MSR Dragonfly - help needed
Walter Mitty
I recently took delivery of my new MSR Dragonfly stove. Bought a litre of
Colman Fuel to fill the recommended MSR Fuel bottle.
Previously I had used a good old reliable Trangia.
The problem is that it (the MSR) is simply not up to expectations. It's
taking 15 minutes to boil enough water for two cups of tea. I've primed it
right, the flame is full & roaring with a nice blue flame. This is not what
I expected.
Is the fuel simply not exuding enough burn heat?
Any tips/tricks or URL pointers much appreciated.
--
Walter Mitty.
Gary S.
>
>I recently took delivery of my new MSR Dragonfly stove. Bought a litre of
>Colman Fuel to fill the recommended MSR Fuel bottle.
>
>Previously I had used a good old reliable Trangia.
>
>The problem is that it (the MSR) is simply not up to expectations. It's
>taking 15 minutes to boil enough water for two cups of tea. I've primed it
>right, the flame is full & roaring with a nice blue flame. This is not what
>I expected.
>
>Is the fuel simply not exuding enough burn heat?
>
Assuming the adjustable flame is set to high, and the bottle pressure
is correct:
Is the bottle full to the top, or filled to the line as recommended,
leaving some air space above the fuel for pressurizing?
Are you using the heat/wind shield, both parts?
I don't recall the test times, but you should be able to bring a pint
of water to a boil in well under 5 minutes, the testing is often done
with a quart or liter of water.
Check with someone else who owns one, or go back to the shop, to make
certain that the flame is full.
Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence
Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom
Brian Sniatkowski
or so minutes. I'd send it back to the dealer.
Bill
difference. I've had a Dragonfly for about a year and mine heats like a
champ. The only problem I've had was with the cheap plastic pump MSR uses
on the fuel bottle, not with the stove itself.
Edward Harrison
Are you using an open container? Get a pot with a tight-fitted lid. Also,
try using heavy foil to form a chimney around the pot so that the heat
passes along the sides, too. A lot of heat is lost laterally.
--
Edward Harrison USN(ret)
Walter Mitty
news:3ee47...@spamkiller.newsgroups.com he conjectured that:
Yes I am using the reflectors. And very fiddly they appear too. In
addition, the reflectors appear a bit weak : do they crack after time?
--
Walter Mitty.
Lloyd Bowles
"Walter Mitty" <n...@no.com> wrote in message
news:Xns939595039E...@127.0.0.1...
>> Yes I am using the reflectors. And very fiddly they appear too. In
> addition, the reflectors appear a bit weak : do they crack after time?
The foil windscreen & bottom reflector are quite durable. They are very
practical for a stove that is meant for backpacking because they are light &
compact. They also work well to block wind & increase efficiency.
How wide is your pot or kettle? I found why my small diameter coffee perk
was slow to boil. I used it on a stove in the dark & found that the circle
of flame was much larger than the perk. Most of the stove's heat was
wasted. I get a faster boil with a pot that is wide enough to cover the
flame.
--
Lloyd Bowles
The Mad Canoeist!
"Keep the open side up!"
http://www.madcanoeist.4ever.cc
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Rico
> It's taking 15 minutes to boil enough water....
I found that even when the stove appears to be roaring away
(it's a loud unit), pumping it an extra 20-30 times can *really*
get it roaring loudly, and get water boiling a lot faster.
Walter Mitty
wit when in news:3ee4995a$0$19...@fountain.mindlink.net he conjectured
that:
>
> "Walter Mitty" <n...@no.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns939595039E...@127.0.0.1...
>
>>> Yes I am using the reflectors. And very fiddly they appear too. In
>> addition, the reflectors appear a bit weak : do they crack after
>> time?
>
> The foil windscreen & bottom reflector are quite durable. They are
> very practical for a stove that is meant for backpacking because they
> are light & compact. They also work well to block wind & increase
> efficiency.
>
> How wide is your pot or kettle? I found why my small diameter coffee
> perk was slow to boil. I used it on a stove in the dark & found that
> the circle of flame was much larger than the perk. Most of the
> stove's heat was wasted. I get a faster boil with a pot that is wide
> enough to cover the flame.
>
Thanks for reply.
Yes I use a quite large pot (from my Trangia kit) : I'm going to retry
using a sealed lid as suggested by another poster.
--
Walter Mitty.
Gary S.
>"Lloyd Bowles" <lbo...@tnt21.com> brightened my day with his incisive
>wit when in news:3ee4995a$0$19...@fountain.mindlink.net he conjectured
>that:
>
>>
>> "Walter Mitty" <n...@no.com> wrote in message
>> news:Xns939595039E...@127.0.0.1...
>>
>>>> Yes I am using the reflectors. And very fiddly they appear too. In
>>> addition, the reflectors appear a bit weak : do they crack after
>>> time?
>>
>> The foil windscreen & bottom reflector are quite durable. They are
>> very practical for a stove that is meant for backpacking because they
>> are light & compact. They also work well to block wind & increase
>> efficiency.
>>
You can also buy replacement windscreen sets for short money.
>Yes I use a quite large pot (from my Trangia kit) : I'm going to retry
>using a sealed lid as suggested by another poster.
Also, if you look at the test procedures, they often start with room
temperature water, 70F, while in the real world, you might be starting
with much colder water.
doc
I second the recommendation to pump the pressure up with another 15-20
pumps.
Regards,
doc
Gary S.
>I second the recommendation to pump the pressure up with another 15-20
>pumps.
>
Better to start with too low pressure and add, as there is no simple
and safe way to reduce pressure in the bottle.
Robertwgross
You can pump them up and light them and let them go, and you may or may not get
a fast boil time. If the stove is running at only 80% or 90% effectively, you
will get a rather slow boil time. Especially in cold weather, you really have
to max the thing out 100% to get a decent boil time. That means plenty of tank
pressure, all stove parts in position, flame spread correctly, appropriate size
pot, etc.
To max it out, I place a large piece of aluminum foil over the top of the pot
so that it covers the wind shield and everything. It should not be air tight,
as the stove needs to have that air flow/convection going. However, the extra
foil simply helps retain some of the heat from being wasted straight up.
The only problem is that the pot bail or handle will get incredibly hot, and if
you try to grab it, your finger tips will be toasted instantly. That is easy to
learn.
Further, if you are forced into the situation of cooking inside the vestibule
of a tent, then use another large layer of aluminum foil nearer to the tent
fabric as a flare guard. I had to do this for over one week, and I got enough
practice that the tent was never singed, the stove had plenty of venting, and
yet our cooking happened on schedule, despite the cold.
---Bob Gross---
doc
True, especially within a certain range. Although my family owns a
Dragonfly, most of my white gas stove experience is with an MSR Whisperlite
International. I find that even 30-40 pumps is quite manageable, while 15
or so is often insufficient. I'll have to play some more with the dragonfly
to see if it is any different in this regard.
Regards,
doc
doc
More good ideas, Bob.
doc
Bill Tuthill
> You can pump them up and light them and let them go, and you may
> or may not get a fast boil time. If the stove is running at only
> 80% or 90% effectively, you will get a rather slow boil time.
> Especially in cold weather, you really have to max the thing out 100%
> to get decent boil times. That means plenty of tank pressure, all
> parts in position, flame spread correctly, appropriate size pot, etc.
What is the (diamater of an) appropriate size pot for the Dragonfly?
Presumably too small would waste heat, too large would ... what?
Robertwgross
>What is the (diamater of an) appropriate size pot for the Dragonfly?
>Presumably too small would waste heat, too large would ... what?
Most of the stove tests that I have seen specify a certain pot, like one litre
of water in a 1.5 litre aluminum pot. I suppose that you can try to get
non-standard results by using a tall pot (like a billy pot) or a flat skillet.
There are heavy-duty coated aluminum alloy pots, and there are lightweight
titanium pots, and there is everything in between.
I think the pot that is too large screws up the flame/heat/air patterns. Also,
an oversized pot will act like a heat radiator and get rid of too much heat
that is not boiling the water.
When I am trying to boil only a small portion of water (like, two cups), I've
found the little MSR Pocket Rocket (butane blend) to have a very efficient
small flame.
However, of course, if you are trying to melt four litres of snow, you need a
big pot. Otherwise, it becomes labor intensive.
---Bob Gross---
Robertwgross
>True, especially within a certain range. Although my family owns a
>Dragonfly, most of my white gas stove experience is with an MSR Whisperlite
>International. I find that even 30-40 pumps is quite manageable, while 15
>or so is often insufficient. I'll have to play some more with the dragonfly
>to see if it is any different in this regard.
last 25 years. If you really over-pump it, you can get enough pressure that it
will blow itself out or at least have a terribly inefficient flame.
One key bit of experience was on a trip of about ten days. After the first day
or two, I was completely tuned in for exactly how full the fuel bottle should
be, how many strokes to pump it, how much to prime it, etc. I guess it is just
a practical application of thermodynamics.
I think we are all in agreement that for any MSR white gas stove, you really
need to experiment with it at home and find out its proper care and feeding. I
own about four, and each one has its own characteristics.
---Bob Gross---
Gary S.
>On Mon, 09 Jun 2003 18:14:22 GMT, Gary S. <Idontwantspam@net> wrote:
>
>>Better to start with too low pressure and add, as there is no simple
>>and safe way to reduce pressure in the bottle.
>>
>True, especially within a certain range. Although my family owns a
>Dragonfly, most of my white gas stove experience is with an MSR Whisperlite
>International. I find that even 30-40 pumps is quite manageable, while 15
>or so is often insufficient. I'll have to play some more with the dragonfly
>to see if it is any different in this regard.
>
From what I have seen, many people who started out with Coleman
products and then switch to MSR tend to significantly overpump a
Whisperlite.
I have not had any experience with a Dragonfly, so I couldn't gauge
it, but the instructions talk about the same pressure as with the
Whisperlite and the rest of their liquid fuel stoves.
They recommend 20-25 pump strokes for a 22 oz bottle filled to the
line.
Captain Dondo
> What is the (diamater of an) appropriate size pot for the Dragonfly?
> Presumably too small would waste heat, too large would ... what?
Ummm... (Tentative hand up) ... Create heat????
-Dondo :-)
John T.
in the pot during this "test"?
15 minutes under "normal" conditions is silly, Mitty!
"Walter Mitty" <n...@no.com> wrote in message
news:Xns939588F8FD...@127.0.0.1...
Newby
"John T." <jtra...@fast.net> wrote in message
news:0V8Fa.193$he1...@news.randori.com...
Walter Mitty
when in news:0V8Fa.193$he1...@news.randori.com he conjectured that:
> What's your altitude, wind speed, air temp, water temp and amount of
> water in the pot during this "test"?
> 15 minutes under "normal" conditions is silly, Mitty!
>
>
Precisely why I posted. Conditions : normal day out in June. 22 degrees, a
few clouds and no wind :)
--
Walter Mitty.
Mike Tamada
[...]
> To max it out, I place a large piece of aluminum foil over the top of the pot
> so that it covers the wind shield and everything. It should not be air tight,
> as the stove needs to have that air flow/convection going. However, the extra
> foil simply helps retain some of the heat from being wasted straight up.
>
> The only problem is that the pot bail or handle will get incredibly hot, and if
> you try to grab it, your finger tips will be toasted instantly. That is easy to
> learn.
This sounds like a good idea (the top foil part, not the burning finger part)
which I've never tried. I think I can probably use my pot-lifter to grab
the lid off my pot (yeah I could use a bandana, but the pot-lifter will be
right there anyway).
> Further, if you are forced into the situation of cooking inside the vestibule
> of a tent, then use another large layer of aluminum foil nearer to the tent
> fabric as a flare guard. I had to do this for over one week, and I got enough
> practice that the tent was never singed, the stove had plenty of venting, and
> yet our cooking happened on schedule, despite the cold.
Where do you place the foil? Between the stove and the tent? Or between
the stove and the vestibule ceiling? The biggest flare danger would seem
to be upward, but I'm having trouble visualizing how you protect it with
the foil.
When I'm in practice, I don't have much problem with flaring. But
getting back to the original question about boil times, starting with
my first MSR ... what was it, the Firefly in the early 1980s? ... to my
several-years-old MSR Whisperlight Internationale, I've never been able to
get my boil time for a quart below 10 minutes. That's with little wind,
using the reflector and windscreen, a pot which I think is right-sized,
temps usually 60 to 75 degs F. Water temp ranging from cold mountain
stream to tap water temp. News stoves and old, fresh white gas and old.
Kerosene too for that matter.
I guess I need to fiddle around with it some more.
--MKT
Robertwgross
>Where do you place the foil? Between the stove and the tent? Or between
>the stove and the vestibule ceiling? The biggest flare danger would seem
>to be upward, but I'm having trouble visualizing how you protect it with the
foil.
Well, with minimal practice you should not have a flare higher than one foot,
and that is only for a few seconds. So, you don't need two inches of asbestos
to stop that.
When I am lighting the stove, I have the top foil piece cocked off to the side,
between the stove wind screen and the tent vestibule fabric. Then I have my
flare guard foil piece kind of there and slightly above. The vestibule is about
2.5 feet high, so it works for me. You could set a foil piece anywhere that the
flare will go. Instead of ordinary aluminum foil, buy either heavy duty
aluminum foil or extra heavy duty aluminum foil. I had about two square feet of
the latter and it did fine for ten days up high. Another place to use it is
underneath the stove burner to keep it from disappearing down into the snow. It
is best to wrap the foil around a piece of cardboard for stiffness.
---Bob Gross---
Ed Huesers
Robertwgross wrote:
> However, of course, if you are trying to melt four litres of snow, you
> need a big pot. Otherwise, it becomes labor intensive.
I tend to agree, I use a 1 1/2 litter aluminum for snow but if you'd
want to try a smaller pot I've found that having a plastic bag full of
snow cuts out a lot of the inconvenience. I squeeze the bag and make a
snow ball inside, then open the bag and pick the snowball out. The snow
balls could be shaped long and thin for a cup sized pot.
The thing I like about it best is that I don't get my hands wet.
Ed Huesers
http://www.grandshelters.com
David Springthorpe
>True, especially within a certain range. Although my family owns a
>Dragonfly, most of my white gas stove experience is with an MSR Whisperlite
>International. I find that even 30-40 pumps is quite manageable, while 15
>or so is often insufficient. I'll have to play some more with the dragonfly
>to see if it is any different in this regard.
Number of pumps needed will depend on amount of fuel in bottle.....?
DS,
Sydney Australia.
DS
doc
Yes.
doc
Bill
looking, why yes, the reflectors are a bit "fiddley". I've used mine
heavily over the past 2 years and the reflectors don't crack, although they
get really wrinkley and grungey. I'm falling into the pressure people's
court. You need lots of pressure. Also, I noticed that if I don't get the
nipple from the hose into the tank just right (tight), I get terrible
results. Anyway, good luck. It appears we've exhausted the obvious causes
of the problem.
Anonymo421
I think it refers to something you have to "fiddle" or futz or generally dick
around with in order to get it to work.
Chick Tower
> The problem is that it (the MSR) is simply not up to expectations. It's
> taking 15 minutes to boil enough water for two cups of tea. I've primed it
> right, the flame is full & roaring with a nice blue flame.
When do you start timing this operation, Walter? Is it when you start to
assemble the stove? Is it when the stove priming is finished, and you
set the pot on it? Somewhere in between?
Fifteen minutes does sound far too long to boil two cups of water. I
don't mean to insult your intelligence, but do you realize the stove
flame is adjustable? Do you turn it up high to boil water?
Chick
=====================================================
For e-mail replies, please use cetower76ATyahooDOTcom
Gary S.
We could also say operator intensive.
Anonymo421
>> The problem is that it (the MSR) is simply not up to expectations. It's
>> taking 15 minutes to boil enough water for two cups of tea. I've primed it
>> right, the flame is full & roaring with a nice blue flame.
>
>When do you start timing this operation, Walter? Is it when you start to
>assemble the stove? Is it when the stove priming is finished, and you
>set the pot on it? Somewhere in between?
>
>Fifteen minutes does sound far too long to boil two cups of water. I
>don't mean to insult your intelligence, but do you realize the stove
>flame is adjustable? Do you turn it up high to boil water?
>
> Chick
Agreed. Either he's got a defective stove, or he doesn't know what he's doing.
Does MSR even make a stove that takes > 5min to boil a quart anymore? Perhaps
he is using it in windy conditions without a windscreen (didn't see the whole
first post).
John Wayman
pots. The windshield is designed for 6" to 8" pots.
I regularly use the Dragonfly with 10" Outback oven and works well. I just
shield the fuel bottle with the flat (folded up) windshield.
"Bill Tuthill" <ca_cr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ve9pm97...@corp.supernews.com...
Walter Mitty
when in news:20030611001635...@mb-m17.aol.com he conjectured
that:
Thanks for the vote of confidence guys. As I said in the post, the flame
is full.
Must be a faulty stove.
--
Walter Mitty.
Walter Mitty
news:Xns939588F8FD...@127.0.0.1 he conjectured that:
>
> I recently took delivery of my new MSR Dragonfly stove. Bought a litre
> of Colman Fuel to fill the recommended MSR Fuel bottle.
>
> Previously I had used a good old reliable Trangia.
>
> The problem is that it (the MSR) is simply not up to expectations.
> It's taking 15 minutes to boil enough water for two cups of tea. I've
> primed it right, the flame is full & roaring with a nice blue flame.
> This is not what I expected.
>
> Is the fuel simply not exuding enough burn heat?
>
> Any tips/tricks or URL pointers much appreciated.
>
>
Many thanks for all the replies (even to the guys who suggested that
maybe I'd forgotten to turn the stove up... :)) : I'll run some more
tests with a lidded pot and extra pump pressure.
--
Walter Mitty.
doc
...and fuel from another can of Coleman from another (high volume) store.
Sometimes it can sit in inventory a long time.
doc
Martin Thornquist
> Many thanks for all the replies (even to the guys who suggested that
> maybe I'd forgotten to turn the stove up... :)) : I'll run some more
> tests with a lidded pot and extra pump pressure.
As for pressure, I usually pump 30-35 strokes on my Dragonfly, with
kerosene. That lasts awhile before needing repumping.
Also, maybe you should do your tests with the bottle only about half
full, so you're completely sure you get enough pressure.
Martin
--
"An ideal world is left as an exercise to the reader."
-Paul Graham, On Lisp