so you want to be a pro?
Scott
chasing that elusive pro contract, thinking that if they just get that
one opportunity they'll make it big. All they need is someone to
notice them and it's on like donkey kong. The sad thing is, most of
those in this situation must be delusional, as it's not a case of not
being noticed, it's probably a case of just not having the talent (are
you reading this, Mike?).
Here's a case of what happens when you actually have the goods:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/05/news/who-is-giro-stage-winner-bart-de-clercq_172960
Discuss amongst yourselves.
RicodJour
>
> Discuss amongst yourselves.
Scarponi came so close at the end. Miss-timed it by nanoseconds.
Excellent win for the young guy and his background makes it even
better.
BTW, I don't think it is necessary for you to point out that Mikey
Schitsman was a doping douchebag. That's pretty much a given.
R
Mike Jacoubowsky
news:fd1d6a19-cc50-41df...@dn9g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
Ah yes, living the $12k dream. :-)
I was actually discussing this last night with my (18 year old) son. Joking
that there's still time; if he wanted to dedicate his life to it, he could
become a successful bike racer (his epilepsy being just a minor thing
standing in the way). And I brought up the $12k dream, making sure he
understood the difference between the local pros and what he sees in the
TdF. I'll see if he wants to read Kimmage's book, "Rough Ride."
Too many Mikes around here! This one never doped when racing. :-)
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
Mike
>
> Discuss amongst yourselves.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Am I Mike? I never know. The world doesn't revolve around me does it?
I did waste my 20's trying to be a good bike racer, I raced as a
5,4,3, then collegiately, all in the same year, and then upgraded to
cat. 1 and then I went to real bike races and saw a bunch of really
talented, dedicated doped up freaks that raced at a different level -
they were gifted, both in their talent, drive and dope taking ability.
None of them had hair, they were all bald. I can name some names but
we know who I am talking about. Some are still racing for Radio
Shack.
I also raced with some kids that were 19 and dropped me, and none of
them became top pros. And some other dudes that were 26 and getting
PHD's - many became doctors and engineers. I raced with other guys who
were 37 and had kids and they all still hammered me until I was
demoralized. I realized I was talented and pretty good, but I was
never gonna win a stage of the Giro. It took about three years.
It was the most fun (funnest) time of my life and I don't regret a
minute of it. I had to get a real job eventually. Am I jealous of the
real stars who make it? Yes. But I'm sure they will have their own
stories to tell eventually, much more interesting than mine, but full
of compromises and realizations. I hope they save some money and keep
their urine clean.
You guys that watch on the sidelines and then judge the people that
tried to make it and failed - I think that is really sad.
But Scott, maybe you were doing something really fun in your 20's, I
don't know, drummer in a crappy band, I hope so.
Scott
In my 20's I spent my time in the company of some of the finest people
you'd ever meet.
Anton Berlin
parents.
Parents that pass on low V02 coupled with the deathnail of "morality
and ethics" ensure a cyclists demise
RicodJour
In your little romp down nostalgia lane above, you conveniently omit
that you were doping as well. Now you're playing the moral crusader
even though you don't regret any of it. You know, a schmuck.
R
RicodJour
Do you mean the deathnail of "morality and ethics" that is only
discovered after someone committed the offense?
"I'm sorry, your Honor, it was a bad time for me and I made some bad
choices, and I'm really, really sorry. I'll have to live with it all
my life." Sniff, sob.
Whingemaster Flash is playing all high and mighty after the fact, yet
he was just another doping douchebag. He knew what he was doing.
It's not like someone held a gun to his head. And he doesn't regret
any of it. Fuck him.
R
Frederick the Great
<bc28d06c-8d6f-489b...@d26g2000prn.googlegroups.com>,
Mike <mtsch...@gmail.com> wrote:
We do not judge you for doping, or not being as talented as the
good ones, or trying and failing. We judge you for spewing your
bitterness on those around you. We have all had those experiences,
even if they were not bicycle racing experiences.
--
Old Fritz
RicodJour
> In article Mike <mtschatz...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > You guys that watch on the sidelines and then judge the people that
> > tried to make it and failed - I think that is really sad.
> > But Scott, maybe you were doing something really fun in your 20's, I
> > don't know, drummer in a crappy band, I hope so.
>
> We do not judge you for doping, or not being as talented as the
> good ones, or trying and failing. We judge you for spewing your
> bitterness on those around you. We have all had those experiences,
> even if they were not bicycle racing experiences.
Please forward this to Landis. Thanks.
R
A. Dumas
> Please forward this to Landis. Thanks.
Do it yourself: https://twitter.com/GreyManrod
Steve Freides
Great line: "Riders should attack a little bit more, they sometimes look
too much to each other. If you feel good, you always need to try to
attack."
I don't know that it's actually good advice. One could argue - pretty
convincingly, IMHO - that the reason he stayed away is because no one
thought a no-name-newbie was capable of staying away for that long. The
interesting thing to watch is whether he wins more or is a one-trick
wonder who had beginner's - and unknown rider's - luck.
Of course, I apologize for actually discussing the race. I know
on-topic posting aren't allowed and we're supposed to piss and moan
about doping, old riders in old races, and our own never-realized
dreams. Again, my apologies -- I'll try not to let it happen again.
-S-
Michael Press
"Steve Freides" <st...@kbnj.com> wrote:
Is that sarcasm?
--
Michael Press
RicodJour
> "Steve Freides" <st...@kbnj.com> wrote:
>
> > Of course, I apologize for actually discussing the race. I know
> > on-topic posting aren't allowed and we're supposed to piss and moan
> > about doping, old riders in old races, and our own never-realized
> > dreams. Again, my apologies -- I'll try not to let it happen again.
>
> Is that sarcasm?
Inverse sarchasm.
R
Steve Freides
Nah ... :)
Well the last paragraph is sarcasm, not what preceded it. I actually
wouldn't mind discussing what I said that was on-topic - curious to know
if such "beginner's luck" happens in pro bike races. I don't think this
is the first time it's happened.
-S-
RicodJour
>
> Well the last paragraph is sarcasm, not what preceded it. I actually
> wouldn't mind discussing what I said that was on-topic - curious to know
> if such "beginner's luck" happens in pro bike races. I don't think this
> is the first time it's happened.
It doesn't matter how many years he has in the saddle, de Clercq rode
well any way you look at it. Scarponi on the other hand, as even
Gogulski mentioned as it was unfolding, was waiting for the exact
right moment to launch his attack and catch de C. He underestimated
de C by what appeared to be two or three watts.
R
yirgster
Someone talented, but not quite talented enough. On the ADR team with Greg Lemond the year of Lemond's 8 second tour victory, but on the B squad, despite sort of being promised that he'd still be able to ride the tour. Rode Paris-Roubaix, but did a lot more local kermis. Seems like almost every time he was on the way to a good result, he flatted, or got tangled with the food bag, or whatever, but there was usually something.
The chapter on kermis races is priceless including the small part about selling them: "Over the years I have recounted the stories of selling kermis races, and the response has run from shocked disbelief and anger to fascination. My experience as a pro cyclist in Europe has me with a somewhat altered moral code ..."
Terrifically written, imo.
Michael Press
"Steve Freides" <st...@kbnj.com> wrote:
That's sarcasm, right? I'm just learning.
<http://www.sarcasmsociety.com/sarcasm/howtobesarcastic/lessontwo>
> Well the last paragraph is sarcasm, not what preceded it.
Thanks.
> I actually
> wouldn't mind discussing what I said that was on-topic - curious to know
> if such "beginner's luck" happens in pro bike races. I don't think this
> is the first time it's happened.
I expect riders attack about as much as they can get away with,
and without burning more energy than it is worth.
--
Michael Press
Scott
> > "Steve Freides" <st...@kbnj.com> wrote:
>
> >> Scott wrote:
> >>> I'm always amazed by the folks who plug away their entire 20's,
> >>> chasing that elusive pro contract, thinking that if they just get
> >>> that one opportunity they'll make it big. All they need is someone
> >>> to notice them and it's on like donkey kong. The sad thing is,
> >>> most of those in this situation must be delusional, as it's not a
> >>> case of not being noticed, it's probably a case of just not having
> >>> the talent (are you reading this, Mike?).
>
> >>> Here's a case of what happens when you actually have the goods:
>
>
> >>> Discuss amongst yourselves.
>
> >> Great line: "Riders should attack a little bit more, they sometimes
> >> look too much to each other. If you feel good, you always need to
> >> try to attack."
>
> >> I don't know that it's actually good advice. One could argue -
> >> pretty convincingly, IMHO - that the reason he stayed away is
> >> because no one thought a no-name-newbie was capable of staying away
> >> for that long. The interesting thing to watch is whether he wins
> >> more or is a one-trick wonder who had beginner's - and unknown
> >> rider's - luck.
>
> >> Of course, I apologize for actually discussing the race. I know
> >> on-topic posting aren't allowed and we're supposed to piss and moan
> >> about doping, old riders in old races, and our own never-realized
> >> dreams. Again, my apologies -- I'll try not to let it happen again.
>
> > Is that sarcasm?
>
> Nah ... :)
>
> Well the last paragraph is sarcasm, not what preceded it. I actually
> wouldn't mind discussing what I said that was on-topic - curious to know
> if such "beginner's luck" happens in pro bike races. I don't think this
> is the first time it's happened.
>
> -S-
You guys are focused on the wrong aspect of the story. It's not that
he won, but rather someone noticed his obvious talent and brought him
up through a development system. He didn' spend years sleeping in his
Yugo and eating pb&j waiting for the big break that was never going to
come.
Steve Freides
> I expect riders attack about as much as they can get away with,
> and without burning more energy than it is worth.
Right, but that's my question - did he get away with what he did because
he was an unknown? My suspicion is that another rider of his abilities
having an equally good day (I know ...) might not have been allowed to
do it because at least some of the peleton would have reacted stronger,
sooner.
-S-
Ryan Cousineau
> On May 17, 10:02 am, "Steve Freides" <st...@kbnj.com> wrote:
> > Michael Press wrote:
> > > "Steve Freides" <st...@kbnj.com> wrote:
> >
> > >> Scott wrote:
> > >>> I'm always amazed by the folks who plug away their entire 20's,
> > >>> chasing that elusive pro contract, thinking that if they just get
> > >>> that one opportunity they'll make it big.
> > >>> Here's a case of what happens when you actually have the goods:
> >
> > >>>http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/05/news/who-is-giro-stage-winner-...
> >
> > >>> Discuss amongst yourselves.
> You guys are focused on the wrong aspect of the story. It's not that
> he won, but rather someone noticed his obvious talent and brought him
> up through a development system. He didn' spend years sleeping in his
> Yugo and eating pb&j waiting for the big break that was never going to
> come.
Are we supposed to be happy for him??
De Clerq, by winning a stage at the Giro, has all but guaranteed himself a good five years of serious, FIVE-figure employment (in Euros!) that will prepare him for such exciting and lucrative careers as...bike mechanic! Or...cycling coach! He's so cool.
It's good that he's living the dream. It's better that he didn't interrupt his studies to do so. I am just taking this moment of young(ish) Bart's success to piss from a height upon it, because I still don't believe pro cycling is much more professional than pro wrestling.
To put it another way, pro cycling is a fun hobby, but it should give you pause to consider how quickly pro peloton salaries converge with Europe-league basketball player salaries.
Ben Trovato
Well, young Bart apparently did get his university degree, in physical
education and kinesiology; so maybe he can have a future chasing
cougars in a fitness center. Or... cycling coach. But for now, he's
out there showing that an indifferent high-school xc runner prone to
injury can get paid for riding a bike with the best of them...
Scott
Again, focused on the wrong point. DeClerq is only relevant as a
counter-example to the Yugo driving, pb&j eating, and often doping no-
hopers. For those guys, they should accept that if they are not being
sought out at a relatively young age, it is not in the cards. Not
saying to quit racing, just face reality.
Ryan Cousineau
> On May 18, 10:36 am, Ryan Cousineau <rcou...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Tuesday, 17 May 2011 13:47:49 UTC-7, Scott wrote:
> > > On May 17, 10:02 am, "Steve Freides" <st...@kbnj.com> wrote:
> > > > Michael Press wrote:
> > > > > "Steve Freides" <st...@kbnj.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > >> Scott wrote:
> > > > >>> I'm always amazed by the folks who plug away their entire 20's,
> > > > >>> chasing that elusive pro contract, thinking that if they just get
> > > > >>> that one opportunity they'll make it big.
> > > > >>> Here's a case of what happens when you actually have the goods:
> >
> >
> > To put it another way, pro cycling is a fun hobby, but it should give you pause to consider how quickly pro peloton salaries converge with Europe-league basketball player salaries.
>
> Again, focused on the wrong point. DeClerq is only relevant as a
> counter-example to the Yugo driving, pb&j eating, and often doping no-
> hopers. For those guys, they should accept that if they are not being
> sought out at a relatively young age, it is not in the cards. Not
> saying to quit racing, just face reality.
Scott, for all but 10-20 pro cyclists, the only way to win is not to play.
I'm slightly kidding. My point is that pro cycling is not a great career, even disregarding the question of how few "pro" riders there are. The pay is pretty bad at all but the very sharpest end of the peloton.
It's still fun, I suppose: there's lots of young dumb guys who are bike racing because they love it, almost without regard to renumeration. There are lots of riders who get paid little more than sports bars and free bikes to race, and still do that as their full time "job," and love it.
But I just want to note that the "successful pro" de Clerq, a rider who has won a high-level cycling prize, is probably hovering somewhere around the the median income of rbr posters, a group that, while doing quite well for itself, probably doesn't include any high-end income outliers.
RicodJour
Fuck reality. What's it to you that another person's life choices
bother you? Big fookin' deal - the guy likes to ride his bike and has
a dream. I'm really at a loss to understand what you're suggesting as
the alternative. Continuing that line of thought....
"No, Johnny, baseball is not a realistic profession, so put down the
glove and go into your room and study the economics textbook I gave
you for your birthday. It's chartered accountancy for you, just like
your old man."
You do things while you can. A roofer won't be going up on a roof in
his sixties, etc., etc. Bike racing is a largely self-correcting
phenomenon. If a person isn't harming anyone and they enjoy doing
whatever it is, I don't give a rat's ass whether they're facing what
someone else considers reality or not.
R
Scott
So, today you're defending the 12k dreamers?
FWIW, as I said before, I'm not suggesting folks don't race. Just
suggesting that for many, a reality check is a good idea. A way to
determine if you're really gonna make it, take a look at the DeClerq
example. If you're good, someone will find you.
RicodJour
Please allow me to rephrase myself...
Fuck reality. And yes, I am 'defending' dreamers, though most are
wise enough to ignore such words trying to make them face reality,
whatever the fuck that means.
Answer me this, how many guys who 'wasted' their 20's following a
dream, looked back in later life and said, "I really wish I had sat at
a desk all those years."...hmmm? I'm guessing an amazingly low
percentage that hovers around zero.
It's the same thing as dying - nobody lies on their death bed and
regrets they didn't spend more time in the office. They regret that
they didn't spend more time with the family, didn't travel more,
didn't take a chance. These young guys are taking a chance, having
fun, suffering enough to know they're alive, and taking risks. I
would imagine, money not withstanding, that most of them would look at
your lifestyle and feel sorry for what you have to put up with.
They'd probably feel that way about mine as well.
I envy the young, and old, that can say fuck reality and make it
stick. There's way too much reality in the world already and it makes
it a lesser place.
R
yirgster
-- What I Did For Love, from Chorus Line --
Kiss today goodbye,
The sweetness and the sorrow.
Wish me luck, the same to you.
But I can’t regret
What I did for love, what I did for love.
Look my eyes are dry.
The gift was ours to borrow.
It’s as if we always knew,
And I won’t forget what I did for love,
What I did for love.
Gone,
Love is never gone.
As we travel on,
Love’s what we’ll remember.
Kiss today goodbye,
And point me t’ward tomorrow.
We did what we had to do.
Won’t forget, can’t regret
What I did for love
What I did for love.
Love is never gone
As we travel one
Love’s what we’ll remember.
Kiss today goodbye.
Point me t’ward tomorrow
We did what we had to do.
Won’t forget, can’t regret
What I did for love.
What I did for love.
What I did for love.
Anton Berlin
God damn you for being the first to post the lyrics from a musical
into RBR. In a matter of weeks the place will be flooded with pansies
debating about whether Dreamgirls of Chicago is a better soundtrack
for interval training.
Fred Flintstein
What if the dream you are chasing is a stupid ass dream?
And you are raising a false comparison. There are many ways to
waste one's youth that don't involve cube farms. I believe all
Scott is asking is that if you are going to chase a dream the
pursuit should also involve the possibility of that dream coming
true.
Fred Flintstein
yirgster
atriage
<SNIP>
> I envy the young, and old, that can say fuck reality and make it
> stick. There's way too much reality in the world already and it makes
> it a lesser place.
>
<APPLAUSE>
Fredmaster of Brainerd
Dumbasses,
There is living your dream of freedom and telling the
rat race to go hang itself, and then there is dying in a
hunting-shelter in Alaska because you can't get back
across the river and didn't bring a map to find the
nearest road.
One's laudable and the other's stupid. It's not always
as easy to draw the line. Be a 12K dreamer, sure, but
recognize that you are a 12K dreamer and that by the
time you've raced for a few years, if you had the talent
to make it to the big leagues, someone would have noticed
by now. I think that's what Scott was pointing out.
It's like college athletes, who have a tiny chance of making
it to the majors and getting the glory and money. There,
the forces encouraging that dream and exploiting the
athletes are large selfish institutions of higher learning
(and TV networks, etc). If there's one good thing about
US cycling's 12K dreamer system, it's that US cycling
is half-assed enough that no analogous institution or
person is making vast amounts of coin on the vain hopes
of the 12K dreamers.
Fredmaster Ben
Frederick the Great
<d755e01b-0694-4270...@35g2000prp.googlegroups.com>,
But think. If such an infrastructure existed
we would not have these unseemly, doping witch hunts.
--
Old Fritz