Condensation in winter tents?
Bruce W.1
I have only one tent that might be considered a winter tent. It is a
single wall Goretex tent with no fly and limited ventilation. It forms
a lot of condensation in low temperatures, which also freezes when below
zero outside.
Since I'm now contemplating a winter trip in the snow, I'm left
wondering about condensation problems in most 4-season tents. Their
designs would lead me to believe that they all have condensation
problems. With limited ventilation, how could they not? Is this true
or am I missing something?
If this is true then I should probably use a bivysack instead of a tent.
So does your 4-season tent have condensation problems in temperatures
near and below freezing?
Thanks for your help.
Peter
> Just want to hear your experiences with four-season tents.
>
> I have only one tent that might be considered a winter tent. It is a
> single wall Goretex tent with no fly and limited ventilation. It forms
> a lot of condensation in low temperatures, which also freezes when below
> zero outside.
I'm not surprised. I've always had lots of condensation problems in
single-wall tents. The outer layer of the tent will lose heat through
radiation to the sky and frequently get below ambient air temperature.
This will cause dew formation (condensation) on both the outside and inside
surfaces (even more inside due to the water content of the air from the
occupants).
>
> Since I'm now contemplating a winter trip in the snow, I'm left
> wondering about condensation problems in most 4-season tents. Their
> designs would lead me to believe that they all have condensation
> problems. With limited ventilation, how could they not? Is this true
> or am I missing something?
I've had little trouble with condensation in mild winter conditions in
double-wall tents. The inner wall stays warmer since it isn't radiating
directly to the sky so it isn't nearly as prone to condensing the water
vapor. The vapor can therefore pass through the inner wall and condense on
the colder surface on the underside of the fly. This should be designed to
let the water run down inside the fly without falling down on the inner tent.
I use a vapor-barrier liner in my sleeping bag when it's below freezing so
that reduces the amount of water vapor inside the tent (and also makes me
less thirsty in the morning).
bbense+rec.backc...@telemark.slac.stanford.edu
In article <3F2BC3B9...@NoDirectEmail.com>,
Bruce W.1 <b...@NoDirectEmail.com> wrote:
>Just want to hear your experiences with four-season tents.
>
>I have only one tent that might be considered a winter tent. It is a
>single wall Goretex tent with no fly and limited ventilation. It forms
>a lot of condensation in low temperatures, which also freezes when below
>zero outside.
>
>Since I'm now contemplating a winter trip in the snow, I'm left
>wondering about condensation problems in most 4-season tents. Their
>designs would lead me to believe that they all have condensation
>problems. With limited ventilation, how could they not? Is this true
>or am I missing something?
_ No you aren't missing anything.
>
>If this is true then I should probably use a bivysack instead of a tent.
_ I would think twice before taking a winter trip with just a
bivy, particularly if you expect to deal with bad weather.
Due to the shorter days, you spend more time in the tent.
Plus condensation can be a problem with bivies as well.
>
>So does your 4-season tent have condensation problems in temperatures
>near and below freezing?
>
_ Any tent I've ever owned has this problem. Double wall tents
deal with it better in general, but I think it's more a matter of
design than construction. A well designed single wall tent will
work reasonably well in these conditions, often much better than
a poorly designed double wall tent.
_ Booker C. Bense
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Arild Bergstrøm
through your tent.
With a good sleepingbag that should not be any problem.
Arild Bergstrøm
Norway
"Bruce W.1" <b...@NoDirectEmail.com> skrev i melding
news:3F2BC3B9...@NoDirectEmail.com...
David Snell
unzipping a half-moon shaped opening at the top of each door in my tent.
This allows dry, cold air to move through the tent and condensation to
escape. The downside, of course, is that you might have wind, and possibly
snow, blowing through your tent. Keeping the no-see-um netting part of the
door zipped will help some in preventing the latter from happening. The
wind problem can be reduced by orienting your tent in such a way that cross
breezes are minimized.
I've never found that unzipping the door flaps makes the night any colder
because most tents apparently offer ZERO insulation from the outside cold
(theory tested and confirmed by taking a reading with my little zipper
thermometer inside the tent and then outside).
"Bruce W.1" <b...@NoDirectEmail.com> wrote in message
news:3F2BC3B9...@NoDirectEmail.com...
Robertwgross
the cold and then seal it up tight with people inside, I can expect to get
condensation that freezes. That is why I strive to get at least minimal airflow
with vents.
It gets worse when you go up to high elevation. For one thing, the air can't
carry as much moisture, and the people are generally more tired and less
willing to ventilate the tent.
Of course, if a tent won't work for you, there is always an igloo. Cue: Ed.
---Bob Gross---
SPeacock
turns out it is not as much as others have said and about the same (or less)
for all similar singled walled tents and there is condensation that will
freeze if it is cold enough. Usually no big deal as the condensation is
normally at either end away from (generally) the sleeping area.
Jack Stephensons has a well documented process. You sleep nude, with all
clothes outside, tent fully locked up and airless except for a vent in the
top and an entrance for fresh (dry) air at the bottom opposite end. Some
times that works.
During the winter I have always used a candle near the vent area in hopes
that the extra heat would help the ventilation along.
If your sleeping bag is very efficient, you won't have much of a heat source
to drive the 'chimney' affect. Only the water of respiration which then
sticks to the tent walls (of the single thickness part).
Take along a sponge if its not freezing to wipe up the early morning shower.
If its frozen, take along a windshield scraper...carefull now....
Pete Hickey
<bbense+rec.backc...@telemark.slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>Plus condensation can be a problem with bivies as well.
Not if you use a VBL in your bag.
--
--
LITTLE KNOWN FACT: Did you know that 86% of North Americans cannot
taste the difference between fried dog and fried cat?
Peter B.
(Pete Hickey) wrote:
>In article <bggm9p$d94$3...@news.Stanford.EDU>,
> <bbense+rec.backc...@telemark.slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
>>Plus condensation can be a problem with bivies as well.
>
>
>Not if you use a VBL in your bag.
Most of the condensation in a tent comes from respiration, not
perspiration.
Ventilation can help, but if the ambient humidity is high, all you
will be doing is venting moisture laden air into your tent. Raising
the temperature of the air inside the tent with candle lanterns or
even a catalytic heater will help too.
In many cases all you can do is to try to remove the condensation
from the inside of the tent before it becomes an issue.
Pete
Gary S.
wrote:
> Most of the condensation in a tent comes from respiration, not
>perspiration.
>
> Ventilation can help, but if the ambient humidity is high, all you
>will be doing is venting moisture laden air into your tent. Raising
>the temperature of the air inside the tent with candle lanterns or
>even a catalytic heater will help too.
>
> In many cases all you can do is to try to remove the condensation
>from the inside of the tent before it becomes an issue.
>
Each adult puts out about 1 pint of moisture each night as
respiration, and 1 pint in "insensible" perspiration.
The key in any tent design is to vent that moisture before it
condenses.
In serious winter conditions, the humidity is rarely high, so the
venting will help a great deal.
Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence
Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom
Sid
> condenses.
> In serious winter conditions, the humidity is rarely high, so the
> venting will help a great deal.
There was a prior thread on using a candle lantern for moving
moisture/venting in tents where they were satisfied with the results.
Search google groups
Sid
Clyde
> Each adult puts out about 1 pint of moisture each night as
> respiration, and 1 pint in "insensible" perspiration.
BS on the insensible, you've spent too much time looking at the pictures
in the Stephenson catalog. And respiration is a moot point in a bivy
bag.
Ed Huesers
Clyde wrote:
> And respiration is a moot point in a bivy bag.
Well, not if you go into the bivy head first...
Ed Huesers
Shameless plug: http://www.grandshelters.com
Gary S.
Medical literature mentions it quite frequently, as well as outdoors
literature. Various sources give it as 500 ml per 24 hour day, or
about a pint. I may have overstated it as 1 pint per night. It is
supposed to increase in dry conditions, but I would expect this varies
greatly from person to person, and acclimatization to dry conditions
could include this.
Please Google it before calling it BS.
It is relevant in both tent and bivy bag.
The assumption is that a skilled winter camper will not be having
sensible perspiration because they are balancing insulation against
heat output against the temperature.
Respiration _should_ be moot in a bivy bag, but many people do pull
their heads inside and exhale there.
My point was that each person inside a shelter contributes a certain
amount of moisture each night. If it is not vented outside the tent in
some way, it will condense on the inside of the tent, freezing into
frost if cold enough.
Gore-Tex and other WP/B fabrics depend in part on a temperature
differential between the two sides of the fabric, and there is little
differential with a single wall tent.
Clyde
> Medical literature mentions it quite frequently, as well as outdoors
> literature. Various sources give it as 500 ml per 24 hour day, or
> about a pint. I may have overstated it as 1 pint per night. It is
> supposed to increase in dry conditions, but I would expect this varies
> greatly from person to person, and acclimatization to dry conditions
> could include this.
Big difference between a pint and two-thirds of a cup (167 ml) in an 8
hour period. Pumping action from movement gets rid of about half that so
it's about one-third of a cup that gets into insulation; significant but
manageable.
> Please Google it before calling it BS.
Don't need to...you corrected yourself just fine, with some prodding.
Bruce W.1
========================================
Not sure why, but I had the impression that serious winter tents were of
single wall design, e.g. this one:
http://www.biblertents.com/2002/itent_eldo.html
Guess I need to do more research.
A double wall tent, with netting under the rainfly, would solve the
problem.
So what's the difference between most 3 and 4 season tents? Structural
strength to handle snow loads?
Robertwgross
>...A double wall tent, with netting under the rainfly, would solve the
>problem.
A real double wall tent has more than netting under the rainfly. Netting only
under the rainfly would be found in a 1-, 2-, or 3-season tent.
>So what's the difference between most 3 and 4 season tents? Structural
>strength to handle snow loads?
A real 4-season tent typically handles more snow load and more wind load. It
probably has better waterproofness in the fly. Many will have snow flaps, which
are low along the ground line. They are typically heavier and typically cost
more money.
---Bob Gross---
Metal Man
-
My 1st tent was a J.C. Penney single wall polyurethane coated affair
that didn't let the rain in, BUT it didn't let human body vapor out!
-
My 2nd tent (still have it) is a Sierra Designs' Glacier mountaineering
tent (1970's "A" frame) designed for high winds and winter expedition
type journeyies, a double wall tent, with dual stove snorkels, one at
each end for carbon monoxide ventilation, and a 3 foot long tunnel
entranceway. I never had condensation problems in this tent. BUT for
really humid/condensation situations a removable snap in cotton FROST
LINER was included (actually I bought it as an accessory). In theory,
condensation catches on the outer surface of the frost liner and
freezes. In the A.M. you take it out to line dry outside in the sun or
if worse case scenario you are several days confined within during
raging high altitude storms, the frost liner absorbs the water vapor,
but doesn't drip back on you to soak your down bag! Wonder if the newer
"improved" tents still utilize this "technology" of a frost liner?
-
My 3rd tent and it is really lightweight is the old Early Winters' Light
Dimension, all Gore-Tex tent and of course condensation problems if at
close to sea level and it is humid, unless you can mimic ideal Gore-Tex
mechanics which is a high pressure of water vapor on the inside to get
the water vapor thru the inner skin of the Gore-Tex membrane to the
outside air. I don't thnk the idea of Gore-Tex tents was too well
thought out. Maybe at high altitude the mechanics find a better
solution to the problem. Kurt Shuttenberg, the Alaskan, Mt.Logan
Expedition (Polarguard funded) mountaineer got me hooked on this Early
Winters' tent as to its light weight and fast setup. If condensation,
before it freezes, use a sponge, soak the condensation up, squeeze it
out in your cooking pot, repeat as needed and water for tea in the
morning! Yum, Yum!!
-
Even if going solo, get a two man tent so you don't go stir crazy in a
bivvy sack, and don't forget a good thick book. Wife and I played cards
all night via a candle lantern! -
Do they still make zippered floor cook holes? Actually they call it
that, but that is your bathroom access "poop hole" if bad weather
settles in and you can't get out!!!! {;^)
-
I/we (wife) used to do winter camping, but anything below zero F. ain't
too much fun. Be very careful. Know your warm weather camping skills
well. Practice your first attempts in winter close to a warm shelter in
case you screw up. A very fine line exists in wintertime between having
a jolly good time and surviving for your life!! And wear wool!
-
Kurt in NY State
{:{
=======
re:
Condensation in winter tents?
Group: rec.backcountry Date: Sat, Aug 2, 2003, 9:59am From:
b...@NoDirectEmail.com (Bruce W.1)
MB
> Big difference between a pint and two-thirds of a cup (167 ml) in an 8
> hour period. Pumping action from movement gets rid of about half that so
> it's about one-third of a cup that gets into insulation; significant but
> manageable.
Manageable, yes, but that's assuming rather easy conditions. If
you can't dry the bag, the effect will be cumulative. For
example, the (say) 1.4kg of high-loft down that a good winter
bag has will be in pretty miserable shape after two weeks, when
the 80ml or so a night has added up to over 1kg of ice inside the
bag.
I'd say that a VBL is very good to have in typical mid-winter
backpacking (polar night), unless using huts.
Martin Thornquist
> Not sure why, but I had the impression that serious winter tents were of
> single wall design, e.g. this one:
> http://www.biblertents.com/2002/itent_eldo.html
> Guess I need to do more research.
Single wall tents are very uncommon this side of the Atlantic, and we
do have some serious winter weather. The predominant tent makes here
(Helsport and Hilleberg) are of the type with the poles in the outer
tent (which is usually more than what I consider a rain fly), with the
inner hanging inside. This makes it possible to use a less strong,
possibly more breathable fabric for the inner. My only experience with
other tent designs is a few nights (summer -- although it snowed) in a
Terra Nova Quasar so I cannot compare performance, but I can say that
Helsport inner tents seem to breathe very well, with no condensation
sticking to the inner, only the outer.
In cold conditions (below -10°C or so) I think condensation freezing
on the outer is pretty much unavoidable if there's little wind. When
the temp is near -30 you really don't want to open more vents than
stricktly neccessary, even if that means a little more ice inside the
tent wall.
The only condensation-free tents I've slept in are cotton canvas
military tents with two Optimus 111 on full throttle through the
night, but that is a rather heavy combination, to say the least. I'd
rather deal with some condensation.
Martin
--
"An ideal world is left as an exercise to the reader."
-Paul Graham, On Lisp
MB
> Respiration _should_ be moot in a bivy bag, but many people do pull
> their heads inside and exhale there.
But, what should you do if the weather gets bad, if not button
up? (Assuming that you have, eg, a bivybag with a hoop and vent
at lest in the other end).
Get a schnorkel :). Actually, once upon a time I was somewhat
seriously thinking about experimenting with an exhalation
schnorkel for winter camping. Using the exhalation valve of
an old gas mask 'backwards', the exhaled air would go out through
a pipe, whereas the inhaled air would come from inside the
tent.
If not having a schnorkel <g>, a wool balaclava or such helps a
bit in trapping the moisture of the exhaled air, and also warms
and moistens the inhaled air.
> In serious winter conditions, the humidity is rarely high, so the
> venting will help a great deal.
The absolute humidity is low, but the relative humidity of cold
air is typically high. Venting the exhaled warm and moist air
out of the tent isn't easy, as the moisture will condense
immediately when coming into contact with any cold
surface. A double-walled tent is somewhat better here, as
the inner wall is warmer than in a single walled tent.
Nevertheless, in cold weather, it may be snowing inside the
tent in the morning :). Frostliners have been sometimes
used for trapping the condensed moisture. These were removed,
and beaten outside of the tent in the morning to remove the
ice.
Ed Huesers
Robertwgross wrote:
> Of course, if a tent won't work for you, there is always an igloo. Cue: Ed.
Oh, I doubt Bruce wants to hear it.
Ed Huesers
http://www.grandshelters.com
Clyde
> Manageable, yes, but that's assuming rather easy conditions. If
> you can't dry the bag, the effect will be cumulative. For
> example, the (say) 1.4kg of high-loft down that a good winter
> bag has will be in pretty miserable shape after two weeks, when
> the 80ml or so a night has added up to over 1kg of ice inside the
> bag.
Arctic conditions are much different from mountaineering. VBL makes more
sense for the former than the latter. On a long climbing trip there are
almost always opportunities to dry gear, not so in the polar winters.
bbense+rec.backc...@telemark.slac.stanford.edu
In article <3F2D6F92...@NoDirectEmail.com>,
Bruce W.1 <b...@NoDirectEmail.com> wrote:
>Not sure why, but I had the impression that serious winter tents were of
>single wall design, e.g. this one:
>http://www.biblertents.com/2002/itent_eldo.html
>Guess I need to do more research.
>
>A double wall tent, with netting under the rainfly, would solve the
>problem.
>
>So what's the difference between most 3 and 4 season tents? Structural
>strength to handle snow loads?
_ About $100 and one or two pounds. Any reasonably study tent can
be used in the winter provided you check the forecast before you
leave. Winter tents aren't warmer, they're just built sturdier to
stand up to high winds (in theory). One of the great advantages
of winter camping is that you've got much more choice about where
to camp and you've got a pretty good construction material
handy.
_ While if you do a lot of winter camping, you might invest in
a 4 season tent, it's not a requirement to get started. A warm
sleeping bag is, but a 4 season tent is not. Anybody that tells
you otherwise just wants to buy the tent from you cheap after you
realize that winter camping is not for you.
_ Booker C. Bense
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Andrew Bading
MB wrote:
> Gary S. >
>
> Get a schnorkel :). Actually, once upon a time I was somewhat
> seriously thinking about experimenting with an exhalation
> schnorkel for winter camping. Using the exhalation valve of
> an old gas mask 'backwards', the exhaled air would go out through
> a pipe, whereas the inhaled air would come from inside the
> tent.
>
I, too, have imagined a snorkel for extreme cold sleeping. My
imagininary version had a long tube that ran the length of the sleeping
bag, warming the air before it is taken into the lungs. The exhalation
side vented outside the tent.
* sleeping with a gas mask would be uncomfortable.
* the exhale side would likely freeze up.
* the whole thing would be excess weight.
These are a few of the reasons I never built my "sleeping snorkel".
Gary, it appears great minds think alike.
Andrew Bading
Andrew Bading wrote:
>
> I, too, have imagined a snorkel for extreme cold sleeping. My
> imagininary version had a long tube that ran the length of the sleeping
> bag, warming the air before it is taken into the lungs. The exhalation
> side vented outside the tent.
> * sleeping with a gas mask would be uncomfortable.
> * the exhale side would likely freeze up.
> * the whole thing would be excess weight.
> These are a few of the reasons I never built my "sleeping snorkel".
> Gary, it appears great minds think alike.
>
Oops, I appear to have wrongly attributed the snorkel idea to Gary.
Pete Hickey
Ed Huesers <e...@grandshelters.com> wrote:
>
>
>Robertwgross wrote:
>> Of course, if a tent won't work for you, there is always an igloo. Cue: Ed.
>
> Oh, I doubt Bruce wants to hear it.
Bruce is a lightweight guy. Know how HEAVY an igloo is?
But I hear someone makes a contraption for building an igloo
in place, so you don't have to haul it in with you.
> http://www.grandshelters.com
Gary S.
wrote:
I have a few odd ideas in my time, but I don't need credit for every
one there is.
People have used things like this kniited like a scarf to breathe
through while sleeping, but the frost is a major problem.
Clyde
> But I hear someone makes a contraption for building an igloo
> in place, so you don't have to haul it in with you.
Yeah, there's even a book on planning expeditions that endorses it.
Ed Huesers
"Gary S." wrote:
> People have used things like this kniited like a scarf to breathe
> through while sleeping, but the frost is a major problem.
And along came John, long walkin, smooth talkin John:
http://www.polarwrap.com
Clyde
> Oops, I appear to have wrongly attributed the snorkel idea to Gary.
Old idea. Dana/formerly-Garuda sold a bivy sack with a built-in chimney
a couple years ago.
Eugene Miya
Andrew Bading <apba...@fuse.net> wrote:
>MB wrote:
>> Get a schnorkel :).
The old submarine thread.
>* sleeping with a gas mask would be uncomfortable.
Done it.
>* the exhale side would likely freeze up.
Not always. Only when the temperature gradient is below freezing
at the point of the mask.
>* the whole thing would be excess weight.
>These are a few of the reasons I never built my "sleeping snorkel".
>Gary, it appears great minds think alike.
Great? It would be great if it worked out.
And it has. Aviation and medicine did it.
Eugene Miya
Gary S. <Idontwantspam@net> wrote:
>People have used things like this knitted like a scarf to breathe
>through while sleeping, but the frost is a major problem.
Larry Penberthy who founded MSR made a jacket which had a face mask.
Skiers have face masks for skiing which have nothing to do with knit caps.
Gary S.
I was thinking of a knitted tube shape, not exactly a face mask. They
didn't work well, so were worth little thought.
Eugene Miya
Gary S. <Idontwantspam@net> wrote:
>>>knitted scarf to breathe
>>
>>Larry Penberthy who founded MSR made a jacket which had a face mask.
>>Skiers have face masks for skiing which have nothing to do with knit caps.
>
>I was thinking of a knitted tube shape, not exactly a face mask. They
>didn't work well, so were worth little thought.
Nor did what MSR develop.
Statistically, I would not expect climbing nor backpacking for the
greatest examples of innovation (exceptions abound) as the conservatism
and small numbers work against it. Skiing, snowmobiling, or flying are
more likely to see the innovation first as they tend to be less inhibited.
That was the case with googles for instance.
Gary S.
>Statistically, I would not expect climbing nor backpacking for the
>greatest examples of innovation (exceptions abound) as the conservatism
>and small numbers work against it. Skiing, snowmobiling, or flying are
>more likely to see the innovation first as they tend to be less inhibited.
>That was the case with googles for instance.
Maybe backpacking, certainly hiking.
Possibly rock climbing, but not ice.
People doing activities like Alpine skiing vastly outnumber
mountaineers and backcountry skiers.
For most companies, it makes sense to go where the market numbers are.
Companies that go for the specialty markets are more likely to be true
believers than MBAs.
Ed Huesers
"Gary S." wrote:
> For most companies, it makes sense to go where the market numbers are.
> Companies that go for the specialty markets are more likely to be true
> believers than MBAs.
That's the way I believe even if I am a bit biased.
Ed Huesers
http://www.grandshelters.com
Ed Huesers
> > Respiration _should_ be moot in a bivy bag, but many people do pull
> > their heads inside and exhale there.
MB wrote:
> Get a schnorkel :).
> The absolute humidity is low, but the relative humidity of cold
> air is typically high. Venting the exhaled warm and moist air
> out of the tent isn't easy, as the moisture will condense
> immediately when coming into contact with any cold
> surface. A double-walled tent is somewhat better here, as
> the inner wall is warmer than in a single walled tent.
Well, how about it Markus, you seem to be the perfect guy to test
this out for us: http://www.polarwrap.com
Ed Huesers
http://www.grandshelters.com
Eugene Miya
In article <vjlviv8ncpi4hrrn6...@4ax.com>,
Gary S. <Idontwantspam@net> wrote:
>Maybe backpacking, certainly hiking.
No question.
>Possibly rock climbing, but not ice.
Naw ice climbing is highly limited by ice melting.
There have not be subtantial improvements in quite a while.
>People doing activities like Alpine skiing vastly outnumber
>mountaineers and backcountry skiers.
That is the main reason (strenth in numbers, economies of scale),
however, they are also less inhibited.
>For most companies, it makes sense to go where the market numbers are.
>Companies that go for the specialty markets are more likely to be true
>believers than MBAs.
Well part of this is the scale up of start ups.
Do you want to make money?
Or you want to make stuff?
Ed Huesers
> > But I hear someone makes a contraption for building an igloo
> > in place, so you don't have to haul it in with you.
Clyde wrote:
> Yeah, there's even a book on planning expeditions that endorses it.
Had another one taken on Denali but upon leaving base camp they
realized they had to much weight and it took the cut. Cache was not
retrieved when leaving, part of the glacier now.
SPeacock
Eugene Miya wrote:
The idea of breathing thru a wool wrap or (in my case) a sock, was to
conserve heat. Exhaled air warmed (with some success) the immediate
area around your mouth/nose. After awhile one had to unwrap and try to
dislodge some ice/frost and continue on. It is not an exercise that is
conducive to much sleep.
As I remember there was a similar device for deep cold survival. I
think it was more tubular - but I'd guess it would ice up after a bit
too.
Eugene Miya
SPeacock <SPeacock*at*@pacbell.net> wrote:
>The idea of breathing thru a wool wrap or (in my case) a sock, was to
>conserve heat. Exhaled air warmed (with some success) the immediate
>area around your mouth/nose. After awhile one had to unwrap and try to
>dislodge some ice/frost and continue on. It is not an exercise that is
>conducive to much sleep.
>
>As I remember there was a similar device for deep cold survival. I
>think it was more tubular - but I'd guess it would ice up after a bit
>too.
You can use a scarf or sock, but I will repeat that skiers for instance
have more comfortable face masks, lighter, allowances for nose and chin,
etc. There are tubular neck guards, used those as well. In either
case, you will have to occasionally shake off the accumulated frost or
icicles. Been there, done that. The issue/tradeoff is cost.
Sleep is sleep. Like you can get eye shades for summertimer polar sleep,
one learns to live an O2 mask, with muffs/scarfs/masks. This is a
decades old problem.
Saving heat by reusing it as part of a sleep bag system, is still an
open topic. I suspect that a system involving synthetic bags will
happen before down bags.
Eugene Miya
Ed Huesers <e...@grandshelters.com> wrote:
>realized they had to much weight and it took the cut. Cache was not
>retrieved when leaving, part of the glacier now.
It became more Kahiltna trash?
Ed Huesers
> >realized they had to much weight and it took the cut. Cache was not
> >retrieved when leaving, part of the glacier now.
Eugene Miya wrote:
> It became more Kahiltna trash?
Trash!? Them's artifacts... history.
Ed Huesers
Very shameless plug: http://www.grandshelters.com
Eugene Miya
Ed Huesers <e...@grandshelters.com> wrote:
>> >realized they had too much weight and it took the cut. Cache was not
>> >retrieved when leaving, part of the glacier now.
>
>Eugene Miya wrote:
>> It became more Kahiltna trash?
>
> Trash!? Them's artifacts... history.
How long they been sitting there?
10? 20 years?
Where's Indiana Jones with the RPG?
Ed Huesers
Eugene Miya wrote:
> Saving heat by reusing it as part of a sleep bag system, is still an
> open topic. I suspect that a system involving synthetic bags will
> happen before down bags.
Well, the Polar Wrap thing might be the closest I've seen. They have
metal that absorbs the heat when you breath out through it. It also
collects moisture because it is cool from the last inhale where the air
was preheated from the previous exhale.
Breathing inside a bag would mean that one could have a thinner bag
which would make it easier for the moisture to pass through the bag.
Dunno.
So, this product wasn't around when you were in Moahai's cold land?
Eugene Miya
Ed Huesers <e...@grandshelters.com> wrote:
>Eugene Miya wrote:
>> Saving heat by reusing it as part of a sleep bag system, is still an
>> open topic. I suspect that a system involving synthetic bags will
>> happen before down bags.
>
> Well, the Polar Wrap thing might be the closest I've seen. They have
>metal that absorbs the heat when you breath out through it. It also
>collects moisture because it is cool from the last inhale where the air
>was preheated from the previous exhale.
I would suspect that some sort of heat pipething rather than a metal
thing which usually has a lower specific heat. You would use something
like CaCl2 to remove the moisture on at least the short term.
But I can foresee problems with that as getting rid of the water
which could not be frozen. Light alcohol/antifreeze or glycol might
make a prototype heat exchanger, just not a major market.
> Breathing inside a bag would mean that one could have a thinner bag
>which would make it easier for the moisture to pass through the bag.
>Dunno.
I would not want to compromise for a thinner bag.
> So, this product wasn't around when you were in Maohai's cold land?
Neck scarves were. And I went down before Maohai.
Synthetic bags are used in field work for a number of reasons.
Ed Huesers
> >> Saving heat by reusing it as part of a sleep bag system, is still an
> >> open topic.
> Ed Huesers wrote:
> >Well, the Polar Wrap thing might be the closest I've seen. They have
> >metal that absorbs the heat when you breath out through it. It also
> >collects moisture because it is cool from the last inhale where the air
> >was preheated from the previous exhale.
Eugene Miya wrote:
> I would suspect that some sort of heat pipething rather than a metal
> thing which usually has a lower specific heat.
This has metal with high thermal conductivity with lots of surface
area to absorb the heat. Once you stop breathing or by the time you are
done exhaling the outer most part of the metal is warmed up above
freezing. Then when inhaling the moisture is brought back into your
lungs. Less dehydration.
> You would use something like CaCl2 to remove the moisture on at least
> the short term.
Desiccant dryers. They can be dried but yes, on the short term.
> But I can foresee problems with that as getting rid of the water
> which could not be frozen.
The metal doesn't freeze, heat sink. The remaining moisture would
significantly reduce the dew point.
> Light alcohol/antifreeze or glycol might make a prototype heat
> exchanger, just not a major market.
Well, we've talked of many uses for Everclear. Bad thermoconductivity
though.
> > Breathing inside a bag would mean that one could have a thinner bag
> >which would make it easier for the moisture to pass through the bag.
> I would not want to compromise for a thinner bag.
You've bivied.
> > So, this product wasn't around when you were in Maohai's cold land?
> Neck scarves were. And I went down before Maohai.
Hmmm, how did they dry things out? Ack Maohai. Your land...
> Synthetic bags are used in field work for a number of reasons.
If only igloos were easier to build.
Bruce W.1
>
>
> Oh, I doubt Bruce wants to hear it.
>
> http://www.grandshelters.com
===============================================
Thanks. I'd consider it if the snow was suitable, but it's not.
Ed Huesers
> >Eugene Miya wrote:
> >> It became more Kahiltna trash?
> Ed Huesers wrote:
> > Trash!? Them's artifacts... history.
Eugene Miya wrote:
> How long they been sitting there?
> 10? 20 years?
Try two months.
The fella said he was rather embarassed about it. Didn't ask how, he
didn't voluntier. He did say he told the rangers where it was... I think
it would have been a one day round trip to get it from the airstrip.
> Where's Indiana Jones with the RPG?
Ford, quiet the brune.
Eugene Miya
Ed Huesers <e...@grandshelters.com> wrote:
>> >> > Cache was not retrieved when leaving, part of the glacier now.
>> 10? 20 years?
>
> Try two months.
Not artifact yet.
> The fella said he was rather embarassed about it. Didn't ask how, he
>didn't voluntier. He did say he told the rangers where it was... I think
>it would have been a one day round trip to get it from the airstrip.
Fly in an' git it.
>> Where's Indiana Jones with the RPG?
> Ford, quiet the brune.
"Deal! with them Hemmingway."
--James Joyce
Eugene Miya
Ed Huesers <e...@grandshelters.com> wrote:
>> >> Saving heat by reusing it as part of a sleep bag system, is still an
>> >> open topic.
>
>> I would suspect that some sort of heat pipething rather than a metal
>> thing which usually has a lower specific heat.
>
> This has metal with high thermal conductivity with lots of surface
>area to absorb the heat. Once you stop breathing or by the time you are
>done exhaling the outer most part of the metal is warmed up above
>freezing. Then when inhaling the moisture is brought back into your
>lungs. Less dehydration.
This isn't a Dune Still suit, you lose the water. Water is energy.
The problem is that you are not merely conducting heat. There is an
issue of transport, and then 2 issues of transfer
>> You would use something like CaCl2 to remove the moisture on at least
>> the short term.
> Desiccant dryers. They can be dried but yes, on the short term.
You understand the idea.
>> But I can foresee problems with that as getting rid of the water
>> which could not be frozen.
>
> The metal doesn't freeze, heat sink. The remaining moisture would
>significantly reduce the dew point.
Metals aren't great heat sinks, They do okay because of conduction.
>> Light alcohol/antifreeze or glycol might make a prototype heat
>> exchanger, just not a major market.
>
> Well, we've talked of many uses for Everclear. Bad thermoconductivity
>though.
I would tend to doubt alcohol, but it would have to be checked.
>> > Breathing inside a bag would mean that one could have a thinner bag
>> >which would make it easier for the moisture to pass through the bag.
>> I would not want to compromise for a thinner bag.
>
> You've bivied.
Lots.
In summer you don't need a lot. In many cases you can do it with what
you have in your pockets.
In winter, you have a thinner margin of security.
>> > So, this product wasn't around when you were in Maohai's cold land?
>> Neck scarves were. And I went down before Maohai.
>
> Hmmm, how did they dry things out? Ack Maohai. Your land...
The Antarctic interior tends to have low relative humidity.
You will get the odd fog, but very infrequently, so laundry dries.
24 hr. day light helps, but even in polar winter things will dry it only
takes longer.
>> Synthetic bags are used in field work for a number of reasons.
> If only igloos were easier to build.
Naw, you can use tents. We used them for months.
Fine snow for igloos, cuts like styrofoam.
They still teach igloo building before sending people into the field.
Maohai was at bases (McMurdo and Pole);
we were in a much smaller field camp.
Ed Huesers
> >> >> Saving heat by reusing it as part of a sleep bag system
> >Eugene Miya wrote:
> >> I would suspect that some sort of heat pipething rather than a metal
> >> thing which usually has a lower specific heat.
> Ed Huesers wrote:
> >This has metal with high thermal conductivity with lots of surface
> >area to absorb the heat. Once you stop breathing or by the time you are
> >done exhaling the outer most part of the metal is warmed up above
> >freezing. Then when inhaling the moisture is brought back into your
> >lungs. Less dehydration.
Eugene Miya wrote:
> This isn't a Dune Still suit, you lose the water. Water is energy.
> The problem is that you are not merely conducting heat. There is an
> issue of transport, and then 2 issues of transfer
And I've been trolling for more than two years to find someone that's
tried the Polar Wrap.
> >> You would use something like CaCl2 to remove the moisture on at least
> >> the short term.
> > Desiccant dryers. They can be dried but yes, on the short term.
> You understand the idea.
Weight and lots of moisture to get rid of, it doesn't dry that well
without lots of air circulation.
> >> But I can foresee problems with that as getting rid of the water
> >> which could not be frozen.
> >The metal doesn't freeze, heat sink. The remaining moisture would
> >significantly reduce the dew point.
> Metals aren't great heat sinks, They do okay because of conduction.
The warmth is supposed to be there until the end of the inhaled
breath, if I remember right from talking to the mfg.
In the mold trade, we used to use copper beryllium until they found
out it is a carcinogen. Now they have replacements. But heavier metals
do hold more heat than steels that are normally used in molds.
> >> > Breathing inside a bag would mean that one could have a thinner bag
> >> >which would make it easier for the moisture to pass through the bag.
> >> I would not want to compromise for a thinner bag.
> > You've bivied.
> Lots.
So, I've heard;^)
> In summer you don't need a lot. In many cases you can do it with what
> you have in your pockets.
They had a nude hiker walk out of southern CO mountains. Came up to
some farmer after a few days of being lost with nothing.
> In winter, you have a thinner margin of security.
Has never been for the faint of heart.
> >> > So, this product wasn't around when you were in Maohai's cold land?
> >> Neck scarves were. And I went down before Maohai.
> > Hmmm, how did they dry things out? Ack Maohai. Your land...
> The Antarctic interior tends to have low relative humidity.
> You will get the odd fog, but very infrequently, so laundry dries.
> 24 hr. day light helps, but even in polar winter things will dry it only
> takes longer.
Mallory. This is where pyramids of ice would have come in handy
instead of the regular mummy method of preservation.
> >> Synthetic bags are used in field work for a number of reasons.
> > If only igloos were easier to build.
> Naw, you can use tents. We used them for months.
Don't look for my sympathy;^)
> Fine snow for igloos, cuts like styrofoam.
In Mountain Of Ice it looked to be very large ice crystals. You out
on the flats must have had finer grain. Like ND. Drive a car over it.
> They still teach igloo building before sending people into the field.
Intelligence is ultra-lite.
> Maohai was at bases (McMurdo and Pole);
> we were in a much smaller field camp.
Ah, he was in the tourist camp:^<
Ed Huesers
> >> >> Saving heat by reusing it as part of a sleep bag system
> >Eugene Miya wrote:
> >> I would suspect that some sort of heat pipething rather than a metal
> >> thing which usually has a lower specific heat.
> Ed Huesers wrote:
> >This has metal with high thermal conductivity with lots of surface
> >area to absorb the heat. Once you stop breathing or by the time you are
> >done exhaling the outer most part of the metal is warmed up above
> >freezing. Then when inhaling the moisture is brought back into your
> >lungs. Less dehydration.
Eugene Miya wrote:
> This isn't a Dune Still suit, you lose the water. Water is energy.
> The problem is that you are not merely conducting heat. There is an
> issue of transport, and then 2 issues of transfer
And I've been trolling for more than two years to find someone that's
tried the Polar Wrap.
> >> You would use something like CaCl2 to remove the moisture on at least
> >> the short term.
> > Desiccant dryers. They can be dried but yes, on the short term.
> You understand the idea.
Weight and lots of moisture to get rid of, it doesn't dry that well
without lots of air circulation.
> >> But I can foresee problems with that as getting rid of the water
> >> which could not be frozen.
> >The metal doesn't freeze, heat sink. The remaining moisture would
> >significantly reduce the dew point.
> Metals aren't great heat sinks, They do okay because of conduction.
The warmth is supposed to be there until the end of the inhaled
breath, if I remember right from talking to the mfg.
In the mold trade, we used to use copper beryllium until they found
out it is a carcinogen. Now they have replacements. But heavier metals
do hold more heat than steels that are normally used in molds.
> >> > Breathing inside a bag would mean that one could have a thinner bag
> >> >which would make it easier for the moisture to pass through the bag.
> >> I would not want to compromise for a thinner bag.
> > You've bivied.
> Lots.
So, I've heard;^)
> In summer you don't need a lot. In many cases you can do it with what
> you have in your pockets.
They had a nude hiker walk out of southern CO mountains. Came up to
some farmer after a few days of being lost with nothing.
> In winter, you have a thinner margin of security.
Has never been for the faint of heart.
> >> > So, this product wasn't around when you were in Maohai's cold land?
> >> Neck scarves were. And I went down before Maohai.
> > Hmmm, how did they dry things out? Ack Maohai. Your land...
> The Antarctic interior tends to have low relative humidity.
> You will get the odd fog, but very infrequently, so laundry dries.
> 24 hr. day light helps, but even in polar winter things will dry it only
> takes longer.
Mallory. This is where pyramids of ice would have come in handy
instead of the regular mummy method of preservation.
> >> Synthetic bags are used in field work for a number of reasons.
> > If only igloos were easier to build.
> Naw, you can use tents. We used them for months.
Don't look for my sympathy;^)
> Fine snow for igloos, cuts like styrofoam.
In Mountain Of Ice it looked to be very large ice crystals. You out
on the flats must have had finer grain. Like ND. Drive a car over it.
> They still teach igloo building before sending people into the field.
Intelligence is ultra-lite.
> Maohai was at bases (McMurdo and Pole);
> we were in a much smaller field camp.
Ah, he was in the tourist camp:^<
Ed Huesers
Shameless plug: http://www.grandshelters.com
Eugene Miya
Ed Huesers <e...@grandshelters.com> wrote:
>> >> >> Saving heat by reusing it as part of a sleep bag system
>
>tried the Polar Wrap.
Try one yourself.
>> >> CaCl2
>> > Desiccant dryers. They can be dried but yes, on the short term.
>
> Weight and lots of moisture to get rid of, it doesn't dry that well
>without lots of air circulation.
It's all about conserving energy.
>> >> But I can foresee problems with that as getting rid of the water
>> >> which could not be frozen.
>
> The warmth is supposed to be there until the end of the inhaled
>breath, if I remember right from talking to the mfg.
The heat is supposed to be there and dumped into the bag, but that leave
liquid water which can turn solid.
That is the problem.
> In the mold trade, we used to use copper beryllium until they found
>out it is a carcinogen. Now they have replacements. But heavier metals
>do hold more heat than steels that are normally used in molds.
Have to try other things.
>> > You've bivied.
> So, I've heard;^)
No biggie.
So did Rebuffat, Buhl, Terray, and all their colleagues.
Starlight and Storm.
>> In summer you don't need a lot. In many cases you can do it with what
>> you have in your pockets.
>
> They had a nude hiker walk out of southern CO mountains. Came up to
>some farmer after a few days of being lost with nothing.
The various tribes were practucally nude even before the white man came
to the continent. Sure, some of them died. But most didn't.
Ever wonder why? This is in part the a.c.a. wild threads.
>> In winter, you have a thinner margin of security.
>
> Has never been for the faint of heart.
Winter isn't malicious, but it's not forgiving either.
>> >> > So, this product wasn't around when you were in Maohai's cold land?
>> >> Neck scarves were. And I went down before Maohai.
>> > Hmmm, how did they dry things out? Ack Maohai. Your land...
>> The Antarctic interior tends to have low relative humidity.
>> You will get the odd fog, but very infrequently, so laundry dries.
>> 24 hr. day light helps, but even in polar winter things will dry it only
>> takes longer.
>
> Mallory. This is where pyramids of ice would have come in handy
>instead of the regular mummy method of preservation.
I'm not clear how Mallory (Everest) works into this. You mean his
mummified body?
Wood like in the historic huts are more fire prone because of the driness.
>> >> Synthetic bags are used in field work for a number of reasons.
>> > If only igloos were easier to build.
>> Naw, you can use tents. We used them for months.
> Don't look for my sympathy;^)
Your job.
Tents get up in less than 1/2 hour, have nice wood floors with smart
construction. Flapping doesn't become a big problem.
>> Fine snow for igloos, cuts like styrofoam.
>
> In Mountain Of Ice it looked to be very large ice crystals. You out
>on the flats must have had finer grain. Like ND. Drive a car over it.
Naw, you could not drive a car. This is why you need tracked vehicles or
huge low pressure big tires. You didn't need snowshoes (that's the joke)
however skis are useful. Cars can drive on thick enough sea ice which
has been steamed down to make it harder, which is also able to support
larger wheeled transports like C-130s, C-141s, C-5s, and C-17s in
early season. This is military information. The Soviets drove over
many lakes in winter to resupply Stalingrad and other battlefields.
Knowing ice thickness, salinity, etc.
Very large crystals only slowly form in areas sheltered from winds
and given a lot of time to form. 6 inch diameter crystals were easily
possible.
>> They still teach igloo building before sending people into the field.
>
> Intelligence is ultra-lite.
But it also has to be good most of the time.
>> Maohai was at bases (McMurdo and Pole);
>> we were in a much smaller field camp.
>
> Ah, he was in the tourist camp:^<
Maohai was an astronomer, and his instrumentation had lots of base
requirements. I was with glaciologists, and we have different
instrumentation requirements. This is why Watson is trolling over in the
thread he mentioned Bryson. Maohai had MDs. We were hours by fast
planes from MDs if not days depending on weather. We had unforgiving
arcutate crevasses. He had 1,000 to 100 people to call for help.
We had between 40 to less than 20 people in some cases over the months.
Our worse injury was one person (a friend on our project) who strained
soft tissues, painful, but no fractures, no fatalities.
We had to depend on ourselves first and foremost. All that's left of
there where we were are marker flags which are slowing getting buried as
well as buried 20 ft. high turd towers where our outhouses were.
As they slowly creep their way to the Antarctic Pacific.
And some number of solar power intrumentation platforms which will
ultimately also get buried by drift. I think some of our colleagues
helped drill holes for Maohai's project (PICO). But he can tell you more.
Bruce W.1
>
>
> But, what should you do if the weather gets bad, if not button
> up? (Assuming that you have, eg, a bivybag with a hoop and vent
> at lest in the other end).
>
> Get a schnorkel :). Actually, once upon a time I was somewhat
> seriously thinking about experimenting with an exhalation
> schnorkel for winter camping. Using the exhalation valve of
> an old gas mask 'backwards', the exhaled air would go out through
> a pipe, whereas the inhaled air would come from inside the
> tent.
>
> If not having a schnorkel <g>, a wool balaclava or such helps a
> bit in trapping the moisture of the exhaled air, and also warms
> and moistens the inhaled air.
>
> > In serious winter conditions, the humidity is rarely high, so the
> > venting will help a great deal.
>
> The absolute humidity is low, but the relative humidity of cold
> air is typically high. Venting the exhaled warm and moist air
> out of the tent isn't easy, as the moisture will condense
> immediately when coming into contact with any cold
> surface. A double-walled tent is somewhat better here, as
> the inner wall is warmer than in a single walled tent.
>
> tent in the morning :). Frostliners have been sometimes
> used for trapping the condensed moisture. These were removed,
> and beaten outside of the tent in the morning to remove the
> ice.
================================================
I once saw a device made for winter joggers. A flat plastic box was
strapped onto your chest. It had a mouthpiece and tube connecting it to
the box. Air was inhaled thru the box to warm it.
What's really needed is a snorkel with a heat exchanger. Air is inhaled
thru and inner tube. Air is exhaled through a surrounding outer tube.
MB
> I once saw a device made for winter joggers. A flat plastic box was
> strapped onto your chest. It had a mouthpiece and tube connecting it to
> the box. Air was inhaled thru the box to warm it.
Many years simple and efficient (I'm told) heatexchanger
facemasks were sold over here, intended for skiing, jogging
and other aerobic cold-weather aerobic sports. The problem
was (again, I'm told) that they looked a bit too weird for
continued commercia success. The metal grid brings perhaps to
mind Hannibal the man eater or Darth Wader :). Nevertheless,
a metal grid is simple and efficient, and the breathing
resistance is neglible. One can still see these on some
joggers, and I've hope to eventually find one on a flea market.
That said, I find that a woolen breathe-through balaclava is
pretty good. The problem being that it gets iced up rather
quickly. This isn't all bad inside a tent - the balaclava
acts a bit like a frost liner. And it's also a bit of a
moisture exchanger, increasing the humidity of the inhaled
air , which is good too, as cold air is dry (in absolute
terms) and the moisture loss of exhalation is slightly
reduced.
> What's really needed is a snorkel with a heat exchanger.
> Air is inhaled thru and inner tube. Air is exhaled through
> a surrounding outer tube.
I don't see cold air inhalation as a significant problem
when sleeping, as the inhaled volume/time is small as
compared to the one during excercise. Besides, the air
inside the tent is typically already somewhat warmer than
the air on the outside. Adding a heat exchanger would
be nice of course, but I doubt whether it'd be worth much
of increase in complexity, weight and breathing resistance.
Pete Hickey
>Bruce W.1 >
>That said, I find that a woolen breathe-through balaclava is
>pretty good. The problem being that it gets iced up rather
>quickly.
You don't have a beard, do you? Not only does it ice
up, but it freezes onto your beard. Check out the second
picture here:
http://mudhead.uottawa.ca/~pete/bike.html
>I don't see cold air inhalation as a significant problem
>when sleeping, as the inhaled volume/time is small as
>compared to the one during excercise. Besides, the air
>inside the tent is typically already somewhat warmer than
>the air on the outside. Adding a heat exchanger would
>be nice of course, but I doubt whether it'd be worth much
>of increase in complexity, weight and breathing resistance.
Well, it would reduce heat loss, meaning a lighter sleeping bag.
Difference in weight for the bag, would probably be less
than the exchanger, though.
--
--
LITTLE KNOWN FACT: Did you know that 86% of North Americans cannot
taste the difference between fried dog and fried cat?
Jerry M. Wright
(Pete Hickey) wrote:
>In article <7uvvft6...@goblin.research.nokia.com>, MB <*@*.*> wrote:
>>Bruce W.1 >
>
>>That said, I find that a woolen breathe-through balaclava is
>>pretty good. The problem being that it gets iced up rather
>>quickly.
>
>You don't have a beard, do you? Not only does it ice
>up, but it freezes onto your beard. Check out the second
>picture here:
>
> http://mudhead.uottawa.ca/~pete/bike.html
In cross-country skiing, I've always found that once my beard ices up,
my face is much warmer. It makes a nice insulator/wind block.
[snip]
>--
MB
> You don't have a beard, do you? Not only does it [balaclava]
> picture here:
> http://mudhead.uottawa.ca/~pete/bike.html
And you'd need a haircut too... <g>
On the same lines, I've noticed that eyelashes are
prone to icing and sticking the eyelids together when
wearing a balaclava. When wearing goggles, the problem
is replaced with the most inconvenient condensation/
freezing on and inside the goggles. And those wearing
spectacles will often end up seeing much better without
them - regardless of the severity of their myopia -
when having to wear a balaclava or mask to avoid facial
frost bite.
Obviously, the schnorkel would help here too. And,
unlike the tent schnorkel, schnorkels for on the
move are readily available and can be bought at
any diving store :).
Ed Huesers
> >>That said, I find that a woolen breathe-through balaclava is
> >>pretty good. The problem being that it gets iced up rather
> >>quickly.
> Pete Hickey wrote:
> >You don't have a beard, do you? Not only does it ice
> >up, but it freezes onto your beard. Check out the second
> >picture here: http://mudhead.uottawa.ca/~pete/bike.html
Jerry M. Wright wrote:
> In cross-country skiing, I've always found that once my beard ices up,
> my face is much warmer. It makes a nice insulator/wind block.
That's fine until it gets to weighing a pound or more, course it does
pull the wrinkles out of ones forehead and make one look younger.
Free Igloo Ed wallpaper:
http://www.grandshelters.com/images/igloo-ed-wallpaper.jpg
Ed Huesers
http://www.grandshelters.com
