M2 vs M4 vs Easton ultralight KHS
enn
M4 frame. And the difference between M4 and Easton ultralight. Weight,
stiffness, price and so on.
Is M4 worth considering as an alternative to M2. I have to sell the M2
frame anyway.
I sure like the geometry of an M2 frame. So trying to choose ...
Chris Phillipo
enn wrote:
I think the biggest selling point of M4 is that it is not limited in the
way m2 is with regard to how it is shaped and welded. Look at the way the
M4 road bike's seat tube forms tot he rear wheel to see an example of
this. I would ride any of the three you mentioned and not miss the other
two.
--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Ride our island.
http://welcome.to/ramsays.cycle
Andy Caswell
not as harsh as the M2. M4 is Specialized in house alloy, probably 6061 but
I don't know. Easton usually make their alloys from 7000 grade (e.g. Easton
EA70 was 7075T75) 7000 is much stronger when aged & solution treated but has
lower ductility and can corrode in certain forms.
I'd stick to the M2 but if it's broken the M4 should have the same geometry.
It also depends on which manufacturer uses the Easton material.
enn <Enn.R...@mail.ee> wrote in message news:37C259EC...@mail.ee...
Rick Knowlan
> The M4 is aluminium as opposed to a metal matrix of the M2, hence the M4 is
> not as harsh as the M2.
Is it? I test rode an M4 a few weeks ago, and I recall it having metal matrix
stickers on the frame. It was light and quite vibration free.
Tullio
M2 is also aluminum but is a different alloy. The main difference
between the two is that M4 is much easier to work with. The frame
designers have more options with butting, ovalizing, flaring, etc.
Todd Kuzma
Tullio's Big Dog Cyclery
LaSalle, IL
e-mail: tul...@TheRamp.net
Raleigh-Schwinn-Specialized
Bianchi-Waterford-Torelli-GT/Dyno
Burley-Co-Motion
enn
Okey, so the material of M4 better to work with, but let's take the weight
difference. My dealer claimed M4 weights 3,3 lbs. My 19 " M2 '99 weights 3,7 lbs.
If I am correct http://www.universalcycles.com/indexsp.html claim the KHS Easton
ultralight elite tubing frame to weight 3 lbs.
Is it not true or is it the weight of an 15" frame ??
I have heard that M" is even stiffer than "common" alu. But compared to easton - is
it common alu?
Tullio
> Okey, so the material of M4 better to work with, but let's take the weight
> difference. My dealer claimed M4 weights 3,3 lbs. My 19 " M2 '99 weights 3,7 lbs.
> If I am correct http://www.universalcycles.com/indexsp.html claim the KHS Easton
> ultralight elite tubing frame to weight 3 lbs.
> Is it not true or is it the weight of an 15" frame ??
Specialized doesn't release their frame weights (mostly because they
were tired of being compared to companies that lied about their
weights), but the S-Works M4 frame is supposed to be lighter than the
S-Works M2 frame. Based on our work on the frames and what I've been
able to gather from some Specialized folks, I'd guess the weight of the
M4 as getting close to 3 pounds.
The M2 frames have been quite durable, and the M4 is supposed to be even
more durable but we'll have to wait and see. I'd be pretty skeptical of
anything much lighter than the M4 being durable enough for larger riders
on rough terrain.
> I have heard that M" is even stiffer than "common" alu. But compared to easton - is it common alu?
They all use different alloys, but I don't think that they are
significantly different in performance. Maybe a metals guru can provide
more info. In terms of ride quality, that is more a function of the
frame design, and the flexibility of M4 tubing allows the designer more
options than M2. I would not call the M4 harsh, but my 753 Waterford is
smoother.
Dan & Adrienne Garcia
what most people have been making their high-end bikes out of all along.
most easton tubing is 6061. i find it interesting that specialized touted
their m2 as being so much better than all other al out there, and then
switched their high end to what everyone else has been doing. if you can't
beat 'em, join 'em, eh? -dan
Tullio <tul...@TheRamp.net> wrote in message
news:37C6B7...@TheRamp.net...
Chris Phillipo
Dan & Adrienne Garcia wrote:
> I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but m4 is 6061-t6 al, which is
> what most people have been making their high-end bikes out of all along.
> most easton tubing is 6061. i find it interesting that specialized touted
> their m2 as being so much better than all other al out there, and then
> switched their high end to what everyone else has been doing. if you can't
> beat 'em, join 'em, eh? -dan
>
It's more like, if it costs too much to work with it, go to something cheaper.
Chris Phillipo
Dan & Adrienne Garcia wrote:
> I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but m4 is 6061-t6 al, which is
> what most people have been making their high-end bikes out of all along.
> most easton tubing is 6061. i find it interesting that specialized touted
> their m2 as being so much better than all other al out there, and then
> switched their high end to what everyone else has been doing. if you can't
> beat 'em, join 'em, eh? -dan
>
I'm not a metallurgist and I don't pretend to know what all this means, but the
claim that M4 is just 6061 doesn't sit well with me, perhaps someone can
interpret what is in the literature for us: M4 is an alloy of Silicon 1.2%,
Copper 1.0%, Magnesium 1.6% and 0.3% Vanadium with a KSI rating of about 48%
higher than 6061.
Tullio
>
> I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but m4 is 6061-t6 al, which is
> what most people have been making their high-end bikes out of all along.
I do not believe that this is true. The alloy being used is certainly
more common than M2, but the description I have heard of it is quite
different than 6061.
Dan & Adrienne Garcia
Tullio <tul...@TheRamp.net> wrote in message
news:37C6DD...@TheRamp.net...
enn
> According to "bicycling retailer and industry news", m4 = 6061. -dan
So, what You are saying is that the only mystery is the price of an M4.
But what about the different manufacturers. In this case KHS uses easton
ultralight tubing and Specialized uses ..... what tubing - some in house
material like someone has before mentioned?
I suppose there is no difference in work quality when choosing between M4 and
KHS!? Is there.
Chris Phillipo
Dan & Adrienne Garcia wrote:
> According to "bicycling retailer and industry news", m4 = 6061. -dan
>
Care to point out what tests they performed?
Test #1: "Call up receptionist at Specialized and ask what he/she thinks the
material is"
:)
Andy Caswell
"but m4 is 6061-t6 al."
Chris Phillipo wrote:
"M4 is an alloy of Silicon 1.2%, Copper 1.0%, Magnesium 1.6% and 0.3%
Vanadium"
These two statements are contradictory. 6061T6 is a 1%Mg-0.6%Si alloy that
has been solution treated and artificially aged.
Copper imparts ductility to an alloy (easier to profile a tube) and I have
no idea what the vanadium is for, used as a beta phase stabiliser in Ti so
it's possible for a similar reason.
If it were a metal matrix there would be some non-metallics in there,
Alumina or Silica usually.
The mystery remains: what is M4? Does anybody have the answer? Does
anybody actually care? Not me, I just copied a review out of a magazine,
the rest was basic materials science. Hardly worthy of such a long debate.
If you have any burning material science questions just send 'em in. Don't
ask people who work in a bike shop, they only know what they read in a
magazine or from the backs of breakfast cereal packets. Unless of course
they have some materials qualifications, but then why would they be in a
bike shop and not earning a small fortune doing research like me??
Chris Phillipo
Andy Caswell wrote:
> Copper imparts ductility to an alloy (easier to profile a tube) and I have
> no idea what the vanadium is for, used as a beta phase stabiliser in Ti so
> it's possible for a similar reason.
>
> If it were a metal matrix there would be some non-metallics in there,
> Alumina or Silica usually.
>
> The mystery remains: what is M4? Does anybody have the answer? Does
M4 is M4, that about covers it.