Keep Watch at Those Stop Signs..

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bcw...@yahoo.com

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Sep 12, 2005, 4:05:27 PM9/12/05
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http://www.breitbart.com/news/na/D8CIQME80.html

Ore. Bicyclist Charged With Manslaughter
Sep 12 12:21 PM US/Eastern


CORVALLIS, Ore.


A bicyclist was charged with manslaughter after he ran through a stop
sign and struck and killed a 71-year-old woman, police said Monday.

Jean Calder died at Good Samaritan Hospital after she was struck Friday
night as she crossed a street at an unmarked crosswalk, Corvallis
police Capt. Ron Noble said.

Christopher A. Lightning, 51, was charged with manslaughter and
reckless driving.

"A car and a bicycle are both vehicles and if they are operated in a
way that could be criminal, then charges are filed equally in both
situations," Noble said. "He was going right through a stop sign."

Lightning was being housed in Benton County jail with bail set at
$57,500. He will be given a court-appointed lawyer at his arraignment
in Benton County.

D. Ferguson

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Sep 12, 2005, 5:22:20 PM9/12/05
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Did he have V-brakes?
Was he wearing a helmet?
Was she wearing a helmet?

All questions that we should ponder.........

Jim Flom

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Sep 12, 2005, 4:49:19 PM9/12/05
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<bcw...@yahoo.com> wrote ...

>
> Lightning was being housed in Benton County jail with bail set at
> $57,500. He will be given a court-appointed lawyer at his arraignment
> in Benton County.

Now if he'd been in a car and the victim was on a bike it would be an
entirely different story.

J "I didn't see him!" F


SocSecTr...@earthlink.net

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Sep 12, 2005, 4:55:15 PM9/12/05
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bcw...@yahoo.com wrote:

> A bicyclist was charged with manslaughter after he ran through a stop
> sign and struck and killed a 71-year-old woman, police said Monday.

Here in the Northern Virginia suburbs two cyclists were killed in three
days on the popular W&OD trail. Despite the fact that Virginia law
_clearly_ gives bicycles on mixed-use trails the "same rights and
duties as pedestrians" the Loudon County sheriff's office is trumping
up charges on cyclists for not coming to _complete_ stops before
entering the crosswalks. They are probably trying to protect the county
from responsibility for its failure to properly maintain the
crosswalks, IMO. Unfortunately, it means that motorists not only get to
kill any bicyclist who doesn't completely stop at crosswalks, the
motorists have NO responsibility for avoiding them even after they
stopped because the bicyclist's responsibility to yield to traffic is
absolute (assuming that it can't be proven that it was a case of
assault with a motor vehicle).

(The standard for a pedestrian entering a crosswalk is basically don't
be stupid- yield to the 2-ton hunks of metal. But once you're in the
crosswalk the cars are supposed to stop, and they'd damn well better be
careful as they approach it.)

So we have two dead bicyclists and it's open season on the rest of us.
Unfortunately, there are many children using the path, and they may not
realize, even with the thoughtful assistance of the Loudon County
Deputies giving them tickets, that they can legally be run down now.

Claudius Vitalis

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Sep 12, 2005, 6:07:28 PM9/12/05
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> A bicyclist was charged with manslaughter after he ran through a stop
> sign and struck and killed a 71-year-old woman, police said Monday.
>
Cyclists have been getting too reckless for a long time. A pedestrian
here, a month ago, was mowed down by a hit and run bicyclist. Broke the
pedestrians jaw. The victim wants bicycles to have license plates, because
there is no way to track these law breakers down.


Jim Flom

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Sep 12, 2005, 6:58:35 PM9/12/05
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"Claudius Vitalis" <jazz...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:A_mVe.9199$4P5....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...

Like someone's going to be able to read the license plate of a fleeing
cyclist.


gds

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Sep 12, 2005, 7:28:29 PM9/12/05
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Claudius Vitalis wrote:
> The victim wants bicycles to have license plates, because
> there is no way to track these law breakers down.

Well they'd have to make the plates out of Ti or Carbon and they'd have
to be really small with really small numbers or else they'd just be too
heavy.
Maybe just a decal would work. You could stick it under the BB.

photos...@gmail.com

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Sep 12, 2005, 7:52:06 PM9/12/05
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This looks like a case for Bob Mionske.

I don't really get it...Cars kill people every day by running stop
signs or red lights (and don't get charged with Manslaughter).

Bill C

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Sep 12, 2005, 10:14:39 PM9/12/05
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Your on the same track that I am I think. If I was involved with one
of the cycling advocacy groups out there, I'd be digging hard to see
what the PD's response to cyclists hit and injured/killed by cars and
what charges were briught forward. None of this would be any good in
court, but you sure could make the PD answer some questions, if as I
suspect, the PD there has failed to press, or pressed minimum charges
when the cyclists were the victims.
Unfortunately there seems to be a huge double standard in most places.
I'd be very happy to be wrong, but even here we've had some
interesting experiences with the local PDs.
Bill C

Raptor

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Sep 13, 2005, 12:36:54 AM9/13/05
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(rec.bicyles.soc added)

There are cyclists and then there are people on bikes.

I usually don't get too upset when I hear about someone getting mowed
down in town, because the majority of bike riders in town are sloppy
thinking types on their way to low-paying jobs, the Sev, or kids who
haven't learned how to ride safely. They (the adults at least) flout the
law and behave like fast pedestrians who own the fucking road, sidewalk,
crosswalk, driveway AND parking lot.

OTOH, the local training routes are frequented with riders who know and
generally follow the law, inflicting a reasonable minimum of
inconvenience on the cagers and peds around them. Last year, this
community was inflamed by the case of Josie Johnson, who was run down
and killed near Solitude ski resort. Anyone riding a bike up there
(almost certainly) is a serious rider who spends enough time on the road
to know without question how to ride safely. When such riders are hit,
it's almost never their fault to any degree whatsoever, and it is a tragedy.

The driver, the wife of the owner of the resort, is still up on charges.

Oh. This was a reply to a different story. The question is: what kind of
bike rider was this guy? I need to know before I'll lift a finger to
defend him. As a cyclist, I daresay I'm more offended at the antics of a
lazy scofflaw rider than any cager watching.

--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall

Conservative dictionary:
Judicial Activist: n. A judge who tends to rule against your wishes.

bill

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Sep 13, 2005, 10:41:49 AM9/13/05
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I got in a shouting match with one of these dipsh**s once. He was one
of those [expeteve deleted] that insists on riding fixed gear in the
city, without a front brake. He was carrying a load in his arms with
no hands on the bars--not even in a musette bag--and doing about 18
down Market Street. He ran a red-light and plowed into a pedestrian.
When she went to the ground, he started yelling at her! So then I
started yelling at him. I was coming up from behind him when this
happened. He fired back a bunch of obsenities at me, so I told him
that if I saw him out without a front brake again, I would personally
mow him down. He fled down a side street and I never saw him again.

photos...@gmail.com

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Sep 13, 2005, 11:06:21 AM9/13/05
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I've seen no less than 5 bike messengers do the same thing in
Manhattan, and two of them decided to get in fist fights with the
people they hit. One of the messengers was huled off by the cops. No
surprise, because most of those guys are bad-ass weed fiends.

I learned my lesson in Manhattan once. I was out riding my vintage
"paperboy" bike when I decided to cut the wrong way down a deserted
street early on a Sunday morning. No big deal, right? Well, I forgot
just how used a pedestrian gets to a street being one-way, and a couple
walked right out in front of me with no warning whatsoever and I
crashed into them (at low speed). Totally my fault. I apologized and
never did it again. Luckily no one was hurt and there were no cops
around.

Philo

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Sep 13, 2005, 11:10:45 AM9/13/05
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I think we're all glad when anyone is charged with manslaughter for
killing someone while operating their vehicle. That is unusual (unless
you are drunk or high), unfortunately. There usually is no real
penalty for killing someone with your vehicle. In California they are
trying to pass a law to add penalties for inflicting bodily injury
while operating a vehicle (SB1021). It will cost you $150 to hurt
someone if it ever passes.

I think we all hope this arrest and charge is the start of a uniform
wave of charges related to vehicular manslaughter, applied to all
vehicles which kill and maim. If this new enforcement happens to begin
with a cyclist, so be it. Who can defend the cyclist who runs a stop
sign and kills an old lady? Let's hope this police action continues
with the real problem though: cars which run over and kill cyclists
and pedestrians to the tune of hundreds of cycling deaths and thousands
of pedestrian deaths each year.

(This is a US problem more so than a Euro problem, so the Euros can pat
themselves on the back for avoiding these issues).

photos...@gmail.com

unread,
Sep 13, 2005, 11:14:36 AM9/13/05
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Accidents happen. Why put people in jail over it? Simply because they
had the audacity to make a mistake? Shouldn't recklessness have a
factor in it?

The bike messenger that rides with no hands and no brakes is quite a
bit different than a guy who simply didn't stop at a stop sign.

Philo

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Sep 13, 2005, 11:39:14 AM9/13/05
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>The bike messenger that rides with no hands and no brakes is quite a
>bit different than a guy who simply didn't stop at a stop sign.

That's not an accident. He did not accidentally run the stop sign.
The bigger problem is that he killed someone while doing it. Lack of
intent makes the crime a manslaughter rather than a murder. Lack of
intent, or "accident", is not a get-out-of-jail-free card.

When you operate a vehicle you take on a responsibility to protect
others. When you operate recklessly and hurt or kill others, you
should pay the price. With accidents, there is an at-fault person and
there should be penalties for that person. If you kill someone, there
should be serious penalties. This is the only way to influence people
to take more care.

Bill C

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Sep 13, 2005, 12:13:26 PM9/13/05
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Unfortunately a lot of times the idea that it's an "accident" is
pretty far fetched.
I can't find the referenced comment but here's a bit of info:
http://www.ihpva.org/pipermail/hpv/2000-December/011790.html

Quoted:
I wrote to Mark Horowitz, our bike/ped coordinator, regarding the crash
statistics and traffic law. First, he replied:

>>Regarding the sentiments surrounding Gene's untimely demise, Dr. Martinez,
the head of the National Highway Safety Administration, made a similar
comment about the best was to kill someone was to run them over.

I'm with you in that cyclists who break the law and help create the
atmosphere we have to put up with piss me off even more. A while ago we
had two riders stopped and harrassed by the cops. Threason being
"ypu're all assholes and don't belong on the roads!" They were riding
side by side on a suburban street with no traffic and no cars parked on
the shoulder, both were cited for impeding the nonexistant traffic. We
had a rider hit from behind on a rural 2 lane State highway lined with
houses fields and a couple of small businesses last year. he was riding
all the way to the right, on the shoulder, way across the white line
when he was hit, there were several witnesses that stated all of this.
The cop who handled it said he swerved out in front of the car, and
shouldn't have been on that road anyway, though none of the witnesses
supported this, and a few argued vehemently with him that he was wrong.
Needless to say, even when this was all given to the local pd when the
cyclist protested his treatment not a damn thing was done, not even an
apology. he was told that if you engage in dangerous behavior,
accidents happen.
Once in a while, it seems, you get decent treatment, we had a junior
hit a while ago, luckily he wasn't hurt, when a car broke every rule in
the book to turn right in front of him. In spite of the fact that the
accident reconstruction showed that the car driver was totally at
fault, no citation was given. The cop explained that since the driver
hadn't actually hit him, just turned in front of him forcing him to
slam into the side of the car while trying to evade, that he would be
unable to make any charge stick even though he was a cyclist himself
and was convinced that the driver was wrong. The officer was very
knowledgeable, sympathetic, and convinced that there should have been
something done, but PD policy said that this was an "accident". We're
in the middle of another one that's worse than this all around because
the driver has been involved in several other crashes recently, and
there was injury and major damage, but it too, was declared an
"accident" with no citations issued and excuses made for the driver by
the PD. Everything says the driver was going too fast for existing
conditions which led directly to the accident, but I don't want to say
much yet.
Bill C

Alex Rodriguez

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Sep 13, 2005, 12:36:17 PM9/13/05
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In article <1126558515....@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
SocSecTr...@earthlink.net says...

Time to see a lawyer.
-------------
Alex

Alex Rodriguez

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Sep 13, 2005, 12:37:41 PM9/13/05
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In article <A_mVe.9199$4P5....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
jazz...@hotmail.com says...

More details please. From the few details you give it is hard to say who
is at fault.
---------------
Alex

Alex Rodriguez

unread,
Sep 13, 2005, 12:46:14 PM9/13/05
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In article <1126623981.5...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
photos...@gmail.com says...

>I've seen no less than 5 bike messengers do the same thing in
>Manhattan, and two of them decided to get in fist fights with the
>people they hit. One of the messengers was huled off by the cops. No
>surprise, because most of those guys are bad-ass weed fiends.

Don't be so quick to blame the cyclist. Pedestrians in Manhattan can be
pretty stupid and walk out in front of a vehicle even when the pedestrian
has a red light.

>I learned my lesson in Manhattan once. I was out riding my vintage
>"paperboy" bike when I decided to cut the wrong way down a deserted
>street early on a Sunday morning. No big deal, right?

Of course it is a big deal. You are going the wrong way down a one way
street.

>Well, I forgot
>just how used a pedestrian gets to a street being one-way, and a couple
>walked right out in front of me with no warning whatsoever and I
>crashed into them (at low speed). Totally my fault. I apologized and
>never did it again. Luckily no one was hurt and there were no cops
>around.

That is why it is a big deal.
-------------
Alex


Alex Rodriguez

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Sep 13, 2005, 12:47:58 PM9/13/05
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In article <1126624245....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
phil...@hotmail.com says...

>
>
>I think we're all glad when anyone is charged with manslaughter for
>killing someone while operating their vehicle. That is unusual (unless
>you are drunk or high), unfortunately. There usually is no real
>penalty for killing someone with your vehicle. In California they are
>trying to pass a law to add penalties for inflicting bodily injury
>while operating a vehicle (SB1021). It will cost you $150 to hurt
>someone if it ever passes.
>
>I think we all hope this arrest and charge is the start of a uniform
>wave of charges related to vehicular manslaughter, applied to all
>vehicles which kill and maim. If this new enforcement happens to begin
>with a cyclist, so be it. Who can defend the cyclist who runs a stop
>sign and kills an old lady? Let's hope this police action continues
>with the real problem though: cars which run over and kill cyclists
>and pedestrians to the tune of hundreds of cycling deaths and thousands
>of pedestrian deaths each year.

I hope that you have to prove fault first. Pedestrians do some really stupid
things, just like vehicle operators. I have noticed that most of the recent
stupid moves, both pedestrian and vehicle operators, usually involve someone on
their cell phone.
---------------
Alex

Torched Smurf

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Sep 13, 2005, 1:59:23 PM9/13/05
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Philo wrote:
> Who can defend the cyclist who runs a stop sign and kills an old lady?

No one seems to be asking the obvious question: what was that old lady
doing out in the middle of a street? Everyone knows old people have
inferior reflexes, and are not made to withstand the shock of being
bowled over at 22 mph. This makes them unfit to cross streets, in my
opinion. At least the old girl had a good run, making it to 71 before
her deteriorating judgement caught up with her.

-Smurf

Jym Dyer

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Sep 13, 2005, 2:14:12 PM9/13/05
to
=v= This is so anomalous that it's national news. No doubt
we'll be hearing this incident used as an examplar of "those
horrible dangerous scofflaw cyclists" for years.

=v= Meanwhile, 120/day are killed by cars, and the vast
majority of the motorists are *not* charged with criminal
negligence, manslaughter, or anything. But that's so very
common that it's not even "news."
<_Jym_>

crit...@yahoo.com

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Sep 13, 2005, 2:36:42 PM9/13/05
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I have to laugh. Locally, we had a mexican gardener who was driving
down a 50 mph, 4-lane divided road with an ample bike lane, at about
1PM on a weekday. He ran directly into the back of a 60 year-old
cyclist who was riding in the bike lane, killing him instantly. The
cyclist was an experienced rider, a retiree. Our designer was driving
about 1/8th mile behind the gardener when this happened, she said it
was utterly inexplicable as to why he ran into the cyclist. Tests
showed no evidence of drugs or alcohol, and the driver offered police
no explanation at all as to how the accident happened.

The case went to court. Judgement? Failure to yield right-of-way. No
charge of involuntary manslaughter. No loss of license.

Justice is not even-handed when it comes to incidents involving
bicycles.

CP

Alex Rodriguez

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Sep 13, 2005, 3:22:25 PM9/13/05
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In article <1126634363.0...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
torche...@yahoo.com says...

Not enough details posted. You shouldn't jump to put guilt on either party.
----------------
Alex

bill

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Sep 13, 2005, 3:27:39 PM9/13/05
to

We had a young man of Tibetan origin run down and killed on his way to
work one morning. The road has a 35 mph posting. No charges were
filed. The driver said she "didn't see him." This happened in a small
town in New England. I commute by bike on the same road. I used to
see this young man riding, on the same route that I ride on.

His only mistake in my opinion: staying too far to the right. He was
always right at the curb. He was struck at a relatively narrow spot in
the road, with no curb, grass to the road, and a big oak tree. I saw
the scene only a few minutes after it happened. It looked as if he was
sideswiped, lost control and hit either the tree or the ground on the
upslope.

Contrary to common sense, I make a point of riding conspicuously in the
road. They cannot claim to not see you, if you are in the middle of
the road. They also cannot attempt to pass you with oncoming traffic,
if you take the whole lane.

Drivers are lazy. They have a very difficult time using their brakes
merely for the purpose of keeping a bicyclist safe. But if you get
physically in their way, they will slow down. It is odd--if they see a
potential to squeeze you, they will. But they usually will not run you
down directly, the previous example quoted above excepted.

Jim Flom

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Sep 13, 2005, 4:44:33 PM9/13/05
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<crit...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1126636602....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Well yeah, _especially_ with mexican drivers. They're the worst. What does
his freaking race have to do with anything? Now go rent Crash and search
your soul.
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/crash/

JF


Mark & Steven Bornfeld

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Sep 13, 2005, 5:01:23 PM9/13/05
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Jim Flom wrote:

>
> Well yeah, _especially_ with mexican drivers. They're the worst. What does
> his freaking race have to do with anything? Now go rent Crash and search
> your soul.
> http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/crash/
>
> JF


4/4 "Discomfiting is the only way to describe this smart, edgy drama
rubbed raw by its own narrative anger."
-- Jeanne Aufmuth, PALO ALTO WEEKLY

I hate edgy.

Steve
>
>


--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Torched Smurf

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Sep 13, 2005, 5:06:29 PM9/13/05
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What a contrived, sermonizing load of horseshit that movie was. But
you're right, noting someone's ethnicity clearly constitutes racism.

-Smurf

John McCaskill

unread,
Sep 13, 2005, 5:22:27 PM9/13/05
to
Jim Flom wrote:
> <crit...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1126636602....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

<snip>

> Well yeah, _especially_ with mexican drivers. They're the worst. What does
> his freaking race have to do with anything? Now go rent Crash and search
> your soul.
> http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/crash/
>
> JF

For this group, I think this crash is more appropriate:

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/1076271-crash/


"To say this movie is sick is too facile. Let's just say it's
perverse. Crash is a grotesque film filled with vacuous characters and
a destitute theme."
-- John J. Puccio, DVDTOWN.COM

John McCaskill

Jim Flom

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Sep 13, 2005, 5:42:57 PM9/13/05
to
"Mark & Steven Bornfeld" <bornfe...@dentaltwins.com> wrote ...

>
> 4/4 "Discomfiting is the only way to describe this smart, edgy drama
> rubbed raw by its own narrative anger."
> -- Jeanne Aufmuth, PALO ALTO WEEKLY
>
> I hate edgy.

And that was one of the positive ones!


Michael Press

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Sep 13, 2005, 7:41:48 PM9/13/05
to
In article
<1126624476.8...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
photos...@gmail.com wrote:

> Accidents happen.

There are no accidents.

--
Michael Press

Jim Flom

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Sep 13, 2005, 8:42:00 PM9/13/05
to
"Michael Press" <ja...@abc.net> wrote in message
news:jack-14541A.1...@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com...

> In article
> <1126624476.8...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> photos...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Accidents happen.
>
> There are no accidents.

That would be Signs.
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/signs/

J "a movie for every occasion" F


Howard Kveck

unread,
Sep 14, 2005, 12:00:10 AM9/14/05
to
In article <D6HVe.12273$ck6.9711@trndny05>,

Mark & Steven Bornfeld <bornfe...@dentaltwins.com> wrote:

> Jim Flom wrote:
>
> >
> > Well yeah, _especially_ with mexican drivers. They're the worst. What
> > does
> > his freaking race have to do with anything? Now go rent Crash and search
> > your soul.
> > http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/crash/
> >
> > JF
>
>
> 4/4 "Discomfiting is the only way to describe this smart, edgy drama
> rubbed raw by its own narrative anger."
> -- Jeanne Aufmuth, PALO ALTO WEEKLY

The PA Weekly isn't exactly a top quality paper, Steve. A few years ago, an
older woman (she may have been in her 70s, I don't recall) stepped in front of
one of the local commuter trains. They ran that on the front page, with most of
the upper half of the page taken up with a headline reading "She had no next of
kin." Oh my...

--
tanx,
Howard

Butter is love.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Mike Jacoubowsky

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Sep 14, 2005, 3:23:14 AM9/14/05
to
> Unfortunately there seems to be a huge double standard in most places.
> I'd be very happy to be wrong, but even here we've had some
> interesting experiences with the local PDs.
> Bill C

Double standard or not, if the accident was in fact caused by a cyclist
blowing through an intersection and nailing a pedestrian in a crosswalk, I
don't think it's the sort of case that we ought to get behind as proof of
the injustices the cyclist endures in daily life.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Bill C" <trito...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1126577679.5...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Bill C

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Sep 14, 2005, 11:06:21 AM9/14/05
to

I agree with you completely, I'm not one of those people who are
willing to excuse the behavior because the person was on a bike. I'd
love to see the smaller stupidity such as running red lights and stuff
enforced the same as it is for cars, but that doesn't seem to happen
much either.
The laws are there, and are generally pretty clear. I'd just like to
see them enforced equally across the board. That would make it safer
for all of us out there.
Bill C

crit...@yahoo.com

unread,
Sep 14, 2005, 1:18:17 PM9/14/05
to

Jim Flom wrote:

> Well yeah, _especially_ with mexican drivers. They're the worst.

I noted his occupation, too, but that didn't get your P.C. hackles up.
You need to be more consistantly indignant.

CP

Mike Jacoubowsky

unread,
Sep 14, 2005, 1:24:14 PM9/14/05
to
> I agree with you completely, I'm not one of those people who are
> willing to excuse the behavior because the person was on a bike. I'd
> love to see the smaller stupidity such as running red lights and stuff
> enforced the same as it is for cars, but that doesn't seem to happen
> much either.
> The laws are there, and are generally pretty clear. I'd just like to
> see them enforced equally across the board. That would make it safer
> for all of us out there.
> Bill C

Ultimately the road laws exist for one simple reason- to encourage
predictable behavior. That's what saves our skins when we're out on the
road. Now, I suppose one could claim that cyclists blowing through stop
signs is so "predictable" that it constitutes expected behavior and thus can
be safely done? If so, then the laws should be changed to accommodate that
(which I find highly unlikely).

I rode with my son to his school this morning, and for the most part, the
cars weren't too bad. Pretty heavy traffic and people generally looking
where they were going, stopping where they should be stopping. On my way
back home it was a different matter entirely. Where the traffic was light,
cars coming up to stop signs where they'd be making a right-hand turn were
using them as "yield" signs, slowing down a bit but most certainly not
stopping. Scary stuff, when cars are learning behavior from cyclists. On a
bike, yes, I'll stop for a stop sign when I'm proceeding across the
intersection, but if it's clear and I'm making a right-hand turn, I'll slow
down but not likely make an effort to stop. So where does that put me?

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Bill C" <trito...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:1126710380.9...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

Jim Flom

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Sep 14, 2005, 1:46:41 PM9/14/05
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<crit...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1126718297....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

When I planned my original response, I was also (mis-)reading bill's post,
thinking the Tibetan was the one killing rather than the one killed. I was
going to say something to both of you but then I realized you were the only
one to make a gratuitous reference to ethnicity in a negative context. If I
am going to be consistently indignant, I should chastise people whether they
cite ethnicity negatively or positively.

Thank you very much.

JF, Chairman
The Rainbow Coalition


crit...@yahoo.com

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Sep 14, 2005, 4:02:36 PM9/14/05
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Jim Flom wrote:
> If I
> am going to be consistently indignant, I should chastise people whether they
> cite ethnicity negatively or positively.

Yup, that's the ticket. Make sure to continue your habit of ignoring
the content of postings, while fixating on P.C. details, that'll help
divert the discussion from the topic at hand. You're a role model for
r.b.r., thanks!

CP

Philo

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Sep 14, 2005, 4:14:28 PM9/14/05
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> So where does that put me?

Right where most of us are. Breaking the law. But the harm is
different in that you *generally* won't hurt or kill to the same extent
that motor vehicles hurt and kill.

If you use due caution, do not create a hazard, and don't screw up, I
don't care if you follow the letter of the law or not (car or bike).
But when you are in conflict with another use, you need to follow
strict rules.

Take that right hand turn if nobody else has the right-of-way and don't
worry too much about it. Pay your ticket if you get busted without
complaint. And if you hurt someone, be prepared to pay a very stiff
price.

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