bar-end shifters
Jim
I was reading the Trek Web site, and found the 520 comes with bar-end
shifters.
What benefits do the Shimano Dura-Ace bar-end shifters offer, compared
with
modern integrated shifters? Is the 520 the only modern bicycle equipped
with
bar-end shifters?
Thanks in advance.
-Jim
Gary Jacobson
"Jim" <j2j...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1136514049.3...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> What benefits do the Shimano Dura-Ace bar-end shifters offer, compared
> with
> modern integrated shifters? Is the 520 the only modern bicycle equipped
> with
> bar-end shifters?
There are still quite a few bar end shifter hold outs. Not that anything is
wrong with Ergo and the Shimano and soon to be SRAM equivilents, but bar end
shifters offer the following:
1. More choice in brake levers and shifters.
2. In a crash bar ends are protected and you are less likely to need to
replace them. Brake levers can be cheap to replace.
3. Actually if money isn't an issue, I think Campy 10 bar ends and their
carbon brake levers weigh less than Chorus Ergo. (Not a good reason to
choose bar ends.)
4. It can be good to lift your hands once in a while from the bar to shift.
You have to move your hands around anyway, so why not do it for a purpose
other than
to give them a break from a tiring placement.
5. Maybe bar ends are probably less likely to get gummed up with mud, and if
they are, or the indexing feature fails for some other reason you can use
them in friction mode.
There are other touring bikes and cross bikes with bar end shifters besides
the Trek 520. Cost can be a consideration when manufacturers spec bikes.
Don't think that for 'cross racing there are any advantages to bar ends, nor
for road racing. Tourists and others who like functional, simple equipment
are more likely to be bar end adherents.
One way to look at this is to ask, "Except for racing, is there a reason to
use integrated levers/shifters?"
Many points of view and it boils down to what you are comfortable with. I
run evrything from from Campy 10 Ergo to Suntour Barcons on my bikes. If I
had to live with only one technology, it would be bar ends.
Gary Jacobson
Rosendale, NY
Luke
<j2j...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Here are a few benefits of bar-end shifters :
a) should they need to be replaced, they're more economical than
brifters[1]
b) Shimano DA/Ultegra rear bar-end shifters offers both index and
friction mode. This is convenient should you bend your rear derailleur
hanger or damage the rear derailleur itself, both circumstances which
can wreak havoc with indexed shifting.
c) I find bar-end shifters are more durable, having a simpler, more
robust mechanism (less parts to break). Not sure if this is
representative of other Shimano brifters, but in heavy rain my (soaked)
Tiagras frequently skip (fail to retract cable) on the down-shift,
while the action of the bar-end shifters' indexed shifting is much more
precise and positive in all conditions.
d) The left bar-end shifter (friction only) allows for very accurate
trimming of the front derailleur.
e) On a more esoteric note, a single sweep of a bar-end shifter can
up-shift multiple gears; Shimanos brifters (my Tiagra/Shimano 600, at
least) can only up-shift one gear at time. I'm uncertain whether this
limitation applies to newer incarnations of Ultegra or DA.
In short, bar-end shifters emphasize durability, versatility (those
with indexed and friction modes) and economy; they're more suited to
the demands of touring or commuting. I'm not sure if the 520 is the
only 'modern'(?) bike equipped with bar-end shifters, but almost any
bike with drop bars is a candidate - and with the addition of Pauls
Thumbies, MTBs too can be so equipped.
Luke
1.
brifter: integrated brake/shifter unit
frkr...@gmail.com
Jim wrote:
> Hello there,
>
> I was reading the Trek Web site, and found the 520 comes with bar-end
> shifters.
> What benefits do the Shimano Dura-Ace bar-end shifters offer, compared
> with
> modern integrated shifters?
In addition to the answers others have given, I'll add:
I can't stand having anything on my bike that I can't take apart and
repair with relative ease. There should be a difference between a bike
and a Swiss watch.
- Frank Krygowski
Benjamin Lewis
> I was reading the Trek Web site, and found the 520 comes with bar-end
> shifters. What benefits do the Shimano Dura-Ace bar-end shifters offer,
> compared with modern integrated shifters? Is the 520 the only modern
> bicycle equipped with bar-end shifters?
I believe it's almost entirely a question of personal preference. I find
bar end shifters the nicest to use, but others will disagree.
Here are some things to consider, but not all may be true:
- if a bar-end shifter needs replacing, the brake lever probably won't need
to be replaced as well, and conversely.
- with integrated shifters, you can shift with your hands on the
hoods/hooks (I don't see this as an advantage; racers may.)
- with bar-ends, you have visual/tactile feedback regarding the gear you're
in (I don't see this as an advantage either).
- some think bar-end shifters are less likely to be fatally damaged during
a long ride/tour.
- some bar-end shifters can be toggled between indexed/friction mode. I
have such a shifter, but it has never gone out of adjustment during a
ride, so I've never used the friction mode.
- some people may find the hoods on sti/ergo more comfortable that regular
brake hoods.
- bar-end shifters are elegant and aesthetically pleasing; sti/ergo are
ugly devil-spawned monstrosities.
--
Benjamin Lewis
Now is the time for all good men to come to.
-- Walt Kelly
Gary Jacobson
"Benjamin Lewis" <bcl...@alumni.sfu.ca> wrote in message
news:87fyo2q...@alumni.sfu.ca...
> j2j...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>>What benefits do bar-end shifters offer,
>> compared with modern integrated shifters?
> - with bar-ends, you have visual/tactile feedback regarding the gear
> you're
> in (I don't see this as an advantage either).
I forgot about this one. I find bar end shifters great at nigth as I can
feel the levers and get a sense where I'm at on the chain rings and cogs.
Gary Jacobson
Rosendale, NY
Ted Bennett
I, for one, would hate to see bar-end shifters to go the way of the
dodo. While not quite as slick as brifters (you do have to move your
hand to shift) they do include good things like less cost, more
resistance to damage, an ability to switch to friction shift, and
usefulness for handlebars of other than drop persuasions.
No they're not dead yet, Jim.
--
Ted Bennett
Johnny Sunset
Ted Bennett wrote:
>
> I, for one, would hate to see bar-end shifters to go the way of the
> dodo. While not quite as slick as brifters (you do have to move your
I use my thumbs to move the bar-end levers without moving my hands.
--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
Benjamin Lewis
> Ted Bennett wrote:
>>
>> I, for one, would hate to see bar-end shifters to go the way of the
>> dodo. While not quite as slick as brifters (you do have to move your
>> hand to shift)....
>
> I use my thumbs to move the bar-end levers without moving my hands.
I've used my water bottle to move the bar-end levers on occasion.
Ken Pisichko
> Is the 520 the only modern bicycle equipped with bar-end shifters?
Greenspeed trikes are not exactly bicycles, but they come with bar-end
shifters.
Hank Wirtz
> Johnny Sunset wrote:
>> Ted Bennett wrote:
>>>
>>> I, for one, would hate to see bar-end shifters to go the way of the
>>> dodo. While not quite as slick as brifters (you do have to move your
>>> hand to shift)....
>>
>> I use my thumbs to move the bar-end levers without moving my hands.
>
> I've used my water bottle to move the bar-end levers on occasion.
>
I've used my knee to shift my bar-ends a few times. Only once or twice was
it on purpose. That said, it was not while actually riding, it was walking
it over a curb.
I have friction bar-ends (Rivendell's excellent ones based on Superbe Pro
DTs) on one bike and Ergos on another, and I like both just fine. I say
that as someone who hates DT shifters. I'm surprised how much I still like
the friction ones after getting indexing on all my other bikes.
Johnny Sunset
The Shimano bar-end shifters are much simpler than STI or Campy Ergo,
and therefore more reliable.
The bar-end in friction mode is much better at shifting between large
differences on the front chainrings than either STI or Rabid-Fire
(sic). It will easily handle a 52-42-24 combination in front (or even
54-44-24 on one bike I rode).
The friction mode will still allow for decent shifting if the rear
derailleur gets knocked out of alignment.
All three of the above reasons are beneficial for touring use.
Nate Knutson
Jim wrote:
> Hello there,
>
> I was reading the Trek Web site, and found the 520 comes with bar-end
> shifters.
> What benefits do the Shimano Dura-Ace bar-end shifters offer, compared
> with
> modern integrated shifters?
They last more or less indefinetely whereas STI's die, sometimes fairly
abruptly. Also, the fact that the right has a friction mode and the
left is friction only makes them more reliable in a lot of other ways
that sometimes prove relevant when you're screwed if you can't shift.
And front indexing pretty much always sucks. Shi bar-ends plus the
higher end Shi aero levers (which are the most expensive I think are
made right now except for Campy) are also about the same price as Sora
STI's, which are kinda jank. Bar-ends make a lot of sense for most
bikes and riders.
Is the 520 the only modern bicycle equipped
> with
> bar-end shifters?
It's among the only modern US-distributed touring bikes with them,
which is pretty much ridiculous and backwards. I'm not sure how true
that is elsewhere. I've always assumed the main reason why bar-ends
even exist anymore is that Tri/TT bikes use them on the ends of their
aerobars.
> Thanks in advance.
>
> -Jim
M-gineering
> Hello there,
>
> I was reading the Trek Web site, and found the 520 comes with bar-end
> shifters.
> What benefits do the Shimano Dura-Ace bar-end shifters offer, compared
> with
> modern integrated shifters?
among all the other excellent reasons:
you can shift gears without dropping your sandwich
you can shift with frozen fingers
Ergopower in rollercoaster hills gives me RSI
--
---
Marten Gerritsen
INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl
Ron Ruff
(sticking up)on a customized Paul's Thumbie mount. Shifting from the
hoods or the drops is easy and quick... though not as good as it could
be with a mount designed for this purpose. Before brifters were popular
(1989) I mounted an MTB thumb shifter in the same location and it was
nearly ideal... much shorter throw than the barends. I wish these were
still available.
I think the barends will be with us for a few years at least... they
are used on all those TT and Tri bikes.
bryanska
Good God, how? By delivering a precisely tuned kung fu tap to the bar,
which moves the shifter?
Or did you mean your pinkies?
bryanska
Also, once I was harassed by a cop and I started to cry when he
mockingly couldn't find the bar-end shifters on my drop bars. It was a
horrible experience, much like being fondled, when I was forced to
point to (and touch and work and lick) my Tiagra brifters.
Paul Turner
> If you are on the drops you have to move your hands as much for brifters
> as for bar-ends.
That must depend on where you grip the drops. I find I literally don't move
my hand at all. I just extend a finger and push one of the levers. Using
brifters from the drops seems to require the mimimum hand movement possible.
--
Paul Turner
P Kl
bike you change gear from as long as the gear selects efficiently . It is
The law of diminishing returns you pay a lot of money for a very little
return . So to answer your question the benefits for touring are nil.
The problem is all your mates could have integrated shifters and they will
tell you how fantastic they are so you may end up wanting to change . The
doubt is already in your mind about not having the integrated shifters.I
personally would prefer the barcons.
PK
Gooserider
"Ted Bennett" <tedbe...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:tedbennett-E2A24...@news1.west.earthlink.net...
one of them. My dad bought the two of them matching Raleigh touring bikes
with stem mounted shifters. Mom wobbled badly when she tried to shift, which
she used as an excuse to quit riding.
Tom Nakashima
> Is the 520 the only modern bicycle equipped
> with bar-end shifters?
Bruce Gordon Cycles:
http://www.bgcycles.com/
-tom
SMS
> In short, bar-end shifters emphasize durability, versatility (those
> with indexed and friction modes) and economy; they're more suited to
> the demands of touring or commuting. I'm not sure if the 520 is the
> only 'modern'(?) bike equipped with bar-end shifters, but almost any
> bike with drop bars is a candidate - and with the addition of Pauls
> Thumbies, MTBs too can be so equipped.
Rivendell has bar-end shifter on the Romulus. Personally I like the
brifters on a mountain bike, but on a road bike I'd be happier with down
tube shifters than bar-ends. If I have to move my hand to shift anyway,
then why not go for the true retro-grouch location of shifters.
Hank Wirtz
"Gooserider" <goose...@mousepotato.com> wrote in message
news:7Vzvf.512$gf7...@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
> Some people have a difficult time taking a hand off the bar. My mother
> being one of them. My dad bought the two of them matching Raleigh touring
> bikes with stem mounted shifters. Mom wobbled badly when she tried to
> shift, which she used as an excuse to quit riding.
I think bar-ends are FAR better for novice riders than stem-mounted ones.
Stem-mounted ones have the same problem that I have with downtube ones: the
require you to move your hand inward. That throws my balance way off,
whether I'm reaching for the stem or the downtube.
With either brifters or bar-ends, my hands stay at the outside of the bars,
acting much the same way as a tightrope walker with a balancing pole.
Dane Buson
>
> - some bar-end shifters can be toggled between indexed/friction mode. I
> have such a shifter, but it has never gone out of adjustment during a
> ride, so I've never used the friction mode.
It's rather handy when you've trashed your rear wheel and don't feel
like fiddling with swapping cassettes on the "spare" wheel that has
an 8 speed cassette instead of a 9 speed. *cough* Of course, if the
"spare" wheel comes from your wife's bike, it might be wise to fix that
wheel up a little expeditiously.
--
Dane Buson - z u v e m b i @ u n i x b i g o t s . o r g
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips
over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come."
--Matt Groening
Dane Buson
>
> The problem is all your mates could have integrated shifters and they will
> tell you how fantastic they are so you may end up wanting to change . The
> doubt is already in your mind about not having the integrated shifters.I
> personally would prefer the barcons.
Feh, I did my first ten thousand miles on a bike with brifters. I like
them okay. The replacement bike I bought (Surly Crosscheck) came with
barcons as standard. It took me a day or two to adjust, and I haven't
felt any need to switch back. The durability/simplicity angle is great
for commuting, especially since I tend to destroy things as a matter of
course.
My brifters are rattling around in a drawer, waiting for me to construct
a sunny-day road bike. [1]
[1] I live in Seattle, I already own a rainy-day bike.
--
Dane Buson - z u v e m b i @ u n i x b i g o t s . o r g
"Ubi non accusator, ibi non judex."
(Where there is no police, there is no speed limit.)
-- Roman Law, trans. Petr Beckmann (1971)
John Forrest Tomlinson
such remote, mission critical situations with their bikes that the
added reliability of bar-ends over integrated brake/shifters is a big
factor. Wow, are you guys all doing unsupported tours across Societ
Central Asia or something?
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
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Dane Buson
> I read this thread and am amazed at the number of riders who are in
> such remote, mission critical situations with their bikes that the
> added reliability of bar-ends over integrated brake/shifters is a big
> factor. Wow, are you guys all doing unsupported tours across Societ
> Central Asia or something?
Just commuting to work mostly. If my bike doesn't work, I'm left with
the alternatives of the bus (boring, inconvenient) or *shudder*, driving
the car to work. The latter would also inconvienence the wife and make
me cranky in general.
I'd rather not be stuck with the bus or car while I'm waiting for the
bike shop to fix whatever is wrong with my bike.
It's the same kind of reasoning why I use 36 spoke wheels and ride tires
like Conti TT2Ks and Schwalbe Marathon pluses. I could and do use the
alternative strategy of keeping multiple bikes, but that doesn't help
when multiple bikes are out of commission. This happened to me recently
when I broke the frame on my Surly, and then while that was in the
warranty process I also broke the frame on my grocery bike.
--
Dane Buson - z u v e m b i @ u n i x b i g o t s . o r g
Rick: "How can you close me up? On what grounds?"
Renault: "I'm shocked! Shocked! To find that gambling is going on here."
Croupier (handing money to Renault): "Your winnings, sir."
Renault: "Oh. Thank you very much."
John Forrest Tomlinson
>In rec.bicycles.misc John Forrest Tomlinson <usenet...@jt10000.com> wrote:
>> I read this thread and am amazed at the number of riders who are in
>> such remote, mission critical situations with their bikes that the
>> added reliability of bar-ends over integrated brake/shifters is a big
>> factor. Wow, are you guys all doing unsupported tours across Societ
>> Central Asia or something?
>
>Just commuting to work mostly. If my bike doesn't work, I'm left with
>the alternatives of the bus (boring, inconvenient) or *shudder*, driving
>the car to work. The latter would also inconvienence the wife and make
>me cranky in general.
>
>I'd rather not be stuck with the bus or car while I'm waiting for the
>bike shop to fix whatever is wrong with my bike.
>
>It's the same kind of reasoning why I use 36 spoke wheels and ride tires
>like Conti TT2Ks and Schwalbe Marathon pluses.
Are you suggesting intergrated shifters fail with anywhere near the
frequency of tires? That's one rugged commute you have, that the
shifting could fail to the extent that the bike would be unrideable.
Whoa.
frkr...@gmail.com
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> I read this thread and am amazed at the number of riders who are in
> such remote, mission critical situations with their bikes that the
> added reliability of bar-ends over integrated brake/shifters is a big
> factor. Wow, are you guys all doing unsupported tours across Societ
> Central Asia or something?
Well, I've done unsupported touring across the Dakotas. It's about the
same!
In my mind, repairability is valuable for any ride that gets me more
than five miles from home. Come to think of it, repairability is
valuable in almost anything. I suppose if a device literally never,
ever breaks down, I wouldn't care about this - but that's certainly not
true of STI.
I have one friend whose brifters locked up on him. It took us an hour
of fussing and flushing to get them working. I have another family
member who had annoying problems with hers (refusing to stay in low
gear without "double pumping", a pain on super-steep hills). I have a
third friend whose brand new touring bike locked up its right STI just
before she left on a week-long tour. We got it working somehow, but
that hardly instills confidence.
- Frank Krygowski
Dane Buson
> On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 15:26:44 -0800, Dane Buson <da...@unseen.edu> wrote:
>
>>Just commuting to work mostly. If my bike doesn't work, I'm left with
>>the alternatives of the bus (boring, inconvenient) or *shudder*, driving
>>the car to work. The latter would also inconvienence the wife and make
>>me cranky in general.
>>
>>I'd rather not be stuck with the bus or car while I'm waiting for the
>>bike shop to fix whatever is wrong with my bike.
>>
>>It's the same kind of reasoning why I use 36 spoke wheels and ride tires
>>like Conti TT2Ks and Schwalbe Marathon pluses.
>
> Are you suggesting intergrated shifters fail with anywhere near the
> frequency of tires? That's one rugged commute you have, that the
> shifting could fail to the extent that the bike would be unrideable.
> Whoa.
Not at all. [2] However, from what I understand they do tend to start
failing about 20,000 miles (not an absolute of course). [1] I haven't
heard of anyone talking about wearing out barcons, which makes me think
they have a longer lifetime. Additionally they are in a less vulnerable
position in a crash.
When you are talking about the system of something as a whole, every
piece counts when you are talking about downtime. Are the cogs on that
cassette sturdy, is one likely to snap in use? Are those handlebars
sturdy, will they bend/break when I'm really pumping on the pedals?
Is that frame strong enough for my intended usage? Will the fork bend
in a panic stop? [3]
Individually the chance of failure for any component is small. And I'd
like to keep it that way.
Also, as to commuting with reduced functionality. I've been reduced to
singlespeeding my way home, but it kind of sucks. My route to and fro
work is fairly hilly, I really *like* having multiple gears.
[1] To be more specific: I have heard very few stories of people's STI
shifters dying at less than 15-20 thousand. I've heard quite a few
of them failing after that mark.
[2] I only barely managed to restrain myself from posting a tale of kilometer
long swims through frigid screeching eel infested waters, fire swamps,
ROUS's, daring leaps from parapets, etc. I restrained myself. Barely.
[3] I've broken every one of these components *in the past year*, some
more than once.
--
Dane Buson - z u v e m b i @ u n i x b i g o t s . o r g
C Code.
C Code Run.
Run, Code, RUN!
PLEASE!!!!
Gooserider
"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenet...@jt10000.com> wrote in message
news:ofutr15qe0hitk843...@4ax.com...
>I read this thread and am amazed at the number of riders who are in
> such remote, mission critical situations with their bikes that the
> added reliability of bar-ends over integrated brake/shifters is a big
> factor. Wow, are you guys all doing unsupported tours across Societ
> Central Asia or something?
>
> JT
>
fine. They aren't as elegant as an aero lever, though. I spend more time on
the hoods on my barcon bike because the hoods are more comfortable. Plus, I
think they look better, AND barcons are pretty bulletproof. :-)
Gooserider
>
> I was reading the Trek Web site, and found the 520 comes with bar-end
> shifters.
> What benefits do the Shimano Dura-Ace bar-end shifters offer, compared
> with
> with
> bar-end shifters?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> -Jim
Rivendell equips all their bikes with bar-end shifters, as does Bruce
Gordon, I think. Bar-end shifters are pretty cool, IMHO. Nice to know it's
going to work every time.
Ozark Bicycle
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> I read this thread and am amazed at the number of riders who are in
> such remote, mission critical situations with their bikes that the
> added reliability of bar-ends over integrated brake/shifters is a big
> factor.
Why would _anyone_ opt for the more expensive, less flexible, less
reliable, non-serviceable option (i.e., brifters)? Unless, of course,
they were a sponsored racer.
I am amazed at the number of riders who are brainwashed into thinking
brifters are the only way to go.
John Forrest Tomlinson
>John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>> I read this thread and am amazed at the number of riders who are in
>> such remote, mission critical situations with their bikes that the
>> added reliability of bar-ends over integrated brake/shifters is a big
>> factor. Wow, are you guys all doing unsupported tours across Societ
>> Central Asia or something?
>
>Well, I've done unsupported touring across the Dakotas. It's about the
>same!
>
>In my mind, repairability is valuable for any ride that gets me more
>than five miles from home.
>Come to think of it, repairability is
>valuable in almost anything. I suppose if a device literally never,
>ever breaks down, I wouldn't care about this - but that's certainly not
>true of STI.
Do you carry spare saddles on rides? I've broken them but sort of
like living on the edge.....
>I have one friend whose brifters locked up on him.
So he couldn't pedal at all? Wow. I've broken derailleur cables and
made it home, but I guess I was lucky and realized I could still
pedal. Broke a downtube shifer once -- but could still pedal. Guess
I was lucky to figure that out too.
> I have a
>third friend whose brand new touring
> bike locked up its right STI just
>before she left on a week-long tour.
I call bullshit on that. Brand new and doesn't work. Bizarre.
John Forrest Tomlinson
>In rec.bicycles.misc John Forrest Tomlinson <usenet...@jt10000.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 15:26:44 -0800, Dane Buson <da...@unseen.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>Just commuting to work mostly. If my bike doesn't work, I'm left with
>>>the alternatives of the bus (boring, inconvenient) or *shudder*, driving
>>>the car to work. The latter would also inconvienence the wife and make
>>>me cranky in general.
>>>
>>>I'd rather not be stuck with the bus or car while I'm waiting for the
>>>bike shop to fix whatever is wrong with my bike.
>>>
>>>It's the same kind of reasoning why I use 36 spoke wheels and ride tires
>>>like Conti TT2Ks and Schwalbe Marathon pluses.
>>
>> Are you suggesting intergrated shifters fail with anywhere near the
>> frequency of tires? That's one rugged commute you have, that the
>> shifting could fail to the extent that the bike would be unrideable.
>> Whoa.
>
>Not at all. [2] However, from what I understand they do tend to start
>failing about 20,000 miles (not an absolute of course).
Wow, and so rather than looking out for theme breaking down then, you
forgo using the for, what, over a thouda
[1] I haven't
>heard of anyone talking about wearing out barcons, which makes me think
>they have a longer lifetime. Additionally they are in a less vulnerable
>position in a crash.
>
>Individually the chance of failure for any component is small. And I'd
>like to keep it that way.
>
>Also, as to commuting with reduced functionality. I've been reduced to
>singlespeeding my way home, but it kind of sucks. My route to and fro
>work is fairly hilly, I really *like* having multiple gears.
How often does that kind of stuff actually happen. I've commuted,
been a bike messenger, ridden across the US on a bike, used a bike for
shopping, etc etc and the real love of deriding stuff like STI is just
laughable to me. It's just a bike. It's not an IV drip with a vital
vaccine. YMMV I guess.
>[3] I've broken every one of these
> components *in the past year*, some
> more than once.
Well, that suggests the problem isn't STI but your whole approach to
cycling. Where are you commuting?
Johnny Sunset
Nope, thumbs. See
<http://www.ihpva.org/incoming/2002/Dragonflyer/df2.jpg>. :)
--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
Johnny Sunset
Dane Buson wrote:
> ...Will the fork bend in a panic stop? [3]
You have to break the frame while braking to match Chalo!
John Forrest Tomlinson
<bicycle...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>Why would _anyone_ opt for the more expensive, less flexible, less
>reliable, non-serviceable option (i.e., brifters)? Unless, of course,
>they were a sponsored racer.
Funny, very good parody of the RBR anti-"hip person" Very funny.
Johnny Sunset
Ken Pisichko wrote:
> Jim wrote:
>
> > Is the 520 the only modern bicycle equipped with bar-end shifters?
>
> shifters.
Bar-ends are the best shifters for recumbent bikes, trikes and quads
with "side-stick" under seat steering (USS).
Patrick Lamb
I believe it. My daughter's new bike, a couple of years ago, went
back to the LBS even before her 1-month/100 mile checkup (aka cable
adjustment) because she couldn't shift the left STI. And don't get
Peter Chisholm started on the subject.
Pat
Email address works as is.
Claire Petersky
news:cq8393-...@zuvembi.homelinux.org...
> In rec.bicycles.misc P Kl <peter....@homecall.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> The problem is all your mates could have integrated shifters and they
>> will
>> tell you how fantastic they are so you may end up wanting to change . The
>> doubt is already in your mind about not having the integrated shifters.I
>> personally would prefer the barcons.
>
> Feh, I did my first ten thousand miles on a bike with brifters. I like
> them okay. The replacement bike I bought (Surly Crosscheck) came with
> barcons as standard. It took me a day or two to adjust, and I haven't
> felt any need to switch back. The durability/simplicity angle is great
> for commuting, especially since I tend to destroy things as a matter of
> course.
I have one bike with brifters, another one with barcons. I prefer the
brifters, but the barcons are fine with me. Every so once in a while I space
it and shift the air, expecting something to be there that isn't. Otherwise,
it's easy to switch back and forth between the two.
--
Warm Regards,
Claire Petersky
http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/
Personal page: http://www.geocities.com/cpetersky/
See the books I've set free at:
http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky
bfd
"Ozark Bicycle" <bicycle...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in message
news:1136598742.6...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
are also more expensive than bar-ends or dt shifters.
Further, not all "brifters" are "non-serviceable". Campy ergo levers can be
easily repaired.
Can you explain why "brifters" are less *less flexible" than bar-ends or dt
shifters?
One possible reason people like "brifters" over barends or dt shifters is
the positioning or *fit* of the levers. That is, the fact that the shifters
are located on the brake levers do make some feel shifting is easier and
faster than other types of shifters.
The fact that "pro racers" use them probably helps sales too. After all, the
mfrs continue to sell the "race on Sunday, sell on Monday" mentality, so I
bet many "wanna-be like Lance" types will only get "brifters" for that
reason and result in them out selling bar-ends by 1000-1.
Bottom line, what ever shifter works for you, be it bar-ends/dt/or glup,
briftes, then that's what you need to ride. If others prefer "brifters", so
be it. Your constant complaining isn't going to make one iota of
difference...
Tim McNamara
> I call bullshit on that.
What, are we in 7th grade or something?
Once again you seem to be seeking an argument. What's up with that?
Jeff Starr
<bicycle...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
And I'm always amazed at riders that don't like brifters, thinking
that those of us who do, are misguided racer wannabes.
You like barcons, that's fine, I like brifters, why is that so hard to
accept. They are both good choices.
In the big picture bicycles don't cost all that much. People go to a
show and out to dinner, for what I spent on my 9-speed DA STI
shifters.
I bought a 2002 LeMond Tourmalet, in 2003. A year later, I upgraded
everything but the fork and brake calipers. I had Peter build me a set
of wheels, I keep the original set as backup. What I did was make the
bike my own. I love the bike, I ride it a lot and I wanted what I
considered to be, if not the best, while than close to it. If I could
afford it, I'd buy a high end frame and go from there. But, I can't so
my steel Lemond with carbon fiber and DA 9-speed is special to me.
The bike just screams "ride me"! Isn't that worth a few more dollars?
Jeffrey Starr
All rights to the above text is reserved. No use
outside of rec.bicycle.tech, without express written
permission.
JJ
"Jim" <j2j...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1136514049.3...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Hello there,
>
> I was reading the Trek Web site, and found the 520 comes with bar-end
> shifters.
> What benefits do the Shimano Dura-Ace bar-end shifters offer, compared
> with
> with
> bar-end shifters?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> -Jim
This is from personal experience; With a semi-loaded 520 touring bike
(medium size back pack + two fully loaded rear panniers), the bar-ends were
a pain to shift, particularly on hills. I found that I wasn't able to match
my physical capacity to efficiently moving the bike.
Switched to 105 brifters and found that I was always in the best gear.
Coming up to a grade you can simply click through the gears like paddle
shifter on a Ferrari. Coming down the other side, click, click, click...
always the most efficient gearing. Same thing on the flats, you get to the
gear you need quicker and easier. I found I have more energy and am less
tired.
On my annual Euro tour I'll bring a set of down tube shifters or bar ends in
case of something goes awry with the supposedly delicate brifters. YMMV.
frkr...@gmail.com
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On 6 Jan 2006 15:58:58 -0800, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >Come to think of it, repairability is
> >valuable in almost anything. I suppose if a device literally never,
> >ever breaks down, I wouldn't care about this - but that's certainly not
> >true of STI.
>
> Do you carry spare saddles on rides? I've broken them but sort of
> like living on the edge.....
Sounds like you need to lose weight. Or perhaps gain it in your bike
parts. I've never, ever had a saddle break.
But then I tend to buy stuff that's reliable, not finicky racing stuff.
IOW, saddles with steel rails, not hollow titanium. And, um,
bar-ends, not brifters.
>
> >I have one friend whose brifters locked up on him.
>
> So he couldn't pedal at all? Wow.
Not what I said. He couldn't _shift_ at all. He was recovering from a
fairly long illness during which his bike sat in his heated garage.
When he felt well enough to put it on the trainer, he found the STI
stuff had changed it into a single speed.
> > I have a
> >third friend whose brand new touring
> > bike locked up its right STI just
> >before she left on a week-long tour.
>
> I call bullshit on that. Brand new and doesn't work. Bizarre.
Well, your bullshit detector is out of whack.
I thought it was bizarre too. It was the first Shimano 9 speed bike
I'd seen. It had less than 50 miles on it, and she and her husband
called me to come over and help fix it. Of course, with that black box
of watch parts inside the lever, there's no telling what was wrong.
And no telling what our pulling, pushing, and WD-40-ing did to fix it.
I'd have taken the old bike on that tour, although I admit she didn't
experience that total lock-up again, AFAIK.
- Frank Krygowski
Michael Press
You reported that your STI system has broken twice, and
that you replace your shifter cables at the least sign of
fraying. This is exactly what various riders want to
avoid.
<ht7lm1lvqq546b1sl...@4ax.com>
<ha1om1lf9tb3g4b7k...@4ax.com>
What makes you dismissive of their very real concerns? You
prefer to insult them. I read the 126 postings of yours
that are currently on my server, and you do not have a
good word for anyone.
--
Michael Press
G.T.
> On 6 Jan 2006 17:52:22 -0800, "Ozark Bicycle"
> <bicycle...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>
>
>>John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>
>>>I read this thread and am amazed at the number of riders who are in
>>>such remote, mission critical situations with their bikes that the
>>>added reliability of bar-ends over integrated brake/shifters is a big
>>>factor.
>>
>>
>>Why would _anyone_ opt for the more expensive, less flexible, less
>>reliable, non-serviceable option (i.e., brifters)? Unless, of course,
>>they were a sponsored racer.
>>
>>I am amazed at the number of riders who are brainwashed into thinking
>>brifters are the only way to go.
>
>
> And I'm always amazed at riders that don't like brifters, thinking
> that those of us who do, are misguided racer wannabes.
>
> You like barcons, that's fine, I like brifters, why is that so hard to
> accept. They are both good choices.
>
Because if it weren't for 'bent riders and time trialers buying bar-ends
the rest of us probably wouldn't have the option of getting bar-ends.
They'd be off the market just like good quality mtn bike thumbshifters
are now.
Greg
--
"All my time I spent in heaven
Revelries of dance and wine
Waking to the sound of laughter
Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons
Benjamin Lewis
>> I use my thumbs to move the bar-end levers without moving my hands.
>
> Good God, how? By delivering a precisely tuned kung fu tap to the bar,
> which moves the shifter?
That's pretty much how I've done it with my water bottle. It requires much
less precision than you might suspect, in indexed mode.
--
Benjamin Lewis
Now is the time for all good men to come to.
-- Walt Kelly
Dane Buson
> On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 16:23:32 -0800, Dane Buson <da...@unseen.edu> wrote:
>>In rec.bicycles.misc John Forrest Tomlinson <usenet...@jt10000.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Are you suggesting intergrated shifters fail with anywhere near the
>>> frequency of tires? That's one rugged commute you have, that the
>>> shifting could fail to the extent that the bike would be unrideable.
>>> Whoa.
>>
>>Not at all. [2] However, from what I understand they do tend to start
>>failing about 20,000 miles (not an absolute of course).
>
> Wow, and so rather than looking out for theme breaking down then, you
> forgo using the for, what, over a thouda
I've forgone using them for over 15 thousand miles, not because they're
unreliable, but because I don't particularly like them *better* than
barcons. For commuting, I'm perfectly happy using barcons rather than
brifters.
>>Also, as to commuting with reduced functionality. I've been reduced to
>>singlespeeding my way home, but it kind of sucks. My route to and fro
>>work is fairly hilly, I really *like* having multiple gears.
>
> How often does that kind of stuff actually happen. I've commuted,
> been a bike messenger, ridden across the US on a bike, used a bike for
> shopping, etc etc and the real love of deriding stuff like STI is just
> laughable to me. It's just a bike. It's not an IV drip with a vital
> vaccine. YMMV I guess.
Ah, stop there. I *never* derided STI. I never said it was junk. I
simply said I like the reliability and simplicity of barcons. I find
them perfectly easy to use and service. I rode brifters on my first
commuter and have never felt the need to transfer them when that bike
was toast.
>>[3] I've broken every one of these
>> components *in the past year*, some
>> more than once.
>
> Well, that suggests the problem isn't STI but your whole approach to
> cycling. Where are you commuting?
Seattle to Bellevue. It's about 9.5 miles each way, and really isn't
that bad. If I wasn't about 205 pounds and like to "ride it like I
stole it" I'm sure I wouldn't have any problems (or at least a lot
less). If I was slower, lighter, or less *exuberant* I'm sure I'd
break less parts. The curb-hopping probably doesn't help either.
--
Dane Buson - z u v e m b i @ u n i x b i g o t s . o r g
A clean desk is a sign of an empty mind.
Dane Buson
>
> Dane Buson wrote:
>> ...Will the fork bend in a panic stop? [3]
>
> You have to break the frame while braking to match Chalo!
True. I don't think I'm even in the running.
--
Dane Buson - z u v e m b i @ u n i x b i g o t s . o r g
"The GOP is the evil party, the Democrats are the stupid party, and
bipartisanship is when they join forces to do something both evil and stupid."
- Stephen Johnson
Tom Keats
Dane Buson <da...@unseen.edu> writes (in part):
> The curb-hopping probably doesn't help either.
Curb-hopping always makes me think of this song
for some reason:
http://www.cycle-of-time.net/Details/GoingUp.htm
And it's gotta be the Jimmy Reed version.
cheers,
Tom
--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca
russell...@yahoo.com
> them okay.
Ah Ha. A virtual newbie virgin to bicycling. I rode my first few
thousand road miles on a bike with stem shifters. Then a few thousand
miles with downtube shifters. This all happened before Ergo/STI was
invented. Then I rode many thousands of miles with bar end shifters
after Ergo/STI were invented. Still have the bar end shifters on the
touring bike because they work well and have some advantages, as
mentioned by many before. Then I finally acquired a bike with Ergo.
All subsequent new bikes have Ergo.
Rick
Johnny Sunset wrote:
> Ted Bennett wrote:
> >
> > I, for one, would hate to see bar-end shifters to go the way of the
> > dodo. While not quite as slick as brifters (you do have to move your
> > hand to shift)....
>
> I use my thumbs to move the bar-end levers without moving my hands.
>
When I had a broken hand, I could not shift brifters, but could shift
bar-cons using the heal of my hand.
- rick
Jim
Thanks for the replies clarifying things for me.
The economics is wicked. Bar-end shifters are supposed to be cheaper
than integrated shifters, but the bar-end-shifters-equipped (boutique)
bicycles are more expensive. I think even the 520 is over-priced.
It is also interesting the Portland commuter from Trek is not spec'd
with
bar-end shifters. I think they are not as marketable as "new and
better"
integrated shifters.
-Jim
Ozark Bicycle
You don't get out enough. Last fall, at the local Tour de Cure, a woman
came into a rest stop with front shifting problems. Tiagra triple,
about 2 months old according to her. The left hand brifter would pull
cable if disconnected from the FD, but it would not do so with any
consistency when working against the spring of the FD. The FD was not
binding, if that's what you're wondering, and the cable, cable housing
etc., was all fine.
Ozark Bicycle
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On 6 Jan 2006 17:52:22 -0800, "Ozark Bicycle"
> <bicycle...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >Why would _anyone_ opt for the more expensive, less flexible, less
> >reliable, non-serviceable option (i.e., brifters)? Unless, of course,
> >they were a sponsored racer.
>
> Funny, very good parody of the RBR anti-"hip person" Very funny.
>
And you are a parody of what? A mindless, marketing-manipulated
zipperhead?
Luke
Tomlinson <usenet...@jt10000.com> wrote:
> I read this thread and am amazed at the number of riders who are in
> such remote, mission critical situations with their bikes that the
> added reliability of bar-ends over integrated brake/shifters is a big
> factor. Wow, are you guys all doing unsupported tours across Societ
> Central Asia or something?
>
> JT
>
What I don't understand is why a commute or tour is so 'mission
critical' as to justify the extra expense and complication of STI
shifters. If barcons don't detract from the experience what's to gain
by STIs? Sure, it'll take an instant longer to shift, but the fact is
for most workaday riders shaving a second or two from a ride is not an
overriding concern.
Ahem. That said, two of my bikes have STIs and there are no plans for
converting them to barcons. ;-)
Luke
P K
"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenet...@jt10000.com> wrote in message
news:ofutr15qe0hitk843...@4ax.com...
>I read this thread and am amazed at the number of riders who are in
> such remote, mission critical situations with their bikes that the
> added reliability of bar-ends over integrated brake/shifters is a big
> factor. Wow, are you guys all doing unsupported tours across Societ
> Central Asia or something?
>
> JT
>
> Remove "remove" to reply
> Visit http://www.jt10000.com
> ****************************
I,ll explain
New Years eve daughter arrives with the 2 grandchildren her Temp is 104.6
deg F they stay for 5 days
Monday 03/01/06 wife starts with a temp of 103.7 deg F. Both have been very
poorly
This morning my temp is 102.2 deg F and I feel ill.
My friend and I are in training for the above ride and
he rang this morning to do a 50 60 mile hilly ride up MOW COP it<s a
struggle to write this.
What I need is a little TLC to take my mind of feeling so bad
P K
<russell...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1136591668.7...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Cycling over 50 yrs.
I have in my collection over 60 bicycles 1900 to 2005
Mem CTC
Club Stone Wheelers
Mem FCOT
Mem VCC
Completed LEJOG
Cape Wrath certificate
last years trip was to Barcelona ( Pyrenees)
The fist trip this year is Mumbia to Goa in India
Long contributor to this and other groups
I Don't need to go on
Now look how silly you look be careful with presumptions
PK
John Forrest Tomlinson
<bicycle...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>You don't get out enough. Last fall, at the local Tour de Cure, a woman
>came into a rest stop with front shifting problems. Tiagra triple,
>about 2 months old according to her. The left hand brifter would pull
>cable if disconnected from the FD, but it would not do so with any
>consistency when working against the spring of the FD. The FD was not
>binding, if that's what you're wondering, and the cable, cable housing
>etc., was all fine.
So what? I can describe almost any bike part that has failed.
The thing is, the slavish claims of the importance of repairability in
the field to most people are just a flip-side of the coin of the sort
of "pro lightest bestest newest thing" guys like you decry. Yeah,
it's true that for a typical bike racer an ounce of the bike doesn't
make a huge difference. And a for a weekend warrior, STI isn't
essential to beating up on buddies on a group ride. But in the same
way, the impression you give of how vital it is to minimize chances of
failure of the bike is really another form of "fashion."
You're fortunate to have found a place on the internet where such
"fashion" is applauded. I just find it tedious hearing it en masse.
John Forrest Tomlinson
<bicycle...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>
>John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>> On 6 Jan 2006 17:52:22 -0800, "Ozark Bicycle"
>> <bicycle...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>> >Why would _anyone_ opt for the more expensive, less flexible, less
>> >reliable, non-serviceable option (i.e., brifters)? Unless, of course,
>> >they were a sponsored racer.
>And you are a parody of what? A mindless, marketing-manipulated
>zipperhead?
If what you wrote was serious, then you've said above that ergo/STI
have no functional advantage and should only be used if someone else
pays for them. Are you that stupid?
It's fine to say "I'm thrifty" and don't see the advantage of ergo/STI
for my riding. Fine.
But this nonsense of "they have no advantage worth any money; it;s
only perception that they are better caused by marketing" is just
stupid. It's a form of luddite elitist that's over the top.
John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote:
>And I'm always amazed at riders that don't like brifters, thinking
>that those of us who do, are misguided racer wannabes.
>
>You like barcons, that's fine, I like brifters, why is that so hard to
>accept. They are both good choices.
>
>In the big picture bicycles don't cost all that much. People go to a
>show and out to dinner, for what I spent on my 9-speed DA STI
>shifters.
>
All well-said.
On the bar-cons thing, I'm only complaining about the people who are
really caught up in an "anti-fashion fashion", which crazy claims
about how vital/reliable/inexpensive their own bikes must be in
justify a certain approach and deride others. They're just bikes.
They're not that mystical or sensitive objects.
John Forrest Tomlinson
>
>John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>> On 6 Jan 2006 15:58:58 -0800, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> >Come to think of it, repairability is
>> >valuable in almost anything. I suppose if a device literally never,
>> >ever breaks down, I wouldn't care about this - but that's certainly not
>> >true of STI.
>>
>> Do you carry spare saddles on rides? I've broken them but sort of
>> like living on the edge.....
>
>Sounds like you need to lose weight.
I broke one when I weighed 140 pounds (alloy rails -- mistake we
agree) and one with solid steel rails when I weighed 150-155. I think
I broke another with non-alloy rails at that weight too but am not
sure if they were solid or what.
>But then I tend to buy stuff that's reliable, not finicky racing stuff.
> IOW, saddles with steel rails, not hollow titanium. And, um,
>bar-ends, not brifters.
>
>>
>> >I have one friend whose brifters locked up on him.
>>
>> So he couldn't pedal at all? Wow.
>
>Not what I said. He couldn't _shift_ at all.
> He was recovering from a
>fairly long illness during which his bike sat in his heated garage.
>When he felt well enough to put it on the trainer, he found the STI
>stuff had changed it into a single speed.
Sounds like a maintenance issue to me. That bike, in general, should
be looked at.
>I thought it was bizarre too. It was the first Shimano 9 speed bike
>I'd seen. It had less than 50 miles on it, and she and her husband
>called me to come over and help fix it. Of course, with that black box
>of watch parts inside the lever, there's no telling what was wrong.
Yeah, the little men inside could be sick or something. I wish I
hadn't fallen for the ads and bought that stuff.
John Forrest Tomlinson
>You reported that your STI system has broken twice, and
>that you replace your shifter cables at the least sign of
>fraying. This is exactly what various riders want to
>avoid.
>
><ht7lm1lvqq546b1sl...@4ax.com>
><ha1om1lf9tb3g4b7k...@4ax.com>
I've also come broken cables on downtube shifters (I still use them
BTW) many times but those are visible, so the fraying is more easily
noted before they snap.
Now I know -- STI breaks cables just like downtube shifters break
cables, so it's not an issue -- as soon as the shifting deteriorates
on STI, replace the cable even though there is no visible clue about
it. Or maybe they break them a little more often.
It's a knowledge issue to not have this happen on the road -- and
maybe an issue of the cost of a cable perhaps once a year more often
then a down tube shifter. No big deal.
If I was really concerned about costs, it'd be a bid deal, but I hope
I wouldn't romanticize the decision to go with down tube levers by
making some sort of claims about how I need my bikes to be so super
reliable and don't trust that black box STI gear. It's just a bike.
> I read the 126 postings of yours
>that are currently on my server, and you do not have a
>good word for anyone.
Your sample size is too small -- I have good words for a very small
number of people.
John Forrest Tomlinson
>I've forgone using them for over 15 thousand miles, not because they're
>unreliable, but because I don't particularly like them *better* than
>barcons. For commuting, I'm perfectly happy using barcons rather than
>brifters.
>Ah, stop there. I *never* derided STI. I never said it was junk. I
>simply said I like the reliability and simplicity of barcons. I find
>them perfectly easy to use and service. I rode brifters on my first
>commuter and have never felt the need to transfer them when that bike
>was toast.
That's the sort of honest description of preference it seems
appropriate to share.
John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote:
>In article <ofutr15qe0hitk843...@4ax.com>, John Forrest
>Tomlinson <usenet...@jt10000.com> wrote:
>
>> I read this thread and am amazed at the number of riders who are in
>> such remote, mission critical situations with their bikes that the
>> added reliability of bar-ends over integrated brake/shifters is a big
>> factor. Wow, are you guys all doing unsupported tours across Societ
>> Central Asia or something?
>>
>> JT
>>
>
>What I don't understand is why a commute or tour is so 'mission
>critical' as to justify the extra expense and complication of STI
>shifters.
Many people have only one bike, and if STI is nice for them for fun
riding or racing, they shouldn' feel it's too risky for commuting. I
only had one bike a lot of my life.
Ride what you have.
Steve McDonald
I used a pair of bar-end Shimano friction shifters for 20 years,
moving them through several bikes, I liked them so much. They never
showed any signs of losing their grip and always stayed where I put
them. I'd still use them, if they hadn't been lost when an arsonist
torched my storage building. Back in 1973, everyone around here called
them "fingertip shifters".
Steve McDonald
Helmut Springer
> Can you explain why "brifters" are less *less flexible" than
> bar-ends or dt shifters?
Bend or damage your rear derailleur resp. hanger. Everything able
to go friction mode will continue to work. How relevant that is for
you is your call, obviously.
If you're using Shimano the left/front STI is indexed which often
offers a challenge to users of non-standard chainrings.
--
MfG/Best regards
helmut springer
Ozark Bicycle
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On 6 Jan 2006 18:36:07 -0800, "Ozark Bicycle"
> <bicycle...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> >> On 6 Jan 2006 17:52:22 -0800, "Ozark Bicycle"
> >> <bicycle...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >> >Why would _anyone_ opt for the more expensive, less flexible, less
> >> >reliable, non-serviceable option (i.e., brifters)? Unless, of course,
> >> >they were a sponsored racer.
> >And you are a parody of what? A mindless, marketing-manipulated
> >zipperhead?
>
> If what you wrote was serious, then you've said above that ergo/STI
> have no functional advantage
Unless one is a racer, that is *exactly* what I am saying.
>and should only be used if someone else
> pays for them.
Being sponsored makes the bad equation of more expensive/less reliable
easier to live with.
> Are you that stupid?
Got a hair across your ass these days?
>
> It's fine to say "I'm thrifty" and don't see the advantage of ergo/STI
> for my riding. Fine.
>
No, that's not what I'm saying. What I *am* saying is that I *prefer
barends* for their relability/durability and the flexibility they
afford in various ways such as choice of brake levers, choice of
chainring combinations, etc. Get it?
> But this nonsense of "they have no advantage worth any money; it;s
> only perception that they are better caused by marketing" is just
> stupid. It's a form of luddite elitist that's over the top.
>
Tell ya what, you like 'em so much, go use 'em. I wouldn't have a set
on any of my bikes.
Dane Buson
>
> <russell...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1136591668.7...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>> Feh, I did my first ten thousand miles on a bike with brifters. I like
>>> them okay.
>>
>> Ah Ha. A virtual newbie virgin to bicycling. I rode my first few
>> thousand road miles on a bike with stem shifters. Then a few thousand
>> miles with downtube shifters. This all happened before Ergo/STI was
>> invented. Then I rode many thousands of miles with bar end shifters
>> after Ergo/STI were invented. Still have the bar end shifters on the
>> touring bike because they work well and have some advantages, as
>> mentioned by many before. Then I finally acquired a bike with Ergo.
>> All subsequent new bikes have Ergo.
>>
> I wonder why you presume I am a newbie a little cv
Actually if you'll look at the quoted text at the top, he was responding
to me. Granted he did trim the attribution line, which might make it
mite confusing if you don't have a good threading-aware newsreader.
/peeks at Peter's headers
Ah, Outlook Express, that probably explains it.
;)
> Now look how silly you look be careful with presumptions
*cough*
--
Dane Buson - z u v e m b i @ u n i x b i g o t s . o r g
Thus spake the master programmer:
"You can demonstrate a program for a corporate executive, but you
can't make him computer literate."
-- Geoffrey James, "The Tao of Programming"
David
<j2j...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hello there,
>
> I was reading the Trek Web site, and found the 520 comes with bar-end
> shifters.
> What benefits do the Shimano Dura-Ace bar-end shifters offer, compared
> with
> modern integrated shifters? Is the 520 the only modern bicycle equipped
> with
> bar-end shifters?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> -Jim
>
Jim,
It all comes down to personal preferences whether you like the
convenience of STI hood shifting or drop bar shifting (if you always
ride on drops which I do). Otherwise, go with the ones that you like
the feel the most and not by some doom and gloomers (that most often
happen here in the R.B.T forum) suggestion! Yes, bar-ends are
reliable, but how tough of an environment are you going to subject your
bike to abuse? The majority of US cycle tourers do not venture
overseas (Canada and Mexico do not count) in great numbers as compared
to other nationals (the Europeans and Canadians) and that is suggested
by the amount of passports owned by US citizens alone. The arguement
in the past about STI vs bar-ends had always centered around the issue
of serviceability and replacement in the event of a breakdown are not a
big issue in the United States. If a local bike store does not stock
replacement STI shifters, then a phone call to any mail order stores
will get you fixed in a jiffy. But, if you plan to do a lot of
overseas travel (Asia, Easter part of Europe or any 3rd world
countries), then yes consider bar-ends. If not, STIs would do just
fine and the benefits of hood shifting is a convenience I always sell
to my clients.
Is the 520 the only modern stock bike equipped with bar-ends widely
available in Trek stores? In my country, the answer would be a yes.
In fact, it's a huge selling point to people who want to have this
feature and I suspect that it is a Trek marketing decision.
The touring bike market is a very small portion of any bike sales. In
fact, Trek didn't even bother to showcase their Trek 520 on Interbike
1999 or 2000 (I can't remember which). I stopped going there since,
which goes to show how lackluster sales are for this steel beast..
There's a lot more emphasis for the Burke family (the owner of Trek
bikes) to promote Trek carbon bikes -- there's where the dough is and
not the Trek 520.
David.
Claire Petersky
news:t86493-...@zuvembi.homelinux.org...
> If I was slower, lighter, or less *exuberant*
Yeah, cut down on the exuberance, there, Dane.
--
Warm Regards,
Claire Petersky
http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/
Personal page: http://www.geocities.com/cpetersky/
See the books I've set free at:
http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky
Dane Buson
> In article <t86493-...@zuvembi.homelinux.org>,
> Dane Buson <da...@unseen.edu> writes (in part):
>
>> The curb-hopping probably doesn't help either.
>
> Curb-hopping always makes me think of this song
> for some reason:
> http://www.cycle-of-time.net/Details/GoingUp.htm
Aww, now you've got me directing a MTV music video version [1]
in my head. Too bad I have no appreciable talents in that
direction.
> And it's gotta be the Jimmy Reed version.
/me puts on his l33t int4rn3t hat and goes to search for it.
[1] Not that there appears to be music or videos on either
version of MTV anymore.
--
Dane Buson - z u v e m b i @ u n i x b i g o t s . o r g
"Sometimes, you can't do anything about something that sucks,
until later."
-Slovotsky's Law #19 REVISED
Dane Buson
>> Feh, I did my first ten thousand miles on a bike with brifters. I like
>> them okay.
>
> Ah Ha. A virtual newbie virgin to bicycling.
Guilty as charged. I probably did less than a hundred miles on stem
shifter bikes previous to starting up cycling after moving to Seattle.
I've been cycling moderately seriously about 3 1/2 years now.
--
Dane Buson - z u v e m b i @ u n i x b i g o t s . o r g
"...I've seen Sun monitors on fire off the side of the multimedia
lab. I've seen NTU lights glitter in the dark near the Mail Gate.
All these things will be lost in time, like the root partition last
week. Time to die..." -- Peter Gutmann, posting in a.s.r.
Tim McNamara
> Can you explain why "brifters" are less *less flexible" than
> bar-ends or dt shifters?
"Brifters"
1. Indexed only, and only for one gearing configuration (e.g.,
7/8/9/10 speed depending on age). If you never have to change
wheels for any reason, probably not an issue.
2. Little tolerance for bent derailleur hanger after a crash.
3. Location makes damage to shifting mechanism more vulnerable in a
crash. I saw an Ergo lever smashed to smithereens in such a
situation, leaving the rider unable to shift or brake on that
side.
4. In the case of Shimano, not serviceable.
5. As a function of indexing, not tolerant of having to replace the
derailleur with a different make (or sometimes different model) in
the event of damage.
6. As a function of indexing, vulnerable to shifting problems related
to cables getting gunked up.
Bar-end shifters:
1. None of the above limitations.
2. Less convenient in racing situations.
3. Broader choice of brake lever shapes to fit larger or smaller
hands.
That said, I like Ergo just fine and have it on one of my favorite
bikes. Back when I raced, I thought Ergo was a clear benefit adn an
advantage compared to DT shift levers. The advantage was less clearcut
vis a vis bar end shifters, but again in a racing situation I thought
Ergo had the advantage. I've had a couple of bikes with STI and have
never liked it- IMHO the brake lever should serve only one function.
Obviously this is not something that bothers millions and millions of
bike riders, so it may just be a personal preference.
Tim McNamara
> They're just bikes. They're not that mystical or sensitive objects.
Hey! You hurt my bike's feelings! :-D
You're quite right of course- bikes are just bikes and all the dudgeon
over them tends to be pretty silly.
Tim McNamara
> I broke one when I weighed 140 pounds (alloy rails -- mistake we
> agree) and one with solid steel rails when I weighed 150-155. I
> think I broke another with non-alloy rails at that weight too but am
> not sure if they were solid or what.
I'm wondering whether the saddle clamp on the seat post might have
contributed. Some have a very short clamping surface, and I have
wondered if those contribute to bending or breaking the saddle rails.
G.T.
> "John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenet...@jt10000.com> wrote in message
> news:ofutr15qe0hitk843...@4ax.com...
>
>>I read this thread and am amazed at the number of riders who are in
>>such remote, mission critical situations with their bikes that the
>>added reliability of bar-ends over integrated brake/shifters is a big
>>factor. Wow, are you guys all doing unsupported tours across Societ
>>Central Asia or something?
>>
>>JT
>
> I,ll explain
>
> New Years eve daughter arrives with the 2 grandchildren her Temp is 104.6
> deg F they stay for 5 days
>
> Monday 03/01/06 wife starts with a temp of 103.7 deg F. Both have been very
> poorly
>
March 1st? Are you from the future?
Greg
--
"All my time I spent in heaven
Revelries of dance and wine
Waking to the sound of laughter
Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons
G.T.
> On Sat, 07 Jan 2006 04:40:10 GMT, Jeff Starr <jst...@animalpc.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>And I'm always amazed at riders that don't like brifters, thinking
>>that those of us who do, are misguided racer wannabes.
>>
>>You like barcons, that's fine, I like brifters, why is that so hard to
>>accept. They are both good choices.
>>
>>In the big picture bicycles don't cost all that much. People go to a
>>show and out to dinner, for what I spent on my 9-speed DA STI
>>shifters.
>>
>
>
> All well-said.
>
> On the bar-cons thing, I'm only complaining about the people who are
> really caught up in an "anti-fashion fashion", which crazy claims
> about how vital/reliable/inexpensive
They are more reliable and less expensive over their useful lifespan.
Why do you keep scoffing at these benefits and calling everyone who uses
them an anti-fashionista? Poor self-esteem? Can't bear to do your own
thing? Gotta be part of the DA STI crowd?
Robin Hubert
>>such remote, mission critical situations with their bikes that the
>>added reliability of bar-ends over integrated brake/shifters is a big
>>factor. Wow, are you guys all doing unsupported tours across Societ
>>Central Asia or something?
>
>
> same!
>
> In my mind, repairability is valuable for any ride that gets me more
> valuable in almost anything. I suppose if a device literally never,
> ever breaks down, I wouldn't care about this - but that's certainly not
> true of STI.
>
> of fussing and flushing to get them working. I have another family
> member who had annoying problems with hers (refusing to stay in low
> gear without "double pumping", a pain on super-steep hills). I have a
> third friend whose brand new touring bike locked up its right STI just
> that hardly instills confidence.
>
> - Frank Krygowski
>
I'm going to bet that road STI levers have a failure rate at least 20
times that of barcons.
Robin Hubert
Robin Hubert
> On 6 Jan 2006 15:58:58 -0800, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>>John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>
>>>I read this thread and am amazed at the number of riders who are in
>>>such remote, mission critical situations with their bikes that the
>>>added reliability of bar-ends over integrated brake/shifters is a big
>>>factor. Wow, are you guys all doing unsupported tours across Societ
>>>Central Asia or something?
>>
>>Well, I've done unsupported touring across the Dakotas. It's about the
>>same!
>>
>>In my mind, repairability is valuable for any ride that gets me more
>>than five miles from home.
>
>
>>Come to think of it, repairability is
>>valuable in almost anything. I suppose if a device literally never,
>>ever breaks down, I wouldn't care about this - but that's certainly not
>>true of STI.
>
>
> like living on the edge.....
>
>
>
>
> made it home, but I guess I was lucky and realized I could still
> pedal. Broke a downtube shifer once -- but could still pedal. Guess
> I was lucky to figure that out too.
>
>> I have a
>>third friend whose brand new touring
>>bike locked up its right STI just
>>before she left on a week-long tour.
>
>
>
> JT
>
> ****************************
> Remove "remove" to reply
> Visit http://www.jt10000.com
> ****************************
Peter Chisholm will testify in that regard. I think he'll disagree.
Why are you so contentious?
Robin Hubert
Robin Hubert
> "bfd" <bfd...@comcast.net> writes:
>
>
>>Can you explain why "brifters" are less *less flexible" than
>>bar-ends or dt shifters?
>
>
> "Brifters"
>
> 1. Indexed only, and only for one gearing configuration (e.g.,
> 7/8/9/10 speed depending on age). If you never have to change
> wheels for any reason, probably not an issue.
>
> 2. Little tolerance for bent derailleur hanger after a crash.
>
> 3. Location makes damage to shifting mechanism more vulnerable in a
> crash. I saw an Ergo lever smashed to smithereens in such a
> situation, leaving the rider unable to shift or brake on that
> side.
>
> 4. In the case of Shimano, not serviceable.
>
> 5. As a function of indexing, not tolerant of having to replace the
> derailleur with a different make (or sometimes different model) in
> the event of damage.
>
> 6. As a function of indexing, vulnerable to shifting problems related
> to cables getting gunked up.
>
> Bar-end shifters:
>
> 1. None of the above limitations.
>
> 2. Less convenient in racing situations.
>
> 3. Broader choice of brake lever shapes to fit larger or smaller
> hands.
>
Where's JT's counter-list?
Robin Hubert
Robin Hubert
> P K wrote:
>
>> "John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenet...@jt10000.com> wrote in message
>> news:ofutr15qe0hitk843...@4ax.com...
>>
>>> I read this thread and am amazed at the number of riders who are in
>>> such remote, mission critical situations with their bikes that the
>>> added reliability of bar-ends over integrated brake/shifters is a big
>>> factor. Wow, are you guys all doing unsupported tours across Societ
>>> Central Asia or something?
>>>
>>> JT
>>
>>
>> Of coarse , cycling from Mubia to Goa in Feb. At the moment I am
>> suffering I,ll explain
>>
>> New Years eve daughter arrives with the 2 grandchildren her Temp is
>> 104.6 deg F they stay for 5 days
>>
>> Monday 03/01/06 wife starts with a temp of 103.7 deg F. Both have been
>> very poorly
>>
>
> March 1st? Are you from the future?
>
> Greg
>
No, he's from the UK.
Robin Hubert
Robin Hubert
> "Jim" <j2j...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1136514049.3...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
>>Hello there,
>>
>>I was reading the Trek Web site, and found the 520 comes with bar-end
>>shifters.
>>What benefits do the Shimano Dura-Ace bar-end shifters offer, compared
>>with
>>modern integrated shifters? Is the 520 the only modern bicycle equipped
>>with
>>bar-end shifters?
>>
>>Thanks in advance.
>>
>>-Jim
>
>
> (medium size back pack + two fully loaded rear panniers), the bar-ends were
> a pain to shift, particularly on hills. I found that I wasn't able to match
> my physical capacity to efficiently moving the bike.
Could you please explain that last statement? It makes no sense to me.
> Switched to 105 brifters and found that I was always in the best gear.
> Coming up to a grade you can simply click through the gears like paddle
> shifter on a Ferrari. Coming down the other side, click, click, click...
> always the most efficient gearing. Same thing on the flats, you get to the
> gear you need quicker and easier. I found I have more energy and am less
> tired.
>
> On my annual Euro tour I'll bring a set of down tube shifters or bar ends in
> case of something goes awry with the supposedly delicate brifters. YMMV.
>
>
My experince with touring shows me there's no difference. Usually, you
pick a gear and go for a while. There's no frantic F-1 racer paddle
shifting going on, and this is not mountain biking we're talking about.
There's no dicing about as if in a criterium or closely packed road
race where you might have to answer a move very quickly.
For touring, loaded or not, the location of the shifters simply doesn't
matter enough to give a hoot. Now, if you happen to like one shifter
over another, fine, but it really, really doesn't matter for this kind
of riding (or any recreational riding FTM)...
Robin Hubert
G.T.
Is the UK living in the future?
Greg
PS: Yes, I know, it's just that people need to be clear when dealing
with and international audience.
The Wogster
> "bfd" <bfd...@comcast.net> writes:
>
>
>>Can you explain why "brifters" are less *less flexible" than
>>bar-ends or dt shifters?
>
>
> "Brifters"
>
> 1. Indexed only, and only for one gearing configuration (e.g.,
> 7/8/9/10 speed depending on age). If you never have to change
> wheels for any reason, probably not an issue.
>
> 2. Little tolerance for bent derailleur hanger after a crash.
>
> 3. Location makes damage to shifting mechanism more vulnerable in a
> crash. I saw an Ergo lever smashed to smithereens in such a
> situation, leaving the rider unable to shift or brake on that
> side.
>
> 4. In the case of Shimano, not serviceable.
>
> 5. As a function of indexing, not tolerant of having to replace the
> derailleur with a different make (or sometimes different model) in
> the event of damage.
>
> 6. As a function of indexing, vulnerable to shifting problems related
> to cables getting gunked up.
>
> Bar-end shifters:
>
> 1. None of the above limitations.
>
> 2. Less convenient in racing situations.
>
> 3. Broader choice of brake lever shapes to fit larger or smaller
> hands.
So issues, 1, 2 ,5 and 6 are indexing related, rather then brifter
related, IOW these are problems any indexed shifting mechanism would
have even the old 3speed T-shift can have these issues, the trigger
shift MTB mechanisms also have these issues. The fact that Campy can
make one that can be serviced, and Shimano can't simply means that
Shimano used a lousy designer and/or cheap manufacturing process. So
the only real brifter issue is that it can be a lousy location in a
crash. However because the shifter and brake are together, how many
crashes, has it prevented, simply because the rider could brake or shift
without needing to move their hands, very much.
W
Tom Keats
"G.T." <getn...@dslextreme.com> writes:
>>>> Monday 03/01/06 wife starts with a temp of 103.7 deg F. Both have
>>>> been very poorly
>>>>
>>>
>>> March 1st? Are you from the future?
>>>
>>> Greg
>>>
>>
>> No, he's from the UK.
>>
>
> Is the UK living in the future?
>
> Greg
>
> PS: Yes, I know, it's just that people need to be clear when dealing
> with and international audience.
>
I like the day/month/year format because it's in
ascending order (of size of each interval) -- it
follows a pattern. Month/day/year just seems
so randomly arranged.
cheers,
Tom
--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca
P K
"G.T." <getn...@dslextreme.com> wrote in message
news:11s0015...@corp.supernews.com...
I think you are confused about Fahrenheit Now people use the Celsius Scale
for temperature. I assumed most people could convert Deg F to Deg C my
thermometer only reads Deg F
So if you know that 212 Deg F = 100deg C i.e. the boiling point of water
then Deg F -32x5/9 and the other way Deg Cx 9/5+32 .At minus 40 deg both
read the same.
We both have the Flu and in deg C we have hit 40 deg c we are very poorly,
feels like I am in some other time zone
PK
Mark Janeba
I think the point is that bar-cons can be had in models that do *both*
index and non-index. AFAICT, there are no brifters that can do
non-index, at least not in the rear. Because of this, the issues are
*not* separable as you suggest - it's "buy brifters, get indexing only".
Mark
Sorni
> I like the day/month/year format because it's in
> ascending order (of size of each interval) -- it
> follows a pattern. Month/day/year just seems
> so randomly arranged.
Commie.
.
.
.
<eg>
The Wogster
> P K wrote:
>
>> "John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenet...@jt10000.com> wrote in message
>> news:ofutr15qe0hitk843...@4ax.com...
>>
>>> I read this thread and am amazed at the number of riders who are in
>>> such remote, mission critical situations with their bikes that the
>>> added reliability of bar-ends over integrated brake/shifters is a big
>>> factor. Wow, are you guys all doing unsupported tours across Societ
>>> Central Asia or something?
>>>
>>> JT
>>
>>
>> Of coarse , cycling from Mubia to Goa in Feb. At the moment I am
>> suffering I,ll explain
>>
>> New Years eve daughter arrives with the 2 grandchildren her Temp is
>> 104.6 deg F they stay for 5 days
>>
>> Monday 03/01/06 wife starts with a temp of 103.7 deg F. Both have been
>> very poorly
>>
>
> March 1st? Are you from the future?
>
Only if your in the United States, other countries use other date forms,
I think the UK (and here in Canada, where the US form is sometimes
found) it's dd/mm/yy, Europe often sees yy.mm.dd although that usually
uses a period as a separator. Computer wise, if sorting an alpha date
(as opposed to an integer date or floating point date), yy.mm.dd and
dd/mm/yy will always sort properly where as mm/dd/yy often will not, if
crossing a month or year boundry. One place I worked, officially used
only the form d-MMM-yyyy, which would translate the above as 3-Jan-2006
so as to be unconfusing.
W
Michael Press
tkeat...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
> In article <11s05r2...@corp.supernews.com>,
> "G.T." <getn...@dslextreme.com> writes:
>
> >>>> Monday 03/01/06 wife starts with a temp of 103.7 deg F. Both have
> >>>> been very poorly
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> March 1st? Are you from the future?
> >>>
> >>> Greg
> >>>
> >>
> >> No, he's from the UK.
> >>
> >
> > Is the UK living in the future?
> >
> > Greg
> >
> > PS: Yes, I know, it's just that people need to be clear when dealing
> > with and international audience.
> >
>
> I like the day/month/year format because it's in
> ascending order (of size of each interval) -- it
> follows a pattern. Month/day/year just seems
> so randomly arranged.
01/06/06 is a poor format.
I prefer 2006-01-06 because alpha-numeric sort gives
chronological sort, and because it is easier to infer the
day and month fields. :)
Actually, I write always write it out: 6 January 2006.
--
Michael Press
John Forrest Tomlinson
Yeah
But it's also worth pointing out that with some of the problems Tim
described, it's not like the bike becomes unrideable -- it just works
a little worse. What I don't understand is how come the "I need more
reliablity" crowd can't deal with some flawed shifting for an or so to
complete their commute or whatever. It's just riding.
John Forrest Tomlinson
I think that was part of the problem in one case and it's something to
watch out for.
G.T.
> In article <oi6ppd...@vcn.bc.ca>,
> tkeat...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
>
>
>>In article <11s05r2...@corp.supernews.com>,
>> "G.T." <getn...@dslextreme.com> writes:
>>
>>
>>>>>>Monday 03/01/06 wife starts with a temp of 103.7 deg F. Both have
>>>>>>been very poorly
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>March 1st? Are you from the future?
>>>>>
>>>>>Greg
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>No, he's from the UK.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Is the UK living in the future?
>>>
>>>Greg
>>>
>>>PS: Yes, I know, it's just that people need to be clear when dealing
>>>with and international audience.
>>>
>>
>>I like the day/month/year format because it's in
>>ascending order (of size of each interval) -- it
>>follows a pattern. Month/day/year just seems
>>so randomly arranged.
>
>
> 01/06/06 is a poor format.
Agreed, but most here in the USA say it's January 6th, 2006, so it
follows natural speech.
>
> I prefer 2006-01-06 because alpha-numeric sort gives
> chronological sort,
Definitely. Any files, such as photos, that I put a date in the name I
do this way.
> and because it is easier to infer the
> day and month fields. :)
Unless the day is 13 or over it's still got ambiguity. The above could
be January 6 or June 1.
>
> Actually, I write always write it out: 6 January 2006.
>
Yes, the pretty much eliminates any ambiguity.
Greg
Matt O'Toole
> I was reading the Trek Web site, and found the 520 comes with bar-end
> shifters.
> What benefits do the Shimano Dura-Ace bar-end shifters offer, compared
> with
> modern integrated shifters? Is the 520 the only modern bicycle equipped
> with
> bar-end shifters?
No, there are several, mostly bikes intended for touring, commuting, or
cross. Surly, for instance. These days people are using some pretty
fancy stuff for cross though.
Barends (and classic downtube shifters, and MTB thumbshifters) are
cheaper, simpler, and arguably more reliable than brifters. In practice,
brifters are very reliable, but if they break in the middle of nowhere
you're in trouble. Barends have a failover friction mode if something
goes wrong. This is why so many tourists, MTB'ers, commuters, etc.,
prefer the older units. A lot of MTB'ers still use thumbshifters.
Matt O.
Matt O'Toole
>
> Thanks for the replies clarifying things for me.
>
> The economics is wicked. Bar-end shifters are supposed to be cheaper than
> integrated shifters, but the bar-end-shifters-equipped (boutique) bicycles
> are more expensive. I think even the 520 is over-priced.
I thought DA barends were about $70. Even Sora brifters are over $100.
Not to mention all the older units you can pick up on eBay.
> It is also interesting the Portland commuter from Trek is not spec'd
> with bar-end shifters. I think they are not as marketable as "new and
> better" integrated shifters.
Brifters are still pretty reliable, and most people actually do prefer them.
Matt O.