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Lance – The real scandal
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steve
May 13, 2013, 11:04:43 AM5/13/13
to
It seems to me that the real scandal is not that Lance doped but that
none of the leaders of WADA, UCI or any other organization involved in
racing and dope control has resigned in disgrace. These people had to
know. If fact some took some pretty suspicious payments. Yet all we
hear from them are self serving statements about what a terrible thing
Lance did. And the press is no better they make it sound like Lance
was beating up on a bunch of innocents like Pantani, Ulrich, Basso…
Why is Riis still listed as a winner? He has admitted to doping too.
Let’s be honest here: what was the best evidence that Lance was
doping? He was winning!
Further it seems to me that the leaders of the bike racing
associations and drug control are actively involved in enforcing the
“code of Silence” After Riis admitted to doping it was suggested that
there be amnesty for those that admitted to doping. I think this would
have been a great way to find out how people were getting away with
it. But no we couldn’t have that. So we get another ~10 years of
rampant doping and gosh another scandal. Do we have amnesty this time.
No we punish those that come forward. Levi is fired several Garmin
riders who admit to doping get an admitted slap on the wrist but it
certainly isn’t going to encourage anyone else to come forward. With
this head you know where approach I don’t see the problem going away.
Perhaps Lance was better at doping than most but he wasn’t beating up
on a bunch of dope free innocents. Can you name any podium finisher
from Riis through Lance and beyond that is above suspicion? I can’t.
If you consider the way the rules of the game were set up the result
is inevitable. You have to dope to win and you have a decent chance
of not getting caught. Under these rules you have to be pretty naive
to believe that nobody will dope. This is a classic Prisoners
Dilemma. Sure everyone would be better if nobody doped but that is not
what will happen. If Lance didn’t win those 7 tours because he cheated
(and I agree he did) some other doper would have.
none of the leaders of WADA, UCI or any other organization involved in
racing and dope control has resigned in disgrace. These people had to
know. If fact some took some pretty suspicious payments. Yet all we
hear from them are self serving statements about what a terrible thing
Lance did. And the press is no better they make it sound like Lance
was beating up on a bunch of innocents like Pantani, Ulrich, Basso…
Why is Riis still listed as a winner? He has admitted to doping too.
Let’s be honest here: what was the best evidence that Lance was
doping? He was winning!
Further it seems to me that the leaders of the bike racing
associations and drug control are actively involved in enforcing the
“code of Silence” After Riis admitted to doping it was suggested that
there be amnesty for those that admitted to doping. I think this would
have been a great way to find out how people were getting away with
it. But no we couldn’t have that. So we get another ~10 years of
rampant doping and gosh another scandal. Do we have amnesty this time.
No we punish those that come forward. Levi is fired several Garmin
riders who admit to doping get an admitted slap on the wrist but it
certainly isn’t going to encourage anyone else to come forward. With
this head you know where approach I don’t see the problem going away.
Perhaps Lance was better at doping than most but he wasn’t beating up
on a bunch of dope free innocents. Can you name any podium finisher
from Riis through Lance and beyond that is above suspicion? I can’t.
If you consider the way the rules of the game were set up the result
is inevitable. You have to dope to win and you have a decent chance
of not getting caught. Under these rules you have to be pretty naive
to believe that nobody will dope. This is a classic Prisoners
Dilemma. Sure everyone would be better if nobody doped but that is not
what will happen. If Lance didn’t win those 7 tours because he cheated
(and I agree he did) some other doper would have.
Anton Berlin
May 13, 2013, 3:05:40 PM5/13/13
to
They've all been doping for a long long time. Indurain, Roche, Lemond
with the blood boosting etc - keep going back and you may find a clean
TdF rider that won. Not sure when but there might be one.
with the blood boosting etc - keep going back and you may find a clean
TdF rider that won. Not sure when but there might be one.
raamman
May 13, 2013, 9:28:40 PM5/13/13
to
On May 13, 11:04 am, steve <SJgerdem...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> It seems to me that the real scandal is not that Lance doped but that
> none of the leaders of WADA, UCI or any other organization involved in
> racing and dope control has resigned in disgrace. These people had to
> know. If fact some took some pretty suspicious payments. Yet all we
> hear from them are self serving statements about what a terrible thing
> Lance did. And the press is no better they make it sound like Lance
> was beating up on a bunch of innocents like Pantani, Ulrich, Basso…
> Why is Riis still listed as a winner? He has admitted to doping too.
resign in disgrace ie comfortably retire
> It seems to me that the real scandal is not that Lance doped but that
> none of the leaders of WADA, UCI or any other organization involved in
> racing and dope control has resigned in disgrace. These people had to
> know. If fact some took some pretty suspicious payments. Yet all we
> hear from them are self serving statements about what a terrible thing
> Lance did. And the press is no better they make it sound like Lance
> was beating up on a bunch of innocents like Pantani, Ulrich, Basso…
> Why is Riis still listed as a winner? He has admitted to doping too.
cannot assume guilt and complicity in order to proceede with
appropiate penalty, but the extremely slow pace of investigation
mirrors that of death camp nazi guards
what is the importance of prosecuting complicity in sporting fraud
compared to other criminal activities ?
put it context, bike racing is an entertainment~ are you upset the
great wizard of oz was just a funny little man operating some levers
behind the curtain ? theres more important things in this world that
deserves attention
steve
May 18, 2013, 9:04:27 AM5/18/13
to
one "" from Vaughters.
“I think it’s inappropriate for anyone who was involved to take swings
at Lance. The information inside the sport was available and ready for
anyone to listen to, so it’s a little bit ridiculous to shield
yourself and your own image and lay it on Lance. The leadership of the
sport needs to take responsibility and say, ‘Yes, behind closed doors,
we knew what was up, and we failed to prevent it.’ There needs to be
clear and drastic changes to make sure it doesn’t happen again.
Instead you get rhetoric that just blames one person. It’s unfair, the
perception that Lance is the one that started the [doping] arms race.
He may have perfected it, and he went way too far in defending his
position, and he hurt a lot of people in process, but the culture was
in place before he ever raced in Europe.”
To me the real scandal is that the likes of Jean-Marie Leblanc or Pat
McQuaid haven't been forced out in disgrace is the real scandal. They
had to know what was going on in the sport.
Fred Flintstein
May 19, 2013, 5:55:33 PM5/19/13
to
On 5/18/2013 8:04 AM, steve wrote:
> On May 13, 6:28 pm, raamman <raam...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On May 13, 11:04 am, steve <SJgerdem...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It seems to me that the real scandal is not that Lance doped but that
>>> none of the leaders of WADA, UCI or any other organization involved in
>>> racing and dope control has resigned in disgrace. These people had to
>>> know. If fact some took some pretty suspicious payments. Yet all we
>>> hear from them are self serving statements about what a terrible thing
>>> Lance did. And the press is no better they make it sound like Lance
>>> was beating up on a bunch of innocents like Pantani, Ulrich, Basso�
> On May 13, 6:28 pm, raamman <raam...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On May 13, 11:04 am, steve <SJgerdem...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It seems to me that the real scandal is not that Lance doped but that
>>> none of the leaders of WADA, UCI or any other organization involved in
>>> racing and dope control has resigned in disgrace. These people had to
>>> know. If fact some took some pretty suspicious payments. Yet all we
>>> hear from them are self serving statements about what a terrible thing
>>> Lance did. And the press is no better they make it sound like Lance
>>> Why is Riis still listed as a winner? He has admitted to doping too.
>>
>> resign in disgrace ie comfortably retire
>>
>> cannot assume guilt and complicity in order to proceede with
>> appropiate penalty, but the extremely slow pace of investigation
>> mirrors that of death camp nazi guards
>>
>> what is the importance of prosecuting complicity in sporting fraud
>> compared to other criminal activities ?
>>
>> put it context, bike racing is an entertainment~ are you upset the
>> great wizard of oz was just a funny little man operating some levers
>> behind the curtain ? theres more important things in this world that
>> deserves attention
>
> An interesting story in Velo news about Vaughetrs and Armstrong. Just
> one "" from Vaughters.
>
> �I think it�s inappropriate for anyone who was involved to take swings
>>
>> resign in disgrace ie comfortably retire
>>
>> cannot assume guilt and complicity in order to proceede with
>> appropiate penalty, but the extremely slow pace of investigation
>> mirrors that of death camp nazi guards
>>
>> what is the importance of prosecuting complicity in sporting fraud
>> compared to other criminal activities ?
>>
>> put it context, bike racing is an entertainment~ are you upset the
>> great wizard of oz was just a funny little man operating some levers
>> behind the curtain ? theres more important things in this world that
>> deserves attention
>
> An interesting story in Velo news about Vaughetrs and Armstrong. Just
> one "" from Vaughters.
>
> at Lance. The information inside the sport was available and ready for
> anyone to listen to, so it�s a little bit ridiculous to shield
> yourself and your own image and lay it on Lance. The leadership of the
> sport needs to take responsibility and say, �Yes, behind closed doors,
> we knew what was up, and we failed to prevent it.� There needs to be
> clear and drastic changes to make sure it doesn�t happen again.
> Instead you get rhetoric that just blames one person. It�s unfair, the
> perception that Lance is the one that started the [doping] arms race.
> He may have perfected it, and he went way too far in defending his
> position, and he hurt a lot of people in process, but the culture was
> in place before he ever raced in Europe.�
> He may have perfected it, and he went way too far in defending his
> position, and he hurt a lot of people in process, but the culture was
>
>
> To me the real scandal is that the likes of Jean-Marie Leblanc or Pat
> McQuaid haven't been forced out in disgrace is the real scandal. They
> had to know what was going on in the sport.
>
Everyone that was paying attention knew what was going on. The fans
>
> To me the real scandal is that the likes of Jean-Marie Leblanc or Pat
> McQuaid haven't been forced out in disgrace is the real scandal. They
> had to know what was going on in the sport.
>
demand two things:
- Riders that are lit up like Christmas trees so they can do jaw
dropping stuff in races.
- Plausible deniability so they don't have to think too hard about
how the first part happens.
Tennis has this. Football (Gridiron and soccer) have this. The NBA
has it. Cycling doesn't have it because cycling is run by morons.
Cycling needs someone like Pete Rozelle, who was not a moron and
who saw revenues from his sport skyrocket when he was in charge.
F
steve
May 19, 2013, 10:38:32 PM5/19/13
to
On May 19, 2:55 pm, Fred Flintstein <bob.schwa...@sbcREMOVEglobal.net>
wrote:
> > we knew what was up, and we failed to prevent it. There needs to be
> > clear and drastic changes to make sure it doesn t happen again.
> > Instead you get rhetoric that just blames one person. It s unfair, the
Lance was the only one doping and gosh I just didn't know.
> - Riders that are lit up like Christmas trees so they can do jaw
> dropping stuff in races.
I don't agree. What I think people want is competition.You can't
really that a racer is going a few KPH faster but you can see pain and
effort and feel the excitement as athletes give it their all to gain a
few seconds.
> - Plausible deniability so they don't have to think too hard about
> how the first part happens.
As far as I'm concerned the plausibility of the denial isn't really
there.
wrote:
> On 5/18/2013 8:04 AM, steve wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 13, 6:28 pm, raamman <raam...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On May 13, 11:04 am, steve <SJgerdem...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >>> It seems to me that the real scandal is not that Lance doped but that
> >>> none of the leaders of WADA, UCI or any other organization involved in
> >>> racing and dope control has resigned in disgrace. These people had to
> >>> know. If fact some took some pretty suspicious payments. Yet all we
> >>> hear from them are self serving statements about what a terrible thing
> >>> Lance did. And the press is no better they make it sound like Lance
> >>> was beating up on a bunch of innocents like Pantani, Ulrich, Basso
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 13, 6:28 pm, raamman <raam...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On May 13, 11:04 am, steve <SJgerdem...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >>> It seems to me that the real scandal is not that Lance doped but that
> >>> none of the leaders of WADA, UCI or any other organization involved in
> >>> racing and dope control has resigned in disgrace. These people had to
> >>> know. If fact some took some pretty suspicious payments. Yet all we
> >>> hear from them are self serving statements about what a terrible thing
> >>> Lance did. And the press is no better they make it sound like Lance
> >>> was beating up on a bunch of innocents like Pantani, Ulrich, Basso
> >>> Why is Riis still listed as a winner? He has admitted to doping too.
>
> >> resign in disgrace ie comfortably retire
>
> >> cannot assume guilt and complicity in order to proceede with
> >> appropiate penalty, but the extremely slow pace of investigation
> >> mirrors that of death camp nazi guards
>
> >> what is the importance of prosecuting complicity in sporting fraud
> >> compared to other criminal activities ?
>
> >> put it context, bike racing is an entertainment~ are you upset the
> >> great wizard of oz was just a funny little man operating some levers
> >> behind the curtain ? theres more important things in this world that
> >> deserves attention
>
> > An interesting story in Velo news about Vaughetrs and Armstrong. Just
> > one "" from Vaughters.
>
> > I think it s inappropriate for anyone who was involved to take swings
>
> >> resign in disgrace ie comfortably retire
>
> >> cannot assume guilt and complicity in order to proceede with
> >> appropiate penalty, but the extremely slow pace of investigation
> >> mirrors that of death camp nazi guards
>
> >> what is the importance of prosecuting complicity in sporting fraud
> >> compared to other criminal activities ?
>
> >> put it context, bike racing is an entertainment~ are you upset the
> >> great wizard of oz was just a funny little man operating some levers
> >> behind the curtain ? theres more important things in this world that
> >> deserves attention
>
> > An interesting story in Velo news about Vaughetrs and Armstrong. Just
> > one "" from Vaughters.
>
> > at Lance. The information inside the sport was available and ready for
> > anyone to listen to, so it s a little bit ridiculous to shield
> > yourself and your own image and lay it on Lance. The leadership of the
> > sport needs to take responsibility and say, Yes, behind closed doors,
> > we knew what was up, and we failed to prevent it. There needs to be
> > clear and drastic changes to make sure it doesn t happen again.
> > Instead you get rhetoric that just blames one person. It s unfair, the
> > perception that Lance is the one that started the [doping] arms race.
> > He may have perfected it, and he went way too far in defending his
> > position, and he hurt a lot of people in process, but the culture was
> > in place before he ever raced in Europe.
>
> > He may have perfected it, and he went way too far in defending his
> > position, and he hurt a lot of people in process, but the culture was
> > in place before he ever raced in Europe.
>
> > To me the real scandal is that the likes of Jean-Marie Leblanc or Pat
> > McQuaid haven't been forced out in disgrace is the real scandal. They
> > had to know what was going on in the sport.
>
> Everyone that was paying attention knew what was going on. The fans
> demand two things:
Exactly but they all keep making holier than than thou statements like
> > McQuaid haven't been forced out in disgrace is the real scandal. They
> > had to know what was going on in the sport.
>
> Everyone that was paying attention knew what was going on. The fans
> demand two things:
Lance was the only one doping and gosh I just didn't know.
> - Riders that are lit up like Christmas trees so they can do jaw
> dropping stuff in races.
really that a racer is going a few KPH faster but you can see pain and
effort and feel the excitement as athletes give it their all to gain a
few seconds.
> - Plausible deniability so they don't have to think too hard about
> how the first part happens.
there.
Fred Flintstein
May 20, 2013, 12:38:43 PM5/20/13
to
Bike racing fans want what tennis fans want. Which is what baseball
fans want. Which is what football, soccer, and basketball fans want.
They only get upset if you tell them the details. All these sports
reach the same conclusion about what the fans are asking of their
athletes.
We are much better off appreciating sport for what it is rather than
what we might wish it was. Less disappointment that way.
F
PS The testing sucks. So really, there is no way to get from where we
are to where you would like everything to be.
steve
May 20, 2013, 1:15:29 PM5/20/13
to
On May 20, 9:38 am, Fred Flintstein <bob.schwa...@sbcremoveglobal.net>
wrote:
I think you misunderstand me.
I think in bike racing and running too what I want to see and I think
other do too is to see is athletes laying it all on the line for a
win. I can't tell watching a race if there are going slightly faster
until I see the time. Maybe baseball is different in that people want
more home runs.
I know the testing sucks and because of that I would prefer to see the
limits set by what can be detected. What we have now is the dishonest
situation where everyone if forced to use PEDs to compete and then to
lie about using them. Then teams and others involved make statements
about have a clean team and a no tolerance policy knowing full well
that the riders are using PEDs. The big losers in this situation are
the riders who are forced to use PEDs to compete, to lie about using
them and then risk getting caught and fired by the team that knew
exactly what was going on.
wrote:
I think in bike racing and running too what I want to see and I think
other do too is to see is athletes laying it all on the line for a
win. I can't tell watching a race if there are going slightly faster
until I see the time. Maybe baseball is different in that people want
more home runs.
I know the testing sucks and because of that I would prefer to see the
limits set by what can be detected. What we have now is the dishonest
situation where everyone if forced to use PEDs to compete and then to
lie about using them. Then teams and others involved make statements
about have a clean team and a no tolerance policy knowing full well
that the riders are using PEDs. The big losers in this situation are
the riders who are forced to use PEDs to compete, to lie about using
them and then risk getting caught and fired by the team that knew
exactly what was going on.
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