Mach5 COMP XC vs. RS Quadra 21R?
Jussi Sääski
I'm considering to buy a suspension fork and have come up with to
equially priced alternatives, Answer Manitou Mach5 Comp XC and Rock
Shox Quadra 21R.
The guy in my LBS tells me they both are excellend choices for the
money. There are some differences that I'm avare of: R21 has travel of
60mm, XC about 10mm less; R21 weights 1360g, XC 3.1 lbs=about 1410g.
He also mentinoned that the XC has stiffer Posi-link arch design
compared to RS's. But then he told that if I want the XC I will have
to upgrade my headset to a Aheadset style. I would like to know if
either of them has an adjustable preload system with which you can
change the fork's performance on the trail? They both have elastomers
of different stiffness but I don't consider it a relevant solution to
this particular problem.
I have had two previous bikes with aheadset and I must say I'm a
little bit surpriced since now I have had a lot _less_ maintanence.
Before I had to tighten the aheadset about once a week, and then I did
not do any cross country! What are the real benefits of aheadset other
than smaller tools you can carry in a hip pack when going for a ride?
This will be my first suspension fork and I would like to know all
relevant aspects before I make a deal. Tell me your experiences with
these two forks!
Thanks in advance and ride on!
Jussi
Matt O'Toole
>Hello all!
>I'm considering to buy a suspension fork and have come up with to
>equially priced alternatives, Answer Manitou Mach5 Comp XC and Rock
>Shox Quadra 21R.
>The guy in my LBS tells me they both are excellend choices for the
>money.
He's right. You might also want to consider a Mag 21 at the same
price also, especially if you're an aggressive rider.
> There are some differences that I'm avare of: R21 has travel of
>60mm, XC about 10mm less; R21 weights 1360g, XC 3.1 lbs=about 1410g.
Actually, I think they both have about the same travel in practice.
Weight varies with the length of the steerer on the measured sample,
so be sure you're comparing the same fork. Function matters a lot
more than weight, though.
>He also mentinoned that the XC has stiffer Posi-link arch design
>compared to RS's.
That's true, and the Manitou has fatter, stiffer stanchions as well.
I think this is even more important.
> But then he told that if I want the XC I will have
>to upgrade my headset to a Aheadset style.
Factor in the cost of a new stem, a new headset, and the labor to
install it, and you could have bought a (threaded) Judy XC, a better
performing fork.
> I would like to know if
>either of them has an adjustable preload system with which you can
>change the fork's performance on the trail? They both have elastomers
>of different stiffness but I don't consider it a relevant solution to
>this particular problem.
Actually, it's better to tune with the different bumpers, and use the
preload only for final adjustment. Preload doesn't stiffen the stack
to help prevent bottoming: you need stiffer bumpers for that.
Preload will only increase the load at which the fork starts to move.
It's really only useful to tone down the bobbing a little. Manitous
are available with several different types of bumpers. Rockshox
bumpers come in only 2 stiffnesses, and they're hard to find in shops.
>I have had two previous bikes with aheadset and I must say I'm a
>little bit surpriced since now I have had a lot _less_ maintanence.
>Before I had to tighten the aheadset about once a week, and then I did
>not do any cross country!
Many threaded headsets have poor quality threads, or have been damaged
by improper installation or adjustment. Because of this, they keep
loosening. A good quality, properly adjusted threaded headset should
give you no problems. Light (blue bottle) Locktite can help a lot if
your threads are sketchy. Spacers between the nuts are a no-no, cut
the steerer to the proper length instead.
> What are the real benefits of aheadset other
>than smaller tools you can carry in a hip pack when going for a ride?
Mostly the smaller tools, and also that the threadless design allows a
lighter aluminum steerer to be used. A threadless steel steerer would
actually be heavier, due to the extra length. The real advantage of
the Aheadset is to the industry. Forks can be manufactured and
stocked in a one-size-fits-all steerer tube length, and cut to length
by a complete idiot without messing up the threads.
>This will be my first suspension fork and I would like to know all
>relevant aspects before I make a deal. Tell me your experiences with
>these two forks!
Both ride great, similar in fact. I like the greater stiffness of the
Manitou, but if I had to spend the extra money on Aheadset parts, I'd
go for the Quadra instead or spend the extra on a Judy.
Smooth sailing,
Matt O.
Sam Chin
>
> Hello all!
>
> I'm considering to buy a suspension fork and have come up with to
> equially priced alternatives, Answer Manitou Mach5 Comp XC and Rock
> Shox Quadra 21R.
>
> The guy in my LBS tells me they both are excellend choices for the
> 60mm, XC about 10mm less; R21 weights 1360g, XC 3.1 lbs=about 1410g.
> to upgrade my headset to a Aheadset style.
I just purchased the Manitou Mach 5 SX fork with a threaded steerer
tube, so you should also be able to get the Mach 5 Comp XC with
a threaded steerer as well.
Sammy Chin
(ch...@wu28.wl.aecl.ca)
Flailer
>
> Hello all!
>
> I'm considering to buy a suspension fork and have come up with to
> equially priced alternatives, Answer Manitou Mach5 Comp XC and Rock
> Shox Quadra 21R.
You should be able to get either with a threaded steerer tube.
That way you can stay with your threaded headset, and save
oh- about a $100.00 (USA) (or more).
Mark Hickey
> I'm considering to buy a suspension fork and have come up with to
> equially priced alternatives, Answer Manitou Mach5 Comp XC and Rock
> Shox Quadra 21R.
>
> The guy in my LBS tells me they both are excellend choices for the
> money. There are some differences that I'm avare of: R21 has travel of
> 60mm, XC about 10mm less; R21 weights 1360g, XC 3.1 lbs=about 1410g.
I believe the travel is actually about the same. As for weights, make
sure you're getting *actual* weights. Manitou may be off a little,
but RS seems to weigh their stuff on the moon. For example, the Judy XC
weighs close to 1/2 pound more than their advertized weight (not sure
about the R21).
> He also mentinoned that the XC has stiffer Posi-link arch design
> compared to RS's.
This will likely be the most noticable differences between the two.
> But then he told that if I want the XC I will have
> to upgrade my headset to a Aheadset style.
Huh? I'd take a long, hard look at your LBS on this one. The XC is
available in 5.5, 6.5, and 7.5" threaded steerers. Maybe he only has
a threadless in stock, and doesn't want to order another one for you?
> I have had two previous bikes with aheadset and I must say I'm a
> little bit surpriced since now I have had a lot _less_ maintanence.
> Before I had to tighten the aheadset about once a week, and then I did
> not do any cross country! What are the real benefits of aheadset other
> than smaller tools you can carry in a hip pack when going for a ride?
The benefits are all for the industry, not the consumer. There is no
real weight advantage, they tend to slip, and most stems have knee-
openers built in. But your LBS only has to stock one size threadless,
as will builders, so they might tend to push the threadless. I don't.
> This will be my first suspension fork and I would like to know all
> relevant aspects before I make a deal. Tell me your experiences with
> these two forks!
I've had great luck with the Mach 5 ProXC. It's as good a shock as
you can get for the money, IMHO. Manitou's marketing machine isn't
nearly as hip as RS's though. How else could you explain that the
Judy (which is heavier, more flexible, more expensive, and has a long
history of repeated cartridge failure) is outselling the Manitou
Mach 5SX? Maybe it's the yellow......
Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
Michael Challis
>Jussi Sääski wrote:
>>
>> Hello all!
>>
>> I'm considering to buy a suspension fork and have come up with to
>> equially priced alternatives, Answer Manitou Mach5 Comp XC and Rock
>> Shox Quadra 21R.
>You should be able to get either with a threaded steerer tube.
>That way you can stay with your threaded headset, and save
>oh- about a $100.00 (USA) (or more).
You may want a new stem with 5 to 10 degrees less rise due to the
length of the fork.
MC
Jussi Sääski
>He's right. You might also want to consider a Mag 21 at the same
>price also, especially if you're an aggressive rider.
If I know right Mag 21 is a oil/air fork? It also means more
maintanence and higher replacement part costs. Is this correct? What
I need to do to myself is to weight the benefits of better performance
(Mag 21) against more economical and trouble freer solution (Comp XC
or 21R). I saw a fork test in a local bike magazine and it said that
although the Mag21 was the best fork before the Judy's came, it no
longer is a match for newer forks. They complained inadequate lateral
stiffness and difficult travel/shock absorbtion adjustment. It was
very important to have correct air pressure for the rider's weight
because otherwise the fork would either be very hard or bottom out.
I have owned several MTB's during a period of 5 years (all but one
stolen) but it is only recently I have started to use it for it's
original purpose, riding off-road. I removed all the unneccessary
parts and voilá - I got a perfect hobbyist's MTB: 7005 Easton
aluminium frame, LX rear/from derailleurs, STX RC breaks and GripShift
600 shifters. I have told you this in order to make you understand my
starting point: I am not a pro off-roader nor a very experienced one
but I enjoy it as freaquent as it's possible. As this will be my first
suspension fork my criteria for purchase are easy maintanence,
reasonably low cost and long life.
>Actually, I think they both have about the same travel in practice.
>Weight varies with the length of the steerer on the measured sample,
>so be sure you're comparing the same fork. Function matters a lot
>more than weight, though.
I think my "newbiness" in this matter is releaved by the desire to
spare any gram possible when upgrading a bike. I would like to hear
an opinion from an experienced off-roader how to do it wisely. I have
thought of upgrading by replacing parts that wear out by nature:
tyres and transmission parts. Please comment my plan. All the sprocket
wheels, rear and front of the transmission are made of steel. (sorry,
I don't know their correct english names) How much will I spare
weight if I upgrade to aluminim ones? What about lighter kevlar made
tyres? For summer riding I have a pair of Maxxis Viper/Cobra
combination. Would I save 100-150 grams a tyre?
>>He also mentinoned that the XC has stiffer Posi-link arch design
>>compared to RS's.
>That's true, and the Manitou has fatter, stiffer stanchions as well.
>I think this is even more important.
Could you elaborate on this? Why is it more important? What are the
benefits of a stiffer body parts of the fork other than crisper
breaking feel and more stopping power? Sorry to ask such a silly
question :)
>Actually, it's better to tune with the different bumpers, and use the
>preload only for final adjustment. Preload doesn't stiffen the stack
>to help prevent bottoming: you need stiffer bumpers for that.
>Preload will only increase the load at which the fork starts to move.
>It's really only useful to tone down the bobbing a little. Manitous
>are available with several different types of bumpers. Rockshox
>bumpers come in only 2 stiffnesses, and they're hard to find in shops.
In the LBS the guy disassembled the bumber and showed that for '96 RS
21R has four elastomer parts in each leg, not one as was in '95. As
far as I know the Mach5 Comp XC model has only one elastomer in each
leg. Is this correct?
In recent weeks I have been riding in snowy conditions. The
temperatures are low about -15 degrees Celcius. I understand that
elastomers get a lot harder when in cold but you can compensate it by
using softer compounds. Do soft elastomers work as "advertised" in
cold weather, ie. provide the same amount of shock absorption and
travel? I have heard that Q21R fork can get rock hard in winter.
>Smooth sailing,
>Matt O.
Thank you Matt, you have been of great help to me!
Jussi
Lauri S{{ski TKKK
>>I need to do to myself is to weight the benefits of better performance
>>(Mag 21) against more economical and trouble freer solution (Comp XC
>>or 21R).
>I think the Comp XC would be the choice for hands off, total
>reliability with decent performance. The Quadra would be fine too,
>but the Comp XC is stiffer.
So the Q21R would be fine fork too, but still not as good as Mach5 Comp XC?
What bothers me is that a lot of people here in this group seem to talk of
Mach5 series as _one_ product, not three differently priced forks. It's a
kind of confusing when they compare a Judy with a Mach5 without specifying
the model of either one.
>A Ti cassette saves some weight,
>but is very expensive and wears out quickly. Get an XT cassette when
>yours wears out, it will be lighter and longer lasting, yet still
>reasonable.
What is a XT casette made of? When changing one part in transmission I have
learned to change all other parts (chain, casette, and cog rings). Otherwise
the chain will start slipping from the cogs. Is there a remedy to this other
my recipy?
>Yes, and maybe even more, depending on how heavy your current ones
>are. Tires make the biggest difference, and are the cheapest upgrade
>as well. Kevlar beaded tires also have lighter, thinner, more supple
>casings that ride a lot better too. The new Specialized Team Edition
>tires are really, really light. Narrow tires like Vredesteins and
>Contis have low rollling resistance too, and as long as the ground is
>not loose, this helps a lot. Use what you have until it wears out,
>then upgrade.
I have been reading about kevlar beaded tyres and have come up with these
thoughts: Kevlar makes a tyre lighter but in order to buy a tyre a lot more
expensive, it must also last longer. Do they really? I mean I suspect that
like in motor sports, tyres have excellent qualities but they are not ment
for ordinary people who refuse to buy a new set every six months. I would
like to know if there are kevlar beaded tyres which are lighter and also
last longer than non kevlar tyres. I would never take a MTB tyre which turns
to slick in no time (like the yellow Tioga Psyho-K !). I understand that
the better the grip (because of softer material) the faster it wears.
Therefore I am willing to compromise a little loss of grip for longer life.
My other preferences are:
- 2.1 width for 2.0 or 1.9. (for softer travel)
- similar tyre in front and back (swappable for longer life)
- Deep enough texture in tyre (longer life again)
If you think some of my thoughts and preferences of improving life time and
reducing weight while keeping an acceptable grip are weird or basically wrong,
please correct me and tell your ideas of rationalising the buying of a lot
more expensive kevlar tyres. Also, please suggest tyres that comply these
specs/specs of your preference with sound arguments.
>The fatter stanchions don't flex as much, especially under braking.
>Stanchion flex causes stiction, and keeps the forks from working
>smoothly.
So even if RS 21R has more travel (60mm) than Comp XC (50.8mm) it may not be
able to take full advantage of it because of stiction? I have not heard of
anyone comparing these two forks based on _personal_ experience. Has anyone
ridden both these forks enough to tell the main differencies in feel and
function?
I also need to know, whether it is possible to attach a front mud guard to
Comp XC. (This issue may not be of such importance to our Moab based
off-roaders but try any coastal regioners) I have seen a product called
'CRUDE CATCHER' but I am not convinced it works well at all. I have been
discussing this matter with the guy in the LBS and he said it is possible
to attach a mud guard in 21R. There is a hole for the screw in the break
arch. When discussing about Comp XC he said "it can be made possible. We
(the shop) just drill a hole in the break arch for the screw." This would
obviously void the warranty. Any ideas how to attach a mud guard in Comp XC
without tampering the construction of the fork? Would the break arch retain
its strength and stiffness if a small hole was drilled through it? Has
anyone done so?
>I thought the Mach 5 had a stack like the Judy or Manitou 4, but I may
>be wrong.
Are you now referring to Comp XC? I have an Answer Manitou ad in front of me
and in it there is a picture of one big elastomer bumber. The guy in LBS
told me the next model, Mach5 Pro has a stack of bumbers in each leg.
I wonder, whether it would be possible to upgrade a Comp XC to Mach5 Pro or
even Mach5 SX at a later date?
I have been following many international bike mags lately (well, US, British
and Swedish mainly) to find an article about Manitou Mach5 forks and how
they compare to equivalent Rock Shoxs. I would be glad for such information,
especially for Mach5 Comp XC.
If you have something to comment, please send me a carbon copy of that post
also. Recently I have had trouble to get my news server recognize postings
sent from this site.
Cheers,
Jussi
---
//////
lsa...@utu.fi (o o )
----------------oOOo(_)--oOOo---
Jussi Sääski
Rehtorinpellonkatu 4-6 B 504
SF 20500 Turku F18LAND
Voice/Fax 358-921-2505621
Faron Faulk
>This will be my first suspension fork and I would like to know all
>relevant aspects before I make a deal. Tell me your experiences with
>these two forks!
i've had my q21r for ~6 months and it's been awesome so far.
faron