Cable Routing Change - Weld to Aluminum?
Chris
In article <5itm6t$n...@hamblin.math.byu.edu>, re...@byu.edu wrote:
> Cable Routing Change - Weld to Aluminum?
>
> I have a bike that I want to change one of the cable routings on.
> The rear deraileur runs down the bottom tube while the others run
> along the top tube. I've determined the top tube routing I'd like the
>
> other cable to use.
>
> How or where would I get those little sockets (what are they called )
> that are affixed to the frame the cable goes into?
>
> How are they affixed - welded? glued? other?
>
> Has anyone tried playing with the cable routing on their bike
> that can share experience?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jack
This can be somewhat easy, or pretty darn tricky. You can purchase
triple stops. They're hard to find in a local shop, but maybe they could
order them for you. Some have to be welded on, others can simply be
riveted on. That's the way you should probably go- cheaper- less to worry
about... BUT- you will probably void ANy warranty by doing ANY of
this!!! Plus, you will most likely have to add a cable stop on the seat
tube, which would have to be welded on. This sounds fairly simple and all,
but can get kind of messy and expensive. Then you have
repainting/repolishing...
Putting that cable stop, and the triple stops, in the wrong places can
severely affect your shifting/braking. So unless you have a good frame
builder nearby, you might just want to deal with it... Where do you
live???
Jack Reese
Joshua_Putnam
>Cable Routing Change - Weld to Aluminum?
>I have a bike that I want to change one of the cable routings on.
>The rear deraileur runs down the bottom tube while the others run
>along the top tube. I've determined the top tube routing I'd like the
>other cable to use.
>How or where would I get those little sockets (what are they called )
>that are affixed to the frame the cable goes into?
>How are they affixed - welded? glued? other?
Depending on your tubing size, the simplest solution might be to
find old-fashioned clamped-on cable stops, the sort that were
used on road bikes before everyone switched to brazed-on stops.
If your top tube is a standard old road bike tube size, 1" or
1-1/8" especially, you should be able to find clamped-on stops at
an older bike shop.
Stops can be welded, rivetted, or glued to aluminum, depending on
the alloy of the bike and the preferences of the frame builder.
I'd suggest finding a shop in your area that builds aluminum
frames and getting their opinion on your setup.
--
Jo...@WolfeNet.com is Joshua Putnam / P.O. Box 13220 / Burton, WA 98013
"My other bike is a car."
http://www.wolfenet.com/~josh
standupsteve
> >
> > I have a bike that I want to change one of the cable routings on.
> > The rear deraileur runs down the bottom tube while the others run
> > along the top tube. I've determined the top tube routing I'd like the
> >
> > other cable to use.
> >
> > How or where would I get those little sockets (what are they called )
> > that are affixed to the frame the cable goes into?
> >
> > How are they affixed - welded? glued? other?
> >
> > that can share experience?
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Jack
>
have some pretty after cable turns to deal with, such as from top tube
to seat tube, and then from seat tube to chain stay....
I've never seen a top routed rear derailleur cable. It would be much
longer, more prone to stretching and fraying from friction and would
probably take away from the precision needed for indexing.
Baird Webel
standupsteve <standu...@geocities.com> wrote in article
<335661...@geocities.com>...
> If you run a rear derailleur cable along the top tube, you will have
to
> have some pretty after cable turns to deal with, such as from top tube
> to seat tube, and then from seat tube to chain stay....
>
> I've never seen a top routed rear derailleur cable. It would be much
> longer, more prone to stretching and fraying from friction and would
> probably take away from the precision needed for indexing.
I think you are misunderstanding how you would run the cable. The cable
wouldn't run along the top tube, down the seat tube, and then along the
chainstay. the cable runs along the top tub and then down the seat stay
to the rear derailleur. It shouldn't result in any more bends or cable
length than you have with regular STI cables these days.
I've seen this kind of routing on both MTB and cross bikes where you
don't want to get the routing gunked up with mud. I think it might make
sense on any bike when you are going to shifters on the bars instead of
on the downtube, you just have to have a front derailleur that is
designed to have the cable pull from the top, not the bottom.
baird
JMTaco
I once rivetted 2 cable stops to the top tube of a Cannondale. Yes, It
held up, and when the frame cracked, in another spot, not related to the
drill and rivet operation, they still honored the warranty!
It took two trys. The first one involved just rivets, I had a freind who
worked at Alpinestars and got me some cable stops. Their curvature was
slightly less than that of the top tube, so eventually the stops started
rocking, but they never came loose. I drilled the rivets and reinstalled
the stops with JB Weld and rivets and it worked wonderfully, never came
loose.
I used 1/8" aluminum blind rivets, so I only had to drill four 1/8" holes
in the tube.
Now, the disclaimer. I weigh 150 pounds, if that makes a difference. I
would use caution on a bike for a Clydsedale, but I really don't see any
problems with this.
If anyone is interested, I have a bunch of cable guides off of warranty
carbon framesets. Simple rivet on jobbies, cheap. Email me if you need
any.
Taco (JMTaco @aol.com)
Chris Neary
Please note that the weldability of aluminum varies highly depending
on alloy composition. For example, Cannondales are, by necessity, heat
treated after welding to restore properties in the heat affected zone
of the welds. Welding cable stops on a Cannondale would be a bad idea.
OTOH, most aluminum frames receive no heat treatment after welding.
They're made of grades which are less sensitive metallurgically to the
heat of welding (for example, 6061 grade aluminum). In these cases,
installation of cable stops, by a competent welder, should be
practical and will not jeopardize the frame.
Obviously any modification of the frame by the consumer potentially
voids the warranty, although an ethical manufacturer would choose to
not honor the warranty only if the failure were obvously related to
the modification performed (i.e, if you weld a cable stop to the seat
tube and 6 months later the head tube weld fails - the warranty should
still be valid).
<<newsgroups trimmed>>
Good luck,
Chris Neary
dia...@aimnet.com
"It doesn't get any easier - you just go faster" - Greg Lemond
Harry Phinney
Chris Neary (dia...@aimnet.com) wrote:
: Please note that the weldability of aluminum varies highly depending
: on alloy composition. For example, Cannondales are, by necessity, heat
: treated after welding to restore properties in the heat affected zone
: of the welds. Welding cable stops on a Cannondale would be a bad idea.
This is true, assuming the welder does not have the frame heat treated
after the cable stops are welded.
: OTOH, most aluminum frames receive no heat treatment after welding.
I am highly skeptical of this. There are certainly many brands and
models of al frames which are not heat treated after welding, but I
suspect that their production numbers are swamped by firms such as
Cannondale and Klein who use alloys which must be heat treated to
attain the necessary strength levels for their designs.
: They're made of grades which are less sensitive metallurgically to the
: heat of welding (for example, 6061 grade aluminum).
6061 is a heat treatable alloy, and is what Cannondales at least used to
be made from (as well as Kleins). Unless you and the welder know the
alloy used in the frame and therefore know the appropriate filler metal
and post-weld treatment I would suggest not welding additions onto an al
frame.
Harry Phinney ha...@cv.hp.com
Joshua_Putnam
>If you run a rear derailleur cable along the top tube, you will have to
>have some pretty after cable turns to deal with, such as from top tube
>to seat tube, and then from seat tube to chain stay....
Top mounted derailleur cables aren't at all unusual on mountain
bikes. The routing goes from the top tube to the seat stay,
witht he final stop on the bottom of the seat stay instead of on
the chainstay. This actually can work better for indexing since
it eliminates the drag of a bottom bracket cable guide. (My many
year old Bianchi Grizzly has all top tube routing, including a
top pull front derailleur, and it's definitely better in dirty
conditions than traditional cable routing.)
Edward Steele
re...@byu.edu (Jack Reese) wrote:
>How are they affixed - welded? glued? other?
As Chris Neary noted most Al frames are heat treated for strength and
welding would remove the heat treating arround the weld. I would
advise against welding becuase of the difficulties in welding a thin
guide to a thick tube, and the cost and chance of warping with reheat
treating.
There are several companies that make high strength glues and double
sided tapes (3M and Master Bond come to mind) which could be used to
fasten the guides. Some these tapes have the strenght and durablity
to fasten body panels on race cars. You might not be able to find
the right tape or glue at you local hardware store so you'll have to
do a little leg work to find it.
Good luck and let me know what you do and how it works out.
Chris Neary
ha...@cv.hp.com (Harry Phinney) wrote:
>Chris Neary (dia...@aimnet.com) wrote:
>: Please note that the weldability of aluminum varies highly depending
>: on alloy composition. For example, Cannondales are, by necessity, heat
>: treated after welding to restore properties in the heat affected zone
>: of the welds. Welding cable stops on a Cannondale would be a bad idea.
>
>This is true, assuming the welder does not have the frame heat treated
>after the cable stops are welded.
Heat treating a bike frame is tricky business, done incorrectly you
could end up with a pretzel - or at least some misalignment. Doesn't
sound like a good risk/reward balance for installation of something as
small as a cable stop. Also heat treatment would be an expensive
operation for something as simple as adding a cable stop.
Cannondale spent many $$$ perfecting their heat treatment process.
>: OTOH, most aluminum frames receive no heat treatment after welding.
>
>I am highly skeptical of this. There are certainly many brands and
>models of al frames which are not heat treated after welding, but I
>suspect that their production numbers are swamped by firms such as
>Cannondale and Klein who use alloys which must be heat treated to
>attain the necessary strength levels for their designs.
Hmm, Trek (including Fisher), Specialized, and GT don't heat treat, as
far as I know. I'd say more frames don't get heat treated than do.
>: They're made of grades which are less sensitive metallurgically to the
>: heat of welding (for example, 6061 grade aluminum).
>
>6061 is a heat treatable alloy, and is what Cannondales at least used to
>be made from (as well as Kleins). Unless you and the welder know the
>alloy used in the frame and therefore know the appropriate filler metal
>and post-weld treatment I would suggest not welding additions onto an al
>frame.
Right you are about the 6061 and Cannondales. It's what I get for
working from memory. What tripped me up is that fact that 6061 is heat
treatable, but is often used in structural applications without
postweld heat treatment.
Your advice on necessary knowledge before welding is sound - and a
good starting point when considering any welding operation. The first
question I usually ask my clients when they call for a welding
consultation is "What is this thing made of?"
Best wishes,
Joshua_Putnam
In <5jac6l$l...@camel1.mindspring.com> edst...@mindspring.com (Edward Steele) writes:
>There are several companies that make high strength glues and double
>sided tapes (3M and Master Bond come to mind) which could be used to
>fasten the guides. Some these tapes have the strenght and durablity
>to fasten body panels on race cars. You might not be able to find
>the right tape or glue at you local hardware store so you'll have to
>do a little leg work to find it.
If you can't find these high strength tapes locally, I know
they're in the McMaster Carr industrial supply catalog. (See the
rec.crafts.metalworking FAQ for phone & address.)
Steve
On Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:42:53 -0400, standupsteve
<standu...@geocities.com> wrote:
>If you run a rear derailleur cable along the top tube, you will have to
>have some pretty after cable turns to deal with, such as from top tube
>to seat tube, and then from seat tube to chain stay....
>
>I've never seen a top routed rear derailleur cable. It would be much
>longer, more prone to stretching and fraying from friction and would
>probably take away from the precision needed for indexing.
Really? Come and look at my old TREK 6000 aluminium. Had it 5 years
and never missed a cog yet!
The length isn't important either as most of the cable is unsheathed.
Regards from Steve.
<<REMOVE "ANTISPAM"from e-mail address B4 replying>>
Steve
On 19 Apr 1997 18:18:44 GMT, jo...@WOLFENET.COM (Joshua_Putnam) wrote:
>>There are several companies that make high strength glues and double
>>sided tapes (3M and Master Bond come to mind) which could be used to
>>fasten the guides.
Loctite Structural Adhesive if you are in Europe.........
BTW: My old Trek is 6061 tube and lugs, heat treated to T6 spec.
It is Bonded, NOT welded, so how did they heat post heat - treat that
without melting the glue then :-p
Chris Neary
ANTISPAM...@dircon.co.uk (Steve) wrote:
>BTW: My old Trek is 6061 tube and lugs, heat treated to T6 spec.
>It is Bonded, NOT welded, so how did they heat post heat - treat that
>without melting the glue then :-p
>
Simple. The tubes and lugs were supplied to Trek in the T6 condition.
Postheat treatment is only done to restore weld and heat affected zone
properties only. It's rare to want to change the base metal properties
post-fabrication.
BTW, I also have an old bonded Trek 6000, although mine has been
relegated to touring/commuter duty.
<<newsgroups trimmed>>
Chris Neary
dia...@aimnet.com
"Cycle tracks will abound in Utopia" - H.G. Wells
Jeffrey Potoff
Baird Webel wrote:
>
> I've seen this kind of routing on both MTB and cross bikes where you
> don't want to get the routing gunked up with mud. I think it might make
> sense on any bike when you are going to shifters on the bars instead of
> on the downtube, you just have to have a front derailleur that is
> designed to have the cable pull from the top, not the bottom.
That's what the manufactures tell you, but in reality it doesn't make
much difference as far as getting filled with mud goes.
Jeff
Jeffrey Potoff
>
> >I have a bike that I want to change one of the cable routings on.
> >The rear deraileur runs down the bottom tube while the others run
> >along the top tube. I've determined the top tube routing I'd like the
> >other cable to use.
You may wish to think twice about this. If you're moving the cable in
attempt to improve shifting performance, I think you're going to be
dissappointed. In our shop we actually had more trouble with the
rear derailleur cables on top tube mounted bikes than on downtube
mounted models. For some reason the lower housing had a tendency
to fill up with dirt.
>
> >How or where would I get those little sockets (what are they called )
> >that are affixed to the frame the cable goes into?
> Go to your local bike shop. They should be able to order the right
fittings for you.
> >How are they affixed - welded? glued? other?
>On an aluminum bike you would glue and rivet them.
Jeff
Kristan Roberge
jo...@WOLFENET.COM (Joshua_Putnam) wrote:
>
> In <335661...@geocities.com> standupsteve <standu...@geocities.com> writes:
>
> >have some pretty after cable turns to deal with, such as from top tube
> >to seat tube, and then from seat tube to chain stay....
>
> bikes. The routing goes from the top tube to the seat stay,
> witht he final stop on the bottom of the seat stay instead of on
> the chainstay. This actually can work better for indexing since
> it eliminates the drag of a bottom bracket cable guide. (My many
> year old Bianchi Grizzly has all top tube routing, including a
> top pull front derailleur, and it's definitely better in dirty
> conditions than traditional cable routing.)
Actually the rear derailleur cable routing is WORSE in really mucky
conditions... any water/dirt/mud that is kicked up onto the cable/seatstay
can now just gravity feed itself down into the cable-housing loop.
Mark Bulgier
Steve wrote:
> BTW: My old Trek is 6061 tube and lugs, heat treated to T6 spec.
> It is Bonded, NOT welded, so how did they heat post heat - treat that
> without melting the glue then :-p
Assuming your question is serious and not a joke:
Heat-treated tubes are glued into heat-treated lugs.
If it was a troll, ya got me!
Mark Bulgier, Seattle
mailto:ma...@ticycles.com
http://ticycles.com
j.delgrosso
In article <335661...@geocities.com>, standu...@geocities.com wrote:
*Chris wrote:
*>
*> In article <5itm6t$n...@hamblin.math.byu.edu>, re...@byu.edu wrote:
*> > Has anyone tried playing with the cable routing on their bike
*> > that can share experience?
*> >
*> >
*> > Thanks,
*> >
*> > Jack
*>
*If you run a rear derailleur cable along the top tube, you will have to
*have some pretty after cable turns to deal with, such as from top tube
*to seat tube, and then from seat tube to chain stay....
*
*I've never seen a top routed rear derailleur cable. It would be much
*longer, more prone to stretching and fraying from friction and would
*probably take away from the precision needed for indexing.
My mountain bike has a top mounted cable, and it doesn't cause any
problems whatsoever. there are four stops; two on each end of the top
tube, and two on each end of the seatstay. Then there is a loop of
housing that leads it from there to the derailleur. Most mountain bikes
that I see do this the same way. My old bike had the bottom mounted ones,
and I don't notice any difference between the two.
jn
--
"That's the remarkable thing about life... It's never so bad that things can't get worse"
--calvin
*********************************************************************
j.delgrosso
jed...@rit.edu *REMOVE FUNNY CHARACTERS TO REPLY VIA EMAIL*
*********************************************************************
Joshua_Putnam
In <5jdce3$s...@news.istar.ca> Kristan Roberge <krob...@magi.com> writes:
>jo...@WOLFENET.COM (Joshua_Putnam) wrote:
>>
>> The routing goes from the top tube to the seat stay,
>> with the final stop on the bottom of the seat stay instead of on
>> the chainstay. This actually can work better for indexing since
>> it eliminates the drag of a bottom bracket cable guide. (My many
>> year old Bianchi Grizzly has all top tube routing, including a
>> top pull front derailleur, and it's definitely better in dirty
>> conditions than traditional cable routing.)
>Actually the rear derailleur cable routing is WORSE in really mucky
>conditions... any water/dirt/mud that is kicked up onto the cable/seatstay
>can now just gravity feed itself down into the cable-housing loop.
That's what sealed ferrules are for.
John Laninga
FWIW, I have a Slingshot bike that has no downtube. The cables (rear
DR, rear brake, and front DR) run alongside the top tube. Never had a
problem with it. Never actually thought much about it until this post,
either.
John