More For Lance Tifosi to Rationalize Away
B. Lafferty
Ron Jongen, a former soigneur with the US Postal team until 2000, has
expressed further allegations concerning the 1999 Tour de France, and
possible doping practices within the American squad. Armstrong's masseur
told Dutch newspaper Limburgs Dagblad that he was present when team director
Johan Bruyneel made comments about the riders' hematocrit levels before the
1999 Tour de France prologue.
At the last team meeting before the race, the 42-year old Dutchman from
Kerkrade recalled, "Bruyneel said: they're just under 50 [Jonathan Vaughters
noted this too - ed.]. When he saw that I heard what he said, he put his
finger on his lips immediately: I wasn't supposed to say anything about it."
While Jongen said that he was still on good terms with Armstrong (having
e-mail contact as recently as at the 2005 Tour de France), the former
masseur also talked about "strange, very strange things that went on in
France that summer."
Jongen also recalled that three Spanish doctors visited the team's hotels in
a green station wagon. "It was the only car that wasn't branded US Postal,"
the former soigneur said. "All the team cars parked in front of the hotels,
but this car always parked at the rear entrances. The strange thing was that
these doctors always slept on another floor," Jongen added, also saying that
these doctors followed the team also at the Vuelta, but that they used the
main entrance then.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2005/aug05/aug28news
Robert Chung
> Ex-USPS soigneur speaks
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2005/aug05/aug28news
Brian, if you're linking in stories from cyclingnews, why didn't you link
in this one?
"'No evidence of EPO' during Vaughters time at Postal"
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2005/vaughters_1999
Just wonderin'.
RicodJour
Blind Spot,
You left out the last paragraph.
"But former USPS team manager and current Discovery Channel team
manager Johan Bruyneel denied the soigneur's statements. "Mr. Jongen
has a rich imagination," Bruyneel countered. "There was one doctor in
our team, no-one else, and I never saw that green station wagon - it's
all nonsense. And I never said anything that should stay secret."
I'm sure you were just trying to save bandwidth with your editing.
R
B. Lafferty
"Robert Chung" <m...@address.invalid> wrote in message
news:3nd36u...@individual.net...
There is a link in the piece I quoted that goes to their Vaughter's
interview.
B. Lafferty
"RicodJour" <rico...@worldemail.com> wrote in message
news:1125211035.0...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
My error. For those of us who have read LA Confidential we know that the
doctor Johan is talking about is the former Once physician who Spanish
television filmed in the doctor's hotel room during a race showing a number
of illegal substances in his possession.
Anyone who tells what they know form their postal days is either called an
outright liar, a former disgruntled employee or a psychotic imagining
things. There will be more people speaking out now that the lid is off the
wizard's can.
RonSonic
Or as they find out how much money they can make selling books and interviews to
people like you.
"Uh, yeah. I saw lance on the morning of the prologue and he....whatever."
Ron
B. Lafferty
"RonSonic" <rons...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:que3h1t8h09m0rqp6...@4ax.com...
Emma O'Reiley received no payment. Prentis Steffen, AFAIK, received no
payment. Stephen Swart, AFIK, received no payment. Do you have any
published facts to support an allegation that Jongen received any money for
telling what he knows? In other words, it appears that what you're saying
is nothing more than bullshit. Have a nice day.
Tom Kunich
news:689Qe.3010$_84....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Ex-USPS soigneur speaks
> Ron Jongen, a former soigneur with the US Postal team until 2000, has
> expressed further allegations concerning the 1999 Tour de France, and
> possible doping practices within the American squad. Armstrong's masseur
> told Dutch newspaper Limburgs Dagblad that he was present when team
> director Johan Bruyneel made comments about the riders' hematocrit levels
> before the 1999 Tour de France prologue.
Lafferty the Klown hasn't gotten around to explaining to us how Lance used
EPO for his slowest Tour win and no EPO for the rest of them.
Maybe Brian the Scion is telling us that EPO actually makes you slower?
Tom Kunich
news:1125211035.0...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> our team, no-one else, and I never saw that green station wagon - it's
> all nonsense. And I never said anything that should stay secret."
Does ANYONE believe that hc wasn't on everyone's mind at the 1999 Tour?
Vaughters was just being held up as someone that probably never doped and
yet consider - Vaughters was supposed to be Lance's #1 mountain man. If
ANYONE was going to dope you'd expect it to be him. And wasn't Vaughters
himself worried about his hc?
I've explained this before - my hc is normally 48%. On days when I'm badly
dehydrated I'm sure that I'd test over 50%. This is why the TdF takes the
blood samples first thing in the morning. But what if you were normally
right on the line? There would be plenty of times in the Tour when you'd not
recover enough and show over 50%.
And as was pointed out, Lance bought new instruments for the UCI when it
became clear that the one's they had were rating EVERYONE higher than other
instruments which were more accurate.
It is sheer stupidity to think that every Director wasn't worried about hc
tests coming positive if for no other reasons than the one's I just covered.
Tom Kunich
>
> Emma O'Reiley received no payment. Prentis Steffen, AFAIK, received no
> payment. Stephen Swart, AFIK, received no payment. Do you have any
> published facts to support an allegation that Jongen received any money
> for telling what he knows? In other words, it appears that what you're
> saying is nothing more than bullshit. Have a nice day.
NOTE: Lafferty says "AFAIK" but speaks affirmatively.
Carl Sundquist
Tom Kunich wrote:
> Does ANYONE believe that hc wasn't on everyone's mind at the 1999 Tour?
> Vaughters was just being held up as someone that probably never doped and
> yet consider - Vaughters was supposed to be Lance's #1 mountain man. If
> ANYONE was going to dope you'd expect it to be him. And wasn't Vaughters
> himself worried about his hc?
>
IIRC, Vaughters has/had an exemption for a natural hct that exceeds 50.
Robert Chung
Ah. So what you're sayin' is, you were showing modest restraint.
trg
4grQe.3745$z2....@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Average tour speed is a meaningless when it come to determining if a single
rider; even the maillot jaune, doped.
>
>
MagillaGorilla
Vaughters exemption is a joke. The guy lives at fucking altitude, which
is already an artificial manipulation of one's hemotocrit. Why should
he get an exemption for living at altitude?
In order to justify Vaughter's exemption, you'd also have to give
exemptions to people who use altitude tents.
Second, Vaughters says he never tested over 50% except at the '99 Tour -
yet he claims his normal hematocrit is over 50 (Vaughters exemption
allows him to go to 54).
---------------
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2005/vaughters_1999
"I'd never tested (at a race) above 50 percent, except before the start
of the '99 Tour," he said. "I told the team doctor 'don't worry, I've
got a certificate, I've got a hall-pass for this'," he recalled. "But
the doctor said it wasn't me they were worried about, it was that the
whole team was very close (to the 50 percent limit)."
---------------
Why was the whole team near 50? Considering the average hematocrit of a
twenty-something male, Vaughters appears to give quotes that the team
could very well have been using EPO. After all, what else would cause
nearly the entire team to push 50?
Did "The Professor" ever ask himself that question?
Thanks,
Magilla
gds
I am 60 years old, live at modest altitude (2,600') and have a natural
hematocrit of 48. While I feel that I am fit I am certainly not a world
class athlete. I have no background that would allow me to understand
what the 50 level means in scientific terms but it certainly isn't out
of the bounds of what I see.
In general the problem with proxy measures is just that- they are
proxies and not direct measures. For example I also have a BMI of 25.5
making me modestly "overweight"- although that doesn't seem to jive
well with my measured 11% bf.
k.papai
used
EPO for his slowest Tour win and no EPO for the rest of them.
Maybe Brian the Scion is telling us that EPO actually makes you slower?
"
You're definitely right about that -- and also, why weren't Lance's
other B samples also positive for EPO in '99? This entire '99 innuendo
on Lance is all a heaping, stinking pile of B.S. It's from a French
sports magazine. They are ALL jealous of someone like Armstrong.
Sometimes people cannot see the forest for the trees.
-Ken
Ryan Cousineau
"gds" <gary...@msn.com> wrote:
> MagillaGorilla wrote:
> >
> > http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2005/vaughters_1999
> >
> > "I'd never tested (at a race) above 50 percent, except before the start
> > of the '99 Tour," he said. "I told the team doctor 'don't worry, I've
> > got a certificate, I've got a hall-pass for this'," he recalled. "But
> > the doctor said it wasn't me they were worried about, it was that the
> > whole team was very close (to the 50 percent limit)."
> >
> > ---------------
> >
> > Why was the whole team near 50? Considering the average hematocrit of a
> > twenty-something male, Vaughters appears to give quotes that the team
> > could very well have been using EPO. After all, what else would cause
> > nearly the entire team to push 50?
> >
> > Did "The Professor" ever ask himself that question?
The point was that everyone in the Tour was not only testing high, they
were testing fairly consistently high relative to typical results from
other tests. I'm leaning towards "bad equipment" and not "everyone was
more juiced than usual" as an explanation.
> I am 60 years old, live at modest altitude (2,600') and have a natural
> hematocrit of 48. While I feel that I am fit I am certainly not a world
> class athlete. I have no background that would allow me to understand
> what the 50 level means in scientific terms but it certainly isn't out
> of the bounds of what I see.
>
> In general the problem with proxy measures is just that- they are
> proxies and not direct measures. For example I also have a BMI of 25.5
> making me modestly "overweight"- although that doesn't seem to jive
> well with my measured 11% bf.
Good gravy! You have the perfect physiological specifications to be a
world-class (age-group) endurance weightlifter.
Livehigh,
--
Ryan Cousineau rcou...@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
Bill C
Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>
> Good gravy! You have the perfect physiological specifications to be a
> world-class (age-group) endurance weightlifter.
>
> Livehigh,
>
> --
> Ryan Cousineau rcou...@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
> "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
> to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
much better option and much less hazardous to his health. Gym rats are
THE most brain damaged types on the planet. I used to think it was cool
to have to scarf down half a dozen tylenol to be able to get out of bed
and walk, because it meant that I really "fried" my legs, and now
they'd grow. They did grow quite nicely, but I'm just about to turn 40
and on the surgery a year plan due to trying to compete with the 'roid
freaks. Pot Belge was probably healthier than the shit your average
regional competitor is doing today, and yes they have a "drug testing"
program too. Far as I can tell it's to confirm that the people who
"lock-up" or drop dead on stage are dopers, and not much else.
Bill C
Patricio Carlos
You don't use Epo every day. It is only detectable in urine for ~2 - 3
days. Thus you would not expect all tests to be positive.
It is like drug checks on an occasional cocaine user. 6 out of 17 is
bad. The negative 11 do not equate to no cocaine use.
Plus we don't even know yet if the other 11 samples from LA were
amongst those that were tested. (Not that it makes any difference.) If
the story is legit, 6 positives is bad.
Kyle Legate
his samples to test positive he would have to take EPO every day.
The results make perfect sense.
Robert Chung
> They are ALL jealous of someone like Armstrong.
> Sometimes people cannot see the forest for the trees.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/f6ef329b617a8e52
Ryan Cousineau
"Bill C" <trito...@aol.com> wrote:
> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
[the subject is a 60 yo male with a natural hct of 48, 11% bf, and BMI
25.5]
I think the brain-damagedness of gym rats is mostly expressed by the
fact that they think of cyclists as the sophisticated dopers.
Also, I'm a little disturbed if the phrase "endurance weightlifter" made
any sense, given that it was meant as a joke on the poster's unusual
combination of outlier endurance-athlete characteristics and bodybuilder
BMI/fat numbers. In other words, he's too big to be a cyclist, and too
good at endurance exercise to remain a bodybuilder, and he's 60, which
is also funny. Because old people are funny.
As for your points about bodybuilding, well, put that as another reason
why I'm glad I went with beer-league (Gatorade-league?) cycling instead
of whey-league (or whatever the heck gym rats drink) bodybuilding.
Also, I'm vain enough for leg-shaving, but not vain enough for tanning
beds.
Still remember when 30 seemed old; feeling less funny now that I'm past
30...
Livedrunk -- oh yeah, I found out that you can set a minimum alcohol
consumption goal on Fitday.com!
http://www.fitday.com/WebFit/PublicJournals.html?Owner=rcousine&Year=2005
&Month=7&Day=29
Out of respect for a teammate, I won't publish the URL for a certain Cat
2 racer's Saturday, which combined the same 3-hour hard training ride
which I did that day with a bachelor party (poutine, a lot of drinking,
assorted other bad food choices, 5700 kcal consumed on the day).
The scary thing was Fitday said he was onlyd 250 kcal over his calorie
burn for the day,
Jonathan v.d. Sluis
news:1125357450.7...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Right, the next time someone tests positive for EPO, they should just let
the guy finish the tour and do some more tests on him, to see if any come up
negative, don't you think? At least one negative test would prove his
innocence beyond doubt by your logic.
Steven L. Sheffield
1125357450.7...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com, "k.papai"
<kenp...@gmail.com> wrote:
It is well established that EPO clears the system in 2-3 days. Take EPO,
test positive, test positive, test negative, test negative, test negative,
take more EPO, test positive, test positive, test negative, test negative.
That's not conjecture, that's the way it works.
What I find most interesting is that the positive tests were right on the
most crucial stages ...
EPO is not a miracle drug. It does not work right away. You don't take EPO
and your Hct goes up 4% overnight.
If somoneone was doping and taking EPO mid-race to target certain stages, I
would expect the positive tests to occur a few days BEFORE each of the
crucial stages, not on the days of the crucial stages.
--
Steven L. Sheffield
stevens at veloworks dot com
bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea eye tee why you ti ay aitch
aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
double-yew double-ewe dot veloworks dot com [foreword] slash
gds
Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> Good gravy! You have the perfect physiological specifications to be a
> world-class (age-group) endurance weightlifter.
>
which is most certainly a combination of endurance and power--at least
if you care to win :-)
k.papai
are throbbing so loudly.
-DA74 "
You are one sick, slow asshole DA.
-Ken
k.papai
stages, I
would expect the positive tests to occur a few days BEFORE each of the
crucial stages, not on the days of the crucial stages. "
Nearly EXACTLY my point S.S.
Thanks, Ken.
k.papai
1999 is NOT 2005. (today's testing of 2005 samples is no way
comparable to testing 5 year old B samples NOT EVER to be be revealed
as to whose sample they were as well as the validity of the testing as
well as you do not take EPO just prior to the big event). L'equipe and
all similar: yellow journalism, pond scum dirty rotten filthy stinking
no-good maggot liars.
-Ken
k.papai
RicodJour
> k.papai wrote:
> > You are one sick, slow asshole DA.
>
> Can you expound on your post for me? Are you commenting on my sphincter
> function and/or health? And if not, and this is an ad-hominem attack
> please have some respect for yourself and put a little more craft into
> your retorts.
Symptoms: Incessant references to rectal function and phalli in all
posts RBR
Diagnosis: Early toilet training, not getting any.
No charge for the professional consultation. I'm big in the pro bono
world.
R
PS Ad hominem is not hyphenated.
Ryan Cousineau
"gds" <gary...@msn.com> wrote:
Interesting. How long is a karate match? I assumed it was not really
long enough to benefit from serious endurance characteristics.
But then, if it's comparable to boxing, well, I'm pretty sure boxers do
need their aerobic fitness...
-RjC, learned everything he knows about karate from Ralph Macchio and
from Lance Gibson's local Pankraton gym, where his logo is of a UFC-type
kneeling atop and punching the crap out of a guy in a karate uniform.
Carl Sundquist
DA74 wrote:
> k.papai wrote:
> > You are one sick, slow asshole DA.
>
> Can you expound on your post for me? Are you commenting on my sphincter
> function and/or health? And if not, and this is an ad-hominem attack
> please have some respect for yourself and put a little more craft into
> your retorts.
>
> DA74
Papai has a thing about stuff in the scatological realm.
RW
"RicodJour" <rico...@worldemail.com> wrote in message
news:1125463448.7...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Donald Munro
> Dude, you are seriously taking "nerd" to a new level with these posts...
gds
Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>
> Interesting. How long is a karate match? I assumed it was not really
> long enough to benefit from serious endurance characteristics.
>
> But then, if it's comparable to boxing, well, I'm pretty sure boxers do
> need their aerobic fitness...
Individual matches can be quite short. But in a tournament one will
have multiple matches, often with little time between. So you often see
talented but relatively unconditioned fighters winning in early rounds.
They are never around at the end. Fitness is a very key component of
successful fighting. As with boxing and wrestling the conditioning
includes training to rapidly recover between rounds and/or matches. At
the end of a hard round my HR would easily be up over 160. By the start
of the next round (one minute later) it would usually be back down
under 100.
And training is something else. I would often fight 15-20 2 minute back
to back fights in training. I have had over 50 back to back rounds.
That amounts to about 2 hours of fighting in just over that amount of
elapsed time. Quite a morning.
Most fighters do a lot of running, rope skipping and/or other highly
aerobic exercize. In fact for me, that is how I got into cycling as my
hips and back could not sustain the running mileage I needed to
maintain aerobic fitness.