Butane fuel on airplanes
Rob
butane canisters (for a stove) on an airplane? Does it matter whether it is
a domestic / international flight? Thanks!
Rob
Bark
fuel cartridges and sometimes empty feul bottles are not allowed on planes.
Even stoves are sometimes turned away. You are aware that butane canisters
are potential grenades in this situation? Remember the F in FAA means
Federal. Suggest planning ahead to buy one at destination.
Trailgalore
Rob wrote in message ...
>Does anyone happen to know the legal details regarding the transportion of
>butane canisters (for a stove) on an airplane? Does it matter whether it is
>a domestic / international flight? Thanks!
Details - Don't even try! Even regular Post Office ship is required to be
id'd on outside package
Gary S.
>Does anyone happen to know the legal details regarding the transportion of
>butane canisters (for a stove) on an airplane? Does it matter whether it is
>a domestic / international flight? Thanks!
>
Bringing fuel of any type is very illegal and potentially dangerous.
Depending on the airline, and how the staff you are dealing with
interpret the rules, things like empty fuel bottles and used stoves
(even if drained and aired out) are also prohibited.
And yes, I know that cigarette lighters are allowed.
Choose a stove with a detachable fuel container, and pick up
cartridges and fuel at your destination. Plan ahead to make sure you
have a reliable source of the right kind of fuel at your destination.
Happy trails,
Gary
------------------------------------------------
I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately... HDT
Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom
Eugene Miya
stove into the passenger section of the plane. The plane went up, the
bottle leaked, someone smelled it, the plane did an emergency landing,
a haz mat team went through the plane, the woman got fined and had to
pay for the hazmat clean up costs. Several $K. Not clear how many
people were on the plane.
Rob
The reason I ask is that I have purchased a "classic" model Primus stove
that requires, to the best of my knowledge, Primus fuel canisters. I'll be
taking it on several trips abroad, first to Peru this summer. Given the
amount of backpacker traffic and the substantial tourist industry there, I
can only imagine that these are available (Primus being a popular brand) but
I can't be sure. I'm told Gaz equipment is more common. Does anyone happen
to have any experience purchasing Primus fuel in South America? Elsewhere?
Rob
Bob Gross
>... the woman got fined and had to
>pay for the hazmat clean up costs. Several $K.
It is probably the same airline that will not let me run my
little handheld GPS receiver in the window. Note that a majority
of the airlined do allow it.
---Bob Gross---
Eugene Miya
Bob Gross <75013...@CompuServe.COM> writes:
>Eugene Miya wrote:
actualy, I was just paraphrasing the Murky, might be fineable on their
web site.
>>... the woman got fined and had to
>>pay for the hazmat clean up costs. Several $K.
>
>Yup. That is the fine for stupidity these days.
Could have been worse.
>It is probably the same airline that will not let me run my
>little handheld GPS receiver in the window. Note that a majority
>of the airlined do allow it.
Airlines largely do what they want.
Your other option is to learn to fly a plane yourself.
Bob Gross
>Airlines largely do what they want.
>Your other option is to learn to fly a plane yourself.
also
Airline pilots do largely what the Flight Ops book tells them.
---Bob Gross---
Gary S.
wrote:
The interpretation of FAA rules is what varies so much. Airline to
airlline, airport to airport, boarding clerk to boarding clerk, and
day to day, there is a wide range of how this rule is implemented and
how it affects the traveler.
It is also hard to get accurate info ahead of time from an airline on
issues like used stoves with no fuel, empty fuel bottles, etc. You can
plan ahead and still get a surprise when boarding, because nothing is
avaialable in writing.
Eugene Miya
>On 24 Mar 2000 04:17:36 GMT, Bob Gross <75013...@CompuServe.COM>
>wrote:
>>Eugene Miya wrote:
>>>Airlines largely do what they want.
>>>Your other option is to learn to fly a plane yourself.
>>
>>Airlines do largely what the FAA tells them to do.
The FAA does not tell the pilot how to fly the plane.
That's left to the pilot. What you say is true if open to interpretation.
But the question is where the inputs to the FAA come from.
>> also
>>Airline pilots do largely what the Flight Ops book tells them.
That's changed a lot, and it likely to change more in the years to come.
The recently crash of AK 261 where the pilots spent half an hour talking
with Seattle illustrated that. That's why flying (and climbing and
other activities) are more than that's in books.
>The interpretation of FAA rules is what varies so much. Airline to
>airline, airport to airport, boarding clerk to boarding clerk, and
>day to day, there is a wide range of how this rule is implemented and
>how it affects the traveler.
This is the problem.
>It is also hard to get accurate info ahead of time from an airline on
>issues like used stoves with no fuel, empty fuel bottles, etc. You can
>plan ahead and still get a surprise when boarding, because nothing is
>available in writing.
You got that.
Eugene Miya
Bob Gross <75013...@CompuServe.COM> writes:
>Airlines do largely what the FAA tells them to do.
The superb pilot is best defined as the pilot who uses
his superb decisions to avoid situations in which
he has to use his superb skills. --Dick Rutan
Wyvern75
you are breathing oxygen from a bottle prescribed by a Doctor, you can't bring
your own onboard. You have to buy specialized oxygen bottles from the
airline.
It is also illegal to put matches, lighters, fuel, etc. in you luggage (even
an empty stove that may have had fuel), as not all baggage compartments are
pressurized.
If you go to any of the airline web sites they will have a list of things that
are not allowed in your baggage.
Rob wrote:
> Does anyone happen to know the legal details regarding the transportion of
> butane canisters (for a stove) on an airplane? Does it matter whether it is
> a domestic / international flight? Thanks!
>
> Rob
ahi...@my-deja.com
> > Does anyone happen to know the legal details regarding the
transportion of
> > butane canisters (for a stove) on an airplane? Does it matter
whether it is
> > a domestic / international flight? Thanks!
When I researched this issue four years ago with the FAA and the US
Department of Transportation's Office of Hazardous Materials Standards,
what I discovered was this. The FAA sets the guidelines, but it is up
to the airlines to determine how they will best meet those guidelines.
Further, the airport terminals themselves are also allowed to set their
own guidelines about how best to meet the requirements. What has
resulted is a complete "mish mash" of rules that vary across the
country. One airline may be more lenient, another may not. One
terminal may be more leninet, another may not. So travelling with a
stove turns into a complete "dice roll".
At the request of the American Hiking Society, I turned over all my
research material to them, and it now forms the basis for information
they present on their "stove story" submission page at
http://www.americanhiking.org/policy/issues/issmonth.html At the time,
I was able to interest John Viehman of Backpacker Magazine in combining
forces with AHS in bringing this issue to light. Unfortunately, there
were more pressing trail issues being faced by AHS at the time, and the
stoves issue was never pursued.
Since that time, I have continually encouraged both Dave Lillard (Ex.
Dir. of AHS) and Mary Margaret Sloane (AHS VP) to pursue this issue and
develop a sensible - and more important - SAFE solution. Now it seems
the interest is there.
So what about stove safety anyway? Is a gasoline stove that has been
"burned dry" of fuel unsafe on an airline? My initial answer to that is
"NO", for a number of reasons.
First, if a gasoline backpacking stove leaked, then it would soak the
gear in your pack. Have you ever seen what white gas does to
synthetics? Sometimes they "decompose" when subjected to gas - and
certainly become quite flamable. So the question is, if a backpacking
stove "leaks", then why aren't thousands of backpackers walking around
in flammable clothing? The answer is, they aren't, because stoves are
designed NOT to leak, and carry fuel safely.
Second, the pressures subjected to a backpacking stove tank when you
pump it to pressurize the fuel is many atmospheres greater than what it
will ever be subjected to in the hold of an airline. Now if your stove
leaked at 32,000 feet in the hold of an airline, would you feel safe
giving the tank 30 pumps to pressurize the fuel? I think not.
Gasoline backpacking stoves are specifically designed to carry fuel
safely, whether in the backcountry or in the hold of an aircraft. If a
stove has been "burned dry" with only a small amount of fuel residue,
are the chances great that it will "leak" at 30,000 feet, buried inside
your backpack and luggage? Again, I think not.
Okay, reality says that some idiot might not seal the tank tight on his
stove before he checks it into baggage. Let's face it, if it's possible
it could happen, sooner or later it probably will. Fine, why don't
airlines provide a simple vapor-proof container that you can load your
drained stove into at the terminal? That would provide a safe means of
transporting the stove at virtually NO risk to passengers. Doesn't this
seem like one possible solution to the problem?
Butane and other pressurized gases are another story. I would not
recommend that anyone carry pressurized cartridges on an airline -
period. OTHO, stoves that burn either unleaded gas or white gas - that
have been "burned dry" before packing, and then sealed in the airline's
vapor-proof container, would seem to be workable.
In any case, I think everyone might agree this is "an issue" worthy of
discussion, and development of a potential SAFE solution. That's why I
encourage you to submit your stories to AHS. Fifteen years ago, I NEVER
had a problem transporting my stove. Now it's a dice roll. The thing
that irks me is that there is absolutely NO record of any airline being
destroyed by a leaking backpacking stove. With a good solution
available to backpackers, there probably never will be.
The key thing to remember is this. With NO current solution on the
books, there are probably countless backpackers and outdoorspeople out
there who are transporting their stoves anyway. Wouldn't you feel SAFER
if a consistent method existed to transport these stoves??
Andy Hiltz
patc.net
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Bob Gross
poster only asked about butane fuel on airplanes. You extended
that to liquid gas fuel also.
I think that you might find it is two separate arguments. The
dangers of butane and "white gas" are kind of different, although
I do understand the similarities.
When we flew to South America for a climbing expedition, we took
new MSR XGK stoves with the factory label in place. We took new
empty fuel bottles. All of that was buried deep in the duffle
bags, so when United asked if I had any stoves or flammable
items, I responded "No, I don't have any flammable items at all."
After the climb was over, we got rid of all excess fuel, purged
the stoves completely, ran rubbing alcohol through, then aired
them for a day before returning on an airliner. There was no
danger at all, and United in Chile never asked, anyway.
---Bob Gross---
rick++
due to artificial noses, really micro-chromatographs completely
micro-machined in on a silicon chip, just like an electronic circuit.
Such devices are approaching the hundred dollar range and could be
as ubiquitous as smoke detectors.
Matthew J. Houser
> Fifteen years ago, I NEVER
> had a problem transporting my stove. Now it's a dice roll. The thing
> that irks me is that there is absolutely NO record of any airline being
> destroyed by a leaking backpacking stove. With a good solution
> available to backpackers, there probably never will be.
My guess is that the problem started a few years ago when the ValueJet
plane crashed in the Everglades, killing everyone on board. The crash
was caused by an explosion in the cargo hold. The culprit: compressed
gas canisters. But, like usual the airlines over-react. The canisters
were oxygen canisters that were being carried as cargo, not luggage from
any passenger. Furthermore, ValueJet was carrying them improperly.
Since that time there have been convictions and sentences for the cargo
company that was shipping the canisters through ValueJet (and perhaps
even ValueJet execs, I'm not sure). But there has not been a change in
policy to reflect the true facts in this case: passengers were not the
cause.
I'm with the rest of you. We need a stardard, safe solution to
illogical, irrational policies. I haven't even tried to carry my stove
because of the horror stories I have heard and because I can't afford to
buy new stoves everytime I fly somewhere.
hazmatt
Andy
plane crashed in the Everglades, killing everyone on board. The crash
was caused by an explosion in the cargo hold. The culprit: compressed
gas canisters. >>
Actually, and correct me if I'm wrong, bu those canisters didn't contain
"compressed gas". I believe those oxygen generators are actually a solid, which
when burned produce O2. They are actually also responsible for the fire on
board the MIR space station in 1997, although the configuration is somewhat
different from what they use on the airlines.
Andy
These are my opinions and I couldn't care less if my employers disagree