Simoni: "Never seen anyone..."

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John Forrest Tomlinson

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May 28, 2006, 6:15:20 PM5/28/06
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From
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2006/giro06/?id=/features/2006/basso_giro_et

"I've never seen anyone dominate [like Basso], never seen any one that
strong! He seems like an extra-terrestrial," Simoni said post-stage,

What about Armstrong I thought? Then I remembered: Simoni was usually
dropped when Armstrong put the hammer down.

JT

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Brian Phillips

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May 28, 2006, 7:44:12 PM5/28/06
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More interesting is his accusation that Basso asked him for money to allow
him to win yesterday's stage:

"He won because he was the strongest and if I had won (in Aprica) it would
have been a gift. But when we were descending (the Mortirolo), he asked me
not to drop him on the descent. Then 5km from Aprica, (Basso) asked me for
money to let me win the stage. I'm not used to asking for charity and I said
no."
Just as Simoni finished his accusations, Basso showed up at the sign-in and
resplendent in his pink tunic, tried to work things out with the bitter,
biting Simoni by extending his hand to shake with Simoni, but the Saunier
Duval man spit out to Basso, "I don't accept your excuses."

The surprised Basso turned to the media and explained, "It's true that I
asked (Simoni) to stay with me on the descent, but the rest is all false."
But Simoni wasn't backing off his allegations that Basso tried to sell him
the stage, saying to Basso with his trademark cold smile "Do you want me to
say how much you asked for?", and then turned his back on Basso and moved
away."

(source: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/may06/may29news )

"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenet...@jt10000.com> wrote in message
news:d58k72le2s7isdmib...@4ax.com...

Tim Lines

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May 28, 2006, 9:48:35 PM5/28/06
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Brian Phillips wrote:
> More interesting is his accusation that Basso asked him for money to allow
> him to win yesterday's stage:
>
> "He won because he was the strongest and if I had won (in Aprica) it would
> have been a gift. But when we were descending (the Mortirolo), he asked me
> not to drop him on the descent. Then 5km from Aprica, (Basso) asked me for
> money to let me win the stage. I'm not used to asking for charity and I said
> no."
> Just as Simoni finished his accusations, Basso showed up at the sign-in and
> resplendent in his pink tunic, tried to work things out with the bitter,
> biting Simoni by extending his hand to shake with Simoni, but the Saunier
> Duval man spit out to Basso, "I don't accept your excuses."
>
> The surprised Basso turned to the media and explained, "It's true that I
> asked (Simoni) to stay with me on the descent, but the rest is all false."
> But Simoni wasn't backing off his allegations that Basso tried to sell him
> the stage, saying to Basso with his trademark cold smile "Do you want me to
> say how much you asked for?", and then turned his back on Basso and moved
> away."
>
> (source: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/may06/may29news )
>

So is it fair to say that Simoni couldn't BUY a stage win at the Giro
this year?

Does anyone find this believable? Given that Simoni is who he is, would
anyone make an offer like this to him? You know he's got the ego to
think he's going to win anyway and that all he's likely to do is behave
like a big Simoni in front of the media. Why would you even try to
negotiate anything with him?

RicodJour

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May 28, 2006, 10:16:26 PM5/28/06
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Tim Lines wrote:
>
> So is it fair to say that Simoni couldn't BUY a stage win at the Giro
> this year?
>
> Does anyone find this believable? Given that Simoni is who he is, would
> anyone make an offer like this to him? You know he's got the ego to
> think he's going to win anyway and that all he's likely to do is behave
> like a big Simoni in front of the media. Why would you even try to
> negotiate anything with him?

The article said that there was to be an investigation. I wonder if
it'll make it into the courts. It'd be quite interesting to discover
that the team radio picked up the conversation so it wouldn't be a case
of one person's word against another's.

R

Charles

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May 28, 2006, 10:58:31 PM5/28/06
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"RicodJour" <rico...@worldemail.com> wrote in message
news:1148868986....@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Whatever. Basso won and Simoni did not finish to HIS expectations. Oh well.


b...@mambo.ucolick.org

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May 29, 2006, 1:40:10 AM5/29/06
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Tim Lines wrote:
> Brian Phillips wrote:
> > More interesting is his accusation that Basso asked him for money to allow
> > him to win yesterday's stage:
> >
> > "He won because he was the strongest and if I had won (in Aprica) it would
> > have been a gift. But when we were descending (the Mortirolo), he asked me
> > not to drop him on the descent. Then 5km from Aprica, (Basso) asked me for
> > money to let me win the stage. I'm not used to asking for charity and I said
> > no."
>
> So is it fair to say that Simoni couldn't BUY a stage win at the Giro
> this year?
>
> Does anyone find this believable? Given that Simoni is who he is, would
> anyone make an offer like this to him? You know he's got the ego to
> think he's going to win anyway and that all he's likely to do is behave
> like a big Simoni in front of the media. Why would you even try to
> negotiate anything with him?

It's not totally believable as Gibo tells it, especially given
Basso's winning-the-stage-for-the-kid thing, but it could
happen. But if true, what the story really shows is that Simoni
is either pissed off that he was too dumb to pay up, or he
doesn't even realize that he was too dumb to pay up,
much less dumb enough to advertise his lack of
clue to the world the next day.

It kind of reminds me of an old anecdote from the 1997
Tour (reported in RBR, from Roussel's book) about
Virenque trying to buy help from Pantani and Olano
but fucking up by offering an insultingly small amount.
>From which the main moral lesson is, as Benjo Maso
said, "Virenque was really too stupid to win a big race."

Ben

Kyle Legate

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May 29, 2006, 2:52:58 AM5/29/06
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Brian Phillips wrote:
>
> "Do you want me to
> say how much you asked for?", and then turned his back on Basso and moved
> away."
>
I do. I'm curious what a Giro mountain stage is going for these days.

Simon Brooke

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May 29, 2006, 3:59:13 AM5/29/06
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in message <WJidnQEVJot...@comcast.com>, Tim Lines
('line...@yahoo.com') wrote:

> Brian Phillips wrote:
>> Just as Simoni finished his accusations, Basso showed up at the
>> sign-in and resplendent in his pink tunic, tried to work things out
>> with the bitter, biting Simoni by extending his hand to shake with
>> Simoni, but the Saunier Duval man spit out to Basso, "I don't accept
>> your excuses."
>>
>> The surprised Basso turned to the media and explained, "It's true that
>> I asked (Simoni) to stay with me on the descent, but the rest is all
>> false." But Simoni wasn't backing off his allegations that Basso tried
>> to sell him the stage, saying to Basso with his trademark cold smile
>> "Do you want me to say how much you asked for?", and then turned his
>> back on Basso and moved away."
>>
>> (source:
>> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/may06/may29news )
>
> So is it fair to say that Simoni couldn't BUY a stage win at the Giro
> this year?
>
> Does anyone find this believable? Given that Simoni is who he is,
> would
> anyone make an offer like this to him? You know he's got the ego to
> think he's going to win anyway and that all he's likely to do is behave
> like a big Simoni in front of the media. Why would you even try to
> negotiate anything with him?

I can't see Basso needing the money. He's going to get massive
sponsorship and endorsement contracts in the next few months. And Basso
and Simoni were reputed to be good friends. So the idea that Basso, at
the height of his ascendency, would be asking Simoni, in the dog-days of
his career, for money for a win just doesn't seem likely to me. If true,
it would be an extremely mean and spiteful thing to do, and whatever
else Basso is he doesn't seem either of those.

See it from Simoni's side, though. He's an old champion making way for a
new. That's got to be painful. And he hadn't won a single stage in this
years Giro, and Aprica was his very last chance - Milan was bound to be
a sprinter's stage. And, to rub salt into it, Basso had certainly gifted
Simoni's domestique Piepoli one stage, and arguably gifted him another.

--
si...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Perl ... is the Brittney Spears of programming - easily accessible
;; but, in the final analysis, empty of any significant thought
;; Frank Adrian on Slashdot, 21st July 2003

Jonathan v.d. Sluis

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May 29, 2006, 4:49:58 AM5/29/06
to
Tim Lines <line...@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:WJidnQEVJot...@comcast.com:

> Brian Phillips wrote:
>> More interesting is his accusation that Basso asked him for money to
>> allow him to win yesterday's stage:
>>
>> "He won because he was the strongest and if I had won (in Aprica) it
>> would have been a gift. But when we were descending (the Mortirolo),
>> he asked me not to drop him on the descent. Then 5km from Aprica,
>> (Basso) asked me for money to let me win the stage. I'm not used to
>> asking for charity and I said no."
>> Just as Simoni finished his accusations, Basso showed up at the
>> sign-in and resplendent in his pink tunic, tried to work things out
>> with the bitter, biting Simoni by extending his hand to shake with
>> Simoni, but the Saunier Duval man spit out to Basso, "I don't accept
>> your excuses."
>>
>> The surprised Basso turned to the media and explained, "It's true
>> that I asked (Simoni) to stay with me on the descent, but the rest is
>> all false." But Simoni wasn't backing off his allegations that Basso
>> tried to sell him the stage, saying to Basso with his trademark cold
>> smile "Do you want me to say how much you asked for?", and then
>> turned his back on Basso and moved away."
>>
>> (source:
>> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/may06/may29news )
>>
>
> So is it fair to say that Simoni couldn't BUY a stage win at the Giro
> this year?
>
> Does anyone find this believable?

Yes, it's perfectly believable. Victories are often bought and sold.
There's no reason to think that Basso is above that and it's also
believable that Simoni would try to capitalize on such an offer. I don't
see the problem; it seems fairly obvious what happened.

> Given that Simoni is who he is,
> would anyone make an offer like this to him?

Sure, why not? Simoni is not a poor man, that's all one really needs to
know about his identity to make such an offer.

> You know he's got the
> ego to think he's going to win anyway and that all he's likely to do
> is behave like a big Simoni in front of the media. Why would you even
> try to negotiate anything with him?

Simoni has probably bartered about stages before, but he didn't talk
about it afterward. Basso must have figured he wouldn't do it this time
either, which is fairly logical given the usual way of handling things
in the peloton. Simoni should have stuck to the rules and kept his mouth
shut. This incident probably won't be beneficial for him in the future.

trg

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May 29, 2006, 6:48:19 AM5/29/06
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"Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <nos...@nospam.nl> a écrit dans le message de news:
Xns97D26E3954A...@62.58.50.216...

No, I don't believe it, either. It was clear that Basso and CSC intended to
win the stage from the start. If not, CSC wouldn't have worked all day and
Basso would have just stayed in Gutierrez's wheel all day. You don't go
through all that just to sell the stage at the end, especially if you don't
need the money.

Also, Gibo talked about not accepting charity. But supposedly Basso wasn't
offerening charity, he was proposing a business transaction.


billb

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May 29, 2006, 8:37:25 AM5/29/06
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Promised to pay,
But got dropped anyway.

He's a bitter little man who will appear even shorter when he's off the
bike for good.

Best,
Bill

Robert Chung

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May 29, 2006, 9:26:30 AM5/29/06
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b...@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:

> It kind of reminds me of an old anecdote from the 1997
> Tour (reported in RBR, from Roussel's book) about
> Virenque trying to buy help from Pantani and Olano
> but fucking up by offering an insultingly small amount.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/7bd6331c87251573

> From which the main moral lesson is, as Benjo Maso
> said, "Virenque was really too stupid to win a big race."

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/ec954a41c230e4a5


Keith

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May 29, 2006, 9:53:20 AM5/29/06
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On Mon, 29 May 2006 06:26:30 -0700, "Robert Chung"
<m...@address.invalid> wrote:

>b...@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
>
>> It kind of reminds me of an old anecdote from the 1997
>> Tour (reported in RBR, from Roussel's book) about
>> Virenque trying to buy help from Pantani and Olano
>> but fucking up by offering an insultingly small amount.
>
>http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/7bd6331c87251573

Thanks, yes, Pantani needed more money for his little morning sniffy I
guess...

Tuschinski

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May 29, 2006, 9:55:23 AM5/29/06
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1300$? Virenque was completely and utterly out of his mind....

Gunsberg

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May 29, 2006, 10:41:08 AM5/29/06
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Simoni is a thoroughly unpleasant character. Basso was a fool to engage
him during the stage. To me, the very fact that Basso did ask Simoni to
rein in his speed on the descent is enough to cause me to consider
Basso's stage win to be tainted.

I never liked Armstrong's "gifts", and I don't like Basso's request
for a favor. Once Basso asked Simoni to stay with him, it seems to me
that it is reasonable for Simoni to expect to be gifted the stage
victory. If Basso wanted to win the stage, he should not have asked
Simoni for any accomodations.

It is interesting that Armstrong's gift of the Ventoux stage (to a
Pantani who was on the butt end of career ) only ended up riling a
wounded Pantani--causing him to spew bile
back at LA. Armstrong deserved the treatment: It is one thing to give a
stage to a teammate or friend or ally, and it is quite another to give
a gift to a [bitter] rival.

Just curious: In 1997, what would have been an appropriate sum for
Virenque to offer, for the help that he desired?


Simoni has never been gracious in defeat, and he has found it
difficult to accept that the sport has passed him by, and that he is
now just a "character actor" in Cycling.

Gunsberg

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May 29, 2006, 10:54:35 AM5/29/06
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Actually, it is beginning to look like Simoni COULD have bought a stage
win at the Giro, lamentable though that may be. It is likely that
Simoni could have well afforded to buy the stage win from Basso. For
all we know, his team would have reimbursed him for the "business
expense". However, buy a victory does little to assuage one's ego.
Apparantly, there is a chasm of misunderstanding between Basso and
Simoni, regarding Simoni's cycling abilities as of 2006....

Gunsberg

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May 29, 2006, 11:03:46 AM5/29/06
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Simoni is pissed off because he won't be a 5-time winner of il Giro.
Indeed, Simoni won't ever win another Grand Tour. Simoni was probably
blindsided by reality when he was dropped on the ascent, and felt the
subconscious psychological need to project the blame for his
disappointing result onto his major rival.

IF Basso did offer the stage win...for a price...would it have really
made sense for Simoni to accede to the shake-down, and pony up the
bribe money?? After all, the narrative would have read that Basso had
given the stage to Simoni, NOT that Simoni had earned the stage win by
beating Basso man to man. Such a tainted win couldn't have been worth
much money...

Indeed, if Basso had made the gesture of giving the stage to Simoni
(even for Free), Basso still would have benefited, as he would have
burnished his image as Padrone of the Peloton.

Gunsberg

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May 29, 2006, 11:09:49 AM5/29/06
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I can't see Basso needing the money. He's going to get massive
sponsorship and endorsement contracts in the next few months. And Basso

and Simoni were reputed to be good friends. So the idea that Basso, at
the height of his ascendency, would be asking Simoni, in the dog-days
of
his career, for money for a win just doesn't seem likely to me. If
true,
it would be an extremely mean and spiteful thing to do, and whatever
else Basso is he doesn't seem either of those.

==============================

It might not have been about the money (even assuming that Simoni's
accusations are substancially correct). Simoni may have been doing some
trash talking. He certainly has a reputation for being unpleasant. He
could have struck a nerve, causing Basso to be spiteful. At this stage,
I suspect that Basso has a rather healthy sized ego, and when one
becomes a champion, and the pre-eminant cyclist in the world, that can
affect one's personality.

Gunsberg

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May 29, 2006, 11:13:47 AM5/29/06
to
Simoni has probably bartered about stages before, but he didn't talk
about it afterward. Basso must have figured he wouldn't do it this time

either, which is fairly logical given the usual way of handling things
in the peloton. Simoni should have stuck to the rules and kept his
mouth
shut. This incident probably won't be beneficial for him in the future.

==========================================

What future? He's not long from retirement, given his age and his form.
Basso can't do anything to Simoni more than the ravages of Mother
Nature and Father Time .

Toast

Donald Munro

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May 29, 2006, 11:23:11 AM5/29/06
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Gunsberg wrote:
> What future? He's not long from retirement, given his age and his form.
> Basso can't do anything to Simoni more than the ravages of Mother
> Nature and Father Time .

You really are in poor form when you're 3rd in grand tour.

Jonathan v.d. Sluis

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May 29, 2006, 11:25:18 AM5/29/06
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"Gunsberg" <guns...@kasparovchess.com> wrote in
news:1148915627....@38g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

Simoni can do one more season at least, don't you think? In spite of not
winning it, he has had a good giro.

Tuschinski

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May 29, 2006, 12:27:29 PM5/29/06
to

> It might not have been about the money (even assuming that Simoni's
> accusations are substancially correct). Simoni may have been doing some
> trash talking. He certainly has a reputation for being unpleasant. He
> could have struck a nerve, causing Basso to be spiteful.

My thoughts exactly... he just wanted to piss off Simoni... and I guess
Simoni had it coming.

Tuschinski

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May 29, 2006, 12:42:19 PM5/29/06
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> Once Basso asked Simoni to stay with him, it seems to me
> that it is reasonable for Simoni to expect to be gifted the stage
> victory.

Normal Etiquette agrees^^ hence Simoni's "gentleman blah blah"

> If Basso wanted to win the stage, he should not have asked
> Simoni for any accomodations.
>

Or he REALLY wanted to mind-pogo Simoni

> Just curious: In 1997, what would have been an appropriate sum for
> Virenque to offer, for the help that he desired?
>

Poohhh... Complicated, but let's do a wild guess:)

Knetemann offered Moser about 50.000$ for the Worldchampion title and
thats in 1978 -might be including the fee for the dutch team-. That was
an extraordinary amount at that time (he and his wife were fretting if
it wouldn't bankrupt them) but it was totally worth it.

Now we must realize that unlike Knetemann-Moser Virenque didn't buy a
guaranteed TdF win, instead he just bought some "super-domestiques"

On the other hand a TdF is worth millions, so you reap a lot when it
works.

Also, was the team prepared to pony up (I would be surprised if they
won't)?

A wild guess? At least in the 10K$ range for their help that day. He
allready could afford it and you don't get these chances often.

I can imagine that his director was really pissed about it....

>
> Simoni has never been gracious in defeat, and he has found it
> difficult to accept that the sport has passed him by, and that he is
> now just a "character actor" in Cycling.
>

Simoni is a bit more than that. He finished 3rd in the Giro, that's a
bit more than being an also-ran.

trg

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May 29, 2006, 1:01:39 PM5/29/06
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"Gunsberg" <guns...@kasparovchess.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
1148915026....@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

> Simoni is pissed off because he won't be a 5-time winner of il Giro.
> Indeed, Simoni won't ever win another Grand Tour. Simoni was probably
> blindsided by reality when he was dropped on the ascent, and felt the
> subconscious psychological need to project the blame for his
> disappointing result onto his major rival.
>
> IF Basso did offer the stage win...for a price...would it have really
> made sense for Simoni to accede to the shake-down, and pony up the
> bribe money?? After all, the narrative would have read that Basso had
> given the stage to Simoni, NOT that Simoni had earned the stage win by
> beating Basso man to man. Such a tainted win couldn't have been worth
> much money...

No, had a deal been made, Simoni would have beaten Basso in a sprint. Which
in itself would have raised no questions since everyone would expect that
result. Why Basso would have let it come down to a sprint when Simoni is
clearly the faster sprinter might have raised some questions, but the duo
could than have said that the deal was if Simoni waited for Basso on the
descent, then Basso would agree to settle it at the line like gentlemen.


trg

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May 29, 2006, 1:11:30 PM5/29/06
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"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenet...@jt10000.com> a écrit dans le message
de news: d58k72le2s7isdmib...@4ax.com...

> From
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2006/giro06/?id=/features/2006/basso_giro_et
>
> "I've never seen anyone dominate [like Basso], never seen any one that
> strong! He seems like an extra-terrestrial," Simoni said post-stage,
>
> What about Armstrong I thought? Then I remembered: Simoni was usually
> dropped when Armstrong put the hammer down.
>
> JT
>

My guess is that Basso asked Simoni to take it easy on the descent.

Simoni took this to mean either "and I'll gift you the stage", or "and we'll
ride together to the finish and then sprint for it."

Basso probably meant it as "I'm the patron and I don't want to take any
risks. You couldn't pick up enough time to get to the finish before I
caught you on the15 kim faux plat, and there's less risk being caught from
behind if we ride towards Aprica together than with me chasing you and then
you chasing me."

Simoni was pissed off when he thought Basso had gone against his "implicit"
word. And Simoni did what Simoni does, talked some trash.

Jenko

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May 29, 2006, 1:46:51 PM5/29/06
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Tuschinski wrote:
>
> Knetemann offered Moser about 50.000$ for the Worldchampion title and
> thats in 1978 -might be including the fee for the dutch team-. That was
> an extraordinary amount at that time (he and his wife were fretting if
> it wouldn't bankrupt them) but it was totally worth it.

Yeah, Knetemann probably lost about 50.000$ that day, but did he offer them?
http://groups.google.es/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/4e6f975c6ae3d293

Jenko

Tim Lines

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May 29, 2006, 2:15:39 PM5/29/06
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b...@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
> Tim Lines wrote:
>
>>Brian Phillips wrote:
>>
>>>More interesting is his accusation that Basso asked him for money to allow
>>>him to win yesterday's stage:
>>>
>>>"He won because he was the strongest and if I had won (in Aprica) it would
>>>have been a gift. But when we were descending (the Mortirolo), he asked me
>>>not to drop him on the descent. Then 5km from Aprica, (Basso) asked me for
>>>money to let me win the stage. I'm not used to asking for charity and I said
>>>no."
>>
>>So is it fair to say that Simoni couldn't BUY a stage win at the Giro
>>this year?
>>
>>Does anyone find this believable? Given that Simoni is who he is, would
>>anyone make an offer like this to him? You know he's got the ego to
>>think he's going to win anyway and that all he's likely to do is behave
>>like a big Simoni in front of the media. Why would you even try to
>>negotiate anything with him?
>
>
> It's not totally believable as Gibo tells it, especially given
> Basso's winning-the-stage-for-the-kid thing, but it could
> happen. But if true, what the story really shows is that Simoni
> is either pissed off that he was too dumb to pay up, or he
> doesn't even realize that he was too dumb to pay up,
> much less dumb enough to advertise his lack of
> clue to the world the next day.

Yeah, something like that. That evil Basshole wasn't willing to gift
Simonoi the stage, he wanted Simoni to PAY for it. Simoni had too much
pride for that so instead he got dropped.

Which makes Simoni look good because ________?

>
> It kind of reminds me of an old anecdote from the 1997
> Tour (reported in RBR, from Roussel's book) about
> Virenque trying to buy help from Pantani and Olano
> but fucking up by offering an insultingly small amount.
>>From which the main moral lesson is, as Benjo Maso
> said, "Virenque was really too stupid to win a big race."
>

In contrast, Basso paid nothing and got help on the descent anyway. He's
a GENIUS!

Howard Kveck

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May 29, 2006, 3:09:30 PM5/29/06
to
In article <H4CdnRmQEbXQp-bZ...@comcast.com>,
Tim Lines <SP...@SPAM.com> wrote:

> In contrast, Basso paid nothing and got help on the descent anyway. He's
> a GENIUS!

So the free market economy really does work.

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Donald Munro

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May 29, 2006, 3:17:08 PM5/29/06
to
Tim Lines wrote:
> In contrast, Basso paid nothing and got help on the descent anyway. He's
> a GENIUS!

You mean genus ?

benjo maso

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May 29, 2006, 4:10:29 PM5/29/06
to

"Jenko" <sally...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e5fc2i$973$1...@nsnmpen3-gest.nuria.telefonica-data.net...


".. . a few miles from the finish Francesco Moser and Gerrie Knetemann were
in front together. Moser, the reigning champion and always very generous,
offered Knetemann an enormous sum. Knetemann said yes, but forgot it when he
saw the finish and became worldchampion. When the other riders heard about
it, they were all incensed. At Knetemann, of course".
Yes, they were pretty mad, above all the other favorites like Hinault, De
Vlamynck, etc. But why? Because Knetemann did break his word? Not at all,
they were angry because Moser had promised them a lot of money if he became
world champion, and now they didn't get a cent.... Isn't bicycle racing a
beautiful sport?

Benjo


Tuschinski

unread,
May 29, 2006, 4:36:24 PM5/29/06
to

benjo maso wrote:
> "Jenko" <sally...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
> Benjo

Benjo, first off, you know so much more about it than I do:) But in the
latest biography Knetemanns wife said that she and Gerrie worried about
coughing up the 100.000 guilders? Now I have that as a quote, so please
correct me:)

benjo maso

unread,
May 29, 2006, 5:56:38 PM5/29/06
to

"Tuschinski" <lok...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1148934984.8...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...


I haven't read Knetemann's biography, but the story that Moser offered a
huge sum and Knetemann accepted has been told me several times. even by
ex-pro's. It was at least Moser's version. Of course, Knetemann has always
denied that Moser and he even discussed money, and only Moser and he knew
exactly what they said to each other. That they have talked is certain and
could be seen on TV. Immediately after the race Knetemann said that they had
agreed that Knetemann would lead in the climbs and Moser in the descents
(not very likely, of course). That Knetemann offered money might be
possible, but that Moser accepted is not very plausible. Moser was by far
the best paid rider of his generation and was famous for buying races.
What's more, both were sprinting with all strenght (if they were not, they
must have been the best actors of the 20th century - they weren't even
looking at each other). On the other hand, it might be quite possible that
they had agreed that the winner would pay the other a huge sum (after all,
that's the usual routine) and that Moser was not telling the truth. Who
knows?

Benjo


Tim Lines

unread,
May 29, 2006, 6:34:56 PM5/29/06
to

Close. Simoni says Basso is a different species.

Tim Lines

unread,
May 29, 2006, 6:39:02 PM5/29/06
to
trg wrote:

> Also, Gibo talked about not accepting charity. But supposedly Basso wasn't
> offerening charity, he was proposing a business transaction.

Yeah, that's just one of the curious things that leads me to question
the story Simoni told.

Tuschinski

unread,
May 29, 2006, 6:55:47 PM5/29/06
to
> On the other hand, it might be quite possible that
> they had agreed that the winner would pay the other a huge sum (after all,
> that's the usual routine) and that Moser was not telling the truth. Who
> knows?
>
> Benjo

That crossed my mind, it is usual that in these cases in a sprint a
deux the looser gets cash (so both will put all effort in the escape)

Keith

unread,
May 29, 2006, 7:18:33 PM5/29/06
to

Yes, what a ridiculous statement, based on that, you'd think Simoni
was about to kick the bucket !

Gunsberg

unread,
May 30, 2006, 3:57:42 AM5/30/06
to

A distant 3rd...And the next Giro is, well, about a year away. Given
the career vectors of younger, up and coming cyclists, Simoni will have
scant chances to make it to the podium at any more Grand Tours, let
alone win one of them. He can keep racing as a team leader for another
couple of years, but his 3rd Place finish was his last hurrah.

Donald Munro

unread,
May 30, 2006, 4:13:41 AM5/30/06
to
Gunsberg wrote:
>> > What future? He's not long from retirement, given his age and his form.
>> > Basso can't do anything to Simoni more than the ravages of Mother
>> > Nature and Father Time .

Donald Munro wrote:
>> You really are in poor form when you're 3rd in grand tour.

Gunsberg wrote:
> A distant 3rd...And the next Giro is, well, about a year away. Given
> the career vectors of younger, up and coming cyclists, Simoni will have
> scant chances to make it to the podium at any more Grand Tours, let
> alone win one of them. He can keep racing as a team leader for another
> couple of years, but his 3rd Place finish was his last hurrah.

Well he did finish ahead of the 'up and coming' Cunego.

Even when he was younger he never was good enough at the TT to make an
ideal GC contender. However he did get a lot of exposure for his sponsors
in this giro and if he changed his focus to the KOM in the TDF like
Virenque did he could still have some moments of glory.

Jonathan v.d. Sluis

unread,
May 30, 2006, 6:37:55 AM5/30/06
to
Tim Lines <SP...@SPAM.com> wrote in
news:KYudnQdQJoub5ebZ...@comcast.com:

Wow, you sure found a huge gap in Simoni's story there. Next time he is
going to come up with such an incredibly far-fetched tale (riders buying
and selling races - impossible!) he'll be sure to get his definitions
right.

trg

unread,
May 30, 2006, 10:01:40 AM5/30/06
to

"Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <nos...@nospam.nl> a écrit dans le message de news:
Xns97D38087CE8...@62.58.50.216...

It doesn't make sense. If Basso had offered to sell the stage at 5km and
Simoni had said no, as his story goes, then he shouldn't have been surprised
when at 4k Basso rode away from him. He should have been expecting that
Basso would be going for the win and not let him get a gap if he could stop
it.

What is he pissed at? That Basso didn't outright give him the stage (he who
doesn't take charity, and in fact hasn't claimed that Basso promised him the
win, only that he said to take it easy on the descent). That Basso tried to
sell him the stage ? So, he said no and they battle it out for the win as
I'm sure has happened hundreds of times before).

If the supposed bribe request was what he was really mad at, he would have
brought it up right after the stage, instead of the next morning.

Come on, even Simoni's own manager seems to think it's just Gibo doing what
Gibo is wont to do, talking trash-

De son côté, le manager de Gilberto Simoni, Mauro Gianetti, s'est empressé
de calmer le jeu. "Tout ça ne mérite pas de polémiquer, c'est dans le
caractère de Gilberto. Il a fait un très beau Giro et a été un digne
adversaire de Basso."

And other Italian cycling experts are also critical of Simoni
(http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/may06/may30news)-

Italian cycling figures have generally been unimpressed with Simoni's
allegation. Mario Cipollini, the former sprinter who holds the record for
the most number of Giro wins, said, "this sort of thing has always stayed
within the riders' pack. They should have sorted it out over a bottle of
good wine."

Vittorio Adorni, who won the Giro in 1965 and now works for the UCI, said,
"Simoni behaved like a little kid. The informal rule, 'today's my turn and
tomorrow yours', has always existed."

Italian Cycling Federation chairman Alcide Cerato accused Simoni of being,
"a bad loser."

"It's not the first time he's lashed out at people who've beat him," Cerato
added, referring to Simoni's attitude toward then-team-mate Damiano Cunego
when Cunego won the 2004 Giro.

Former Fassa Bortolo manager Giancarlo Ferretti, who has been team manager
for both riders, said, "both riders are well off and its normally the
richest who are tempted to do things like that."


Jonathan v.d. Sluis

unread,
May 30, 2006, 11:02:00 AM5/30/06
to
"trg" <t...@world.REMOVETHIS.std.com> wrote in
news:e5hj92$tfq$1...@s1.news.oleane.net:

>
> "Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <nos...@nospam.nl> a écrit dans le message de
> news: Xns97D38087CE8...@62.58.50.216...
>> Tim Lines <SP...@SPAM.com> wrote in
>> news:KYudnQdQJoub5ebZ...@comcast.com:
>>
>>> trg wrote:
>>>
>>>> Also, Gibo talked about not accepting charity. But supposedly Basso
>>>> wasn't offerening charity, he was proposing a business transaction.
>>>
>>> Yeah, that's just one of the curious things that leads me to
>>> question the story Simoni told.
>>>
>>
>> Wow, you sure found a huge gap in Simoni's story there. Next time he
>> is going to come up with such an incredibly far-fetched tale (riders
>> buying and selling races - impossible!) he'll be sure to get his
>> definitions right.
>
> It doesn't make sense.

It makes perfect sense - Basso offered Simoni to stay with himand give
the stage to Simoni in the sprint, Simoni refuses, so Basso leaves him.
Simoni is confused because he thought Basso wouldn't ride away from him
after he waited. He is also angry because he lost, so he decides to to
tell everyone about Basso's offer.

It's also possible that Simoni didn't refuse, or at least not very
explicitly.

Exactly. Cipollini says something quite revealing here: Simoni didn't
lie, he just made public what should have stayed confidential. It's not
that astonishing if Basso asked for money, it has happened before, why
is Simoni making a big deal of it this time?

Simon Brooke

unread,
May 30, 2006, 11:57:37 AM5/30/06
to
in message <Xns97D3AD4DEE1...@62.58.50.216>, Jonathan v.d.

Sluis ('nos...@nospam.nl') wrote:

>> Italian cycling figures have generally been unimpressed with Simoni's
>> allegation. Mario Cipollini, the former sprinter who holds the record
>> for the most number of Giro wins, said, "this sort of thing has always
>> stayed within the riders' pack. They should have sorted it out over a
>> bottle of good wine."
>
> Exactly. Cipollini says something quite revealing here: Simoni didn't
> lie, he just made public what should have stayed confidential. It's not
> that astonishing if Basso asked for money, it has happened before, why
> is Simoni making a big deal of it this time?

What do you think, at a guess, Basso will make personally out of his win
of this year's Giro (which by that time was pretty much assured)? Do you
really think that Basso was prepared to put his reputation - and
consequently his earning power - at risk for such a comparatively small
sum, especially given Simoni's reputation for tight-lipped discretion?

He didn't need the money, if caught stood to lose a huge sum, and was
dealing with a known blabbermouth. Consequently, he's either one of the
stupidest people in history, or it's purest fabrication. I think it's
purist fabrication.

Disclosure: I now have a kitten named Ivan
http://www.jasmine.org.uk/dogfood/story/article_50.html

--
si...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; I put the 'sexy' in 'dyslexia'

Donald Munro

unread,
May 30, 2006, 12:19:41 PM5/30/06
to
Simon Brooke wrote:
> Disclosure: I now have a kitten named Ivan

You're going to have to work on another excuse before your next test; the
pet excuse is already taken.


trg

unread,
May 30, 2006, 1:15:45 PM5/30/06
to

"Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <nos...@nospam.nl> a écrit dans le message de news:
Xns97D3AD4DEE1...@62.58.50.216...

> "trg" <t...@world.REMOVETHIS.std.com> wrote in
> news:e5hj92$tfq$1...@s1.news.oleane.net:
>
>>
>> "Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <nos...@nospam.nl> a écrit dans le message de
>> news: Xns97D38087CE8...@62.58.50.216...
>>> Tim Lines <SP...@SPAM.com> wrote in
>>> news:KYudnQdQJoub5ebZ...@comcast.com:
>>>
>>>> trg wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Also, Gibo talked about not accepting charity. But supposedly Basso
>>>>> wasn't offerening charity, he was proposing a business transaction.
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, that's just one of the curious things that leads me to
>>>> question the story Simoni told.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Wow, you sure found a huge gap in Simoni's story there. Next time he
>>> is going to come up with such an incredibly far-fetched tale (riders
>>> buying and selling races - impossible!) he'll be sure to get his
>>> definitions right.
>>
>> It doesn't make sense.
>
> It makes perfect sense - Basso offered Simoni to stay with himand give
> the stage to Simoni in the sprint, Simoni refuses, so Basso leaves him.
> Simoni is confused because he thought Basso wouldn't ride away from him
> after he waited. He is also angry because he lost, so he decides to to
> tell everyone about Basso's offer.

If as you said, Basso offered to give the stage to Simoni if he took the
descent easy, and Gibo ("I don't take charity") Simoni refused, then Simoni
wouldn't have waited for Basso on the descent.

And if Simoni refused the gifted stage on the Mortirolo, then it makes no
sense that Basso would later try to SELL it to him. If someone doesn't take
something for free, they sure as hell aren't going to take it if they have
to pay for it.

>> Italian cycling figures have generally been unimpressed with Simoni's
>> allegation. Mario Cipollini, the former sprinter who holds the record
>> for the most number of Giro wins, said, "this sort of thing has always
>> stayed within the riders' pack. They should have sorted it out over a
>> bottle of good wine."
>
> Exactly. Cipollini says something quite revealing here: Simoni didn't
> lie, he just made public what should have stayed confidential. It's not
> that astonishing if Basso asked for money, it has happened before, why
> is Simoni making a big deal of it this time?

No you're reading meaning into Cippo's words tthat isn't there. He says
nothing about what might have happened and who was telling the truth. All
Cippolini said is that disputes between cyclists should be settled between
them, out of the public eye. It could equally be interpreted that he meant
that just because Gibo was pissed of because Basso didn't gift or offer to
sell him the stage, doesn't mean that Simoni should trash him in public. if
he has a problem with Basso, he needs to settle it directly with Basso, and
not shoutstuff to the nearest moicrophone, (like he has a habit of doing).


Tim Lines

unread,
May 30, 2006, 1:49:43 PM5/30/06
to
Gunsberg wrote:
> Simoni is pissed off because he won't be a 5-time winner of il Giro.
> Indeed, Simoni won't ever win another Grand Tour. Simoni was probably
> blindsided by reality when he was dropped on the ascent, and felt the
> subconscious psychological need to project the blame for his
> disappointing result onto his major rival.

That sounds plausible.

Bob Schwartz

unread,
May 30, 2006, 2:04:31 PM5/30/06
to
Simon Brooke wrote:
> What do you think, at a guess, Basso will make personally out of his win
> of this year's Giro (which by that time was pretty much assured)? Do you
> really think that Basso was prepared to put his reputation - and
> consequently his earning power - at risk for such a comparatively small
> sum, especially given Simoni's reputation for tight-lipped discretion?
>
> He didn't need the money, if caught stood to lose a huge sum, and was
> dealing with a known blabbermouth. Consequently, he's either one of the
> stupidest people in history, or it's purest fabrication. I think it's
> purist fabrication.

His reputation was not at risk. Simoni's reputation is at
risk, a nation of cycling fanatics thinks he's a dumbass.
He needed a win badly, an offer was made by someone that
had been kicking his ass over and over, and he didn't take
it or even try to negotiate. Simoni's as dumb as a post!

Bob Schwartz

William Asher

unread,
May 30, 2006, 2:47:45 PM5/30/06
to
Bob Schwartz wrote:

Does Basso have a reputation as being a wise-ass? If he does and he didn't
really like Simoni and wanted to rub it in a little, I can easily see him
tweaking Simoni to completely piss him off, mostly in jest because he knows
Simoni would never pay him, by saying: "Hey Gibo, how much will you pay me
to lose like I did to Piepoli? For the right price, I'll even make it look
credible." I mean, at that point Basso knows he's going to win the Giro
and was likely feeling incredibly frisky (his blood was probably 60% RBC,
10% adrenaline, and 10% endorphins, and 20% saline) so he might have
decided to tease Simoni only Simoni was in no mood for such a lighthearted
jest.

It may not be gym class, but that doesn't stop men from acting like
adolescents.

--
Bill Asher

Jonathan v.d. Sluis

unread,
May 30, 2006, 3:12:32 PM5/30/06
to
"trg" <t...@world.REMOVETHIS.std.com> wrote in
news:e5hul9$485$1...@s1.news.oleane.net:

It's easy for Simoni to say he doesn't take charity after he lost the
stage anyway.

>
> And if Simoni refused the gifted stage on the Mortirolo, then it makes
> no sense that Basso would later try to SELL it to him. If someone
> doesn't take something for free, they sure as hell aren't going to
> take it if they have to pay for it.

When did Basso offer the stage for free? Did Simoni say it was offered
like that?

>
>>> Italian cycling figures have generally been unimpressed with
>>> Simoni's allegation. Mario Cipollini, the former sprinter who holds
>>> the record for the most number of Giro wins, said, "this sort of
>>> thing has always stayed within the riders' pack. They should have
>>> sorted it out over a bottle of good wine."
>>
>> Exactly. Cipollini says something quite revealing here: Simoni didn't
>> lie, he just made public what should have stayed confidential. It's
>> not that astonishing if Basso asked for money, it has happened
>> before, why is Simoni making a big deal of it this time?
>
> No you're reading meaning into Cippo's words tthat isn't there.

Either he says Simoni is lying or he isn't. Perhaps you can come up with
some better quote to prove your point?

> He
> says nothing about what might have happened and who was telling the
> truth. All Cippolini said is that disputes between cyclists should be
> settled between them, out of the public eye.

*That* wouldn't make sense at all. Do you think Cipollini seriously
suggests that Simoni go to Basso and say: "Hey you offered to sell the
stage and that pissed me off," after which Basso would answer "You
liar!". There is no point in talking about such bartering 'out of the
public eye' if the barteringh didn't happen at all.

> It could equally be
> interpreted that he meant that just because Gibo was pissed of because
> Basso didn't gift or offer to sell him the stage, doesn't mean that
> Simoni should trash him in public. if he has a problem with Basso, he
> needs to settle it directly with Basso, and not shoutstuff to the
> nearest moicrophone, (like he has a habit of doing).

Well, that's obviously what Cipollini says, although I doubt he's very
concerned with the psychological welfare of either men, or with their
attitudes towards one another. Cipollini is just saying: don't bother
the rest of us with the dirty details, thank you. And I fully agree with
him. Post-race bitching about money and selling stages is the last thing
I want to hear after a so-so stage race.

Simon Brooke

unread,
May 30, 2006, 5:39:38 PM5/30/06
to
in message <PO%eg.36169$4L1....@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com>, Bob

Schwartz ('bob.sc...@REMOVEsbcglobal.net') wrote:

> Simoni's as dumb as a post!

Yes, but whose post? One of yours or one of mine?

;; Skill without imagination is craftsmanship and gives us
;; many useful objects such as wickerwork picnic baskets.
;; Imagination without skill gives us modern art.
;; Tom Stoppard, Artist Descending A Staircase

Bret

unread,
May 30, 2006, 6:08:40 PM5/30/06
to

Jonathan v.d. Sluis wrote:

> Well, that's obviously what Cipollini says, although I doubt he's very
> concerned with the psychological welfare of either men, or with their
> attitudes towards one another. Cipollini is just saying: don't bother
> the rest of us with the dirty details, thank you. And I fully agree with
> him. Post-race bitching about money and selling stages is the last thing
> I want to hear after a so-so stage race.

Consider the possibility that this little spat is contrived to increase
media interest, maybe even with willing participation of Basso. The
Italians love it when their top riders feud, so why not give them what
they want? I've always liked Simoni as a rider, so I like to think
there's some method to his madness. I'm only half convinced myself.

Bret

Tim Lines

unread,
May 30, 2006, 7:58:51 PM5/30/06
to

I don't know what or who you think you're arguing with. You've entered
other messages suggesting that you believe there are gaps that need to
be filled in with speculation in order for the story to make sense. You
say things like this:

> It makes perfect sense - Basso offered Simoni to stay with himand give
> the stage to Simoni in the sprint, Simoni refuses, so Basso leaves him.
> Simoni is confused because he thought Basso wouldn't ride away from him
> after he waited. He is also angry because he lost, so he decides to to
> tell everyone about Basso's offer.
>

> It's also possible that Simoni didn't refuse, or at least not very
> explicitly.

The difference between us is that I haven't settled on any of these
stories and decided to label it "truth" yet. I do reserve that right,
however.

Michael Press

unread,
May 30, 2006, 9:17:45 PM5/30/06
to
In article <Xns97D37801A...@130.133.1.4>,
William Asher <gcn...@yahoo.com> wrote:

This is the image that I have adopted.

> It may not be gym class, but that doesn't stop men from acting like
> adolescents.

Always the implication that we are supposed to out-grow
adolescence. Maybe we aren't. It's easier to respond to
and manipulate adolescent behavior. Look at the trouble
caused by thinkers.

--
Michael Press

Michael Press

unread,
May 30, 2006, 9:18:15 PM5/30/06
to
In article
<qlquk3-...@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk>,
Simon Brooke <si...@jasmine.org.uk> wrote:

> in message <PO%eg.36169$4L1....@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com>, Bob
> Schwartz ('bob.sc...@REMOVEsbcglobal.net') wrote:
>
> > Simoni's as dumb as a post!
>
> Yes, but whose post? One of yours or one of mine?

OTM!

--
Michael Press

Gabe Brovedani

unread,
May 30, 2006, 10:35:52 PM5/30/06
to
Bret wrote:
>
> Consider the possibility that this little spat is contrived to increase
> media interest, maybe even with willing participation of Basso. The
> Italians love it when their top riders feud, so why not give them what
> they want? I've always liked Simoni as a rider, so I like to think
> there's some method to his madness. I'm only half convinced myself.
>
> Bret
>

At the end of the race during the post race show, they managed to drag
Simoni and Basso on stage. After the show while the cameras were
showing the awards, the microphones on stage were still on and someone -
it sounded like Basso - says, "Gibo, fammi una dedica" (give me a
dedication). Either it wasn't Basso, Basso likes to fuck with Gibo, or
Basso and Simoni aren't really that pissed off, they got lots of press
coverage and Basso wanted his little baby boy pink jersey signed.

By the way, at 5 km to go Basso rides up to Simoni and they talk about
something. Did Riis tell Basso to go mess with Simoni? Riis kept
commenting on RAI that Basso needs to be tougher and not so nice.

In all this mess, poor ol' Buffalo Gutierrez gets no coverage. After
all, he should be the hero to all masters fatties, dragging his 78 kilos
up the friggen Mortirolo and losing only a minute to Basso and Simoni.
That's why this whole controversy was started - to keep the media on
the Italians.

I only wish they could have put the mike on Gutierrez so we could all
have heard his huffing and puffing.

Gabe Brovedani

Bret

unread,
May 31, 2006, 12:35:09 AM5/31/06
to

Simoni was consistently at the front of the race in a very difficult
final week of the Giro. Basso himself said that Simoni was his main
challenger. Who are we to believe? What besides winning would have
impressed you?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/giro06/index.php?id=/photos/2006/giro06/giro0619/fs-016

Bret

Howard Kveck

unread,
May 31, 2006, 1:19:36 AM5/31/06
to
In article <1149050109.8...@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"Bret" <bret...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Gunsberg wrote:

> > A distant 3rd...And the next Giro is, well, about a year away. Given
> > the career vectors of younger, up and coming cyclists, Simoni will have
> > scant chances to make it to the podium at any more Grand Tours, let
> > alone win one of them. He can keep racing as a team leader for another
> > couple of years, but his 3rd Place finish was his last hurrah.
>
> Simoni was consistently at the front of the race in a very difficult
> final week of the Giro. Basso himself said that Simoni was his main
> challenger. Who are we to believe? What besides winning would have
> impressed you?

> Bret

Basso was obviously in a league of his own, but Simoni was only 2.41 behind
Gutierrez and 6.17 in front of Cunego. He rode a good race and, as you say, he was
particularly strong in the last (and toughest) week.

But I can't say that I'm as much of a fan of him now.

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Tim Lines

unread,
May 31, 2006, 10:12:48 AM5/31/06
to

I agree with everything up to the last sentence. I'm sure there are
examples but none are ocurring to me. The trouble caused by
non-thinkers, led by a certain US President, seems clear.

Chris M

unread,
May 31, 2006, 10:30:37 AM5/31/06
to

Gunsberg wrote:

> I never liked Armstrong's "gifts", and I don't like Basso's request
> for a favor. Once Basso asked Simoni to stay with him, it seems to me
> that it is reasonable for Simoni to expect to be gifted the stage
> victory. If Basso wanted to win the stage, he should not have asked
> Simoni for any accomodations.


Don't be ridiculous. This conversation, as far as we know would not
have been unusual and happens among at least some riders every single
day. This "accommodation" could have been mere advice as in, "f you
don't back off (during the descent) you'll just get dropped on the next
climb". It is not asking for a favor if there is a strategic benefit
for each of them. That seems like the most likely explanation,
especially factoring in Simoni's character and the current form of each
rider.

Robert Chung

unread,
May 31, 2006, 11:33:42 AM5/31/06
to
Tim Lines wrote:
> Michael Press wrote:

>> Always the implication that we are supposed to out-grow
>> adolescence. Maybe we aren't. It's easier to respond to
>> and manipulate adolescent behavior. Look at the trouble
>> caused by thinkers.
>>
>
> I agree with everything up to the last sentence. I'm sure there are
> examples but none are ocurring to me. The trouble caused by
> non-thinkers, led by a certain US President, seems clear.

He's a decider, not a thinker.


William Asher

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May 31, 2006, 12:40:27 PM5/31/06
to
Robert Chung wrote:

>
> He's a decider, not a thinker.
>

You mean decisionist.

--
Bill Asher

Robert Chung

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May 31, 2006, 1:35:23 PM5/31/06
to
William Asher wrote:
> Robert Chung wrote:
>> He's a decider, not a thinker.
> You mean decisionist.

He's a uniter, not a divider. That's why the decider is against suiciders.


Donald Munro

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May 31, 2006, 2:05:08 PM5/31/06
to
Robert Chung wrote:

> He's a uniter, not a divider. That's why the decider is against suiciders.

Uniter. Isn't that some kind of religion ?