1 wrong on the written test. This
either means that: I know a lot about good driving, or that any
moron can get a CA driver's license. It's a wee of the former and
a lot of the latter. I'd recommend going to your local DMV and
getting a copy of the booklet, it's quite useful, and free. I'd
guess that most other states would have a similar booklet.

Drew

Thelma Lubkin

unread,
Nov 22, 1993, 7:22:26 PM11/22/93
to
Jennifer R. Accettola (je...@convex1.tcs.tulane.edu) wrote:
> Just wondering if I am the only cyclist on the net who has never
> owned (and has no desire to own) a motor vehicle.

We owned a car for 4 years at the beginning of our marriage
(Saturday marked 31 years after the beginning); I never learned to
drive it. We brought up 2 children (who aren't continuing the
tradition: our daughter hasn't learned to drive at 25, but she hardly
ever bikes either) with bikes and feet and public transport (and a
little help from friends w/ cars, too)

> I go grocery shopping on my bike, I go to school on my bike, I go
> to the bank downtown on my bike... thus rendering the concept of
> "bicycle commuting" irrelevant to my particular situation.

ditto, ditto, ditto and I go to work on my bike, and to
concerts (especially organ recitals: churches always have shelter for
our bikes), and to beaches, and to doctors and dentists, and to return
exam books to students in my husband's physics classes, and to pick
people up from the airport (no, I don't do that; my husband runs the
pick up service with our tandem whenever he can convince a traveler to
do it)...
--thelma
> Jenn
> je...@convex1.tcs.tulane.edu

Ken Iisaka

unread,
Nov 22, 1993, 7:36:53 PM11/22/93
to
In article <2cokah$d...@news.cs.tulane.edu>, je...@convex1.tcs.tulane.edu (Jennifer R. Accettola) writes:
|> Just wondering if I am the only cyclist on the net who has never
|> owned (and has no desire to own) a motor vehicle. I have even
|> gone for four weeks without even riding in my boyfriend's van. I
|> go grocery shopping on my bike, I go to school on my bike, I go
|> to the bank downtown on my bike... thus rendering the concept of
|> "bicycle commuting" irrelevant to my particular situation.

Not uncommon here in NYC. With $3000+/year in insurance + all the headache you
get from getting your car broken in (my in-laws visiting from Canada had their
car broken in on the second day of their visit, and we live in a "good"
neighbourhood!) it's STOOOOOOOPID to own a car here except under unusual
circumstances. New York Times once called NYC car owners, "transportationally
eccentric." As long as we live in the city, we won't even think about buying a
car. There are much better things on which to spend my money.

--
Ken Iisaka (kii...@is.morgan.com) All opinions and statements
Information Services, Morgan Stanley & Co. Inc. presented here are my own.
1 Pierrepont Plaza, Brooklyn, New York 11201
Work: +1 718 754 2927 Home: +1 718 852 4943 Pager: +1 917 812 5027 (NYC)