Velonews defends the pursuit - and I god damn agree 100%
Anton Berlin
Internationale (UCI); and Mr. Michael Turtur, President of the UCI
Track Commission
cc: Mr. Jacques Rogge, President of the International Olympic
Committee (IOC); Mr. Hein Verbruggen, Member, IOC and ex-president,
UCI
Dear Messrs. McQuaid and Turtur:
In defense of the individual pursuit remaining in the track cycling
program at the Olympic Games
I understand that (1) discussions are currently taking place between
the UCI Management Committee and the IOC to finalize the changes in
the track cycling program for the 2012 Olympic Games in London; (2)
the purpose of the discussions is to have an equal number of events
for men and women; and (3) the current proposals include the
elimination of the individual pursuit competition (for both men and
women).
While no one disputes that women should be given as much opportunity
as men in sports, as is already the case in road cycling, mountain
biking and BMX, many people within the sport of cycling (including the
competitors themselves, cycling insiders, and members of the media)
believe that eliminating the individual pursuit from the Olympics
would be a catastrophic mistake. It is the equivalent of deleting the
1500 meters (the metric mile) from track & field athletics — something
that the IOC would never consider.
I understand that the event being considered to replace the pursuit,
one of the most prestigious events in cycling history, is a new event
called the omnium — which has very little support from the athletes,
some of whom regard it as a “joke.” Featuring five different races,
including a 200-meter sprint and 1km time trial, the omnium has
generated very little enthusiasm in the three years it has featured at
the world track championships, whereas the pursuit has a 70-year
legacy and is the only cross-over event truly accessible to both road
and track racers.
I am surprised that Mr. Turtur would even consider supporting the
elimination of the individual pursuit from the Olympic Games. He was
an accomplished track racer, and I still remember reporting his
dominant victory in the individual pursuit at the 1982 Commonwealth
Games in Brisbane — as well as his gold medal in the team pursuit two
years later at the Los Angeles Olympics. Mr. Turtur is also aware of
the many riders whose racing careers have evolved from the pursuit
event.
Although it was not called the pursuit at the first modern Olympiad in
1896, there has always been a middle-distance cycling race in the
Games for individuals and/or teams. The individual pursuit has been
contested at world championships since 1939, and its popularity with
the riders, coaches and crowds made it a natural to become an Olympic
discipline for the first time at Tokyo in 1964.
The inaugural champion, 24-year-old Jiri Daler, was the first cyclist
in Czechoslovak history to win an Olympic gold medal. His victory
greatly popularized cycling in his country, and five years later the
world cycling championships were held in his hometown of Brno. Daler
went on to become the first professional cyclist from eastern Europe
when he signed with the French team Frimatic.
Many leading pro racers in that era began their careers competing in
the team and/or individual pursuit. They included Frenchmen Jacques
Anquetil (the first man to win the Tour de France five times) and
Roger Rivière (a world hour record holder), German Rudi Altig (who
became the world pro road champion), and Britons Tom Simpson (another
world road champion and multi-time classics winner) and Barry Hoban
(his country’s most prolific Tour de France’s stage winner prior to
Mark Cavendish)
Another legendary pursuit rider, Knut Knudsen, was the first Norwegian
cyclist to win an Olympic gold medal, in 1972. He went on to become a
leading professional and wore the race leader’s pink jersey at the
Giro d’Italia. Other Olympians who progressed to the upper echelons of
pro cycling were Alain Bondue of France, Gregor Braun of Germany, Tony
Doyle of Britain, Viatcheslav Ekimov of Russia, Steve Hegg of the
United States, and Hans-Henrik Oersted of Denmark.
Olympic cycling was still restricted to amateur athletes in the
Barcelona Games, where Britain’s Chris Boardman startled the sporting
world with his emphatic victory in the pursuit over the favored east
Europeans. His aerodynamically designed carbon-fiber machine
revolutionized the art of bicycle building, and Boardman went on to
conquer the world hour record and set a speed record in the prologue
time trial of the Tour de France. His breakthrough success in the 1992
Olympic pursuit was the spark that generated Great Britain’s
subsequent climb to the pinnacle of world cycling.
Women’s track cycling first entered the Olympics in 1988, when only
the match sprint was contested; the individual pursuit was added in
1992. Some of the world’s best women racers have medaled in the
individual pursuit, including Germany’s Petra Rossner and Judith
Arndt; Rebecca Twigg of the U.S.; Marion Clignet of France; Leontien
Van Moorsel of the Netherlands; and Sarah Ulmer of New Zealand.
The current Olympic pursuit champion, Rebecca Romero of Great Britain,
has said this about the current proposals of the UCI Track Commission
to add two specialist sprint disciplines for women (the team sprint
and keirin) and eliminate the endurance riders’ pursuit: “I think we
should move towards equality between males and females in the medals
available, but I just think this isn't equality in terms of sprint and
endurance riders. You're taking away, essentially, with regards to the
individual pursuit, one of the purest forms of competition that there
is on the track.”
The value of the Olympic pursuit competition has been emphasized by
the experiences of the Beijing finalists Bradley Wiggins of Great
Britain and Hayden Roulston of New Zealand. Wiggins, the gold medalist
in both 2004 and 2008, this year went on to finish fourth overall at
the Tour de France. He is now regarded as one of the sport’s true
stars. As for Roulston, his performance in China has revived his
career as a pro cyclist, and he made his Tour de France debut in 2009.
Keeping the individual pursuit in the Olympics is vital to our sport.
Just imagine the men’s lineup in London: Wiggins says he will defend
his gold medal at home; silver medalist Roulston will be back for New
Zealand; the world’s fastest current pursuiter Geraint Thomas is Great
Britain’s second counter; USA’s world pursuit champion Taylor Phinney
will be 22 in 2012; Australia has two strong contenders in 2009 worlds
runner-up Jack Bobridge and former world junior champion Cameron
Meyer; and Belgium’s Dominique Cornu is improving fast. And that’s
just seven of the men who’d vie for pursuit gold in 2012.
In the five decades that I have been reporting on cycling, the
individual pursuit has remained one of the keystones of the sport. It
is very healthy at the junior (under-19) level, with the number of
entrants increasing impressively at recent world junior championships
from 27 riders in 2007, 36 in 2008, and 46 in 2009 — a 77 percent
increase in two years.
The first Olympic women’s cycling gold medalist and former world
pursuit champion Connie Carpenter recently told me: “I did pursuit
because all the great road riders did it — it was a place to showcase
your pure power and form.” She is just one of hundreds of top cyclists
who chose to contest the individual pursuit because of its pure
athletic challenge.
If the UCI and its Track Commission continues to recommend the
elimination of the individual pursuit from the 2012 Olympics, it is
making a monumental error. Please reconsider your decision on this
historic event that is vital to the health and popularity of cycling
throughout the world.
Very sincerely,
John Wilcockson
Editor-at-Large, VeloNews
MagillaGorilla
Olympics except for fucked up gerbil wheel spinners.
Thanks,
Magilla
Anton Berlin wrote:
> Roger Rivi�re (a world hour record holder), German Rudi Altig (who
z
> AN OPEN LETTER TO: Mr. Pat McQuaid, President of the Union Cycliste
> Internationale (UCI); and Mr. Michael Turtur, President of the UCI
> Track Commission
>
> cc: Mr. Jacques Rogge, President of the International Olympic
> Committee (IOC); Mr. Hein Verbruggen, Member, IOC and ex-president,
> UCI
>
> Dear Messrs. McQuaid and Turtur:
>
> In defense of the individual pursuit remaining in the track cycling
> program at the Olympic Games
>
> I understand that (1) discussions are currently taking place between
> the UCI Management Committee and the IOC to finalize the changes in
> the track cycling program for the 2012 Olympic Games in London; (2)
> the purpose of the discussions is to have an equal number of events
> for men and women; and (3) the current proposals include the
> elimination of the individual pursuit competition (for both men and
> women).
>
> While no one disputes that women should be given as much opportunity
> as men in sports, as is already the case in road cycling, mountain
> biking and BMX, many people within the sport of cycling (including the
> competitors themselves, cycling insiders, and members of the media)
> believe that eliminating the individual pursuit from the Olympics
> would be a catastrophic mistake. It is the equivalent of deleting the
> that the IOC would never consider.
>
> I understand that the event being considered to replace the pursuit,
> one of the most prestigious events in cycling history, is a new event
> some of whom regard it as a �joke.� Featuring five different races,
> including a 200-meter sprint and 1km time trial, the omnium has
> generated very little enthusiasm in the three years it has featured at
> the world track championships, whereas the pursuit has a 70-year
> legacy and is the only cross-over event truly accessible to both road
> and track racers.
>
> I am surprised that Mr. Turtur would even consider supporting the
> elimination of the individual pursuit from the Olympic Games. He was
> an accomplished track racer, and I still remember reporting his
> dominant victory in the individual pursuit at the 1982 Commonwealth
> years later at the Los Angeles Olympics. Mr. Turtur is also aware of
> the many riders whose racing careers have evolved from the pursuit
> event.
>
> Although it was not called the pursuit at the first modern Olympiad in
> 1896, there has always been a middle-distance cycling race in the
> Games for individuals and/or teams. The individual pursuit has been
> contested at world championships since 1939, and its popularity with
> the riders, coaches and crowds made it a natural to become an Olympic
> discipline for the first time at Tokyo in 1964.
>
> The inaugural champion, 24-year-old Jiri Daler, was the first cyclist
> in Czechoslovak history to win an Olympic gold medal. His victory
> greatly popularized cycling in his country, and five years later the
> world cycling championships were held in his hometown of Brno. Daler
> went on to become the first professional cyclist from eastern Europe
> when he signed with the French team Frimatic.
>
> Many leading pro racers in that era began their careers competing in
> the team and/or individual pursuit. They included Frenchmen Jacques
> Anquetil (the first man to win the Tour de France five times) and
> became the world pro road champion), and Britons Tom Simpson (another
> world road champion and multi-time classics winner) and Barry Hoban
> Mark Cavendish)
>
> Another legendary pursuit rider, Knut Knudsen, was the first Norwegian
> cyclist to win an Olympic gold medal, in 1972. He went on to become a
> Giro d�Italia. Other Olympians who progressed to the upper echelons of
> pro cycling were Alain Bondue of France, Gregor Braun of Germany, Tony
> Doyle of Britain, Viatcheslav Ekimov of Russia, Steve Hegg of the
> United States, and Hans-Henrik Oersted of Denmark.
>
> Olympic cycling was still restricted to amateur athletes in the
> world with his emphatic victory in the pursuit over the favored east
> Europeans. His aerodynamically designed carbon-fiber machine
> revolutionized the art of bicycle building, and Boardman went on to
> conquer the world hour record and set a speed record in the prologue
> time trial of the Tour de France. His breakthrough success in the 1992
> subsequent climb to the pinnacle of world cycling.
>
> the match sprint was contested; the individual pursuit was added in
> individual pursuit, including Germany�s Petra Rossner and Judith
> Arndt; Rebecca Twigg of the U.S.; Marion Clignet of France; Leontien
> Van Moorsel of the Netherlands; and Sarah Ulmer of New Zealand.
>
> The current Olympic pursuit champion, Rebecca Romero of Great Britain,
> has said this about the current proposals of the UCI Track Commission
> to add two specialist sprint disciplines for women (the team sprint
> should move towards equality between males and females in the medals
> available, but I just think this isn't equality in terms of sprint and
> endurance riders. You're taking away, essentially, with regards to the
> individual pursuit, one of the purest forms of competition that there
>
> The value of the Olympic pursuit competition has been emphasized by
> the experiences of the Beijing finalists Bradley Wiggins of Great
> Britain and Hayden Roulston of New Zealand. Wiggins, the gold medalist
> in both 2004 and 2008, this year went on to finish fourth overall at
> stars. As for Roulston, his performance in China has revived his
> career as a pro cyclist, and he made his Tour de France debut in 2009.
>
> Keeping the individual pursuit in the Olympics is vital to our sport.
> his gold medal at home; silver medalist Roulston will be back for New
> Britain�s second counter; USA�s world pursuit champion Taylor Phinney
> will be 22 in 2012; Australia has two strong contenders in 2009 worlds
> runner-up Jack Bobridge and former world junior champion Cameron
> just seven of the men who�d vie for pursuit gold in 2012.
>
> In the five decades that I have been reporting on cycling, the
> individual pursuit has remained one of the keystones of the sport. It
> is very healthy at the junior (under-19) level, with the number of
> entrants increasing impressively at recent world junior championships
> increase in two years.
>
> The first Olympic women�s cycling gold medalist and former world
> pursuit champion Connie Carpenter recently told me: �I did pursuit
> because all the great road riders did it � it was a place to showcase
> your pure power and form.� She is just one of hundreds of top cyclists
> who chose to contest the individual pursuit because of its pure
> athletic challenge.
>
> If the UCI and its Track Commission continues to recommend the
> elimination of the individual pursuit from the 2012 Olympics, it is
> making a monumental error. Please reconsider your decision on this
> historic event that is vital to the health and popularity of cycling
> throughout the world.
>
> Very sincerely,
>
> John Wilcockson
> Editor-at-Large, VeloNews
The funny thing about Ekimov is that he never competed in the Olympics
in the individual pursuit: in 1984 the Soviets boycotted. In 1988 he
rode the team pursuit, an event that will remain in the Olys.
(Guintautas Umaras rode and won the individual pursuit for the USSR.)
Anton Berlin
> Anton Berlin wrote:
> > AN OPEN LETTER TO: Mr. Pat McQuaid, President of the Union Cycliste
> > Internationale (UCI); and Mr. Michael Turtur, President of the UCI
> > Track Commission
>
> > cc: Mr. Jacques Rogge, President of the International Olympic
> > Committee (IOC); Mr. Hein Verbruggen, Member, IOC and ex-president,
> > UCI
>
> > Dear Messrs. McQuaid and Turtur:
>
> > In defense of the individual pursuit remaining in the track cycling
> > program at the Olympic Games
>
> > I understand that (1) discussions are currently taking place between
> > the UCI Management Committee and the IOC to finalize the changes in
> > the track cycling program for the 2012 Olympic Games in London; (2)
> > the purpose of the discussions is to have an equal number of events
> > for men and women; and (3) the current proposals include the
> > elimination of the individual pursuit competition (for both men and
> > women).
>
> > While no one disputes that women should be given as much opportunity
> > as men in sports, as is already the case in road cycling, mountain
> > biking and BMX, many people within the sport of cycling (including the
> > competitors themselves, cycling insiders, and members of the media)
> > believe that eliminating the individual pursuit from the Olympics
> > would be a catastrophic mistake. It is the equivalent of deleting the
> > that the IOC would never consider.
>
> > I understand that the event being considered to replace the pursuit,
> > one of the most prestigious events in cycling history, is a new event
> > some of whom regard it as a “joke.” Featuring five different races,
> > including a 200-meter sprint and 1km time trial, the omnium has
> > generated very little enthusiasm in the three years it has featured at
> > the world track championships, whereas the pursuit has a 70-year
> > legacy and is the only cross-over event truly accessible to both road
> > and track racers.
>
> > I am surprised that Mr. Turtur would even consider supporting the
> > elimination of the individual pursuit from the Olympic Games. He was
> > an accomplished track racer, and I still remember reporting his
> > dominant victory in the individual pursuit at the 1982 Commonwealth
> > years later at the Los Angeles Olympics. Mr. Turtur is also aware of
> > the many riders whose racing careers have evolved from the pursuit
> > event.
>
> > Although it was not called the pursuit at the first modern Olympiad in
> > 1896, there has always been a middle-distance cycling race in the
> > Games for individuals and/or teams. The individual pursuit has been
> > contested at world championships since 1939, and its popularity with
> > the riders, coaches and crowds made it a natural to become an Olympic
> > discipline for the first time at Tokyo in 1964.
>
> > The inaugural champion, 24-year-old Jiri Daler, was the first cyclist
> > in Czechoslovak history to win an Olympic gold medal. His victory
> > greatly popularized cycling in his country, and five years later the
> > world cycling championships were held in his hometown of Brno. Daler
> > went on to become the first professional cyclist from eastern Europe
> > when he signed with the French team Frimatic.
>
> > Many leading pro racers in that era began their careers competing in
> > the team and/or individual pursuit. They included Frenchmen Jacques
> > Anquetil (the first man to win the Tour de France five times) and
> > became the world pro road champion), and Britons Tom Simpson (another
> > world road champion and multi-time classics winner) and Barry Hoban
> > Mark Cavendish)
>
> > Another legendary pursuit rider, Knut Knudsen, was the first Norwegian
> > cyclist to win an Olympic gold medal, in 1972. He went on to become a
> > Giro d’Italia. Other Olympians who progressed to the upper echelons of
> > pro cycling were Alain Bondue of France, Gregor Braun of Germany, Tony
> > Doyle of Britain, Viatcheslav Ekimov of Russia, Steve Hegg of the
> > United States, and Hans-Henrik Oersted of Denmark.
>
> > Olympic cycling was still restricted to amateur athletes in the
> > world with his emphatic victory in the pursuit over the favored east
> > Europeans. His aerodynamically designed carbon-fiber machine
> > revolutionized the art of bicycle building, and Boardman went on to
> > conquer the world hour record and set a speed record in the prologue
> > time trial of the Tour de France. His breakthrough success in the 1992
> > subsequent climb to the pinnacle of world cycling.
>
> > the match sprint was contested; the individual pursuit was added in
> > individual pursuit, including Germany’s Petra Rossner and Judith
> > Arndt; Rebecca Twigg of the U.S.; Marion Clignet of France; Leontien
> > Van Moorsel of the Netherlands; and Sarah Ulmer of New Zealand.
>
> > The current Olympic pursuit champion, Rebecca Romero of Great Britain,
> > has said this about the current proposals of the UCI Track Commission
> > to add two specialist sprint disciplines for women (the team sprint
> > should move towards equality between males and females in the medals
> > available, but I just think this isn't equality in terms of sprint and
> > endurance riders. You're taking away, essentially, with regards to the
> > individual pursuit, one of the purest forms of competition that there
>
> > The value of the Olympic pursuit competition has been emphasized by
> > the experiences of the Beijing finalists Bradley Wiggins of Great
> > Britain and Hayden Roulston of New Zealand. Wiggins, the gold medalist
> > in both 2004 and 2008, this year went on to finish fourth overall at
> > stars. As for Roulston, his performance in China has revived his
> > career as a pro cyclist, and he made his Tour de France debut in 2009.
>
> > Keeping the individual pursuit in the Olympics is vital to our sport.
> > his gold medal at home; silver medalist Roulston will be back for New
> > will be 22 in 2012; Australia has two strong contenders in 2009 worlds
> > runner-up Jack Bobridge and former world junior champion Cameron
> > just seven of the men who’d vie for pursuit gold in 2012.
>
> > In the five decades that I have been reporting on cycling, the
> > individual pursuit has remained one of the keystones of the sport. It
> > is very healthy at the junior (under-19) level, with the number of
> > entrants increasing impressively at recent world junior championships
> > increase in two years.
>
> > The first Olympic women’s cycling gold medalist and former world
> > pursuit champion Connie Carpenter recently told me: “I did pursuit
> > because all the great road riders did it — it was a place to showcase
> > your pure power and form.” She is just one of hundreds of top cyclists
> > who chose to contest the individual pursuit because of its pure
> > athletic challenge.
>
> > If the UCI and its Track Commission continues to recommend the
> > elimination of the individual pursuit from the 2012 Olympics, it is
> > making a monumental error. Please reconsider your decision on this
> > historic event that is vital to the health and popularity of cycling
> > throughout the world.
>
> > Very sincerely,
>
> > John Wilcockson
> > Editor-at-Large, VeloNews
>
> The funny thing about Ekimov is that he never competed in the Olympics
> in the individual pursuit: in 1984 the Soviets boycotted. In 1988 he
> rode the team pursuit, an event that will remain in the Olys.
>
> - Show quoted text -
Most people don't remember Umaras since he was out of the picture for
the most part after 1988.
Kasputis won the bronze (another 1988 USSR team member) in the
professional 5km pursuit in 1992 the same year Mike (VO2 MAX) McCarthy
got the gold.
Anton Berlin
can't corner, can't climb, don't like lifiting weights, have no
endurance and are afraid of crashing?
LOL
Scott
Texas Hold 'Em.
z
Saturday morning group rides
Paul B. Anders
You shouldn't talk about Twigg that way, she had good endurance and
could climb, too.
Brad Anders
MagillaGorilla
Track racing doesn't belong in the Olympics. It's a gay-ass sport and
has no sustainability outside of the Olympics. How many athletes make a
livable wage doing track cycling in the United States...maybe 20?
There's only like 5 fucking velodromes in the entire United
States...imagine if there were only 5 baseball fields in the United
States and then tried to sell baseball as an national pastime? It
doesn't pass the laugh test.
How many velodromes are there in Africa or China or Russia....like 2 or
3 in each country? Ask yourself how many swimming pools or running
tracks there are in those same countries (hundreds if not
thousands...one at every high school and country). Velodromes have no
such prominence and are this nothing more then gerbil wheels.
Track cycling is for fucked up people who aspire to be gerbils. I hope
the town council in Allentown votes one day to bulldoze Trexlertown and
turn it into a goddamn parking lot or a strip mall....something that can
better serve the public than a gerbil wheel full of doped-up gerbils
(and hamsters).
I think curling is a more legitimate sport than track cycling.
How do you like them apples?
Magilla
Susan Walker
> How do you like them apples?
MagillaGorilla
But Twigg's best discipline in the Olympics was throwing a hissy fit
during the Games and going home like a moose pussy because USAC wouldn't
credntial her blood doping coach Eddy Bologna. Twigg was also one of
these bitch women back in the 1990's who hated Jeannie Longo (for no
compelling reason other than she had no life) and then thought her
quotes to the TV cameras about "riding just so Longo wouldn't win" was a
cool thing to say even though it really made no sense. Now everybody
realizes Twigg was a fuckhead.
Thanks,
Magilla
references:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sports/olympics/daily/cycling/july/31/twigg.htm
Anton Berlin
Twigg was cute when she still had the baby fat on her.
Geez now that I think about it.... that was into her late 20s.
Anton Berlin
> > AN OPEN LETTER TO: Mr. Pat McQuaid, President of the Union Cycliste
> > Internationale (UCI); and Mr. Michael Turtur, President of the UCI
> > Track Commission
>
> > cc: Mr. Jacques Rogge, President of the International Olympic
> > Committee (IOC); Mr. Hein Verbruggen, Member, IOC and ex-president,
> > UCI
>
> > Dear Messrs. McQuaid and Turtur:
>
> > In defense of the individual pursuit remaining in the track cycling
> > program at the Olympic Games
>
> > I understand that (1) discussions are currently taking place between
> > the UCI Management Committee and the IOC to finalize the changes in
> > the track cycling program for the 2012 Olympic Games in London; (2)
> > the purpose of the discussions is to have an equal number of events
> > for men and women; and (3) the current proposals include the
> > elimination of the individual pursuit competition (for both men and
> > women).
>
> > While no one disputes that women should be given as much opportunity
> > as men in sports, as is already the case in road cycling, mountain
> > biking and BMX, many people within the sport of cycling (including the
> > competitors themselves, cycling insiders, and members of the media)
> > believe that eliminating the individual pursuit from the Olympics
> > would be a catastrophic mistake. It is the equivalent of deleting the
> > that the IOC would never consider.
>
> > I understand that the event being considered to replace the pursuit,
> > one of the most prestigious events in cycling history, is a new event
> > some of whom regard it as a “joke.” Featuring five different races,
> > including a 200-meter sprint and 1km time trial, the omnium has
> > generated very little enthusiasm in the three years it has featured at
> > the world track championships, whereas the pursuit has a 70-year
> > legacy and is the only cross-over event truly accessible to both road
> > and track racers.
>
> > I am surprised that Mr. Turtur would even consider supporting the
> > elimination of the individual pursuit from the Olympic Games. He was
> > an accomplished track racer, and I still remember reporting his
> > dominant victory in the individual pursuit at the 1982 Commonwealth
> > years later at the Los Angeles Olympics. Mr. Turtur is also aware of
> > the many riders whose racing careers have evolved from the pursuit
> > event.
>
> > Although it was not called the pursuit at the first modern Olympiad in
> > 1896, there has always been a middle-distance cycling race in the
> > Games for individuals and/or teams. The individual pursuit has been
> > contested at world championships since 1939, and its popularity with
> > the riders, coaches and crowds made it a natural to become an Olympic
> > discipline for the first time at Tokyo in 1964.
>
> > The inaugural champion, 24-year-old Jiri Daler, was the first cyclist
> > in Czechoslovak history to win an Olympic gold medal. His victory
> > greatly popularized cycling in his country, and five years later the
> > world cycling championships were held in his hometown of Brno. Daler
> > went on to become the first professional cyclist from eastern Europe
> > when he signed with the French team Frimatic.
>
> > Many leading pro racers in that era began their careers competing in
> > the team and/or individual pursuit. They included Frenchmen Jacques
> > Anquetil (the first man to win the Tour de France five times) and
> > became the world pro road champion), and Britons Tom Simpson (another
> > world road champion and multi-time classics winner) and Barry Hoban
> > Mark Cavendish)
>
> > Another legendary pursuit rider, Knut Knudsen, was the first Norwegian
> > cyclist to win an Olympic gold medal, in 1972. He went on to become a
> > Giro d’Italia. Other Olympians who progressed to the upper echelons of
> > pro cycling were Alain Bondue of France, Gregor Braun of Germany, Tony
> > Doyle of Britain, Viatcheslav Ekimov of Russia, Steve Hegg of the
> > United States, and Hans-Henrik Oersted of Denmark.
>
> > Olympic cycling was still restricted to amateur athletes in the
> > world with his emphatic victory in the pursuit over the favored east
> > Europeans. His aerodynamically designed carbon-fiber machine
> > revolutionized the art of bicycle building, and Boardman went on to
> > conquer the world hour record and set a speed record in the prologue
> > time trial of the Tour de France. His breakthrough success in the 1992
> > subsequent climb to the pinnacle of world cycling.
>
> > the match sprint was contested; the individual pursuit was added in
> > individual pursuit, including Germany’s Petra Rossner and Judith
> > Arndt; Rebecca Twigg of the U.S.; Marion Clignet of France; Leontien
> > Van Moorsel of the Netherlands; and Sarah Ulmer of New Zealand.
>
> > The current Olympic pursuit champion, Rebecca Romero of Great Britain,
> > has said this about the current proposals of the UCI Track Commission
> > to add two specialist sprint disciplines for women (the team sprint
> > should move towards equality between males and females in the medals
> > available, but I just think this isn't equality in terms of sprint and
> > endurance riders. You're taking away, essentially, with regards to the
> > individual pursuit, one of the purest forms of competition that there
>
> > The value of the Olympic pursuit competition has been emphasized by
> > the experiences of the Beijing finalists Bradley Wiggins of Great
> > Britain and Hayden Roulston of New Zealand. Wiggins, the gold medalist
> > in both 2004 and 2008, this year went on to finish fourth overall at
> > stars. As for Roulston, his performance in China has revived his
> > career as a pro cyclist, and he made his Tour de France debut in 2009.
>
> > Keeping the individual pursuit in the Olympics is vital to our sport.
> > his gold medal at home; silver medalist Roulston will be back for New
> > will be 22 in 2012; Australia has two strong contenders in 2009 worlds
> > runner-up Jack Bobridge and former world junior champion Cameron
> > just seven of the men who’d vie for pursuit gold in 2012.
>
> > In the five decades that I have been reporting on cycling, the
> > individual pursuit has remained one of the keystones of the sport. It
> > is very healthy at the junior (under-19) level, with the number of
> > entrants increasing impressively at recent world junior championships
> > increase in two years.
>
> > The first Olympic women’s cycling gold medalist and former world
> > pursuit champion Connie Carpenter recently told me: “I did pursuit
> > because all the great road riders did it — it was a place to showcase
> > your pure power and form.” She is just one of hundreds of top cyclists
> > who chose to contest the individual pursuit because of its pure
> > athletic challenge.
>
> > If the UCI and its Track Commission continues to recommend the
> > elimination of the individual pursuit from the 2012 Olympics, it is
> > making a monumental error. Please reconsider your decision on this
> > historic event that is vital to the health and popularity of cycling
> > throughout the world.
>
> > Very sincerely,
>
> > John Wilcockson
> > Editor-at-Large, VeloNews
>
> The funny thing about Ekimov is that he never competed in the Olympics
> in the individual pursuit: in 1984 the Soviets boycotted. In 1988 he
> rode the team pursuit, an event that will remain in the Olys.
>
> - Show quoted text -
Z did you catch this? Team member 4 of that Russian team was murdered
http://velonews.com/article/98534/russian-cyclist-s-murderer-sentenced
z
>>> that the IOC would never consider.
>>> I understand that the event being considered to replace the pursuit,
>>> one of the most prestigious events in cycling history, is a new event
>>> some of whom regard it as a �joke.� Featuring five different races,
>>> including a 200-meter sprint and 1km time trial, the omnium has
>>> generated very little enthusiasm in the three years it has featured at
>>> the world track championships, whereas the pursuit has a 70-year
>>> legacy and is the only cross-over event truly accessible to both road
>>> and track racers.
>>> I am surprised that Mr. Turtur would even consider supporting the
>>> elimination of the individual pursuit from the Olympic Games. He was
>>> an accomplished track racer, and I still remember reporting his
>>> dominant victory in the individual pursuit at the 1982 Commonwealth
>>> years later at the Los Angeles Olympics. Mr. Turtur is also aware of
>>> the many riders whose racing careers have evolved from the pursuit
>>> event.
>>> Although it was not called the pursuit at the first modern Olympiad in
>>> 1896, there has always been a middle-distance cycling race in the
>>> Games for individuals and/or teams. The individual pursuit has been
>>> contested at world championships since 1939, and its popularity with
>>> the riders, coaches and crowds made it a natural to become an Olympic
>>> discipline for the first time at Tokyo in 1964.
>>> The inaugural champion, 24-year-old Jiri Daler, was the first cyclist
>>> in Czechoslovak history to win an Olympic gold medal. His victory
>>> greatly popularized cycling in his country, and five years later the
>>> world cycling championships were held in his hometown of Brno. Daler
>>> went on to become the first professional cyclist from eastern Europe
>>> when he signed with the French team Frimatic.
>>> Many leading pro racers in that era began their careers competing in
>>> the team and/or individual pursuit. They included Frenchmen Jacques
>>> Anquetil (the first man to win the Tour de France five times) and
>>> became the world pro road champion), and Britons Tom Simpson (another
>>> world road champion and multi-time classics winner) and Barry Hoban
>>> Mark Cavendish)
>>> Another legendary pursuit rider, Knut Knudsen, was the first Norwegian
>>> cyclist to win an Olympic gold medal, in 1972. He went on to become a
>>> Giro d�Italia. Other Olympians who progressed to the upper echelons of
>>> pro cycling were Alain Bondue of France, Gregor Braun of Germany, Tony
>>> Doyle of Britain, Viatcheslav Ekimov of Russia, Steve Hegg of the
>>> United States, and Hans-Henrik Oersted of Denmark.
>>> Olympic cycling was still restricted to amateur athletes in the
>>> world with his emphatic victory in the pursuit over the favored east
>>> Europeans. His aerodynamically designed carbon-fiber machine
>>> revolutionized the art of bicycle building, and Boardman went on to
>>> conquer the world hour record and set a speed record in the prologue
>>> time trial of the Tour de France. His breakthrough success in the 1992
>>> subsequent climb to the pinnacle of world cycling.
>>> the match sprint was contested; the individual pursuit was added in
>>> individual pursuit, including Germany�s Petra Rossner and Judith
>>> Arndt; Rebecca Twigg of the U.S.; Marion Clignet of France; Leontien
>>> Van Moorsel of the Netherlands; and Sarah Ulmer of New Zealand.
>>> The current Olympic pursuit champion, Rebecca Romero of Great Britain,
>>> has said this about the current proposals of the UCI Track Commission
>>> to add two specialist sprint disciplines for women (the team sprint
>>> should move towards equality between males and females in the medals
>>> available, but I just think this isn't equality in terms of sprint and
>>> endurance riders. You're taking away, essentially, with regards to the
>>> individual pursuit, one of the purest forms of competition that there
>>> The value of the Olympic pursuit competition has been emphasized by
>>> the experiences of the Beijing finalists Bradley Wiggins of Great
>>> Britain and Hayden Roulston of New Zealand. Wiggins, the gold medalist
>>> in both 2004 and 2008, this year went on to finish fourth overall at
>>> stars. As for Roulston, his performance in China has revived his
>>> career as a pro cyclist, and he made his Tour de France debut in 2009.
>>> Keeping the individual pursuit in the Olympics is vital to our sport.
>>> his gold medal at home; silver medalist Roulston will be back for New
>>> will be 22 in 2012; Australia has two strong contenders in 2009 worlds
>>> runner-up Jack Bobridge and former world junior champion Cameron
>>> just seven of the men who�d vie for pursuit gold in 2012.
>>> In the five decades that I have been reporting on cycling, the
>>> individual pursuit has remained one of the keystones of the sport. It
>>> is very healthy at the junior (under-19) level, with the number of
>>> entrants increasing impressively at recent world junior championships
>>> increase in two years.
>>> The first Olympic women�s cycling gold medalist and former world
>>> pursuit champion Connie Carpenter recently told me: �I did pursuit
>>> because all the great road riders did it � it was a place to showcase
>>> your pure power and form.� She is just one of hundreds of top cyclists
>>> who chose to contest the individual pursuit because of its pure
>>> athletic challenge.
>>> If the UCI and its Track Commission continues to recommend the
>>> elimination of the individual pursuit from the 2012 Olympics, it is
>>> making a monumental error. Please reconsider your decision on this
>>> historic event that is vital to the health and popularity of cycling
>>> throughout the world.
>>> Very sincerely,
>>> John Wilcockson
>>> Editor-at-Large, VeloNews
>> The funny thing about Ekimov is that he never competed in the Olympics
>> in the individual pursuit: in 1984 the Soviets boycotted. In 1988 he
>> rode the team pursuit, an event that will remain in the Olys.
>> (Guintautas Umaras rode and won the individual pursuit for the USSR.)- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Z did you catch this? Team member 4 of that Russian team was murdered
>
> http://velonews.com/article/98534/russian-cyclist-s-murderer-sentenced
>
Yeah, I read it when it happened and when the killer was sentenced.
Ben Trovato
> WilCOCKson is a jackass. Who gives a fuck about the pursuit in the
> Olympics except for fucked up gerbil wheel spinners.
>
The pursuit is a pure Olympic ("citius, altius, fortius") event. It
involves one competitor going faster than the others - no judges, no
points, no teams, no balls going into nets. But since the Olympics
have long since declined into panem et circenses (circuses for you,
bread for the OIC & its vassals), who indeed cares?
MagillaGorilla
The pursuit is a stupid event and the IOC should toss the entire
velodrome and all its stupid gerbil wheel events out the fucking door.
Magilla
Brad Anders
An additional reason why the IOC is gradually squeezing out track
cycling is the cost associated with the host city having to build a
velodrome. The London velodrome is estimated to cost $200M, for an
event that draws a limited number of spectators and generates little
TV audience.
The Olympics is about making money, and track cycling isn't cutting
it.
BTW, I went to several track events at the Atlanta Olympics. Other
than the sprint finals with Marty, I never saw the velodrome more than
about 1/2 full, and in comparison with other facilities, the Atlanta
track wasn't very impressive, certainly no $200M facility.
FWIW, unlike the frothing monkey, I like track cycling. But it's sure
drawing on a small and dwindling pool of talent. Unless something
changes, it's doomed
Brad Anders
MagillaGorilla
Track cycling should be banned from the Olympics not because it fails to
generate crowds or gate receipts at the Games, but because it's simply not a
sport with enough internationap participation. You cannot convince me that
having 1 or 2 velodromes per country satifies the definition of an
international sport.
Magilla
William Asher
I wonder if there are more countries with velodromes than there are
countries with marinas that hold regular Finn regattas.
--
Bill Asher
z
Your $200M figure is so crazy, especially for a 6000 seat facility, I
had to check for myself.
I found this:
http://www.nce.co.uk/2012-olympic-velodrome-move-cost-25m/1991495.article
It doesn't detail the ground contamination issue. Regardless, it's hard
to visualize getting a positive return on the investment.
It's easy to imagine they could have spent 20% of the budget on an
Olympic track, had an outstanding facility, and spent the remainder on
constructing another 10 very adequate indoor velodromes at $14 million
per. Except that wouldn't allow for 11 velodromes' operating expenses
and nobody is donating/budgeting for anything other than the one Olympic
velodrome. If they built it for less, there still wouldn't be the
surplus to build others.
On the other hand, London will have a fantastic cycling facility for
years and years to come. Can Atlanta say the same thing?
What is it about track racing that creates the sentiment of being a
red-headed stepchild? OTOH, who goes to swim meets except for family?
Tom Kunich
news:t02Nm.19019$ky1....@newsfe14.iad...
>
> What is it about track racing that creates the sentiment of being a
> red-headed stepchild? OTOH, who goes to swim meets except for family?
The problem with present day track racing is that most of them are out of
the way so they don't draw crowds except from real fans. If you put a good
one up in downtown San Francisco you'd have a good audience ALL the time.
z
Most tracks are in urban/suburban areas:
Redmond - The track in Seattle is in Redmond. Down the street from the
Microsoft HQ.
Alpenrose - All I know about Portland is that it is on a dairy farm.
(Point to Kunich)
Hellyer - Are San Jose and surroundings really that out of the way?
Encino - Closer to where Michael Jackson croaked than Neverland Ranch.
ADT - Pretty much in the middle of LA/Orange County
Balboa Park - If you know the roads of San Diego, you can be there in
less than 10 minutes from the airport. Do you know where the airport is
in San Diego?
7 Eleven - 5 minutes by bike or car from downtown Colorado Springs
Boulder - It's Boulder. A college town. It's also about 35 miles from
sports and cycling crazy Denver.
Alkek- Far western suburb of Houston. Traffic sucks, but Texans drive
everywhere (circular argument). A suburb is nothing in terms of driving
to them. Albuquerque, now that might be kinda far.
Superdrome - Northern suburb of Dallas. See above.
Baton Rouge - College town, port town, state capitol. Not sure what else
to say except that people probably didn't get housed at the velodrome
after Katrina.
Penrose Park - 5 miles from the Gateway Arch in St Louis
Northbrook - Northside of Chicago. Surrounded by 10,000,000 people in
the metro area
Washington Park - Kenosha. 40 miles from downtown Milwaukee (another
point for Tom). Then again, the Packers play 100 miles away from
downtown Milwaukee at Curly Lambeau Field.
Major Taylor - Near Northwest side of Indianapolis (6 miles from
downtown), 3 miles from a racing oval that draws 400,000 for a race the
day before Memorial Day
Bloomer Park - Northern suburb of Detroit. Stadium where the Pistons
play is actually slightly farther north (but at least adjacent to I-75)
Brian Piccolo Park - Suburban Ft Lauderdale. But for some reason, riders
(and fans) avoid the place like the plague
Dick Lane - 6.66 miles from downtown Atlanta. Maybe it's the creek that
runs through the middle of it.
Mellowdrome - Ok, another point for Tom. It's in Asheville, pop 400k.
But it's also in a very cycling crazy region of the country.
T-town - Draws fans and riders from Joisey and NYC. And Australia and
Argentina. Yet one of the least densely populated areas.
Kissena - 10 miles from Central Park. Surrounded by 26 thousand people.
Per square mile.
Population cheat sheet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas
Howard Kveck
> Tom Kunich wrote:
> > "z" <No...@not.ca> wrote in message
> > news:t02Nm.19019$ky1....@newsfe14.iad...
> >>
> >> What is it about track racing that creates the sentiment of being a
> >> red-headed stepchild? OTOH, who goes to swim meets except for family?
> >
> > The problem with present day track racing is that most of them are out
> > of the way so they don't draw crowds except from real fans. If you put a
> > good one up in downtown San Francisco you'd have a good audience ALL the
> > time.
> >
>
> Most tracks are in urban/suburban areas:
> Hellyer - Are San Jose and surroundings really that out of the way?
San Jose is a wierd place. It's spread out like a mini version of LA [1]. The area
near Hellyer is suburbs on one side and nothing much on the other. I used to ride
(about 30 minutes) over on Fridays to see the races but everyone else drove there.
There's no public transportation that is convenient. So it really is kind of out of
the way even though it's not that far from a big population center. I'd go as far as
saying it's surrounded by populated areas, but those areas near it (5 miles or so)
are all suburbs (i.e. low population density). If Hellyer was closer to central San
Jose, I'd say it'd have a better draw but still never have more than a smattering of
attendees.
[1] That's one reason I think SJ has a hard time having a nightclub "scene": it's so
spread out that people see the drive to a club downtown (or anywhere not quite
nearby) as an impediment to going and there isn't public transportation that runs
late. It's always strange to go see a band that fills clubs in San Francisco but
draws a tiny crowd only 60 miles south.
--
tanx,
Howard
Caught playing safe
It's a bored game
remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
Matt Chambers
>
> Track cycling should be banned from the Olympics not because it fails to
> generate crowds or gate receipts at the Games, but because it's simply not
> a
> sport with enough internationap participation. You cannot convince me
> that
> having 1 or 2 velodromes per country satifies the definition of an
> international sport.
>
> Magilla
>
Golf is making a return to the Olympics.
It couldn't possibly be money, crowds or gate receipts.
It must be all the international competitors.
Golf is so much more of an international sport than track cycling.
The Iraqis will be great at getting out of the sand traps.
Brad Anders
> Your $200M figure is so crazy, especially for a 6000 seat facility, I
> had to check for myself.
>
> I found this:http://www.nce.co.uk/2012-olympic-velodrome-move-cost-25m/1991495.art...
Google says 105M Pounds Sterling is $175M USD, so my figure was high
(I'd seen 110M Pounds Sterling -> $183M USD), rounding up to $200M
isn't fair, sorry.
At $175M for 6000 seats, that's ~$29K a seat.
Brad Anders
Scott
Sounds like stimulus math to me.
cur...@the-md-russells.org
Damn - worse than what the University of North Carolina supporters
paid for their basketball seats.
P.Chisholm
The difference is that women can compete equally with men in sailing.
This is Olympic Title 9 in action. Sailing, now THAT'S an exciting
spectator sport....ZZZZZZ.
Amit Ghosh
>
> The problem with present day track racing is that most of them are out of
> the way so they don't draw crowds except from real fans. If you put a good
> one up in downtown San Francisco you'd have a good audience ALL the time.
dumbass,
if you think the 'problem' with track racing is that tracks are too
far for most people you are delusional.
do people drive to the local golf course to watch regular schmoes play
a golf tournament ?
no one, not even racers want to watch local level racers it is just
not part of the culture.
people that play golf pay big fees to maintain and operate the
facility, the big dumb fantasy of cyclists is that 'sponsors' and
'audience' will bear the costs of their playtime - maybe in a few
exceptional cases, but not in 99% of the world.
Bob Schwartz
> The difference is that women can compete equally with men in sailing.
> This is Olympic Title 9 in action. Sailing, now THAT'S an exciting
> spectator sport....ZZZZZZ.
Another big difference is that there are no venue construction
costs in sailing.
Bob Schwartz
Susan Walker
Another big difference is that sailing attracts a lot of sponsorship money.
Anton Berlin
Some canadians bought the 80k seat in detroit for about the cost of 20
seats.
Anton Berlin
We will put giant sails with advertising on each rider. Let's see
those cats break 6 minutes after that.
Michael Press
<1ed38af1-83f0-4bee...@z41g2000yqz.googlegroups.com>,
Anton Berlin <truth...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Well then what event do you propose for cyclists that can't sprint,
> can't corner, can't climb, don't like lifiting weights, have no
> endurance and are afraid of crashing?
Recumbent drag race on beach sand.
--
Michael Press
Michael Press
<5d0a5257-3685-4dfd...@k13g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
"P.Chisholm" <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
> The difference is that women can compete equally with men in sailing.
> This is Olympic Title 9 in action. Sailing, now THAT'S an exciting
> spectator sport....ZZZZZZ.
It is if you have sailed.
You can learn to read the
wind and water; develop
a sense for wind shifts.
Best enjoyed at the venue,
preferably on the water.
--
Michael Press
Donald Munro
> We will put giant sails with advertising on each rider. Let's see
> those cats break 6 minutes after that.
You'd better ask Magilla to mount your brakes for when you're going
downhill with the wind (or ask resident sailing expert Press to teach
you how to tack).
Anton Berlin
Putting brakes on front or the rear of the seatstays on every
trackbike would raise the fan base. Amerikans love the blood sport.
Donald Munro
> Putting brakes on front or the rear of the seatstays on every
> trackbike would raise the fan base. Amerikans love the blood sport.
Ah, Track bikes. Ok, do you really expect me to keep up with rbr thread
context; I don't have enough virtual memory for that. Anyway if you want
to make it interesting put the brakes and freewheel on the bike ridden
by the squirreliest or fredliest rider and not on any of the others.
MagillaGorilla
Hanging a diaper on a boat to make it go is for faggots. You better stop using
tampons and start shopping in the men's department.
Magilla
Michael Press
MagillaGorilla <mag...@sandiegozoo.com> wrote:
> Michael Press wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <5d0a5257-3685-4dfd...@k13g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
> > "P.Chisholm" <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Nov 18, 11:38Â am, William Asher <gcn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > MagillaGorilla wrote:
> > > > > Brad Anders wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >> On Nov 17, 11:41Â am, MagillaGorilla <magi...@sandiegozoo.com> wrote:
> > > > >> > Anton Berlin wrote:
> > > > >> > > Well then what event do you propose for cyclists that can't
> > > > >> > > sprint, can't corner, can't climb, don't like lifiting weights,
> > > > >> > > have no endurance and are afraid of crashing?
> > > >
> > > > >> > > LOL
> > > >
> > > > >> > Track racing doesn't belong in the Olympics. Â It's a gay-ass sport
> > > > >> > and has no sustainability outside of the Olympics. Â How many
> > > > >> > athletes make a livable wage doing track cycling in the United
> > > > >> > States...maybe 20? There's only like 5 fucking velodromes in the
> > > > >> > entire United States...imagine if there were only 5 baseball fields
> > > > >> > in the United States and then tried to sell baseball as an national
> > > > >> > pastime? Â It doesn't pass the laugh test.
> > > >
> > > > >> > How many velodromes are there in Africa or China or Russia....like
> > > > >> > 2 or 3 in each country? Â Ask yourself how many swimming pools or
> > > > >> > running tracks there are in those same countries (hundreds if not
> > > > >> > thousands...one at every high school and country). Â Velodromes have
> > > > >> > no such prominence and are this nothing more then gerbil wheels.
> > > >
> > > > >> > Track cycling is for fucked up people who aspire to be gerbils. Â I
> > > > >> > hope the town council in Allentown votes one day to bulldoze
> > > > >> > Trexlertown and turn it into a goddamn parking lot or a strip
> > > > >> > mall....something that can better serve the public than a gerbil
> > > > >> > wheel full of doped-up gerbils (and hamsters).
> > > >
> > > > >> > I think curling is a more legitimate sport than track cycling.
> > > >
> > > > >> > How do you like them apples?
> > > >
> > > > >> > Magilla
> > > >
> > > > >> An additional reason why the IOC is gradually squeezing out track
> > > > >> cycling is the cost associated with the host city having to build a
> > > > >> velodrome. The London velodrome is estimated to cost $200M, for an
> > > > >> event that draws a limited number of spectators and generates little
> > > > >> TV audience.
> > > >
> > > > >> The Olympics is about making money, and track cycling isn't cutting
> > > > >> it.
> > > >
> > > > >> BTW, I went to several track events at the Atlanta Olympics. Other
> > > > >> than the sprint finals with Marty, I never saw the velodrome more
> > > > >> than about 1/2 full, and in comparison with other facilities, the
> > > > >> Atlanta track wasn't very impressive, certainly no $200M facility.
> > > >
> > > > >> FWIW, unlike the frothing monkey, I like track cycling. But it's sure
> > > > >> drawing on a small and dwindling pool of talent. Unless something
> > > > >> changes, it's doomed
> > > >
> > > > >> Brad Anders
> > > >
> > > > > Track cycling should be banned from the Olympics not because it fails
> > > > > to generate crowds or gate receipts at the Games, but because it's
> > > > > simply not a sport with enough internationap participation. Â You
> > > > > cannot convince me that having 1 or 2 velodromes per country satifies
> > > > > the definition of an international sport.
> > > >
> > > > I wonder if there are more countries with velodromes than there are
> > > > countries with marinas that hold regular Finn regattas. Â
> > >
> > > The difference is that women can compete equally with men in sailing.
> > > This is Olympic Title 9 in action. Sailing, now THAT'S an exciting
> > > spectator sport....ZZZZZZ.
> >
> > It is if you have sailed.
> > You can learn to read the
> > wind and water; develop
> > a sense for wind shifts.
> > Best enjoyed at the venue,
> > preferably on the water.
>
> Hanging a diaper on a boat to make it go is for faggots. You better stop using
> tampons and start shopping in the men's department.
Two words: Ermenegildo Zegna.
--
Michael Press