ROCK SHOX Judy spring conversion
Manny Pires
cartridge in favor of a coil spring. Has anyone in net land tried this
or know of some one who has?
Rich Shiba
I've talked to a couple of folks who've junked the
elastomer and made the move to coil springs.
The two main manufacturer's i've seen so far are
Speed Springs from Mountain Speed and springs by
White Bros.
Speed Springs are out now, and were reviewed in the
Nov. MBA (for what it's worth). The big knock on
the Speed Springs right now is that they don't appear
to be made of the best wire and experience some lateral
deflection when compressed. This has been causing a
certain amount of wear on the inside of the forks...
probably not enough evidence to say if this is problematic,
but it sounds like it may be.
White Bros. springs aren't out yet (sometime next month
is the target i believe). I talked to the folks at White,
and they picked a very high grade wire and did alot of
testing with an eye on lateral run out. They feel their
choice of wire and design does not have the lateral problem.
Speed Springs add 90-100 grams to your fork and cost ~$50.
White Bros. add 50-60 g. and have a sugg. retail of $59.
Another interesting thing is the emergence of aftermarket
damping cartidges for the Judy.
Right now Risse has one that seems to be getting good
reviews. It's a rebound damper as opposed to the RockShox
compression damper. It's CNC'd Al and appears to be a
much higher quality unit than stock. Sugg. retail $125.
I've heard that this upgrade alone makes the biggest diffence
of any Judy mod...
White Bros. has an Al body and improved seals you can outfit
your Judy with (you still use the RockShox valving). This is
something like $60. White also has a full on cartridge (much
like the Risse) in the works. Release date is Dec 95, and
it's supposed to be adjustable for both compression and rebound.
Not sure if that's all one cart or 2 separate like the 96 DH.
Have to wait and see...
-Rich
--
_________________________________________________________________
o Richard Shiba o Silicon Graphics, Mtn View CA o sh...@sgi.com o
Philip Leonard Ball
forks in feb If you dont do it right it makes awfull noises and the spring rate
is constant (unless you get rising rate springs) so if you want sag you also
get bottom out. No shops I know actually sell them yet but in canada they may
have something. By all means have a go but dont blame me if it's crap and
scratches the inside of the legs
Colton N Brown
: as36...@orion.yorku.ca (Manny Pires) writes:
: | Just came across an article that suggested gutting the elastomer
: | cartridge in favor of a coil spring. Has anyone in net land tried this
: | or know of some one who has?
: |
: |
: I've talked to a couple of folks who've junked the
: elastomer and made the move to coil springs.
i'm thinking about getting the white bro's springs, but don't they allow
for like 4' of travel, and wouldn't that cause problems with the outer
casing smashing into the spreader bar at the top of the fork in the event
of a big hit? is there anything to prevent over-travel?
CNB
Ming Dong
(Colton N Brown) wrote:
>i'm thinking about getting the white bro's springs, but don't they allow
>for like 4' of travel, and wouldn't that cause problems with the outer
>casing smashing into the spreader bar at the top of the fork in the event
>of a big hit? is there anything to prevent over-travel?
The amount of travel is determined by the cartridge and neutral shaft.
They affect travel by limiting how much the fork can extend, the
"top out" position.
Bottoming out occurs when the stancions hit the bottom of the outer
legs. There is a bumper in the bottom of the leg to prevent damage.
So, the springs to not affect total travel or how the fork bottoms out.
Ming
Ming Dong
<TRS...@psuvm.psu.edu> wrote:
>Actually, bottoming is when the damping piston hits the
>plastic endcap and knocks it loose. That's why the
>cartridges keep blowing--the bottom-out system is not
>designed to take stress off the flimsy press-fit endcap
>in the damping cylinder. After a few hits the cartridge comes
>apart and the oil leaks out.
If that were the case, they could simply make the bottom-out
bumper thicker couldn't they?
Lets hear from all those riders with "blown" cartridges.
What is the failure mode? Does the oil leak, from the seal (bottom)
or the press-fit endcap (top)?
Ming
Ming Dong
>My end cap blew out(Bottom Cap). It started to leak a little bit so I removed
>the C-clip to inspect the cartridge. As soon as I compessed the clip the cap
>blew out so hard it knocked the pliers out of my hand, sprayed oil all over me
>and the shop.
I don't know how long you waited before you removed the snap ring,
but the Judy Service Manual warns:
"CAUTION: MAKE SURE THE FORK HAS BEEN AT REST FOR
A MINIMUM OF 15 MINUTES BEFORE REMOVING SNAP RING"
(Just like that, in big bold letters :-)
Ming
Ted S.
>>What is the failure mode? Does the oil leak, from the seal (bottom)
>>or the press-fit endcap (top)?
>>
>the C-clip to inspect the cartridge. As soon as I compessed the clip the cap
>blew out so hard it knocked the pliers out of my hand, sprayed oil all over me
>and the shop.
That's how my first cart. broke too. On my second the endcap actually
popped out while the fork was still assembled! There really ought
to be a better way to secure the endcap in the cartridge (threaded,
maybe?)
I've been calling RS daily for about a week now, still no response.
All I can say is I hope their 1996 cartridges are better (if they
ever send me one), or I'm switching to an EFC.
Ted Stogell trs...@psuvm.psu.edu
Matt O'Toole
>Ted Stogell trs...@psuvm.psu.edu
Guys, did you remove the bumper stack, or at least loosen it, before
attacking the circlip?
Matt O.
Ian Hylands
ming...@netgate.net (Ming Dong) wrote:
>In article <46u6j6$r...@grid.Direct.CA>, ihyl...@Direct.CA (Ian Hylands)
wrote:
>
removed
>>the C-clip to inspect the cartridge. As soon as I compessed the clip the
cap
>>blew out so hard it knocked the pliers out of my hand, sprayed oil all over
me
>>and the shop.
>
>but the Judy Service Manual warns:
>
>"CAUTION: MAKE SURE THE FORK HAS BEEN AT REST FOR
>A MINIMUM OF 15 MINUTES BEFORE REMOVING SNAP RING"
>
>(Just like that, in big bold letters :-)
>
decided to do anything about the problem, a little more than 15 minutes. My
next cartridge just slowly leaked until empty. No damping at all right now,
hope that White Bros. cartridge comes in the mail today!
Ian Hylands
mo...@ix.netcom.com (Matt O'Toole) wrote:
>Ted S. <TRS...@psuvm.psu.edu> wrote:
>
>>>>Lets hear from all those riders with "blown" cartridges.
>>>>What is the failure mode? Does the oil leak, from the seal (bottom)
>>>>or the press-fit endcap (top)?
>>>>
removed
>>>the C-clip to inspect the cartridge. As soon as I compessed the clip the
cap
>>>blew out so hard it knocked the pliers out of my hand, sprayed oil all over
me
>>>and the shop.
>
>>popped out while the fork was still assembled! There really ought
>>to be a better way to secure the endcap in the cartridge (threaded,
>>maybe?)
>
>
>>Ted Stogell trs...@psuvm.psu.edu
>
>Guys, did you remove the bumper stack, or at least loosen it, before
>attacking the circlip?
>
Yeah forks completely dissassembled before removing the c-clip on either side.
Also after the cartridge blew up I had to force the cartridge body out from
the top, and it took a good amount of force to get it out.
Ted S.
I've been sure to take it out but it doesn't really do any good
if the cartridge has already leaked. Once the c-clip is out I've
had to push down from the top of the stanchion with a broomstick
handle to push the cartridge out.
I really don't see how the cartridge's sides can deform since
it's in there so snugly. The only end that is free to
move is the lower end cap. All that retains it is the friction-
fit. The goofy shaped plastic washer underneath the endcap compresses
vertically between the endcap and the bottom of the stancion. This
flexion may be what's allowing the endcaps to work loose. If the
seal(s) in the endcap aren't tight enough to hold oil, that's yet another
problem on top of other ones.
Like Ming said earlier, let's hear from people with broken
cartridges. I'm wondering if the endcap scenario is typical
of all blown cartridges.
Also, it'd be great to hear from owners of Arlo Englud cartridges or
EFC cartridges.... How does the construction compare to Rock Shox's?
Is there a big difference materials or how it's put together?
Maybe even someone at Rock Shox is lurking on usenet and wold be
kind enough to give us an official ruling.... :-)
Ted Stodgell trs...@psuvm.psu.edu
Ian Hylands
MO <ppy...@ppn3.nottts.ac.uk> wrote:
> Is there anyone who ain't sponsered by rock shox with a good word about
>them.....just no one is standing up in their defense....
>
In defence of rock shox the company or someone who likes their Judy's?
Personally I love my forks, and as we're discussing spring conversions the
springs are way better. When they work they work great, then the cartridge
blows up, with or without springs. Just got a White Bros. Cartridge and we'll
see how long it lasts. Nuthin' more to say
MO
them.....just no one is standing up in their defense....
MO
Stuart Davis
hi,
i meet the above criteria and i love my judy xc's. when i first got them i took
the things
apart and was playing with the cartridge when all the oil sprayed out. i put
some finish
line stuff in and they have been fine ever since. i've raced all summer and they
still work
great. i have tried Pace forks and other rock shox and also some marzochi ones
but none of
these match the smoothness and squidgyness of my judys. i now have a long travel
kit to give
them 75mm travel and they are better than sex. (sarcastic comments to
follow....)
is that OK MO?
stu.
Rich Shiba
| Also, it'd be great to hear from owners of Arlo Englud cartridges or
| EFC cartridges.... How does the construction compare to Rock Shox's?
| Is there a big difference materials or how it's put together?
|
Note that the White Bros kit everyone is talking about is
not really a full cartridge replacement, it's an Al body,
a thru-shaft and seals...you still use the RockShox valving.
(that's why it's cheaper than a full cartridge).
I just bought a Risse Gem, which is a full replacement
cartridge. From a purely visual and tactile inspection, it
appears to be a much higher quality unit than the stock RockShox,
but i guess that's expected with most aftermarker replacement
parts like this. It also has a CNC machined body of Al like
the White Bros, but this varies from the RockShox valving in
that it's got adjustable rebound instead of adjustable compression.
Guess it's kind of a religious thing, i talked to some RockShox
folks who say that's a bad idea, but needless to say, Risse
thinks it's a better thing. Everyone i know that's ridden a Gem
says it's the best upgrade you can make to a Judy (makes a more
noticeable difference than springs i'm told). Haven't gotten it
into the fork yet...hafta see for myself.
Also, i talked to the RockShox folks, and obviously they're
aware of the blown cart problem. They wouldn't say much more than
they feel the problem is solved in the 96 cartridge. One noteworthy
thing the RS guy said is that the DH cartridge has an aluminum
body (much like the White Bros or Risse). He actually said he
was hoping they'd use that body for the XC and SL, but it didn't
happen for 96, only the DH's.
Stuart C Davis
> cee...@cee.hw.ac.uk (Stuart Davis) wrote:
>
> >In article <478mnp$f...@griffin.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk>, MO
> ><ppy...@ppn3.nottts.ac.uk> writes:
> >> Is there anyone who ain't sponsered by rock shox with a good word about
> >> them.....just no one is standing up in their defense....
>
> >the things
> >apart and was playing with the cartridge when all the oil sprayed out. i put
> >some finish
> >line stuff in and they have been fine ever since. i've raced all summer and they
> >still work
> >great. i have tried Pace forks and other rock shox and also some marzochi ones
> >but none of
> >these match the smoothness and squidgyness of my judys. i now have a long travel
> >kit to give
> >them 75mm travel and they are better than sex. (sarcastic comments to
> >follow....)
> >is that OK MO?
> >stu.
> JUDY with 3" will be that good, your sex life must stink. But I do
> think Rock Shox will send you a free bottle of shox oil to keep your
> forks "squidgness UP when the cartridge leaks and decal for your
> loyality.
> Have Fun
> Rod
>
hey, sex is great but it just dosen't happen enough. with my judys i can bounce on
them whenever i want...even at 4am if i so care!
stu.