another case of clinical "asthma"
MagillaGorilla
Leogrande also lost credibility with the panel over the issue of Ventolin, an albuterol inhaler. He first testified that he had never heard of Ventolin and never had an inhaler. However he later recalled that he had an inhaler, which he called a puffer, and had told a doping-control officer about it, but that he did not know the name of the product.Other evidence in the case included pictures of Leogrande holding EPO vials that were taken by rider Joe Papp and a note that read: “Joe, 2 boxes G. 100 iu; 7 boxes E. 60,000; $500. I owed you! Thanks, Kayle.”
------------------------------
Thanks,
Magilla
Carl Sundquist
> http://velonews.com/article/85515/leogrande-suspended
>
>
> *Leogrande also lost credibility with the panel over the issue of
> Ventolin, an albuterol inhaler. He first testified that he had never
> heard of Ventolin and never had an inhaler. However he later
> recalled that he had an inhaler, which he called a puffer, and had
> told a doping-control officer about it, but that he did not know the
>
> *Other evidence in the case included pictures of Leogrande holding
> EPO vials that were taken by rider Joe Papp and a note that read:
> “Joe, 2 boxes G. 100 iu; 7 boxes E. 60,000; $500. I owed you!
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Thanks,
>
> Magilla
Since you're the one who used the word clinical, explain how it applies
here.
derF...@gmail.com
>
> Other evidence in the case included pictures of Leogrande
> holding EPO vials that were taken by rider Joe Papp and a note
> owed you! Thanks, Kayle.î
I was about to say 'bravo' for the humor. But then I saw that is
actually in the article.
It's still funny though. (I wonder, did Papp provide the pic and the
note?)
MagillaGorilla
Leogrande obviously told the doping control officer about it because he was
told that all he had to do was claim he had asthma. But then he realized he
didn't bother to get the doctor's note.
But if Leogrande wanted to, he could have gotten an asthma diagnosis and Rx
from any doctor. No doubt about it. None. And the USADA would have given
him the TUE.
My point is, where do you think Leogrande - an obviously stupid guy judging
by his tattoos and EPO photo - got the idea to use asthma inhalers if he
doesn't have asthma? Do you think he got that idea from, oh I don't
know...... ALL THE OTHER PROS WHO DO THE SAME THING?
Thanks,
Magilla
Scott
>
> - Show quoted text -
Oh, my god... your note just triggered a memory that I'd long
suppressed. Way back in '92 or '93 I went out to the Redlands Classic
with a bunch of guys on a small team who were competing there for the
first time. I was there in the role of "team manager" for the
weekend. I never gave it any thought, not then, or now, until reading
your message... how strange it was that all these guys (just plain ol'
cat II's) were "asthmatic". What a naive young pup I was then.
MagillaGorilla
Scott wrote:
Yes, yes. This is typical of the people in this sport. Everything is just a
ruse.
Magilla
William Asher
>
> Yes, yes. This is typical of the people in this sport. Everything is
> just a ruse.
Would a ruse by any other name still smell as sweet?
--
Bill Asher
Off The Back
<snip>
> Other evidence in the case included pictures of Leogrande
> holding EPO vials that were taken by rider Joe Papp and a note
> owed you! Thanks, Kayle.Ó
Amazing.
Actually the amazing thing is that it took this long.
Here's the CAS ruling:
http://tinyurl.com/6kx99r
John Forrest Tomlinson
I was in the parking lot of a race in Maine around that time, and one
of the best regional guys says out loud to everyone -- hey, I forgot
my inhaler, does anyone have any Ventolin? (I think that's what he
said). Which I though was odd.
But what was odder was that a bunch of "I do" came from different
directions in the parking lot.
Fred Fredburger
Is ruse a product of Schwartzsoft?
MagillaGorilla
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
The asthma anecdotes just keep rollin' in....I couldn't have made up a better one
if I had hired writers from Jay Leno.
This is an intervention, Carl. Please put the inhaler down. You won't
suffocate. You can go swimming after you eat too. You won't get cramps and
drown.
Magilla
John Forrest Tomlinson
Yeah, but I know at least one racer that really has it. She was at a
race and had to stop because she couldn't breath. At all. Then she
started to black out. Paramedics saved her. Scary. She uses an
inhaler now, though not often.
Carl Sundquist
Where did he get the idea for vicodin? Same place? Do all the other pros
use vicodin?
Unlike your claim that asthma does not exist (that no one else has
supported), I am not aware of a cry that ventolin is not being abused. I
mentioned it at the beginning if this thread as well.
None of which makes his case "clinical".
BTW, I think I recall a while back you said that you don't have a
problem with doping (it is the hypocracy that pisses you off) . I'll try
to find it, but with your spastic bursts of posting it won't easy.
Donald Munro
>> Yes, yes. This is typical of the people in this sport. Everything is
>> just a ruse.
William Asher wrote:
> Would a ruse by any other name still smell as sweet?
Luckily vandalizing Shakespeare is not a crime.
MagillaGorilla
Well, couple things here, JT.
First, how do we know she just wasn't winded? I don't see how we ruled this out.
Second, she didn't actually black out, now did she? I can call paramedics to my
place right now and claim anything from asthma to being unconscious. I could write
my own symptoms.
Sounds like she was just out of shape. The problem is...everything you just
described above does not meet the clinical definition of how you go about diagnosing
asthma. Nothing you said here is objective.
When you get dropped from a race, that's what happens! Some people train harder to
avoid that while others immediately claim that a medical condition must be to blame
(after all it can't be their fault).
I got news for you - this girl did not have asthma. She just couldn't face up to the
reality that she got dropped.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: the definition of asthma isn't when you
get dropped from the lead break in a bike race. That might be Joe Papp's definition
along with every Italian and Spanish Pro Tour rider, but it's not the one the AMA
espouses.
Thanks,
Magilla
MagillaGorilla
Drinking Gatorade is technically a form of doping. So is eating the right food.
The problem I have with doping is it limits only pharmaceuticals. How come
hypoxic tents are allowed if they give the same benefit as EPO?
How come motorpacing is allowed - that's artificial?
Gatorade..Powerbar...these are special substances designed specifically to
enhance performance, no? There's no nutritional value to them.
I don't see why pharm is treated differently. Or at least I can't get too
righteous about it. But since it's the rules, thems be the rules. Cyclists
agree to abide by these arbitrary rules, so I don't have any sympathy if they get
busted. And claiming you have a medical condition to get a doctor's note is
really gay. Hopefully Prop 8 will prevent this from happening in the future,
since it bans gay lifestyles.
Magilla
John Forrest Tomlinson
<mag...@sandiegozoo.com> wrote:
>First, how do we know she just wasn't winded? I don't see how we ruled this out.
>
>Second, she didn't actually black out, now did she? I can call paramedics to my
>place right now and claim anything from asthma to being unconscious. I could write
>my own symptoms.
>
>Sounds like she was just out of shape. The problem is...everything you just
>described above does not meet the clinical definition of how you go about diagnosing
>asthma. Nothing you said here is objective.
>
>When you get dropped from a race, that's what happens!
This was when she was warming up and hanging out before the event.
She didn't get to race that day.
Donald Munro
> Gatorade..Powerbar...these are special substances designed specifically to
> enhance performance, no? There's no nutritional value to them.
You mean you can eat as many as you want and you won't get fat ?
MagillaGorilla
When athletes warm up, their body physiologically changes to put them in a "race-ready"
state. So their heart rate goes up, their blood vessels constrict, and their breathing
rate accelerates and left ventricular pumping volume increases.
Sounds like she suffered an anxiety attack to me, not asthma. She was probably worried
about her fitness and just caved.
This cold case is solved.
Detective Magilla
Cold Case Asthma Unit
Carl Sundquist
>
> Second, she didn't actually black out, now did she? I can call paramedics to my
> place right now and claim anything from asthma to being unconscious.
That's a good trick. Why not just call them and tell them that you're dead?
Carl Sundquist
Feces flinger,
What does that have to do with you claiming that Leogrande was "another
case of clinical 'asthma'"?
William Asher
It's allowed in this case since he was named for me.
It involved a fifth of tequila, a time machine, and an improperly inserted
IUD. Don't ask.
--
Bill Asher
Amit Ghosh
>
> Where did he get the idea for vicodin? Same place? Do all the other pros
> use vicodin?
dumbass,
where did chad gerlach get the idea to smoke crack ?
some people just like to use drugs.
MagillaGorilla
You think Randolph Mantooth can diagnose asthma when he rolls up in that red Ford? C'mon.
http://www.pullbuoy.co.uk/asthma.html
After a series of bronchitis incidences a few years ago, I myself was diagnosed as an asthmatic. For about two years I took medication, which I felt had little effect on my ‘asthma symptoms’. Diagnosis and medical intervention for exercise-induced bronchospasm are often based on self-reported symptoms, without spirometric confirmation8I was ordered to undergo such tests by the ASFGB in order to ‘prove’ I was asthmatic and therefore that I required medication. The tests came back and showed that my lung function was completely normal and that I did not have asthma.
Thanks,
Magilla
MagillaGorilla
Carl Sundquist wrote:
Leogrande had a diagnosis for his asthma from his doctor (did you read the CAS
opinion). Gee, what a surprise. It's not like he has a doper's mentality or
anything. Gee, I wonder how come he couldn't get a TUE for that condition? Do you
think it has to do with the fact that USADA now requires more extensive testing that
he couldn't pass?
Do you think Nathan O'Neil qualified for a TUE for a weight-loss medication
considering he was probably 5-8% body fat and the prescription he was given is
intended to be prescribed only to "morbidly obese" people whose weight problems
adversely affect their health?
Keep 'em coming. The bullets are just bouncing off my chest of steel.
Thanks,
Magilla
Ryan Cousineau
William Asher <gcn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Oh Bill. Stealing from HHGTTG is low even for a porn star.
--
Ryan Cousineau rcou...@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."
Carl Sundquist
No, I read about halfway through it. I saw the beginning where he
'fessed to Sonye and kept reading until I saw where he had put ventolin
on the meds taken list, then stopped where he made all his lame denials.
Evidently you didn't read all the way through it initially either or you
would have mentioned this yesterday.
If the situation is true that he couldn't get qualify for a TUE, then he
was a dumbass for writing it on the list in the sense that he didn't
write EPO or vicodin, but he wrote ventolin w/o having a TUE.
I don't know much about the O'Neil situ. I would be surprised if USADA
even allows TUEs at all for weight loss meds. By the way, if asthma
doesn't exist, why does WADA allow for asthma TUEs?
Donald Munro
> some people just like to use drugs.
We're (rbrHard) have a free Viagra promotion at the release of the next
Asher porn movie.
Michael Press
William Asher <gcn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
It would smell like Denmark.
--
Michael Press
William Asher
>
> Oh Bill. Stealing from HHGTTG is low even for a porn star.
>
I did? I'm not having a good week so it's not surprising. But I find it
hard to believe Douglas Adams used the phrase "improperly inserted IUD"
anywhere in that series. The closest he came to that was in "The Meaning
of Lif" when he provided the definition of "scroggins" (actually a small
town in Texas) as "the stout pubic hairs found in the moussaka at cheap
Greek restaraunts." FWIW, I never claimed to be a porn star. I mean, you
don't call Julia Phillips a movie star.
I just have to share this excerpt from Anathem (N. Stephenson), which is an
exchange between the main character, Erasmus, and his sister Cord:
"I can't predict the future," I said, "but based on what little I know so
far, I'm afraid it has to be massive adventure or nothing."
"Great!"
"Probably the kind of adventure that ends in a mass burial."
That quieted her down a little bit, but after a while she said: "Do you
need transportation? Tools? Stuff?"
"Our opponent is an alien starship packed with atomic bombs," I said. "We
have a protractor."
"Okay, I'll go home and see if I can scrounge up a ruler and a piece of
string."
"That'd be great."
I only posted this to get on Tom's nerves since it has nothing to do with
cycling.
--
Bill Asher
MagillaGorilla
> >
> No, I read about halfway through it. I saw the beginning where he
> 'fessed to Sonye and kept reading until I saw where he had put ventolin
> on the meds taken list, then stopped where he made all his lame denials.
>
> Evidently you didn't read all the way through it initially either or you
> would have mentioned this yesterday.
>
> If the situation is true that he couldn't get qualify for a TUE, then he
> was a dumbass for writing it on the list in the sense that he didn't
> write EPO or vicodin, but he wrote ventolin w/o having a TUE.
>
> I don't know much about the O'Neil situ. I would be surprised if USADA
> even allows TUEs at all for weight loss meds. By the way, if asthma
> doesn't exist, why does WADA allow for asthma TUEs?
Leogrande couldn't get a TUE because he doesn't have asthma and his doctor either didn't
want to falsify the test or Leogrande couldn't find a "player" doctor or was most likley
just too lazy to go doctor shopping to find the right player to fill out the TUE forms.
O'Neil got a prescription for a weight loss medication despite being 5-8% body fat. The
prescription he got was only intended for patients who were morbidly obese. When O'Neil
applied for this prescription - which he claims he had for years - he was the Australina
national TT champion and had elite fitness.
Most doctors are more than happy to falsify any justification for any prescription. They
don't care. O'Neil couldn't get a TUE because USADA changed the rules to make it
harder. O'Neil couldn't cvlaim he needed this weight loss medical for his health, since
he was obviously using it for only performance enhancement.
WADA allows for asthma because when they originally started they didn't want to overrule
medical doctors and they never imagined that so many athletes would be applying for a
TUE. But now it's becoming obvious that the bigger problems are athletes and physicians
who act in concerr to circumvent anti-doping rules simply by claiming they have a medical
condition. That's how you end up with 50% of cyclists claiming to have clinical asthma.
It's a joke.
I mean wouldn't 50% of the general population also have asthma too?
The m,edical profession was and always will be the number one source of doping. The
medical profession is basically an industry that claims to have a pill to solve every
problem. That's why 50% of cyclists have a prescription for asthma.
You think doctors are honest? Doctors are some of the most dishonest people as a cohot
you will ever want to meet.
Magilla
Ryan Cousineau
William Asher <gcn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>
> >
> > Oh Bill. Stealing from HHGTTG is low even for a porn star.
> >
>
> I did? I'm not having a good week so it's not surprising. But I find it
> hard to believe Douglas Adams used the phrase "improperly inserted IUD"
> anywhere in that series. The closest he came to that was in "The Meaning
> of Lif" when he provided the definition of "scroggins" (actually a small
> town in Texas) as "the stout pubic hairs found in the moussaka at cheap
> Greek restaraunts." FWIW, I never claimed to be a porn star. I mean, you
> don't call Julia Phillips a movie star.
Well, an IUD wasn't mentioned by name.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaphod_Beeblebrox
'Because of "an accident with a contraceptive and a time machine", his
direct ancestors from his father (Zaphod Beeblebrox the Second) are also
his direct descendants (see Zaphod Beeblebrox the Fourth).'
> I just have to share this excerpt from Anathem (N. Stephenson), which is an
> exchange between the main character, Erasmus, and his sister Cord:
Chort. I just finished reading it.
> "I can't predict the future," I said, "but based on what little I know so
> far, I'm afraid it has to be massive adventure or nothing."
>
> "Great!"
>
> "Probably the kind of adventure that ends in a mass burial."
I have no idea what they were worried about.
In the long run, we are all dead,
Donald Munro
> I did? I'm not having a good week so it's not surprising. But I find it
> hard to believe Douglas Adams used the phrase "improperly inserted IUD"
> anywhere in that series.
Which begs the question what constitutes a bad week for a porn starlet ?
OTOH perhaps the answer might be a case of too much information,
particularly if the answer involves IUD's with Taiwenese manuals.
Come to think of it an IUD manual adds a new dimension to the RTFM
idiom.
> I only posted this to get on Tom's nerves since it has nothing to do
> with cycling.
Perl-based lifeforms nervous systems are poorly structured.
Carl Sundquist
That's the least thought out thing you've ever posted. Asthma drug
testing has been around for almost 40 years, if not longer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_DeMont
Now a stupid monkey would just claim that it just reinforces what you
have been saying. It probably does. But it also says that records of
asthma meds in dope testing have been around a long time. So to say
"WADA allows for asthma because when they originally started they didn't
want to overrule medical doctors and they never imagined that so many
athletes would be applying for a TUE." is bullshit. They've known how
many athletes have been using it for a very long time.
>
> I mean wouldn't 50% of the general population also have asthma too?
>
> The m,edical profession was and always will be the number one source of doping. The
> medical profession is basically an industry that claims to have a pill to solve every
> problem. That's why 50% of cyclists have a prescription for asthma.
>
> You think doctors are honest? Doctors are some of the most dishonest people as a cohot
> you will ever want to meet.
>
> Magilla
>
With all due respect to Steve, whom I've never met, what makes you think
dentists are any more honest than general medical doctors? I'm sure
Steve's heard many stories from patients who have had their mouths
filled with fillings from other dentists, then, strangely enough, no
longer need fillings once he becomes their dentist. Or unnecessary
crowns. Or facets of cosmetic dentistry.
Just because you love dentists doesn't make them any better or worse
than another branch of medicine.
William Asher
>
> Well, an IUD wasn't mentioned by name.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaphod_Beeblebrox
>
> 'Because of "an accident with a contraceptive and a time machine", his
> direct ancestors from his father (Zaphod Beeblebrox the Second) are
> also his direct descendants (see Zaphod Beeblebrox the Fourth).'
<sigh> Oh yeah. Oh well. At least nobody reads usenet and Adams is dead.
--
Bill Asher
Michael Press
Donald Munro <fat-d...@hotmail.com> wrote:
We like to think of ourselves as protean.
--
Michael Press
Michael Press
MagillaGorilla <mag...@sandiegozoo.com> wrote:
> Carl Sundquist wrote:
>
> > >
> > No, I read about halfway through it. I saw the beginning where he
> > 'fessed to Sonye and kept reading until I saw where he had put ventolin
> > on the meds taken list, then stopped where he made all his lame denials.
> >
> > Evidently you didn't read all the way through it initially either or you
> > would have mentioned this yesterday.
> >
> > If the situation is true that he couldn't get qualify for a TUE, then he
> > was a dumbass for writing it on the list in the sense that he didn't
> > write EPO or vicodin, but he wrote ventolin w/o having a TUE.
> >
> > I don't know much about the O'Neil situ. I would be surprised if USADA
> > even allows TUEs at all for weight loss meds. By the way, if asthma
> > doesn't exist, why does WADA allow for asthma TUEs?
>
> Leogrande couldn't get a TUE because he doesn't have asthma and his doctor either didn't
> want to falsify the test or Leogrande couldn't find a "player" doctor or was most likley
> just too lazy to go doctor shopping to find the right player to fill out the TUE forms.
That is lazy. Open the yellow pages and start calling.
-- Dr. Vinnie Boom Botz's office.
-- Yes. I want to make an appointment for my asthma.
-- Would tomorrow at one o'clock be convenient?
[ignoring the obvious "What is your asthma's name?"]
--
Michael Press
Michael Press
> I mean wouldn't 50% of the general population also have asthma too?
[a-huhung, a-huhung, a-huhung, spritz, ahhhhhh]
--
Michael Press
Carl Sundquist
Furthermore, nobody knows how many riders use inhalers. WADA only knows
how many riders that they test who's urine shows metabolites for
inhalers and how many don't. They don't know diddly squat about the
riders that they didn't test, which is a huge majority of the riders.
Carl Sundquist
I don't care about the O'Neil case. Start another thread for that. I
went back and reread the opinion. You should too.What makes you believe
Leogrande actually had a doctor diagnose him as having asthma? Because
Leogrande claimed it? If you believe that, is it reasonable to conclude
that you believe the rest of his testimony? If not, why is the inhaler
different?
Donald Munro
>> > I only posted this to get on Tom's nerves since it has nothing to do
>> > with cycling.
Donald Munro wrote:
>> Perl-based lifeforms nervous systems are poorly structured.
Michael Press wrote:
> We like to think of ourselves as protean.
First time use on rbr (not counting misspellings of protein) and
quite apposite for robert/bruce:
<http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=protean>
1. readily assuming different forms or characters; extremely variable.
2. changeable in shape or form, as an amoeba.
3. (of an actor or actress) versatile; able to play many kinds of roles.
MagillaGorilla
Leogrande's attorney stated on Page 11 (68a.) of his doping arbitration hearing that he
had a doctor who prescribed albuterol (i.e. Ventalin). It is reasonable to assume they
also had the necessary exhibits to prove that, but nobody is privy to those exhibits
outside the arbitration process.
There is arguably only one reason a doctor would prescribe that - asthma.
Magilla