Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss

Peak 1 Stove Question

204 views
Skip to first unread message

Ute R.Willmore

unread,
Aug 5, 1994, 10:29:11 AM8/5/94
to
Bingo (nowhere) wrote:
: I'm in the market for a backpacking stove. It seems that
: Coleman has made some changes in its line of Peak 1 stoves.
: There seems to be only one control lever now. The multi-fuel
: version had a different fuel tank design for a while (440B model),
: but the newer ones are the same as the regular Peak 1's.

: Does anybody have any insight into why these changes were made
: and/or experiences with the news stoves?

: Thanks

I recently posted a note about that stove, but I guess you missed it.
A friend of mine bought a Peak 1 single-fuel stive and had some
problems with controlling the flame, mostly that she couldn't. She
tried every stove at the store she had bought hers from, but either
they didn't start at all, or the flame could not be controlled beyond
high and off.

The store manager called Coleman and they said that the Peak 1 series
is suppossed to have a high, medium and low setting and if his Peak 1
single fuel stoves did not, it was due to a batch of bad valves they
got and used in the stoves. Coleman asked the manager to return the bad
stoves for replacement. My friend got a multi-fueled version at no
extra charge, and it works great. Nice product support by Coleman
and the store!

The upshot of this is this: If you by a Peak 1 stove, try it immediately.
If it does not allow you to control the flame return it. It seems the
problem is limited to the single fuel version, so if you buy that one
you may be fine. We tried the stive last weekend and it worked like a
charm, very easy to light, nice flame control, and boiled a quart of
water in 3 - 4 minutes.

Hope this helps

Ute.

Bingo

unread,
Aug 4, 1994, 7:57:16 AM8/4/94
to

Duane P Mantick

unread,
Aug 5, 1994, 4:57:52 PM8/5/94
to
u...@wapiti.ftc.scs.ag.gov (Ute R.Willmore) writes:

>The upshot of this is this: If you by a Peak 1 stove, try it immediately.
>If it does not allow you to control the flame return it. It seems the
>problem is limited to the single fuel version, so if you buy that one
>you may be fine. We tried the stive last weekend and it worked like a
>charm, very easy to light, nice flame control, and boiled a quart of
>water in 3 - 4 minutes.

Does this also apply to the 5450A700 UltraLight Propane model?
I just acquired one of these and have not fired it up yet......I don't
know how much difference there is between it and the Peak 1 I see
advertised in some of the catalogs other than the three short adjustable
legs......

Duane
wb9...@harbor.ecn.purdue.edu

Btalk

unread,
Aug 5, 1994, 7:25:02 AM8/5/94
to
In article <nowhere-04...@gtchen.jpl.nasa.gov>, nowhere (Bingo)
writes:

<re change in Peak 1 multifuel stove fuel tank design.

Take another look. You may be confusing the Multifuel (model 550B499) with
the Dual Fuel (model 442-700), which burns Coleman or unleaded car gas.
The Dual fuel has the same tank as the Feather 400 (model 400B7014), which
is the single fuel stove that has been around a long time.
Regards,
Bob Talkiewicz, Binghamton,NY<bt...@aol.com>

Eric Geoffrey Vann

unread,
Aug 8, 1994, 10:12:29 AM8/8/94
to
In article <31tibn$4...@ftcnews.scs.ag.gov> Ute R.Willmore,

u...@wapiti.ftc.scs.ag.gov writes:
>I recently posted a note about that stove, but I guess you missed it.
>A friend of mine bought a Peak 1 single-fuel stive and had some
>problems with controlling the flame, mostly that she couldn't. She
>tried every stove at the store she had bought hers from, but either
>they didn't start at all, or the flame could not be controlled beyond
>high and off.
>
>The store manager called Coleman and they said that the Peak 1 series
>is suppossed to have a high, medium and low setting and if his Peak 1
>single fuel stoves did not, it was due to a batch of bad valves they
>got and used in the stoves. Coleman asked the manager to return the bad
>stoves for replacement. My friend got a multi-fueled version at no
>extra charge, and it works great. Nice product support by Coleman
>and the store!
>
>The upshot of this is this: If you by a Peak 1 stove, try it immediately.
>If it does not allow you to control the flame return it. It seems the
>problem is limited to the single fuel version, so if you buy that one
>you may be fine. We tried the stive last weekend and it worked like a
>charm, very easy to light, nice flame control, and boiled a quart of
>water in 3 - 4 minutes.

Thanks for posting this information. I am in the process of purchasing
a stove and have been confused at the discussions on the net regarding
flame control on single burner units, such as MSR, Svea, etc.

Some folks claim that these stoves have no control, others such as
yourself, mention that stoves like the Peak I do indeed have some
limited control.

How widespread is this problem? Does anyone have a list of which
stoves over reasonable control and which don't?

+---------------------------------------------------------------+
l = @ @ l e-mail: 72267...@compuserve.com l
l = _ \ \ l beez...@aol.com l
l = (*)-~--+-~--+-(*) l eric...@wes.mot.com l
l l voice: (708) 538-2888 l
l Team (Beezodog) Vann l fax: (708) 576-0710 l
l Ryan Fleetwood Recumbent l Hezekiah 6:8 l
l (2) Vanguard Recumbents l "Recumbents are a way of life... l
+---------------------------------------------------------------+

Ute R.Willmore

unread,
Aug 8, 1994, 3:38:33 PM8/8/94
to
Duane P Mantick (wb9...@constellation.ecn.purdue.edu) wrote:
: u...@wapiti.ftc.scs.ag.gov (Ute R.Willmore) writes:

: >The upshot of this is this: If you by a Peak 1 stove, try it immediately.
: >If it does not allow you to control the flame return it. It seems the

: Does this also apply to the 5450A700 UltraLight Propane model?


: I just acquired one of these and have not fired it up yet....


I don't know about the propane model. We only tried the white fuel versions,
since backpacking a propane stove is seems impractical, due to weight
concerns.

: know how much difference there is between it and the Peak 1 I see


: advertised in some of the catalogs other than the three short adjustable
: legs......

Main difference is fuel, which of course results in different operating
instructions. I imagine there is no pumping needed with propane stoves,
since the propane is pressurized in the bottle.

Ute.

Ute R.Willmore

unread,
Aug 8, 1994, 3:44:09 PM8/8/94
to
Eric Geoffrey Vann (eric...@msmail.wes.mot.com) wrote:
: >... very easy to light, nice flame control, and boiled a quart of

: >water in 3 - 4 minutes.

: Some folks claim that these stoves have no control, others such as


: yourself, mention that stoves like the Peak I do indeed have some
: limited control.

My experience is limited to the MSR whisperlite, which had no flame control
other than ON/OFF, and the Coleman Peak 1 stoves and the old boyscout stove
Coleman made 20 years ago. The peak 1 442 stove my friend has, has very nice
flame control, and according to the local store manager, Peak 1 stoves have
the best flame control.

: How widespread is this problem? Does anyone have a list of which
: stoves over reasonable control and which don't?

The problem I mentioned about Peak 1 stoves appear to be limited to a specific
batch of the 440 model. Sorry I don't know a batch number.

Ute.

Duane P Mantick

unread,
Aug 10, 1994, 1:35:06 PM8/10/94
to
u...@wapiti.ftc.scs.ag.gov (Ute R.Willmore) writes:
>Duane P Mantick (wb9...@constellation.ecn.purdue.edu) wrote:
>: u...@wapiti.ftc.scs.ag.gov (Ute R.Willmore) writes:

>: >The upshot of this is this: If you by a Peak 1 stove, try it immediately.
>: >If it does not allow you to control the flame return it. It seems the

>: Does this also apply to the 5450A700 UltraLight Propane model?
>: I just acquired one of these and have not fired it up yet....

>I don't know about the propane model. We only tried the white fuel versions,
>since backpacking a propane stove is seems impractical, due to weight
>concerns.

I suppose it depends on what you are planning. At this point
in time the wife and I might be out 1 night or 2 at the most, more
than likely not more than that. For that short time period, I'd rather
lug a few propane cylinders than worry about a backpack full of a flammable
liquid.......and as I've discovered, the small-and-cheap-under-2-bucks-
at-Kmart non-refillable propanes are not very heavy at all.....

(and they ARE Coleman cylinders, the ones recommended in the stove
manual....not some aftermarket knockoff)

>: know how much difference there is between it and the Peak 1 I see
>: advertised in some of the catalogs other than the three short adjustable
>: legs......

>Main difference is fuel, which of course results in different operating
>instructions. I imagine there is no pumping needed with propane stoves,
>since the propane is pressurized in the bottle.

Right. Hook it up, turn it on, light it off and you're
cooking with gas. :-)

I tried to call up Coleman and ask them about this stuff, and
got little real information other than "we have three catalogs of this
stuff for $3 a piece - buy them and your questions will be answered".

What I WANTED to know from THEM - the Campmor catalog has the
Peak 1 line, and also shows both a stuff sack and a box container
for that Peak 1 Propane stove. Will the Ultralight 5450A700 fit
in these? He said no, but the nature of his replies made me think
he didn't know shit from apple-butter. I also asked about the wind deflector
that Campmor has for the Peak 1.....didn't get much of an answer about THAT,
either.

So I dunno - maybe I'll just buy them and see. For the nine bucks
that Coleman wants for these catalogs, I can afford to try the wind deflector,
and if it DOESN'T work, return it!

Duane

Greg Estep

unread,
Aug 10, 1994, 12:26:03 PM8/10/94
to
Ute R.Willmore (u...@wapiti.ftc.scs.ag.gov) wrote:

: : Some folks claim that these stoves have no control, others such as


: : yourself, mention that stoves like the Peak I do indeed have some
: : limited control.

: My experience is limited to the MSR whisperlite, which had no flame control
: other than ON/OFF, and the Coleman Peak 1 stoves and the old boyscout stove
: Coleman made 20 years ago. The peak 1 442 stove my friend has, has very nice
: flame control, and according to the local store manager, Peak 1 stoves have
: the best flame control.

Please don't consider this a flame (pun kindda intended)...

I am a fairly new user of a Whisperlite (cooked about 10 meals on one).
While I agree that the flame control is not fool-proof, I have been able to
successfully simmer with mine. I even scrambled eggs and made pancakes
this past weekend with one. I didn't use any sort of heat diffuser either.
A diffuser would have, admittedly, made the task easier. I wasn't even
using the heat deflector/wind shield that comes with the stove and both
mornings were kindda cool and there was a slight breeze the morning I made
the eggs.

I'm not doing anything different from what the instructions say.

Is the normal behavior for a new stove? Should I expect the ability to
adjust the heat to diminish with use?

--
Greg Estep, CNE <gr...@carsinfo.com> Research Division
<http://www.carsinfo.com/~greg> CARS Information Systems Corporation

Undetectable errors are infinite in variety, in contrast to detectable
errors, which by definition are limited.
Unknown

Eric Geoffrey Vann

unread,
Aug 10, 1994, 5:29:57 PM8/10/94
to
In article <32av2r$7...@ns.oar.net> Greg Estep, gr...@carsinfo.com writes:
>I am a fairly new user of a Whisperlite (cooked about 10 meals on one).
>While I agree that the flame control is not fool-proof, I have been able
to
>successfully simmer with mine. I even scrambled eggs and made pancakes
>this past weekend with one. I didn't use any sort of heat diffuser
either.
>A diffuser would have, admittedly, made the task easier. I wasn't even
>using the heat deflector/wind shield that comes with the stove and both
>mornings were kindda cool and there was a slight breeze the morning I
made
>the eggs.

I have been examining several stoves in the local REI. The Peak stoves
have
a red knob located halfway up the gas line that appears to serve as the
simmer control.

I take it that the large knob marked OFF on the MSR Whisperlite serves the
same purpose there?

+---------------------------------------------------------------+
| = @ @ | e-mail: 72267...@compuserve.com |
| = _ \ \ | beez...@aol.com |
| = (*)-~--+-~--+-(*) | eric...@wes.mot.com |
| | voice: (708) 538-2888 |
| Team (Beezodog) Vann | fax: (708) 576-0710 |
| Ryan Fleetwood Recumbent | Hezekiah 6:8 |
| (2) Vanguard Recumbents | "Recumbents are a way of life..." |
+---------------------------------------------------------------+

Kevin Moore

unread,
Aug 11, 1994, 10:23:03 AM8/11/94
to
In article <CuC91...@wes.mot.com> Eric Geoffrey Vann <eric...@msmail.wes.mot.com> writes:

>I have been examining several stoves in the local REI. The Peak stoves
>have
>a red knob located halfway up the gas line that appears to serve as the
>simmer control.

>I take it that the large knob marked OFF on the MSR Whisperlite serves the
>same purpose there?

Sort of. It is the fuel flow control, but simmering an MSR is a black art,
largely because of the large amount of fuel line between the needle valve
and the jet. This causes a long delay in the response to changes in the valve
setting. Many would have it that an MSR is either off or on with no in
between, which is simply not the case. To simmer, you fully close the fuel
line, and wait for the flame to die down before bringing the flame up to the
intensity you want. This allows the vaporisation rate to equalise with the
flow rate.

If you simply turn the stove down to what you think is the right flame,
invariably what happens is that as the fuel in the line uses itself up, the
flame dies down further. You then open up, invariably too far in your
frustration, and wind back flame to what you think is right, and the same
occurs. Several of these experiences later, you either throw away a perfectly
good stove, or learn the trick.

Kevin Moore
k...@ballarat.edu.au

e...@netcom.com

unread,
Aug 10, 1994, 9:12:01 PM8/10/94
to

Just wondering about the disposable propane bottles, are they recyclable?

Ute R.Willmore

unread,
Aug 11, 1994, 10:08:47 AM8/11/94
to
Greg Estep (gr...@carsinfo.com) wrote:
: Please don't consider this a flame (pun kindda intended)...

I don't, why would I?

: I am a fairly new user of a Whisperlite (cooked about 10 meals on one).

: While I agree that the flame control is not fool-proof, I have been able to
: successfully simmer with mine. I even scrambled eggs and made pancakes
: this past weekend with one. I didn't use any sort of heat diffuser either.
: A diffuser would have, admittedly, made the task easier. I wasn't even
: using the heat deflector/wind shield that comes with the stove and both
: mornings were kindda cool and there was a slight breeze the morning I made
: the eggs.

: I'm not doing anything different from what the instructions say.

: Is the normal behavior for a new stove? Should I expect the ability to
: adjust the heat to diminish with use?

When my friend first bought her Whisperlite, it too had some flame control.
That was on our first trip to Mount Zirkel WA. The next time out, after
someone else had borrowed her stove, she could not control the flame other
than ON/OFF. Third time out, she couldn't even keep the stove lit! If
we had been out for several days this could have been a real problem, but
this was just along day hike.

I guess the stove could have been damaged when she loaned it out, but I
would not want a stove that will malfunction after just a few uses and
one possible misuse. She didn't either and bought the Peak 1 instead.

What makes the Peak 1 really nice is the attached fuel tank. It is so
much faster to get it set up and cooking!


Ute.

Ute R.Willmore

unread,
Aug 11, 1994, 10:11:49 AM8/11/94
to
: I have been examining several stoves in the local REI. The Peak stoves

: have
: a red knob located halfway up the gas line that appears to serve as the
: simmer control.

Yeap, its also the ON/OFF knob.

: I take it that the large knob marked OFF on the MSR Whisperlite serves the
: same purpose there?

Yeap, again.

West Van Parks Rec

unread,
Aug 11, 1994, 1:10:19 PM8/11/94
to
Great advice, thanks a lot.

Jerry Bargo

unread,
Aug 11, 1994, 7:47:01 PM8/11/94
to
Greg Estep (gr...@carsinfo.com) wrote:
: I am a fairly new user of a Whisperlite (cooked about 10 meals on one).
: While I agree that the flame control is not fool-proof, I have been able to
: successfully simmer with mine. ....

: Is the normal behavior for a new stove?

Beginners' luck! 8-)

James McCrostie

unread,
Aug 11, 1994, 8:37:30 PM8/11/94
to

In a previous article, eric...@msmail.wes.mot.com (Eric Geoffrey Vann) says:

>In article <31tibn$4...@ftcnews.scs.ag.gov> Ute R.Willmore,
>u...@wapiti.ftc.scs.ag.gov writes:

>>A friend of mine bought a Peak 1 single-fuel stive and had some
>>problems with controlling the flame, mostly that she couldn't. She
>>tried every stove at the store she had bought hers from, but either
>>they didn't start at all, or the flame could not be controlled beyond
>>high and off.
>>

-------------

I had a problem with a peak 1 stove I had bought last year. The
flame was either high (much too high) or off. After 2 days of trial and
error I figured out the problem was that I had filled the stove with fuel
up too high. There was no "fill line" so it was hard to tell how much to
add. Once I learned to fill the stove just a few centimeters less the
flame adjustment worked great.


--
James McCrostie
as...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA

Greg Estep

unread,
Aug 12, 1994, 11:43:22 AM8/12/94
to
Ute R.Willmore (u...@wapiti.ftc.scs.ag.gov) wrote:

: Greg Estep (gr...@carsinfo.com) wrote:
: : Please don't consider this a flame (pun kindda intended)...

: I don't, why would I?

I was concerned that it would come across sounding something like:

Whisperlites can simmer, you don't know what you are talking about.

or:

I can do it, why can't you? You must be an idiot!

: : I am a fairly new user of a Whisperlite (cooked about 10 meals on one).

: : While I agree that the flame control is not fool-proof, I have been able to
: : successfully simmer with mine. I even scrambled eggs and made pancakes
: : this past weekend with one. I didn't use any sort of heat diffuser either.

--
Greg Estep, CNE <gr...@carsinfo.com> Research Division
<http://www.carsinfo.com/~greg> CARS Information Systems Corporation

Health is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die.
Unknown

Pete Hickey

unread,
Aug 12, 1994, 11:59:32 AM8/12/94
to
I used to think that I had no problem simering with my whiperlight
or with my SVEA. I've cooked things like omlets with no problem.

Just last night, I was looking through a cookbook, and saw a recipe
for some kind of stew. In the book, it said to simmer it for an hour
to an hour and a half.

Now, when {your favorite stove} owners talk about simmering, are you
talking about quickly cooking something on low, or a real long slow
simmer?

-Pete

--
Pete Hickey | Pe...@mudhead.uottawa.CA | For sale!
Communication Services | or (if desperate) | Brooms made by the insane
University of Ottawa | pet...@uottawa.bitnet | call Noah Vail
Ottawa,Ont. Canada K1N 6N5| (613) 564-7646 | 9-999-999-9999999999

Thomas J Miller

unread,
Aug 12, 1994, 3:34:46 PM8/12/94
to
In article <32g694$2...@csi0.csi.uottawa.ca>,

Pete Hickey <pe...@mudhead.uottawa.ca> wrote:
>I used to think that I had no problem simering with my whiperlight
>or with my SVEA.

[snip]

>Now, when {your favorite stove} owners talk about simmering, are you
>talking about quickly cooking something on low, or a real long slow
>simmer?

I see no reason why my Peak1 couldn't do a RLSS(tm), but I probably
wouldn't plan such a meal for fuel considerations. I think the big
difference is at the "throttle" valve. If you are throttling
liquid fuel, I don't think you will have as much control as when
you are throttling gaseous fuel. My Peak1 (an older version) has
an on/off valve and a separate throttle valve AFTER the generator.

Tom

SUSAN SHROYER

unread,
Aug 12, 1994, 5:50:05 PM8/12/94
to eric...@msmail.wes.mot.com
On Mon, 8 Aug 1994 14:12:29 GMT,
Eric Geoffrey Vann <eric...@msmail.wes.mot.com> wrote:

>In article <31tibn$4...@ftcnews.scs.ag.gov> Ute R.Willmore,
>u...@wapiti.ftc.scs.ag.gov writes:

>>I recently posted a note about that stove, but I guess you missed it.

>>A friend of mine bought a Peak 1 single-fuel stive and had some
>>problems with controlling the flame, mostly that she couldn't. She
>>tried every stove at the store she had bought hers from, but either
>>they didn't start at all, or the flame could not be controlled beyond
>>high and off.
>>

>>The store manager called Coleman and they said that the Peak 1 series
>>is suppossed to have a high, medium and low setting and if his Peak 1
>>single fuel stoves did not, it was due to a batch of bad valves they
>>got and used in the stoves. Coleman asked the manager to return the bad
>>stoves for replacement. My friend got a multi-fueled version at no
>>extra charge, and it works great. Nice product support by Coleman
>>and the store!
>>

>>The upshot of this is this: If you by a Peak 1 stove, try it immediately.
>>If it does not allow you to control the flame return it. It seems the

>>problem is limited to the single fuel version, so if you buy that one
>>you may be fine. We tried the stive last weekend and it worked like a

>>charm, very easy to light, nice flame control, and boiled a quart of


>>water in 3 - 4 minutes.
>

>Thanks for posting this information. I am in the process of purchasing
>a stove and have been confused at the discussions on the net regarding
>flame control on single burner units, such as MSR, Svea, etc.
>

>Some folks claim that these stoves have no control, others such as
>yourself, mention that stoves like the Peak I do indeed have some
>limited control.
>

>How widespread is this problem? Does anyone have a list of which
>stoves over reasonable control and which don't?

If you are looking for a great single-burner stove check out the Apex I or II.
They are made by Peak 1(Coleman) and have excellent flame adjustability. The
price isn't bad and it comes with a fuel bottle. The only drawback is that
it is hard to clean/repair on the trail. >


>+---------------------------------------------------------------+
>l = @ @ l e-mail: 72267...@compuserve.com l
>l = _ \ \ l beez...@aol.com l
>l = (*)-~--+-~--+-(*) l eric...@wes.mot.com l
>l l voice: (708) 538-2888 l
>l Team (Beezodog) Vann l fax: (708) 576-0710 l
>l Ryan Fleetwood Recumbent l Hezekiah 6:8 l

>l (2) Vanguard Recumbents l "Recumbents are a way of life... l
>+---------------------------------------------------------------+

Arvin Gee

unread,
Aug 12, 1994, 4:25:44 PM8/12/94
to
Like a lot of people who have been writing about simmering problems
they've had with the whisperlite, i did too the first time i used it.
But i've found that if you burn the whisperlite for about 15-20 sec on
high until the metal glows a nice red, then bring the gas flow down,
it'll simmer quite nicely. how long you can simmer, seems to depend
on how long the burner body stays hot. the reason that the
whisperlites (and some of the newer peak 1's ive used) don't simmer
very well is because the control valves control the liquid flow
and not the vapor flow.

in terms or whisperlite reliability, i've never had any problems
with mine. i make sure that i clean it thoroughly (completely stripped
to pieces) after every trip, and it works beautifully.


arvin gee
ac...@ucdavis.edu
University of California, Davis/ Argonne National Laboratory

Ute R.Willmore

unread,
Aug 12, 1994, 1:13:28 PM8/12/94
to
Pete Hickey (pe...@mudhead.uottawa.ca) wrote:
[snip]
: Now, when {your favorite stove} owners talk about simmering, are you

: talking about quickly cooking something on low, or a real long slow
: simmer?

[snip]
: -Pete

Simmering revers to a low temperature slow boil, and has nothing to do with
time. You can simmer for hours or minutes. The former being harder than the
latter with a backpacking stove.

ute

Kevin Moore

unread,
Aug 16, 1994, 11:38:29 AM8/16/94
to
In article <32dbdf$g...@ftcnews.scs.ag.gov> u...@wapiti.ftc.scs.ag.gov (Ute R.Willmore) writes:

>When my friend first bought her Whisperlite, it too had some flame control.
>That was on our first trip to Mount Zirkel WA. The next time out, after
>someone else had borrowed her stove, she could not control the flame other
>than ON/OFF. Third time out, she couldn't even keep the stove lit! If
>we had been out for several days this could have been a real problem, but
>this was just along day hike.

Sounds to me like a dirty jet. Use of the pricker supplied with the older
models would have fixed it. Newer models are supposedly self-pricking.
Do your friend's friends have trouble controlling their food?

>I guess the stove could have been damaged when she loaned it out, but I
>would not want a stove that will malfunction after just a few uses and
>one possible misuse. She didn't either and bought the Peak 1 instead.

An expensive way to fix a dirty jet. The stove was not damaged, it just needed
a clean.

>What makes the Peak 1 really nice is the attached fuel tank. It is so
>much faster to get it set up and cooking!

I've used one, and it's a nice enough stove. I've seen them go wrong,
though, and they can't easily be fixed. I'll stick with my veteran
Whisperlight, which, eight years down the track, still has flame control, if
used correctly. Used by amateurs, it affords hours of merry entertainment,
from the fireball that follows heavy handedness while priming with shellite,
to the linguistic triumphs that result from simmering difficulties.

Kevin Moore

k...@ballarat.edu.au

0 new messages