Corestates mens early results
Pete Ruckelshaus
Winner, Massimino Lelli (IT) - Saeco
1st American - George Hincapie
Very fast race, completed in 5:56 or so for the fastest Core States
Philly ever. Beautiful weather here in Philly, which made the race
especially fast and enjoyable.
Pete
Bjoern Haake
Pete Ruckelshaus <mud...@bikindex.com> writes:
>Winner, Massimino Lelli (IT) - Saeco
>1st American - George Hincapie
Hincapie was disqualified, Bowen won the US title
--
Bjoern Haake
Pete Ruckelshaus
Bjoern Haake wrote:
>
> Pete Ruckelshaus <mud...@bikindex.com> writes:
>
> >Winner, Massimino Lelli (IT) - Saeco
> >1st American - George Hincapie
>
> Hincapie was disqualified, Bowen won the US title
Yes, I found out later. I was literally typing the original message as
the riders were crossing the line.
Pete
Jeff Potter
No one has mentioned any details yet that I've seen.
What happened? Thanks.
--
JP
*****
Jeff Potter
j...@glpbooks.SPLAMBLOCK.com--to reply delete 'SPAMBLOCK' from address!
**"Out Your Backdoor": Magazine of Cheap Adventure and DIY Culture
http://www.glpbooks.com/oyb, $8/4, 4686 Meridian Rd., Williamston MI 48895
**GLP: #1 Reviews for FE/EIT & PE Engineering Exams http://www.glpbooks.com
None of your business
In article <33A803...@glpbooks.SPAMBLOCK.com>,
Jeff Potter <j...@glpbooks.SPAMBLOCK.com> wrote:
>No one has mentioned any details yet that I've seen.
>What happened? Thanks.
To make a long story short, he took pace off his team car for well over 2
minutes. This was after a flat in the final 8-9 miles. It allowed him to
get back into the lead break.
Scott
--
_/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _ / _/_/_/
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/
_/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/ Breakfast of Champions
_/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/
Andrew Albright
In article <5o8riv$h...@universe.digex.net>, spa...@universe.digex.net
(None of your business) wrote:
> In article <33A803...@glpbooks.SPAMBLOCK.com>,
> Jeff Potter <j...@glpbooks.SPAMBLOCK.com> wrote:
> >No one has mentioned any details yet that I've seen.
> >What happened? Thanks.
>
> To make a long story short, he took pace off his team car for well over 2
> minutes. This was after a flat in the final 8-9 miles. It allowed him to
> get back into the lead break.
And that would of course be the "Officials" side of the story. The group
of individuals that, we as racers, owe everything too. The head god, I
mean official, in this case is Shawn Farrell. The motorcycle official
appears to remain in hiding.
But I want to personally thank the whole lot of them for everything. In
particular, thank you for screwing up the Natl Champ Jersey for a year.
Here are some relevant quotes:
Bart Bowen "I can't really say I'm excited...It's a tainted situation.
This is not the way I wanted to win the jersey....Maybe this is the year
that the jersey just stays in Philly. It's really hard to put it on."
Davis Phinney's comments during the race when someone flatted: Something
to effect of:
If he[the rider who flatted] can stay in the caravan then he will be all
right.
Meaning that he can draft back up to the peleton.
This coming from the man who should know the rules.
None of your business
In article <albrigh-1806...@fgs3.med.upenn.edu>,
Andrew Albright <alb...@mail.med.upenn.nospam.edu> wrote:
>In article <5o8riv$h...@universe.digex.net>, spa...@universe.digex.net
>(None of your business) wrote:
>
>> In article <33A803...@glpbooks.SPAMBLOCK.com>,
>> Jeff Potter <j...@glpbooks.SPAMBLOCK.com> wrote:
>> >No one has mentioned any details yet that I've seen.
>> >What happened? Thanks.
>>
>> To make a long story short, he took pace off his team car for well over 2
>> minutes. This was after a flat in the final 8-9 miles. It allowed him to
>> get back into the lead break.
>
>And that would of course be the "Officials" side of the story. The group
>of individuals that, we as racers, owe everything too. The head god, I
>mean official, in this case is Shawn Farrell. The motorcycle official
>appears to remain in hiding.
What do you want, his email address so you can flame the shit out of him?
You want a name? Tag number? When was the last time you had the officials
names from a major race! There job is to insure a safe and fair playing
field for competetive bicycle racing. Motor pacing behind a team car is
NOT a fair playing field.
>But I want to personally thank the whole lot of them for everything. In
>particular, thank you for screwing up the Natl Champ Jersey for a year.
>
The promoter could possibley be blamed for awarding the jersey before the
officials produced the OFFICIAL results!
>Here are some relevant quotes:
>
>Bart Bowen "I can't really say I'm excited...It's a tainted situation.
>This is not the way I wanted to win the jersey....Maybe this is the year
>that the jersey just stays in Philly. It's really hard to put it on."
It is not his fault, it is the fault of the rider and director who
committed the infraction!
>
>Davis Phinney's comments during the race when someone flatted: Something
>to effect of:
>If he[the rider who flatted] can stay in the caravan then he will be all
>right.
He wasnt IN the caravan, he was paced back TO the caravan by his team car!
>Meaning that he can draft back up to the peleton.
>This coming from the man who should know the rules.
Becuase you race in a pro peleton does not neccessarily mean you know the
rules, it means you are a good rider. The officials in question are all
National or Interational Commisaires (sp). I believe THEY know the rules!
Thomas N. Lewis
Andrew Albright writes:
>spa...@universe.digex.net wrote:
>> Jeff Potter wrote:
>> >No one has mentioned any details yet that I've seen.
>> >What happened? Thanks.
>>
>> To make a long story short, he took pace off his team car for well over 2
>> minutes. This was after a flat in the final 8-9 miles. It allowed him to
>> get back into the lead break.
>
>And that would of course be the "Officials" side of the story. The group
>of individuals that, we as racers, owe everything too. The head god, I
>mean official, in this case is Shawn Farrell. The motorcycle official
>appears to remain in hiding.
>particular, thank you for screwing up the Natl Champ Jersey for a year.
For another opinion, check out Eddy B's book.
Pacing a rider back to the group is a no lose situation.
1. If the team does pace and gets caught, the rider loses. (I remember
reading on r.b.r. a couple years ago that this team [pre-USPS] was
busted for having a rider attached to the team car).
2. If the team doesn't pace, the rider still loses.
3. If the team does pace and doesn't get caught, the rider may win.
Officials shouldn't be blamed for making a correct call. Matter of fact,
that's their job.
- Tom
Dave MzDC
To all of you arm chair quarterbacks who are all coming down on the side
of the official line on this one, how many of you were actually there to
observe what happened?
I haven't heard of anyone in the race or associated with racing (team
directors, other officials, etc.) who believe that what they did to George
was just and correct. There is more to this story than meets the eye.
Don't pass judgement on this one just yet.
Dave Mruz
TMaloney1
Dear RBR'oids:
I WAS there...in fact, I was in Com 1's car all during the race. So first
of all, I will commend Shawn Farrell for an excellent job of officiating;
in fact the entire team of officials deserves to be commended for their
excellent work all week from Thrift Drug to CoreStates. I have seen many
official crews in action in intl level races in North America since 1985
and this team did an excellent job. Clear, concise and fair, IMHO. And
Farrell was very much in control of the CoreStates race all day.
Secondly, Hincapie was dq'ed for PROLONGED drafting. This distinction was
important; it is generally frowned upon but usually allowed for a rider
who had a flat to be paced back to the tail end of the caravan, not to the
field. Maybe for 30-45 seconds and if spotted, a fine can be levied. Its
really up to the officials discretion as to how they interpret the rules.
Eyewitness reports from many team managers, Comm 2 & motor refs saw USPS
team manager Eddy B drafting George and driving agressively from just
before the feed zone, along Kelly Drive and up & over Lemon Hill. 2 miles
plus of drafting in the last 9 miles of a championships really left the
Chief Commisaire little choice but to throw the book, especially after
Eddy B was repeatedly warned by Comm 2 on race radio and verbally by
motorcycle officials. And that the prolonged drafting allowed Hincapie to
rejoin and win the US title in the sprint.
Certainly it was very unfortunate that the officials did not communicate
their decision sooner, they did take the time to review this carefully as
it was a major one. Most unfortunate was that Eddy B chose to make a
flagrant violation of the rules that caused his rider to be dq'ed.
Tim Maloney
Qcwpete
tmal...@aol.com (TMaloney1) writes:
"<HTML>Dear RBR'oids:
I WAS there...in fact, I was in Com 1's car all during the race. So
Eyewitness reports from many team managers, Comm 2 & motor refs saw USPS
team manager Eddy B drafting George and driving agressively from just
before the feed zone, along Kelly Drive and up & over Lemon Hill. 2 miles
plus of drafting in the last 9 miles of a championships really left the
Chief Commisaire little choice"
I was also there, Tim. In the feed zone all day working for one of the
teams (not Postals). I most definately did see Hincapie ride through the
feed zone after his flat. He was about 30 sec down on the caravan and NOT
being motorpaced.
I don't know about the warnings from com 2. I do know that the motor ref
is notorious for bad, overly reactionary calls. I do know that George
wasn't paced continuously over the entire distance you describe.
I would like a recreated sequence by the officials to be made public on
this issue. I feel the sport desreves it and so does George.
If it was a mistake made in the heat of battle by Eddie B and GH, OK.
But if it was an overreaction by a zealous official, then, shame, shame,
shame on them.
Peter Durdaller
Phila, Pa
None of your business
In article <19970618233...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
Qcwpete <qcw...@aol.com> wrote:
> tmal...@aol.com (TMaloney1) writes:
>
>I was also there, Tim. In the feed zone all day working for one of the
>teams (not Postals). I most definately did see Hincapie ride through the
>feed zone after his flat. He was about 30 sec down on the caravan and NOT
>being motorpaced.
>
>I don't know about the warnings from com 2. I do know that the motor ref
>is notorious for bad, overly reactionary calls. I do know that George
>wasn't paced continuously over the entire distance you describe.
>
>I would like a recreated sequence by the officials to be made public on
>this issue. I feel the sport desreves it and so does George.
Gee, so we can have a little net flame war?
>
>If it was a mistake made in the heat of battle by Eddie B and GH, OK.
>
>But if it was an overreaction by a zealous official, then, shame, shame,
>shame on them.
>
It was witnessed by an official in a car as well as an official on a motor.
Seems to me it was the first of you above scenarios.
Jeff Potter
None of your business wrote:
[]
> field for competetive bicycle racing. Motor pacing behind a team car is
> NOT a fair playing field.
This is road racing, not mt-bike racing. Wouldn't a REALLY fair field
include poor Georgie changing his own tire? "Gotta finish on your original
wheels!" Pro road racing rules realize that the GAME is the thing, NOT
the mechanicals. Their rules REDUCE the impact of mechanicals as much
as possible. That's why you can get FREE LAPS! Duh! ("Hey, not fair, that
guy didn't ride as far!")
> >Bart Bowen "I can't really say I'm excited...It's a tainted situation.
> >This is not the way I wanted to win the jersey....Maybe this is the year
> >that the jersey just stays in Philly. It's really hard to put it on."
Bart knows what he's talking about. Why not give him and Georgie
and the other riders more credit? Wouldn't it be 'funny' if the whole
peloton proceeded to treat this year's jersey like a rag? Would that
tell you anything if no one wanted anything to do with it? Would
you still insist 'say, mister, he broke da rule.'
> It is not his fault, it is the fault of the rider and director who
> committed the infraction!
Officials are OFTEN *insane* dweebs. Sure, sports need bureaucrats.
But the 'crats in cycling are as 'cratty as they come and then some.
The more minor the sport, of course, the more bizarre the 'crats.
But you take what you can get. It becomes just another bizarre
factor that can influence the outcome of a race. --Who'll get a flat?
Who'll get the bizarre officiating?
> >Davis Phinney's comments during the race when someone flatted: Something
> >to effect of:
> >If he[the rider who flatted] can stay in the caravan then he will be all
> >right.
>
> He wasnt IN the caravan, he was paced back TO the caravan by his team car!
>
> >Meaning that he can draft back up to the peleton.
Uh, peloton or caravan? He was off the back of all the team cars? His car
brought him up to the other cars, which he then rode thru to get to the
peloton? I doubt it. He sucked and gleetched up thru the team cars like
any other pro to get things back to where they were before the mechanical.
> Becuase you race in a pro peleton does not neccessarily mean you know the
> rules, it means you are a good rider. The officials in question are all
> National or Interational Commisaires (sp). I believe THEY know the rules!
Rules is as rules does. I had a cretin of an official bar me from my first stage race
when I didn't dot the i's right. Me telling him that I drove 1000 miles, that I
was just a rookie trying to learn, had no effect. His boss said that he was an idiot
and let me in. Whew!
ANYWAY! Hasn't Georgie been racing around the world lately? Any chance this
was the first time an official attempted to pull a stunt like that on him in
quite awhile?? (Like, since the last he raced in the US.) Maybe he banked on
the fact that this was supposed to be a EURO-like PRO race that he thought
the official would be IGNORED as the idiot (perhaps) that he was? Who knows.
Let's not jump to doubt the riders here. An actual shafting may have occured.
Dave MzDC
AND....given what Bart Bowen said about leaving the jersey in
Philadelphia, I think that this reflects what his opinion was regarding
the ruling, and also speaks volumes about the level of class of the person
who had the most to gain by this debacle.
David Mruz
Dave...@aol.com
Bruce Hildenbrand
In article <19970618200...@ladder01.news.aol.com> dave...@aol.com (Dave MzDC) writes:
>To all of you arm chair quarterbacks who are all coming down on the side
>of the official line on this one, how many of you were actually there to
>observe what happened?
>
>I haven't heard of anyone in the race or associated with racing (team
>directors, other officials, etc.) who believe that what they did to George
>was just and correct. There is more to this story than meets the eye.
Say what!?! Are you saying there was a conspiracy? It is illegal to take
pace behind a vehicle. Early on in a race, sometimes the officials look
the other way. However, in the closing miles of a race, everybody is
under tight scrutiny and if a rule gets broken, the penalties are
almost always enforced.
Tough luck for George, but that's bike racing.
Bruce Hildenbrand
Bruce Hildenbrand
In article <19970618211...@ladder02.news.aol.com> tmal...@aol.com (TMaloney1) writes:
>Dear RBR'oids:
>of all, I will commend Shawn Farrell for an excellent job of officiating;
>in fact the entire team of officials deserves to be commended for their
>excellent work all week from Thrift Drug to CoreStates. I have seen many
>official crews in action in intl level races in North America since 1985
>and this team did an excellent job. Clear, concise and fair, IMHO. And
>Farrell was very much in control of the CoreStates race all day.
>Secondly, Hincapie was dq'ed for PROLONGED drafting. This distinction was
>important; it is generally frowned upon but usually allowed for a rider
>who had a flat to be paced back to the tail end of the caravan, not to the
>field. Maybe for 30-45 seconds and if spotted, a fine can be levied. Its
>really up to the officials discretion as to how they interpret the rules.
>team manager Eddy B drafting George and driving agressively from just
>before the feed zone, along Kelly Drive and up & over Lemon Hill. 2 miles
>plus of drafting in the last 9 miles of a championships really left the
>Eddy B was repeatedly warned by Comm 2 on race radio and verbally by
>motorcycle officials. And that the prolonged drafting allowed Hincapie to
>rejoin and win the US title in the sprint.
>Certainly it was very unfortunate that the officials did not communicate
>their decision sooner, they did take the time to review this carefully as
>it was a major one. Most unfortunate was that Eddy B chose to make a
>flagrant violation of the rules that caused his rider to be dq'ed.
>Tim Maloney
Look! This is RBR! Interjecting things like eyewitness accounts or
facts are not appreciated because it severly limits our ability to
make wild specualtions and draw unreasonable conclusions from events
as we perceived them as happening from as far away as 12,000 miles!
Bruce Hildenbrand
Check the signature!
bhi...@stelvio.eng.sun.com (Bruce Hildenbrand) wrote:
>Look! This is RBR! Interjecting things like eyewitness accounts or
>facts are not appreciated because it severly limits our ability to
>make wild specualtions and draw unreasonable conclusions from events
>as we perceived them as happening from as far away as 12,000 miles!
Well, thanks Bruce... it's good to know that *somebody* has the right
perspective on this matter.
Facts? Bleh.
Eyewitness accounts? Nyah.
Imaginative speculation? There ya go!
Joey M. Jackson
Correct E-mail address:
road...@mindspring.com
Thomas N. Lewis
Qcwpete writes:
>If it was a mistake made in the heat of battle by Eddie B and GH, OK.
How do you mistakenly motorpace?
Eddy B. has published in a book that it is good tactics to bend this
rule past the breaking point when conditions warrant.
- Tom
Andrew Albright
In article <5o97do$o...@universe.digex.net>, spa...@universe.digex.net
(None of your business) wrote:
> What do you want, his email address so you can flame the shit out of him?
> You want a name? Tag number? When was the last time you had the officials
> names from a major race! There job is to insure a safe and fair playing
> field for competetive bicycle racing.
So explain what advantage Hincapie had over Bart Bowen when he flatted.
Stopped his bike. Got a new wheel. Started riding again. And then rode
back to the peleton (However he got there).
The official obviously wasn't worried about fair. He was worried about
following the letter of law. Which is stupid. Turn on the NBA finals and
watch Michael Jordan dunk the ball. Open the rule book and read the rule
on traveling. Michael Jordon and everyone else (Patrick Ewing takes 3
FULL steps) travels every time they dunk. But do they get called? Nope.
Why not? Because that is the way the game is PLAYED!
The sport suffers when there are tight ass officials who are more
interested in controlling a race and less in interested in making sure the
outcome is fair.
> The promoter could possibley be blamed for awarding the jersey before the
> officials produced the OFFICIAL results!
You can't possible be serious. The promoter is supposed to wait 80
minutes AFTER the race is finished to do the awards ceremony? (This was
95 minutes after the incident!!!) I would hope that next year the
promoter not only flies in good Euro teams, but also some good competent
officials to run a good quality high-profile UCI race.
> Becuase you race in a pro peleton does not neccessarily mean you know the
> rules, it means you are a good rider. The officials in question are all
> National or Interational Commisaires (sp). I believe THEY know the rules!
Just because you know the rules doesn't mean you know how to officiate a
race correctly.
Andrew Albright
>
> Scott
>
> --
> _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _ / _/_/_/
> _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/
> _/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/ Breakfast of Nitwits
Baird Webel
Thomas N. Lewis <thomas.le...@me.gatech.edu> wrote in article
<5ob9j4$b...@smash.gatech.edu>...
> Qcwpete writes:
> >If it was a mistake made in the heat of battle by Eddie B and GH, OK.
>
> How do you mistakenly motorpace?
Read the post. Peter didn't say that they had mistakenly motorpaced
i.e. motorpaced unintentionally, he said that they may have made a
mistake in doing the motorpacing. Given that the motorpacing, real or
not, has cost them the USPRO jersey, I think we can agree that if the
motorpacing ocurred, it was a mistake.
Of course, the question of whether Hincapie wins without the motorpacing
is a whole different matter.
baird
None of your business
In article <33A8C1...@glpbooks.SPAMBLOCK.com>,
Jeff Potter <j...@glpbooks.SPAMBLOCK.com> wrote:
>None of your business wrote:
>[]
>> field for competetive bicycle racing. Motor pacing behind a team car is
>> NOT a fair playing field.
>
>This is road racing, not mt-bike racing. Wouldn't a REALLY fair field
>include poor Georgie changing his own tire? "Gotta finish on your original
>wheels!" Pro road racing rules realize that the GAME is the thing, NOT
>the mechanicals. Their rules REDUCE the impact of mechanicals as much
>as possible. That's why you can get FREE LAPS! Duh! ("Hey, not fair, that
>guy didn't ride as far!")
Agreed! We do not disagree on this point at all!
>
>> >Bart Bowen "I can't really say I'm excited...It's a tainted situation.
>> >This is not the way I wanted to win the jersey....Maybe this is the year
>> >that the jersey just stays in Philly. It's really hard to put it on."
>
>Bart knows what he's talking about. Why not give him and Georgie
>and the other riders more credit? Wouldn't it be 'funny' if the whole
>peloton proceeded to treat this year's jersey like a rag? Would that
>tell you anything if no one wanted anything to do with it? Would
>you still insist 'say, mister, he broke da rule.'
I dont believe I said anything about Bart's comments. I have a feeling his
boss with the Saturn team will have different feelings about how Bart treats
and wears the jersey.
>
>> It is not his fault, it is the fault of the rider and director who
>> committed the infraction!
>
>Officials are OFTEN *insane* dweebs. Sure, sports need bureaucrats.
>But the 'crats in cycling are as 'cratty as they come and then some.
>The more minor the sport, of course, the more bizarre the 'crats.
>But you take what you can get. It becomes just another bizarre
>factor that can influence the outcome of a race. --Who'll get a flat?
>Who'll get the bizarre officiating?
I dont see any "bizarre officiating". I see a rider who took pace from a
car and got caught. He was *WARNED* for several minutes before it no lnoger
mattered, and later was disqualified for the rule infraction!
>
>> >Davis Phinney's comments during the race when someone flatted: Something
>> >to effect of:
>> >If he[the rider who flatted] can stay in the caravan then he will be all
>> >right.
>>
>> He wasnt IN the caravan, he was paced back TO the caravan by his team car!
>>
>> >Meaning that he can draft back up to the peleton.
>
>Uh, peloton or caravan? He was off the back of all the team cars? His car
>brought him up to the other cars, which he then rode thru to get to the
>peloton? I doubt it. He sucked and gleetched up thru the team cars like
>any other pro to get things back to where they were before the mechanical.
Because there was a break, which had enough time on the field, the officials
(as they are supposed to) allowed the riders team cars to go betweeen the field
and the break. George was in the break! George gets a flat. His team car
gives him a wheel. In the process, this smaller caravan passes George. It
is not a full 20 car caravan, it is just a few cars. George is behind this
smaller caravan. His team car, driven by Eddie B. motorpaces him BACK to
the small caravan. (Infraction just happened). George than procedes to use
the small caravan to get back into the break. No infraction there. I know
the terms motorpace, caravan, peleton, ect......
>
>> Becuase you race in a pro peleton does not neccessarily mean you know the
>> rules, it means you are a good rider. The officials in question are all
>> National or Interational Commisaires (sp). I believe THEY know the rules!
>
>Rules is as rules does. I had a cretin of an official bar me from my first stage race
>when I didn't dot the i's right. Me telling him that I drove 1000 miles, that I
>was just a rookie trying to learn, had no effect. His boss said that he was an idiot
>and let me in. Whew!
Glad to hear it! 1000 miles is a big drive!
>
>ANYWAY! Hasn't Georgie been racing around the world lately? Any chance this
>was the first time an official attempted to pull a stunt like that on him in
>quite awhile?? (Like, since the last he raced in the US.) Maybe he banked on
>the fact that this was supposed to be a EURO-like PRO race that he thought
>the official would be IGNORED as the idiot (perhaps) that he was? Who knows.
>Let's not jump to doubt the riders here. An actual shafting may have occured.
>
From waht I have heard, it seems that george broke the rules, got caught, and
got DQ'd. Had there not been a jersey involved, we would not be having this
conversation. Nobody has mentioned that George is about teh only rider I can
think of to be Dq'd 2 times in 2 major races in the last 5 years. I have met
George, had dinner with him at Corestates a year or two ago. I think he is a
really nice guy. I dont think it is bad luck, and I would have dont the same
damn thing! (well....if I was fast 8-).
Scott
--
_/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _ / _/_/_/
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/
_/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/ Breakfast of Champions
Bob Schwartz
Andrew Albright wrote:
[ textual flatulence deleted ]
Andrew,
When Museeuw flatted at a bad time on the way to the
Roubaix velodrome, it was too bad for Johan. If a Mapei
car had paced him back up to the lead chase group after
that puncture with 12km to go he'd have been DQ'ed for
certain. One can only assume they had good, competent
officials.
That's the way the game is played. The debate is whether
he motorpaced or not. Tim Maloney says he did, Peter
Durdaller says he didn't see it. Your point is just noise.
Bob Schwartz
bsch...@cray.com
None of your business
In article <albrigh-1906...@fgs3.med.upenn.edu>,
Andrew Albright <alb...@mail.med.upenn.nospam.edu> wrote:
>In article <5o97do$o...@universe.digex.net>, spa...@universe.digex.net
>(None of your business) wrote:
>
>> What do you want, his email address so you can flame the shit out of him?
>> You want a name? Tag number? When was the last time you had the officials
>> names from a major race! There job is to insure a safe and fair playing
>
>Stopped his bike. Got a new wheel. Started riding again. And then rode
>back to the peleton (However he got there).
He had no advantage! He was unfortunate enought to suffer a MIS-HAP! They
happen in this sport. They cost people races! It is a FACT!
>
>
>The official obviously wasn't worried about fair. He was worried about
>following the letter of law. Which is stupid. Turn on the NBA finals and
>watch Michael Jordan dunk the ball. Open the rule book and read the rule
>on traveling. Michael Jordon and everyone else (Patrick Ewing takes 3
>FULL steps) travels every time they dunk. But do they get called? Nope.
>Why not? Because that is the way the game is PLAYED!
Okay.....lets look at this..... Bart and George get a flat a the same time.
George gets a wheel change, motorpaces his ass back to the break. Bart
doesnt have a team car around. He rides the rim for 3 minutes, finally
gets a wheel, no team car around, finishes the race solo....some place in
between the break and the field. Was that fair? (perhap I should have
changed the names, I was not implying this hppened to Bart Bowen.)
Okay, one more....2 riders flat, get wheel changes at the same time....one
motorpaces back and wins...the other doesn't. Fair? NO!
We didn't have either of those scenarios, but George broke the rules, and
paid the price!
What the hell does basketball have to do with this?
>The sport suffers when there are tight ass officials who are more
>interested in controlling a race and less in interested in making sure the
>outcome is fair.
The did not control anyting! Thy insured that all of the rider had the same
advantages or disadvantages! No other rider in that break did motorpace work
in the middle!
>
>> The promoter could possibley be blamed for awarding the jersey before the
>> officials produced the OFFICIAL results!
>
>You can't possible be serious. The promoter is supposed to wait 80
>minutes AFTER the race is finished to do the awards ceremony? (This was
>95 minutes after the incident!!!) I would hope that next year the
>promoter not only flies in good Euro teams, but also some good competent
>officials to run a good quality high-profile UCI race.
The officials in question are all UCI Comisairres! As for the awards, I agree,
it should have been sorted out faster, but perhaps the confusion of the
situation would warrant a delay of some sort!
>
>
>> Becuase you race in a pro peleton does not neccessarily mean you know the
>> rules, it means you are a good rider. The officials in question are all
>> National or Interational Commisaires (sp). I believe THEY know the rules!
>
>Just because you know the rules doesn't mean you know how to officiate a
>race correctly.
The UCI doesnt just give out Comisaire liscenses! Takes a LONG time to get
one. These guys have probably worked more bike races than you have SEEN!!
James Abbott
Andrew Albright blabbed:
[snip]
> I would hope that next year the
> promoter not only flies in good Euro teams, but also some good competent
> officials to run a good quality high-profile UCI race.
>
Our biggest race of the year was officiated good quality high-profile UCI
officials. I was not surprised that Shawn Farrell (quoted by the press
reports) was in charge since he is highly qualified and has been picked by
the UCI to work the Worlds and the Olympics (not as a national pick). They
(the UCI) trust him; you should too.
>
> > Becuase you race in a pro peleton does not neccessarily mean you know
the
> > rules, it means you are a good rider. The officials in question are
all
> > National or Interational Commisaires (sp). I believe THEY know the
rules!
>
> Just because you know the rules doesn't mean you know how to officiate a
> race correctly.
>
True, but in *this* case you did have a high quality crew. (see the
Paris-Roubaix comment in this thread.)
Let's go back and talk about Hincapie's jersey sling in the TDP. I looked
at the video of the stage relegation dozens of times and saw his arm go
out, sweep backward, and he suddenly was faster than the guy he touched.
I obviously don't think he was robbed twice in the US, but many
disagree....
---
On a positive note, I'm glad George is such a strong rider and sprinter
who can claim some American results in Europe.
James Abbott
Plano, Tx
Mike Schwegman
In article <albrigh-1906...@fgs3.med.upenn.edu>,
alb...@mail.med.upenn.nospam.edu (Andrew Albright) wrote:
> In article <5o97do$o...@universe.digex.net>, spa...@universe.digex.net
> (None of your business) wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> Turn on the NBA finals and
> watch Michael Jordan dunk the ball. Open the rule book and read the rule
> on traveling. Michael Jordon and everyone else (Patrick Ewing takes 3
> FULL steps) travels every time they dunk.
>[snip]
Actually, this is covered in their contracts. Three Million dollar
contract gets you 3 steps. Nine million dollar contract gets you 9
steps.
alb...@mail.med.upenn.edu
In article <33A950...@cray.com>,
Bob Schwartz <bsch...@cray.com>
wrote:
>
> Andrew Albright wrote:
> [ textual flatulence deleted ]
>
> Andrew,
>
> When Museeuw flatted at a bad time on the way to the
> Roubaix velodrome, it was too bad for Johan. If a Mapei
> car had paced him back up to the lead chase group after
> that puncture with 12km to go he'd have been DQ'ed for
> certain. One can only assume they had good, competent
> officials.
Yeah, these are the same officials that
let all kinds of unimportant things go.
Have you ever seen the water bottle
handoff from the team car that sends the
rider shooting forward? Have you ever
seen the car come beside the rider on
the windward side, offering the rider a
little protection? Have you ever seen the
picture of Davis Phinney after he went
through the back of a car during a race?
Did you hear him on Sunday say that a
rider who had flatted would be OK
because he could draft back up?
>
> That's the way the game is played.
THAT is the way the game is played. You
don't DQ someone for bullshit reasons.
In flatting and having to change wheels,
George Hincapie gained no unfair
advantage. He did MORE work to get to
the line, not less.
> The debate is whether
> he motorpaced or not.
Not to me. This question will never be
resolved. It wasn't apparently caught on
camera and we have two sides to the
story .
But we can easily debate the question of
whether the officials overstepped their
role in officiating a cycling race.
> Tim Maloney says he did, Peter
> Durdaller says he didn't see it. Your
> point is just noise.
If you can't handle more than one mental
task at a time, please don't assume it is
noise. It is simple to dismiss that which
you don't understand.
Andrew Albright
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Bob Schwartz
Peter Durdaller wrote:
> I don't know about the warnings from com 2. I do know that the motor ref
> is notorious for bad, overly reactionary calls. I do know that George
> wasn't paced continuously over the entire distance you describe.
>
> I would like a recreated sequence by the officials to be made public on
> this issue. I feel the sport desreves it and so does George.
>
>
> But if it was an overreaction by a zealous official, then, shame, shame,
> shame on them.
I was mulling this on my ride home when it came to me. The DQ could
not have been an error in judgement on the part of the motor ref
because it isn't his call. He reports his observations and actions
(i.e. the warning) to Shawn Farrell who then makes the decision to
DQ or not. Any errors on the part of the motor ref would have to
be either errors in observation or in mis-reporting the events. Given
the ability of a motorcycle to get close to the event, I would be
skeptical that prolonged drafting was mistakenly observed, and I
don't think anyone would make an accusation of his intentionally
altering the reporting of events.
From my armchair far away from the race it appears that if anyone
feels that mistakes were made then the object of their ire should
be Farrell.
Bob Schwartz
bsch...@cray.com
Alan Paxton
> Not to me. This question will never be
> resolved. It wasn't apparently caught on
> camera and we have two sides to the
> story .
>
> But we can easily debate the question of
> whether the officials overstepped their
> role in officiating a cycling race.
Wrong on both counts. For once, people have posted clear eyewitness
reports of a DS being stupid enough to continue pacing when warned
not to. Presumably he decided they'd never win without pacing, so had
nothing to lose. A very short-termist rationale.
Even if we only suppose that such an infringement took place, if it
did then it's clearly illegal, and the defenders of anything goes
are having trouble finding an equivalent incident where someone
wasn't DQed. So there's no way the officials can be criticised.
Finally, we have the suggestion that the DQ was bad because the
rules would be fairer if pacing after any mechanical was allowed,
rather than as now tolerated in the middle of a race when the
dice have not been thrown. Extremely tenous. The basis of criticism
would now seem to be that the officials didn't act the way they
should have done if the rules were as you think they should be.
That doesn't cut much ice.
--
Alan Paxton (http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/alanpx/)
Steven L. Sheffield
> Have you ever seen the
> picture of Davis Phinney after he went
> through the back of a car during a race?
What does THIS have to do with anything? Davis was chasing to
get back on after flatting ... balls out ... head down, and slammed
into the back of the Isoglass team car, which was PARKED on the
side of the road doing a wheel change for one of its racers.
--
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Steven L. Sheffield (BOB #1765/IBOB #3) Disclaimer? What's that? |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
| ste...@veloworks.com / http://www.veloworks.com/rivendell |
| Voice: +1 415 296-9893 / Fax: +1 415 274-3259 / Ride yer bike! |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
Bob Schwartz
Andrew Albright wrote:
>
> In article <33A950...@cray.com>,
> Bob Schwartz <bsch...@cray.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Andrew Albright wrote:
> > [ textual flatulence deleted ]
> >
> > Andrew,
> >
> > When Museeuw flatted at a bad time on the way to the
> > Roubaix velodrome, it was too bad for Johan. If a Mapei
> > car had paced him back up to the lead chase group after
> > that puncture with 12km to go he'd have been DQ'ed for
> > certain. One can only assume they had good, competent
> > officials.
>
> Yeah, these are the same officials that
> let all kinds of unimportant things go.
> Have you ever seen the water bottle
> handoff from the team car that sends the
> rider shooting forward? Have you ever
> seen the car come beside the rider on
> the windward side, offering the rider a
> picture of Davis Phinney after he went
> through the back of a car during a race?
> rider who had flatted would be OK
> because he could draft back up?
Andrew, do you understand the difference between working
your way through the caravan vehicle by vehicle (which is
what Phinney was doing when he had his accident, and is no
doubt what Phinney was referring to about the rider that
flatted) and being paced all the way back to the field
(which is what Tim Maloney says was observed about Hincapie)?
Do you understand the difference between a hand sling, a
break from the wind for a few seconds, and spinning a
large gear for an extended period of time behind a car?
BTW Indurain got socked with a 20 second penalty for taking
a feed near the end of the stage to Les Arcs in the Tour
last year. The reason such feeds are prohibited is
because of the hand slings that often accompany them.
> >
> > That's the way the game is played.
>
> THAT is the way the game is played. You
> don't DQ someone for bullshit reasons.
> In flatting and having to change wheels,
> George Hincapie gained no unfair
> advantage. He did MORE work to get to
> the line, not less.
Which is the way it should be. Equipment selection is part
of the game. You have a mechanical you pay for it with
sweat. But apparently you feel this should not apply to
George.
> > The debate is whether
> > he motorpaced or not.
>
> Not to me. This question will never be
> resolved. It wasn't apparently caught on
> camera and we have two sides to the
> story .
>
> But we can easily debate the question of
> whether the officials overstepped their
> role in officiating a cycling race.
Yeah, we'll never resolve the grassy knoll question either.
But according to Tim there were reports of pacing from
team managers, Comm 2, and motor refs, along with multiple
warnings from Comm 2. The preponderance of evidence seems
to indicate guilt.
If you didn't feel the officials were fair then perhaps you
have a unique definition of fairness.
> > Tim Maloney says he did, Peter
> > Durdaller says he didn't see it. Your
> > point is just noise.
>
> If you can't handle more than one mental
> task at a time, please don't assume it is
> noise. It is simple to dismiss that which
> you don't understand.
If you can't handle getting your ducks in a row before
shooting off your keyboard, please don't assume you're
not just drooling from your fingers.
Bob Schwartz
bsch...@cray.com
Diane L. Benham
There has been a lot of talk on here from people defending Hincapie from
people who are not involved with the USPS team...but has either Eddie B.
or George gone on the record defending their actions? I've searched the
web and I can't find any quotes from them defending themselves, and
Eddie B. isn't exactly known for keeping his opinions to himself. If he
isn't vehemently defending himself and George, there's probably a reason
for it.
Diane
d...@pop.uky.edu
None of your business
In article <17B93A6A...@ukcc.uky.edu>,
Diane,
To the best of my knowledge, George and Eddie both stated they were going to
appeal the resultes the UCI. That is about all I have seen.
Tim Lucia
Andrew Albright wrote:
>
> You can't possible be serious. The promoter is supposed to wait 80
> minutes AFTER the race is finished to do the awards ceremony? (This was
> promoter not only flies in good Euro teams, but also some good competent
> officials to run a good quality high-profile UCI race.
I waited 3.5 hours for a state silver medal in our regional road race.
Official rules are official rules.
--
Timothy J. Lucia Digital Ladebug Debugger Developer
Digital Equipment Corporation Cat IV Charter Systems/Wheelworks/NEBC
110 Spitbrook Road ZK2-3Q08 Email: lu...@zko.dec.com
Nashua, NH USA 03062-2698 603.881.2615(Voice)/603.881.0120(FAX)
TedHas
In article <5obis5$a...@universe.digex.net>, spa...@universe.digex.net
(None of your business) writes:
>From waht I have heard, it seems that george broke the rules, got caught,
and
>got DQ'd. Had there not been a jersey involved, we would not be having
this
>conversation. Nobody has mentioned that George is about teh only rider I
can
>
>think of to be Dq'd 2 times in 2 major races in the last 5 years. I have
met
>George, had dinner with him at Corestates a year or two ago. I think he
is a
>really nice guy. I dont think it is bad luck, and I would have dont the
same
>damn thing! (well....if I was fast 8-).
From a distance, this looks like the right call--they pressed their
luck on pacing back up and it didn't pan out. And it shouldn't have
panned out. The DQ in the Tour du Pont was a much closer call
really. And it was really hard to blame Hincapie for that one.
He put his hand out to protect himself, not to get an advantage.
He had to make a spit second decision to reduce his risk of a
crash in a sprint. That was truely a tough break! He had plenty
of time to think over what was going on a Corestates. I sure
wish him the best. I really like his riding style and he does seem
like one of the good guys. I keep hoping for a breakthough in the
classics. He's been in Europe long enough that I forget how
young he is. His best years are still ahead.
--Ted Haskell
None of your business
In article <33AAE1...@zko.dec.com>, Tim Lucia <lu...@zko.dec.com> wrote:
>Andrew Albright wrote:
>>
>> You can't possible be serious. The promoter is supposed to wait 80
>> minutes AFTER the race is finished to do the awards ceremony? (This was
>> 95 minutes after the incident!!!) I would hope that next year the
>> promoter not only flies in good Euro teams, but also some good competent
>> officials to run a good quality high-profile UCI race.
>
>I waited 3.5 hours for a state silver medal in our regional road race.
>Official rules are official rules.
>
Timothy,
Obviously you have missed Andrews point complelety, he does not want rules
enforced, and when they are, he bitches about it!
Andrew Albright
> Andrew, do you understand the difference between working
> your way through the caravan vehicle by vehicle (which is
> what Phinney was doing when he had his accident, and is no
> doubt what Phinney was referring to about the rider that
> flatted) and being paced all the way back to the field
> (which is what Tim Maloney says was observed about Hincapie)?
>
> Do you understand the difference between a hand sling, a
> break from the wind for a few seconds, and spinning a
> large gear for an extended period of time behind a car?
They are all similiar in that they can be considered illegal by an official.
A major difference I see is that the last example was used by an
official(s) to screw up the US jersey for a year. When was the last time
that you heard of this causing such an uproar in a UCI race? I can't
recall any. Paul Sherwen couldn't.
Couldn't the officials have chosen some other race for their selective
enforcement?
> Yeah, we'll never resolve the grassy knoll question either.
> But according to Tim there were reports of pacing from
> team managers, Comm 2, and motor refs, along with multiple
> warnings from Comm 2. The preponderance of evidence seems
> to indicate guilt.
Depending on which side you want to believe. There are numerous people in
the USPS camp that would claim otherwise and one outside. I don't think
you have a preponderance there. You can believe what you will, but I am a
little skeptical of an officiating crew that takes 95 minutes to make a
call that all of you think is so straightforward. NINETY-FIVE
MINUTES!!!!! If they were so sure of themselves, what is the delay?
> If you can't handle getting your ducks in a row before
> shooting off your keyboard, please don't assume you're
> not just drooling from your fingers.
Ouch! Not the duck-keyboard-drooling flame!
Andrew Albright
Jamie Mikami
What about the race last year where the 3 Mapei guys were off the front
(Paris-Roubaix) I heard reports that Museeuw was given very generous
assistance without even having a flat tire. Not to mention the times
when he did get a flat. Plus in a normal caravan you can change your
tire and be back on your bike possibly before the entire caravan even
passes you or just after it does. This means a free ride for the most
part back to the front with only minimal time by yourself. I think they
should either ignore the rule, state the the rule is in effect only
during the final 10km of a race or just get rid of it all together. I
think in the case of Hincape, he was doing something that is done on a
regular basis on the Euro circuit, but when done in the US causes
problems. My thought is that while the rules are no drafting, this is
not what is normally done. hence officials don't always know what to
do. If rules are ignored sometimes and not others both the riders and
the officials will be upset. I think Hincape was in the right in this
case (IMHO) but at the same time the offcial was trying to do the fair
thing, but it just wasn't the right thing in this case (again IMHO).
JAmie Mikami
Alan Paxton wrote:
>
...
TMaloney1
I only related what the officials ( Mr Patton & Mr Gagne ), plus numerous
directors sportifs ( Vicino, Fabbri, Wordin & others ) saw happen.
Plus I DID hear the commisaire on the radio calling the car off
repeatedly.
As to Andrew Albrights comments, the rider was dq'ed for prolonged pacing.
A rider will be fined / dq'ed as he / she works their way back through
caravan and paces too long.
Experienced officials ( especially the motor refs who police the caravan )
will spot this and warn the rider first.
MOst riders want to get back up to the peloton ASAP.
I have been involved with cycling as a volunteer staffer formany years and
have driven the comms or been in the car in the race many, many times.
Although I find it strange to be in a position to defend them, the
officials at the Core States did a great job; perhaps the most
professional and focused job I have seen in North America. I can remember
when the German commisaire gave Rominger a controversial bonus in DuPont a
few years ago, or when a spanish commisaire was also at DuPont and let the
race get out of his control.
But Farrell, Gagne, Nee & Lambart did a great job.
Tim
nbce...@delphi.com
Andrew Albright <alb...@mail.med.upenn.nospam.edu> writes:
>But I want to personally thank the whole lot of them for everything. In
>particular, thank you for screwing up the Natl Champ Jersey for a year.
Assuming the truth of the motorpacing allegation, it would be more
appropriate to thank USPS for screwing up the Jersey. Again, assuming the
truth of the allegation, USPS took a chance, pushed the envelope of what
they could get away with, got nailed---paid the price. An appeal is of
course appropriate. I just hope USPS doesn't join the chorus of whiners
if the appeal is denied.
As far as I'm concerned, the only issue is factual--did he motorpace
after being warned to stop.If he did so, it was a stupid thing to continue
to do.
Brian Lafferty
buch...@consilium.com
In article <pbA+qtu....@delphi.com>,
The following was taken from Bill Mitchell's excellent cycle racing web
page:
`George Hincapie had a flat tire somewhere on the last two laps,'' head
commissaire Shawn Farrell said. ``He motorpaced behind his team car for
an extended period. The penalty carried for that is disqualification.''
``It was observed by two officials. By the time we could get together and
decide that, George was already up on the podium. It was the case of them
not heeding a warning. He was warned repeatedly to stop and didn't.''
U.S. Postal Service team manager Mark Gorski disputed Farrell's
explanation, saying he intended to file an appeal with the Union Cycliste
Internationale in Lausanne, Switzerland.
``On the second warning we pulled off,'' Gorski said. ``He said he gave
us six warnings. There was no physical way that was possible. ..."
*******
So, as I read it the fact that he was motor pacing is not in dispute.
The officials say he was repeated warned and seem to imply that if he
stopped as soon as warned then that would have been the end of it. As it
is even Gorski admits that he ignored the first warning.
An analogy might be - you're in your car in a 55 mph zone and a cop stops
you and says he clocked you going 85 mph and your "defense" is that you
were only going 75.
Tim Lucia
buch...@consilium.com wrote:
>
> An analogy might be - you're in your car in a 55 mph zone and a cop stops
> you and says he clocked you going 85 mph and your "defense" is that you
> were only going 75.
In some states, 85 is a criminal offense "Driving to endanger" and 75 is
a civil offense "Speeding". 25 mph + over the speed limit qualifies as
endangerment. If your defense is "I really was only drive 70" then you
have a legitimate beef, because most cops I've witnessed aren't the
least bit phased by 70 in a 55. 70+ usually will get their attention.
In Massachusetts, the fine is like $50 for the first 10 miles over,
then $10/mile after that, so 70 mph is a $100 fine and 85 would be
$250. So you see, the penalties and enforcement are selective depending
on where you are and how nice you are to the offic(er)ial.