I don't think I got a Cannondale DD60 Headshock
Brad Herder
Hi,
I bought a Cannondale F700 (Olympic edition) with a DD60 Headshock,
at least that's what it says on the fork leg.
You are supposed to be able to adjust the pre-load using a 4mm allen
wrench to turn a screw which is underneath the lock-out knob on top.
If I take off the lockout knob and look down in there, I see something
that looks like the top of a shraeder (sp?) valve stem deep down in
there.
Am I crazy or did I get screwed?
When I first looked at the bike, it was the only one that didn't have
it's suspension put together. A day later, that had stuck something
in there, but I'm not sure what it is.
Does anyone have any guesses?
And can I inflate it to be alittle stiffer? And how?
How do I take this thing apart anyway? It looks like there are a some
things I could use a spanner-wrench (I think it's called) on and maybe
unscrew it out, but would like to know how.
Thanks,
Brad Herder.
herderb@consl080_004pf.psf.lmco.com
Roscoe
In article <5261lt$p...@tel.den.mmc.com> her...@unconfigured.xvnews.domain (Brad Herder) writes:
>I bought a Cannondale F700 (Olympic edition) with a DD60 Headshock.
>You are supposed to be able to adjust the pre-load using a 4mm allen
>wrench to turn a screw which is underneath the lock-out knob on top.
So did you even TRY to put a 4mm allen down there and turn it?? If you do,
it will work. There's definitely not a valve stem down there..not even if you
*accidentally* got a Fatty. BTW, as far as I know, this adjusts the dampening
and not the preload, but that could be wrong. Anyone else?
>Am I crazy or did I get screwed?
Not to be a pester, but you got screwed...not by your shock, but by buying
the "Olympic edition" F700. I hear it has cheaper parts than the stock 700,
but has a higher price.
Ed Degagne
In article <margeson.2....@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
marge...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Roscoe) wrote:
>In article <5261lt$p...@tel.den.mmc.com> her...@unconfigured.xvnews.domain
(Brad Herder) writes:
>
>>I bought a Cannondale F700 (Olympic edition) with a DD60 Headshock.
>>You are supposed to be able to adjust the pre-load using a 4mm allen
>>wrench to turn a screw which is underneath the lock-out knob on top.
> So did you even TRY to put a 4mm allen down there and turn it?? If you
>do, it will work. There's definitely not a valve stem down there..not even
>if you *accidentally* got a Fatty. BTW, as far as I know, this adjusts the
>dampening and not the preload, but that could be wrong. Anyone else?
As far as I know, the DD60 is supposed to be the same as the DD50 with the
exception of some increased travel. _IF_thats the case, then turning the
4mm allen bolt clockwise will increase preload. As far as I know, the DD50
and DD60 (I have the DD50) are still the same internals, therefore,
dampening is not adjustable.
>>Am I crazy or did I get screwed?
> Not to be a pester, but you got screwed...not by your shock, but by
>buying the "Olympic edition" F700. I hear it has cheaper parts than the
>stock 700, but has a higher price.
I've seen both bikes side by side at a LBS. Spec'd exactly the same, just
a different "Special Edition" paint job. It was exactly $150 more than the
regular F700. He didn't get "screwed", he just paid a bit more for the
paint. Still a sweet ride.
Peace,
Ed Degagne
Brian Shaffer
OK. the dd50 has adjustable preload *and* dampening. the big black knob
on top adjusts dampening. take that knob off and you can adjust preload
with an allen key as you described.
ED WROTE
> 4mm allen bolt clockwise will increase preload. As far as I know, the DD50
> and DD60 (I have the DD50) are still the same internals, therefore,
> dampening is not adjustable.
>
> Peace,
>
> Ed Degagne
--
____ ____ __ _ __ _ ____
( _ \ ( _ \ ( ) /_\ ( \| ) ( __)
) _ < ) / )( / _ \ ) ( )_ \
(____/ (_)\_) (__) (_) (_) (_|\__) (____)
Mark Chandler
marge...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Roscoe) writes:
>In article <5261lt$p...@tel.den.mmc.com> her...@unconfigured.xvnews.domain (Brad Herder) writes:
>>I bought a Cannondale F700 (Olympic edition) with a DD60 Headshock.
>>You are supposed to be able to adjust the pre-load using a 4mm allen
>>wrench to turn a screw which is underneath the lock-out knob on top.
> So did you even TRY to put a 4mm allen down there and turn it?? If you do,
>it will work. There's definitely not a valve stem down there..not even if you
>*accidentally* got a Fatty. BTW, as far as I know, this adjusts the dampening
>and not the preload, but that could be wrong. Anyone else?
The DD60's lockout knob is held on my a 4mm allen. Remove that fitting,
and insert a 3mm allen in that now-vacant hole. When you feel the allen
engage, turn it clockwise to increase *preload* (counter-clockwise to
decrease preload).
Fattys have a 5-position damping dial that controls slow-speed compression
damping. It's held on with a 3mm allen on the *side* of the dial.
FWIW, I have the DD50, DD60, and Fatty (as well as MountainSpeed's
spring kit). The DD60 is the best, IMO.
--
Mark Chandler Concord, California m...@crl.com
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Check out http://www.crl.com/~mpc for mtb-related info
Ed Degagne
Brian,
You are wrong again. Taken directly from the Cannondale owners
manual (for the DD50), it states explicitly that there is no adjustment for
dampening, period. The big black knob on the top, for the DD50, is a two
position knob that turns the front suspension "on" or "off" thats it.
There is no in between. Valving for dampening is factory set and not user
adjustable. On the Fatty dampening is adjustable via a 5 position knob, on
the DD50 and DD60 it is not.
Do you even have a Headshok unit? If lf you did, you would know
this.
Peace,
Ed Degagne
In article <324828...@HUB.ofthe.NET>,
Mr.Jav
Ed Degagne wrote:
>
> Brian,
>
> You are wrong again. Taken directly from the Cannondale owners
> manual (for the DD50), it states explicitly that there is no adjustment for
> dampening, period. The big black knob on the top, for the DD50, is a two
> position knob that turns the front suspension "on" or "off" thats it.
> There is no in between. Valving for dampening is factory set and not user
> adjustable. On the Fatty dampening is adjustable via a 5 position knob, on
> the DD50 and DD60 it is not.
> Do you even have a Headshok unit? If lf you did, you would know
> this.
>
> Peace,
>
> Ed Degagne
rate of compression and rebound, the lockout is an extreme adjustment of
damping. Who cares what you call it? It's still the only fork on the
market with this feature. BTW, you can also change oil weight to change
the rate of motion and (for all those who've never tried), under the
knob is a preload adjuster. I'm tired of Headshok owners who claim
their fork is too soft and when you ask them about preload, they look at
you with pinwheels in their eyes (8-p
True, the Fatty is very adjustable with shims, a slow speed knob, oil
viscosity, and air spring preload. It's a sweet fork made even sweeter
for 97 with 70mm of travel!!
Csaba G. Kormendy
m...@crl.com (Mark Chandler) writes:
>
> FWIW, I have the DD50, DD60, and Fatty (as well as MountainSpeed's
> spring kit). The DD60 is the best, IMO.
Could you please elaborate a little more on this? I'm looking at some
Cannondales right now and was wondering about the differences in the
Headshocks. For instance, do you find yourself using the "on-the-fly"
adjustabiliy of the Fatty? How do they compare as far as setup and
maintenance?
Csaba
Ed Degagne
In article <324AB9...@worldnet.att.net>,
"Mr.Jav" <Mr....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Ed Degagne wrote:
>>
>> Brian,
>>
>> You are wrong again. Taken directly from the Cannondale owners
>> manual (for the DD50), it states explicitly that there is no adjustment
>> for dampening, period. The big black knob on the top, for the DD50, is
>> a two position knob that turns the front suspension "on" or "off" thats
>> it. There is no in between. Valving for dampening is factory set and
>> not user adjustable. On the Fatty dampening is adjustable via a 5
>> position knob, on the DD50 and DD60 it is not.
>> Do you even have a Headshok unit? If lf you did, you would know
>> this.
>>
>> Peace,
>>
>> Ed Degagne
>The lockout knob is kind of a damping adjuster. If damping controls the
>rate of compression and rebound, the lockout is an extreme adjustment of
>damping.
Are you an idiot? The question was if the thing was adjustable. Turning
the thing on and off is far from being adjustable, now isn't it? If you
want to be super technical, dampening adjustments control the rate of
compression, and rebound adjustments control the amount of rebound. On
some suspenders you can do both. Neither is possible with the DD50/DD60.
>Who cares what you call it?
I'd call it an on and off knob, before I called it any type of dampening
adjustment. No brainer!
>It's still the only fork on the market with this feature. BTW, you can
>also change oil weight to change the rate of motion and (for all those
>who've never tried), under the knob is a preload adjuster. I'm tired of
>Headshok owners who claim their fork is too soft and when you ask them
>about preload, they look at you with pinwheels in their eyes (8-p
We already were discussing the preload adjustment under the knob. Someone
was refering to this as the dampening adjuster, which is what started the
conversation at hand. Catch up already, will ya? :^)
As far as changing the oil in a DD50 cartridge, I'm not so sure it can be
done. I was under the impression that it was a sealed unit. After looking
at mine, I didn't see anything that changed my mind on this.
>True, the Fatty is very adjustable with shims, a slow speed knob, oil
>viscosity, and air spring preload. It's a sweet fork made even sweeter
>for 97 with 70mm of travel!!
Almost 3 inches, WOW!!! :^) Same frame design, but increased travel,
hummm. Along with that comes increased BB height (which was already high),
a slightly relaxed head tube angle, etc. I'm a C'Dale fan and I own one
myself, BUT I think C'Dale couldv'e done a better job. Just slapping on a
longer steerer tube to increase travel without reflecting that change in
the geometry of the frame? All for not even a 1" increase in travel?
Pretty lame.
Peace,
Ed Degagne
Brian Shaffer
Ed Degagne wrote:
> Are you an idiot?
> As far as changing the oil in a DD50 cartridge, I'm not so sure it can be
> done. I was under the impression that it was a sealed unit. After looking
> at mine, I didn't see anything that changed my mind on this.
The oil in the cartridge can be changed ed. you can remove those white
caps with a pin spanner and the oil comes out. then put in whatever
weight oil you want.
are you an idiot! had to say it:)
Ed Degagne
In article <324BDF...@HUB.ofthe.NET>,
Brian Shaffer <bsha...@HUB.ofthe.NET> wrote:
>Ed Degagne wrote:
>
>> Are you an idiot?
>
>> As far as changing the oil in a DD50 cartridge, I'm not so sure it can
>> be done. I was under the impression that it was a sealed unit. After
>> looking at mine, I didn't see anything that changed my mind on this.
>
>The oil in the cartridge can be changed ed. you can remove those white
>caps with a pin spanner and the oil comes out. then put in whatever
>weight oil you want.
>
>are you an idiot! had to say it:)
That is entirely okay...its all in fun bud!! :^)
Thanks for the info though.
Peace,
Ed
Robert Horvatich
> >Ed Degagne wrote:
> Are you an idiot? The question was if the thing was adjustable. Turning
> the thing on and off is far from being adjustable, now isn't it? If you
> want to be super technical, dampening adjustments control the rate of
> compression, and rebound adjustments control the amount of rebound. On
> some suspenders you can do both. Neither is possible with the DD50/DD60.
>
> >Who cares what you call it?
>
> I'd call it an on and off knob, before I called it any type of dampening
> adjustment. No brainer!
> As far as changing the oil in a DD50 cartridge, I'm not so sure it can be
> done. I was under the impression that it was a sealed unit. After looking
> at mine, I didn't see anything that changed my mind on this.
You can change the oil in the DD50. The damping cartridge is removed with a
castle tool. The top of the damping cartridge is plastic with two holes for a
pin spanner. This how you access the small amount of oil in there and the
damping shims. Damping is adjustable on this unit in the sense that the shims
can be modified. I agree, a more accurate description of the knob on top for
the DD50 is an on/off knob.
> Almost 3 inches, WOW!!! :^) Same frame design, but increased travel,
> hummm. Along with that comes increased BB height (which was already high),
> a slightly relaxed head tube angle, etc. I'm a C'Dale fan and I own one
> myself, BUT I think C'Dale couldv'e done a better job. Just slapping on a
> longer steerer tube to increase travel without reflecting that change in
> the geometry of the frame? All for not even a 1" increase in travel?
> Pretty lame.
Not even 1" of differenc and your complaining about some sort of
performance degredation you have yet to quanitfy. I would take the
extra travel and enjoy the ride.
Rob
--
email: |"You can't take life too seriously,
rhor...@ae0119.pd8.ford.com | you don't get out alive." Buggs Bunny
Camiel Rouweler
dav...@mnc.com (Ed Degagne) wrote:
>>True, the Fatty is very adjustable with shims, a slow speed knob, oil
>>viscosity, and air spring preload. It's a sweet fork made even sweeter
>>for 97 with 70mm of travel!!
>
>hummm. Along with that comes increased BB height (which was already high),
>a slightly relaxed head tube angle, etc. I'm a C'Dale fan and I own one
>myself, BUT I think C'Dale couldv'e done a better job. Just slapping on a
>longer steerer tube to increase travel without reflecting that change in
>the geometry of the frame? All for not even a 1" increase in travel?
>Pretty lame.
has not changed? AFAIK the '97 models with the DD60 all have a CAAD2
frame while the Fatty equipped bikes have the CAAD3 frame. Maybe
they changed the geometry for the CAAD3 frames to accomodate the
increased travel. And maybe that's the reason why the '97 F700 does
not have a CAAD3 frame, while the '96 did.
--
Camiel Rouweler (cami...@surf.phys.tue.nl)
"I don't want to be called 'boy' anymore. I find that term
sexist and demeaning!". "How do you want to be called then?"
"I want to be called 'chromosomally advantaged youth." (Calvin&Hobbes)
Mark Chandler
I'm in the midst of doing a lengthy comparison of these for my web
site, so I'll give you the Reader's Digest version.
Fatty: Progressive feel. Great for big hits, OK on middle, fair on
small stuff. Changing spring rate (air pressure) requires a hi-pressure
schrader pump (100-160+ psi). Five-position damping dial changes
slow-speed compression damping (contrary to what _Mountain Biker_
claimed in their review). I either ran the damping all the way off
or all the way on. It's subtle, and you really only notice the diffs
when climbing out-of-the-saddle, or in slow-speed techie stuff. Even then,
it's quite subtle.
DD50: Progressive feel. Actually, what happens is the MCU just packs
up, and you lose travel near the end of the stroke. The chief complaints
with this system are (and I agree): too hard for lighter riders, and too
soft for heavier ones. I like my suspension hyper-active, and actually
wished for a softer MCU (and I'm 200 pounds). I've used the on/off
damping/lockout dial maybe half-a-dozen times. My bike is never ridden
on pavement, however.
DD60: Linear, but somewhat progressive near the end of the stroke. While
I've ridden a DD60-equipped bike, the majority of my experience is with
the DD60 spring/MCU kit retrofitted into my DD50. Is active on small,
medium, and big hits. There are three spring rates to choose from, but
each uses the same MCU. The MCU fits inside the spring, but is much
softer (and smaller) than the one used in the DD50. Reacts to preload
much better than the DD50. You can also shorten the MCU to increase
sensitivity. I'm 200 pounds and find the med/blue spring kit just about
perfect for the majority of my riding. For really nasty and/or high-speed
DH-style riding, I'd put the red/hard spring in (with a shortened MCU).
I have both kits and the necessary C-dale "castle" tool, and changing
springs is a 15 minute job.
Fatty70: I've ridden one of these, but only briefly. You really notice
the extra 20mm of travel. Still progressive, but seems like the damping is
lighter. You can set decent sag, and not lose a lot of travel.
MountainSpeed: Uses a "progressive" single coil spring (made by Eibach).
Doesn't use the MCU like the DD60, so you need to really pick the right
spring rate. They also don't recommend more than 4 revolutions of pre-load,
so finding the ideal spring may be somewhat harder for "in-between'ers."
The feel is similar to the DD60, but doesn't get as progressive near the
absolute end. Cost is almost twice as much as a DD60 kit.
Maintenance-wise, the Fattys supposedly require more care than the
DD systems. They recommend chaing the oil every so often, etc.
They also allow finer tuning of the damping, via a system of shims, etc.
Other than that, follow the instructions, keep your boot clean and in-place.
Put a drop of oil on the upper headset bearing, etc. Pretty simple, really.
The carts can only be changed with the C-dale castle tool. Some folks
have reported that these are hard to get, but since I got mine directly
from C-dale, I can't comment.
Note that DD60 kits will with DD50 forks. You don't get the 60mm
of travel, but you do get *more* useful travel. This is because
the 60's spring doesn't pack-up like the 50's MCU.
Questions, comments, rants? E-mail me.
Also, check my web site (see sig for URL) for upcoming articles on
HeadShok and SVA upgrades. The Interbike coverage is complete, too.
>Csaba
Mark Chandler
Camiel Rouweler <cami...@surf.phys.tue.nl> writes:
>dav...@mnc.com (Ed Degagne) wrote:
>
>>>True, the Fatty is very adjustable with shims, a slow speed knob, oil
>>>viscosity, and air spring preload. It's a sweet fork made even sweeter
>>>for 97 with 70mm of travel!!
>>
>>Almost 3 inches, WOW!!! :^) Same frame design, but increased travel,
>>hummm. Along with that comes increased BB height (which was already high),
>>a slightly relaxed head tube angle, etc. I'm a C'Dale fan and I own one
>>myself, BUT I think C'Dale couldv'e done a better job. Just slapping on a
>>longer steerer tube to increase travel without reflecting that change in
>>the geometry of the frame? All for not even a 1" increase in travel?
>>Pretty lame.
>
>At the risk of being called an idiot by you: who says the geometry
>has not changed? AFAIK the '97 models with the DD60 all have a CAAD2
>frame while the Fatty equipped bikes have the CAAD3 frame. Maybe
>they changed the geometry for the CAAD3 frames to accomodate the
>increased travel. And maybe that's the reason why the '97 F700 does
>not have a CAAD3 frame, while the '96 did.
The fork's crown has been redesigned. The steerer isn't just "longer."
This info came straight from the HeadShok product manager. Imagine that.
>--
>Camiel Rouweler (cami...@surf.phys.tue.nl)
>"I don't want to be called 'boy' anymore. I find that term
>sexist and demeaning!". "How do you want to be called then?"
>"I want to be called 'chromosomally advantaged youth." (Calvin&Hobbes)
--
Mr.Jav
> As far as changing the oil in a DD50 cartridge, I'm not so sure it can be
> done. I was under the impression that it was a sealed unit. After looking
> at mine, I didn't see anything that changed my mind on this.
>
> Almost 3 inches, WOW!!! :^) Same frame design, but increased travel,
> hummm. Along with that comes increased BB height (which was already high),
> a slightly relaxed head tube angle, etc. I'm a C'Dale fan and I own one
> myself, BUT I think C'Dale couldv'e done a better job. Just slapping on a
> longer steerer tube to increase travel without reflecting that change in
> the geometry of the frame? All for not even a 1" increase in travel?
> Pretty lame.
>
> Peace,
>
> Ed Degagne
FYI, a look at the 97 catalog would show you that the frame geometry
doesn't need adjusting for a FATTY. THe increase in travel is possible
by lowering the needle-bearing assembly into the crown, then
machining the crown to accomodate for the lowered air valve. You should
also try rebuilding (changing the oil) a DD50, as I've done many. Not
impossible. Also, with the advent of longer travel forks and travel
upgrade kits for Rock Shox, the Cannondale head tube height seems about
average now.
Mr.Jav
> Ed Degagne wrote:
>
> > Are you an idiot?
>
> > done. I was under the impression that it was a sealed unit. After looking
> > at mine, I didn't see anything that changed my mind on this.
>
> caps with a pin spanner and the oil comes out. then put in whatever
> weight oil you want.
>
> are you an idiot! had to say it:)
Thanks for being another enlightened Headshok owner! BTW, so it doesn't
go unsaid, make sure to push out the little brass brad as this is your
bleed hole. The DD60 will have a screw for this job (so as not to lose
blood in the process or lose the brad!).
Brad Herder
In article <52p2f3$6...@crl.crl.com>, m...@crl.com (Mark Chandler) writes:
> cs...@asu.edu (Csaba G. Kormendy) writes:
>
>
> DD50: Progressive feel. Actually, what happens is the MCU just packs
> up, and you lose travel near the end of the stroke. The chief complaints
> with this system are (and I agree): too hard for lighter riders, and too
> soft for heavier ones. I like my suspension hyper-active, and actually
> wished for a softer MCU (and I'm 200 pounds). I've used the on/off
> damping/lockout dial maybe half-a-dozen times.
After having now spent a month or so riding my bike with a DD60. I find I
lock out the shock alot more often than I did in the beginning, even in the
woods. It's so easy to do. I now lock it out on almost all climbs that aren't
too rough and that's most of them. If I don't lock it out and stand late in
a climb without locking it out, it's such a soft noodle, it really feels terrible,
tons of energy is lost compressing it.
Locking it out at the beginning of a climb really helps me. I was always too
weak or my legs got too fatigued just sitting while trying to keep up to my
friends. Now I stand alot more. I find it relieves my legs (by using different
muscles). I've also gotten alot better at not spinning out on stuff while
standing and I'm doing better than I used to as far as keeping up with my
friends.
On the downhills, the DD60 is alittle softer than I'd like but is a huge
improvement over anything else I've ever ridden (two different Maintou's
with bumpers or speed springs). It feels especially nice when landing
after going air-borne - Oh, it's so soft and there's no "stiction" at all.
I have still yet to find out if I can adjust the pre-load since it looks alot
like a shraeder valve stem inside there so I'm not touching it until after I
do a 50 mile race this weekend. Then, maybe I'll stick an allen wrench in there.
If it goes flat, I'll take it to the shop. If I can actually adjust it, I'll
try to up the pre-load.
Anyway - I'm one happy Cannondale owner!
Brad.