ullrich speaks french?

0 views
Skip to first unread message

Soldier462

unread,
Jun 20, 2001, 2:26:13 PM6/20/01
to
i was just reading the page on cyclingnews.com about voet's book, and it says
when virenque bought his stage, he told ullrich, "tu me laisses gagner,
ok".....does ullrich even speak french? if not, maybe this whole thing is a
hoax.


jca

zeno

unread,
Jun 20, 2001, 3:54:23 PM6/20/01
to
Dunno if there is any truth to this story at all, but I would be very
surprised if Jan hadn't picked up enough french after years of competitive
international cycling with diverse teammates to parlez enough to do a deal.
If you think about it, money is an international language and this was
(allegedly) a pretty simple transaction.

Beyond that, maybe Virenque speaks german - or enough to do a deal. Don't
use the USA's relative lack of multi-lingualism as a yardstick of how things
are in the European peloton.

Although I don't find the allegations far fetched, without reliable
independent corroboration, I don't think this story is worth any more than
than Roussel's personal credibility.

After all the fuming Jan has been doing about suing Willy Voet, you would
think his solicitor's are already filing papers against Roussel and Le
Monde. Could be an interesting trial.

zeno

Antonio

unread,
Jun 20, 2001, 3:07:05 PM6/20/01
to
Paying off other cyclists has been going on for years... even in the amateur
ranks it is very common.

I saw a video clip of the actual stage in question, and you see Ullrich and
Virenque side by side and Ullrich putting his thumb and forefinger together
"symbolizing" money on the climb to the finish.... anyway, cyclists make
deals ALL the time... no big deal...

AP


AVA

unread,
Jun 20, 2001, 3:08:10 PM6/20/01
to
zeno wrote:

> Beyond that, maybe Virenque speaks german - or enough to do a deal. Don't
> use the USA's relative lack of multi-lingualism as a yardstick of how things
> are in the European peloton.

I habe gehoren deine Mutter ist 'multi-lingual'.

prost!

benjo maso

unread,
Jun 20, 2001, 3:47:00 PM6/20/01
to

"zeno" <zen...@telocity.com> schreef in bericht
news:B7564D7F.A9EE%zen...@telocity.com...

> Dunno if there is any truth to this story at all, but I would be very
> surprised if Jan hadn't picked up enough french after years of competitive
> international cycling with diverse teammates to parlez enough to do a
deal.
> If you think about it, money is an international language and this was
> (allegedly) a pretty simple transaction.
>
> Beyond that, maybe Virenque speaks german - or enough to do a deal. Don't
> use the USA's relative lack of multi-lingualism as a yardstick of how
things
> are in the European peloton.
>
> Although I don't find the allegations far fetched, without reliable
> independent corroboration, I don't think this story is worth any more than
> than Roussel's personal credibility.
>
> After all the fuming Jan has been doing about suing Willy Voet, you would
> think his solicitor's are already filing papers against Roussel and Le
> Monde. Could be an interesting trial.


Why in the world should he sue Le Monde and Roussel? There was absolutely
nothing wrong in letting Virenque winning the stage and asking some money in
return, neither morally nor legally. On the contrary, it was quite logical.
And yes, of course the story is true, but it's old hat. Everybody who has
seen it on TV and isn't completely naive knew it already. The only news in
Roussel's story are the ridiculous sums Virenque offered to Pantani and
Olano to help him. Virenque was really too stupid to win a big race.

Benjo Maso


Robert Chung

unread,
Jun 20, 2001, 3:38:28 PM6/20/01
to

zeno wrote:
>
> Dunno if there is any truth to this story at all, but I would be very
> surprised if Jan hadn't picked up enough french after years of competitive
> international cycling with diverse teammates to parlez enough to do a deal.
> If you think about it, money is an international language and this was
> (allegedly) a pretty simple transaction.

The excerpt from Roussel's book published in Le Monde
(www.lemonde.fr) alludes to Ullrich's ability to comprehend.
Virenque is alleged to ask, "Tu me laisses gagner, OK?" Roussel
writes: "Ullrich n'avait pas besoin d'interprete. Seulement d'une
calculette."

["Virenque: 'You let me win, OK?' Ullrich didn't need an
interpreter. Only a calculator."]

--Robert Chung

zeno

unread,
Jun 20, 2001, 5:39:54 PM6/20/01
to
> From: "benjo maso" <Benjo...@chello.nl>

> Why in the world should he sue Le Monde and Roussel? There was absolutely
> nothing wrong in letting Virenque winning the stage and asking some money in
> return, neither morally nor legally.

I don't think anybody is disputing that there is a long history of this
practice in cycling, as there is of doping as well. As to whether it is
actually "legal" under the rules of the race organizations or in the
countries involved is another question. Do you know this to be an absolute
fact, or do you simply believe it's O.K because it happens and no one is
charged?

I may be "naive", but I would be very surprised if, right after a big stage,
it was publicly revealed with reliable evidence and testimony that a win had
been "sold" for money that the TDF would do nothing about it.

If it is "morally" and "legally" acceptable, then why is it not routinely
discussed in public by the participants as part of post race coverage?

L'Equipe: "Jan, could you please tell all your fans why you unexpectedly
faded when you had seemed so strong?"

Ullrich: "Well, I could have easily won that stage, but Richard offered me
100,000 francs at the bottom of the last climb to fold, so I let him have
it. I need new tires for my Porche"

L'Equipe: Bravo, mon vieux -- What a personal coup! You are a true
champion"

Jean-Marie Leblanc: "C'est magnifique! The Societe is so pleased Jan could
use this stage to put new tires on his Porche. Of course, it was entirely
moral and legal"

I don't think I'll ever hear that one.

As to why Jan would sue Roussel. Perhaps it's just a cultural difference,
but over here, "fixing" the outcome of a race is considered neither moral
nor ethical, and in the case of professional events, is often illegal. I
would think that Jan would find it damaging to his reputation to let such a
public charge against his honor go unanswered.

If such activity is considered "morally and legally" perfectly acceptable
over there, please remind me not to bet on a horse race if I ever come to
Holland again.

zeno

Henry Chang

unread,
Jun 20, 2001, 4:51:14 PM6/20/01
to
On Wed, 20 Jun 2001 21:47:00 +0200, "benjo maso"
<Benjo...@chello.nl> wrote:
>
>The only news in
>Roussel's story are the ridiculous sums Virenque offered to Pantani and
>Olano to help him. Virenque was really too stupid to win a big race.


I agree with this.

It's amazing that he wouldn't have seized that opportunity, especially
since he's stated that he lives for the TdF.

It's also too bad for us fans because that would have made for a very
interesting day!

I now have even less respect for Virenque than before.


Henry

benjo maso

unread,
Jun 20, 2001, 5:47:01 PM6/20/01
to

"zeno" <zen...@telocity.com> schreef in bericht
news:B756663A.AA09%zen...@telocity.com...


A fixed race as far as I know is a race in which the winner is known in
advance. In bicycle racing it's completely different. To take the Courchevel
stage: nobody knew that Ulrich and Virenque would be in front during the
last climb, not even the two protagonists themselves. But when they were,
both of them tried to gain benefit from the situation as much as possible.
For Ullrich winning the Tour, and for Virenque winning the stage. So they
made a little arangement. If Ullrich indignantly had rejected Virenque's
proposal, Virenque wouldn't have been collaborated with the probable outcome
that neither of them would have gained anything. IMO it's not only logical
and acceptable, but it's just one of the things which makes the Tour so
interesting. The TDF is in many ways a microcosmos of society as a whole, a
quality lacking in a horse race. Bicycle racing, thank God, isn't a sport
where the best athlete wins, but where the best man wins, i.e., the man
which isn't only a great athlete, but also a great strategist, a fine
diplomate, a good judge of character, a clever businessman. And of course he
should be a good performer. Because the Tour is also a show, which is the
reason why Ullrich or Virenque kept their mouth shut about what has
happened. Not because it's immoral, but because a large part of the public
prefers the illusion to knowing what's happening behind the scene.

Benjo Maso


Bart Van Hoorebeeck

unread,
Jun 20, 2001, 5:54:49 PM6/20/01
to
Benjo, I always enjoy reading you but I must warn you, you're pushing Them
Always Honest Yanks a bit too far at once here.

Bart


zeno

unread,
Jun 20, 2001, 7:26:35 PM6/20/01
to
> From: "benjo maso" <Benjo...@chello.nl>

>
> A fixed race as far as I know is a race in which the winner is known in
> advance. In bicycle racing it's completely different.

(Snip)
(Since you didn't address it, I assume you don't actually know whether or
not rider payoffs to each other are legal.)

I can't agree with your definition. The fact that the "fixed" outcome was
arranged after the start of the race really has no bearing. The outcome is
the same if top riders are involved. As soon as any key decision turns on
the offer of money, the race is fixed. (The fact that a fix may not be
successful does not change what happened. A bribe is a bribe. The fact that
many factors may be weighed before a rider accepts or turns down money
really has nothing to do with it.)

If I am a rich rider and I circulate through the peleton during the race and
offer all the top contenders a lot of money to lie doggo so I can win, I am
most assuredly "fixing" the outcome for my own benefit. Or I may be fixing
the race for the benefit of a gambler who has bet a lot of money on the
event and is paying me off big time. As soon as you let in rider payoffs,
you open a Pandora's box that you cannot control.

This has nothing to do with sportsmanship or athletic ability and everything
to do with lots of cash and the potential corruption of the sport. Under the
table payoffs in sports are as bad or worse in there effects than dope. They
totally undermine credibility with the public.

>The TDF is in many ways a microcosmos of society as a whole, a
> quality lacking in a horse race. Bicycle racing, thank God, isn't a sport
> where the best athlete wins, but where the best man wins, i.e., the man
> which isn't only a great athlete, but also a great strategist, a fine
> diplomate, a good judge of character, a clever businessman.

Sounds like a nice game show, but it's not like the riders all have the same
amount of money as "businessmen" at the start like a Monopoly game. When
payoffs are OK, then richest riders and teams con just roll to the podium
using their check books as their most potent tactical weapon. Every race
would be based on who made the biggest payoffs. Geez, a new sport -- fascist
cycling. Not my cuppa.

> And of course he
> should be a good performer. Because the Tour is also a show, which is the
> reason why Ullrich or Virenque kept their mouth shut about what has
> happened. Not because it's immoral, but because a large part of the public
> prefers the illusion to knowing what's happening behind the scene.
>

He He -- I love this part -- they are protecting the public! They are
altruists! Only a few of us insiders know the real truth. Thank God we can
handle it.

I'd say (if it happened) Jan & Richard kept their mouths shut for the most
obvious reasons: what they did was immoral, unethical, and probably
illegal, would be deeply resented by their fans and sponsors, and they don't
want to get caught.

Even though this is "old news", IMO, if Jan does nothing about this charge,
he is as much as admitting it is true.

zeno

John Forrest Tomlinson

unread,
Jun 20, 2001, 6:45:20 PM6/20/01
to
"Soldier462" <soldi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010620142613...@ng-cf1.aol.com...

Does Virenque have any credibility at all? I'd certainly believe
Roussel over Virenque.

JT


--
*******************************************
NB: reply-to address is munged

Visit http://www.jt10000.com
*******************************************


Jason Waddell

unread,
Jun 20, 2001, 7:01:27 PM6/20/01
to
I wonder how many Peso's that little Mexican fellow gave to Simoni....

Jason Waddell

benjo maso

unread,
Jun 20, 2001, 7:37:17 PM6/20/01
to

"zeno" <zen...@telocity.com> schreef in bericht
news:B7567F3A.AA2D%zen...@telocity.com...

> > From: "benjo maso" <Benjo...@chello.nl>
> >
> > A fixed race as far as I know is a race in which the winner is known in
> > advance. In bicycle racing it's completely different.
>
> (Snip)
> (Since you didn't address it, I assume you don't actually know whether or
> not rider payoffs to each other are legal.)

There has never been brought charges to a rider having taking or offering
money during the race. Let's hope it stays that way, although the present
witch-hunt concerning "doping" is a bad omen.

>
> I can't agree with your definition. The fact that the "fixed" outcome was
> arranged after the start of the race really has no bearing. The outcome is
> the same if top riders are involved. As soon as any key decision turns on
> the offer of money, the race is fixed. (The fact that a fix may not be
> successful does not change what happened. A bribe is a bribe. The fact
that
> many factors may be weighed before a rider accepts or turns down money
> really has nothing to do with it.)

> If I am a rich rider and I circulate through the peleton during the race
and
> offer all the top contenders a lot of money to lie doggo so I can win, I
am
> most assuredly "fixing" the outcome for my own benefit.


Yes, but what makes bicycle racing so interesting is that such efforts may
abort even when all top riders have accepted a deal. A fine example is the
Worldchampionship of '75, when all the favorites had agreed to let Roger de
Vlamynck win. But because De Vlamynck hadn't taken the trouble to involve
the relatively unknown Hennie Kuiper in the plot, he finished second ...
Or three years later, when a few miles from the finish Francesco Moser and
Gerrie Knetemann were in front together. Moser, the reigning champion and
always very generous, offered Knetemann an enormous sum. Knetemann said yes,
but forgot it when he saw the finish and became worldchampion. When the
other riders heard about it, they were all incensed. At Knetemann, of
course.

Or I may be fixing
> the race for the benefit of a gambler who has bet a lot of money on the
> event and is paying me off big time. As soon as you let in rider payoffs,
> you open a Pandora's box that you cannot control.


True, but there is nothing in life you can control. But anyhow, offering and
paying money has been a common practice in bicycle racing for more than a
century. And although there have been some excesses, it hasn't done much
harm generally. On the contrary. Races without negociations, attempts to
find allies, conclude pacts, etc. are usually very dull.

> This has nothing to do with sportsmanship or athletic ability and
everything
> to do with lots of cash and the potential corruption of the sport. Under
the
> table payoffs in sports are as bad or worse in there effects than dope.
They
> totally undermine credibility with the public.

The European public has known for many years, and most of them don't give a
damn. On the contrary, many think it makes races even more interesting.

>
> >The TDF is in many ways a microcosmos of society as a whole, a
> > quality lacking in a horse race. Bicycle racing, thank God, isn't a
sport
> > where the best athlete wins, but where the best man wins, i.e., the man
> > which isn't only a great athlete, but also a great strategist, a fine
> > diplomate, a good judge of character, a clever businessman.
>
> Sounds like a nice game show, but it's not like the riders all have the
same
> amount of money as "businessmen" at the start like a Monopoly game. When
> payoffs are OK, then richest riders and teams con just roll to the podium
> using their check books as their most potent tactical weapon. Every race
> would be based on who made the biggest payoffs. Geez, a new sport --
fascist
> cycling. Not my cuppa.


Fascist cycling?!? I'm afraid I don't see the link. I would rather say:
capitalist cycling. Fortunately it won't go that far. To buy a Tour de
France or another really important race, you have to a billionaire. Even in
the 1970's when the budgets were ridiculously small and only a few top
riders earned much money, it was already difficult. At present it's
impossible.

A rider who really sells a important race, deserves to lose. Not morally,
but because he is stupid, and being stupid being a bad rider. Let me give
you an example. During the french championship 1976 Alain Meslet and Guy
Sibille were in front. Meslet was the strongest, but for an enormous amount
of money accepted to lose. It was the only important victory in Sibille's
career, but he profited from his title as "French champion" to set up a
prosperous firm in sport articles and became a rich man. Meslet is still
sulking ...


>
> > And of course he
> > should be a good performer. Because the Tour is also a show, which is
the
> > reason why Ullrich or Virenque kept their mouth shut about what has
> > happened. Not because it's immoral, but because a large part of the
public
> > prefers the illusion to knowing what's happening behind the scene.
> >
>
> He He -- I love this part -- they are protecting the public! They are
> altruists! Only a few of us insiders know the real truth. Thank God we can
> handle it.

A performer who doesn't explain his tricks isn't protecting the public, but
his own status as a performer.


>
> I'd say (if it happened) Jan & Richard kept their mouths shut for the most
> obvious reasons: what they did was immoral, unethical, and probably
> illegal, would be deeply resented by their fans and sponsors, and they
don't
> want to get caught.

You're quite wrong. As I said: in the Couchevel stage everybody saw Virenque
and Ullrich were discussing money and it was extensively commented in the
newspapers. There is no evidence that their fans or sponsors resented even a
tiny bit. However, Ullrich's clumsiness caused some mirth.

>
> Even though this is "old news", IMO, if Jan does nothing about this
charge,
> he is as much as admitting it is true.


We're now at the beginning again. I'd say so what? But I have a feeling you
don't agree.

Benjo Maso


benjo maso

unread,
Jun 20, 2001, 7:38:07 PM6/20/01
to

"Bart Van Hoorebeeck" <gudru...@vt4.net> schreef in bericht
news:3b311c3e$0$190$4d4e...@news.be.uu.net...

> Benjo, I always enjoy reading you but I must warn you, you're pushing Them
> Always Honest Yanks a bit too far at once here.


Touché!


Benjo Maso


Kevin LaCour

unread,
Jun 20, 2001, 8:35:01 PM6/20/01
to
On 20 Jun 2001 23:01:27 GMT, jjwb...@aol.com12345 (Jason Waddell)
wrote:

>I wonder how many Peso's that little Mexican fellow gave to Simoni....
>
>Jason Waddell

Maybe all he gave him was his two front teeth.

Regards -
ktl

Steven Woo

unread,
Jun 20, 2001, 8:31:31 PM6/20/01
to
On 20 Jun 2001 23:01:27 GMT, jjwb...@aol.com12345 (Jason Waddell)
wrote:

>I wonder how many Peso's that little Mexican fellow gave to Simoni....
>
>Jason Waddell
>
Well let's see, he gave his two front teeth on that one stage, then on
the other, he broke his chain on purpose so someone else would win...

zeno

unread,
Jun 20, 2001, 10:41:47 PM6/20/01
to
> From: "benjo maso" <Benjo...@chello.nl>

>
> We're now at the beginning again. I'd say so what? But I have a feeling you
> don't agree.
>

You are correct, I don't agree.

But then, I have seen the true depth of the Rosicrusians control of the
peleton in all it's subtlety. You have apparently only glimpsed the vague
shadows of the dark conspiracy on the wall of the cave. And I dare not even
speak of the Illuminati's role in these matters.

If I were to tell you the whole truth, I'm afraid the Agency would have to
hunt you down and kill you.

zeno

benjo maso

unread,
Jun 20, 2001, 10:00:53 PM6/20/01
to

"zeno" <zen...@telocity.com> schreef in bericht
news:B756ACFB.AA6E%zen...@telocity.com...


I'm sure I can make a financial arrangement with it, satisfying to both
parties and with the public knowing nothing about it.

Benjo Maso


Carl Sundquist

unread,
Jun 20, 2001, 9:50:04 PM6/20/01
to

"Kevin LaCour" <kla...@yahoo.comNOT> wrote in message
news:iqf2jtogni76qlo4i...@4ax.com...
Isn't there a children's Christmas song about that?


zeno

unread,
Jun 20, 2001, 11:13:47 PM6/20/01
to
> From: "benjo maso" <Benjo...@chello.nl>

>
> I'm sure I can make a financial arrangement with it, satisfying to both
> parties and with the public knowing nothing about it.

True

zeno

Tim Mullin

unread,
Jun 20, 2001, 10:13:08 PM6/20/01
to

"zeno" <zen...@telocity.com> wrote in message
news:B756ACFB.AA6E%zen...@telocity.com...

> But then, I have seen the true depth of the Rosicrusians control of the
> peleton in all it's subtlety. You have apparently only glimpsed the
vague
> shadows of the dark conspiracy on the wall of the cave. And I dare not
even
> speak of the Illuminati's role in these matters.

Dude, you've got it all wrong. Euro racing is controlled by the Freemasons.
Here in the US, the Trilateral Commision runs the show.


zeno

unread,
Jun 20, 2001, 11:20:28 PM6/20/01
to
For reasons best left unstated, all I can say is that the Rosicrusians want
you to *believe* that the Freemasons control Euro racing. It's really their
Turf.

(Please keep this info and it's source strictly within the confines of rbr.
My life is already in danger.)

zeno

Theodore Heise

unread,
Jun 20, 2001, 10:18:49 PM6/20/01
to
Bart Van Hoorebeeck writes:
> Benjo, I always enjoy reading you but I must warn you, you're pushing Them
> Always Honest Yanks a bit too far at once here.

Yes, I for one am shocked. Shocked!

Ted

--
Theodore W. Heise <the...@netins.net> West Lafayette, IN, USA
PGP public key: http://showcase.netins.net/web/twheise/theise.txt

Tim Mullin

unread,
Jun 20, 2001, 10:37:18 PM6/20/01
to

"zeno" <zen...@telocity.com> wrote in message
news:B756B60C.AA79%zen...@telocity.com...

> (Please keep this info and it's source strictly within the confines of
rbr.
> My life is already in danger.)

There is hope, brother. www.subgenius.com Pull the wool over your own eyes!


Bart Van Hoorebeeck

unread,
Jun 21, 2001, 3:05:57 AM6/21/01
to
zeno wrote:

> event and is paying me off big time. As soon as you let in rider payoffs,
> you open a Pandora's box that you cannot control.
>

"letting in payoffs", "opening Pandora's Box". You are really funny.
These things have always been there, and more so at the lower echelons
(kermesses...) than at top level, where it's mostly about sharing some
bits of the pie.

Can't you see that cycling's unpredictability makes this all bearable
and even interesting? It's not like all those ball-"sports" where you
can arrange whatever result beforehand for the sake of some organized
crime syndicate. This is grassroots stuff, daily life drama.

Kevin T Lacour

unread,
Jun 21, 2001, 8:47:13 AM6/21/01
to
Carl Sundquist wrote:

"Julio, the Gap-Toothed Mexican"

Julio, the Gap-Toothed Mexican
Had a very shiny bike
But when he climbed the mountains
His chain it snapped, he did not like

All of the other cyclists
Wouldn't help him find his teeth
He had to finish the stage
Looking like a total geek

Then one wet and gloomy day
Simoni came to say
Julio with your gap so wide
You can have the win, all right?

Then how the tifosi loved him
They shouted and they sang with glee
Julio, the Gap-Toothed Mexican
You'll go down in history!

Or something like that ...

Regards -
ktl

zeno

unread,
Jun 21, 2001, 11:46:39 AM6/21/01
to
Geez, and Euros say that us ignorant Norte Americanos are naive ....

Jason Waddell

unread,
Jun 21, 2001, 3:45:22 PM6/21/01
to
Kev, you got way too much time on your hands.


Jason Waddell

Kevin LaCour

unread,
Jun 21, 2001, 10:18:19 PM6/21/01
to
On 21 Jun 2001 19:45:22 GMT, jjwb...@aol.com12345 (Jason Waddell)
wrote:

>Kev, you got way too much time on your hands.
>
>
>Jason Waddell

Is that what they call it? Sorry - I'll go wash up.

Regards -
ktl

Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages