Thermal Pro or Polartec 200?
Andrew
weather. If there is a difference between the two? If so, is it
major?
MLL
"Andrew" <acw...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d9f29261.0401...@posting.google.com...
> Which one is warmer? I just need something for the cold Albany, NY
> weather. If there is a difference between the two? If so, is it
> major?
See
http://www.polartec.com/fabrics/new.php
Thermal pro is very nice. I like it better than plain old 200/300.
However, performance really depends on the quality of the overall garment.
micweb
before, and thought I'd browsed their website pretty thoroughly.
There's always a nugget you miss! :-)
Most interesting (although slightly off-topic here) was that
"PowerShield" is a "membrane sandwich" fabric, which is pretty neat. I
remember years ago there was Activent which was a membrane sandwich
that wasn't as water proof as Goretex, but breathed a lot better. I
think there is a real niche for the "more breathable/less rainproof"
fabrics - in my experience, breathability (or the lack thereof)
becomes a problem a lot faster than "wetting out" or actual water
penetration. In fact, on most of my rainy day hikes I usually just use
a microfiber shell, like the GoLite Bark or the Patagonia Velocity -
truth be told, they don't "breathe" that well either, but they are a
lot more tolerable than Precip and their ilk (if I were sitting around
camp in the rain for hours, though, I might change my preference, but
usually I am on the go on a day hike).
Anyway, I disagree a tad about Thermalpro vs. Polartec 200 or
"Classic." I think the generic Thermalpro is the same as 200, and
REI's endcap signs in their stores, and on their website, come right
out and say that. At first I thought REI was just making up for the
fact that they had heather colors in Thermalpro, and their solid
colors, like black, were old-fashioned "200," but after owning one of
their Thermalpro fleece jackets for a year now, and comparing it to
both 200 garment and "Aircore" from Land's End, I think they are
basically all the same, performance wise. I think the Thermalpro from
REI holds its loft, such as it is, a tad better, that's about all.
That having been said, I have a couple of Patagonia "R2" pieces made
out of Patagonia's proprietary version of Thermalpro, and there IS a
world of difference in these pieces - so I think it's all in the
knitting. The R2 pieces are very "airy" and "lofty", kind of "shaggy".
They breathe a lot better without a shell (or you can say they do much
poorer in a breeze, depending on your point of view), and they
insulate a LOT better under a shell. In fact, I can't wear the R2
around town, it's too hot! But since it compresses so much better than
200 or Thermalpro, it is a great piece for my daypack, or to warm up a
cold sleeping bag. I treated mine with Nikwax, which both helps keep
the loft and sheds water "really excellently." (Without such
treatment, I can't handwash and drip dry, or the loft reduces; if you
machine wash and machine dry, there is never a loss of loft, the
machine drying seems to "re-fluff" it).
Another excellent "Thermalpro" piece is the "Monkey Phur" line from
Mountain Hardware. Essentially, this is R2 style fabric just with a
different name, from Mountain Hardware with their cut/style. I guess
if you don't want to pay full tab for Patagonia, the Mountain Hardware
variant is a good substitute, but these pieces have been hard to find.
I warn you that all of these pieces are downright ugly, there is a
reason Mountain Hardware nicknamed theirs "Monkey Phur."
Anyway, this is all by way of saying, don't get caught by the
"Thermalpro" hype, unless you are buying R2, just stick with 200.
"MLL" <mll...@exnod91.com> wrote in message news:<3ffe01f8$0$89917$> See
Tracer
news:ab78fe5b.04010...@posting.google.com:
> 89917
Well I purchased a Columbia Soft Block Sweater. It's a fleece type jacket
utilizing Polartec 200 Thermal Pro. It was on sale and cheaper than the
other 200 series by Marmot and North Face at the store I was at. I just
need some to keep me warm in Albany and based on apparently inaccurate
information from several sales rep, it appears that thermal pro is at least
as warm as the 200 series. That's all I needed to know, thanks for the
replies!
MLL
"micweb" <will_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ab78fe5b.04010...@posting.google.com...
I don't think Thermalpro is advertised as "warmer", just more durable. I
find all good fleece pretty durable so when I bought an EMS Summit Tech made
of 300wt Thermalpro I was looking at the berber finish, pit zips, zip
pockets, pack reinforcements, etc. I love the jacket and I have to say the
pit zips are one of the best features imaginable...if you like and need a
wide range of ventilation. With a GTX shell it's fantastic.
doc
The Patagonia R2 uses Malden Mills Thermal Pro, which is about as warm as
Polartec 200, but less dense so it is lighter to carry and more
compressible. It is less wind resistant than traditional 200 so should be
used with a shell. It also is easier to quickly vent since air moves
through it better when not shielded by a closed shell.
I really like my Patagonia R2 Vest with Malden Mills Thermal Pro.
Regards,
doc
Chris Townsend
<d...@home.spamfree> writes
>
>The Patagonia R2 uses Malden Mills Thermal Pro, which is about as warm as
>Polartec 200, but less dense so it is lighter to carry and more
>compressible. It is less wind resistant than traditional 200 so should be
>used with a shell. It also is easier to quickly vent since air moves
>through it better when not shielded by a closed shell.
>
>I really like my Patagonia R2 Vest with Malden Mills Thermal Pro.
>
Thermal Pro is a group or family of fabrics not one single type.
Unfortunately Malden Mills don't give separate names to each type of
Thermal Pro. R2 is a high loft Thermal Pro - that is both sides are
raised and fluffy. There are also Thermal Pro fabrics with smooth outers
and fluffy inners and ones with smooth inners and outers (the last are
the ones closest to Polartec 200).
Andy Williams
> doc writes:
I've been reading the group for a month or so and am confused about
these fabrics, including their availability. REI's web site shows
items described as R5 or R.5. I can't find R2 - this may be due to my
inability to navigate their web site. Is the R5/R.5 more recent than
the R2?
I want to have the best gear for the job, of course. The scenario I
will face tomorrow is cutting and loading wood with a North Face
Mountain Light Jacket with the Denali insert/insulation layer. I'll
ignore the lowers for now. This is in New England at about 0° for
four hours. Would the Patagonia fabrics make any difference?
--
Andy Williams
doc
wrote:
Here is Patagonia's R2 Vest, for example:
http://www.patagonia.com/za/PDC?OPTION=PRODUCT&merchant_rn=7385&cgrfnbr=124411&sku=25150&ws=false
Here is a Patagonia R.5 Crew
http://www.patagonia.com/za/PDC?OPTION=PRODUCT&merchant_rn=7385&sku=41620&ws=false
You can read about how Patagonia's "R" system works here:
http://www.patagonia.com/design/regulator/technology.shtml
Be certain to click on the "Description," "Ideal Uses," and "Details" tabs
on each of the first two links to see what the fabric is and how it is used.
Look for fabric weights to get an idea of relative weight and warmth. Keep
in mind that the Thermal Pro fabrics are designed to be less dense, but
higher loft for the weight than traditional fleece such as Polartec 200 or
300. This works well if one uses a wind shell, which I always carry even if
nothing else.
In short, the R.5 (Polartec Powerdry) is a base layer (moderate insulation
with good wicking for high exertion sports). R1 is considered a warmer
version of R.5, R2 (Polartec Thermal Pro) is a high loft insulation layer,
R3 is similar, except it is even warmer than R2. R4 is a Windbloc fleece
fabric (I generally don't care for windbloc fleece due to weight, humidity
build up, and extremely long dry times).
It seams that REI sometimes does not carry certain products from various
brands which might be considered (by REI) to be redundant to their own
branded products. I don't see R2 products being offered at REI either.
The key is to look for "Polartec Thermal Pro" in the correct weight for your
layering system. REI uses this fabric in a few of their own products (I saw
a hat, for example). Thermal Pro is the fabric used by Patagonia for all
the Regulator R2 products I've looked into in detail. R.5 and R1 are made
with different weights of Polartec Powerdry (better wicking), while R2 and
R3 are made from Polartec Thermal Pro. Th R4 actually uses 3 fabrics:
Polartec® Windbloc urethane laminate, Regulator R2 (Polartec Thermal Pro),
and Regulator R1 grid (Polartec Thermal Pro) polyester.
Personally, I just use an REI MTS polyester shirt for my base wicking layer
and put on a microfleece top and/or r2 vest, topped with a Polyester
breathable windshell for most situations.
For your particular situation, i'd likely be comfortable in my REI MTS
polyester shirt, and my Patagonia microfleece LS shirt and Golite Bark
(windshell) with various options for head and handwear which are quick to
change depending on activity. I'd have the R2 Vest available for longer
breaks. I might also have my insulated overboots available if I"m not as
active as I imagine.
Your existing layers can get the job done in comfort for you if you have
appropriate head and hand wear layers to fine tune your insulation. The R2
Pro is nice in that it ventilates easier when you open and fluff your jacket
than does a Malden Mills Classic 300 weight TNF Denali jacket (which I also
have). The R2 is much lighter and packs much smaller, but the warmth of the
R2 is more comparable to 200 weight.
You can learn more about the range of Malden Mills fabrics here:
Classic:
http://www.polartec.com/contentmgr/showdetails.php?id=212
Thermal Pro:
http://www.polartec.com/contentmgr/showdetails.php?id=211
Hope this helps.
Regards,
doc
George Cleveland
wrote:
>Chris Townsend wrote:
Yikes! Thats fairly fancy (re:expensive) stuff for working in the woods.
Cutting and loading wood in freaking cold weather is something I have more
than a little experience with. I would wear the warmest *old* clothes I
had, worn in layers of course (polypro/ester underwear, wool shirt, heavy
wool shirt/jacket, wind blocking layer i.e. an old coat that you don't mind
banging up). You'll probably end up ditching the coat and second wool shirt
if you are working as hard as you should ;^). The abrasion from lifting
trunks and hauling armloads of wood can do major damage to outerwear. Save
the good stuff for afterwards.
g.c.
But of course this will reach you too late, hope it works out.
micweb
better and weighs a little less than 200 variants if you are
backpacking. It is also a little warmer than 200 fleece, but not
enough to justify the considerable extra expense over 200 fleece ($149
vs $40). I recommend 200 fleece from LLBean or Lands End as the best
quality buy for your purposes.
Chris, thanks for clarifying the different surface finishes for
"Thermalpro" that makes much more sense than anything I have seen from
the manufacturers.
I think the "fluffy" R2 is probably less popular for around town wear
because it is the least wind resistant variant...although dynamite
under a shell.
Andy Williams <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:<0v7vvvcok48ukgntl...@4ax.com>...
Andy Williams
> Andy Williams wrote:
> > < cutting and loading wood with a North Face Mountain Light Jacket
> > with the Denali insert/insulation layer. ... in New England at
> > about 0° for four hours. >
> < a short treatise on the Patagonia R system fabrics >
Thanks a million doc, this helps much.
George Cleveland also replied with advice to wear old clothes for this
type of activity. Good advice. I am well acquainted with cutting and
moving wood around, but I really wanted to give the test to the
Mountain Light / Denali combo. I had never worn the Denali before.
For the record, I wore PolarMAX long Johns, Mountain Hardwear Polartec
"sweat pants type" insulation under Mountain Headwear overpants, EMS
techowick shirt, Columbia polyester shirt under the Denali / Mountain
Light. Pac boots, smartwool socks. REI all-season gloves under 100g
Thinsulate gloves.
And I was never cold or uncomfortable on any part of my body, for the
first time in my life. Thanks to the newsgroup over the past few
weeks for the education.
--
Andy Williams
doc
wrote:
>doc wrote:
I do agree with the old clothes thing, if available. I don't really have a
great deal in the way of old winter clothes that are not still in great
shape. I'm glad he thought to mention it. That's a good reminder of
appropriate gear for the task and not just conditions.
The Denali is an awesome beast. For most things it is just too warm for me,
but there have been times, in a blizzard, where it was the "Cats Meow."
Sounds like you had a great layering system. I'm a little surprised if you
were not too warm working with the Denali on, even if it was open.
Glad it all worked out for you.
Regards,
doc
Bill Tuthill
>
> In short, the R.5 (Polartec Powerdry) is a base layer (moderate insulation
> with good wicking for high exertion sports).
LL Bean sells a nicely tailored range of PowerDry undergarments for less
than Patagonia, $29.50 to $40 for various pants, crewneck, or Zip-T.
> Personally, I just use a [polyester] shirt for my base wicking layer
> and put on a microfleece top and/or r2 vest, topped with a polyester
> breathable windshell for most situations.
Where did you find a polyester breathable windshell? Seems like the
outdoor industry is currently trying to sell us "stretch psuedoGoretex"
for prices above $250 or $300. Given my many bad experiences with the
durability of Lycra, stretch is the *last* thing I want. Most current
Goretex (or equivalent) parkas are overtailored and too heavy/large
for use as a simple windshell.
Thanks for all the good info, Doc.
doc
wrote:
Golite used to sell a "Bark" Jacket. I've been looking for something
similar as a gift for someone I know. The hood is what is rare on this type
of jacket now. My best choices seem to be 1) Golite Harmony (no hood,
silicon encapsulated EPIC fabric which is supposedly breathable because
fibers are costed, instead of fabric being coated), 2) Marmot Chinook (might
not be wind resistant enough, but has hood), and a few similar compromises.
I have not located an ideal substitute, and 3) a few offerings from
Patagonia that offer even more compromises to what I seek. However, you can
still get the Women's Bark (S/M/L) at a pretty good deal ($19) at
http://www.northernmountain.com/NMSMain.asp?Option=Detail&ID=WGOLITE+Bark+Jacket%2C+02&Dept=CW&Cat=CW2&SubCat=CW22
If you don't mind alternative, light fabric, anorak cut, or no-hood jacket
style, check out the three manufacturers that I mention. You might find the
one that will suit you. I think I'd try the Chinook if I had to choose one
of the current crop. It might be more wind resistant than I fear. My
current Golite is bomber in that regard.
You are welcome. Glad to help.
Regards,
doc
Gary S.
>Golite used to sell a "Bark" Jacket. I've been looking for something
>similar as a gift for someone I know. The hood is what is rare on this type
>of jacket now. My best choices seem to be 1) Golite Harmony (no hood,
>silicon encapsulated EPIC fabric which is supposedly breathable because
>fibers are costed, instead of fabric being coated), 2) Marmot Chinook (might
>not be wind resistant enough, but has hood), and a few similar compromises.
>I have not located an ideal substitute, and 3) a few offerings from
>Patagonia that offer even more compromises to what I seek. However, you can
>still get the Women's Bark (S/M/L) at a pretty good deal ($19) at
>http://www.northernmountain.com/NMSMain.asp?Option=Detail&ID=WGOLITE+Bark+Jacket%2C+02&Dept=CW&Cat=CW2&SubCat=CW22
>
>If you don't mind alternative, light fabric, anorak cut, or no-hood jacket
>style, check out the three manufacturers that I mention. You might find the
>one that will suit you. I think I'd try the Chinook if I had to choose one
>of the current crop. It might be more wind resistant than I fear. My
>current Golite is bomber in that regard.
>
You might take a look at this as well:
http://www.wildthingsgear.com/windshirt.html
NH manufacturer with a serious focus on lightweight gear for alpine
climbers.
Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence
Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom
Chris Townsend
<d...@home.spamfree> writes
What about the GoLite Flow? 9 ounces (Men's Large) with a hood. Was made
from EPIC, now made from Toray ripstop nylon, which is slightly more
breathable but not as rain resistant. The performance is comparable to
the Bark.
doc
Ooops! I meant "...less wind resistant..." regarding the Chinook.
Regards,
doc
doc
Beautiful. I would consider this windshirt strongly if I had a need. I
might try one for that gift I mentioned. Do you know if the EPIC fabric is
as breathable and has the a similar comfort range as an uncoated, untreated
nylon or polyester top (such as Golite Trunk or Bark).
Regards,
doc
doc
The Flow is available at
http://www.golite.co.uk/scstore/scstore/product_categories/products/flow_w.html,
part of their UK site. I cant find it on the US site at all. Funny. But,
yes, that looks almost ideal!
Thanks!
Regards,
doc
doc
<Ch...@DELETEauchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
OMG, Golite UK still has the Bark too!
Regards,
doc
Chris Townsend
this spring. Maybe they've sold out of the EPIC one in the US. Having
tried both I'd go for the ripstop nylon if breathability is the main
criteria, the EPIC one if water resistance matters most. I'd say the
ripstop nylon one was closest to the Bark in performance.
A shame the Bark has gone though. It's a nice simple design that works
well.
Chris Townsend
looking somewhere else?
The ripstop Flow is listed in the Spring 2003 Workbook.
doc
<Ch...@DELETEauchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Here it is:
http://www.golite.co.uk/scstore/scstore/product_categories/products/bark.html
I e-mailed them to ask about shipping to the U.S.
Ah, I do not have a UK 2003 Workbook.
Regards,
doc
doc
<Ch...@DELETEauchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
I hope you are correct. I'd love to get another Bark-like jacket.
Regards,
doc
Chris Townsend
Now that is bizarre. You are looking at a different site to the one I
get at http://www.golite.com/GoLiteUK - which is the URL when I click on
http://www.golite.co.uk and then on Men's Clothing.
The site I get doesn't include the Bark and doesn't have the men's
clothing listed in categories. But when I click on your link I get the
categories and the Bark page. However if I then click on the Union Jack
flag at the bottom of the Bark page and then click on Men's Clothing I
get the page without the Bark.
I'm not sure what's going on here. I'll email GoLite and ask them.
>
>I e-mailed them to ask about shipping to the U.S.
>
>Ah, I do not have a UK 2003 Workbook.
Sorry, that should have been 2004 Workbook.
>
micweb
doesn't have the "short front/long tail" syndrome of some similar
windshirts that are aimed at cyclists, it comes down below the waist,
which is great for hiking (compared to "climbing cut" jackets that pop
up over the belly button - good for harness but not for regular wear).
Plus it has a small chest pocket and a hood.
The Bark is made from Silmond, which is a fabric adapated from cycling
performance gear. It is thin, silky, and naturally water repellent, on
top of which it has a very good DWR treatment.
REI has an OXT jacket which is also, as far as I can tell, also made
from Silmond, though REI doesn't state as much, and it is a distant
cousin to the Bark. It is light, silky, and water repellent, but has
no hood, and the pockets are mesh lined so vulnerable to wear from
keys (as opposed to the Bark, which has pockets made of the same
Silmond fabric). The OXT is on closeout at REI:
In store prices are the same, and you may find more sizes.
I also like the Velocity jacket from Patagonia, but it is pricey, and
tends to "rustle" and "crinkle" more. It has no hood. The new
Dragonfly from Patagonia, now with a full zip, is supposed to be less
"rustly" and "crinkly" and also less transparent, but it is, of
course, pricey. It does have a hood and is claimed by Patagonia to be
more breathable.
The Scirocco from Marmot is the Schoeller-type fabric which is LESS
windresistant. No hood, cyclist cut (short in front, long in back).
The CHINOOK on the other hand is VERY wind resistant, being made from
a fabric similar to, but not quite as good as, the Patagonia
Dragonfly. It is $35 cheaper (but still pricey at $99) with a full
zip, but no hood.
I bought two Barks, on closeout for $39 for myself, and one for my
wife. It is obviously the perfect intersection of value and features.
For budget use in a working environment, the Starter line of wind
jackets from WalMart is surprisingly functional.
Bill Tuthill
>
> Here it is:
> http://www.golite.co.uk/scstore/scstore/product_categories/products/bark.html
> I e-mailed them to ask about shipping to the U.S.
Please let us know what they say about shipping to the US. The Bark costs
only £59 versus £119 for the Flow, and comes in red! Flow colors are boring.
The Bark hood looks like it might fit over a ski helmet. Are the arms cut
long enough, or must I buy one size larger for arm-flailing activities?
> 8 oz. EPIC windshirt
> http://www.wildthingsgear.com/windshirt.html
This comes in red also! Although it would probably be less breathable
but more water-resistant than the Bark. Nice company! Price is missing,
although their similar non-hooded Nylon Windshirt is only $45.
The LL Bean outdoors catalog shows the $89 Ridge Runner jacket, made of
"H2OFF microfiber" polyester, which might be similar to the fabric used
for the Bark. They claim it is more breathable then 1-ply Supplex nylon.
Tall size is available in red, but the hood folds into the collar, yuck.
Currently on sale for $55.
doc
<Ch...@DELETEauchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Very odd. I wonder what's up.
doc
doc
wrote:
>doc <d...@home.spamfree> wrote:
Shipping for the Bark is Euro 40 for two jackets.
The EPIC fabric won't be comfortable for me to use for bugs in high heat and
high exertion if its not as breathable as the Barks polyester weave.
The LL Bean you mention is not available in XL. They only have one color of
L still available. Nice price. Looks good.
Regards,
doc
doc
I think the best for me is another Bark, even if imported. The Patagonia
full zip Dragonfly and the Marmot Chinook are very close in features and
have a lighter weight that is very tempting. I'd miss the two lower pockets
that the Bark has, though.
Thanks for the info. The new version of the Dragonfly was unknown to me.
Regards,
doc
Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
> Which one is warmer? I just need something for the cold Albany, NY
> weather. If there is a difference between the two? If so, is it
> major?
I like Medalist's X-Static for the really cold stuff, and medium
weight Polartec for shorter snowshoeing trips. The major requirements
are non-absorbent synthetic fabric and an ability to dissipate
perspiration. You can find some great base layers at www.medalist.com
(including one of my reviews of their Tek-1 base layer).
Len McDougall, author of the books: The Log Cabin: An Adventure in
Individualism, Self-Reliance, and Cabin Building, The Complete
Tracker, The Field & Stream Wilderness Survival Handbook, The Snowshoe
Handbook, Practical Outdoor Projects, The Outdoors Almanac, Made for
the Outdoors, Practical Outdoor Survival
http://groups.msn.com/TimberwolfWildernessAdventures/home