.44 mag 240gr. XTP sufficient bear medicine??
Robert Root
haven't shot anything bigger than a rabbit with that particular load, but
it seems like a good bet for defense against any critters likely to be
found in the lower 48.
Regards,
Rob Root
Daniel W. Hoechst
: Has anybody out there shot a bear with Hornady's 240gr. XTP load? I
: it seems like a good bet for defense against any critters likely to be
: found in the lower 48.
I'm confused, are you going hunting or just want defense? I don't know
anything about hunting, but I do know about hiking in bear country. Common
sense is a much better defense than any gun. You can easily avoid bears
using common sense practices. I have never been much of an advocate of
guns in the wilderness.
--
/\Daniel W. Hoechst/\ |"let the river take it all away
/ \/\ /\ /\ _/ \ |the mad pace, the hurry
/ \ / \/ \/ \ |the troubles, the worries
Georgia Tech Station |just let the river take them all away
Box 332030 |flow away"
Atlanta Georgia, 30332 | -- Natalie Merchant
gt2...@prism.gatech.edu |
Greg Mushial
> Has anybody out there shot a bear with Hornady's 240gr. XTP load? I
>haven't shot anything bigger than a rabbit with that particular load, but
>it seems like a good bet for defense against any critters likely to be
>found in the lower 48.
>
>
>Rob Root
>
>
>
Rob - you have to understand: rec.backcountry is a very PC group - if you're
looking for *informed* answers on said topic you'd be better off in one of
the rec.guns groups... here you're just going to become a flame catcher...
w/re your question: yes people hunt bear w/ said round, but usually with very
carefully placed shots and with someone with a 458 win mag just behind them
just in case... in a defense situation you're more likely to just piss off
the bear and then you have major problem on your hands.
the xtp tends to open very quickly, ie, on the bear's outer fat layer,
leaving a wounded and very unhappy bear. if you *must* shoot bears... think
at least twice about it... and then use something less expanding, more of a
thumper round/bullet: 444 marlin w/ 240 gr *jsp* or a barnes 265 solid.
if your concern is defense in the backcountry: I suspect your biggest
problems (will) come from two legger animals, then almost anything >> then
a 22lr will do...
on the otherhand, as someone who has spent >> 1000 nights out over some 30
years and has survived happily with only my right arm and 2kg stones... I
wonder if you're not being a little paranoid? think about it - the use of
deadly force in this country can leave you in jail for lots of years...
=g
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
+-----+
Greg Mushial g...@Slac.Stanford.Edu | |
SLAC, MS 97 | |
2575 Sand Hill Rd | |
Menlo Park, CA 94025 (415) 926.3772 ---------> \ \
\ \
"No government governs like no government" and/or \_____|
"Life begins at 10,000 feet; living at 20,000 feet"
--- And of course, my opinions are my own and surely not my employer's --------
Nate
Robert Root (Rober...@om.cv.hp.com) wrote:
: Has anybody out there shot a bear with Hornady's 240gr. XTP load? I
: haven't shot anything bigger than a rabbit with that particular load, but
: it seems like a good bet for defense against any critters likely to be
: found in the lower 48.
Tell me this is flame bait! Are there really people out there who are this
stupid and alienated? I'll bet you would leave quite a sign of your passing.
If you are so worried about bears, and have this attitude, maybe you should
just stay out of the backcountry until you are ready.
--
Nathanial Beckwith (H) 698-5917 - St. Paul, MN
University of Minnesota (W) 625-7559 - ME 308 Computer Lab
Mechanical and Industrial Engineering-Operations Research
http://www.umn.edu/nlhome/m056/beck0238/
Paul R Kennedy
well know a great deal about both. The two "experts" I know stand on
either side of the fence. One says you can avoid most all bear
encounters - although he qualifys that by saying that west of the
Mississippi that may be different.
They other says that you can avaiod them - or rather they you UNLESS
they have been desensitized to humans. He says he would carry a hand
gun in the back country in some places although he wonders IF anyone
could get a shot at a charging bear - as according to him they usually
only attack when they are suprized or have cubs.
So what does this all mean. Hell, if I know?
I would be interested in seeing a REASONABLE and informed discussion
about it HERE in this "PC" group.
My $.02 - standard disclaimer.
Paul
Mike Humphrys
> Has anybody out there shot a bear with Hornady's 240gr. XTP load? I
>haven't shot anything bigger than a rabbit with that particular load, but
>it seems like a good bet for defense against any critters likely to be
>found in the lower 48.
>Regards,
>Rob Root
1st question: 44 rifle or 44 revolver? I have shot both, and can tell you that
the pistol can be loaded hotter that the rifle. Since we can't pack sidearms in
the bush here in Kanada (exc. freeminers and geologists, with permits), I have
had to limit my experimentation to the range. I always pack my .30-30 on
wilderness trips, and have never had to use it once. On hunting trips, that is
another story <g>. I have only had to shoot ol' Bruin once, and this one was a
very dangerous one: not afraid of people, campfires, being shot at, etc. I
always get a tag for bear, just in case, and this was the first time I actually
had to use it. The meat, BTW, was to die for!! The bear had about 2" of fat on
his back, so he was ready for a good winter. I now am the proud posessor of 4
qt. of primo bear grease!!
Anyway, back to the question. I would prefer a .454 for bear (3/4 load) with
about a 300g Nosler ballistic tip-type. A .44, unless 300g and top-loaded
(ouch), is not as effective as a long gun cartridge.
Keep safe,
Mike
David Paul
>
> Has anybody out there shot a bear with Hornady's 240gr. XTP load? I
>haven't shot anything bigger than a rabbit with that particular load, but
>it seems like a good bet for defense against any critters likely to be
>found in the lower 48.
>
1. Most people who cary firearms in the backcountry do so to protect
themselves from two legged critters.
2. Why would you shoot a rabbit with a .44 mag? Unless you hit it in the
head of front quarters, there wouldn't be much meat left.
Abe D. Lockman
> Daniel W. Hoechst wrote:
>
> Robert Root (Rober...@om.cv.hp.com) wrote:
> : Has anybody out there shot a bear with Hornady's 240gr. XTP load? I
> : haven't shot anything bigger than a rabbit with that particular load, but
> : it seems like a good bet for defense against any critters likely to be
> : found in the lower 48.
>
> Tell me this is flame bait! Are there really people out there who are this
> stupid and alienated? I'll bet you would leave quite a sign of your
passing.
> If you are so worried about bears, and have this attitude, maybe you should
> just stay out of the backcountry until you are ready.
Nate, not everyone in the world is as politically constipated as you seem
to be. Use some imagination. The ones originally in the "backcountry"
were hunters, trappers, prospectors, etc., long before designated sections
were set up as parks with marked trails, nature walks, designated
campgrounds, and peace officer patrolling to make it safe enough for your
sort to complain about their thermarest sliding.
adl
cyli
>
> Daniel W. Hoechst wrote:
>
> Robert Root (Rober...@om.cv.hp.com) wrote:
> : Has anybody out there shot a bear with Hornady's 240gr. XTP load? I
> : haven't shot anything bigger than a rabbit with that particular load, but
> : it seems like a good bet for defense against any critters likely to be
> : found in the lower 48.
>
> Tell me this is flame bait! Are there really people out there who are this
> stupid and alienated? I'll bet you would leave quite a sign of your passing.
> If you are so worried about bears, and have this attitude, maybe you should
> just stay out of the backcountry until you are ready.
> Nathanial Beckwith (H) 698-5917 - St. Paul, MN
> University of Minnesota (W) 625-7559 - ME 308 Computer Lab
> Mechanical and Industrial Engineering-Operations Research
> http://www.umn.edu/nlhome/m056/beck0238/
and worried? People who haven't been out there much and have only
heard stories calculated to make good tales just plain DON'T KNOW.
They've never camped for 8 years, as I have, in at least minor bear
territory and never seen more than footprints, scratch marks, and
rubbing trees. They've never done the more backwoods stuff that most
of you have and found out how hard it can be to see anything other
than birds wild.
Oops. I take that back. I did once see bears up by the Namekagon. I
was hiking out from a car I'd left in sugar sand and saw three or more
across the valley. Where they'd appearently spent the afternoon
eathing berries and watching unaware me try to dig out a Taurus.
They'd been within about a half a block to a block of me for some time.
And I never knew. Which is the fate of the chain smoking non attention
paying type.
Cyli
cyli
>
> Has anybody out there shot a bear with Hornady's 240gr. XTP load? I
> haven't shot anything bigger than a rabbit with that particular load, but
> it seems like a good bet for defense against any critters likely to be
> found in the lower 48.
>
>
> Rob Root
>
>
There's been a long discussion about sprays either here or on the
hunting newsgroup where it's been generally agreed that you've got
a better chance against even grizzlies with pepper spray than with
a gun or mace. But some of that has involved the ethics of dropping
in uninvited on the wild creatures and there's been some disagreement
about pepper spray. Some are (bad pun alert) sticking to their guns.
Cyli
Greg Rose
On Thu, 9 Nov 1995, Robert Root wrote:
>
> > <snip>
> >If you must, carry a shotgun. It's more of an all purpose weapon.
> >In a panic situation it is hard enough to control your shot, with
> >a pistol I'd say you're as likely to shoot your buddy as whatever
> >it is you're aiming at.
> >
> >greg rose
>
>
> Hi,
>
> Do you load the shotgun with slugs? It seems shot wouldn't penetrate
> the thick hide, fat and bones of a bear do do damage.
Alternate slugs and double odd buck. At close range the double odd
buck has plenty of penetrative power.
greg rose
NeMeSiS
This is Verbal Masturbation. Talk about something else. This is why
most of us Hate newsgroups. Cause every thread leads to a new circle
j*rk between two people who should be HAVING their little tiff on their
own "channel".
Mike Humphrys
>Anyone who shoots rabbits with a .44 magnum is one or two sausages short
>of a McBreakfast.
That situation would be directly dependant on what firearm you were carrying at
the time. If you are out hunting deer and a rabbit comes into view, you don't
ask the rabbit to hold that pose while you make the trek back to camp to get
your .22. As my father-in-law said: "shoot the geese while they're flying".
Mike
"shooter of rabbits with a .308" - "ya don't have ta gut th' rabbit then!!"
Tom DeLosh
>For krissakes do you want to start a war in the bush? I have spend
>much time in the remote outdoors, never much worried about bears,
>but gun-happy idiots>give me the creeps,
>Olaf
Hey wait-a-minute! This guy is getting a little too close to the
truth and I think we should let him in on the biggest secret of
the 20th century: Turns out, guns really DO destabilize people. So
much so that the 70 Million U.S. gun owners have shot and killed
the remaining 180 Million inhabitants of that once-great country.
As you can imagine, covering up such a crime is A LOT of work.
70 Million posing as 250 Million is a triple-overtime logistic
nightmare. Impersonating the late/great PC-types is especially
difficult. NRA spokesperson Charlton Heston plays the part of
California Senator Barbara Boxer and long-time gun owner and actor
Joe Pesci plays California Senator Diane Feinstein.
OK, I'll keep it in talk.politics.guns from now on. And I really
mean it this time.
-TD
Olaf Henny
Hi Rob:
I tried to send you the attached by e-mail, but it came back twice, therefore
here it is, on the board:
BEGIN --- CUT HERE --- Cut Here --- cut here ---
Hi Rob:
While we are still on 'speaking terms', I would like to take this opportunity to
answer your posting on snowshoes, which I found, while looking for 'the
second post on the subject'.
>I'd appreciate snowshoe opinions. Will be used for mountaineering
>approaches and general touring. Pack and person weight up to 240 lbs. No
>brand preferences. Want the best.
>
My experience on snowshoes is work related, and includes prospecting, claim
staking and survey in the rugged mountain wilderness of British Columbia,
Canada. These activities represent a much higher degree of challenge to the
snowshoer, than hunting, trapping or backpacking, since you have to go where
the compass points, including through the densest bush and up the steepest
hillsides. There is no such thing as detouring the difficult spots, since you
have to prove your line by blazing the trees you pass. In dense bush that could
mean a blaze every 10 to 15 feet.
My favourite type for this work are Hudson Bay style (long, narrower than the
bear paws with pointed upward curled front.) They thread easier through the
brush because of their pointed tips and their narrower shape. Their fronts also
do not get caught as easily under snow and obstacles, because the point
upward. Of course, if you walk around on lakes or logging roads anything will
do, but even there with the Hudson Bays you do not have to 'lean backward' in
order not to get you fronts caught under the snow. In certain conditions of
very cold fresh snow you can sink up to a foot into it despite your snowshoes.
Just as important as the snowshoes themselves are the harnesses. The tie-
harnesses have the bad habit of forming ice lumps, which pull any bow loops
open. Buckles ice up, and when you want to undo them, with your then
probably very cold fingers, you have a major problem. > ;-) When winter
camping, bear paws have a distinct advantage here, since they fit more easily
into your sleeping bag. ;-) <
Your best bet is anything you can rig with rubber bands derived from cutting
across car or truck inner tubes. The most important points are:
- It must connect your boot firmly to the snowshoe
- The heel should have enough freedom to lift at lest 3 inches up from the
snowshoe
- The arrangement should be strictly limited to stretch-and-slip-in; positively
no knots to tie.
Ice cannot cling to rubber, and can therefore not impede the putting on and
removal of your snowshoes (your cold hands still can though).
I would suggest, that you get yourself the Hudson Bays, discard the harness,
that is on there (if any), get a supply of rubber loops, and your boots, and
experiment. A slip-under rubber toe hold is a good way to start. Then when
you have a working harness, and go in the bush, keep your eyes open for
professionals with rubber harnesses. They have probably come up with
something simpler than you, which they will be pleased to let you copy.
Okay, now comes the hard part ;
>Subject: Re: .44 mag 240gr. XTP sufficient bear medicine??
I am appalled at the rambo-type adolescent terminology used in this subject
line. The "I am going into the bear's home and give him some of my
medicine, and hope it is strong enough" approach, that has me completely
disgusted. The very few times, I have knowingly encountered bears in the
bush, we have both minded our own business, which included quitely blazing
my line toward and past the bear, and parted peacefully. I am quite sure, that
bears have noticed me many more times, than I noticed them, and these
encounters obviously ended also without problems. When I was aware of the
bear, I behaved as if I was not. I did not stare at them (an act of challenge),
nor did I act startled, although my adrenalin was racing. I accepted the bear as
part of the environment I was working in. As a matter of fact I have never
ever met anybody who has been mauled by a bear, but I have met people who
have been shot at and at one occasion have been shot at myself. Fortunately or
unfortunately these gun toting idiots took sound shots and missed. Most of the
time my work was in the deep bush, where those Tom Mixes could not be
found.
>Olaf,
>
>Please read my second post on the subject. I hate to disappoint the
>anti-gun extremists in the world, but I am hardly a "gun happy idiot".
>Much of my spare time IS spent at the range practicing for small-bore
>prone shooting. My wife's name is Gail, my cat's name is Maggie (an
>adorable little tabby), our bird's name is Eli. My wife and I never fail
>to say hello on the trail. If we met you on the trail, Olaf, we might
>even offer you a taste of the 20 year-old single malt we carry.
I am quite sure you would and saying hello or making any other kind of noise
usually serves quite well to save you and the bears a lot of grieve. The sow
has then plenty notice, that you are coming and can get the cubs to safety long
before you arrive.
>Think before you write.
I did, and that brought me to the conclusion, that this rambo does not need
instruction on more appropriate weaponry to give a bear his "medicine" more
effectively.
I suppose somebody like you might call me an anti-gun-fanatic. Yes, I have
never carried a gun and neither do the vast majority of your freeminers and
geologists. Why? I am thinking:
- I have never felt threatened or afraid enough to do so.
- Every *DAY* in America fifteen children are killed by guns the vast
majority of them by guns kept in the home. That is well over 5,000 per
year. Given the probability, that even the most careless gun owners would
only have a coincidence of one in twenty years, that would mean, that there
are at least 100,000 men or women out there, who are ready to put their
children at risk for the sake of a hobby.
- For protection of home and property a gun is absolutely useless and in fact
a danger.
I am thinking:
I have now become a city slicker, live in a condo down town Vancouver and
any noise that I hear does not concern me.
That was not always so. When we owned houses in Kamloops, B.C. I must
have gotten up hundreds of times in the middle of the night to check out
noises. I never had a gun, but if I had one, it would have been properly under
lock and key. I can just see myself telling an intruder: "Now hold it right
there, don't go away I have to get my key for the gun lock-up first, so I can
deal with you"
I am thinking:
Okay, so I keep my gun in my bedside drawer (to hell with the kids, defending
my home in macho fashion is more important, and after all, I told them not to
touch that thing). So I grab my gun for the 112th time to check out a noise,
not being really awake, and encounter an intruder who *knows* the situation
he is in and is accordingly all pumped up with adrenalin. He sees my gun, has
none himself and runs. Goody for me, - but if he has no gun, why do I need
one? Say, he has a gun with all his adrenalin going, and I am half asleep, he
has a beat on me long before I even notice, that he is there. Lucky for me, if
he is not the nervous or trigger happy type.
I am thinking:
If I surprise an intruder, and he is the only one with a gun, then I show him
where the silverware is (he has discovered the TV and all the electronics
equipment already all by himself) and phone 911 after he has left and my
insurance the next day. Oh he might beat me up and tie me up, but it is highly
unlikely, that he will commit murder for the sake of a couple of thousand
loonies worth of likely traceable loot.
I am thinking:
How often has a man taken a shot at his son, who was returning , unbeknownst
to dad, from a night out on town, using the basement window fot re-entry and
was mistaken for a burglar?
I am thinking:
A gun, that I not legally own, can not be stolen from me and become an illegal
one.
I am thinking:
If gun registration causes enough gun owners to be more careful in the storage
of their weapons, to safe only one child, its worth it
I am thinking:
How important can a hobby be, that it is worth killing 5,000 children per
annum just to maintain it.
I am thinking:
'But I keep my gun always safely locked up'. Just the more temptation for that
youngster to play with it, the one time you do forget it.
Yeah, I AM thinking! ...and gun-happy idiots still give me the creeps.
Have a nice and thoughtful day, Rob.
Best regards and say hello to Gail,
Olaf
Rob Shane
>If I surprise an intruder, and he is the only one with a gun, then I show him
>where the silverware is (he has discovered the TV and all the electronics
>equipment already all by himself) and phone 911 after he has left and my
>insurance the next day. Oh he might beat me up and tie me up, but it is
>highly
>unlikely, that he will commit murder for the sake of a couple of thousand
>loonies worth of likely traceable loot.
You are a lost soul...Have you never heard of the crooks who kill for a six
pack or sometimes a LOT less?
No, I have no guns. But I no problem with people having them.
-Rob
-Vacaville, CA
<robs...@community.net>
Jon Mitchell
On Fri, 10 Nov 1995, Robert Root wrote:
> Much of my family is involved in either farming or ranching and rabbits
> are quite a nuisance, eating much more than their share. I shoot them
> with the revolver because rifle ammunition is much more expensive than
> pistol ammunition. A shotgun might also work well.
> I expect more from an academic than cheap name calling. If you have
> constructive input please feel do write. If not, please bother your local
> BBS instead.
>
1. Rob, I have worked as an agricultural pest-destruction (read rabbit
destruction in NZ - at the time anyway) on farms in NZ - a backcountry
necessity as well as recreation. Anything more than a .22 for taking
out rabbits seems over the top to me. The comment from another
contributor as to what be left after a body shot from a .44 is most
relevant here. The cost per round is a fraction of a .44 magnum, or a
12-bore for that matter. With a little practice you can acheive similar
results. I guess the smaller piece going off in your hand is not as
satisfying though (see further comment below).
2. Academics can have an input in matters other than that which keeps
them in their ivy covered towers, particularly when they have had
practical experience of the matters at hand. Pest destruction, the
affects of rabbits, etc, an farmland, indigenous animal protection,
access to firearms, shooting/hunting as a recreation, the psychology of
penis envy, are all matters of interest to academics such as
myself.
3. Suggesting that any newsgroup is confined to a local area is rather
tenuous and quite anacronistic in the context of the global village in
which we find our selves living and communicating. In any real sense
this is my local BBS - quite probably more so than it is yours in some ways
(You may have to think about this).
4. What I endulged in with my posting was not intended as "cheap name
calling". There is a fine line between satire and name calling - I
don't believe I crossed it. If you are living on the wrong side of that
line there is not much I can do about it.
Its been a slice.
Cheers
+----------------------+------------------------------------------+
Jon Mitchell email: m...@perth.otago.ac.nz
Teaching Fellow fax: +64-3-479-9037
Dept. Geography voice: +64-3-479-8762
Otago University postal: Box 56, Dunedin, NEW ZEALAND
+----------------------+------------------------------------------+
Jens Kurt Heycke
I have to agree with others that bears inspire more fear (and
more rec.backcountry discussion) than is probably merited. However,
since this is where peoples' interests appear to lie, and since this
topic has special relevance to me, I'll contribute.
Last night at about 3:00 a.m, I was woken by the loud noise of
bottles clanking around. Since I often stay at my girlfriend's place
in SF, I am accustomed to the sound of late night marauders
stealing cans out of the recycling bins. Assuming that's what it
was, I ran downstairs, flung about the door, and ran out, ready to
give the culprits a lecture... There was only one culprit; he was
about 300 pounds and furry, with big claws.
One odd characteristic I've noticed in myself and others is the
tendency to fly off the handle when tiny things go wrong (like when
the !@$%@#$% stop button on the VCR doesn't work) but to remain
completely and utterly calm when there is genuine danger at hand
(like when you're standing closer to a 300 lbs bear than you did
to your date during slow dances at the senior prom). So it was in
this case; I remained completely calm. Ascertaining that the bear
didn't want to slow dance, I said something that I thought was witty
at the time and very slowly stepped backwards into my
front door, closing it behind me.
After that, I ran upstairs and yelled and clapped my hands at the bear
from the safety of my second floor window. He slowly started ambling
off, turning his head and looking at me as if to say, "Yes I'm
leaving, but not because you scare me, but because I'm done here".
This is the third very close encounter I've had with a bear. In a
previous encounter, a bear circumambulated my tent about five
times, and then pushed his nose into the mesh and sniffed my
face. In each of these instances, I've actually been glad that
I didn't have a gun with me. If I had, I probably would have done
something really stupid like whip the gun out and shoot myself in the
foot. If the bear were to die, it would only be from laughter at my
idiocy.
However calm I've been in these situations, I think attempting
to shoot (or pepper spray) a bear at close range would have
been extremely dangerous. Assuming I could get the gun out
without provoking a reaction from the bear, I would have had
to shoot _and kill_ the bear on the first shot. Failing to do so
would probably have provoked an injurious, and possibly fatal,
response from the bear.
All that being said, if you actually want to hunt a bear (as opposed
to simply defending yourself on a backpacking trip), I think it is
foolish to use a handgun -- 44s and 45s included. Where I grew up,
there were some Indians who hunted bears, and they always told
me the only thing to use is a riflle, and the only rifle to use is a
300 Weatherby. Use anything less and you risk being half-successful --
i.e inhumane to the poor animal and dangerous to yourself.
jkh
=============================================================
Jens Kurt Heycke j...@gnn.com
Home Page: http://members.gnn.com/jkh
Ski & Rec report: http://members.gnn.com/jkh/tahoe.htm
,_ o
/ //\,
\>> |
\\, \
Ephialtes
: Has anybody out there shot a bear with Hornady's 240gr. XTP load? I
: haven't shot anything bigger than a rabbit with that particular load, but
: it seems like a good bet for defense against any critters likely to be
: found in the lower 48.
As far as what is a good defense for bear, I saw the following response (or
something close to it) on rec.guns or rec.hunting (I forget which):
"In defending yourself against a bear, your best bet for a handgun is the
smallest .22 you can find and file off the front sight; that way, it won't
hurt so much when the bear shoves it up your a$$."
Hope this helps.
-- Lug
________________________________________
Exercise reason, but have no excuses
Learn from mistakes, but have no regrets
Act with prudence, but have no fear
Consider tomorrow, but seize the day
Eugene N. Miya
Jon Mitchell <m...@perth.otago.ac.nz> writes:
>Anyone who shoots rabbits with a .44 magnum is one or two sausages short
>of a McBreakfast.
This is a very interesting analogy (metaphor).....
Lug
: All that being said, if you actually want to hunt a bear (as opposed
: to simply defending yourself on a backpacking trip), I think it is
: foolish to use a handgun -- 44s and 45s included. Where I grew up,
: there were some Indians who hunted bears, and they always told
: me the only thing to use is a riflle, and the only rifle to use is a
: 300 Weatherby. Use anything less and you risk being half-successful --
The consensus on rec.hunting was that you ought not use anything less
than a rifle that begins with a 4. An 8mm mag would do the trick, too.
But this discussion belongs in rec.hunting...
-- L
Bob Ellinwood
>
> However calm I've been in these situations, I think attempting
> to shoot (or pepper spray) a bear at close range would have
> been extremely dangerous.
>
definitely disagree about the pepper spray, which was developed for use with
bears. After reading about Dr. Jonkel's research at the Univ. of Montana in
developing a variety of bear repellants and finding that pepper spray was the
most successful, and after hearing of documented grizzly attacks stopped *in
progress* by the large cannisters of pepper spray (source: Counter Assault,
Missoula,MT), I think they're worth carrying and using *in extremis*.
Obviously, and this may have been part of what you were saying, one should not
use anything like this unless absolutely necessary. I witnessed a hiker give a
too-nosy bear a short spray in the snout once and the bear took off, not to be
seen again that night. In Dr.Jonkel's experiments, I am led to believe that a
tethered black bear, having been sprayed the day before, approached by the same
person the following day, took off and climbed a nearby tree to the extent of
the tether. I dunno... Seems worth carrying to me. But, as has been said many
times here, we're all different and solve similar problems differently. :)
Cheers, Bob
* * * * * * elli...@acavax.lynchburg.edu * * * * * *
Robert Ellinwood,DMA @ Guidebook Chair, NBATC
Lynchburg College 0|__ Editor, HIKING A ROUND
Lynchburg, VA 24501 /| \ (Mountaineers,Seattle)
804-544-8345 / \ \ Trails: A.T. '80-'83
FAX:804-544-8658 _________/__/___\_____________ EMT | P.C.T. '85-'91
"Bob" // \\ | A.T. '92-'95
********************** \ / **********************
Opinions expressed are> ~^/^\^~^~^~^~^~^/^\^~^~^~^~^ <strictly my own views!
/^\^~^~^~^/^\^~^~^~^~^/^\^~^~
mark j mathis
I don't know, a 35mm works wonders...
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Mark J Mathis
mjma...@fcol.com
Team OS/2
OS/2 Warp on the Internet: Webbin' the highway at Warp speed!
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Theodore G. Grozier
treking. In conversations with local rangers, fishermen, and bush pilots,
one consensus emerges: If you carry an anti-bear firearm, it better be a
pump-action 12-gauge shotgun, sawed-off, with a folding stock. Maussberg
makes a good stainless-steel (read, totally weather-proof) model with an
18 inch barrel.
Mr. Lurch
>I am thinking:
>If I surprise an intruder, and he is the only one with a gun, then I show him
>where the silverware is (he has discovered the TV and all the electronics
>equipment already all by himself) and phone 911 after he has left and my
>insurance the next day. Oh he might beat me up and tie me up, but it is highly
>unlikely, that he will commit murder for the sake of a couple of thousand
>loonies worth of likely traceable loot.
I've been to Vancouver many times. Its a great city. Be thankful you live in
such a place, not downtown Atlanta, as I did. If you had, you would not
have come to expect such civility from armed intruders.
>I am thinking:
>How often has a man taken a shot at his son, who was returning , unbeknownst
>to dad, from a night out on town, using the basement window fot re-entry and
>was mistaken for a burglar?
>I am thinking:
>A gun, that I not legally own, can not be stolen from me and become an illegal
>one.
>I am thinking:
>If gun registration causes enough gun owners to be more careful in the storage
>of their weapons, to safe only one child, its worth it
>I am thinking:
>How important can a hobby be, that it is worth killing 5,000 children per
>annum just to maintain it.
All of these examples could just as easily be used to argue for the banning of
automobiles, power saws, powder-actuated nail guns and a host of other "tools"
that can be misused. The rights of the majority should not be compromised by
an irresponsible minority. But I have no problem with registration. I think
everyone who wants to purchase a gun should have to go through a federal
background check, then be issued an I.D. card that must be shown before a
weapon can be purchased. Instead we have a mishmosh of useless regulations,
waiting periods, etc. The feds love their paperwork.
Lurch
Mr. Lurch
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>---------------------------------15503893519870
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Hi,
> Do you load the shotgun with slugs? It seems shot wouldn't penetrate
>the thick hide, fat and bones of a bear do do damage.
> I carry the revolver because it's a lot less bulky than my Benelli M1
>slug gun. Plus I'm working on a great holster to fit my pack straps, so
>it'll be very accessible.
Let me say before I start that I think the danger from bears in the
backcountry is minimal, unless you mess around with a mother and
her cubs. Rutting moose probably present more of a danger. In any case, you
are a thousand times more likely to be killed or hurt on the drive up
than you are once you get into the woods.
I have only had to kill one animal in all my years of backpacking, one
perhaps rabid (and feral) mongrel dog. But the experience did reinforce my
belief that it is prudent to carry some kind of firearm on the trail.
Brown bears can present a danger in areas where they have lost their natural
fear of humans, although attacks are extremely rare. If you are planning on
dropping either bear or moose with a weapon that can be easily carried, I
would suggest a good quality double barrel (or pump, if you can manage the
weight) chopped to the legal limit with three-inch chambers, sling and
lightweight folding polymer stock. If you opt for the double, load one
chamber with 00 buck and one with a slug. Alternate them if you choose the
pump. I don't think 44 mags have the muzzle energy to do anything other than
piss a big bear off, especially in the fall when they have a very thick layer
of fat. A few .44 slugs may eventually kill him or her, but probably not
before the bear mauls you or breaks your neck. Remember, shooting at a bear
would be the absolute last resort, because, even one that appears aggressive
may eventually leave of his own accord. But, once you shoot, either you or the
bear must die. No quarter will be given from the bear's end. Putting a bear
down in a matter of seconds with any gun generally requires a head or spine
shot, things that are hard to manage with a handgun in the best of
circumstances, and damn near impossible when scared shitless and facing a a
charging animal.
For years, I hunted wild hog and Russian boar with a variety of firearms,
including a .44 Smith model 29. On one occasion I had to wait two and one
half hours in a tree while a boar I had shot three times with the 29 (two in
the chest, one in the neck) snarled, snorted and finally, bled to death.
Nuff' said? A tree is usually your best defense.
By the way, I don't hunt anymore, and I'm no gun toting looney, either.
Lurch
Jim Owen
>In article <481615$p...@grid.direct.ca> ol...@Direct.CA (Olaf Henny) writes:
>
>>If I surprise an intruder, and he is the only one with a gun, then I show him
>>where the silverware is (he has discovered the TV and all the electronics
>>equipment already all by himself) and phone 911 after he has left and my
>>insurance the next day. Oh he might beat me up and tie me up, but it is highly
>>unlikely, that he will commit murder for the sake of a couple of thousand
>>loonies worth of likely traceable loot.
>
>such a place, not downtown Atlanta, as I did. If you had, you would not
>have come to expect such civility from armed intruders.
>
>>How often has a man taken a shot at his son, who was returning , unbeknownst
>>to dad, from a night out on town, using the basement window fot re-entry and
>>was mistaken for a burglar?
>
>>I am thinking:
>>A gun, that I not legally own, can not be stolen from me and become an illegal
>>one.
>
>>I am thinking:
>>If gun registration causes enough gun owners to be more careful in the storage
>>of their weapons, to safe only one child, its worth it
>
>>I am thinking:
>>How important can a hobby be, that it is worth killing 5,000 children per
>>annum just to maintain it.
>
>automobiles, power saws, powder-actuated nail guns and a host of other "tools"
>that can be misused. The rights of the majority should not be compromised by
>an irresponsible minority. But I have no problem with registration. I think
>everyone who wants to purchase a gun should have to go through a federal
>background check, then be issued an I.D. card that must be shown before a
>weapon can be purchased. Instead we have a mishmosh of useless regulations,
>waiting periods, etc. The feds love their paperwork.
>
>Lurch
Olaf in not only overly trusting of people who are proven to be untrustworthy, but he uses bad statistics too. His numbers come sta=
ight out of Handgun Control literature, and their concept of truth is anything that advances their cause. On the other hand, you're=
too trusting of a government that has only too recently proved itself untrustworthy and much too willing to misuse its power. Read=
some more history - your words and ideas are identical to those of the Germans when Hitler took power. Among the first actions tak=
en by Hitler's government was the registration of guns. Those registration lists were then used to seize the guns. You don't even =
have to leave this country to find the same actions on the part of a government - the city of Cincinatti did exactly the same thing.=
I would suggest that this discussion be moved to another forum. This isn't the right place for it.
bee...@ix.netcom.com
>Rober...@om.cv.hp.com Robert Root says...
>>
>> Has anybody out there shot a bear with Hornady's 240gr. XTP load? I
>>haven't shot anything bigger than a rabbit with that particular load, but
>>it seems like a good bet for defense against any critters likely to be
>>found in the lower 48.
>>
>
To answer your question, the .44 mag is a good choice for protection
while backpacking. I particularly like the little
"backpacker special" by Smith & Wesson. I will resist the temptation
to gouge you about shooting a bunny with a .44 mag, for I'm sure many
others will do so
larimore
pistol unless it was at least a 300grain lead bullet made to be
extremly strong. Better protcetion would be bear spray unless
you shoot at least 50 rounds through your pistol a weak at the
local shooting range. It is a lot harder then you think to
shoot a charging bear with a pistol while it only takes a
squirt with bear spary to hit the target.
Scot Carpenter
: If I were you I would not attempt to shoot any bear with the
This on-going discussion has missed one of the possibly most effective
short range defense mechanisms available to mankind (I'll let womynkind
offer their own methods): defensive pissing.
While the merits of 10% vs 5% pepper spray have been debated, no
one has examined the efficacy of 100% SHP (scared human pee).
The method takes a minimal amount of training or preparation, as
the tendency to excrete urine at times of high stress is more or less
inate.
What is required is the ability to, "Stand and Deliver," as it
were... While the Highwayman's order was to hand over the family jewels
in order to save one's life, the ursine equivalent is to ..er,
manipulate... the family jewels to the same purpose.
While I admit that I have no studies as to the efficacy of human
urine delivered onto the proboscis of Ursus Horribilis in order to deter
same from attack, I offer the following advantages to the method:
1. It costs nothing to acquire the necessary weaponry and no
permit is required to carry same.
2. Practice is guaranteed.
3. Their is no weight penalty in packing the the weaponry,
(except for the most fanatical backpackers).
4. The ingestion of pungent and exotic dietary substances is
encouraged, which will encourage multi-cultural experiences.
5. Drinking large quantities of water (or other beverage) is
encouraged, which is a valuable survival practice in any case.
5. A mis-fire is far less damaging than same with a .44 magnum.
7. The probabilities of being attacked by a bear and deterring
it by pissing on it are pretty much the same as the odds of being
attacked by a bear and killing it with a firearm.
I realize, of course, that some guys will make a contest of
this, but the upside of it is that: it's not what caliber you bring to the
range, but how far it will shoot.
--
| Scot Carpenter carp...@uh.edu 71234...@compuserve.com |
One must imagine Sisyphus happy. A.C.
Stuart Telford
>local shooting range. It is a lot harder then you think to
>shoot a charging bear with a pistol while it only takes a
>squirt with bear spary to hit the target.
>
What's this bear spray? I sounds usefull for the John Muir Trail.
Thanks,
Stuart
73612...@compuserve.com
grown bear is naive and dangerous. We in the THA (Tinkle Hunters
of America) are dedicated to the practice and refinement of this
challenging and dangerous sport. First and formost is the
recognition that this sport is exclusively available only to men.
Secondly, we STRONGLY encourage anyone attempting to piss-off
any non-rodent or non-domesticated mammal to spend a week at one
of our training camps. At our camps the the students are taught to
to pee first on housecats and rodents, gradually working up to
sheep and goats BEFORE ever attempting to piss-off a large
predator. Graduation is an exciting first-squirt one-on-one with
Kendra, our pet defanged and declawed African Lion. Drop us a
note, you may be just type to excel at this unusual sport.
--
Don Burt
Marc Alverson
73612...@COMPUSERVE.COM <73612...@CompuServe.COM> wrote:
> The notion that just any outdoorsman can effectively piss-off a
> grown bear is naive and dangerous. ....
Remember, it is better to be pissed off than to be pissed on.
--
Marc Alverson
WB8FXK, NRA Life Member