Grizzly mauls hunter north of YNP
Ralph Maughan
maulings, so here is my contribution.
Bram Schaffer, an 18-year old Montanan was mauled last week on Horseshoe
Mountain in the Absaroka/Beartooth Wilderness about 8 miles north of
Yellowstone Park.
According to an AP story from Billings, MT, he "encountered the bear and
a large cub" while elk hunting by himself.
"While she mauled him, Schaffer kept his eye on his .270 Winchester
rifle, which was under the bear." "'I just paid attention to where my
gun went, because I knew there was nothing I could do to stop her unless
I could shoot her,' he said."
"She clawed and bit him for several seconds, then started away, but when
Schaffer reached for the rifle she turned toward him again. He fired,
the sow fell and the cub ran away."
Rangers searched for a day but didn't any trace of the sow.
Schaffer suffered a deep gash on his head and seven cuts on his arms and
right shoulder. His thigh wounds will require skin grafting.
After the mauling, Schaffer fired three shots as a distress signal and he
has found by two Billings residents at nightfall. Bruce Piasecki and
Bryce Piasecki of Billings carried Scheffer from the wilderness.
Schaffer's father, Dennis, said "We will hunt in pairs from now on."
--
Ralph Maughan
Pocatello, Idaho
STANDARD DISCLAIMER
Ralph Maughan
In another story of the inevitable Fall grizzly/human encounters, a
sub-adult grizzly female has been shot dead in Rodent Creek, in the Teton
Wilderness. The bear incident is one of two in the Teton wilderness this
hunting season (last year I believe there were 3 incidents in the Teton
Wilderness area; someone correct me if I am wrong).
Dan Larson, a 39-year old hunter from Minnesota killed the grizzly as it
charged him when he surprised it on the gut pile of a recently killed elk.
Investigators believe Larson shot the bear in a justifiable act of
self-defense.
Larson had apparently got within 120 yards of the feeding bear before the
bear got his scent. His hunting partner apparently warned him but too
late. The bear came diagonally up the hill toward him, and it stopped
about 20 yards from Larson and stood up on its hind legs.
Wyoming Game and Fish warden Fred Herbal said, "It [the bear] looked at
him, dropped on all fours and came directly at him. During this time the
guy was moving diagonally up the hill to try to get away and [he] fell
down into a large downfall with branches. The bear continued coming at
him. He fired one round from his 7mm mag and killed the bear instantly
at a distance of 10 to 12 feet. He fired from the ground, lying on his
back."
The Teton Wilderness, not to be confused with Grand Teton N.P., lies to
the south and southeast of Yellowstone National Park. Rodent Creek is
about 4 miles to the SE of Yellowstone Park's South Entrance.
The quotes above are from the "Jackson Hole News", Sept. 27 issue.
Ralph Maughan
investigating the mauling of a guide in the Thorofare region of the Teton
Wilderness area.
The guide is reported to be in satisfactory condition in a Cody, Wyoming
hospital after his being mauled on Sept. 24.
According to the "Jackson Hole News", "The guide and his client reported
encountering an adult female grizzly and a year old cub early Sunday
morning. As the bear chased the guide, the hunter shot the animal, said
Gary Brown, Cody regional supervisor for the Wyoming Game and Fish
Department."
The two left the area late Sunday. The guide was treated for lacerations
on his head and upper body.
This is the third female grizzly shot this hunting season in the Greater
Yellowstone eco-system. I earlier reported the mauling of a Broadus, MT
teen-ager on Horseshoe Mtn. several miles north of Yellowstone Park in
the Absaroka-Beartooth Wilderness area.
One female bear is dead (shot in Rodent Creek in the Teton Wilderness);
and the fate of the two others, including the Thorofare area bear, is
unknown.
The Thorofare is the most remote part of the Teton Wilderness. In fact
it is the furtherest one can get away from a road in the lower 48 states
(about 20 linear miles).
Ralph Maughan
Still another grizzly incident in the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem --
"Officials trapped and removed three grizzlies last week from an area
along the North Fork of the Shoshone River between Cody [Wyoming and the
east entrance of Yellowstone National Park]." "The bears, two adult
females and one younger male, had roamed through residential areas
seeking food. One had charged two people but did not attack."
"One of the bears was released in the Targhee National Forest in Idaho,
another in the north end of Grand Teton National Park, and the third in
the south end of the Shoshone National Forest [Washakie Wilderness] near
Dubois [Wyoming]."
"Biologists set traps [Sept. 25] for a grizzly that had twice killed
cattle on a ranch about 30 miles from Meeteetse [Wyoming]."
The above quotes are from the "Jackson Hole News."
Earlier this year, I had called the Wapiti Ranger District on the
Shoshone National Forest to tell them that a friend had told me that some
person was feeding grizzly bears near the YNP Park East Entrance because
they liked to see the bears. Wonder if this was the outcome?
NICOLA
> Wyoming Game and Fish and Shoshone National Forest officials are
>
> encountering an adult female grizzly and a year old cub early Sunday
> morning. As the bear chased the guide, the hunter shot the animal, said
> Gary Brown, Cody regional supervisor for the Wyoming Game and Fish
> Department."
>
M.S.Nicola
Bill Cassady
NNTP-Posting-Host: cwis.isu.edu
Xref: miwok rec.backcountry:90095 rec.animals.wildlife:5949 alt.animals.bears
:656
In Message-ID: <44eo31$i...@cwis.isu.edu>
maug...@cwis.isu.edu (Ralph Maughan) writes:
>According to the "Jackson Hole News", "The guide and his client reported
>encountering an adult female grizzly and a year old cub early Sunday
>morning. As the bear chased the guide, the hunter shot the animal, said
>Gary Brown, Cody regional supervisor for the Wyoming Game and Fish
>Department."
>The two left the area late Sunday. The guide was treated for lacerations
>on his head and upper body.
>This is the third female grizzly shot this hunting season in the Greater
>Yellowstone eco-system. ...............................................
........................
>Date: 28 Sep 1995 11:51:57 -0600
>From: maug...@cwis.isu.edu (Ralph Maughan)
RM>In another story of the inevitable Fall grizzly/human encounters, a
>sub-adult grizzly female has been shot dead in Rodent Creek, in the Teton
>Wilderness. (.........)
RM>Dan Larson, a 39-year old hunter from Minnesota killed the grizzly as it
>charged him when he surprised it on the gut pile of a recently killed elk.
RM>Investigators believe Larson shot the bear in a justifiable act of
>self-defense.
.................
RM>Wyoming Game and Fish warden Fred Herbal said, "It [the bear] looked at
>him, dropped on all fours and came directly at him. During this time the
>guy was moving diagonally up the hill to try to get away and [he] fell
>down into a large downfall with branches. The bear continued coming at
>him. He fired one round from his 7mm mag and killed the bear instantly
>at a distance of 10 to 12 feet. He fired from the ground, lying on his
>back."
Nice shot!
Nothing like mortal danger to concentrate the mind.
But what's with these female bears?
Since there has been no comment on my question/hypothesis that the bears
are suffering from "PMS", I'll try a couple of other ones; one for the
materialists; one for the idealists:
1) Testosterone poisoning? These fem bears gobble too many horny marmots
during the summer meadow feeding season and become addicted to the
hormone.
They become hyper-agressive as the poison saturates and overwhelms their
tender, delicate and naturally peaceable feminine molecules.
They crave more, and more, and more.................rampaging to
demonstrate and express their newly acquired, albeit pointless,
*machismo*.
2) The fem bears are all riled up about millenia of patriarchal
domination, wherein THEY are the ones forced to bear (pardon) the young
and feed and care for them until they are self-sufficient; while the
deadbeat papas get to sleep an extra two weeks - sublimely indifferent
to the plight of both the mothers and the cubs. Although they understand
their situation perfectly well, due to patriarchal oppression they find
themselves helpless to devise a remedy.
Thus, in jealous frustration, they strike out at whatever target is handy.
If you can't bear to consider these hypotheses, make up your own.
-Bill
* "An alienate my homework" *
MAUGRALP@.isu.edu
Last I heard, Wyoming Game and Fish was looking for both the cub
and the sow. The Thorofare is big country. It takes a while to
get there.
If I hear anything, I will post it. Postings of information from
others would be welcome too.
griz...@pacificrim.net
> a large cub" while elk hunting by himself.
> "She clawed and bit him for several seconds, then started away, but when
> Schaffer reached for the rifle she turned toward him again. He fired,
> the sow fell and the cub ran away."
>
> Rangers searched for a day but didn't any trace of the sow.
Great...so now there is yet another wounded bear roaming around. These type of
hunters, hikers, photographers, guides, etc sure do make a mess of everything.
It sounds like in this instance the idiot could have just stayed where he was and
wait for her to move on. But people don't listen or think it seems.
Kris
vendter@aimnet
> The Thorofare is the most remote part of the Teton Wilderness. In fact
> it is the furtherest one can get away from a road in the lower 48 states
> (about 20 linear miles).
>
> --
> Pocatello, Idaho
> STANDARD DISCLAIMER
>
are several places that are more than 20 miles from any road.
Vince
murrtrc
Bill Hudgins
<testosterone saturation and patriarchal dominance theories elided>
: If you can't bear to consider these hypotheses, make up your own.
: -Bill
OK, don't mind if I try:
Aggression in whom?
Testosterone in marmots is a possibility
That might make for aggression in the adult fem grizzly,
For there is every likelihood that you are what you eat,
And adolescent marmots are a grizzly's favorite treat.
But if the law of averages does work in such a case,
An equal distribution of both sexes in the place,
Means peaceful female molecules would be 50 percent.
Would not one countervail the next, to make the grizz content?
The patriarchal dominance described in Theory 2
Is somewhat more believable, though if you think it through,
It's likely that exhaustion, caused by interrupted sleep
Provides the motivation for the bear to take a leap
At anything that moves when it comes into grizzly range.
Now this, if you consider it, is hardly passing strange,
For bears can't really hibernate: the den air smells so bad,
And snoring fills the winter lair, from mom, and cubs, and dad.
It may just be that visitors are not what grizzlies like,
And that applies to macho guys who like to take a hike
Amidst the Tetons in the fall when bear is munching marmot,
For any hunter with a gun will very likely harm it.
So Mr. Larson finds a pile of elk guts in the brush.
Now, suddenly confronted by a feeding grizzly's rush,
He does what humans always do when things aren't going well;
He pulls his trusty magnum out, and blows the bear to hell.
Ok, it may be self-defense, but why should we put bears
In situations where it is our instincts against theirs?
Are human lives more valuable than those of any bears?
When will we learn to live and love, and leave them in their lairs?
--
Bill Hudgins
al...@torfree.on.ca
Eugene N. Miya
>> The Thorofare is the most remote part of the Teton Wilderness. In fact
>> it is the furtherest one can get away from a road in the lower 48 states
>> (about 20 linear miles).
In article <NEWTNews.8126404...@pc.iway.aimnet.com>,
<vendter@aimnet> wrote:
>I hate to burst your bubble, but I have flown over a lot of Nevada
>and there are several places that are more than 20 miles from any road.
Pop.
As noted with one more aerial survey post, I am glad that you do not work
for the National Recon Office.
This group once planed an executed a trip into the middle of Nevada.
We can assure you there are roads effectively every where (short of a few
high summits) from the mineral exploration days. Even the military and
the DOE have extensive problems with the road network. Collecting USGS
topos and USFS FS maps will show it, and there are net sites (people
living in homes in remote parts of NV). We could not even get away from
the net.
Now Alaska on the other hand.....
That's why it's called ground truth.
Bill Hudgins
: OK, don't mind if I try:
: Aggression in whom?
Apologies for posting that thing twice: the connection to the freenet
died on me when I tried the first time, so there was no confirmation of the
posting. <cringe> Anyway, the second version, slightly reworded, is a bit
more polished. I'll be quiet now....
Bill.
--
Bill Hudgins
al...@torfree.on.ca
Ray Spinhirne
: > According to an AP story from Billings, MT, he "encountered the bear and
: Kris
I don't know about you but I don't think I would just wait without attempting
to defend myself after being mauled by a bear. Unless you have experienced
this (I have not) I don't think you should be so critical of this individual.
Ray
Brian H. Zygo
>But what's with these female bears?
>Since there has been no comment on my question/hypothesis that the bears
>are suffering from "PMS", I'll try a couple of other ones; one for the
>materialists; one for the idealists:
Didn't find your ideas convincing...
I have a feeling it has to do more with the fact that male grizzlies
will eat grizzly cubs, so the sow has to be able to defend her cubs
quite aggressively.
In other words it is a maternal/survival instinct.
Brian Z.
The world is full of bastards
Rapidly Increasing in Number
The farther one gets
From Missoula, Montana
--Norman Maclean
Junta Nacional de Jardines Infantiles - Pablo Jara
>
>
>> The Thorofare is the most remote part of the Teton Wilderness. In fact
>> it is the furtherest one can get away from a road in the lower 48 states
>> (about 20 linear miles).
>>
>> Ralph Maughan
>> Pocatello, Idaho
>> STANDARD DISCLAIMER
>>
>are several places that are more than 20 miles from any road.
>
Junta Nacional de Jardines Infantiles - Pablo Jara
jhiuhiuhiuhiuh
BankAmerica Leasing Jkmurphy Capital Group
: hunters, hikers, photographers, guides, etc sure do make a mess of everything.
: It sounds like in this instance the idiot could have just stayed where he was and
: wait for her to move on. But people don't listen or think it seems.
: Kris
Speaking of idiots, when was the last time you were mauled by a grizzly
there Kris? Obviously never thus the above post. You also appear to have
little to no knowledge of grizzly behavior. In many documented cases a
grizzly will maul a victim, walk away, and come back to dish out more
even if the victim does not move. If you can imagine a young scared kid
being slapped about like a rag doll by a five hundred pound griz, then it
shouldn't be too tough to understand his reaction.
I agree that a lot of yahoos out in grizzly country ask for it.
Unfortunately, many of the yahoos run our national parks and wilderness
areas and do stupid things to endanger both bears and people (one example
is the location of garbage dumps, etc). We need to redress our policies
and procedures in bear country to lessen these types of incidents.
My sympathies to both parties (bear and human)
Bernard Rupe
> > Ralph Maughan wrote
> >> The Thorofare is the most remote part of the Teton Wilderness. In fact
> >> it is the furtherest one can get away from a road in the lower 48 states
> >> (about 20 linear miles).
>
>>are several places that are more than 20 miles from any road.
>>Vince
>
>of people, or nearly so; however, dirt roads and 4 x 4 tracks are
>abundant because the arid climate makes the natural disappearance a very
I don't have a map in front of me, but I'd be willing to bet there are
places in the Frank Church Wilderness (Idaho) and the Grand Canyon NP
that are more than 20 miles from a road. Wilderness Areas don't allow
roads so that means most of central Idaho does not have a road
(perhaps there are a few roads grand-fathered in) because of the Frank
Church Wilderness is something like 2 million acres.
--
Bernie Rupe | Motorola, Inc. | __/__
ru...@cig.mot.com | Cellular Infrastructure Group | / | | \ I'd rather
+1 708 632 2814 | 1501 W Shure Dr. Room 1256 | \_|_|_/ be rafting!
| Arlington Heights, IL 60004 | \
griz...@pacificrim.net
> : Great...so now there is yet another wounded bear roaming around. These type of
> : hunters, hikers, photographers, guides, etc sure do make a mess of everything.
> : It sounds like in this instance the idiot could have just stayed where he was and
> : wait for her to move on. But people don't listen or think it seems.
>
> : Kris
>
> to defend myself after being mauled by a bear. Unless you have experienced
> this (I have not) I don't think you should be so critical of this individual.
>
> Ray
Actually, I thought it was common knowledge that "playing dead" is the best
act to put on when under attack by a bear. (except maybe the polar bear who
will rip you to pieces anyway) If the bear had turned away as I believe I had read,
then I would say the bear had made it's "point" and was going to let this poor sap
off the hook. I have not been mauled by a bear, but if I run into that situation, I
know that I will do as I have read over and over from the survivors of such an
attack. They all survived by laying still and NOT fighting back and NOT running.
Since I want to live with the least amount of damage and never want a bear killed
on MY account, I will play dead.
Kris
>
>>>>
Bill Cassady
Xref: miwok rec.backcountry:90644 rec.animals.wildlife:6076 alt.animals.bears
:679
>Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 15:38:21 GMT
al...@torfree.net (Bill Hudgins) doth write:
BH>Bill Cassady (bill.c...@infoway.com) wrote:
BH>: RM>Dan Larson, a 39-year old hunter from Minnesota killed the grizzly as i
>: >charged him when he surprised it on the gut pile of a recently killed e
BH>: RM>Investigators believe Larson shot the bear in a justifiable act of
>: >self-defense.
BH> <Marmotic testosterone saturation theory and patriarchal dominance theory
>elided>
BH> Well, maybe so, Bill, but consider:
BH> Aggression in whom?
BH>Testosterone in marmots is a possibility
>That might lead to aggression in the adult fem grizzly,
>For there is every likelihood that you are what you eat,
>And adolescent marmots are a grizzly's favorite treat.
>But if the law of averages does work in such a case,
>An equal distribution of both sexes in the place,
>Means peaceful female molecules would be 50 percent.
>Would not one countervail the next, to make the grizz content?
Your arguments do bear semblance of reason, Sir -
yet we speak of creatures not of wit but fur.
I've heard tales - though cannot from first hand knowledge vouch
that they are true. (My theories are spun upon the couch.)
When grizzlys prowl the summer meadows green and fine,
to look for tasty marmots there on whom to dine,
that he bears do look sharp for what smells ripe and fresh,
and lady marmot's funk brings dreams of tender flesh.
And she bears - if they were humans you would call them sluts -
prefer by far the males - the crunch of tiny nuts.
So toss the law of averages - it's but a wishful dream.
Sex forms the banks and bottom of life's drenching stream.
BH>The patriarchal dominance described in Theory 2
>Is somewhat more believable, though if you think it through,
>It's likely that exhaustion, caused by interrupted sleep
>Provides the motivation for the bear to take a leap
>At anything that moves when it comes into grizzly range.
>Now this, if you consider it, is hardly passing strange,
>For bears can't really hibernate: the den air smells so bad,
>And snoring fills the winter lair, from mom, and cubs, or dad.
BH>It may just be that visitors are not what grizzlies like,
>And that applies to macho guys who like to take a hike
>Amidst the Tetons in the fall when bear is munching marmot,
>For any hunter with a gun will very likely harm it.
>So Mr. Larson finds a pile of elk guts in the brush.
>Now, suddenly confronted by a feeding grizzly's rush,
>He does what humans always do when things aren't going well;
>He pulls his trusty magnum out, and blows the bear to hell.
BH>Ok, it may be self-defense, but why should we put bears
>In situations where we pit our instincts against theirs?
>Where does it say that people have more right to live than bears?
>When will we learn to live, let live, and leave them in their lairs?
Your sentiments have much to say that's truly just.
When threatened, man - or bear - does only what he must.
In this contest there's no doubt about the future -
though short-term, *man* may need the morgue or suture.
But have we answered what was asked - and instead sought
a subterfuge subtly founded on PC thought?
The sexes are the same? Well, perhaps till the time -
to eat. Then fems to the head - to the head of the line!
When the piper is paid or it's time to throw blame
the male takes the hit, though it's an unrighteous shame.
But when we look, for instance, at bears - we may find
traits they display that show us just how we are blind.
Thus be not hasty, equality to proclaim -
unless it's clear that "equal" doesn't mean "the same"
for difference doth make up the world of man and beast
and those who cling to shadows miss the glory feast.
And, dismiss not my theories, nor questions, out of hand
but test yourself the truth - though truth today is damned.
If better world indeed does lie ahead for all -
and not the pit - only open eyes prevent the fall.
We're all in this together - all the wondrous species.
We need to have respect and not be throwing feces.
If mankind's king - his kingdom's merely for a day.
Tomorrow another "man" will take his crown and play.
-Bill
Chris Grant
ru...@wombat.cig.mot.com (Bernard Rupe) writes:
|> In article <44rhqu$1...@cwis.isu.edu>,
|> Ralph Maughan <maug...@cwis.isu.edu> wrote:
|> >In article <NEWTNews.8126404...@pc.iway.aimnet.com>,
|> > <vendter@aimnet> wrote:
|> > > Ralph Maughan wrote
|> > >> The Thorofare is the most remote part of the Teton Wilderness. In fact
|> > >> it is the furtherest one can get away from a road in the lower 48 states
|> > >> (about 20 linear miles).
|> I don't have a map in front of me, but I'd be willing to bet there are
|> places in the Frank Church Wilderness (Idaho) and the Grand Canyon NP
|> that are more than 20 miles from a road. Wilderness Areas don't allow
|> roads so that means most of central Idaho does not have a road
|> (perhaps there are a few roads grand-fathered in) because of the Frank
|> Church Wilderness is something like 2 million acres.
Does the middle of Lake Michigan count? :-)
Chris Grant
gr...@math.byu.edu
griz...@pacificrim.net
> there Kris? Obviously never thus the above post.
You are right I have not been mauled, nor do I believe I will be. IF I am, I will play
dead.
You also appear to have
> little to no knowledge of grizzly behavior.
I am relying on grizzly "experts" which have vast experience with both charges from
grizzlies as well as a few maulings.
In many documented cases a
> grizzly will maul a victim, walk away, and come back to dish out more
> even if the victim does not move. If you can imagine a young scared kid
> being slapped about like a rag doll by a five hundred pound griz, then it
> shouldn't be too tough to understand his reaction.
It may be hard, but the question is do you want to live. I never said the bear
would not stop then resume the attack...the bear may want to be certain the
victim is dead if the bear is very aggitated. But the best response I truly believe
is to remain limp and appear dead. I personally don't think I COULD move under
an attack! I have read many accounts and know that the biting of the head, the
body, etc is tramatic and extremely frightening, but I believe the survivors I have
heard and the experts I have read. And in this instance, I feel he drew the bear
back to him by reaching for his weapon.
> I agree that a lot of yahoos out in grizzly country ask for it.
> Unfortunately, many of the yahoos run our national parks and wilderness
> areas and do stupid things to endanger both bears and people (one example
> is the location of garbage dumps, etc). We need to redress our policies
> and procedures in bear country to lessen these types of incidents.
Quite true and one reason I have more sympathy with the bear.
Kris
JHamm65475
writes:
>Actually, I thought it was common knowledge that "playing dead" is the
best
>act to put on when under attack by a bear. (except maybe the polar bear
who
>will rip you to pieces anyway) If the bear had turned away as I believe I
had
>read,
>then I would say the bear had made it's "point" and was going to let this
>poor sap
>off the hook. I have not been mauled by a bear, but if I run into that
>situation, I
>know that I will do as I have read over and over from the survivors of
such
>an
>attack. They all survived by laying still and NOT fighting back and NOT
>running.
>Since I want to live with the least amount of damage and never want a
bear
>killed
>on MY account, I will play dead.
>
>Kris
Like you I have heard all my life that what you do when attacked by a bear
is to play dead. I always felt that if I was attacked by a bear I'd play
dead even if the bear started chewing on me. One day I walked over an
embankment and found myself less than one yard from a very large brown
bear. All I could see was its huge head right in my face. The next thing
I knew, I was running in the opposite direction several feet from the
embankment and thinking "what am I doing". Luckily for me, the bear took
the same action (I suppose it was as startled as I was). I have found
myself in situations before and since then, where my personal safety was
in serious peril, but until that moment I had never experience a situation
where my body reacted before I was even conscious of the action I was
taking. My point is that until you are faced with a situation like that,
a situation where one's basic instincts are very likely to take over, you
never really know what you are going to do. The best laid plans often go
awry.
I would hope that if I ever encounter a bear again I will act more
rationally but I know better than to sanctimoniously assert that I will.
As a result of my experience I find it very hard to criticize someone else
who, after being attacked and most probably injured, did not do what most
of us, sitting comfortably in from of our computers think he should have
done.
Personally, I think you should reserve your criticisms until after you
have had the experience first hand. If you are able to stay calm and
think through you actions with an 800 pound bear on your back, then I'll
take your comments seriously.
Jim
Ralph Maughan
Bernard Rupe <ru...@wombat.cig.mot.com> wrote:
>In article <44rhqu$1...@cwis.isu.edu>,
>>>>Ralph Maughan <maug...@cwis.isu.edu> wrote:
>> >> The Thorofare is the most remote part of the Teton Wilderness. In fact
>> >> it is the furtherest one can get away from a road in the lower 48 states
>> >> (about 20 linear miles).
[deletions here]
>I don't have a map in front of me, but I'd be willing to bet there are
>places in the Frank Church Wilderness (Idaho) and the Grand Canyon NP
>that are more than 20 miles from a road. Wilderness Areas don't allow
>roads so that means most of central Idaho does not have a road
>(perhaps there are a few roads grand-fathered in) because of the Frank
>Church Wilderness is something like 2 million acres.
There are places in the Frank Church and the Selway/Bitterroot Wilderness
that take longer to reach than the Thorofare country of the Teton
Wilderness. The trails are steeper and a few a bit longer, but as "the
crow flies" the area around Bridger Lake in the Teton Wilderness, just
next to the SE boundary of Yellowstone NP, is most distant point from a
road (excluding perhaps Isle Royle in Lake Superior).
Superficially the Frank looks deeper than the Thorofare country, but there
are quite a few dirt, cherry-stemmed roads that go into the wilderness. A
good example is the Sleeping Deer Mountain road that goes about 20 miles
into the Frank Church Wilderness with the wilderness boundary 50 feet on
both sides of the road. It's quite a scenic road and exciting to drive,
but it cuts a day or more off trips into the heart of the Frank Church.
Ralph Maughan
BankAmerica Leasing Jkmurphy Capital Group <jkmu...@crl.com> wrote:
[all but this deleted]
>My sympathies to both parties (bear and human)
I think we need to suggest that hunters carry pepper spray as well as
their rifle. Pepper spray is likely just as effective (I think more so,
as it's harder to miss with pepper spray). With pepper spray instead of a
wounded or dead griz, you have one that has been adversely conditioned and
will teach her cub (assuming a sow with a cub) to avoid humans.
GeoBear
stand up for someone who had a terrifying experience....if we wait until
each of us who travels in Griz country has encountered and/or been
approached by a Griz to learn and judge behavior...the Grizzlies will
certainly all be dead (because the government usually kills at least one
bear after each encounter). There really is a lot to be learned from
other peoples' experiences, & one of the ways we can learn is to
judge/assess what others have done. Everything I have read & learned
directly from people experienced with Grizzlies is to stay still & quiet,
and that Griz frequently bluff charge. We **must** train ourselves in our
minds to think about what we should do, so that when we are in their
habitat we have a better chance of handling it properly. One time I was
charged by a moose and stood perfectly still....my brain was saying "don't
run" because I had "trained" myself so well for dealing with Griz.
Unfortunately standing still in front of a charging moose will only get
you flattened. Luckily some other part of me took over and said RUN!
Which I did. Turns out, btw, that the moose & calf were in turn running
from a large male Griz....who was asleep on the hillside & missed the
entire event.
> jhamm...@aol.com (JHamm65475)
Kevin Geraghty
>There are places in the Frank Church and the Selway/Bitterroot Wilderness
>that take longer to reach than the Thorofare country of the Teton
>Wilderness. The trails are steeper and a few a bit longer, but as "the
>crow flies" the area around Bridger Lake in the Teton Wilderness, just
>next to the SE boundary of Yellowstone NP, is most distant point from a
>road (excluding perhaps Isle Royle in Lake Superior).
This is a thoroughly dreary statistic, really. Twenty miles ain't
much. I just looked at my Washington atlas and confirmed that the
remotest spots in Washington, say the middle of Glacier Peak
wilderness or of olympic NP are indeed less than twenty miles in a
straight line from the nearest road. It certainly makes one appreciate
the parts of northern ontario and quebec (and presumably Alaska, B.C
etc) where one can be several hundred miles from the nearest road. Of
course there are always bush planes...
Kevin Geraghty
BankAmerica Leasing Jkmurphy Capital Group
: have had the experience first hand. If you are able to stay calm and
: think through you actions with an 800 pound bear on your back, then I'll
: take your comments seriously.
: Jim
Here Here!
Another problem with a charging bear this time of year is the possibility
of predation (i.e. choosing a human as prey). By all accounts I've read,
it is impossible to tell whether a bear is attacking due to feeling
threatened or because the intended victim has a 1/4 pounder with cheese
look to him. If you play dead and the bear is bent on predation, you are
dead meat. This close to winter, some more unsuccessfull bears may just
take a shot at a human (note the Lake Louise incident). Nobody will
argue that avoidance is the best course, however, if it comes to show
time, I will shoot first and ask questions later.
cla...@phepds.span.nasa.gov
>Actually, I thought it was common knowledge that "playing dead" is the best
>act to put on when under attack by a bear. (except maybe the polar bear who
>will rip you to pieces anyway)
This advice comes with the implicit assumption that you are unarmed and
in a position to do nothing else. A hunter with a high-powered rifle has
the means to defend himself, and can hardly be faulted for choosing to
do so, rather than to lie still while being chewed on by a grizzly bear.
"He only makes it worse by fighting back," you say? When it's rifle versus
bear, how often do you think the rifle actually loses? Why do you think
there are so few bears around anymore? If you're in the woods unarmed,
then fine, play dead. But as much as I hate to see a bear destroyed,
especially a sow with cubs, I would say that a man with a rifle who chooses
not to use it to defend himself against a bear attack is a fool. Such a
person probably doesn't exist, anyhow, since someone who would play dead
and take a mauling rather than shoot the bear would probably never bring
a firearm into the woods in the first place.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Clayton
Department of Physics & Astronomy
Louisiana State University
Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Rob Kleine
>
>I don't have a map in front of me, but I'd be willing to bet there are
>places in the Frank Church Wilderness (Idaho) and the Grand Canyon NP
>that are more than 20 miles from a road. Wilderness Areas don't allow
>roads so that means most of central Idaho does not have a road
>(perhaps there are a few roads grand-fathered in) because of the Frank
>Church Wilderness is something like 2 million acres.
>
figure, one is never more than about 5 or so (map) miles from a road of
some sort. Rob
Eugene N. Miya
(Chris Grant) writes:
>Does the middle of Lake Michigan count? :-)
Actually an interesting question. It was thought about in the 60s, in short:
No.
Navigible waterways (basically) are regarded as roads. The Colorado
River for instance isn't regarded as part of Grand Canyon NP. That's
for reasons of river control.
Wayne T. Hally
>>> it is the furtherest one can get away from a road in the lower 48 states
>>> (about 20 linear miles).
>>> Ralph Maughan
>>I hate to burst your bubble, but I have flown over a lot of Nevada and there
>>are several places that are more than 20 miles from any road.
>>Vince
>>
Take
a look
at Maine sometime
50+miles??
Don Baccus
: I hate to burst your bubble, but I have flown over a lot of Nevada and there
: are several places that are more than 20 miles from any road.
: Vince
I work every year in rural Nevada on a raptor banding project. In
my experience, most of the valleys are threaded with jeep tracks.
Perhaps you don't consider these roads, but they are considered roads
for purposes of WSA planning, etc.
There are, I suspect, many many places in Nevada 20 or more miles
from any officially maintained road (gravel or paved) - and elsewhere,
too, like SE Oregon.
But I find it easy to believe that there is no spot in Nevada 20
miles away from a jeep track.
--
- Don Baccus -
JHamm65475
writes:
>stand up for someone who had a terrifying experience....if we wait until
>each of us who travels in Griz country has encountered and/or been
>approached by a Griz to learn and judge behavior...the Grizzlies will
>certainly all be dead (because the government usually kills at least one
>bear after each encounter). There really is a lot to be learned from
>other peoples' experiences, & one of the ways we can learn is to
>judge/assess what others have done
***omit***
>Unfortunately standing still in front of a charging moose will only get
>you flattened. Luckily some other part of me took over and said RUN!
>Which I did. Turns out, btw, that the moose & calf were in turn running
I appreciated your story. I think it illustrates what I was trying to
say.
I don't mean to be condescending but I think you missed my earlier point.
I did not mean to imply that we cannot learn from others' experiences. I
was objecting to the author's (Kris) categorical assertion that s\he would
behave a certain way in the hunter's situation, a situation s\he had never
experienced and that the hunter was an "idiot" for not reacting as s\he is
so certain she would have.
I agree that we learn from other's experiences; to claim otherwise would
be foolish. My point was not that we cannot plan what to do if attacked
by a bear nor was it that all of our plans will come to not in the face of
a bear attack. My point was not even that the hunter acted rightly or
wrongly. My point was and is that: if you assume you will act one way in
an unfamiliar situation (as the original author did) and dismiss the
contrary actions of people who have actually been in that situation, as
simply the result of stupidity or arrogance, you are not learning from
experience, you are ignoring experience.
As far as the hunter goes: those who claim that the hunter brought on the
second attack himself by reaching for the gun are assuming something that
is not at all evident. That is, they assume that the bear would not have
attacked a second time if the hunter hadn't reached for his gun. We don't
know this. All we are told is that the bear attacked "when Schaffer
reached for the rifle". Proximity in time is not causality. It is
possible (and it has happened in other attacks) that the bear would have
attacked even if the hunter had not moved or that the bear had begun the
second attack before the hunter reached for the gun.
People also seem to assume that if the hunter had stayed still he either
would not have been attacked or would have "only" been mauled. If he had
not been attacked then fine, but that's pure speculation. The fact is he
was attacked a second time. The question at that point is what should he
have done in the face of a second attack. Remeber, this person was not
being "bluff charged", the bear had made that quite clear. One has to
make a choice: Do you do nothing and hope that the bear mauling will not
result in severe or fatal injuries (as they often do) or do you fire the
rifle in your hands and hope that it prevents the mauling altogether?
Personally, if I had the choice of "only" being mauled (a second time!) or
shooting an attacking bear with a high powered rifle, I would probably
take my chances with the rifle. I will never have that choice however,
since I don't hunt and never take a rifle with me into the wilderness. In
my case I might respond with pepper spray.
Actually, the word "choice" is inaccurate. In a situation like that you
are probably not making choices, you are probably just reacting. Even
you, a person with a great deal of experience and a person who had
""trained"" himself, had "some other part of me [take] over and [say]
RUN!" when you believed your life was threatened. That's why people who
regularly face life threatening situations train until the "right choice"
is no longer a choice at all but rat
Adam H. Oppenheim
griz...@pacificrim.net writes:
>
>> I would say that a man with a rifle who chooses
>> not to use it to defend himself against a bear attack is a fool. Such a
>> person probably doesn't exist, anyhow, since someone who would play dead
>> and take a mauling rather than shoot the bear would probably never bring
>> a firearm into the woods in the first place.
>
>bear would surely get me killed. . I would be a "fool" by your definition, however, as I would
>NOT shoot a bear under any circumstances. I do believe (with chance of error) that Doug
>Peacock carries a rifle, yet he would not shoot a bear, either. He is one of the most
>interesting of the grizzly "studiers".
>
>GRIZ
>
As ol' Cactus Ed would say; "it aint wilderness unless there's a critter out
there that might kill you and eat you." 'nuff said.
Scot Carpenter
: We're all in this together - all the wondrous species.
: We need to have respect and not be throwing feces.
: If mankind's king - his kingdom's merely for a day.
: Tomorrow another "man" will take his crown and play.
"We be of one blood, ye and I."
Kipling
--
| Scot Carpenter carp...@uh.edu 71234...@compuserve.com |
If one believes Homer, Sisyphus was the wisest and most prudent
of mortals. According to another tradition, however, he was disposed to
practice the profession of the highwayman.
I see no contradiction in this. A.C.
Richard Penny
: This is a thoroughly dreary statistic, really. Twenty miles ain't
: much. I just looked at my Washington atlas and confirmed that the
: remotest spots in Washington, say the middle of Glacier Peak
: wilderness or of olympic NP are indeed less than twenty miles in a
: straight line from the nearest road. It certainly makes one appreciate
: the parts of northern ontario and quebec (and presumably Alaska, B.C
: etc) where one can be several hundred miles from the nearest road. Of
: course there are always bush planes...
No better in California. The most remote spot in Kings Canyon NP, Mount
Woolworth near the Middle Fork of the Kings is about 12 miles from roads
at South Lake, Big Pine, and Cedar Grove. The most remote spot in Sequoia
National Park (Triple Divide Peak) is also about 12 miles from roads at
Giant Forest, Mineral King, and Whitney Portal. Of course, hiking by
trail it would be a good bit further to these spots from any of these
roadheads.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard Penny email: rikp...@cybergate.com
2499 Los Altos Avenue Clovis, CA 93611
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
GeoBear
country... (source: "Grizzly Years" by Doug Peacock, and in person in San
Francisco in Nov 93)
-------------------------------------------------
>From: griz...@pacificrim.net
R Glenn Stauffer
That would be if you are considering only marked roads. Most of the woods
of Maine are riddled with private roads owned by the lumber companies. Most
are easily driveable - only rarely could I find one where my VW Fox couldn't
go and that car is a long way from an off-road vehicle.
There are areas in the far north that are much more difficult to reach, but,
if you look hard enough, you'll find a lumber road that will likely get you
there.
Walt Daniels
on any maps other than the logging companies. Even the "100 mile
wilderness" on the AT is never far from a road.
--
Walt Daniels (IBM)<DAN at WATSON> 914 784-6736
(Internet)<d...@watson.ibm.com>
Bud Kuenzli
Maughan) wrote:
> In article <44u7g3$3...@newdelph.rtsg.mot.com>,
> Bernard Rupe <ru...@wombat.cig.mot.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <44rhqu$1...@cwis.isu.edu>,
> >>>>Ralph Maughan <maug...@cwis.isu.edu> wrote:
> >> >> The Thorofare is the most remote part of the Teton Wilderness. In fact
> >> >> it is the furtherest one can get away from a road in the lower 48
states
> >> >> (about 20 linear miles).
It just makes me smile to hear the term "wilderness" used for something
that is within 20 miles of a road. 'Course, if the term wilderness were
NOT used, then people would have to face the fact that much of the
"wilderness" is just controlled park areas that give the impression of
being wild, when in fact they are very well regulated and controlled. I
used to do a lot of backpacking in California and Colorado and enjoyed
going into the "wilderness". After I moved to Alaska the term "wilderness"
took on a different connotation.....Still, once you are are a few miles
back from "civilization", it all FEELS much the same...
--
Bud Kuenzli, North Pole Alaska
lth...@northstar.k12.ak
WL7CIK
XLTRMK
Paul Repak
rather the time required to get to an area by normally allowed means. This
would take into account the ruggedness of the terrain and/or density of
forest growth. Many wilderness places which are 5 or even 20 miles from the
nearest road are relatively easy hikes - many others are not. So lets say,
how many places cannot be reached without at least an overnight stay
required to get there?
For example, in the strictly controlled "Forever Wild" areas of the
Adirondacks where motorized vehicles, motorboats, seaplanes, helicopters, or
even mountain bicycles are forbidden, the only "legal" modes of travel are
by foot or canoe. It would take an experienced hiker a couple of days to
get into many such areas that I know, where normal travel in stretches may
be slowed to less than 1/4 mph by thick growth or beaver marshes. This is
especially true now, since the catastrophe of the July 15 1995 "microburst",
that flattened thousands of forested wilderness acres and travel is
effectively impossible (I was just there - try 100 yards/hr!).
I'm sure that many areas of badlands and more rugged mountainous regions
would qualify under the time definition of distant wilderness places.
- Paul -
Experience the Wilderness;
Keep it Wild...
david mann
: : There are some interesting eco-feminist critiques along this
: : line. Consider the prostitute and the virgin bride.
Scot Carpenter (rc...@menudo.uh.edu) wrote:
: Hmmmm, so what is the 'wise use' view of the feminine gender?
Both. The prostitute. The virgin bride. The land-fill. The so-called
Wilderness. They are all possessions. All measured in terms of utility.
Madonna (the singer) is no fool. Mix the 2 images. Sell millions and
millions.
Dave Mann
Shawn Burke
could get from a McDonalds in the White Mountains National Forest (NH)
was 13 miles. I haven't taken out my DeLorme NH atlas to check (Let's
see, one in Lincoln, one in N. Conway, one in Littleton, one in Gorham,
...), but it seems plausible -- at least for the NH portion -- and
depressing.
-- seb
______________________________________________________________________
bu...@bu.edu
WWW: http://eng.bu.edu/Photonics_Center/
GPS: 42 deg 20', 71 deg 5 min
__O There is nothing, absolutely nothing
\______\_|______/ Half so much worth doing
^^^^^^^^^^^^o^^^^^^^^^^^ As simply messing about in boats