Gore-Tex vs. ???
Don Newcomb
garments made without Gore-Tex. Some of these have names like
"Ultrex" or "Bergundta"l Cloth" (Bergandt{l on a Swedish keyboard).
These often seem less expensive than their Gore-Tex counterparts.
This may be another one of those "beat-to-death" questions but
when I finally replace my "oilskins" will these do the job for
me as well as Gore-Tex?
Donald Newcomb
new...@navo.navy.mil
Eric Jeschke
The big difference between these fabrics and Gore-Tex is that
Gore-Tex is a separate microporous *membrane*, bonded to uncoated nylon
whereas Ultrex, etc. are all microporous *coatings* applied to the
fabric. These coatings may wear off after a period of heavy use.
I don't know how well they breathe compared to Gore-Tex.
--
Eric Jeschke | Indiana University
jes...@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu | Computer Science Department
Mike Swatko
In article <1992Feb28.1...@news.cs.indiana.edu>, jes...@blacktip.cs.indiana.edu (Eric Jeschke) writes:
>From: jes...@blacktip.cs.indiana.edu (Eric Jeschke)
>Subject: Re: Gore-Tex vs. ???
>Date: 28 Feb 92 16:09:00 GMT
>Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Gore-Tex uses a teflon membrane that is then laminated (glued) to a
fabric. The membrane by itself is relatively fragile - so if the
membrane delaminates from the fabric, it is easily torn.
Ultrex, on the other hand, uses a microporous coating that is quite durable,
and adheres stongly to the fabric. The Ultrex coating is so elastic and
resilient that it's even kind of tough to poke through it with a pencil -
it's kind of like trying to poke a pencil through a thin rubber band.
On the down-side though, Ultrex less breathable than Gore-Tex.
Columbia's Bergundtal Cloth is not a water*proof* fabric, it's only
water resistant so I would not consider it to be in the same category.
I have to laugh at the ads that say "the pores in the membrane are
so small that water molecules can't pass through, yet large enough
that water vapor passes readily through." Cut me a break! A water molecule
is the same size whether the water is in the form of a vapor, a liquid, or
a solid for that matter.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Swatko ! swa...@airbag.dec.com
Digital Equipment Corporation ! swa...@airbag.enet.dec.com
Corporate User Publications Engineering ! swatko%air...@decwrl.dec.com
Nashua, New Hampshire ! ...!decwrl!airbag.enet!swatko
===========================================================================
Ken Meinken
Regarding Gortex vs. the other "waterproof, breathable" materials,
a recent issue (Winter, I think) of "Boundary Waters Journal" had
a good review of raingear materials. The article maintained that
Gortex by far had the best breathability.
The writer is a well experienced Boundary Waters traveller. And the
lakes up in the BWCA (northern Minnesota) are the result of a lot
of rain. I'm a believer.
Ken
W. Michael Todd
have a outer coated nylon shell. It is usually this shell that repels
most of the water. I have had several Gore-Tex garments that once the
nylon coating wore off, I became soaked. Gore-Tex easily rips, as soon
as it gets dirty it no longer works, you will still get wet from your
perspiration if you are exerting hard, and it is very expensive.
Gore-Tex is beneficial in stoping wind and if you scotch-guard your
outer layer when it starts to wear off you will have a relatively
waterproof and wind proof garment, but don't rely solely on the
Gore-Tex layer. If your budget is low I would reccomend buying just
coated nylon. If you are going to be spending a fair amount of time in
extreme conditions then I would spend the extra money and buy the
Gore-Tex garment with the coated nylon.
===============================
W. Michael Todd
Dartmouth Outing Club
Dartmouth College
W.Micha...@dartmouth.edu
===============================
Warren Hennig
>Gore-Tex is (IMHO) completely overrated!
Most of my friends would agree with this statement. The other day we were
sitting on a chairlift when my friend said that Goretex is great, it soaks
up all of the water so no one else gets wet. I looked down and he had one
big wet spot over one knee where he had touched the snow. It seems that the
standard question is, "Does your coat still work"?
--
Warren Hennig w...@apss.apss.ab.ca 403-427-2772
"It's not the thing you fling but the fling itself."
Chinson Yi
: In article <1992Mar9.1...@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> W.Micha...@dartmouth.edu (W. Michael Todd) writes:
: >Gore-Tex is (IMHO) completely overrated!
:
: Most of my friends would agree with this statement. The other day we were
: sitting on a chairlift when my friend said that Goretex is great, it soaks
: up all of the water so no one else gets wet. I looked down and he had one
: big wet spot over one knee where he had touched the snow. It seems that the
: standard question is, "Does your coat still work"?
: --
I guess Gore-Tex's "Guarantee to keep you dry" statement is not true????
Does anyone know how Gore-Tex tests their material?
--
/\~ /\ O\_ "Where should I sleep tonight?"
~/\/\/ \~ +--\\\
~~ ~~~~~ ~~ | /|@
/ \ \ | \ \ Chinson Yi (chi...@cs.ucla.edu 310-206-3584)
Alan Hawrylyshen
w...@apss.ab.ca (Warren Hennig) writes: : (stuff about chairlift and snow deleted)
I guess Gore-Tex's "Guarantee to keep you dry" statement is not true????
Does anyone know how Gore-Tex tests their material?
My experience with Gore-Tex generally is not the same. I stay quite dry in my
Gore-Tex if I take the care not to over exert and get wet from the inside.
Last summer while biking into a climb on Mt. Assiniboine, my friend and I were
caught in a torential down pour. Yes, the jacket lost some of it's water
repellancy, and thus the _fabric_ was wet, but the inside liner was still dry.
Gore performs a fairly rigourous testing on all garments that are sold for
"Extreme Wet". One thing that I have noticed about Gore-Tex garments however,
is that taking the time to find a 3 layer jacket with taped seams makes all the
difference in the world. A Gore-Tex jacket that leaks at the seams won't do
you much good. :-) (Expensive wind parka).
--
al...@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Dept. of Computer Science
Alan B. Hawrylyshen University of Calgary, CANADAland
"The freedom to be, is gained with the freedom to see."
Mark M. Kornfein
>w...@apss.ab.ca (Warren Hennig) writes:
>: In article <1992Mar9.1...@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> W.Micha...@dartmouth.edu (W. Michael Todd) writes:
>: >Gore-Tex is (IMHO) completely overrated!
>:
>Does anyone know how Gore-Tex tests their material?
I've never heard of this guarentee does anyone have anymore information on it?
I have several Gore-Tex items none of which keep me dry in a good rain.
My Gore-Tex always keeps me dry on those sunny days-).
===============================================================================
Mark Kornfein INET: korn...@crd.ge.com
GE Corporate R&D Center UUCP: uunet!crd.ge.com!kornfein
Schenectady, NY
Hal Lillywhite
>In article <1992Mar10....@cs.ucla.edu> chi...@kona.cs.ucla.edu (Chinson Yi) writes:
>>I guess Gore-Tex's "Guarantee to keep you dry" statement is not true????
>>Does anyone know how Gore-Tex tests their material?
>I've never heard of this guarentee does anyone have anymore information on it?
>I have several Gore-Tex items none of which keep me dry in a good rain.
>My Gore-Tex always keeps me dry on those sunny days-).
The guarantee does not apply to all Gore-Tex products, only those
labeled "Raingear without compromise." These undergo extra testing
aside from being made from only top quality materials to begin with.
Gore runs them through some severe testing to see that they will
withstand a real downpour.
Tim Beach
>: >Gore-Tex is (IMHO) completely overrated!
>:
>: Most of my friends would agree with this statement. The other day we were
>: sitting on a chairlift when my friend said that Goretex is great, it soaks
>: up all of the water so no one else gets wet. I looked down and he had one
>: big wet spot over one knee where he had touched the snow. It seems that the
>: standard question is, "Does your coat still work"?
>: --
>
>
weekend at Snowshoe WV. The "snow" was very wet; we had rain, drizzle, hail,
and a thunderstorm. My knee hit the ground alot and I had a few (many?)
rolling falls, as my telemarking is still marginal. My Merrill boots leaked,
but my inner layer of clothing was bone dry. I think my Gore-Tex coat works.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Beach | phone: 216-826-6750
NASA Lewis Research Center |
Cleveland, Ohio 44135 | email: fsj...@tua.lerc.nasa.gov
Steve LaSala
>chi...@kona.cs.ucla.edu (Chinson Yi) writes:
> w...@apss.ab.ca (Warren Hennig) writes:
> : W.Micha...@dartmouth.edu (W. Michael Todd) writes:
> : >Gore-Tex is (IMHO) completely overrated!
> :
> : (stuff about chairlift and snow deleted)
> : "Does your coat still work?"
>
> I guess Gore-Tex's "Guarantee to keep you dry" statement is not true????
> Does anyone know how Gore-Tex tests their material?
*Sigh* Here we go again...
>My experience with Gore-Tex generally is not the same. I stay quite dry in my
>Gore-Tex if I take the care not to over exert and get wet from the inside.
Likewise. My coat and pants still work after about five years of
hard use in all seasons (hiking, skiing, mountaineering, ice climbing, random
around-town wear) I wash, repair, and Scotchgard them when necessary. Many
people seem to think Gt will break the laws of physics, and are disappointed
when it doesn't. If your combination of weather and activity are such that you
would perspire in a turtleneck or t-shirt, then you will perspire in GT and, if
your garment is of 2-layer construction, you will get the liner wet. In a warm,
humid summer rain I still prefer a coated nylon poncho.
>Last summer while biking into a climb on Mt. Assiniboine, my friend and I were
>caught in a torential down pour. Yes, the jacket lost some of it's water
>repellancy, and thus the _fabric_ was wet, but the inside liner was still dry.
Right; that's what the Scotchgard is all about. To keep the outer
backing fabric drier.
>Gore performs a fairly rigourous testing on all garments that are sold for
They do work closely with many designers and manufacturers and test
each model of garment in a multi-directional shower chamber. I doubt they
test each and every garment, which may not have been meant above, but could
be misconstrued.
>"Extreme Wet". One thing that I have noticed about Gore-Tex garments however,
>is that taking the time to find a 3 layer jacket with taped seams makes all the
>difference in the world. A Gore-Tex jacket that leaks at the seams won't do
>you much good. :-) (Expensive wind parka).
Yes; design is extremely important. I would bet that, with the
rapidly expanding number of clothing manufacturers using GT, Gore is not
able to work with each and every one. The application market is expanding,
too, from traditional backcountry garments and manufacturers to purpose-
esigned downhill skiwear and around-town jackets, which have constraints
and specifications that may be at odds with waterproofness and breathability.
I saw a jacket the other day that had the words "gore-tex" embroidered on the
sleeve, apparently without any sealing tape behind them; talk about a
gratuitous breach of waterproofness!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Standard GoreTex posting follows:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Introduction to GoreTex Steve LaSala
las...@cs.cornell.edu
November, 1991
Goretex is a thinly stretched teflon film (polytetrafluroethelyne,
or PTFE) which is laminated to another fabric. There are two-layer
constructions, which require a lining to protect the GoreTex, and three-layer,
in which a thin tricot scrim is laminated to the inside. The former drapes
better, is more flexible and supple, but breathes less well, and the lining
can absorb and hold moisture. The latter can be somewhat stiff, but breathes
better, is more abrasion-resistant, and does not frost up inside so readily in
the cold. Some recent two-layer garments have a mesh lining, which may well
close the gap, but I haven't tried them.
The working principle of GoreTex is that the teflon is stretched so
that it develops numerous microscopic holes (10^9 per square inch, supposedly)
which are too small to permit the passage of liquid water droplets, but allow
perspiration vapor to escape. Of course, this depends on the existence of
a vapor-pressure gradient across the fabric. Thus, in a high-humidity
environment, there will be less vapor transport. Note, however, that in
a really high-humidity environment, you will perspire wearing nothing at
all, so it is really a bit much to expect to stay dry inside a jacket.
In the winter, outside humidity is generally low even if the relative
humidity is high, because cold air just can't hold as much moisture as warm
air. Moisture transport is generally good, but there can be some problems
with frosting on the inside of the shell if the fabric becomes cold enough to
flash-freeze perspiration vapor on contact, before it passes through the pores.
IMHO, GoreTex should be judged in comparison with the alternatives,
not with some ideal world of perfect dryness and warmth. Seen this way, it
is more waterproof than anything else remotely breathable, more windproof
than any other known fabric, and more breathable than any other truly
waterproof fabric. It is still necessary, as with any other clothing, to
regulate your heat and moisture output to minimize sensible perspiration (*)
and avoid overheating. When working hard, open vents, remove hats and extra
layers, wear a layer of synthetic underwear next to the skin to stay somewhat
dry, and moderate your pace if you must. Of course, all this will vary with
your metabolism.
(*) This is the water on your skin when you exercise, as distinguished from
insensible perspiration, which is a slow release of water vapor that goes on
all the time just to keep your skin moist enough that it doesn't crack. Where
GoreTex really shines is in venting insensible perspiration so you don't get
wet just standing around like you would in a plastic bag or a coated rainsuit.
The pores can handle the increase in vapor production that comes with moderate
exertion, but heavy exercise will overload the system and force you to vent
(see above). Again, this will vary with your individual metabolism.
My personal experiences with GoreTex have been rather positive:
Example 1) Wearing GoreTex parka, pants, and gaiters over lightweight
long underwear, I hiked uphill with a large pack on for several hours in a
light rain at a temperature of about 50 degF, remaining comfortably dryish
and warm. In the height of summer (> 70 degF and > 60% humidity) I substitute
a poncho for the GoreTex suit, but for the rest of the year, the extra expense
is worth it.
Example 2) I put on cotton sweatpants and three-layer GoreTex pants
with coated patches on the seat and knees to go XC-skiing at about 25 degF.
Afterwards, the sweatpants were completely dry except for the parts under the
seat/knee patches, which were wringing wet. The two-layer parka proved too
much for nordic skiing, and I had to remove it to avoid overheating and
soaking the nylon lining. It did fine, though, in colder temperatures and
for lower-energy activities like walking.
On numerous occasions, GoreTex garments have blocked completely
winds that would have forced their way through ordinary uncoated nylon.
One area in which I am down on GoreTex is for use in boots. It will
indeed keep you dry for a day or so in slush, snow, and rain, but the boots
in which it is used are usually light enough that they will let you get wet
in some indirect way by the second day. Beware leather; where it stretches,
GoreTex may tear instead (as mine did). Also, the GoreTex boots seem much
hotter than others in dry conditions, leading to excessive perspiration and
wet, cold socks. I think the large amounts of perspiration that feet produce
may have clogged the pores and made the GoreTex less breathable, and there is
no way to wash it. Perhaps GoreTex socks (now available) would work better.
GoreTex garments should be washed periodically to remove body oils,
dirt, and other contaminants that might clog the pores. The manufacturer
recommends a non-liquid detergent such as Ivery Snow and does not endorse
any of the "special GoreTex soaps" on the market. Spraying the outside of
the garment with Scotchgard or a similar silicone spray after washing will
help keep water from soaking into the outer fabric, which can block the
pores in the GoreTex and inhibit breathability even if the liquid cannot get
through them.
Quality design and construction is also important for GoreTex garments.
It does no good to have waterproof fabric if the seams leak. The best pieces
have their seams sealed with heat-sensitive tape to prevent leakage (You can
feel it through the fabric.) although the technique has only just been applied
to mittens and not yet to gloves (**) due to limitations in the heat-sealing
machinery. Unsealed seams should be coated with one of the many seam sealers
available, but this is not as good a solution as the tape.
(**) Instead, most gloves let the outer shell leak and count on an inner,
seamless GoreTex liner to keep the wearer dry.
W. L. Gore, Inc. works with maufacturers to design and test products
that will uphold their good name. The "guaranteed to keep you dry" and
(even better) "engineered for extreme wet weather" (***) classifications are
achieved by passing a test whereby the garment is put on a water-sensitive
mannekin and placed in a multi-head shower for a period of hours. I have
even participated in a derivative of this test myself, in which a volunteer
(me) puts on GoreTex parka, pants, socks, and gloves and steps into a
glass-walled shower set up in the front window of a store (This was at
Midwest Mountaineering, in Minneapolis.) I had a fun time waving to bemused
passers-by and stayed completely dry during about five minutes of full-on
showering. One glove was plastic, rather than GoreTex, and showed noticeable
perspiration on the inside, being non-breathable.
(***) This highest grade may be more than is needed in skiwear, which will
rarely be worn in heavy rain if you are lucky.
An excellent source of theoretical and practical information about
GoreTex and other outdoor fabrics is Glenn Randall's book "Cold Comfort".
It has a mountaineering focus, but is useful for any outdoorsperson.
Dan Liddell
>: In article <1992Mar9.1...@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> W.Micha...@dartmouth.edu (W. Michael Todd) writes:
>: >Gore-Tex is (IMHO) completely overrated!
>:
>: Most of my friends would agree with this statement. The other day we were
>: sitting on a chairlift when my friend said that Goretex is great, it soaks
>: up all of the water so no one else gets wet. I looked down and he had one
>: big wet spot over one knee where he had touched the snow. It seems that the
>: standard question is, "Does your coat still work"?
>: --
>
>
>I guess Gore-Tex's "Guarantee to keep you dry" statement is not true????
>Does anyone know how Gore-Tex tests their material?
>
I can't take this badmouthing any more. I bought a gore-tex shell from
north face 8 years ago (got matching rainpants, too). I was a
pedestrian, and it was a rainy winter. I got a nylon taslan/tricot
laminate, with goretex between the tough outer taslan and the smooth
inner tricot. The seams were sealed with goretex tape.
It worked great. Kept me dry in pouring rain (except when it was
windy, when it blew the rain into the hood, down my chin, and down my
neck).
After I got a car, I no longer wore it in the pouring rain. I
eventually wore holes through it (through the tough exterior nylon).
Still worked great in light showers and as a water vapor permeable
windbreaker it couldn't be beat.
A year ago the zipper finally died, and I took it into northface in
Palo Alto, CA to get it repaired. The woman asked me if it leaked, and
I said yes, it has HOLES in it, it HAS to leak. She told me that it
was unconditionally guaranteed to keep water out, and that they would
replace it for me.
They did. I got a very nice jacket, although not the same durability
as the first one I bought (it would be much more expensive than the
$120 I spent so long ago). Even though I was sort of attached to the
old shell, I am very pleased with the deal.
It is true that the outer fabric of my jacket would absorb water, but
none of it got in (until I wore holes in it). And the sensation of
cold from the wet exterior MIGHT be mistaken for leaking water.
I don't think goretex can be overrated.
--
Dan Liddell UUCP decwrl!teda!dll TELEPHONE 4089805200 USA
curb your dogma. The opinions and views expressed are Dan's.
Jordan Muss
>>:
>>I guess Gore-Tex's "Guarantee to keep you dry" statement is not true????
>>Does anyone know how Gore-Tex tests their material?
>
>I've never heard of this guarentee does anyone have anymore information on it?
There is a card that comes with the item to register it with Gore, but I
think that it has to follow their guidelines i.e. taped seams. Also if it
is NF, Marmot or one of the other quality companies then they guarantee
their stuff forever.
>
>I have several Gore-Tex items none of which keep me dry in a good rain.
My Gore-Tex stuff have always kept me totally dry except one that doesn't
have sealed seams (water soaks in through the stitching) or when I left it
at home;->.
Steve LaSala
>this shell that repels most of the water.
This is *NOT* true and is completely nonsensical. Why add another
water-barrier to an already coated garment? Why expect that this
will make it breathe? Why pay for useless redundancy?
>Gore-Tex easily rips,
That's a function of the backing fabric. My ballistics nylon/GT
gaiters resist crampons and ski edges quite well.
>as soon as it gets dirty it no longer works,
There's this great modern concept called "washing your clothes".
>you will still get wet from your perspiration if you are exerting hard,
So? This happens to me wearing a t-shirt, even in the winter if
I'm really working hard. Ever wonder why nordic ski racers wear
those uninsulated lycra suits?
>and it is very expensive.
You get (no more than) what you pay for.
>If your budget is low I would reccomend buying just coated nylon.
Good advice, or just uncoated nylon if you're looking for windwear
rather than rainwear.
W. Michael Todd
Well, I didn't mean to start such a fuss over Gore-Tex. It seems
people either love it or hate it. Emotions run high over a simple
product. I guess I was a little hard on it in the first place. I would
like to amend and paraphrase my original post now that I have stopped
stomping on my Gore-Tex jacket after it failed to keep me dry.
Gore-Tex as a fabric does work, laboratory tests have proven that.
What doesn't necessarily work are all the products made with it. If you
have a garment that has a Gore-Tex lining but the seams aren't taped,
then you are going to get wet. If the jacket is of cheap manufacture
then the Gore-Tex coating is easily ripped and soiled and as soon as
the scotch-guard wears off of the outer shell you become soaked. So
many new backcountry enthusiasts see the Gore-Tex label and think that
it is world's amswer to staying dry but if the garment's seams aren't
taped, if the Gore-Tex isn't laminated well, if it isn't protected from
getting soiled, etc. then you just bought an expensive wind parka. It
is expensive and just make sure you are getting your money's worth.
==================================
W. Michael Todd
Image Processing Lab
Dept. of Earth Sciences
Dartmouth College
W.Micha...@mac.dartmouth.edu
==================================
Quang-Tuan Luong
|> IMHO, GoreTex should be judged in comparison with the alternatives,
|> not with some ideal world of perfect dryness and warmth.
I agree, it is the best compromise, but still IT NOT WATERPROOF.
|> mannekin and placed in a multi-head shower for a period of hours. I have
|> even participated in a derivative of this test myself, in which a volunteer
|> (me) puts on GoreTex parka, pants, socks, and gloves and steps into a
|> glass-walled shower set up in the front window of a store (This was at
|> Midwest Mountaineering, in Minneapolis.) I had a fun time waving to bemused
|> passers-by and stayed completely dry during about five minutes of full-on
|> showering. One glove was plastic, rather than GoreTex, and showed noticeable
|> perspiration on the inside, being non-breathable.
The activity where waterproofness is the most critical is icefall climbing,
at least in Europe. Most very hard climbs are stalactitus, and even if the
temperature is very low, there is always a lot of water. It is sometimes
truly a shower. Then *in this kind of shower*, believe me, nobody can remain
dry. It is the experience of all ice-climbers in France, including the best
ones (who, I suppose use the best gear, as they are professionals) that you
cannot remain dry in a icefall with a lot of water. Why ?
The piece of equipment which is particularly critical is gloves: usually they
get wet even before the end of the first pitch. I think it is because of the
pressure that Goretex fails. I have noticed the same problem carrying packs:
the shoulders get quickly wet, whereas the rest of the body remains more dry.
Tuan.
Mikael Niku
Doesn't work. Indeed - according to test of the Scientific
Research Center of Finland (or something like that ;-) my
English is not too good).
They had gear of three kinds: expensive Gore-Tex (about $500),
cheaper microfibre (perhaps $200) and a cheap one (about $60).
They tested the gear with both people and the Sweating Doll
(the only one in the world, I guess) and the result was that
the Gore-Tex was the worst in keeping the guy inside dry.
Funny, isn't it ? The cheap $60 suit was better than the $500
Gore-Tex. Of course, the pricedoesn't always make the quality,
but the Gore-Tex suit was made by a company known for its
good quality. So it probably was not one of the WORST Gore-Tex
suits anyway.
--
----- Mikael Niku [a.k.a. Turilas]
***** E-Mail: au...@cleveland.freenet.edu
----- SnailMail: Puodinmaentie 23, 91900 Liminka, FINLAND
*********************************************************
moseley, austin
>
>I agree, it is the best compromise, but still IT NOT WATERPROOF.
>
>at least in Europe. Most very hard climbs are stalactitus, and even if the
>temperature is very low, there is always a lot of water. It is sometimes
>truly a shower. Then *in this kind of shower*, believe me, nobody can remain
>dry. It is the experience of all ice-climbers in France, including the best
>ones (who, I suppose use the best gear, as they are professionals) that you
I have a matched set of Moonstone parka and bibs from 1988, which I have used
almost exclusively in everything from hiking to iceclimbing, and they have
never leaked on me. I once broke through the ice on the top of a frozen
waterfall in Telluride; the water was like a firehose, filling my boots and
splashing all over me as I climbed up through the running water. My hands
and my legs from my knees down became iced up when I stopped to set up
the belay, but the rest of me was dry and warm. I usually carry a second pair
of gloves warming under my parka when I iceclimb, and they were dry as well.
I was wearing VBL socks, so my feet survived, too, though it was -10 degrees
F. I have leaned against wet ice for hours in my goretex and glissaded (soft)
snow in them, and I have had no wetness problems.
The reason why ones hands get wet is because of sweat, reaching down for
gear, and poor technique. Additionally, gloves are harder to seal. I was once
with a Chouinard (Black Diamond) rep who cooed about his wonderful gloves,
until the 2d pitch of an iceclimb when they leaked...Next to slings and
runners, gloves are the next most-throwaway item in climbing. It's better to
buy twice as much of a cheaper variety, than to buy only one expensive pair,
and keep a pair next to one's skin, where they are always warm..
A little thought and a little preparedness helps as much as the best
gear.
-- Austin moseley ...These views are mine only......
"And joy, after all, is the end of life. We do not live to eat and
make money. We eat and make money to be able to enjoy life. That
is what life means and what life is for." -George Leigh Mallory
David Myers
(in the Swiss Valais), skied down to 2000m, climbed on skins to about 2500m and
then skied back to 1500. It was snowing hard, with winds gusting well over 100
kph. Below 2000m the snow was very wet, and at 1500 the temperature was well
above freezing. In other words the conditions were not ideal (for the
non-English, this is called "understatement"). We were skiing for perhaps 5
hours, and I admit to falling over once or twice. (And, yes, my wife thinks I
am crazy.)
I wore an anorak shell (i.e. with no lining) weighing a little less than 1 kg
(say, 2 lbs). That way one can wear a Polarlight jacket underneath, or not,
depending on whether one is climbing up, or skiing down. The anorak is made by
Berghaus, has an integral hood, and cost about $300 (maybe more by now). The
Goretex is laminated to a very strong material, and all the seams are taped.
Despite the name, I am told that Berghaus is a British company.
The anorak was completely windproof. The outside became very wet, but when I
took it off, the inside felt moist, but no more than that. The woolen jacket I
had on underneath was slightly damp where it touched the anorak. Previously, in
similar circumstances wearing other materials (except for a cape made from
plastic sheeting), I have been, literally, soaked to the skin. I remember once
ringing the water out of my vest. And ski randonee in 100 kph winds wearing a
plastic cape presents other problems.
Conclusion? Goretex is not perfect, but my Berghaus anorak is by far the best
garment I have ever bought for mountaineering. Anything else this light, this
strong, this water proof, and that one can wear to climb in without suffering
from heat stroke, I have yet to find.
Ken Baldwin
>
>The anorak is made by Berghaus, has an integral hood,
>and cost about $300 (maybe more by now).
>for mountaineering.
Does anybody know if Berghaus equipment is available in the
US? I met an Englishmen in Arizona once with a very nice
internal frame pack made by Berghaus, and ever since I've
been curious to see their catalog.
Ken
BEHM CHRISTOPHER JOSEPH
>
>
>They had gear of three kinds: expensive Gore-Tex (about $500),
>cheaper microfibre (perhaps $200) and a cheap one (about $60).
>They tested the gear with both people and the Sweating Doll
>(the only one in the world, I guess) and the result was that
>the Gore-Tex was the worst in keeping the guy inside dry.
>
This test shows that a Goretex membrane is less breathable
i.e. able to pass water vapor, than microfiber or "cheap"
fabrics ( I will assume uncoated nylon ). We all know that.
The advantage of Goretex is that it is highly water and
windproof yet still offers _some_ breathablity.
Goretex is not the "miracle" membrane that some people
would lead you to believe. It is however, the best choice
for many situations.
John Mastrangelo
i...@ntia.its.bldr.nist.gov