I disapprove Hunters
Chad
Bryan Casinger
There is much more to hunting than killing, taking the animal is just the
end result, and is not in itself morally wrong.
Do you eat meat, wear leather shoes, or use any other animal product? If
so, then you are paying others to kill animals for you, for your pleasure.
Is that any more morally right? To paraphrase President Jimmy Carter, a
great sportsman and considered a very moral man, by hunting he takes and
feels some small responsibility for the lives of the animals that are killed
for his benefit, a feeling which people who have never killed an animal can
never understand.
People who have never taken responsibility for those animals, who look down
on those that have, yet who still use animal products should be pitied for
their ignorance and false sense of righteousness. I don't know if that
applies to you, for all I know you are a vegetarian, who only eats "organic"
foods, who lives in a cave or some other simple shelter, who has never worn
leather, who uses nothing made with glue, etc....but I doubt you go that far
to insure an animal is never killed for you. Very few people in this world
ever could. So I pity you your ignorance....
By the way, I have just started reading this group...what is all this racist
crap and belligerence to others?
Rick W.
>I think killing for pleasure is not only morally
> wrong but also cruel and cold hearted, you
> get back what you give. Just my opinion
> though.
Good for you. BTW, Webtv is tested regularly on animals, you hypocrite!
Rick
rick etter
>
> I think killing for pleasure is not only morally wrong but also cruel
> and cold hearted, you get back what you give. Just my opinion though.
>
Are you a pregnant chad, or a dimbled chad, sorry, couldn't resist!!
As to killing for 'pleasure', do you eat? Do you enjoy eating? Do you
enjoy a great meal with friends/family? Well, then you do kill for
'pleasure', you just pay others to do the dirty work for you, but the
blood is still on your hands! So, my cruel and cold-hearted one,
welcome to the animal world.
--
Canoe North!
Rick Etter
http://www.bright.net/~retter
Step outside...The Graphics are Amazing!
Jerry L. Golden
"Bryan Casinger" <bcas...@hotmail.com> wrote:
<snipped>
> By the way, I have just started reading this group...what is all this
> racist crap and belligerence to others?
>
They always act like that; the Trolls are just aware of doing it while
the PC's aren't.
Welcome to rec.backcounty; don't confuse it with reality.
--
JLG
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
John McKernan
overpopulation.There are many State Parks you can go into that are
stripped clean of vegetation up to around eight feet high.In order to
cull the herds,many municipalities are opening their parks to hunting
again.Some are even hiring professional hunters.I hunt,not that I enjoy
killing,but I do eat everything I kill.This is the only way to "protect"
the overall population.
Last year,in a town near here,A woman I went to High School with was
killed when a buck ran into her car at 3:00pm on a busy road,forcing her
into a tree.You can also see a lot of deer dead on the interstate around
here.Hunting here,in my opinion ,is not only right,but necessary.
John McKernan
Eugene Miya
Actually as urban areas encroach making hunting less and less possible
one can expect to see the hunters losing area like the animals get go after.
That clash will be reflected in the classic political fighting going on
right now between those who own land and the general urban populice.
I like plants. I like eating the thing which eat them.
Tasty.
Slurp.
There a net.polar-bear wandering out there somewhere.....
Ed Huesers
Eugene Miya wrote:
> There a net.polar-bear wandering out there somewhere.....
Wandering?
Went up Friday after Thanksgiving and built an igloo with 1 1/2 ft.
of snow... does that count.
Actually, I've been moving my machine shop and setting up a warehouse
and assembly area for Grand Shelters Inc. I've been at it for 2 1/2
weeks and it's nearing completion now.
The move involved riggers, new 200 amp main, new 60 amp sub panel,
air lines, vacuum system for graphite, cabinets, new EDM, new saw, and
putting everything away. 14 to 16 hour days are tiring.
Grand Shelters is no longer a garage operation, thanks to all.
Ed Huesers
http://www.grandshelters.com
ta...@webtv.net
country side would be over run.the game it self
would get
smaller and finally die off ,from starva
tion,and diease .so we shot a few and the rest
live on,granted therehas to be control on how many
is shot.we have educated people who study this a nd set the lim its.
Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
The--...@webtv.net (Chad) wrote:
>
> I think killing for pleasure is not only morally wrong but also cruel
> and cold hearted, you get back what you give. Just my opinion though.
>
apparently have not. No human being in his right mind enjoys killing,
but anyone who claims not to have an instinct to hunt that triggers a
pleasure center in the brain is lying to himself. Video games and
chess are modern offshoots of that primitive instinct.
But animal populations must be managed in this artificial
environment humans have created. We can't seem to live with wolves and
mountain lions, while deer, the natural food for those predators, have
little problem living within the city limits. Those deer are designed
by nature to lose - by that I mean they die - a full 33% of their
population each and every winter. They never do anymore, and that's
why North America is up to its ears in sickly overpopulated
whitetails. If you haven't the spiritual serenity to release an
animal's spirit to the Creator without remorse, then by all means
refrain from hunting. But please don't demonize hunters as sociopathic
killers until you've gotten to know a few. As a group they are the
real conservationists, and the dollars they contribute to protecting
the environment outnumber many times the pittance generated by so-
called animal rights groups that do little more than whine in public.
--
-- Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer. Author of the books: The Outward
Bound Wilderness Survival Handbook, The Snowshoe Handbook, The Outdoors
Almanac, The Complete Tracker, Made for the Outdoors, Practical Outdoor
Survival.
www.amazon.com www.barnesandnoble.com
www.borders.com
Kevin Thomas
: By the way, I have just started reading this group...what is all this racist
: crap and belligerence to others?
The racist and belligerance crap is a subset of those who post arrogant,
opinionated messages.
david mann
: Actually as urban areas encroach making hunting less and less possible
: one can expect to see the hunters losing area like the animals get go after.
Rifle -> shotgun -> bow -> animal control officer (or sub contractor)
: That clash will be reflected in the classic political fighting going on
: right now between those who own land and the general urban populice.
Buy your Perdue Oven Roaster (TM) while protesting the cruelty
to animals dolled out by the contractor the mayor hired to
cull the deer from the town woods.
[dave gets dizzy and grabs a hold of desk till his monitor
quits spinning]
Hope all is well Gene. Wax the skis.
Eugene Miya
Ed Huesers <e...@grandshelters.com> wrote:
>Eugene Miya wrote:
>> There a net.polar-bear wandering out there somewhere.....
>
> Wandering?
> Went up Friday after Thanksgiving and built an igloo with 1 1/2 ft.
About 100 Ms from me, there are these polar bear dolls with ski poles
for about 7.5 SF.
But I think that you are too old for that.
>of snow... does that count.
If you stayed several nights in it.
> Actually, I've been moving my machine shop and setting up a warehouse
>and assembly area for Grand Shelters Inc. I've been at it for 2 1/2
>weeks and it's nearing completion now.
> The move involved riggers, new 200 amp main, new 60 amp sub panel,
>air lines, vacuum system for graphite, cabinets, new EDM, new saw, and
>putting everything away. 14 to 16 hour days are tiring.
> Grand Shelters is no longer a garage operation, thanks to all.
Capitalism at work.
Eugene Miya
david mann <dam...@lynx.dac.neu.edu> wrote:
>Eugene Miya (eug...@cse.ucsc.edu) wrote:
>: Actually as urban areas encroach making hunting less and less possible
>: one can expect to see the hunters losing area like the animals get go after.
>
>Rifle -> shotgun -> bow -> animal control officer (or sub contractor)
It's amazing the firepower one sees in the Alps, on trains (all male
citizens are in the army for the most part), and I got a Swiss Army laser
at a gun shop two weeks ago in Zurich to say nothing of the submachine
guns they sell there (merely curious and had some time to kill).
>: That clash will be reflected in the classic political fighting going on
>: right now between those who own land and the general urban populice.
>
>Buy your Perdue Oven Roaster (TM) while protesting the cruelty
>to animals dolled out by the contractor the mayor hired to
>cull the deer from the town woods.
Culling is such a joke. Hunters today have it easy compared to decades ago.
Even the knowledgeable guys in r.h. recognize that. Just maake certain
the carcase gets used. Humankind's urban future is going to be an
interesting one.
>[dave gets dizzy and grabs a hold of desk till his monitor
>quits spinning]
>
>Hope all is well Gene. Wax the skis.
Renting the skis, put one good ding in mine two day ago.
Saw the Matterhorn this morning, what a view, what a country, what a people.
Be there maybe at weeks end. Then Grindelwald, may have to give a
seminar first in Lugano, that will cut down on Graubunden plans.
This diplomat thing is amusing.
Mark McGilvray
Hunting suburbia to cull the game populations makes sense and is safe if
carried out by responsible people. I hunt & would be mightily upset at some
yahoo putting a rifle bullet through my house (not to mention me). Equally
irritating is the insistance that culling is evil and that "nature" work
it's will on the wildlife populations. This is a ridiculous position -
watching animals die from starvation and disease is not humane, nor is it
acceptable. Game management isn't an option anymore, it's a necessity.
What type laser did you get, a rangefinder? Are you sure Zurich gunshoips
are selling machine guns, or knock-off look alikes of the semiauto variety?
Yeah, Johann Q. Citizen generally runs around performing his military
obligation & generally having a pretty good time of it, assault rifles and
all.
"Eugene Miya" <eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> wrote in message
news:3a34ae6e$1...@news.ucsc.edu...
XLT Powder
kids. It's really simple. If I am stupid, the bears eat...me.
In article <29890-3A...@storefull-223.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
The--...@webtv.net (Chad) wrote:
>
> --WebTV-Mail-19878-170
> Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit
>
> I think killing for pleasure is not only morally wrong but also cruel
> and cold hearted, you get back what you give. Just my opinion though.
>
> --WebTV-Mail-19878-170
> Content-Description: signature
> Content-Disposition: Inline
> Content-Type: Text/HTML; Charset=US-ASCII
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit
>
> <html><a href="http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/ParadiseIsland2"<img
>
src="http://files.flamingtext.com/files/00/11/18/flamingtext_com.2056935
0.gif"
> border="3"></a>
> </html>
>
> --WebTV-Mail-19878-170--
>
--
Snowmobilers for Bush/Cheney
Eugene Miya
Mark McGilvray <mcgi...@ns.net> wrote:
>Hunting suburbia to cull the game populations makes sense and is safe if
>carried out by responsible people. I hunt & would be mightily upset at some
>yahoo putting a rifle bullet through my house (not to mention me). Equally
>irritating is the insistance that culling is evil and that "nature" work
>it's will on the wildlife populations. This is a ridiculous position -
>watching animals die from starvation and disease is not humane, nor is it
>acceptable. Game management isn't an option anymore, it's a necessity.
The problem actually hit the old Soviet Union as they urbanized.
Overtime hunters lost their other basic outdoor skills. They have
become lazy (the recurring r.h. thread about blinds and hunting farms).
In the SU's case. the quality of their conscripts diminished.
The amusing thing is that drivers run over far more deer, almost by a
factor of two, than hunters shoot. This trend is likely to continue.
Worse will be what we do to predators and farm land.
>What type laser did you get, a rangefinder?
Just a pointer in a Wenger knife.
>Are you sure Zurich gunships
>are selling machine guns, or knock-off look alikes of the semiauto variety?
You can get Stm 57s and Stm 90s from peoples prior service.
Active duty walk around with their Stm 90s all the time.
>Yeah, Johann Q. Citizen generally runs around performing his military
>obligation & generally having a pretty good time of it, assault rifles and
>all.
>> It's amazing the firepower one sees in the Alps, on trains (all male
>> citizens are in the army for the most part), and I got a Swiss Army laser
>> at a gun shop two weeks ago in Zurich to say nothing of the submachine
>> guns they sell there (merely curious and had some time to kill).
I had to listen to F/A-18s yesterday. I reach a mountain top near Davos
(only man made snow there right now) and the top was a camo air control
center with radars, air defense, and the works (gun turrets disgused as
rock outcrops). It was better than out of a Bond movie.
Mark McGilvray
> In article <Jh9_5.1482$1%2.6...@sjc-read.news.verio.net>,
> Mark McGilvray <mcgi...@ns.net> wrote:
> >Hunting suburbia to cull the game populations makes sense and is safe if
> >carried out by responsible people. I hunt & would be mightily upset at
some
> >yahoo putting a rifle bullet through my house (not to mention me).
Equally
> >irritating is the insistance that culling is evil and that "nature" work
> >it's will on the wildlife populations. This is a ridiculous position -
> >watching animals die from starvation and disease is not humane, nor is it
> >acceptable. Game management isn't an option anymore, it's a necessity.
>
> The problem actually hit the old Soviet Union as they urbanized.
> Overtime hunters lost their other basic outdoor skills. They have
> become lazy (the recurring r.h. thread about blinds and hunting farms).
> In the SU's case. the quality of their conscripts diminished.
>
impossible. About the only places hunting was done is the far north and east
of the Urals. Naturally, the police state wasn't very anxious to arm the
guests in "Hotel Stalin" in the gulag & transported communities. As you say,
urbanization also played a major role.
> The amusing thing is that drivers run over far more deer, almost by a
> factor of two, than hunters shoot. This trend is likely to continue.
> Worse will be what we do to predators and farm land.
>
Sad, but true. I am of two minds on the predators. I would not like to see
large predators re-introduced where they will do harm to people or economic
interests like livestock. Government payment or reimbursemet for predation
is a nice idea that really doesn't work for two reasons: 1) if the livestock
is worth $1,000, the government will likely pay 10 cents on the dollar after
5 years and $50,000 in legal fees to perfect a claim. 2) I grew up on a
ranch in eastern Washington and can say without reservation that NO rancher
likes to have his stock injured or killed by predators PERIOD.
As far as nurturing large predators in the remote areas of the lower 48,
that's not a bad idea if some common sense is used. I love going to Alaska
and sneaking around the big bears & seeing the wolves. I would not like them
in the Sierra, however. I would not be happy to see someone's child killed
by a cougar while waiting for the school bus in Placerville, CA, because the
econazis have decided to let them roam uncontrolled and unhunted. Even the
lowly coyote, probably the most successful predator today, is coming into
suburban areas and occaisionally takes a child.
Farm land is a real problem, especially the very productive land near the
major metropolitan areas - it's simply worth more as real estate for
building than it is to produce crops. Lest anyone be unaware, food comes
from farms, not the supermarket. Fat, happy, and overfed America is going to
paint itself into a corner soon. The increasing population and decreasing
acreage of farm land is going to cause a real train wreck in the future. Who
wants to buy back houses built on prime farm land to put it back in
production? As much as I hate the idea of government subsidy, this might be
the way to keep development off out best agricultural land, while giving the
landowner an alternative to real estate development, without just shafting
him economically.
> >What type laser did you get, a rangefinder?
>
> Just a pointer in a Wenger knife.
>
Can you call in air strikes with this?
> >Are you sure Zurich gunships
> >are selling machine guns, or knock-off look alikes of the semiauto
variety?
>
> You can get Stm 57s and Stm 90s from peoples prior service.
> Active duty walk around with their Stm 90s all the time.
>
Amazing! I knew the active duty military carried their rifles around, but
didn't know the full auto stuff was available.
> >Yeah, Johann Q. Citizen generally runs around performing his military
> >obligation & generally having a pretty good time of it, assault rifles
and
> >all.
>
> >> It's amazing the firepower one sees in the Alps, on trains (all male
> >> citizens are in the army for the most part), and I got a Swiss Army
laser
> >> at a gun shop two weeks ago in Zurich to say nothing of the submachine
> >> guns they sell there (merely curious and had some time to kill).
>
> I had to listen to F/A-18s yesterday. I reach a mountain top near Davos
> (only man made snow there right now) and the top was a camo air control
> center with radars, air defense, and the works (gun turrets disgused as
> rock outcrops). It was better than out of a Bond movie.
>
The zoomies can be really annoying unless one is in the mood to watch & put
up with the noise.
Eugene Miya
Mark McGilvray <mcgi...@ns.net> wrote:
>Very interesting.
>The soviets also made private ownership of a rifle in european Russia almost
>impossible. About the only places hunting was done is the far north and east
>of the Urals. Naturally, the police state wasn't very anxious to arm the
>guests in "Hotel Stalin" in the gulag & transported communities. As you say,
>urbanization also played a major role.
They had some very good marksmen years ago.
>> The amusing thing is that drivers run over far more deer, almost by a
...
>Sad, but true. I am of two minds on the predators. I would not like to see
>large predators re-introduced where they will do harm to people or economic
>interests like livestock. Government payment or reimbursement for predation
>is a nice idea that really doesn't work for two reasons: 1) if the livestock
>is worth $1,000, the government will likely pay 10 cents on the dollar after
>5 years and $50,000 in legal fees to perfect a claim. 2) I grew up on a
>ranch in eastern Washington and can say without reservation that NO rancher
>likes to have his stock injured or killed by predators PERIOD.
That's the quandary we face now.
I would try to avoid fiancial incentives like reimbursement, we might
regret it later.
Dinner last night BTW was chamois. I was expecting something closer to
vennison. It wasn't. It was okay.
>As far as nurturing large predators in the remote areas of the lower 48,
>that's not a bad idea if some common sense is used. I love going to Alaska
>and sneaking around the big bears & seeing the wolves. I would not like them
>in the Sierra, however. I would not be happy to see someone's child killed
>by a cougar while waiting for the school bus in Placerville, CA, because the
>econazis have decided to let them roam uncontrolled and unhunted. Even the
>lowly coyote, probably the most successful predator today, is coming into
>suburban areas and occaisionally takes a child.
I wonder what the Sierra foothills will look like in 2050....
The problem with common sense is that our attempt at this fail so far.
>Farm land is a real problem, especially the very productive land near the
>major metropolitan areas - it's simply worth more as real estate for
>building than it is to produce crops. Lest anyone be unaware, food comes
>from farms, not the supermarket. Fat, happy, and overfed America is going to
>paint itself into a corner soon. The increasing population and decreasing
>acreage of farm land is going to cause a real train wreck in the future. Who
>wants to buy back houses built on prime farm land to put it back in
>production? As much as I hate the idea of government subsidy, this might be
>the way to keep development off out best agricultural land, while giving the
>landowner an alternative to real estate development, without just shafting
>him economically.
Well said.
>> >Swiss laser
>>
>Can you call in air strikes with this?
An interesting idea.
I hope so. 8^).
>> Stm 57s and Stm 90s
>>
>Amazing! I knew the active duty military carried their rifles around, but
>didn't know the full auto stuff was available.
They don't encourage it. It's a country of marksmen, usually.
But they have kept up with the times.
>> >Johann Q. Citizen generally runs around performing his military obligation
>> >> It's amazing the firepower one sees in the Alps, on trains (all male
>> I had to listen to F/A-18s yesterday.
More today, unless Swiss Air flies in formation.
>The zoomies can be really annoying unless one is in the mood to watch & put
>up with the noise.
It a bit of a worry because of avalanches.
Eugene Miya
XLT Powder <doug...@pobox.mtaonline.net> wrote:
>I am part of the food chain. The smart moose live, the dumb ones feed my
>kids. It's really simple. If I am stupid, the bears eat...me.
Nice to a first approximation, but doesn't work that way.
XLT Powder
Animals.
In article <3a426e96$1...@news.ucsc.edu>,
--
Pete Hickey
XLT Powder <doug...@pobox.mtaonline.net> wrote:
>It does where I live. Charter member of P.E.T.A- People Eating Tasty
>Animals.
It does??? The animals have eaten all the stupid people?
"First approximation" You've given a model which covers some
of it, but not all. One hole.. Society protects stupid people.
>In article <3a426e96$1...@news.ucsc.edu>,
> eug...@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) wrote:
>> In article <91cl67$ege$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
>> XLT Powder <doug...@pobox.mtaonline.net> wrote:
>> >I am part of the food chain. The smart moose live, the dumb ones feed
>my
>> >kids. It's really simple. If I am stupid, the bears eat...me.
>>
>> Nice to a first approximation, but doesn't work that way.
>>
--
Pete Hickey | Pe...@mudhead.uottawa.CA
Communication Services | Hate Spam? Check out my spam song:
University of Ottawa |
Ottawa,Ont. Canada K1N 6N5| http://mudhead.uottawa.ca/~pete/spam_song.html
Eugene Miya
Pete Hickey <pe...@bitman.uottawa.ca.DELETE.ME> wrote:
>In article <921ekn$if7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
>XLT Powder <doug...@pobox.mtaonline.net> wrote:
>>It does where I live. Charter member of P.E.T.A- People Eating Tasty Animals.
Oh yes, I am a member of that PETA, just start a discussion here about cannabalism.
>It does??? The animals have eaten all the stupid people?
>
>"First approximation" You've given a model which covers some
>of it, but not all. One hole.. Society protects stupid people.
True.
>>In article <3a426e96$1...@news.ucsc.edu>,
>> eug...@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) wrote:
>>> In article <91cl67$ege$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
>>> XLT Powder <doug...@pobox.mtaonline.net> wrote:
>>> >I am part of the food chain. The smart moose live, the dumb ones feed
>>my
>>> >kids. It's really simple. If I am stupid, the bears eat...me.
>>>
>>> Nice to a first approximation, but doesn't work that way.
Need to cover Lotka-Volterra models one of these days.
Pete Hickey
> Charter member of P.E.T.A- People Eating Tasty Animals.
>
>Oh yes, I am a member of that PETA, just start a discussion here about cannabalism.
Jeannie??? This quote is for you!
"Once down at the jail, they beat a drunk until he almost died-- I asked
one of the cops if I could eat a chunk of his leg before they killed him."
he laughed. "The swine threw me out--hit me with a club." He laughed again.
"I would have eaten it--Why shouldn't I? There's nothing sacred about
human flesh--its meat like everything else--would you deny that?"
Hunter Thompson, The Rum Diary
~
rick etter
>
> In article <921ekn$if7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> XLT Powder <doug...@pobox.mtaonline.net> wrote:
> >It does where I live. Charter member of P.E.T.A- People Eating Tasty
> >Animals.
>
> It does??? The animals have eaten all the stupid people?
>
> "First approximation" You've given a model which covers some
> of it, but not all. One hole.. Society protects stupid people.
All the stupid people aren't in the woods. You can put it in all the
intellectual terms you want, but 'stupid' people in the woods do die,
and society isn't always there to pull their butts out of the fire.
>
> >In article <3a426e96$1...@news.ucsc.edu>,
> > eug...@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) wrote:
> >> In article <91cl67$ege$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> >> XLT Powder <doug...@pobox.mtaonline.net> wrote:
> >> >I am part of the food chain. The smart moose live, the dumb ones feed
> >my
> >> >kids. It's really simple. If I am stupid, the bears eat...me.
> >>
> >> Nice to a first approximation, but doesn't work that way.
--
PoP_EyE
the same standing as humans, ever see a cat experience conflict over killing a
mouse? interesting that the same freaks who say animals should have equal
rights don't think twice [i should say, they don't think at all] about aborting
humans.
Mark McGilvray
"Eugene Miya" <eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> wrote in message
news:3a3e3d85$1...@news.ucsc.edu...
> In article <alO_5.1784$1%2.8...@sjc-read.news.verio.net>,
> Mark McGilvray <mcgi...@ns.net> wrote:
> >Very interesting.
> >The soviets also made private ownership of a rifle in european Russia
almost
> >impossible. About the only places hunting was done is the far north and
east
> >of the Urals. Naturally, the police state wasn't very anxious to arm the
> >guests in "Hotel Stalin" in the gulag & transported communities. As you
say,
> >urbanization also played a major role.
>
> They had some very good marksmen years ago.
They had some very effective snipers during WWII and did very well in the
Olympic shooting disciplines. I have not seen many Russina shooters in the
US for the various rifle competitions. It would cost a fortune and I imagine
state sponsorship has is very difficult to get.
>
> >> The amusing thing is that drivers run over far more deer, almost by a
> ...
> >Sad, but true. I am of two minds on the predators. I would not like to
see
> >large predators re-introduced where they will do harm to people or
economic
> >interests like livestock. Government payment or reimbursement for
predation
> >is a nice idea that really doesn't work for two reasons: 1) if the
livestock
> >is worth $1,000, the government will likely pay 10 cents on the dollar
after
> >5 years and $50,000 in legal fees to perfect a claim. 2) I grew up on a
> >ranch in eastern Washington and can say without reservation that NO
rancher
> >likes to have his stock injured or killed by predators PERIOD.
>
> That's the quandary we face now.
> I would try to avoid fiancial incentives like reimbursement, we might
> regret it later.
Very likely. People become very adroit at milking the system, whether in the
public or prive sector.
>
> Dinner last night BTW was chamois. I was expecting something closer to
> vennison. It wasn't. It was okay.
>
> >As far as nurturing large predators in the remote areas of the lower 48,
> >that's not a bad idea if some common sense is used. I love going to
Alaska
> >and sneaking around the big bears & seeing the wolves. I would not like
them
> >in the Sierra, however. I would not be happy to see someone's child
killed
> >by a cougar while waiting for the school bus in Placerville, CA, because
the
> >econazis have decided to let them roam uncontrolled and unhunted. Even
the
> >lowly coyote, probably the most successful predator today, is coming into
> >suburban areas and occaisionally takes a child.
>
> I wonder what the Sierra foothills will look like in 2050....
> The problem with common sense is that our attempt at this fail so far.
How about common sense and solid science?
>
> >Farm land is a real problem, especially the very productive land near the
> >major metropolitan areas - it's simply worth more as real estate for
> >building than it is to produce crops. Lest anyone be unaware, food comes
> >from farms, not the supermarket. Fat, happy, and overfed America is going
to
> >paint itself into a corner soon. The increasing population and decreasing
> >acreage of farm land is going to cause a real train wreck in the future.
Who
> >wants to buy back houses built on prime farm land to put it back in
> >production? As much as I hate the idea of government subsidy, this might
be
> >the way to keep development off out best agricultural land, while giving
the
> >landowner an alternative to real estate development, without just
shafting
> >him economically.
>
> Well said.
Thanks. I'm really not happy with the subsidy, but there has to be some
economic incentive to the farmer to keep his land in agricultural
production. What are your thoughts on this?
>
> >> >Swiss laser
> >>
> >Can you call in air strikes with this?
>
> An interesting idea.
> I hope so. 8^).
>
> >> Stm 57s and Stm 90s
> >>
> >Amazing! I knew the active duty military carried their rifles around, but
> >didn't know the full auto stuff was available.
>
> They don't encourage it. It's a country of marksmen, usually.
> But they have kept up with the times.
A friend of mine from Norway tells me there are typically something like
5,000 competitors at their national rifle competition and that it is carried
on national TV for its course.
>
> >> >Johann Q. Citizen generally runs around performing his military
obligation
> >> >> It's amazing the firepower one sees in the Alps, on trains (all male
> >> I had to listen to F/A-18s yesterday.
>
> More today, unless Swiss Air flies in formation.
>
> >The zoomies can be really annoying unless one is in the mood to watch &
put
> >up with the noise.
>
> It a bit of a worry because of avalanches.
>
I bet it is. Have fun.
Eugene Miya
Pete Hickey <pe...@bitman.uottawa.ca.DELETE.ME> wrote:
>In article <3a44d76a$1...@news.ucsc.edu>, Eugene Miya <eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> wrote:
>> Charter member of P.E.T.A- People Eating Tasty Animals.
>>
>>Oh yes, I am a member of that PETA, just start a discussion here about cannabalism.
>
>
>Jeannie??? This quote is for you!
She is no longer here.
>"Once down at the jail, they beat a drunk until he almost died-- I asked
>one of the cops if I could eat a chunk of his leg before they killed him."
>he laughed. "The swine threw me out--hit me with a club." He laughed again.
>"I would have eaten it--Why shouldn't I? There's nothing sacred about
>human flesh--its meat like everything else--would you deny that?"
> Hunter Thompson, The Rum Diary
Silence of the Lambs on the tube last evening.
Slurpppp...
No cannabalism in the British Navy......
Well maybe just a little.
Eugene Miya
Mark McGilvray <mcgi...@ns.net> wrote:
>> >The soviets ...
>> >urbanization also played a major role. {detrimental}
>> They had some very good marksmen years ago.
>They had some very effective snipers during WWII and did very well in the
Biathlon.
>US for the various rifle competitions. It would cost a fortune and I imagine
>state sponsorship has is very difficult to get.
I have some awareness of Russian funding mechanisms (a delegation of
scientists came by). The snipers were among those using anti-tank
rifles for a short while.
>> >> The amusing thing is that drivers run over far more deer, almost by a
>> ...
>> I would try to avoid fiancial incentives like reimbursement, we might
>> regret it later.
>Very likely. People become very adroit at milking the system, whether in the
>public or prive sector.
Peope learn to adapt systems to their individual advantage.
>> I wonder what the Sierra foothills will look like in 2050....
>> The problem with common sense is that our attempt at this fail so far.
>
>How about common sense and solid science?
Science isn't about facts so much as process.
Attempts at aquiculture for instance are not going as well as people had
thought. I have two quotes about common sense just being another set of
prejudices (like a flat earth). Frankly I hope that the opponents of
global warming all live in Florida. No subsidies for them.
>> >Farm land is a real problem, especially the very productive land near the
....
>Thanks. I'm really not happy with the subsidy, but there has to be some
>economic incentive to the farmer to keep his land in agricultural
>production. What are your thoughts on this?
I don't have enough knowledge to know how to deal with farm parity.
No specific thoughts. But it has to balance out with the physical world.
>A friend of mine from Norway tells me there are typically something like
>5,000 competitors at their national rifle competition and that it is carried
>on national TV for its course.
That sounds about right, you might check with Martin.
>I bet it is. Have fun.
Having fun in Santa Fe New Mexico.
Have to meet with a few netters while here.
BTW Mark, I'm one of those Sierra Club Life Members.
Mark McGilvray
"Eugene Miya" <eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> wrote in message
news:3a4c11f8$1...@news.ucsc.edu...
> In article <X6v26.3585$1%2.17...@sjc-read.news.verio.net>,
> Mark McGilvray <mcgi...@ns.net> wrote:
> >> >The soviets ...
> >> >urbanization also played a major role. {detrimental}
> >> They had some very good marksmen years ago.
> >They had some very effective snipers during WWII and did very well in the
> >Olympic shooting disciplines. I have not seen many Russian shooters in
the
>
> Biathlon.
I don't compete in biathlon, so I don't follow it.
>
> >US for the various rifle competitions. It would cost a fortune and I
imagine
> >state sponsorship has is very difficult to get.
>
> I have some awareness of Russian funding mechanisms (a delegation of
> scientists came by). The snipers were among those using anti-tank
> rifles for a short while.
I am not aware of Soviet snipers with anti-tank rifles, but their likely
were. The 14.5mm anti-tank rifle was thoroughly inadequate against the later
model German tanks. The main problems with these were weight, lousy sights,
not very accurate, and a muzzle signature that would identify the shooter a
mile away.
>
> >> >> The amusing thing is that drivers run over far more deer, almost by
a
> >> ...
> >> I would try to avoid fiancial incentives like reimbursement, we might
> >> regret it later.
> >Very likely. People become very adroit at milking the system, whether in
the
> >public or prive sector.
>
> Peope learn to adapt systems to their individual advantage.
>
> >> I wonder what the Sierra foothills will look like in 2050....
> >> The problem with common sense is that our attempt at this fail so far.
> >
> >How about common sense and solid science?
>
> Science isn't about facts so much as process.
> Attempts at aquiculture for instance are not going as well as people had
> thought. I have two quotes about common sense just being another set of
> prejudices (like a flat earth). Frankly I hope that the opponents of
> global warming all live in Florida. No subsidies for them.
Oh, I'm not sure some disciplines that don't quadruple their knowlwdge every
6 months aren't concerned with their objective basis, facts, if you will.
American agriculture is doing fine, it's most persistent nemesis being
economics. There is always room for improvement, but it's OK. I am not sure
what an opponent of global warming is - it's a natural phenomenon. Are there
opponents of gravity? All the one's I know have suffered serious injury for
their disbelief. There ar two flavors of global warming, that which occurs
through the cycles of our sun's activity, and the bunk doomsday scenario
that industrial processes and "greenhouse" emissions are going to make
people "shrimp on the barbie". In other words, one is real, one is a
bogeyman of junk science. Common sense is what people make of it. Science is
often what some political ideology makes of it. How does "scientific
socialism" sound, just for a laugh?
>
> >> >Farm land is a real problem, especially the very productive land near
the
> ....
> >Thanks. I'm really not happy with the subsidy, but there has to be some
> >economic incentive to the farmer to keep his land in agricultural
> >production. What are your thoughts on this?
>
> I don't have enough knowledge to know how to deal with farm parity.
> No specific thoughts. But it has to balance out with the physical world.
>
> >A friend of mine from Norway tells me there are typically something like
> >5,000 competitors at their national rifle competition and that it is
carried
> >on national TV for its course.
>
> That sounds about right, you might check with Martin.
>
> >I bet it is. Have fun.
>
> Having fun in Santa Fe New Mexico.
> Have to meet with a few netters while here.
>
>
> BTW Mark, I'm one of those Sierra Club Life Members.
BTW Gene, don't get your feelings hurt, not all Sierra Clubbers are
Econazis. I was in the SC for years and got sick of their political
bullshit. I don't agree with you on a lot of things, but you are a decent
guy - and fun to talk to!
>
Eugene Miya
In article <9l236.3836$1%2.18...@sjc-read.news.verio.net>,
Mark McGilvray <mcgi...@ns.net> wrote:
>"Eugene Miya" <eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> wrote in message
>news:3a4c11f8$1...@news.ucsc.edu...
>> Biathlon.
>
>I don't compete in biathlon, so I don't follow it.
The best the US had fielded has been perhaps Lyle Nelson used used to
live in the Donner Pass area. He was very optimistic to try to get
talented skiiers to pick the activity up. I have reasonable Nordic
technique (before skating), but it's a race, face it, I have short legs.
>I am not aware of Soviet snipers with anti-tank rifles, but their likely
>were. The 14.5mm anti-tank rifle was thoroughly inadequate against the later
>model German tanks. The main problems with these were weight, lousy sights,
>not very accurate, and a muzzle signature that would identify the shooter a
>mile away.
Photos of some in the Patton Museum in the Mojave.
Also muzzle flash and a lack of armor plae makes one a good sitting duck.
>> >How about common sense and solid science?
>>
>> Science isn't about facts so much as process.
>
>Oh, I'm not sure some disciplines that don't quadruple their knowlwdge every
>6 months aren't concerned with their objective basis, facts, if you will.
I won't take us down a discussion of Moore's law.
>American agriculture is doing fine, it's most persistent nemesis being
>economics. There is always room for improvement, but it's OK. I am not sure
>what an opponent of global warming is - it's a natural phenomenon. Are there
>opponents of gravity? All the one's I know have suffered serious injury for
>their disbelief. There ar two flavors of global warming, that which occurs
>through the cycles of our sun's activity, and the bunk doomsday scenario
>that industrial processes and "greenhouse" emissions are going to make
>people "shrimp on the barbie". In other words, one is real, one is a
>bogeyman of junk science. Common sense is what people make of it. Science is
>often what some political ideology makes of it. How does "scientific
>socialism" sound, just for a laugh?
Yeah, I'm not impressed by ecofeminism for instance.
I gave aquaculture, not agriculture as an example (like raising trout
and salmon). Agriculture is living through a golden period the problem
is and will be insect resistance which Carson and others wrote about.
The natural phenomena is greenhouse gases, that's the mechanism of
global warming. Forget doomsdays, even John McCarthy over in s.e.
is slowly coming around, in John's words, the last time I spent some
time with him was even saying, "there might be something there."
I'll give you two nice quotes about common sense:
Is there such as thing as common sense?
Oh sure, but I wouldn't trust it if I were you.
Common sense is just ordinary thinking.
It varies from culture to culture and reflects more the progress of
a particular society rather than the basic truth. Common sense
has been responsible for people thinking that the Earth was a flat disk,
that the Sun and planets revolve around it, and that the stars only come
out at night.
Marilyn vos Savant
...the common sense notion that physical quantities like
position, speed, and rate of rotation should be
both well defined and continuously variable.
But common sense is just another name for the prejudices we are brought up with.
Common sense might led us to expect quantities like energy be continuous.
Stephen Hawking, March 6, 1998, The White House, CSPAN
>> BTW Mark, I'm one of those Sierra Club Life Members.
>
>BTW Gene, don't get your feelings hurt, not all Sierra Clubbers are
>Econazis. I was in the SC for years and got sick of their political
>bullshit. I don't agree with you on a lot of things, but you are a decent
>guy - and fun to talk to!
Feeling's aren't hurt Mark. I'm not one much to put stock in emotions.
Dave Brower was a friend, and what he did to politicize the Club had
mixed blessings. There are some very strong "opponents." The Loyal
Opposition: the motor bike guys (the mountain bike guys are push overs
compared to them), I work with one, and exchange fun email with others.
The people in this group barely see the strong ones, but they take
intelligence from the posters in this group, and they use other groups to
organize their monitoring, very similar to how the real Big boys do it
between nations (real hard ball). Most of the "environmentalists" in
this group couldn't hold a candle to a guy like John McCarthy.
John and I can continue to disagree, for instance, but that's doesn't mean
I don't respect his intellect (been to John's house, see him every so
often in the Gates Building at Stanford). Most of the people in the
group have no idea that one of John's wives died on Annapurna (r.b.
relevance).
Watching for the next amusing thing Mel has to say, I wonder if Mel is
bucking for the second Clayton Cramer prize.
Take care Mark.
Mark McGilvray
> Hey Mark,
>
> In article <9l236.3836$1%2.18...@sjc-read.news.verio.net>,
> Mark McGilvray <mcgi...@ns.net> wrote:
> >"Eugene Miya" <eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> wrote in message
> >news:3a4c11f8$1...@news.ucsc.edu...
> >> Biathlon.
> >
> >I don't compete in biathlon, so I don't follow it.
>
> The best the US had fielded has been perhaps Lyle Nelson used used to
> live in the Donner Pass area. He was very optimistic to try to get
> talented skiiers to pick the activity up. I have reasonable Nordic
> technique (before skating), but it's a race, face it, I have short legs.
It's all I can do to get enough time to shoot 1000yd prone competition. I
keep pretending I'm going to do enough downhill that I regain my modest
former proficiency, and never seem to do so. I am a komplete klutz on nordic
gear. You are absolutely right about biathlon being a race. Training for it
is serious business and time consuming even if you live in ski country. I'm
getting back into large format photography and this eats up lots of time,
however enjoyably. My dogs have just told me they will kill me if I don't
take them hunting soon. Why are there only 24 hours in a day?
>
> >I am not aware of Soviet snipers with anti-tank rifles, but their likely
> >were. The 14.5mm anti-tank rifle was thoroughly inadequate against the
later
> >model German tanks. The main problems with these were weight, lousy
sights,
> >not very accurate, and a muzzle signature that would identify the shooter
a
> >mile away.
>
> Photos of some in the Patton Museum in the Mojave.
> Also muzzle flash and a lack of armor plae makes one a good sitting duck.
I just read a good book on the battle of Kursk in WWII, which says the 14.5
mm anti-tank rifle was the only anti-tank infantry weapon the soviets had,
ignoring satchell charges, mines, and molotov cocktails. There were zillions
of them made and I'm sure bored red army anti-tank gunners were delighted to
zap fascist troops, rather that shoot at a panzer that would likely punch
their ticket.
>
> >> >How about common sense and solid science?
> >>
> >> Science isn't about facts so much as process.
> >
> >Oh, I'm not sure some disciplines that don't quadruple their knowlwdge
every
> >6 months aren't concerned with their objective basis, facts, if you will.
>
> I won't take us down a discussion of Moore's law.
If you do, please refresh my memory on what Moore's law is. Is it state, or
federal?
>
> >American agriculture is doing fine, it's most persistent nemesis being
> >economics. There is always room for improvement, but it's OK. I am not
sure
> >what an opponent of global warming is - it's a natural phenomenon. Are
there
> >opponents of gravity? All the one's I know have suffered serious injury
for
> >their disbelief. There ar two flavors of global warming, that which
occurs
> >through the cycles of our sun's activity, and the bunk doomsday scenario
> >that industrial processes and "greenhouse" emissions are going to make
> >people "shrimp on the barbie". In other words, one is real, one is a
> >bogeyman of junk science. Common sense is what people make of it. Science
is
> >often what some political ideology makes of it. How does "scientific
> >socialism" sound, just for a laugh?
>
> Yeah, I'm not impressed by ecofeminism for instance.
>
> I gave aquaculture, not agriculture as an example (like raising trout
> and salmon).
I must have misread. Another "senior moment?"
Agriculture is living through a golden period the problem
> is and will be insect resistance which Carson and others wrote about.
> The natural phenomena is greenhouse gases, that's the mechanism of
> global warming.
I think a rather insignificant component in the scheme of things. As a
prominent astrophysicist has noted, the sun is the most prominent energy
source that affects earth's temperature. Why does everyone seem to ignore
this and look everywhere else for an explanation of "global warming?" I
think she's right. Some millions of years ago the earth's CO2 level was
something like 6%. Earth was warmer, but the difference is insignificant
compared to what the so-called atmospheric models predict, making them
somewhat of a laughingstock, despite the rhetoric and political stock some
demagogues have invested in this later day Piltdown Man. In fact, the earth
will get warmer, our sun will become a nova, and we will be "shrimp on the
barbie". I'm going to stock up on SPF one zillion sun screen, write an
apocalyptic book, and start a cult. Maybe my premise will be, "stop the
earth! we need more CO2 for the plants to produce oxygen, or we're all gonna
die!" Membership dues are negotiable, but would permit my followers to
partake of wisdom such as this, for a reasonable endowment!
Forget doomsdays, even John McCarthy over in s.e.
You lost me, Gene. I don't know who JM is, nor what s.e. is.
> is slowly coming around, in John's words, the last time I spent some
> time with him was even saying, "there might be something there."
Where?
>
> I'll give you two nice quotes about common sense:
OK, but before you get started, let me say common sense means something more
that preconception and prejudice.
Without sounding preachy, I would say "do unto others as you would have them
do unto you", is common sense.
In a more secular vein, "most people go through life with a bag over their
heads."
>
> Is there such as thing as common sense?
> Oh sure, but I wouldn't trust it if I were you.
> Common sense is just ordinary thinking.
> It varies from culture to culture and reflects more the progress of
> a particular society rather than the basic truth. Common sense
> has been responsible for people thinking that the Earth was a flat disk,
> that the Sun and planets revolve around it, and that the stars only come
> out at night.
> Marilyn vos Savant
>
> ...the common sense notion that physical quantities like
> position, speed, and rate of rotation should be
> both well defined and continuously variable.
> But common sense is just another name for the prejudices we are brought up
with.
> Common sense might led us to expect quantities like energy be continuous.
> Stephen Hawking, March 6, 1998, The White House, CSPAN
I'm now armed with Bartlett's...
"Nothing astonishes men so much as common sense and plain dealing."
-Ralph Waldo Emerson
"Common sense is not so common."
-Voltaire
I think common sense is much more than adherence to the road well travelled.
>
>
> >> BTW Mark, I'm one of those Sierra Club Life Members.
> >
> >BTW Gene, don't get your feelings hurt, not all Sierra Clubbers are
> >Econazis. I was in the SC for years and got sick of their political
> >bullshit. I don't agree with you on a lot of things, but you are a decent
> >guy - and fun to talk to!
>
> Feeling's aren't hurt Mark. I'm not one much to put stock in emotions.
> Dave Brower was a friend, and what he did to politicize the Club had
> mixed blessings. There are some very strong "opponents." The Loyal
> Opposition: the motor bike guys (the mountain bike guys are push overs
> compared to them), I work with one, and exchange fun email with others.
> The people in this group barely see the strong ones, but they take
> intelligence from the posters in this group, and they use other groups to
> organize their monitoring, very similar to how the real Big boys do it
> between nations (real hard ball). Most of the "environmentalists" in
> this group couldn't hold a candle to a guy like John McCarthy.
> John and I can continue to disagree, for instance, but that's doesn't mean
> I don't respect his intellect (been to John's house, see him every so
> often in the Gates Building at Stanford). Most of the people in the
> group have no idea that one of John's wives died on Annapurna (r.b.
> relevance).
My main complaint with "the movement" is it's extreme politicisation,
marriage to junk science, and profoundly socialist and totalitarian
philosophy - of course, I'm painting with a broad brush on a small canvas,
but this is what I despise. The "movement" hasn't a care in the world what
kind of economic harm it does to people, nor does it hesitate at
proscription of property rights in its "green is red, red is green" world. I
dislike totalitarianism of any stripe. I have no gripe with some group
buying land to "protect" it ( for want of a better term), but I refuse to
accept confiscation by EIR, government fiat, or any other proscriptive
process wherein a property owner's rights are abrogated without
compensation. On the junk science end of environmentalism's via dolorosa,
books like "Earth in the Balance", aka "Mein Planet", would be merely
laughable demagoguery, if people didn't elevate this tripe to "common sense"
status, something I find truly frightening.
It's a shame when someone buys the farm having fun in the mountains. People
forget climbing, skiing, etc. are more or less dangerous. I used to be able
to ski most single black diamond runs (no double blacks, thank you) and was
a decent downhill skiier. I did some randonee' stuff and decided I should
solo traverse the White Mountains in eastern CA - one of my favorite places.
To make a long story short, I bit off more than I could chew, in two
respects. I was really concerned about my diminished skiing prowess and my
ability to escape injury. I also decided I was too young to die. I bailed
out after one day on the boards and decided to apply what I call the
Kamikaze test to all future solo adventures. It has served me well. The "no
fear" mentality gets a lot of people killed. A little fear and a reality
check can save a lot of grief. A friend of mine climbed the classic route on
the Eiger North Face some years ago and said conditions were worse than he
could believe possible. He partnered with some hotshot, whose name I have
forgotten, and said he would still be on the mountain but for his partner's
ability and willingness to climb verglas on "virtual pro". He has cooled his
jets since this adventure, but still has lots of fun. Me? I'm a regular fun
hog.
>
> Watching for the next amusing thing Mel has to say, I wonder if Mel is
> bucking for the second Clayton Cramer prize.
>
> Take care Mark.
>
Take care Gene & dodge the avalanches!
LuddLite
Mark McGilvray wrote:
>
> I think (greenhouse gases) a rather insignificant component in the scheme of things. As a
> prominent astrophysicist has noted, the sun is the most prominent energy
> source that affects earth's temperature. Why does everyone seem to ignore
> this and look everywhere else for an explanation of "global warming?"
Not many overlook the sun, Mark. There *are reasons to be considered
that are obviously beyond your grasp.
> OK, but before you get started, let me say common sense means something more
> that preconception and prejudice.
> Without sounding preachy, I would say "do unto others as you would have them
> do unto you", is common sense.
> In a more secular vein, "most people go through life with a bag over their
> heads."
You gotta be kidding!! Talk about the pan calling the kettle black!
> My main complaint with "the movement" is it's extreme politicisation,
> marriage to junk science, and profoundly socialist and totalitarian
> philosophy - of course, I'm painting with a broad brush on a small canvas,
> but this is what I despise. The "movement" hasn't a care in the world what
> kind of economic harm it does to people, nor does it hesitate at
> proscription of property rights in its "green is red, red is green" world. I
> dislike totalitarianism of any stripe.
But you have no problem touting the Republican Party line of crap.
On the junk science end of environmentalism's via dolorosa,
> books like "Earth in the Balance", aka "Mein Planet", would be merely
> laughable demagoguery, if people didn't elevate this tripe to "common sense"
> status, something I find truly frightening.
And we should find your take on things the epitome of reason, common
sense, and cutting edge science? Yeah, right.
LuddLite
Pete Hickey
In article <ZUq36.4013$1%2.19...@sjc-read.news.verio.net>,
Mark McGilvray <mcgi...@ns.net> wrote:
>It's all I can do to get enough time to shoot 1000yd prone competition. I
> You are absolutely right about biathlon being a race. Training for it
With an odd twist. You have to aim and shoot accurately while your
heart is going at 90% max, and you're breathing hard, deep, and fast.
Kinda shows the military inflence.
> Training for it
>is serious business and time consuming even if you live in ski country.
Got a local olympian around here. Darn good skier. real fast.
Mark McGilvray
or such, but the actual event is more based on hunting than military
training & tactics.
"Pete Hickey" <pe...@bitman.uottawa.ca.DELETE.ME> wrote in message
news:fIG36.717$0k1....@wagner.videotron.net...
Eugene Miya
Mark McGilvray <mcgi...@ns.net> wrote:
>The rifles used are generally standardized upon the national military round,
Mostly light .22s. They mostly have those low recoil target guns.
>or such, but the actual event is more based on hunting than military
>training & tactics.
True.
I'm waiting for Markus or some of the other Nordics to chime in.
Eugene Miya
Mark McGilvray <mcgi...@ns.net> wrote:
>> >> Biathlon.
>
>It's all I can do to get enough time to shoot 1000yd prone competition. I
>keep pretending I'm going to do enough downhill that I regain my modest
>former proficiency, and never seem to do so. I am a komplete klutz on nordic
>gear.
That's just practice. The biggest problem learning skiing in the US
is the misapplication of media by things like the Olympics.
>You are absolutely right about biathlon being a race. Training for it
>is serious business and time consuming even if you live in ski country. I'm
>getting back into large format photography and this eats up lots of time,
>however enjoyably. My dogs have just told me they will kill me if I don't
>take them hunting soon. Why are there only 24 hours in a day?
The Babylonians decided on the 24 hr. day. I am told that paralleism
will solve all these problems, but I am somewhat skeptical.
Makes it mard to pick up kayaking.
>> >The 14.5mm anti-tank rifle was thoroughly inadequate against the
>> >later model German tanks.
>> Also muzzle flash and a lack of armor plate makes one a good sitting duck.
>
>I just read a good book on the battle of Kursk in WWII, which says the 14.5
>mm anti-tank rifle was the only anti-tank infantry weapon the soviets had,
>ignoring satchell charges, mines, and molotov cocktails. There were zillions
>of them made and I'm sure bored red army anti-tank gunners were delighted to
>zap fascist troops, rather that shoot at a panzer that would likely punch
>their ticket.
I think I met a survivor from Kursk (German). His daughter married a
mentor's son. It is not fun being infantry surrounded by armor in
particular if it also has supporting infantry with it. The best
(cheapest) offense tends to be another tank (preferably with air
support).
>> >> >How about common sense and solid science?
>> >> Science isn't about facts so much as process.
>> >Oh, I'm not sure some disciplines that don't quadruple their knowlwdge
>every
>> >6 months aren't concerned with their objective basis, facts, if you will.
>> I won't take us down a discussion of Moore's law.
>
>If you do, please refresh my memory on what Moore's law is. Is it state, or
>federal?
Moore's law is the typical reference given about faster than linear
increases in data processing (actually memory). It's more an empirical
statement of economics in a way.
It's actually not knowledge. At best it's data, with some lesser
increases in information and maybe a tiny bit of knowledge. The
appropriate reference is:
%A Gordon E. Moore
%Z Director of R&D Labs at Fairchild Semiconductor
http://www.intel.com/intel/annual96/bio_moor.htm
%T Cramming more components onto integrated circuits
%J Electronics
%D 19 April 1965
%P 114-117
%K Moore's law, original reference,
%X http://www.businessweek.com/1997/25/b353225.htm
%X From the article:
The complexity for minimum component costs has increased at a rate of
roughly a factor of two per year. Certainly over the short term this
rate can be expected to continue, if not to increase. Over the longer term,
the rate of increase is a bit more uncertain, although there is no
reason to believe it will not remain nearly constant for at least 10 years.
That means by 1975, the number of components per integrated circuit
for minimum cost will be 65,000.
%X I believe that such a large circuit can be built on a single wafer.
It's basically the ability to reproduce a finer and finer line (sub-micron).
>> >American agriculture is doing fine, ...
>> I gave aquaculture, not agriculture as an example (like raising trout
>> and salmon).
>
>I must have misread. Another "senior moment?"
That's okay, we all have those.
>> Agriculture is living through a golden period the problem
>> is and will be insect resistance which Carson and others wrote about.
>> The natural phenomena is greenhouse gases, that's the mechanism of
>> global warming.
>
>I think a rather insignificant component in the scheme of things. As a
My advice to you from years of working on atmospheric codes is that it
is significant.
>prominent astrophysicist has noted, the sun is the most prominent energy
>source that affects earth's temperature. Why does everyone seem to ignore
>this and look everywhere else for an explanation of "global warming?"
It's only the input. The problem is the heat out escaping the earth.
The sun is largely regarded as a constant (Langleys per ...) or
stellar evolution along what's called a Hertzsprung-Russell diagram
which says that we have millions and billions of years ignoring minor
variation.
>I think she's right. Some millions of years ago the earth's CO2 level was
>something like 6%.
I'm not certain that it was ever that high. I'm not certain what the
off the top of my head what the problem levels of CO2 are, but as you
approach 10% which 6 does, you incur all kinds of problems (like primate
might now survvie).
>Earth was warmer, but the difference is insignificant
>compared to what the so-called atmospheric models predict, making them
>somewhat of a laughingstock, despite the rhetoric and political stock some
>demagogues have invested in this later day Piltdown Man. In fact, the earth
>will get warmer, our sun will become a nova, and we will be "shrimp on the
>barbie". I'm going to stock up on SPF one zillion sun screen, write an
>apocalyptic book, and start a cult. Maybe my premise will be, "stop the
>earth! we need more CO2 for the plants to produce oxygen, or we're all gonna
We're cutting down the trees.
>die!" Membership dues are negotiable, but would permit my followers to
>partake of wisdom such as this, for a reasonable endowment!
>
>Forget doomsdays, even John McCarthy over in s.e.
>
>You lost me, Gene. I don't know who JM is, nor what s.e. is.
s.e.: sci.environment (not much sci, should be talk.environment).
John. Let's see, how do I describe John. John briefly posted in r.b.
during it's earliest days in the 1980s. He is still occasionally seen
here in cross-posts between r.b.,s.e. John is in his 70s, got his PhD
in Mathematics from MIT and along with Marvin Minsky are the two men
regarded as the fathers of coining the term artifical intelligence.
John is the father of LISP and a believer in logic as a tool for
"common sense" reasoning. The latter is an AI term and not necessarily
directly related to common sense (ask an AI if the earth is round and
how it arrived at that, and that's unresolved in Marvin's book).
John is one of the reasons why people like Gore and Gingerich said that
a person could learn and use the net to have people's kids learn from
the world's experts. John is one of the few remaining real experts, and
one of the few people what you will find on the net being here longer
than me. John is a Republican conservative. Guessing, his web site
would be something like www.cs.stanford.edu/~jmc. John is without
question one of the 100 most important computer people on the net alive
in the US. One doesn't have to agree with John to like or dislike him.
However, John can't follow everything. He has to bow to empirical
studies like Keeling's when scientists take data. Keeling is the guy to
measures CO2 and John has gained respect for im.
>> is slowly coming around, in John's words, the last time I spent some
>> time with him was even saying, "there might be something there."
>
>Where?
In the atmosphere.
>> I'll give you two nice quotes about common sense:
>
>OK, but before you get started, let me say common sense means something more
>that preconception and prejudice.
>Without sounding preachy, I would say "do unto others as you would have them
>do unto you", is common sense.
This is the basic foundation of justice.
The problems are things like: scale (for instance, mass murder), or
non-human problems: floods, animals, etc.
>In a more secular vein, "most people go through life with a bag over their
>heads."
This is our, humanity's, general condition.
>I'm now armed with Bartlett's...
>
>"Nothing astonishes men so much as common sense and plain dealing."
>-Ralph Waldo Emerson
Covers men, see the comment above.
>"Common sense is not so common."
>-Voltaire
That's it.
I knew I should have visited his Museum in Geneva while I was there.
>I think common sense is much more than adherence to the road well travelled.
There is a long history of common, human experience.
The problem is that the world is more than our five senses.
I regularly collect low levels of visible light not seen by the human eye,
I count gamma, and UV, and IR, and use radar from time to time.
It (CS) has advantages, it has limits.
>My main complaint with "the movement" is it's extreme politicisation,
Yeah that was an aspect of Dave for ya.
>marriage to junk science, and profoundly socialist and totalitarian
>philosophy - of course, I'm painting with a broad brush on a small canvas,
That was an unfortunate consequence with part of the social rebellion
which occurred at the time of the Vietnam War. Science has had problems
with certain economics pressures (e.g., BSE, insect and drug resistance,
etc.)
>but this is what I despise. The "movement" hasn't a care in the world what
>kind of economic harm it does to people, nor does it hesitate at
>proscription of property rights in its "green is red, red is green" world.
That's largely because the economic has not cared about the
environmental problems created in the world, and the various degrees of
foot dragging people have done. Having visited West Virginia and other
areas, it's going to be interesting hwo US property rights will fly over
the rest of the world. The English are changing their land property rights.
>I dislike totalitarianism of any stripe. I have no gripe with some group
>buying land to "protect" it ( for want of a better term), but I refuse to
>accept confiscation by EIR, government fiat, or any other proscriptive
Manifest Destiny, the Monroe Doctrine, buying up land for free ways...
>process wherein a property owner's rights are abrogated without
>compensation. On the junk science end of environmentalism's via dolorosa,
>books like "Earth in the Balance", aka "Mein Planet", would be merely
>laughable demagoguery, if people didn't elevate this tripe to "common sense"
>status, something I find truly frightening.
>
>It's a shame when someone buys the farm having fun in the mountains. People
>forget climbing, skiing, etc. are more or less dangerous. I used to be able
>to ski most single black diamond runs (no double blacks, thank you) and was
Some of that is media, some social.
>a decent downhill skiier. I did some randonee' stuff and decided I should
>solo traverse the White Mountains in eastern CA - one of my favorite places.
>To make a long story short, I bit off more than I could chew, in two
>respects. I was really concerned about my diminished skiing prowess and my
>ability to escape injury. I also decided I was too young to die. I bailed
>out after one day on the boards and decided to apply what I call the
>Kamikaze test to all future solo adventures. It has served me well. The "no
>fear" mentality gets a lot of people killed. A little fear and a reality
>check can save a lot of grief. A friend of mine climbed the classic route on
>the Eiger North Face some years ago and said conditions were worse than he
>could believe possible. He partnered with some hotshot, whose name I have
>forgotten, and said he would still be on the mountain but for his partner's
>ability and willingness to climb verglas on "virtual pro". He has cooled his
>jets since this adventure, but still has lots of fun. Me? I'm a regular fun
>hog.
There are more fun climbs than the Eiger North Face.
Was just there. Just got Anderl's book; now I have to take up French to
read it, because it hasn't been published in English.
>Take care Gene & dodge the avalanches!
I know that I don't need too many more. 3 short rides were enough.
Mark McGilvray
Maybe I've got this confused with some other nordic/shooting event. This is
a great day for confusion. I was sure they used big bore rifles, sort of
like the 300meter intl comp. I guess the Olys have dropped all high power
rifle competition - dirt bags!
"Eugene Miya" <eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> wrote in message
news:3a50019c$1...@news.ucsc.edu...
Mark McGilvray
"Eugene Miya" <eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> wrote in message
news:3a500da3$1...@news.ucsc.edu...
> In article <ZUq36.4013$1%2.19...@sjc-read.news.verio.net>,
> Mark McGilvray <mcgi...@ns.net> wrote:
> >> >> Biathlon.
> >
> >It's all I can do to get enough time to shoot 1000yd prone competition. I
> >keep pretending I'm going to do enough downhill that I regain my modest
> >former proficiency, and never seem to do so. I am a komplete klutz on
nordic
> >gear.
>
> That's just practice.
My point exactly. I'm pretty much maxed for time.
The biggest problem learning skiing in the US
> is the misapplication of media by things like the Olympics.
>
> >You are absolutely right about biathlon being a race. Training for it
> >is serious business and time consuming even if you live in ski country.
I'm
> >getting back into large format photography and this eats up lots of time,
> >however enjoyably. My dogs have just told me they will kill me if I don't
> >take them hunting soon. Why are there only 24 hours in a day?
>
> The Babylonians decided on the 24 hr. day. I am told that paralleism
> will solve all these problems, but I am somewhat skeptical.
I knew it! Babylonians! I'm definitely skeptical.
>
> Makes it mard to pick up kayaking.
>
> >> >The 14.5mm anti-tank rifle was thoroughly inadequate against the
> >> >later model German tanks.
> >> Also muzzle flash and a lack of armor plate makes one a good sitting
duck.
> >
> >I just read a good book on the battle of Kursk in WWII, which says the
14.5
> >mm anti-tank rifle was the only anti-tank infantry weapon the soviets
had,
> >ignoring satchell charges, mines, and molotov cocktails. There were
zillions
> >of them made and I'm sure bored red army anti-tank gunners were delighted
to
> >zap fascist troops, rather that shoot at a panzer that would likely punch
> >their ticket.
>
> I think I met a survivor from Kursk (German). His daughter married a
> mentor's son. It is not fun being infantry surrounded by armor in
> particular if it also has supporting infantry with it. The best
> (cheapest) offense tends to be another tank (preferably with air
> support).
A friend of mine has a German girl friend, speaks Russian fluently, and
knows both Russia and Germany well for an Irish American lad. He has spoken
with many veterans from both sides and the stories are fascinating.
OK. That Moore's Law! Is resolution an appropriate analogy?
>
>
> >> >American agriculture is doing fine, ...
> >> I gave aquaculture, not agriculture as an example (like raising trout
> >> and salmon).
> >
> >I must have misread. Another "senior moment?"
>
> That's okay, we all have those.
>
> >> Agriculture is living through a golden period the problem
> >> is and will be insect resistance which Carson and others wrote about.
> >> The natural phenomena is greenhouse gases, that's the mechanism of
> >> global warming.
> >
> >I think a rather insignificant component in the scheme of things. As a
>
> My advice to you from years of working on atmospheric codes is that it
> is significant.
Not to be snippy, but codes and modelling do not necessarily reflect the
reality of thermodynamics as it pertains to global atmospheric conditions in
general, or, more specifically, predictability of what is a probabilistic
process. I studied physics at UCB and have managed to retain a
better-than-laymans grasp of the subject. We can certainly disagree over
significance.
>
> >prominent astrophysicist has noted, the sun is the most prominent energy
> >source that affects earth's temperature. Why does everyone seem to ignore
> >this and look everywhere else for an explanation of "global warming?"
>
> It's only the input.
It is one of several inputs. Radiation from the earth's core provides
significant heat, as does dissipation of the core's residual heat.
The problem is the heat out escaping the earth.
> The sun is largely regarded as a constant (Langleys per ...) or
> stellar evolution along what's called a Hertzsprung-Russell diagram
> which says that we have millions and billions of years ignoring minor
> variation.
Hertzsprung-Russell is a pretty dull knife for surgery and is itself highly
statistical. There are many variations and phenomenon it cannot explain.
>
> >I think she's right. Some millions of years ago the earth's CO2 level was
> >something like 6%.
>
> I'm not certain that it was ever that high. I'm not certain what the
> off the top of my head what the problem levels of CO2 are, but as you
> approach 10% which 6 does, you incur all kinds of problems (like primate
> might now survvie).
I remember reading it, but will have to defer citation until I remember
where. The timeline was 100million years ago, order of magnitude. You are
right about that level of CO2 for modern primates/mammals. It would likely
harm them.
The studies I have seen and heard quoted are inconclusive at best. I would
look at something legitimate with as open a mind as I can muster. I am
terribly biased toward confirmation from physicists before donning my global
warming aluminum foil hat made by mathematicians and computer scientists.
There is a huge gamut to the electromagnetic radiation spectrum.
>
> >My main complaint with "the movement" is it's extreme politicisation,
>
> Yeah that was an aspect of Dave for ya.
>
> >marriage to junk science, and profoundly socialist and totalitarian
> >philosophy - of course, I'm painting with a broad brush on a small
canvas,
>
> That was an unfortunate consequence with part of the social rebellion
> which occurred at the time of the Vietnam War. Science has had problems
> with certain economics pressures (e.g., BSE, insect and drug resistance,
> etc.)
True. My main complaint is that this otherwise healthy tendency of Americans
to social rebellion has become a rebellion against rationality. Though many
in "the movement" would be apalled, they are quite puritanical (not as in
prudish) in their world view.
>
> >but this is what I despise. The "movement" hasn't a care in the world
what
> >kind of economic harm it does to people, nor does it hesitate at
> >proscription of property rights in its "green is red, red is green"
world.
>
> That's largely because the economic has not cared about the
> environmental problems created in the world, and the various degrees of
> foot dragging people have done. Having visited West Virginia and other
> areas, it's going to be interesting hwo US property rights will fly over
> the rest of the world. The English are changing their land property
rights.
The Brits have had a much stronger state planning aspect to their property
rights tha the US.
My point exactly. Isn't that thing intimidating from Grindelwald?
Just got Anderl's book; now I have to take up French to
> read it, because it hasn't been published in English.
I hope your French is better than my German.
>
> >Take care Gene & dodge the avalanches!
>
> I know that I don't need too many more. 3 short rides were enough.
Happy New Year!
>
Eugene Miya
Mark McGilvray <mcgi...@ns.net> wrote:
>Well, I'll be darned. That surprises me they use small bore in this event.
>Maybe I've got this confused with some other nordic/shooting event. This is
>a great day for confusion. I was sure they used big bore rifles, sort of
>like the 300meter intl comp. I guess the Olys have dropped all high power
>rifle competition - dirt bags!
I tend to view it as specialization.
It's very similar to what happened to bicycling and 10-speed (now more)
road bikes.
Now the Swiss train their infantry to shoot at 300 M using 7.62mm.
Mark McGilvray
like good optics and long range shooting. Smallbore is an exacting
discipline and the rifles used are very accurate, as is the ammunition and
the shooter. A fellow I shoot with put 10 shots in .10" group at 50 yards
with his Anschutz prone rifle and Ely Tenex ammo. I told him he was full of
it when he mentioned this feat modestly. After seeing the target and hearing
numerous witnesses to this, I ate crow. The up side of small bore is that
rifles and ammo are available off-the-shelf and it is not necessary to load
one's own ammo (nor possible with smallbore).
There is a whole discipline, Palma, devoted to shooting the .308 (7.62 Nato)
at 800, 900, & 1000 yds. The various shooting disciplines do evolve
equipment exactly like bicycles evolve to meet their intended use and are
equally specialized.
Eugene Miya
Mark McGilvray <mcgi...@ns.net> wrote:
>I'm not a smallbore shooter and refuse to shoot iron sights on a rifle. I
>like good optics and long range shooting. Smallbore is an exacting
>discipline and the rifles used are very accurate, as is the ammunition and
>the shooter.
Breathing control.
I came from a family of archers apparently.
We weren't hunters; we were samuari, soldiers, so our targets were
likely humans.
>A fellow I shoot with put 10 shots in .10" group at 50 yards
>with his Anschutz prone rifle and Ely Tenex ammo. I told him he was full of
>it when he mentioned this feat modestly. After seeing the target and hearing
>numerous witnesses to this, I ate crow. The up side of small bore is that
>rifles and ammo are available off-the-shelf and it is not necessary to load
>one's own ammo (nor possible with smallbore).
>
>There is a whole discipline, Palma, devoted to shooting the .308 (7.62 Nato)
>at 800, 900, & 1000 yds. The various shooting disciplines do evolve
>equipment exactly like bicycles evolve to meet their intended use and are
>equally specialized.
Those are rec.hunting and rec.guns FAQ topics: range and accuracy.
They appeared in r.b. a couple of times, too.
Eugene Miya
Samuari never drink alcohol on watch. ;^)
I was driving back from Santa Fe (stopped by Winslow, nice statue of
Jackson Browne on the corner, just got the photos back).
"Eugene Miya" <eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> wrote in message
news:3a500da3$1...@news.ucsc.edu...
....>> >> >> Biathlon.
How do you get to Carnegie Hall?
>> practice.
In article <ZUq36.4013$1%2.19...@sjc-read.news.verio.net>,
Mark McGilvray <mcgi...@ns.net> wrote:
>My point exactly. I'm pretty much maxed for time.
Many of us are.
Priorities of life. I have 250 emails to get to, and all kinds of
meetings, so I won't be posting as much in the future.
...
Mark, you don't have to attribute all this text!
...
>A friend of mine has a German girl friend, speaks Russian fluently, and
>knows both Russia and Germany well for an Irish American lad. He has spoken
>with many veterans from both sides and the stories are fascinating.
My dad as a Legionaire used to take me to VA hospitals (this was about
15 years after WWII). So I have seen a few cases of dismemebered men
(I was in a rest hospital 1.5 years ago recouping from pneumonia and
surgery and I saw bits of a future which await all of us in old age).
One of my uncles who used passed away came back shell shocked.
My Mom was at the fire bombing of Tokyo (120K dead) after she got out of
the US Camps (she was an American born citizen). Dad fought in Northern
Europe in 3rd Army after landing at Utah Beach. It was his other
friends who landed at Omaha Beach and most impressively Pont du Hoc (the
Rangers: 1/3 were casualities). Other friends had parents who were in
Batiaan and Nagasaki (if you want to read about this find My Hitch in Hell
Lester taught at ASU and was Jewish). I also heard Dave Brower tell me
some of his WWII experiences in Northern Italy (something he was not
happy about was his own men shooting prisoners: my Dad even in 3rd Army
approved of this (I was just in Geneva)).
>> >> >> >How about common sense and solid science?
>> >> >> Science isn't about facts so much as process.
>> %A Gordon E. Moore
>> %T Cramming more components onto integrated circuits
>> %J Electronics
>> %D 19 April 1965
>> %P 114-117
>> %K Moore's law, original reference,
>
>OK. That Moore's Law! Is resolution an appropriate analogy?
In general, in today's, society yes.
Most of science is based on what's called reductionism, analysis, breaking
things into component parts and investigating the hell out of them.
90% of science is that. There's a rare 10% in some cases more which is
more synthetic in nature. We are largely here today because of
finer and finer resolution and study. Does reduction have limits and fail?
Yes, even Einstein said not to make things too simple (appropriate level,
whatever that is). Does reductionism irk people: sure does. But we
have few better intellectual tools. It falls apart somewhat in
complex systems, incomplete systems, etc.
>> My advice to you from years of working on atmospheric codes is that it
>> is significant.
>
>Not to be snippy, but codes and modelling do not necessarily reflect the
>reality of thermodynamics as it pertains to global atmospheric conditions in
>general, or, more specifically, predictability of what is a probabilistic
>process. I studied physics at UCB and have managed to retain a
>better-than-laymans grasp of the subject. We can certainly disagree over
>significance.
I think that Ilana Stern would have taken issue, but she decided to
retire. The codes and model aren't a static process. The individual
code or model will be incomplete and inadequate. McCarthy thinks the
physics community is wasting its time studying thermodynamics
and fluid mechanics, but that that's stopped the aerospace firms, NCAR,
NWS, DOE, and others. You should complain Mark! 8^)
>> >an explanation of "global warming?"
>> It's only the input.
>
>It is one of several inputs. Radiation from the earth's core provides
>significant heat, as does dissipation of the core's residual heat.
The interesting thing of radiative transfer is the conversion of
short-wave incoming light from the Sun and how it interacts with the
ocean and the atmosphere to try to radiate out as longer wave IR.
The atmosphere has various interesting wavelength windows.
>The problem is the heat out escaping the earth.
Was this my line or yours?
>> The sun is largely regarded as a constant (Langleys per ...) or
>> stellar evolution along what's called a Hertzsprung-Russell diagram
>> which says that we have millions and billions of years ignoring minor
>> variation.
>
>Hertzsprung-Russell is a pretty dull knife for surgery and is itself highly
>statistical. There are many variations and phenomenon it cannot explain.
It's merely descriptive and not predictive. But it's reflective of the
real universe.
>> In the atmosphere.
>
>The studies I have seen and heard quoted are inconclusive at best. I would
>look at something legitimate with as open a mind as I can muster. I am
>terribly biased toward confirmation from physicists before donning my global
>warming aluminum foil hat made by mathematicians and computer scientists.
Which ones? There's a pretty resonable FAQ over in sci.geo.meteor*
what's his name escapes me at the moment, got him to collect stuff and
do the period post.
Keeling is an atmospheric physicist. Few computer scientists know the
atmosphere.
>> >> common sense:
>>
>> There is a long history of common, human experience.
>> The problem is that the world is more than our five senses.
>> I regularly collect low levels of visible light not seen by the human eye,
>> I count gamma, and UV, and IR, and use radar from time to time.
>> It (CS) has advantages, it has limits.
>
>There is a huge gamut to the electromagnetic radiation spectrum.
We fully agree.
>> >My main complaint with "the movement" is it's extreme politicisation,
>> >marriage to junk science, and profoundly socialist and totalitarian
>> >philosophy - of course, I'm painting with a broad brush on a small
>canvas,
>
>True. My main complaint is that this otherwise healthy tendency of Americans
>to social rebellion has become a rebellion against rationality. Though many
>in "the movement" would be apalled, they are quite puritanical (not as in
>prudish) in their world view.
Well humans and life aren't rational. There's a lot of apparent contradiction.
I had to face a lot of Europeans who wondered why the US elected Bush.
I can state in words, but that has no meaning to them.
>> >economics
>>
>> That's largely because the economic has not cared about the
>> environmental problems created in the world, and the various degrees of
>> foot dragging people have done. Having visited West Virginia and other
>> areas, it's going to be interesting how US property rights will fly over
>> the rest of the world. The English are changing their land property
>rights.
>
>The Brits have had a much stronger state planning aspect to their property
>rights tha the US.
Oh it's not just the Brits (was there in June).
It's also the mechanisms and values of property. I learned a little bit
of this during a Stanford grad class on wine which a friend taught.
Protestants largely give their land to first sons and Catholics divided
estates among children. The problem with these is a growing population.
The smartest thing property owners can do is keep and sheperd as much
public land as possible for non-property owners, failing that, you will
have to deal with harsher measures. What the Brit's are doing as has
been done in other countries like the Nordic countries is give travel rights.
It's a buffer and warning sign.
>> There are more fun climbs than the Eiger North Face.
>My point exactly. Isn't that thing intimidating from Grindelwald?
It's more intimidating from Kleine Schiedegg.
But I think one has to be up on it. I might try the NE ridge with a
decent partner. I went to college with Harlin's son. But I'm more
interested in the NF of the Dru, the NF of the Matterhorn, or maybe the
Grand Jorass.
The most intimidating, oppressive climb/slide show I have ever seen
was George Lowe's and Chris Jones ascent of the NF of North Twin in Canada.
George started the climb with two absolutely new ropes, and they there
shot after six days. Some of it was written up in Ascent. I think
there have been maybe 4 ascents. Unfortunately, George lost his prize
Bell climbing helmet. George is probably the best American climber to
have so far lived and his cousins ran LAS). Nice guy. A physcist.
>> Just got Anderl's book; now I have to take up French to
>> read it, because it hasn't been published in English.
>
>I hope your French is better than my German.
My old man was against his kids learning any foreign language.
His kids were 'Mericans. Period. From his point of view, he wanted
the US to dominate the world. I take a slight broader like "know
your opposition." I took Latin in HS for college entrance (learned more
about the English language than in English classes, also visiting England
and seeing all their spellings in June was enlightening). This year and
last year, I have different perspectives. My ancestors didn't come from
Europe, and I get mistaken for a Japanese tourist (you should have seen
the bus in Lugano crack up when I mispronounced "Manno" closer to "Mannow"
but Japan will suffer more than America). My last day, I approached the
Delta counter in Zurich, and I did the usual thing of Ja and Danke, and
the ticket person said, "Oh you know a little German?" "Very little.
Mostly English and Japanese (very little, table Japanese mostly), which
do you prefer?" It's at that time the German and French speakers' eyes
open up and thank God that they know English. I did have a few people,
a woman on a train in Spiez and a cashier at 3KM above Zermatt try their
Japanese skills on me and that was no problem, and I think they felt good
about that. But the language to watch will be Chinese (as they grow
more and more affluent: this is evident in Europe). The Swiss are a
culture where 40% of the population hikes which is way over anything the
US can say. And don't forget Italian or Spanish. Or Hebrew, or Russian,
or ....
I'm a technologist. I'm more interested in making new words than
"properly" spelling the olds ones. ;^) Color vs. colour. I have copy
editors for that. This is the net, not paper.
>>>Take care Gene & dodge the avalanches!
>> I know that I don't need too many more. 3 short rides were enough.
>Happy New Year!
You, too Mark.
Dean Williams
>
> Now the Swiss train their infantry to shoot at 300 M using 7.62mm.
military round. Their old rifle was 7.5mm, and the new one is 5.6mm.
(As they never thought of joining NATO or the Warsaw Pact, the decided
to have calibres that were not compatible with anyone elses. Neutrality
to the nth degree.) Do you have a source for this, I would like to see
it.
Dean.
Mark McGilvray
"Eugene Miya" <eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> wrote in message
news:3a5532c6$1...@news.ucsc.edu...
> In article <6n546.4305$1%2.21...@sjc-read.news.verio.net>,
> Mark McGilvray <mcgi...@ns.net> wrote:
> >Happy New Years Gene! How about some nice hot saki?
I know I didn't want any alchohol after New Years eve
>
> Samuari never drink alcohol on watch. ;^)
> I was driving back from Santa Fe (stopped by Winslow, nice statue of
> Jackson Browne on the corner, just got the photos back).
>
> >My point exactly. I'm pretty much maxed for time.
>
> Many of us are.
> Priorities of life. I have 250 emails to get to, and all kinds of
> meetings, so I won't be posting as much in the future.
>
> ...
> Mark, you don't have to attribute all this text!
No, I sure don't & apologise for my sloppy posting. Post when you can. I'm
going to cut this into 3 posts.
Mark McGilvray
>
> My dad as a Legionaire used to take me to VA hospitals (this was about
> 15 years after WWII). So I have seen a few cases of dismemebered men
> (I was in a rest hospital 1.5 years ago recouping from pneumonia and
> surgery and I saw bits of a future which await all of us in old age).
It ain't pretty. A visit to a VA hospital should be mandatory for highschool
students. Anyone who thinks war is noble and the path to glory should take a
close look at its survivors.
> One of my uncles who used passed away came back shell shocked.
> My Mom was at the fire bombing of Tokyo (120K dead) after she got out of
> the US Camps (she was an American born citizen).
FDRs gulag was the worst episode of Americam fascism in this century. In
many ways FDR was an American Stalin (I love to needle democrats and FDR
admirers with this). My mom taught at Flintridge Sacred Heart Academy in
Southern CA where the FBI showed up to drag 12 year old Japanese orphan
girls who spoke no English off to the the gulag, in hand cuffs so they
couldn't harm the FBI men. A friend's father owned a drug store and bought
up his Japanese customers' properties for a dollar, before they were
gulagged, and sold it back to them after the war at the same price.
Dad fought in Northern
> Europe in 3rd Army after landing at Utah Beach. It was his other
> friends who landed at Omaha Beach and most impressively Pont du Hoc (the
> Rangers: 1/3 were casualities).
The rangers got clobbered at Pont du Hoc, but took it.
Other friends had parents who were in
> Batiaan and Nagasaki (if you want to read about this find My Hitch in Hell
> Lester taught at ASU and was Jewish).
I always liked "From here to Eternity." A friend's father in law was in
Hiroshima 3days before it was nuked.
I also heard Dave Brower tell me
> some of his WWII experiences in Northern Italy (something he was not
> happy about was his own men shooting prisoners: my Dad even in 3rd Army
> approved of this (I was just in Geneva)).
Yep, happened all the time. Soldiers get really vicious when they see their
friends killed by an enemy. They also have a healthy instinct for self
preservation where it is not possible to watch prisoners and fight. There is
a notion that prisoners aren't worth taking casualties for.
>
>
> My old man was against his kids learning any foreign language.
> His kids were 'Mericans. Period. From his point of view, he wanted
> the US to dominate the world.
I went to junior high and highschool with lots of Japanese American kids
from exactly this kind of family background, Americans all.
I take a slight broader like "know
> your opposition." I took Latin in HS for college entrance (learned more
> about the English language than in English classes, also visiting England
> and seeing all their spellings in June was enlightening).
I knew you are a bright guy, Gene, taking Latin proves it!
This year and
> last year, I have different perspectives. My ancestors didn't come from
> Europe,
Mine left Scotland after having the misfortune to lose a war to the Brits at
Culloden Moor, something we managed to do more often than not.
and I get mistaken for a Japanese tourist (you should have seen
> the bus in Lugano crack up when I mispronounced "Manno" closer to "Mannow"
> but Japan will suffer more than America). My last day, I approached the
> Delta counter in Zurich, and I did the usual thing of Ja and Danke, and
> the ticket person said, "Oh you know a little German?" "Very little.
> Mostly English and Japanese (very little, table Japanese mostly), which
> do you prefer?" It's at that time the German and French speakers' eyes
> open up and thank God that they know English. I did have a few people,
> a woman on a train in Spiez and a cashier at 3KM above Zermatt try their
> Japanese skills on me and that was no problem, and I think they felt good
> about that. But the language to watch will be Chinese (as they grow
> more and more affluent: this is evident in Europe). The Swiss are a
> culture where 40% of the population hikes which is way over anything the
> US can say. And don't forget Italian or Spanish. Or Hebrew, or Russian,
> or ....
Zwei bier, bitte!
Mark McGilvray
> In article <gSL46.4647$1%2.23...@sjc-read.news.verio.net>,
>
> Breathing control.
> I came from a family of archers apparently.
> We weren't hunters; we were samuari, soldiers, so our targets were
> likely humans.
>
> Those are rec.hunting and rec.guns FAQ topics: range and accuracy.
> They appeared in r.b. a couple of times, too.
>
I've not found much of interest in the rec.guns for the 1000yd shooter.
I haven't found much there regarding accuracy either.
Mark McGilvray
> Most of science is based on what's called reductionism, analysis, breaking
> things into component parts and investigating the hell out of them.
> 90% of science is that. There's a rare 10% in some cases more which is
> more synthetic in nature. We are largely here today because of
> finer and finer resolution and study. Does reduction have limits and
fail?
> Yes, even Einstein said not to make things too simple (appropriate level,
> whatever that is). Does reductionism irk people: sure does. But we
> have few better intellectual tools. It falls apart somewhat in
> complex systems, incomplete systems, etc.
>
The only way science makes any progress is by reduction, the assembly of a
problem in manageable dimensions. Only mathematics seems able to defy this.
The truly great leaps in science are no different, only more spectacular
because they view an old problem in a new light, using a new perspective.
The greatest feat in classical dynamics is Newton's formation of the laws of
force and gravitation (which we so thoroughly take as a given today). The
greatest feat in physics is Einstein's formulation of relativity, which
states mass energy equivalence, a constant speed of light, and that
gravitation curves the space-time continuum. We are at the point where some
such radical simplification, or reduction is needed better to explain our
more complex phenomena. Our present tools are likely not adequate.
>
> I think that Ilana Stern would have taken issue, but she decided to
> retire.
I'm sure many would.
The codes and model aren't a static process. The individual
> code or model will be incomplete and inadequate. McCarthy thinks the
> physics community is wasting its time studying thermodynamics
> and fluid mechanics, but that that's stopped the aerospace firms, NCAR,
> NWS, DOE, and others. You should complain Mark! 8^)
I'm sure the hotshots in the field are waiting breathlessly for my input.
This is why McCarthy is a mathematician - this is a field where someone
pulls a rabbit out of the hat quite frequently. I can assure you these
people are not wasting their time. The classical theories of fluid mechanics
and thermodynamics are at a standstill in many respects, until some new
method of analysis is available - a quantum leap in perspective, if you
will.
>
>
> The interesting thing of radiative transfer is the conversion of
> short-wave incoming light from the Sun and how it interacts with the
> ocean and the atmosphere to try to radiate out as longer wave IR.
> The atmosphere has various interesting wavelength windows.
Yes, electromagnetic radiation and thermodynamics are an extremely
complicated interaction in our atmosphere and on earth.
>
> >The problem is the heat out escaping the earth.
>
> Was this my line or yours?
Yours.
>
>
> It's merely descriptive and not predictive. But it's reflective of the
> real universe.
Yes Hertzsprung Russell is descriptive, it's descriptive, but essentially a
statistical tabulation.
>
> >> In the atmosphere.
> >
> >The studies I have seen and heard quoted are inconclusive at best. I
would
> >look at something legitimate with as open a mind as I can muster. I am
> >terribly biased toward confirmation from physicists before donning my
global
> >warming aluminum foil hat made by mathematicians and computer scientists.
>
> Which ones? There's a pretty resonable FAQ over in sci.geo.meteor*
> what's his name escapes me at the moment, got him to collect stuff and
> do the period post.
> I'm not throwing rocks at any one, just skeptical of the process by which
many of these claims are supported. I have a hunch most are driven by a lust
for gov't grant funding. OK, I'll go look for it. Physicists are as guilty
of bogus science in this respect as others. Actually, I will cast a stone at
Carl Sagan, whom I consider a fraud, insofar as his quack atmospheric model
goes.
> Keeling is an atmospheric physicist. Few computer scientists know the
> atmosphere.
Few atmospheric scientists know it well either.
Mark McGilvray
>
> Well humans and life aren't rational. There's a lot of apparent
contradiction.
> I had to face a lot of Europeans who wondered why the US elected Bush.
> I can state in words, but that has no meaning to them.
I have limited sympathy for european kibbitzing in our politics. They have a
checkered past which doesn't pass the smell test.
>
> >> >economics
> >>
> >> That's largely because the economic has not cared about the
> >> environmental problems created in the world, and the various degrees of
> >> foot dragging people have done. Having visited West Virginia and other
> >> areas, it's going to be interesting how US property rights will fly
over
> >> the rest of the world. The English are changing their land property
> >rights.
The other nations can do as they please with their sovereign territory.
> >
> >The Brits have had a much stronger state planning aspect to their
property
> >rights tha the US.
>
> Oh it's not just the Brits (was there in June).
Definitely not.
>
> It's also the mechanisms and values of property. I learned a little bit
> of this during a Stanford grad class on wine which a friend taught.
> Protestants largely give their land to first sons and Catholics divided
> estates among children. The problem with these is a growing population.
A growing population is a problem now and will only get worse.
>
> The smartest thing property owners can do is keep and sheperd as much
> public land as possible for non-property owners, failing that, you will
> have to deal with harsher measures.
The US is lucky in having lots of public land. Most of this is out west, or
in Alaska, but there is an abundance. I support mixed
commercial/recreatio/wilderness use, with some public access provisions for
public land leased for mining, ranching, agricultural, or whatever
commercial use.
What the Brit's are doing as has
> been done in other countries like the Nordic countries is give travel
rights.
> It's a buffer and warning sign.
It's fascism.
>
> >> There are more fun climbs than the Eiger North Face.
> >My point exactly. Isn't that thing intimidating from Grindelwald?
>
> It's more intimidating from Kleine Schiedegg.
> But I think one has to be up on it. I might try the NE ridge with a
> decent partner. I went to college with Harlin's son. But I'm more
> interested in the NF of the Dru, the NF of the Matterhorn, or maybe the
> Grand Jorass.
If I recall, the first and last are safer. I read some pretty intimidating
stories about it raining rock on the NF Matterhorn, not that the others are
"safe".
>
>
> The most intimidating, oppressive climb/slide show I have ever seen
> was George Lowe's and Chris Jones ascent of the NF of North Twin in
Canada.
> George started the climb with two absolutely new ropes, and they there
> shot after six days. Some of it was written up in Ascent.
I saw it. it was horrendous. This stuff is way beyond anything I would
consider doing. OLN had "Todd Skinner does The Nameless Tower" on the other
night. I ripped up the upholstery on my armchair with my ice tools watching
it.
I think
> there have been maybe 4 ascents. Unfortunately, George lost his prize
> Bell climbing helmet. George is probably the best American climber to
> have so far lived and his cousins ran LAS). Nice guy. A physcist.
>
Better to lose one's helmet than one's life. Guys who do alpine climbing at
that level are playing Russian Roulette.
Talk to You later, Gene.
LuddLite
no nazi. I came to these conclusions based on your replies to 'Chaka',
and subsequently to me. Perhaps we are genetically predisposed to
detest one another, but I regret being hasty in my conclusions and
comments.
LuddLite
Mark McGilvray wrote:
>
... some interesting observations
Eugene Miya
Mark McGilvray <mcgi...@ns.net> wrote:
>"Eugene Miya" <eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> wrote in message
>news:3a5532c6$1...@news.ucsc.edu...
>> Most of science is based on what's called reductionism
>>
>problem in manageable dimensions. Only mathematics seems able to defy this.
Math (where I jumped after nuclear engineering) has the advantage in
that it doesn't have a heavy cost idea. Gedanken experiments are easy,
but that's the limitation of models.
>The truly great leaps in science are no different, only more spectacular
>because they view an old problem in a new light, using a new perspective.
>The greatest feat in classical dynamics is Newton's formation of the laws of
>force and gravitation (which we so thoroughly take as a given today). The
Excellent example; very unpopular guy.
>greatest feat in physics is Einstein's formulation of relativity, which
>states mass energy equivalence, a constant speed of light, and that
>gravitation curves the space-time continuum. We are at the point where some
>such radical simplification, or reduction is needed better to explain our
>more complex phenomena. Our present tools are likely not adequate.
Yes, I know a few people working on differential forms and other tools.
I'm not exact a fan of non-linear dynamics, but that's popular.
I think 1988 was a good example for contrasting discoveries:
warm superconductors (real)
and
cold fusion (crock)
I have to figure out where Unionstrasse in Zurich is.
>> (JMC) physics community is wasting its time studying thermodynamics
>> and fluid mechanics
>
>I'm sure the hotshots in the field are waiting breathlessly for my input.
>This is why McCarthy is a mathematician - this is a field where someone
>pulls a rabbit out of the hat quite frequently. I can assure you these
>people are not wasting their time. The classical theories of fluid mechanics
>and thermodynamics are at a standstill in many respects, until some new
>method of analysis is available - a quantum leap in perspective, if you will.
Agreed.
>Yes, electromagnetic radiation and thermodynamics are an extremely
>complicated interaction in our atmosphere and on earth.
Also on the ocean which covers so much of the earth.
>Yes Hertzsprung Russell is descriptive, it's descriptive, but essentially a
>statistical tabulation.
Agreed. A cross-sectional sampling.
>> >> In the atmosphere.
>> Which ones? There's a pretty resonable FAQ over in sci.geo.meteor*
...
> I'm not throwing rocks at any one, just skeptical of the process by which
You should. That's how strawmen get strengthened or die.
>many of these claims are supported. I have a hunch most are driven by a lust
>for gov't grant funding. OK, I'll go look for it. Physicists are as guilty
>of bogus science in this respect as others. Actually, I will cast a stone at
>Carl Sagan, whom I consider a fraud, insofar as his quack atmospheric model
>goes.
>
>> Keeling is an atmospheric physicist. Few computer scientists know the
>> atmosphere.
>
>Few atmospheric scientists know it well either.
This is where Keeling is really good. He's aware of this (at Scripts),
he graphed measured levels of CO2 to the $$ value of the specific study
and found positive correlation. Roger takes a very neutral attitude to
recording CO2 and knows the sources of noise.
Now Carl, I worked with a bit. The model wasn't purely Carl's.
You mean TTAPS: Toon, Turco, Ackerman, Pollock, Sagan? The Science paper?
That came out of asteroids hitting the earth generalized to 1,000 MT
thermonuclear exchanges. The first problem still exists and Teller
is arguing for money for planetary defense independent of the 2-3
asteroid movies out there.
I know or knew most of these guys. Pollock, Toon, and Ackerman
were some of the best atmospheric physicists in the world (planetary
atmospheres models also generalized to Venus, Mars, and giant giants
like Jupiter). Jim and Owen passed away. I still have some touch with Tom.
Rich Turco won a MacArthur Fellowship, met Rich once at his work place,
and he works for a physics think tank which also does nuclear war
simulations for the DOD. At that time I had a hat which was "Defense
Nuclear Agency" [why they asked me I had no idea because I was more
"freeze" oriented even though I know about six weapons designers,
the hat now reads "Defense Threat Reduction Agency"].
Carl did his PhD on the atmosphere of Venus
(he was one of those who said it was 800F). Tom was the one to approach
me for email support in the days when networks were not easily linked.
Carl was the last one to get email.
I know bits of their atmospheric code, and I've heard some of the
criticisms of it, but if you want to condemn them, you can also condemn
NCAR, the NWS, the ECMWF, and a slew of others attempting atmospheric
modeling back to Richardson and von Neumann.
Toward the end of Carl's life during the Gulf battle, he kinda ignored
the stratosphere and thought the troposphere where the fires were
burning, would have the winter problem.
Was Carl flakey? What two times I worked with him, he was a very
complex, bright individual. I'm guessing that he was like James Watson
who figured out DNA structure. He makes leaps, but so do many good
scientists. These guys are not plodders.
IF you have problem with the atmospheric community, sci.geo.meteorology
is the place. I eat lunch with some of the guys studying the ozone holes
(S and N) and fly U-2s to collect O3. There's lots of
overgeneralization there are tumors and other ground things with a
baseline, and that's really why humanity is going to want to preserve
parks and things.
People are going to continue studying TTAPS because aerosols and
particulates will remain important for various reasons for quite some time.
Eugene Miya
Mark McGilvray <mcgi...@ns.net> wrote:
>"Eugene Miya" <eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> wrote in message
>news:3a551c97$1...@news.ucsc.edu...
>Most definitely.
>
>> Those are rec.hunting and rec.guns FAQ topics: range and accuracy.
>> They appeared in r.b. a couple of times, too.
>>
>I've not found much of interest in the rec.guns for the 1000yd shooter.
>I haven't found much there regarding accuracy either.
The 1K that last time I saw one was r.h. (which is amusing because it
is moderated).
It depends what you are looking for Mark. There are several techniques
to illict responses from people on a given topic.
Pete Hickey
>It depends what you are looking for Mark. There are several techniques
>to illict responses from people on a given topic.
No there aren't. There is only one.
-Pete
Eugene Miya
In article <PQs56.5169$1%2.25...@sjc-read.news.verio.net>,
Mark McGilvray <mcgi...@ns.net> wrote:
>I have limited sympathy for european kibbitzing in our politics. They have a
>checkered past which doesn't pass the smell test.
Well those are 1920s words, and that was League of Nations time and
US Isolationsism. The world's a different place. Bush's father was the
one who coined the term "New World Order." We are past "gentlemen"
and Stimson, and we just "finished "deterrence."
>> >> >economics
BTW Mark, not really a solid science. ;^)
Quite descriptive and dismal.
>> >> That's largely because the economic has not cared about the
>> >> environmental problems created in the world, and the various degrees of
>> >> foot dragging people have done. Having visited West Virginia and other
>> >> areas, it's going to be interesting how US property rights will fly
>over
>> >> the rest of the world. The English are changing their land property
>> >rights.
>
>The other nations can do as they please with their sovereign territory.
I just drove through AZ. It's a nice ideal until the smoke stack
effluent drifts over you.
>> >The Brits have had a much stronger state planning aspect to their
>> >>property rights than the US.
>> Oh it's not just the Brits (was there in June).
>Definitely not.
See, we agree. 8^)
>> It's also the mechanisms and values of property. I learned a little bit
>> of this during a Stanford grad class on wine which a friend taught.
>> Protestants largely give their land to first sons and Catholics divided
>> estates among children. The problem with these is a growing population.
>
>A growing population is a problem now and will only get worse.
Yeah.
Regional stability and other problems.
>> The smartest thing property owners can do is keep and sheperd as much
>> public land as possible for non-property owners, failing that, you will
>> have to deal with harsher measures.
>
>The US is lucky in having lots of public land. Most of this is out west, or
>in Alaska, but there is an abundance. I support mixed
>commercial/recreation/wilderness use, with some public access provisions for
>public land leased for mining, ranching, agricultural, or whatever
>commercial use.
The US is very lucky.
Well in words, this is what we have already. Steady state isn't.
The issue is trends and the interpretation of use.
Powell/Pinchot-style Soil Conservation Service, Bureau of Reclamation,
USFS, will do some. Mather/Muir style aesthetic preservation will do
others. However there's lots of holes including the oceans.
European forests are pitiful. I see why they like visiting the Redwoods.
It's the first and second derivatives which are the current problems.
It's not just woods, it's the fishing industry (I remember when
California had a Tuna industry), and others.
>>What the Brit's are doing as has
>> been done in other countries like the Nordic countries is give travel
>rights.
>> It's a buffer and warning sign.
>
>It's fascism.
Friends had their father chase off trespassers with rock salt.
It's only going to get worse Mark, you ACKed population yourself.
At this time, most aren't armed. Escalation only works so far.
More fun topic:
>> >> There are more fun climbs than the Eiger North Face.
>> >My point exactly. Isn't that thing intimidating from Grindelwald?
>> It's more intimidating from Kleine Schiedegg.
Got photos back.
>> But I'm more
>> interested in the NF of the Dru, the NF of the Matterhorn, or maybe the
>> Grand Jorass.
>
>If I recall, the first and last are safer. I read some pretty intimidating
>stories about it raining rock on the NF Matterhorn, not that the others are
>"safe".
They all have falling ice and differing degrees of falling rock.
Friends have done the Dru and the Matternhorn NF (run like hell and
skip the belays). I do know someone who died (panel 16) descending the
the GJ. If I wanted to be fully safe, I'd leave the activity and not
look back.
>> NF of North Twin in Canada.
>
>I saw it. it was horrendous. This stuff is way beyond anything I would
>consider doing. OLN had "Todd Skinner does The Nameless Tower" on the other
>night. I ripped up the upholstery on my armchair with my ice tools watching
>it.
The Tower adds altitude as a problem. Cerro Fitzroy would be fun.
It's low. I just got Terray's book. They named a traffic circle after
him in Chamonix.
>Better to lose one's helmet than one's life. Guys who do alpine climbing at
>that level are playing Russian Roulette.
Naw George just forgot it on a rock at the top of the East Buttress of
El Cap (absent minded prof thing). Naw. George doesn't play roulette.
He's the best the US has produced. Great all around guy. Everything
from a 1 day Nose ascent to a FA of an Everest route (hard one).
And he didn't get up Latok.
Eugene Miya
Mark McGilvray <mcgi...@ns.net> wrote:
>> >Happy New Years Gene! How about some nice hot saki?
>I know I didn't want any alchohol after New Years eve
Too many people posting under the influence.
>> Samuari never drink alcohol on watch. ;^)
>> Priorities of life.
>> ...
>> Mark, you don't have to attribute all this text!
>
>No, I sure don't & apologise for my sloppy posting. Post when you can. I'm
>going to cut this into 3 posts.
You don't have to apologize Mark, you only have to trim.
You don't post sloppy.
It is the content of the intellect which is important here not the form.
It's the weekend. Time to go climbing. I'll let the Leni fans suck
themselves in a bit more.
Chris Townsend
>
>The US is lucky in having lots of public land. Most of this is out west, or
>in Alaska, but there is an abundance. I support mixed
>commercial/recreatio/wilderness use, with some public access provisions for
>public land leased for mining, ranching, agricultural, or whatever
>commercial use.
>
>What the Brit's are doing as has
>> been done in other countries like the Nordic countries is give travel
>rights.
>> It's a buffer and warning sign.
>
>It's fascism.
Fascism? What is fascism? The Great Open Air Charter of Norway? Sweden's
Allmansratten? The new Right to Roam in England and Wales? Scotland's
proposed Rights of Access? These are the opposite of fascism. These are
granting the rights of people to have access to land that, in the UK
countries, was taken from them during the Enclosures of the 18th century
and the Highland Clearances of the 19th century. In Norway and Sweden it
formalised what was the position anyway. (It's doing that in Scotland
too really - there is a de facto right of access to uncultivated land
already).
The position in the USA is very different to Europe. The US is a new
country with much land held by the federal government. In Europe very
little land is held by the state or regional governments. Without rights
of access there would be virtually no access to wild country.
- -
Chris Townsend
Mountain & Wilderness Writing & Photography.
Chris Townsend
<eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> writes
>
>European forests are pitiful. I see why they like visiting the Redwoods.
You're being polite. Except in a few small places western European
forests don't exist. We have a large number of monoculture tree
factories but few even semi-natural forests. Here in Scotland we have
just 1 percent of the original Caledonian Forest left. However through a
mix of planting and natural regeneration (which occurs when deer and
sheep numbers are reduced - Muir's "hooved locusts") some of the forest
is starting to return.
I only discovered what vast natural forests were like when I hiked
through the Sierra. It was a revelation. Until then I thought forests
were usually dark, gloomy ranks of conifers that blocked the way and cut
out the view.
Eugene Miya
Mark McGilvray <mcgi...@ns.net> wrote:
>> VA hospitals
>students. Anyone who thinks war is noble and the path to glory should take a
>close look at its survivors.
I'm not clear that's the way to go.
The comment is similar to one made by a former co-worker against having
kids see the Private Ryan film.
>FDRs gulag was the worst episode of Americam fascism in this century. In
>many ways FDR was an American Stalin (I love to needle democrats and FDR
>admirers with this). My mom taught at Flintridge Sacred Heart Academy in
Hey I know where that is.
>Southern CA where the FBI showed up to drag 12 year old Japanese orphan
>girls who spoke no English off to the the gulag, in hand cuffs so they
>couldn't harm the FBI men. A friend's father owned a drug store and bought
>up his Japanese customers' properties for a dollar, before they were
>gulagged, and sold it back to them after the war at the same price.
He was merely President. Earl Warren and other Californians and West
coasters were far more to blame. Mere war time? Or more?
>The rangers got clobbered at Pont du Hoc, but took it.
They have pretty awful stories.
>I always liked "From here to Eternity." A friend's father in law was in
>Hiroshima 3days before it was nuked.
I grew up with a kid who's mother was there and got knocked down by the
shockwave on the outskirts. We always joked with him being a little strange.
>> shooting prisoners
>Yep, happened all the time. Soldiers get really vicious when they see their
>friends killed by an enemy. They also have a healthy instinct for self
>preservation where it is not possible to watch prisoners and fight. There is
>a notion that prisoners aren't worth taking casualties for.
No prisoners.
There are great advantages toward non-discriminatory area denial weapons.
>I went to junior high and highschool with lots of Japanese American kids
>from exactly this kind of family background, Americans all.
We had a pretty balanced HS. It appeared on 60 Minutes in 1970.
>I knew you are a bright guy, Gene, taking Latin proves it!
It was more for the pre-med students; I had other prefs but not in
regular school. Not a choice.
>Mine left Scotland after having the misfortune to lose a war to the Brits at
>Culloden Moor, something we managed to do more often than not.
Yes, that's something that a lot of people don't realize about the
"United Kingdom." We also have the Welsh and Irish, too.
>Zwei bier, bitte!
Bitte shen (sp).
Eugene Miya
Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <3a56828f$1...@news.ucsc.edu>, Eugene Miya
><eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> writes
>>European forests are pitiful. I see why they like visiting the Redwoods.
>
>You're being polite. Except in a few small places western European
>forests don't exist. We have a large number of monoculture tree
>factories but few even semi-natural forests. Here in Scotland we have
>just 1 percent of the original Caledonian Forest left. However through a
>mix of planting and natural regeneration (which occurs when deer and
>sheep numbers are reduced - Muir's "hooved locusts") some of the forest
>is starting to return.
I had a hard time describing the size and character of Redwood trees.
The guys I was speaking with were considering visiting RNP (the drive
is one of the slightly less trivial in the US as Amtrak doesn't go by).
Doug firs, too of course.
>I only discovered what vast natural forests were like when I hiked
>through the Sierra. It was a revelation. Until then I thought forests
>were usually dark, gloomy ranks of conifers that blocked the way and cut
>out the view.
It's back to the Northern Exposure thread. The problem, of course, is
that as one approaches the polar, the trees in Alaska become shorter and
scronier (sp). I was thinking about all the forests wiped clean on
Easter Island, and the clear cuts in the West.
Eugene Miya
Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>The position in the USA is very different to Europe. The US is a new
>country with much land held by the federal government. In Europe very
>little land is held by the state or regional governments. Without rights
>of access there would be virtually no access to wild country.
Yep, the Swiss have 1 National Park and it's open 4 months of the year.
Chris Townsend
<eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> writes
>In article <F7kEAOAF...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
>Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>In article <3a56828f$1...@news.ucsc.edu>, Eugene Miya
>><eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> writes
>>>European forests are pitiful. I see why they like visiting the Redwoods.
>>
>>You're being polite. Except in a few small places western European
>>forests don't exist. We have a large number of monoculture tree
>>factories but few even semi-natural forests. Here in Scotland we have
>>just 1 percent of the original Caledonian Forest left. However through a
>>mix of planting and natural regeneration (which occurs when deer and
>>sheep numbers are reduced - Muir's "hooved locusts") some of the forest
>>is starting to return.
>
>I had a hard time describing the size and character of Redwood trees.
>The guys I was speaking with were considering visiting RNP (the drive
>is one of the slightly less trivial in the US as Amtrak doesn't go by).
>
>Doug firs, too of course.
The biggest trees in the Highlands are Douglas firs and Redwoods planted
on a few estates in the late 1700s/early 1800s. Of course it was Scots
plant collectors like Douglas who brought many of these trees back to
the UK. Scots Pine, the only native conifer in Scotland, is a fine tree
but much smaller than redwoods etc.
Sugar Pines (Muir's favourite), Western Hemlocks, Ponderosa Pines,
Whitebark Pines, Foxtail Pines ....... you have many fine trees. When I
visit the Sierra now it's the trees that make the biggest impression.
Indeed, it's the trees that draw me back. And I haven't seen the
redwoods yet.
There are some magnificent Norway Spruce in Norway but few of the old
giants are left.
>
>>I only discovered what vast natural forests were like when I hiked
>>through the Sierra. It was a revelation. Until then I thought forests
>>were usually dark, gloomy ranks of conifers that blocked the way and cut
>>out the view.
>
>It's back to the Northern Exposure thread. The problem, of course, is
>that as one approaches the polar, the trees in Alaska become shorter and
>scronier (sp). I was thinking about all the forests wiped clean on
>Easter Island, and the clear cuts in the West.
Walking north through the Yukon the trees shrank to a tangle of scrawny,
spindly black spruce growing on muskeg that was hell to walk through. I
guess Alaska is the same.
I did find some tall white spruce and aspens in sheltered valleys in the
Richardson Mountains.
The black spruce aren't tall enough for hanging food either. I left mine
on the ground at several points a few hundred feet from my camps. No
bears bothered them though I did see two grizzlies and found signs of
more.
In Norway and Sweden it's warmer farther north of course. There are fine
birch forests well north of the arctic circle and some big Scots Pine
and Norway Spruce.
Chris
>
Chris Townsend
<eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> writes
backpacking. Camping is restricted to highly organised sites and the
trails are so manicured they could be in city parks. Restrictions are
growing in other regions in the Alps too, especially the French parks.
This of course is the way the Alpine countries are dealing with pressure
of numbers. I'd rather have permits. That people have lived in the Alps
for thousands of years and it's centuries since they were wilderness is
a major factor too.
I find the Alps far too developed. In Europe I prefer Norway and Sweden,
the Pyrenees and the Scottish Highlands. But I'd swap the lot for
Western North America any day.
Chris
Mark McGilvray
Detest away. I'll be glad to cross swords with you in the political threads
anytime, but let's give the serious backcountry threads a break and not
unnecessarily drag political posting there.
"LuddLite" <Ludd...@large.com> wrote in message
news:3A567C6C...@large.com...
Mark McGilvray
> In article <Q6r56.5097$1%2.25...@sjc-read.news.verio.net>,
> Mark McGilvray <mcgi...@ns.net> wrote:
> >> VA hospitals
> >It ain't pretty. A visit to a VA hospital should be mandatory for
highschool
> >students. Anyone who thinks war is noble and the path to glory should
take a
> >close look at its survivors.
>
> I'm not clear that's the way to go.
> The comment is similar to one made by a former co-worker against having
> kids see the Private Ryan film.
I remember going on a highschool field trip to Folsom Prison. Some of my
teachers would probably rather have left me there. I remember watching one
trustee in the dairy and exactly what he was doing, to this day, vividly. I
suppose I have better things to do than mandate highschool curriculum from
my NG soapbox, but war is not like any movie, not even a bad one like
Private Ryan (yes, I hated it-except for Starwars, Spielberg is a meathead).
I would bet more than half of America has no idea what is in the VA
hospitals, other than medical services for vets.
>
> >FDRs gulag was the worst episode of Americam fascism in this century. In
> >many ways FDR was an American Stalin (I love to needle democrats and FDR
> >admirers with this). My mom taught at Flintridge Sacred Heart Academy in
> Hey I know where that is.
> >Southern CA where the FBI showed up to drag 12 year old Japanese orphan
> >girls who spoke no English off to the the gulag, in hand cuffs so they
> >couldn't harm the FBI men. A friend's father owned a drug store and
bought
> >up his Japanese customers' properties for a dollar, before they were
> >gulagged, and sold it back to them after the war at the same price.
>
> He was merely President.
Don't excuse FDR. He was GOD and president at this time and could have
stopped the gulagging of America's Japanese had he the balls. This defense
didn't even get "good Germans" who were "just following orders" off the hook
at Nuremberg. BTW, I don't excuse Joseph Kennedy either, who supported
Hitler (because he supported Irish nationalism), until Schickelgruber killed
his eldest son.....I find this equally apalling and under reported.
Churchill was a great man, FDR a thug.
Earl Warren and other Californians and West
> coasters were far more to blame. Mere war time? Or more?
Oh Christ, don't get me started on Earl Warren. Yes, there was anti-Japanese
and anti-asian sentiment in the US, still is today. The attack on Pearl
Harbor profoundly shocked and outraged the American psyche, whereas our
antagonism toward Nazi Germany was an incremental process, lacking a signal
attrocity like PH for entry into WWII. There was also the crass motivation
of stealing someone elses property under cover of wartime and the flag, re
Japanese Americans. I blame our leaders most, not the followers, though all
must accept blame for this vile episode in American history. What many do
not understand is that the Japanese FDR Gulagged were most profoundly
American. Not to shift the guilt, Japanese in American camps fared much
better than the Americans and others in Japanese camps did. I remember when
(pres?, VP?) went to Hirihito's funeral. MANY of those who were old enough
to remember WWII were just livid, just furious, that we would attend his
funeral. I was really surprised at the depth of resentment after 50 years.
>
> >The rangers got clobbered at Pont du Hoc, but took it.
>
> They have pretty awful stories.
Yes, It was a blood bath.
>
> >I always liked "From here to Eternity." A friend's father in law was in
> >Hiroshima 3days before it was nuked.
>
> I grew up with a kid who's mother was there and got knocked down by the
> shockwave on the outskirts. We always joked with him being a little
strange.
>
> >> shooting prisoners
>
> >Yep, happened all the time. Soldiers get really vicious when they see
their
> >friends killed by an enemy. They also have a healthy instinct for self
> >preservation where it is not possible to watch prisoners and fight. There
is
> >a notion that prisoners aren't worth taking casualties for.
>
> No prisoners.
> There are great advantages toward non-discriminatory area denial weapons.
A knowing military man said something to the effect, "Surrender of prisoners
is best arranged between large military units during time of cease fire."
>
> >I went to junior high and highschool with lots of Japanese American kids
> >from exactly this kind of family background, Americans all.
>
> We had a pretty balanced HS. It appeared on 60 Minutes in 1970.
>
> >I knew you are a bright guy, Gene, taking Latin proves it!
>
> It was more for the pre-med students; I had other prefs but not in
> regular school. Not a choice.
Latin gives a great insight into most european languages & civilisation,
where Rome once held sway.
>
> >Mine left Scotland after having the misfortune to lose a war to the Brits
at
> >Culloden Moor, something we managed to do more often than not.
>
> Yes, that's something that a lot of people don't realize about the
> "United Kingdom." We also have the Welsh and Irish, too.
The UK is a political unit, not a national unit. While the Isles prior to
William the Conqueror in 1066, were a succession of invasions and
settlements by ausslanders, the most meaningful division is that between
Celts and non-Celtic peoples. The Romans were not Celtic, nor were the
Angles and Saxons, nor the Vikings, nor were the Normans, nor were the
various ethnic groups necessarily ruled by their own indiginous nobles. The
Scots brought Christianity to Ireland, but the Irish peopled Dalriadic
Scotland with Scots, while chasing other Celts & Picts & Romans & Germanic
tribes around with fire & sword, and vice versa. It's a very interesting
hodge-podge. One of the most interesting books on the subject I've seen is
"An Introduction to Anglo Saxon England", by Peter Hunter Blair, Cambridge
University Press. I don't know if you like this kind of stuff, but I thrive
on it.
Mark McGilvray
> In article <gus56.5165$1%2.25...@sjc-read.news.verio.net>,
> Math (where I jumped after nuclear engineering) has the advantage in
> that it doesn't have a heavy cost idea. Gedanken experiments are easy,
> but that's the limitation of models.
Gedanken experiments yield the critical insight when creative genius is
brought to bear. I think of models as more an organizational tool.
>
.
>
> Yes, I know a few people working on differential forms and other tools.
> I'm not exact a fan of non-linear dynamics, but that's popular.
I'm a good 30 years behind the cutting edge here. I'm going to bag a copy of
Feynman's lectures & see if my comprehension here is as atrophied as my
skiing.
>
> I think 1988 was a good example for contrasting discoveries:
> warm superconductors (real)
> and
> cold fusion (crock)
The discovery of new phenomenon will drive the gedanken experiment that
cracks a formerly "insoluble" problem.
Piltdown man lives!
>
> [solar radiation] Also on the ocean which covers so much of the earth.
Yes, the oceans drive much of our weather and othe atmospheric phenomena
>
>
> This is where Keeling is really good. He's aware of this (at Scripts),
> he graphed measured levels of CO2 to the $$ value of the specific study
> and found positive correlation. Roger takes a very neutral attitude to
> recording CO2 and knows the sources of noise.
This is interesting.
>
> Now Carl, I worked with a bit. The model wasn't purely Carl's.
> You mean TTAPS: Toon, Turco, Ackerman, Pollock, Sagan? The Science paper?
> That came out of asteroids hitting the earth generalized to 1,000 MT
> thermonuclear exchanges. The first problem still exists and Teller
> is arguing for money for planetary defense independent of the 2-3
> asteroid movies out there.
I suspect Sagan's assessment of asteroid impact on earth is largely valid.
I hate to say I don't remember the name of the study. It gave extremely
suspect results which were extrapolated to "global warming". Again, I'll
have to hunt the reference up.
>
> I know or knew most of these guys. Pollock, Toon, and Ackerman
> were some of the best atmospheric physicists in the world (planetary
> atmospheres models also generalized to Venus, Mars, and giant giants
> like Jupiter). Jim and Owen passed away. I still have some touch with
Tom.
> Rich Turco won a MacArthur Fellowship, met Rich once at his work place,
> and he works for a physics think tank which also does nuclear war
> simulations for the DOD. At that time I had a hat which was "Defense
> Nuclear Agency" [why they asked me I had no idea because I was more
> "freeze" oriented even though I know about six weapons designers,
> the hat now reads "Defense Threat Reduction Agency"].
>
> Carl did his PhD on the atmosphere of Venus
> (he was one of those who said it was 800F). Tom was the one to approach
> me for email support in the days when networks were not easily linked.
> Carl was the last one to get email.
>
> I know bits of their atmospheric code, and I've heard some of the
> criticisms of it, but if you want to condemn them, you can also condemn
> NCAR, the NWS, the ECMWF, and a slew of others attempting atmospheric
> modeling back to Richardson and von Neumann.
I have no bone to pick with anyone attempting to model atmospheres. I do
remain skeptical of the extent to which these models map reality.
>
> Toward the end of Carl's life during the Gulf battle, he kinda ignored
> the stratosphere and thought the troposphere where the fires were
> burning, would have the winter problem.
Like I say, none of these models can accurately predict the weather, let
alone consistently.
>
> Was Carl flakey? What two times I worked with him, he was a very
> complex, bright individual. I'm guessing that he was like James Watson
> who figured out DNA structure. He makes leaps, but so do many good
> scientists. These guys are not plodders.
I'm sitting here in the "single A" dugout criticising the Major Leaguers,
but some of these guys lack genius. I think Linus Pauling (who logged some
really crackpot ideas) was a true genius, and that showboats like Sagan are
lost in his shadow.
>
> IF you have problem with the atmospheric community, sci.geo.meteorology
> is the place. I eat lunch with some of the guys studying the ozone holes
> (S and N) and fly U-2s to collect O3.
My problem is with politically driven "science", or with scientists who
allow their work to be co-opted by political hacks for propaganda.
There's lots of
> overgeneralization there are tumors and other ground things with a
> baseline, and that's really why humanity is going to want to preserve
> parks and things.
I'm all for parks and preservation. I'm utterly opposed to socailism and
fascism operating behind a veneer of science..
>
> People are going to continue studying TTAPS because aerosols and
> particulates will remain important for various reasons for quite some
time.
>
I'll go read TTAPS.
Mark McGilvray
> In article <PQs56.5169$1%2.25...@sjc-read.news.verio.net>,
> Mark McGilvray <mcgi...@ns.net> wrote:
> >I have limited sympathy for european kibbitzing in our politics. They
have a
> >checkered past which doesn't pass the smell test.
>
> Well those are 1920s words, and that was League of Nations time and
> US Isolationsism. The world's a different place. Bush's father was the
> one who coined the term "New World Order." We are past "gentlemen"
> and Stimson, and we just "finished "deterrence."
These are not 1920's isolationist words. I refuse to blandly accept
criticism of American politics from a bunch of degenerate socialists who
have given us the likes of Hitler, Stalin (stretch), and Mussollini. When
the old world aristocracy became so degenerate it could no longer
incestuously interbreed it gave us socialism. We are a sovereign nation, and
as such I could give a damn less what "the world" thinks of us. BTW, I do
not support puttin the boot to the rest of the world just because we imagine
we have the power to do it. I don't tell europeans how to run their internal
politics. I forgive the Brits because they gave us Churchill.
>
> >> >> >economics
>
> BTW Mark, not really a solid science. ;^)
> Quite descriptive and dismal.
Very funny. I'm reading chicken entrails as we speak.
>
> I just drove through AZ. It's a nice ideal until the smoke stack
> effluent drifts over you.
Try lighting your house with whale oil lamps.
>
> The US is very lucky.
> Well in words, this is what we have already. Steady state isn't.
> The issue is trends and the interpretation of use.
> Powell/Pinchot-style Soil Conservation Service, Bureau of Reclamation,
> USFS, will do some. Mather/Muir style aesthetic preservation will do
> others. However there's lots of holes including the oceans.
No doubt there is overcutting of timber in Oregon & Washington. There is
overfishing in the oceans. I would be delighted to see intelligent solutions
brought to the table, instead of political clap.
>
> European forests are pitiful. I see why they like visiting the Redwoods.
> It's the first and second derivatives which are the current problems.
Is this a differential equation?
> It's not just woods, it's the fishing industry (I remember when
> California had a Tuna industry), and others.
There is no reason it can't again.
>
> >>What the Brit's are doing as has
> >> been done in other countries like the Nordic countries is give travel
> >rights.
> >> It's a buffer and warning sign.
> >
> >It's fascism.
>
> Friends had their father chase off trespassers with rock salt.
> It's only going to get worse Mark, you ACKed population yourself.
> At this time, most aren't armed. Escalation only works so far.
I understand why the europeans do this. We are lucky to have huge areas of
public land (if the econazis don't restrict all access to this). Private
property means private. there is a process for taking private property for
public use, upon just compensation. The Rockefeller's owning the Grand
Tetons would be a reasonable use of this doctrine. I'm sorry, giving any
asshole access to my property without my consent is just plain unacceptable.
I've a gedanken experiment for you, Gene. It's superbowl Sunday. Some of my
disposessed brethren and I decide Eugene Miya should give us access to his
home, his television, and all mannner of other real and private property.
Thanks, Gene! Say, you've got more here than I thought - we'll just stay
here in your back yard. Well, except when it rains....
>
>
> More fun topic:
Indeed
> Got photos back.
Transparencies or prints? I'd like to see them if you post any.
> They all have falling ice and differing degrees of falling rock.
> Friends have done the Dru and the Matternhorn NF (run like hell and
> skip the belays). I do know someone who died (panel 16) descending the
> the GJ. If I wanted to be fully safe, I'd leave the activity and not
> look back.
I have pulled in my alpine climbing horns for safer stuff. I've been
climbing the "classics" at Lover's Leap. I got the Line, Travellers
buttress, Labo of Love, and a bunch of other stuff. Walk-off descents are
wonderful.
>
> >> NF of North Twin in Canada.
> >
> >I saw it. it was horrendous. This stuff is way beyond anything I would
> >consider doing. OLN had "Todd Skinner does The Nameless Tower" on the
other
> >night. I ripped up the upholstery on my armchair with my ice tools
watching
> >it.
>
> The Tower adds altitude as a problem. Cerro Fitzroy would be fun.
> It's low. I just got Terray's book. They named a traffic circle after
> him in Chamonix.
Be prepared to spend 3 weeks in a tent waiting for a shot at it. I think I
would as soon tackle the Cassin Ridge on Denali, were I in a risk taking
mode.
>
Mark McGilvray
"Chris Townsend" <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:66abgJA9...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk...
> In article <PQs56.5169$1%2.25...@sjc-read.news.verio.net>, Mark
> McGilvray <mcgi...@ns.net> writes
> >
> >The US is lucky in having lots of public land. Most of this is out west,
or
> >in Alaska, but there is an abundance. I support mixed
> >commercial/recreatio/wilderness use, with some public access provisions
for
> >public land leased for mining, ranching, agricultural, or whatever
> >commercial use.
> >
> (Eugene Miya writes)
>
> >What the Brit's are doing as has
> >> been done in other countries like the Nordic countries is give travel
> >rights.
> >> It's a buffer and warning sign.
> >
> >It's fascism.
>
> Fascism? What is fascism? The Great Open Air Charter of Norway? Sweden's
> Allmansratten? The new Right to Roam in England and Wales? Scotland's
> proposed Rights of Access? These are the opposite of fascism. These are
> granting the rights of people to have access to land that, in the UK
> countries, was taken from them during the Enclosures of the 18th century
> and the Highland Clearances of the 19th century. In Norway and Sweden it
> formalised what was the position anyway. (It's doing that in Scotland
> too really - there is a de facto right of access to uncultivated land
> already).
Cool your jets. Europe is very different and what they do is their business.
I'm calling our American little green commies fascists if they want to
appropriate my private property rights w/o my consent.
>
> The position in the USA is very different to Europe. The US is a new
> country with much land held by the federal government. In Europe very
> little land is held by the state or regional governments. Without rights
> of access there would be virtually no access to wild country.
I'm perfectly aware of this. I just like to dump on socialism.
Chris Townsend
McGilvray <mcgi...@ns.net> writes
>Chris! Don't shoot....
Okay, okay!
Okay. I thought you were saying that what was happening in Britain was
fascism.
>>
>> The position in the USA is very different to Europe. The US is a new
>> country with much land held by the federal government. In Europe very
>> little land is held by the state or regional governments. Without rights
>> of access there would be virtually no access to wild country.
>
>I'm perfectly aware of this. I just like to dump on socialism.
I'm not sure what the word "socialism" means any more. It's used by some
people to promote policies that historically were never socialist by any
definition and by others as a bogy word for anything they don't like.
Chris
Mark McGilvray
Any links to more photos?
"Chris Townsend" <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:klwsHDAb...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk...
Chris Townsend
McGilvray <mcgi...@ns.net> writes
>Chris, I looked at your site & liked it. You have definitely been hiking.
>Any links to more photos?
>
very little recently.
There's some photos of my Arizona Trail hike at
http://www.bluedome.co.uk/arizonatrail/index.html
These were taken with a digital camera, the first time I'd used one on a
hike, so I could send back Smartcards. They don't look so good as prints
but I had an SLR as well.
There may still be some assorted photos at
http://www.redstart.net/Chris_Townsend/index.html
This was a deal with a film lab. I haven't looked at it in a while.
Chris
Eugene Miya
Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>In article <F7kEAOAF...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
>>Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>In article <3a56828f$1...@news.ucsc.edu>, Eugene Miya
>>><eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> writes
>>>>European forests are pitiful. I see why they like visiting the Redwoods.
>>>You're being polite. Except in a few small places western European
>>>forests don't exist.
>
>on a few estates in the late 1700s/early 1800s. Of course it was Scots
>plant collectors like Douglas who brought many of these trees back to
>the UK. Scots Pine, the only native conifer in Scotland, is a fine tree
>but much smaller than redwoods etc.
How tall and what diameters?
Doug firs: oh oh the old Twin Peaks thread on doug firs.....
>Sugar Pines (Muir's favourite), Western Hemlocks, Ponderosa Pines,
>Whitebark Pines, Foxtail Pines ....... you have many fine trees. When I
>visit the Sierra now it's the trees that make the biggest impression.
>Indeed, it's the trees that draw me back. And I haven't seen the
>redwoods yet.
The forests depend where you visit: elevation and aspect direction.
It's not all sugars or ponderosa. Amazing amounts are second growth.
In the higher portions there are no trees.
>There are some magnificent Norway Spruce in Norway but few of the old
>giants are left.
Yes, but you have the mighty Larch!
Python pun pun pun.....
>>>I only discovered what vast natural forests were like when I hiked
>>>through the Sierra. It was a revelation. Until then I thought forests
>>>were usually dark, gloomy ranks of conifers that blocked the way and cut
>>>out the view.
>>
>>It's back to the Northern Exposure thread. The problem, of course, is
>>that as one approaches the polar, the trees in Alaska become shorter and
>>scronier (sp). I was thinking about all the forests wiped clean on
>>Easter Island, and the clear cuts in the West.
>
>Walking north through the Yukon the trees shrank to a tangle of scrawny,
>spindly black spruce growing on muskeg that was hell to walk through. I
>guess Alaska is the same.
On the Haul road in the Brooks there is the designated "Last tree."
>I did find some tall white spruce and aspens in sheltered valleys in the
>Richardson Mountains.
>
>The black spruce aren't tall enough for hanging food either. I left mine
>on the ground at several points a few hundred feet from my camps. No
>bears bothered them though I did see two grizzlies and found signs of
>more.
>
>In Norway and Sweden it's warmer farther north of course. There are fine
>birch forests well north of the arctic circle and some big Scots Pine
>and Norway Spruce.
I hate to say it but it all sounds like we are approaching tree Museums.
It all gets into the individual trees from the individual forests.
Eugene Miya
Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>The Swiss Alps are so regulated it's hardly worth going there for
>backpacking. Camping is restricted to highly organised sites and the
>trails are so manicured they could be in city parks. Restrictions are
>growing in other regions in the Alps too, especially the French parks.
Well that's one of the reasons for going in winter.
The trails aren't manicured, the whole mountains and forests are
manicured. I almost expect to find registration numbers on the bottoms
of rocks.
Taking pictures of European signs (so many languages) is an amusing part
of it.
>This of course is the way the Alpine countries are dealing with pressure
>of numbers. I'd rather have permits. That people have lived in the Alps
>for thousands of years and it's centuries since they were wilderness is
>a major factor too.
Different countries will try different things when it comes to population.
That country Western music is very popular is quite amusing.
And tee-pee architecture......
>I find the Alps far too developed. In Europe I prefer Norway and Sweden,
>the Pyrenees and the Scottish Highlands. But I'd swap the lot for
>Western North America any day.
I plan to get to Norway ones of these days.
This was 25% diplomatic mission.
I think the Alps are important because, as the statue of Rousseau sits
in Geneva, the Alps are where the human race has developed its landscape
and outdoor aesthetic. The Alps are far less like US mountains in quite
a few respects. Canada's peaks are closer in some respects, largely
physical geography: latitude, glaciation, vegetation, the influence of
the Gulf Stream, etc. I see proposals like more trams to the tops of
Half Dome and Glacier Point as even greater jokes than before (these
proposals miss the point as to why they exist in what some appear to
think is a Fairy Tale land (even noted in the Charles Schulz Snoopy
Museum/center).
Chris Townsend
<eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> writes
>In article <SedRZEAs...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
>Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>In article <F7kEAOAF...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
>>>Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>In article <3a56828f$1...@news.ucsc.edu>, Eugene Miya
>>>><eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> writes
>>>>>European forests are pitiful. I see why they like visiting the Redwoods.
>>>>You're being polite. Except in a few small places western European
>>>>forests don't exist.
>>
>>The biggest trees in the Highlands are Douglas firs and Redwoods planted
>>on a few estates in the late 1700s/early 1800s. Of course it was Scots
>>plant collectors like Douglas who brought many of these trees back to
>>the UK. Scots Pine, the only native conifer in Scotland, is a fine tree
>>but much smaller than redwoods etc.
>
>How tall and what diameters?
The biggest Scots Pine I can find a record of is 121 feet high with a
circumference of 55.5 inches. The biggest Giant Sequoia in the UK is
170.5 feet high with a circumference of 110 inches. The tallest Douglas
Fir in the UK is 200 feet high. (Info from Mitchell's "Trees of Britain
& Northern Europe").
>>Sugar Pines (Muir's favourite), Western Hemlocks, Ponderosa Pines,
>>Whitebark Pines, Foxtail Pines ....... you have many fine trees. When I
>>visit the Sierra now it's the trees that make the biggest impression.
>>Indeed, it's the trees that draw me back. And I haven't seen the
>>redwoods yet.
>
>The forests depend where you visit: elevation and aspect direction.
>It's not all sugars or ponderosa. Amazing amounts are second growth.
>In the higher portions there are no trees.
Indeed. I love the twisted foxtails at timberline.
>
>>There are some magnificent Norway Spruce in Norway but few of the old
>>giants are left.
>
>Yes, but you have the mighty Larch!
>Python pun pun pun.....
But no lumberjacks.....
We have larch in our garden and growing in the woods nearby. It's a crop
tree in many areas of the UK. In the English Lake District it's now
regarded as one of the attractions of the landscape. When they were
first introduced Wordsworth railed against them as invaders that spoilt
the scenery. Most visitors probably think they are native. After 250 or
so years maybe they are.
>>Walking north through the Yukon the trees shrank to a tangle of scrawny,
>>spindly black spruce growing on muskeg that was hell to walk through. I
>>guess Alaska is the same.
>
>On the Haul road in the Brooks there is the designated "Last tree."
I have a personal "last tree" in the local Cairngorm mountains, a lone
Scots pine above which there is just rock, bog and moorland plants.
>
>I hate to say it but it all sounds like we are approaching tree Museums.
>It all gets into the individual trees from the individual forests.
>
That's a danger. However here in Scotland the last decade has seen major
steps towards restoring the native forest. One of the most optimistic
developments is the discovery that the forest will return on land that
has had no trees on it for two centuries due to over-grazing once the
sheep and deer are reduced in number. Ancient trees are magnificent but
I also like to look at the new youngsters.
Chris
Chris Townsend
<eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> writes
>In article <POIWNBA5...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
>Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>The Swiss Alps are so regulated it's hardly worth going there for
>>backpacking. Camping is restricted to highly organised sites and the
>>trails are so manicured they could be in city parks. Restrictions are
>>growing in other regions in the Alps too, especially the French parks.
>
>Well that's one of the reasons for going in winter.
>The trails aren't manicured, the whole mountains and forests are
>manicured. I almost expect to find registration numbers on the bottoms
>of rocks.
In Switzerland I guess it's so. I haven't been there in summer and only
briefly in winter. I know the French Alps a little better. I did my
first ski tour in the Vanoise Alps.
>
>That country Western music is very popular is quite amusing.
Indeed. It's very popular in Scotland. BBC Radio Scotland has a weekly 3
hour C&W programme called "The Brand New Opry".
>And tee-pee architecture......
A curious fact is that the Sami (more popularly known as Lapps, which
they don't like) used the same structures in the past, called kotas. You
can see display ones in Lapland, with signs explaining that they are
similar to Indian tipis.
>
>>I find the Alps far too developed. In Europe I prefer Norway and Sweden,
>>the Pyrenees and the Scottish Highlands. But I'd swap the lot for
>>Western North America any day.
>
>I plan to get to Norway ones of these days.
It's well worth it. My favourite European country. The Norwegian
mountains are not manicured. Nansen's ideas on wilderness and outdoor
activities are very interesting too.
>
>I think the Alps are important because, as the statue of Rousseau sits
>in Geneva, the Alps are where the human race has developed its landscape
>and outdoor aesthetic.
& where mountaineering/hillwalking for its own sake developed. I
wouldn't downplay their importance. Of course Rousseau's ideas were
taken up by Wordsworth and Coleridge who had a major impact on the
landscape aesthetic in England. That's why the tiny English Lake
District is also important.
However I prefer the direction the aesthetic took in North America
through Muir to people like Abbey. (& Colin Fletcher, though I know he
came from here).
> The Alps are far less like US mountains in quite
>a few respects. Canada's peaks are closer in some respects, largely
>physical geography: latitude, glaciation, vegetation, the influence of
>the Gulf Stream, etc. I see proposals like more trams to the tops of
>Half Dome and Glacier Point as even greater jokes than before (these
>proposals miss the point as to why they exist in what some appear to
>think is a Fairy Tale land (even noted in the Charles Schulz Snoopy
>Museum/center).
At present a funicular railway is being almost to the top of Cairn Gorm,
one of Scotland's eight 4,000 foot peaks. The idea is that people will
use it to look at the view in summer and to go skiing in winter (there's
already a struggling ski resort there). Cairn Gorm has a very wet and
windy climate. Thick mist and heavy rain are common and 100mph+ winds
occur regularly in the winter. They need 160,000 people a year to make
it pay. I can't imagine they will get this many. Around 30,000 use the
chairlifts at present.
When it was first proposed I thought it was a joke. It probably still is
but unfortunately an unsightly environmentally damaging one.
Chris
Ed Huesers
Chris Townsend wrote:
> Ancient trees are magnificent but
> I also like to look at the new youngsters.
You may want to check out what the boys down under have found:
http://www.erin.gov.au/life/end_vuln/plants/liv_fossil.html
Ed Huesers
http://www.grandshelters.com
Eugene Miya
Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>The Swiss Alps are so regulated it's hardly worth going there ...
>
>In Switzerland I guess it's so. I haven't been there in summer and only
>briefly in winter. I know the French Alps a little better. I did my
>first ski tour in the Vanoise Alps.
Well, I did some overnight hikes this time, and the overnight had to be
in a 3-star hotel. 5/6 hostels are close this time of year.
>>That country Western music is very popular is quite amusing.
>
>Indeed. It's very popular in Scotland. BBC Radio Scotland has a weekly 3
>hour C&W programme called "The Brand New Opry".
Shana (sp) Twain and others are big. I was in Leukerbad in the sports
zentrum restaurant after the locals finished a hockey game and the
entire restaurant except me sang Country Roads (too many memories).
>>And tee-pee architecture......
>
>A curious fact is that the Sami (more popularly known as Lapps, which
>they don't like) used the same structures in the past, called kotas. You
>can see display ones in Lapland, with signs explaining that they are
>similar to Indian tipis.
These wese teepees as bars (K.S. is merely one),
there's also a Hawaiian bar at 10K ft. near Zermatt.
There's a Museum to North American Indians somewhere in Zurich.
It's ROusseau, they really like the Nobel Savage.
>>>I find the Alps far too developed. In Europe I prefer Norway and Sweden,
>>I plan to get to Norway ones of these days.
>
>It's well worth it. My favourite European country. The Norwegian
>mountains are not manicured. Nansen's ideas on wilderness and outdoor
>activities are very interesting too.
One of my friend in Oxford did some climbs there.
Friends live there.
>>I think the Alps are important because, as the statue of Rousseau sits
>>in Geneva, the Alps are where the human race has developed its landscape
>>and outdoor aesthetic.
>
>& where mountaineering/hillwalking for its own sake developed. I
>wouldn't downplay their importance. Of course Rousseau's ideas were
>taken up by Wordsworth and Coleridge who had a major impact on the
>landscape aesthetic in England. That's why the tiny English Lake
>District is also important.
I thought about visiting the Lake District on my trip in June.
No time, too much area and work to do.
Rousseau also influenced others like Emereson, Thoreau, Ruskin,
Bierstadt, Cole, etc.
>However I prefer the direction the aesthetic took in North America
>through Muir to people like Abbey. (& Colin Fletcher, though I know he
>came from here).
Muir was important because he was a practicioner.
>At present a funicular railway is being almost to the top of Cairn Gorm,
>one of Scotland's eight 4,000 foot peaks. The idea is that people will
>use it to look at the view in summer and to go skiing in winter (there's
>already a struggling ski resort there). Cairn Gorm has a very wet and
>windy climate. Thick mist and heavy rain are common and 100mph+ winds
>occur regularly in the winter. They need 160,000 people a year to make
>it pay. I can't imagine they will get this many. Around 30,000 use the
>chairlifts at present.
>
>When it was first proposed I thought it was a joke. It probably still is
>but unfortunately an unsightly environmentally damaging one.
Yeah, but you see, the recreation is actually a secondary reason for the
Swiss doing things like this. I just got some photos back. They do
this stuff for their National defense. There are people ice skating
there, but that's a 10,000 foot runway under that ice. Trams, trains,
and other transport are used for all kinds of hidden installations.
Oh, and they can make some money during ski season. ;^)
Eugene Miya
Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>In article <3a56828f$1...@news.ucsc.edu>, Eugene Miya
>>>>><eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> writes
>>>>>>European forests are pitiful.
>>>The biggest trees in the Highlands are Douglas firs and Redwoods planted
>
>The biggest Scots Pine I can find a record of is 121 feet high with a
>circumference of 55.5 inches. The biggest Giant Sequoia in the UK is
>170.5 feet high with a circumference of 110 inches. The tallest Douglas
>Fir in the UK is 200 feet high. (Info from Mitchell's "Trees of Britain
>& Northern Europe").
I think that you can find trees this size in Berkeley, and maybe not too
far from the Silicon Valley. But it's not the individual tree, it's
seeing acres and acres of them. Or not.
>>>Sugar Pines (Muir's favourite), Western Hemlocks, Ponderosa Pines,
>>>Whitebark Pines, Foxtail Pines ....... you have many fine trees. When I
>>>visit the Sierra now it's the trees that make the biggest impression.
>
>Indeed. I love the twisted foxtails at timberline.
Did you get over to the White Mountains and the Bristlecone?
>>>There are some magnificent Norway Spruce in Norway but few of the old
>>>giants are left.
>>Yes, but you have the mighty Larch!
>>Python pun pun pun.....
>
>But no lumberjacks.....
That's for Canada.
British Columbia, Alberta, leap from tree to treee.
>We have larch in our garden and growing in the woods nearby. It's a crop
>tree in many areas of the UK. In the English Lake District it's now
>regarded as one of the attractions of the landscape. When they were
>first introduced Wordsworth railed against them as invaders that spoilt
>the scenery. Most visitors probably think they are native. After 250 or
>so years maybe they are.
One has to be weary of the clueless who merely count trees.
>>>Yukon
>>>Alaska
>>On the Haul road in the Brooks there is the designated "Last tree."
>
>I have a personal "last tree" in the local Cairngorm mountains, a lone
>Scots pine above which there is just rock, bog and moorland plants.
I refer that to the botanists. I can id rock, ingeneous, sedentary,
metaphoric. As Bob Sharp would say.
>>I hate to say it but it all sounds like we are approaching tree Museums.
>>It all gets into the individual trees from the individual forests.
>>
>That's a danger. However here in Scotland the last decade has seen major
>steps towards restoring the native forest. One of the most optimistic
>developments is the discovery that the forest will return on land that
>has had no trees on it for two centuries due to over-grazing once the
>sheep and deer are reduced in number. Ancient trees are magnificent but
>I also like to look at the new youngsters.
The fun is in coring trees. Some of the folk can C14 them or others do
C12/C13 ratios. The history of mankind is collected in those rings:
Sr90, Cs137, DDT, CO2 data, etc. etc.
Eugene Miya
Pete Hickey <pe...@bitman.uottawa.ca.DELETE.ME> wrote:
>In article <3a567d64$1...@news.ucsc.edu>, Eugene Miya <eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> wrote:
>>It depends what you are looking for Mark. There are several techniques
>>to illict responses from people on a given topic.
>
>No there aren't. There is only one.
No, there's a couple of techniques, and they aren't all posting.
Chris Townsend
<eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> writes
>In article <PfIGJFA6...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
>Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>In article <3a56828f$1...@news.ucsc.edu>, Eugene Miya
>>>>>><eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> writes
>>>>>>>European forests are pitiful.
>>>>>>You're being polite.
>>>>>>forests don't exist.
>>>>The biggest trees in the Highlands are Douglas firs and Redwoods planted
>>>How tall and what diameters?
>>
>>The biggest Scots Pine I can find a record of is 121 feet high with a
>>circumference of 55.5 inches. The biggest Giant Sequoia in the UK is
>>170.5 feet high with a circumference of 110 inches. The tallest Douglas
>>Fir in the UK is 200 feet high. (Info from Mitchell's "Trees of Britain
>>& Northern Europe").
>
>I think that you can find trees this size in Berkeley, and maybe not too
>far from the Silicon Valley. But it's not the individual tree, it's
>seeing acres and acres of them. Or not.
Indeed. Until I went to the Sierra I had seen trees but not forests.
>
>>>>Sugar Pines (Muir's favourite), Western Hemlocks, Ponderosa Pines,
>>>>Whitebark Pines, Foxtail Pines ....... you have many fine trees. When I
>>>>visit the Sierra now it's the trees that make the biggest impression.
>>
>>Indeed. I love the twisted foxtails at timberline.
>
>Did you get over to the White Mountains and the Bristlecone?
Not yet. They've been on my list for nearly 20 years - since I read
Colin Fletcher's Thousand Mile Summer.
>
>>>>There are some magnificent Norway Spruce in Norway but few of the old
>>>>giants are left.
>>>Yes, but you have the mighty Larch!
>>>Python pun pun pun.....
>>
>>But no lumberjacks.....
>
>That's for Canada.
>British Columbia, Alberta, leap from tree to treee.
Have you seen the version of this they did for German TV? With the
Pythons all wearing lederhosen and those little hats with feathers in?
>
>>>>Yukon
>>>>Alaska
>>>On the Haul road in the Brooks there is the designated "Last tree."
>>
>>I have a personal "last tree" in the local Cairngorm mountains, a lone
>>Scots pine above which there is just rock, bog and moorland plants.
>
>I refer that to the botanists. I can id rock, ingeneous, sedentary,
>metaphoric. As Bob Sharp would say.
It's all igneous - granite - round here. My house is built of it. Great
thick sparkling blocks two feet thick.
>
>
>The fun is in coring trees. Some of the folk can C14 them or others do
>C12/C13 ratios. The history of mankind is collected in those rings:
>Sr90, Cs137, DDT, CO2 data, etc. etc.
I counted the rings on a Scots pine that came down in a storm not far
from home. Hard to do near the centre but it was well over 100 years
old.
Chris Townsend
<eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> writes
>In article <ZvqDlJAx...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
>Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>>I think the Alps are important because, as the statue of Rousseau sits
>>>in Geneva, the Alps are where the human race has developed its landscape
>>>and outdoor aesthetic.
>>
>>& where mountaineering/hillwalking for its own sake developed. I
>>wouldn't downplay their importance. Of course Rousseau's ideas were
>>taken up by Wordsworth and Coleridge who had a major impact on the
>>landscape aesthetic in England. That's why the tiny English Lake
>>District is also important.
>
>I thought about visiting the Lake District on my trip in June.
>No time, too much area and work to do.
It's worth it if you're ever over again. But it's small. 50 miles
across. I'm surprised at the tiny size going back there from the
Highlands.
>
>Rousseau also influenced others like Emereson, Thoreau, Ruskin,
>Bierstadt, Cole, etc.
Ripples spreading out. Not that Ruskin liked climbers - greasy poles and
all that. And Emerson influenced Muir of course.
>
>>However I prefer the direction the aesthetic took in North America
>>through Muir to people like Abbey. (& Colin Fletcher, though I know he
>>came from here).
>
>Muir was important because he was a practicioner.
That's one of the things I like.
>
>>At present a funicular railway is being almost to the top of Cairn Gorm,
>>one of Scotland's eight 4,000 foot peaks. The idea is that people will
>>use it to look at the view in summer and to go skiing in winter (there's
>>already a struggling ski resort there). Cairn Gorm has a very wet and
>>windy climate. Thick mist and heavy rain are common and 100mph+ winds
>>occur regularly in the winter. They need 160,000 people a year to make
>>it pay. I can't imagine they will get this many. Around 30,000 use the
>>chairlifts at present.
>>
>>When it was first proposed I thought it was a joke. It probably still is
>>but unfortunately an unsightly environmentally damaging one.
>
>Yeah, but you see, the recreation is actually a secondary reason for the
>Swiss doing things like this. I just got some photos back. They do
>this stuff for their National defense. There are people ice skating
>there, but that's a 10,000 foot runway under that ice. Trams, trains,
>and other transport are used for all kinds of hidden installations.
Whereas here it's because people think they can make some money out of
it.
>
>
>Oh, and they can make some money during ski season. ;^)
Here it's because they can't make money during the ski season! They hope
the funicular will bring summer visitors.
>
Eugene Miya
Mark McGilvray <mcgi...@ns.net> wrote:
>I remember going on a highschool field trip to Folsom Prison. Some of my
Actually I was going to recommend the Prison Museum there for Bob Gross.
>teachers would probably rather have left me there. I remember watching one
>trustee in the dairy and exactly what he was doing, to this day, vividly. I
>suppose I have better things to do than mandate highschool curriculum from
>my NG soapbox, but war is not like any movie, not even a bad one like
>Private Ryan (yes, I hated it-except for Starwars, Spielberg is a meathead).
>I would bet more than half of America has no idea what is in the VA
>hospitals, other than medical services for vets.
Compared to some European countries, we have an amature military.
It's certainly civilian controlled (even Curtis LeMay, whom I am readin
gabout agreed with it, but that's didn't stop him from planning WWIII).
Mr. Spielberg has found ways to tug people's (not just America's)
emotion strings from the days of Duel and Jaws to now. Ryan wasn't too
bad. For him, it was playing Army as many of us did growing up.
Schendler's List is likely is best film so far. Ryan was far better
than Mallocks (sp) film which name escapes me.
I think that in part because the US ignores its vets, the civilians at
home get ahead. That's a cold reality.
As far as prisons go, I grew up in a very integrated part of LA.
I dislike the stats that some of the black and hispanic friends that I
grew up that a disproportionate percentage of them by stats encounter
trouble in their lives. As I noted, Don Hewitt did a 60 Minutes piece
on all of us back in 1970.
>Don't excuse FDR. He was GOD and president at this time and could have
>stopped the gulagging of America's Japanese had he the balls. This defense
>didn't even get "good Germans" who were "just following orders" off the hook
>at Nuremberg. BTW, I don't excuse Joseph Kennedy either, who supported
>Hitler (because he supported Irish nationalism), until Schickelgruber killed
>his eldest son.....I find this equally apalling and under reported.
>Churchill was a great man, FDR a thug.
The people of the US voted him his power. The US considered rounding up
Germans in WWI, too many and too diverse. Eisenhower was German.
Churchill was a thug, too. Pretty much all of our leaders are thugs.
I do admire Doenitz for exposing American "hypocracy" during his trial.
He was clearly following orders. He was a very capable American opponent.
I need to run, meeting shortly.
> Earl Warren and other Californians and West
>> coasters were far more to blame. Mere war time? Or more?
>
>Oh Christ, don't get me started on Earl Warren. Yes, there was anti-Japanese
>and anti-asian sentiment in the US, still is today. The attack on Pearl
Oh, tell me about it. I can see it in meetings.
>Harbor profoundly shocked and outraged the American psyche, whereas our
>antagonism toward Nazi Germany was an incremental process, lacking a signal
>attrocity like PH for entry into WWII. There was also the crass motivation
Starting wars is an interesting thing. Witness how the US did it in Bagdad.
8^)
>of stealing someone elses property under cover of wartime and the flag, re
>Japanese Americans. I blame our leaders most, not the followers, though all
>must accept blame for this vile episode in American history. What many do
>not understand is that the Japanese FDR Gulagged were most profoundly
>American. Not to shift the guilt, Japanese in American camps fared much
this is true.
>better than the Americans and others in Japanese camps did. I remember when
>(pres?, VP?) went to Hirihito's funeral. MANY of those who were old enough
>to remember WWII were just livid, just furious, that we would attend his
>funeral. I was really surprised at the depth of resentment after 50 years.
It's deep, and it's with Germans as wellas I have seen.
>> >The rangers got clobbered at Pont du Hoc, but took it.
>> They have pretty awful stories.
>Yes, It was a blood bath.
It wasn't merely a blood bath, but also unnecessary as there were no big
gun yet in place.
But that's war for ya.
>A knowing military man said something to the effect, "Surrender of prisoners
>is best arranged between large military units during time of cease fire."
I'd have to ask Lester about that. He was the friend's father who was
at Batiaan.
>Latin gives a great insight into most european languages & civilisation,
>where Rome once held sway.
Some what.
The Greeks were more admirable ins many ways. But also not perfect.
>The UK is a political unit, not a national unit. While the Isles prior to
>William the Conqueror in 1066, were a succession of invasions and
>settlements by ausslanders, the most meaningful division is that between
>Celts and non-Celtic peoples. The Romans were not Celtic, nor were the
>Angles and Saxons, nor the Vikings, nor were the Normans, nor were the
>various ethnic groups necessarily ruled by their own indiginous nobles. The
>Scots brought Christianity to Ireland, but the Irish peopled Dalriadic
>Scotland with Scots, while chasing other Celts & Picts & Romans & Germanic
>tribes around with fire & sword, and vice versa. It's a very interesting
>hodge-podge. One of the most interesting books on the subject I've seen is
>"An Introduction to Anglo Saxon England", by Peter Hunter Blair, Cambridge
>University Press. I don't know if you like this kind of stuff, but I thrive
>on it.
I'm on the margins.
It's interesting to me to watch the EU. Germany is uniting, the people in
Europe realize that to keep up with the US, they have to learn to work
together. They realize that there are other parts of the work, the
Chinese and the Japanese and the other Asian tiger countries.
I see that a lot of Europeans want to move on. The past was fun,
but that's not the new Economic order.
It's like something the Russians (and the US) realized with the end of
the Cold War as Victor Posner (the journalist) was being interviewed
at a Moscow TV studio: all the equipment around him was labeled "Sony."
Churchill inherited and passed on an interest in being nosy.
That's why we can't complain about a loss of privacy.
Pete Hickey
tell what the technique is....
--
Pete Hickey | Pe...@mudhead.uottawa.CA
Communication Services | Hate Spam? Check out my spam song:
University of Ottawa |
Ottawa,Ont. Canada K1N 6N5| http://mudhead.uottawa.ca/~pete/spam_song.html
Eugene Miya
Pete Hickey <pe...@bitman.uottawa.ca.DELETE.ME> wrote:
>See Mark... That trick of mine just worked. See if you can
>tell what the technique is....
Very good, 2 points.
Eugene Miya
Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>I think that you can find trees this size in Berkeley, and maybe not too
>>far from the Silicon Valley. But it's not the individual tree, it's
>>seeing acres and acres of them. Or not.
>
>Indeed. Until I went to the Sierra I had seen trees but not forests.
Then it is important for you as a European to point that out to North
(and South) Americans.
>>Did you get over to the White Mountains and the Bristlecone?
>
>Not yet. They've been on my list for nearly 20 years - since I read
>Colin Fletcher's Thousand Mile Summer.
They tend to be subtle.
>>>>the mighty Larch!
>>>>Python pun pun pun.....
>>>But no lumberjacks.....
>>British Columbia, Alberta, leaping from tree to treee.
>Have you seen the version of this they did for German TV? With the
>Pythons all wearing lederhosen and those little hats with feathers in?
Yes.
No interest in lederhosen. I get asked that.
One of my hoteliers did wear the Swiss women's cultural equivalent.
>I counted the rings on a Scots pine that came down in a storm not far
>from home. Hard to do near the centre but it was well over 100 years
>old.
If you visit the logging museums in Oregon, Redwoods, you will find huge
thousand year plus cross-sections.
Very hard to core very large trees.
Eugene Miya
Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>the Lake District
>It's worth it if you're ever over again. But it's small. 50 miles
>across. I'm surprised at the tiny size going back there from the
>Highlands.
Well, the list of "ifs" can get too long: Hoy, Lundy, Ben Nevis (depends
on season of course), Cambridge again, London again, Glasgow, Hadrian's
Wall, Lake Dist., Wales, Portmeiron (Prisoner fan friends), BP,
Edinb., etc.etc.
>>Rousseau also influenced others like Emerson, Thoreau, Ruskin,
>>Bierstadt, Cole, etc.
>
>Ripples spreading out. Not that Ruskin liked climbers - greasy poles and
>all that. And Emerson influenced Muir of course.
Ruskin is an interesting case for the aesthetic preservationists.
He is a very good writer, and an interesting architecture critic,
but he's like McCarthy not enough empirical.
>>Muir was important because he was a practicioner.
>
>That's one of the things I like.
You are aware of the Dunedin (sp?) people (web site, etc.) about Muir.
Gee, they want me to visit, too.
>>funicular
>
>Whereas here it's because people think they can make some money out of
>it.
That, too.
>Here it's because they can't make money during the ski season! They hope
>the funicular will bring summer visitors.
Well it runs out in the US, most of the LARGER ski resorts don't make
money in the winter, they make it in the summer.
Eugene Miya
Mark McGilvray <mcgi...@ns.net> wrote:
>"Eugene Miya" <eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> wrote in message
>news:3a56828f$1...@news.ucsc.edu...
>> In article <PQs56.5169$1%2.25...@sjc-read.news.verio.net>,
>> Mark McGilvray <mcgi...@ns.net> wrote:
>> >I have limited sympathy for european kibbitzing in our politics. They
>have a
>> >checkered past which doesn't pass the smell test.
>> Well those are 1920s words, and that was League of Nations time and
>> US Isolationsism. The world's a different place. Bush's father was the
>> one who coined the term "New World Order." We are past "gentlemen"
>> and Stimson, and we just "finished "deterrence."
>
>These are not 1920's isolationist words.
They largely, basically are, I'd just accept it Mark.
>I refuse to blandly accept
>criticism of American politics from a bunch of degenerate socialists who
Well the world has changed since then.
>have given us the likes of Hitler, Stalin (stretch), and Mussollini. When
I think Il Duce's grand daughter was elected to their parliment.
>the old world aristocracy became so degenerate it could no longer
>incestuously interbreed it gave us socialism. We are a sovereign nation, and
>as such I could give a damn less what "the world" thinks of us. BTW, I do
20s.
>not support puttin the boot to the rest of the world just because we imagine
>we have the power to do it. I don't tell europeans how to run their internal
>politics. I forgive the Brits because they gave us Churchill.
In a way, the US thru media does inspire the Europeans to rule:
all those movies, TV shows, and 501s.
Churchill is one of the chief reasons why your privacy is disappearing
(it would have happened anyway).
>> >> >> >economics
>> BTW Mark, not really a solid science. ;^)
>> Quite descriptive and dismal.
>
>Very funny. I'm reading chicken entrails as we speak.
econ.: still not a solid science.
We humans are filled with contradiction.
>> I just drove through AZ. It's a nice ideal until the smoke stack
>> effluent drifts over you.
>
>Try lighting your house with whale oil lamps.
That's the problem with boundaries,
also which fire dept. comes after you went the lamp catches the curtins
on fire.
>No doubt there is overcutting of timber in Oregon & Washington. There is
>overfishing in the oceans. I would be delighted to see intelligent solutions
>brought to the table, instead of political clap.
For fish, I suspect it's too late.
Trees: hard to say. Maybe too late.
>> European forests are pitiful. I see why they like visiting the Redwoods.
>> It's the first and second derivatives which are the current problems.
>
>Is this a differential equation?
Expressable as one. One would clearly have to iterate on the quality
of the equation.
>> It's not just woods, it's the fishing industry (I remember when
>> California had a Tuna industry), and others.
>
>There is no reason it can't again.
You'd have to bring the tuna back to Peru. Then back to CA.
I fail to see an improvement in the situation.
>> At this time, most aren't armed. Escalation only works so far.
>
>I understand why the europeans do this. We are lucky to have huge areas of
>public land (if the econazis don't restrict all access to this). Private
>property means private. there is a process for taking private property for
>public use, upon just compensation. The Rockefeller's owning the Grand
>Tetons would be a reasonable use of this doctrine. I'm sorry, giving any
>asshole access to my property without my consent is just plain unacceptable.
It's all in the semantics (it's why the courts exist to interpret
private. The Brits merely defined private. You have other options, too.
>I've a gedanken experiment for you, Gene. It's superbowl Sunday. Some of my
>disposessed brethren and I decide Eugene Miya should give us access to his
>home, his television, and all mannner of other real and private property.
>Thanks, Gene! Say, you've got more here than I thought - we'll just stay
>here in your back yard. Well, except when it rains....
I knew you would suggest that because that Sunday is a day I go skiing.
I merely want access to your football widow wife or girlfriend.
The TV is yours.
>> More fun topic:
>Indeed
>> Got photos back.
>Transparencies or prints? I'd like to see them if you post any.
Transparencies. Not planning to post any specifically.
Sent one of last year's as a card (Pete, Jerry, Ed, and a slew of others
decided on it and got it: you can get one minus the Swiss stamp
if you want one.
>
>I have pulled in my alpine climbing horns for safer stuff. I've been
>climbing the "classics" at Lover's Leap. I got the Line, Travellers
>buttress, Labo of Love, and a bunch of other stuff. Walk-off descents are
>wonderful.
Walk offs make things nice. Did those. A climbing partner nearly lost
his foot a few years back with another partner on Travellers (hey Mark
that's a "Pinko" route).
>Be prepared to spend 3 weeks in a tent waiting for a shot at it. I think I
>would as soon tackle the Cassin Ridge on Denali, were I in a risk taking
>mode.
Comes with the territory.
One of my partners did the Cassin. It's not that bad a route.
But lots of fixed rope.
Eugene Miya
Mark McGilvray <mcgi...@ns.net> wrote:
>Gedanken experiments yield the critical insight when creative genius is
>brought to bear. I think of models as more an organizational tool.
If a Gedanken experiment does not match experimental observation, then
it's merely philosophy.
>The discovery of new phenomenon will drive the gedanken experiment that
>cracks a formerly "insoluble" problem.
>Piltdown man lives!
We still don't "know" how superconductive works.
>> [solar radiation] Also on the ocean which covers so much of the earth.
>Yes, the oceans drive much of our weather and other atmospheric phenomena
A part of it.
>> asteroid movies out there.
>
>I suspect Sagan's assessment of asteroid impact on earth is largely valid.
Well I know botanists would would disagree with Carl (not in the
paleo-geologic record). We'll just have to wait and see.
>I hate to say I don't remember the name of the study. It gave extremely
>suspect results which were extrapolated to "global warming". Again, I'll
>have to hunt the reference up.
Carl didn't do warming. He's cooling following a 1,000 MT nuclear exchange.
>I have no bone to pick with anyone attempting to model atmospheres. I do
>remain skeptical of the extent to which these models map reality.
Well I think most atmospheres people are skeptical of their competitors models.
The problem for most people is the speed which a lot of scientists
change horses (an old prof compared it chasing whores) in mid-stream.
>> Toward the end of Carl's life during the Gulf battle, he kinda ignored
>> the stratosphere and thought the troposphere where the fires were
>> burning, would have the winter problem.
>
>Like I say, none of these models can accurately predict the weather, let
>alone consistently.
So you ignore the NWS forecasts on the news eh?
>I'm sitting here in the "single A" dugout criticising the Major Leaguers,
>but some of these guys lack genius. I think Linus Pauling (who logged some
>really crackpot ideas) was a true genius, and that showboats like Sagan are
>lost in his shadow.
Next to me is an X-mas of one of Linus' grandkids. Linus was a showman
in his day. Linus just thought medicine was a black art. Carl cetainly
didn't do major league discoveries like the Alpha-helix.
>> IF you have problem with the atmospheric community, sci.geo.meteorology
>> is the place. I eat lunch with some of the guys studying the ozone holes
>> (S and N) and fly U-2s to collect O3.
>
>My problem is with politically driven "science", or with scientists who
>allow their work to be co-opted by political hacks for propaganda.
That's when policy affects economics.
>I'm all for parks and preservation. I'm utterly opposed to socialism and
>fascism operating behind a veneer of science.
Have and encourage people to have fewer kids.
You just have to remember Mark, how you plan to define boundaries/borders.
You still have to answer the Arizona effluents problem because
that's where you problems are going to lie. It can can be as simple as
a person smoking a cigarette.
>I'll go read TTAPS.
Science (the journal) in the mid-1980s.
Chris Townsend
<eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> writes
>In article <UR4gKxA7...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
>Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>the Lake District
>>
>>It's worth it if you're ever over again. But it's small. 50 miles
>>across. I'm surprised at the tiny size going back there from the
>>Highlands.
>
>Well, the list of "ifs" can get too long: Hoy, Lundy, Ben Nevis (depends
>on season of course), Cambridge again, London again, Glasgow, Hadrian's
>Wall, Lake Dist., Wales, Portmeiron (Prisoner fan friends), BP,
>Edinb., etc.etc.
All worth visiting of course. There's much more to the Highlands than
Ben Nevis, as I'm sure you know. The Ben is good any time of the year as
long as you take one of the scrambling or climbing routes and not the
standard and tedious footpath.
Portmeiron is a weird place.
>
>
>>>Muir was important because he was a practicioner.
>>
>>That's one of the things I like.
>
>You are aware of the Dunedin (sp?) people (web site, etc.) about Muir.
>Gee, they want me to visit, too.
I wasn't. I'll look it up. Thanks.
There are too many good websites. It's impossible to keep up.
>
>>>funicular
>>
>>Whereas here it's because people think they can make some money out of
>>it.
>
>That, too.
>
>>Here it's because they can't make money during the ski season! They hope
>>the funicular will bring summer visitors.
>
>Well it runs out in the US, most of the LARGER ski resorts don't make
>money in the winter, they make it in the summer.
>
The model for Aviemore - the village nearest the funicular - seems to be
Whistler.
Cairn Gorm is of course a tiny resort. It's basically two small bowls
and the ridge in between them.
Chris Townsend
<eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> writes
>In article <Zhjj2vAU...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
>Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>I think that you can find trees this size in Berkeley, and maybe not too
>>>far from the Silicon Valley. But it's not the individual tree, it's
>>>seeing acres and acres of them. Or not.
>>
>>Indeed. Until I went to the Sierra I had seen trees but not forests.
>
>Then it is important for you as a European to point that out to North
>(and South) Americans.
I try. It is perhaps easier for non-Americans to see what you still have
left. Abbey knew though. Muir and Fletcher are both immigrants of
course, starting out as Brits.
I'm in the odd position of my main book publishers being in North
America but my magazine work being in the UK. I'm currently writing a
book on Arizona that probably won't get published here.
>
>
>>I counted the rings on a Scots pine that came down in a storm not far
>>from home. Hard to do near the centre but it was well over 100 years
>>old.
>
>If you visit the logging museums in Oregon, Redwoods, you will find huge
>thousand year plus cross-sections.
>
>Very hard to core very large trees.
>
I can imagine. I must visit those logging museums.
I live in the heart of what was once one of the biggest logging areas in
Scotland. There are photographs of huge rafts of massive logs being
floated down the river Spey that could have been taken in British
Columbia.
That's why only 1 percent of the old Caledonian Forest still exists.
Mark McGilvray
> In article <9Z266.5368$1%2.27...@sjc-read.news.verio.net>,
> Mark McGilvray <mcgi...@ns.net> wrote:
>
> Compared to some European countries, we have an amature military.
> It's certainly civilian controlled (even Curtis LeMay, whom I am readin
> gabout agreed with it, but that's didn't stop him from planning WWIII).
America has managed to maintain civilian control over the military and its
generals. LeMay was not allowed to step over the line. Planning for and
fighting are two differrent things. MacArthur was canned by Harry Truman -
an object lesson in civilian control of the American military.
>
> Mr. Spielberg has found ways to tug people's (not just America's)
> emotion strings from the days of Duel and Jaws to now. Ryan wasn't too
> bad. For him, it was playing Army as many of us did growing up.
> Schendler's List is likely is best film so far. Ryan was far better
> than Mallocks (sp) film which name escapes me.
>
> I think that in part because the US ignores its vets, the civilians at
> home get ahead. That's a cold reality.
The US doesn't ignore its vets, it just doesn't honor them in a consistent
manner. Viet Nam vets were shit on by a huge proportion of the country -
it's inexcusable.
>
> As far as prisons go, I grew up in a very integrated part of LA.
> I dislike the stats that some of the black and hispanic friends that I
> grew up that a disproportionate percentage of them by stats encounter
> trouble in their lives. As I noted, Don Hewitt did a 60 Minutes piece
> on all of us back in 1970.
It is as much cultural attitudes toward the law as anything.
>
> >Don't excuse FDR. He was GOD and president at this time and could have
> >stopped the gulagging of America's Japanese had he the balls. This
defense
> >didn't even get "good Germans" who were "just following orders" off the
hook
> >at Nuremberg. BTW, I don't excuse Joseph Kennedy either, who supported
> >Hitler (because he supported Irish nationalism), until Schickelgruber
killed
> >his eldest son.....I find this equally apalling and under reported.
> >Churchill was a great man, FDR a thug.
>
> The people of the US voted him his power.
As they do all presidents. He should have used this power to stop gulagging
the Japanese Americans. FDR held power no other president in this century
has wielded. To our shame he was a weak demagogue at heart.
The US considered rounding up
> Germans in WWI, too many and too diverse. Eisenhower was German.
> Churchill was a thug, too. Pretty much all of our leaders are thugs.
Churchill was the greatest english speaking statesman of the 20'th century.
What ever flaws he had, he was an astoundingly gifted man. If you find
yourself bored and want to read a 5,000 page history of WWII, read his. It
is an astounding work.
>
> I do admire Doenitz for exposing American "hypocracy" during his trial.
> He was clearly following orders. He was a very capable American opponent.
Doenitz was typical of many from the German military caste. I admire Rommel,
von Mannstein & others who were fine soldiers serving a leader beneath
contempt.
>
> > Earl Warren and other Californians and West
> >> coasters were far more to blame. Mere war time? Or more?
> >
> >Oh Christ, don't get me started on Earl Warren. Yes, there was
anti-Japanese
> >and anti-asian sentiment in the US, still is today. The attack on Pearl
>
> Oh, tell me about it. I can see it in meetings.
I wouldn't lose sleep over it.
>
> >Harbor profoundly shocked and outraged the American psyche, whereas our
> >antagonism toward Nazi Germany was an incremental process, lacking a
signal
> >attrocity like PH for entry into WWII. There was also the crass
motivation
>
> Starting wars is an interesting thing. Witness how the US did it in
Bagdad.
> 8^)
I have no regrets about the Gulf War other than that we did not run down
Saddam Hussein and execute him in the town square on prime time TV.
>
> >of stealing someone elses property under cover of wartime and the flag,
re
> >Japanese Americans. I blame our leaders most, not the followers, though
all
> >must accept blame for this vile episode in American history. What many do
> >not understand is that the Japanese FDR Gulagged were most profoundly
> >American. Not to shift the guilt, Japanese in American camps fared much
> this is true.
> >better than the Americans and others in Japanese camps did. I remember
when
> >(pres?, VP?) went to Hirihito's funeral. MANY of those who were old
enough
> >to remember WWII were just livid, just furious, that we would attend his
> >funeral. I was really surprised at the depth of resentment after 50
years.
>
> It's deep, and it's with Germans as wellas I have seen.
Well, the WWII generation is getting rather long in the tooth. I'm hoping
America can lose some of the prejudices stemming from this period with out
forgetting the important lessons learned.
>
> >> >The rangers got clobbered at Pont du Hoc, but took it.
> >> They have pretty awful stories.
> >Yes, It was a blood bath.
>
> It wasn't merely a blood bath, but also unnecessary as there were no big
> gun yet in place.
>
> But that's war for ya.
Who said "military intelligence" is an oxymoron? Hindsight is 20/20. They
thought there were guns there and reacted accordingly.
>
> >A knowing military man said something to the effect, "Surrender of
prisoners
> >is best arranged between large military units during time of cease fire."
>
> I'd have to ask Lester about that. He was the friend's father who was
> at Batiaan.
Trust me.
>
> >Latin gives a great insight into most european languages & civilisation,
> >where Rome once held sway.
>
> Some what.
> The Greeks were more admirable ins many ways. But also not perfect.
The Greeks gave us our ancient intellectual history, the Romans, our civic.
>
> >The UK is a political unit, not a national unit. While the Isles prior to
> >William the Conqueror in 1066, were a succession of invasions and
> >settlements by ausslanders, the most meaningful division is that between
> >Celts and non-Celtic peoples. The Romans were not Celtic, nor were the
> >Angles and Saxons, nor the Vikings, nor were the Normans, nor were the
> >various ethnic groups necessarily ruled by their own indiginous nobles.
The
> >Scots brought Christianity to Ireland, but the Irish peopled Dalriadic
> >Scotland with Scots, while chasing other Celts & Picts & Romans &
Germanic
> >tribes around with fire & sword, and vice versa. It's a very interesting
> >hodge-podge. One of the most interesting books on the subject I've seen
is
> >"An Introduction to Anglo Saxon England", by Peter Hunter Blair,
Cambridge
> >University Press. I don't know if you like this kind of stuff, but I
thrive
> >on it.
>
> I'm on the margins.
> It's interesting to me to watch the EU. Germany is uniting, the people in
> Europe realize that to keep up with the US, they have to learn to work
> together.
Germany uniting is not viewed with unanimous joy. Nations unite. They form
economic and political alliances to suit their interests with other nations.
They realize that there are other parts of the work, the
> Chinese and the Japanese and the other Asian tiger countries.
>
> I see that a lot of Europeans want to move on. The past was fun,
> but that's not the new Economic order.
>
> It's like something the Russians (and the US) realized with the end of
> the Cold War as Victor Posner (the journalist) was being interviewed
> at a Moscow TV studio: all the equipment around him was labeled "Sony."
>
> Churchill inherited and passed on an interest in being nosy.
> That's why we can't complain about a loss of privacy.
>
What makes you say that about Churchill? I would say J Edgar Hoover!
Mark McGilvray
> In article <jd466.5379$1%2.27...@sjc-read.news.verio.net>,
> Mark McGilvray <mcgi...@ns.net> wrote:
> >Gedanken experiments yield the critical insight when creative genius is
> >brought to bear. I think of models as more an organizational tool.
>
> If a Gedanken experiment does not match experimental observation, then
> it's merely philosophy.
Absolutely.
>
> >The discovery of new phenomenon will drive the gedanken experiment that
> >cracks a formerly "insoluble" problem.
> >Piltdown man lives!
>
> We still don't "know" how superconductive works.
Everything falls apart if we seek mechanism at asufficient level of detail.
>
> >> [solar radiation] Also on the ocean which covers so much of the earth.
> >Yes, the oceans drive much of our weather and other atmospheric phenomena
>
> A part of it.
>
> >> asteroid movies out there.
> >
> >I suspect Sagan's assessment of asteroid impact on earth is largely
valid.
>
> Well I know botanists would would disagree with Carl (not in the
> paleo-geologic record). We'll just have to wait and see.
Are we talking about an assessment that gave probabilities for asteroid
impact on the earth?
>
> >I hate to say I don't remember the name of the study. It gave extremely
> >suspect results which were extrapolated to "global warming". Again, I'll
> >have to hunt the reference up.
>
> Carl didn't do warming. He's cooling following a 1,000 MT nuclear
exchange.
OK. I've got this backwards.
>
> >I have no bone to pick with anyone attempting to model atmospheres. I do
> >remain skeptical of the extent to which these models map reality.
>
> Well I think most atmospheres people are skeptical of their competitors
models.
Isn't that the truth!
> The problem for most people is the speed which a lot of scientists
> change horses (an old prof compared it chasing whores) in mid-stream.
He is quite right.
>
> >> Toward the end of Carl's life during the Gulf battle, he kinda ignored
> >> the stratosphere and thought the troposphere where the fires were
> >> burning, would have the winter problem.
> >
> >Like I say, none of these models can accurately predict the weather, let
> >alone consistently.
>
> So you ignore the NWS forecasts on the news eh?
For the year I do. The NWS does a decent job on a 5 day forecast. Beyond
that they are guessing.
>
> >I'm sitting here in the "single A" dugout criticising the Major Leaguers,
> >but some of these guys lack genius. I think Linus Pauling (who logged
some
> >really crackpot ideas) was a true genius, and that showboats like Sagan
are
> >lost in his shadow.
>
> Next to me is an X-mas of one of Linus' grandkids. Linus was a showman
> in his day. Linus just thought medicine was a black art. Carl cetainly
> didn't do major league discoveries like the Alpha-helix.
I have no problem with showmanship if it is sufficiently backed by
achievemnt. Pauling was a genius.
MacArthur was a pima dona and horse's ass. Of Eisenhower hesaid he was an
excellent clerk. Of MacArthur, Eisenhower said he studied drama under him
for several years. MacArthur's genius was in how he dealt with Japan after
the war, and did not impose the debilitating an humiliating burden or
reparations on them that the Europeans did Germany after WWI - which gave
Hitler his springboard into politics.
>
> >> IF you have problem with the atmospheric community, sci.geo.meteorology
> >> is the place. I eat lunch with some of the guys studying the ozone
holes
> >> (S and N) and fly U-2s to collect O3.
> >
> >My problem is with politically driven "science", or with scientists who
> >allow their work to be co-opted by political hacks for propaganda.
>
> That's when policy affects economics.
How so?
>
> >I'm all for parks and preservation. I'm utterly opposed to socialism and
> >fascism operating behind a veneer of science.
>
> Have and encourage people to have fewer kids.
> You just have to remember Mark, how you plan to define boundaries/borders.
I'm in no hurry.
> You still have to answer the Arizona effluents problem because
> that's where you problems are going to lie.
I prefer nuclear power myself.
It can can be as simple as
> a person smoking a cigarette.
Let's not get too squirrelly here. everyone breathing is adding CO2 to the
atmosphere. I don't want to see breathing permits required from gov't
bureacrats and environmental impact reports to have children.
Ken Sykes
>
> Well, thank you, LuddLite. I will say you are more of a man than I thought.
> Detest away. I'll be glad to cross swords with you in the political threads
> anytime, but let's give the serious backcountry threads a break and not
> unnecessarily drag political posting there.
>
> "LuddLite" <Ludd...@large.com> wrote in message
> news:3A567C6C...@large.com...
> > Apparently I was mistaken thinking you stupid, and obviously you are
> > no nazi. I came to these conclusions based on your replies to 'Chaka',
> > and subsequently to me. Perhaps we are genetically predisposed to
> > detest one another, but I regret being hasty in my conclusions and
> > comments.
> >
> > LuddLite
> >
> > Mark McGilvray wrote:
> > >
> > ... some interesting observations
Now shake hands and come out fighting!
Tallyho!
KS
Mark McGilvray
> In article <pV466.5384$1%2.27...@sjc-read.news.verio.net>,
> Mark McGilvray <mcgi...@ns.net> wrote:
> >"Eugene Miya" <eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> wrote in message
> >news:3a56828f$1...@news.ucsc.edu...
> >> In article <PQs56.5169$1%2.25...@sjc-read.news.verio.net>,
> >> Mark McGilvray <mcgi...@ns.net> wrote:
> >> >I have limited sympathy for european kibbitzing in our politics. They
> >have a
> >> >checkered past which doesn't pass the smell test.
> >> Well those are 1920s words, and that was League of Nations time and
> >> US Isolationsism. The world's a different place. Bush's father was
the
> >> one who coined the term "New World Order." We are past "gentlemen"
> >> and Stimson, and we just "finished "deterrence."
> >
> >These are not 1920's isolationist words.
>
> They largely, basically are, I'd just accept it Mark.
Sorry, Gene, the answer is still NO.
> >I refuse to blandly accept
> >criticism of American politics from a bunch of degenerate socialists who
>
> Well the world has changed since then.
Everything changes relative to something else. Beware, I have swapped
intellectual kung-fuisms with the masters!
>
> >have given us the likes of Hitler, Stalin (stretch), and Mussollini. When
>
> I think Il Duce's grand daughter was elected to their parliment.
Well, it is Italy, I forgive them because their cuisine is to die for.
>
> >the old world aristocracy became so degenerate it could no longer
> >incestuously interbreed it gave us socialism. We are a sovereign nation,
and
> >as such I could give a damn less what "the world" thinks of us. BTW, I do
> 20s.
2001.
> >not support puttin the boot to the rest of the world just because we
imagine
> >we have the power to do it. I don't tell europeans how to run their
internal
> >politics. I forgive the Brits because they gave us Churchill.
>
> In a way, the US thru media does inspire the Europeans to rule:
> all those movies, TV shows, and 501s.
Explain?
>
> Churchill is one of the chief reasons why your privacy is disappearing
> (it would have happened anyway).
OK Why Churchill???????????????????????????????????????
>
> >> >> >> >economics
> >> BTW Mark, not really a solid science. ;^)
> >> Quite descriptive and dismal.
> >
> >Very funny. I'm reading chicken entrails as we speak.
>
> econ.: still not a solid science.
> We humans are filled with contradiction.
>
> >> I just drove through AZ. It's a nice ideal until the smoke stack
> >> effluent drifts over you.
> >
> >Try lighting your house with whale oil lamps.
>
> That's the problem with boundaries,
> also which fire dept. comes after you went the lamp catches the curtins
> on fire.
OK
>
> >No doubt there is overcutting of timber in Oregon & Washington. There is
> >overfishing in the oceans. I would be delighted to see intelligent
solutions
> >brought to the table, instead of political clap.
>
> For fish, I suspect it's too late.
> Trees: hard to say. Maybe too late.
Oh, give me a break! No doomsday here, please.
>
> >> European forests are pitiful. I see why they like visiting the
Redwoods.
> >> It's the first and second derivatives which are the current problems.
> >
> >Is this a differential equation?
>
> Expressable as one. One would clearly have to iterate on the quality
> of the equation.
>
> >> It's not just woods, it's the fishing industry (I remember when
> >> California had a Tuna industry), and others.
> >
> >There is no reason it can't again.
>
> You'd have to bring the tuna back to Peru. Then back to CA.
> I fail to see an improvement in the situation.
Why not?
>
> >> At this time, most aren't armed. Escalation only works so far.
> >
> >I understand why the europeans do this. We are lucky to have huge areas
of
> >public land (if the econazis don't restrict all access to this). Private
> >property means private. there is a process for taking private property
for
> >public use, upon just compensation. The Rockefeller's owning the Grand
> >Tetons would be a reasonable use of this doctrine. I'm sorry, giving any
> >asshole access to my property without my consent is just plain
unacceptable.
>
> It's all in the semantics (it's why the courts exist to interpret
> private. The Brits merely defined private. You have other options, too.
No, it is all as old as the English common law.
>
> >I've a gedanken experiment for you, Gene. It's superbowl Sunday. Some of
my
> >disposessed brethren and I decide Eugene Miya should give us access to
his
> >home, his television, and all mannner of other real and private property.
> >Thanks, Gene! Say, you've got more here than I thought - we'll just stay
> >here in your back yard. Well, except when it rains....
>
> I knew you would suggest that because that Sunday is a day I go skiing.
> I merely want access to your football widow wife or girlfriend.
> The TV is yours.
You are terrible! Nope.
>
> >> More fun topic:
> >Indeed
> >> Got photos back.
> >Transparencies or prints? I'd like to see them if you post any.
> Transparencies. Not planning to post any specifically.
> Sent one of last year's as a card (Pete, Jerry, Ed, and a slew of others
> decided on it and got it: you can get one minus the Swiss stamp
> if you want one.
> >
> >I have pulled in my alpine climbing horns for safer stuff. I've been
> >climbing the "classics" at Lover's Leap. I got the Line, Travellers
> >buttress, Labo of Love, and a bunch of other stuff. Walk-off descents are
> >wonderful.
>
> Walk offs make things nice. Did those. A climbing partner nearly lost
> his foot a few years back with another partner on Travellers (hey Mark
> that's a "Pinko" route).
Traveller's gets a pass from Joe McCarthy's ghost. It's a GREAT route.
>
> >Be prepared to spend 3 weeks in a tent waiting for a shot at it. I think
I
> >would as soon tackle the Cassin Ridge on Denali, were I in a risk taking
> >mode.
>
> Comes with the territory.
Sure does. Something about bad weather and snow.
> One of my partners did the Cassin. It's not that bad a route.
If conditions are right, I'm told it's great. On the other hand, if things
go to hell, it's pretty bleak on the upper part of the route. There are
certainly harder routes on Denali & elsewhere.
> But lots of fixed rope.
Fixed ropes are a great way to get killed.
>
Eugene Miya
Mark McGilvray <mcgi...@ns.net> wrote:
>> >These are not 1920's isolationist words.
>> They largely, basically are, I'd just accept it Mark.
>Sorry, Gene, the answer is still NO.
I hate to tell you this Mark, because it wastes your time and mine,
all of the lines you and I have posted have been said before.
>> >I refuse to blandly accept
>> >criticism of American politics from a bunch of degenerate socialists who
>> Well the world has changed since then.
>
>Everything changes relative to something else. Beware, I have swapped
>intellectual kung-fuisms with the masters!
Good, then you should know this ground is well trod.
>> >have given us the likes of Hitler, Stalin (stretch), and Mussollini. When
>> I think Il Duce's grand daughter was elected to their parliment.
>Well, it is Italy, I forgive them because their cuisine is to die for.
That's funny, my worse day on vacation, I barfed on an Italian train
after eating a tasty Italian meal. 1 day out of 30 ain't bad.
>> >the old world aristocracy became so degenerate it could no longer
>> >incestuously interbreed it gave us socialism. We are a sovereign nation,
>and
>> >as such I could give a damn less what "the world" thinks of us. BTW, I do
>> 20s.
>
>2001.
This part of the US and the world hasn't changed.
>> >not support puttin the boot to the rest of the world just because we
>imagine
>> >we have the power to do it. I don't tell europeans how to run their
>internal
>> >politics. I forgive the Brits because they gave us Churchill.
>> In a way, the US thru media does inspire the Europeans to rule:
>> all those movies, TV shows, and 501s.
>
>Explain?
All those WWII films, those episodes of Star Trek, those Levis commercials,
those cigarette ads are influencing the Brits, the French (enough though
they are loathed to admit is, like you loath to admit this thread),
the Germans, the Italians, and Mexico, etc. (the Muslims and the Chinese
are putting up some fight along with the French) are influencing these guys.
Before you say the perverbal "Good" it's a two edged sword.
It's a great way which some have noted to "take away" American jobs.
And that's only the beginning.
>> Churchill is one of the chief reasons why your privacy is disappearing
>> (it would have happened anyway).
>
>OK Why Churchill???????????????????????????????????????
How much reading have you done on Sir Winston? Quantity and quality?
Sir Winston was the first world leader who began to insist on building
the infrastructure (not FDR) which the McVeigh and other of the
anti-New-World order types can't stand (conspiracy types).
Stimson made the famous quote:
Gentlemen do not read each others mail.
He dropped that.
Sir Winston was a sort of thug. To a different degree than certain
other nasty people, but still a thug non the less. So was FDR. So was
former Pres. Bush, so is Mr. Clinton, so is just about any leader.
Mr. Churchill had his execution squads (Mr. Fleming was part of those).
There aren't gentlemen any more.
In a nut shell.
Unfortunately, we can't go back.
>> >> >> >> >economics
>> >> dismal science.
>> We humans are filled with contradiction.
>> >> I just drove through AZ. It's a nice ideal until the smoke stack
>> >> effluent drifts over you.
>>
>> That's the problem with boundaries,
>> also which fire dept. comes after you went the lamp catches the curtins
>> on fire.
>
>OK
The problem Mark is not your property.
The problem is your conduct off your property and the boundaries of
your proerty.
Most people tend to want to have their advantage.
But for instance, supposed you wanted to kill some one on your propery.
I'm not talking about an intruder. That's society extending into
your property, and there used to be people who felt property was that
way (still are in the case of polygamy). Does law extend into the air,
into space, on water, under groun in mineral rights? Those are
some of those boundaries. What are the right of the smoker (do you
smoke?) to the non-smoker (see the stack above).
>> >No doubt there is overcutting of timber in Oregon & Washington. There is
>> >overfishing in the oceans. I would be delighted to see intelligent
>> >solutions brought to the table, instead of political clap.
>>
>> For fish, I suspect it's too late.
>> Trees: hard to say. Maybe too late.
>
>Oh, give me a break! No doomsday here, please.
I didn't say doomsday.
Just go fishing Mark.
See what you catch.
>> >> California had a Tuna industry), and others.
>> >There is no reason it can't again.
>>
>> You'd have to bring the tuna back to Peru. Then back to CA.
>> I fail to see an improvement in the situation.
>
>Why not?
Because the Peruvians still insist on a 200 mile territoriallimit.
Let me know what that goes away and we can discuss a California Tuna
industry, unless you want to take over Peru and declare it part of
California.
True?
>> >> Escalation only works so far.
>> >public use, upon just compensation. The Rockefeller's owning the Grand
>> >Tetons would be a reasonable use of this doctrine. I'm sorry, giving any
>> It's all in the semantics (it's why the courts exist to interpret
>> private. The Brits merely defined private. You have other options, too.
>
>No, it is all as old as the English common law.
And that's part of why they are changing it.
"Let the Wookie win."
>> >I've a gedanken experiment for you, Gene. It's superbowl Sunday. Some of
>my
>> >disposessed brethren and I decide Eugene Miya should give us access to
>his
>> >home, his television, and all mannner of other real and private property.
>> >Thanks, Gene! Say, you've got more here than I thought - we'll just stay
>> >here in your back yard. Well, except when it rains....
>>
>> I knew you would suggest that because that Sunday is a day I go skiing.
>> I merely want access to your football widow wife or girlfriend.
>> The TV is yours.
>
>You are terrible! Nope.
Nope, you just don't know me well enough. Property is baggage.
As I think about the number of women who complain about being football
widows, the jocks deserve it.
Mark, David Lean, tried to show this in Dr. Zhivago decades ago.
It's well trod ground. The European countries didn't do the TV thing.
>> >> More fun topic:
>> >climbing the "classics" at Lover's Leap. I got the Line, Travellers
>
>Traveller's gets a pass from Joe McCarthy's ghost. It's a GREAT route.
Roper really like it. Steep not too hard. Just 1 5.9 move.
Sustained 5.7.
>> Comes with the territory.
>
>Sure does. Something about bad weather and snow.
Gravity is a harsh mistress.
>> One of my partners did the Cassin. It's not that bad a route.
>
>If conditions are right, I'm told it's great. On the other hand, if things
>go to hell, it's pretty bleak on the upper part of the route. There are
>certainly harder routes on Denali & elsewhere.
Escape is difficult.
The problem is that stupid people don't have the patience to watch for
weather patterns. Casuality count is now. Now the Wishbone that's
probably over 3 dozen dead Americans.
>> But lots of fixed rope.
>
>Fixed ropes are a great way to get killed.
You got that right.
Not lots of time Mark, lots of work.
Eugene Miya
>> it's merely philosophy.
>Absolutely.
I'm glad that we agree.
Know your limitations.
>> We still don't "know" how superconductive works.
>
>Everything falls apart if we seek mechanism at a sufficient level of detail.
I'm not certain what you mean by that. Atomic theory (that of indivisibility)
seems to be going in interesting (read tough) directions. If you mean
the "what's the length of the coast line of England?" which approaches
infinity as the length of your metric shrinks (non-linear
dynamics/chaos/fractals), that's not falling apart.
>> >> asteroid movies out there.
>> >I suspect Sagan's assessment of asteroid impact on earth is largely
>valid.
>>
>> Well I know botanists would would disagree with Carl (not in the
>> paleo-geologic record). We'll just have to wait and see.
>
>Are we talking about an assessment that gave probabilities for asteroid
>impact on the earth?
The probability of the Earth getting hit is 1.0.
A visit to Winslow's meteor crater (the film Star Man).
Whether species extinction took place 65 M years ago can be disputed,
the biotanists can point out problems. It's the details which are unknown.
If you want a list of things not known, this topic came up on a mailing
an amusing read is
The Encyclopedia of Ignorance
and I suggested
No Way: The Nature of the Impossible.
>> >I hate to say I don't remember the name of the study. It gave extremely
>> >suspect results which were extrapolated to "global warming". Again, I'll
>> >have to hunt the reference up.
>>
>> Carl didn't do warming. He's cooling following a 1,000 MT nuclear
>exchange.
>
>OK. I've got this backwards.
No problemo. You are keeping up.
>> >I have no bone to pick with anyone attempting to model atmospheres. I do
>> >remain skeptical of the extent to which these models map reality.
>>
>> Well I think most atmospheres people are skeptical of their competitors
>models.
>
>Isn't that the truth!
See you remember the process of science.
>> The problem for most people is the speed which a lot of scientists
>> change horses (an old prof compared it chasing whores) in mid-stream.
>
>He is quite right.
Yes, alas. Dave, whom I panel 16ed, died of brain cancer and his ashes
scattered over the Santa Barbara Channel. He invited me to Grad School,
which I never finished. From the Univ. of Tasmania.
>For the year I do. The NWS does a decent job on a 5 day forecast.
Ever consider why? The decent job?
>Beyond that they are guessing.
Ever see the footage of Richard Feynman lecturing at Cornell and say
that scientists guess? and the audience chuckles, and Dick is fully
serious?
>I have no problem with showmanship if it is sufficiently backed by
>achievement. Pauling was a genius.
Linus was. Much of his family is, too (his surviving kids, his grand kids,
and I'd bet his great grand kids).
>MacArthur was a prima dona and horse's ass. Of Eisenhower he said he was an
>excellent clerk. Of MacArthur, Eisenhower said he studied drama under him
Generals must know logistics.
>for several years. MacArthur's genius was in how he dealt with Japan after
>the war, and did not impose the debilitating an humiliating burden or
>reparations on them that the Europeans did Germany after WWI - which gave
>Hitler his springboard into politics.
The French and the British caused lots of problems with the Kaiser.
This complicated things for Churchill even after the war when he had to
track down and execute lower and middle level ex-Nazis without due
process and ignoring the US.
>> >My problem is with politically driven "science", or with scientists who
>> >allow their work to be co-opted by political hacks for propaganda.
>>
>> That's when policy affects economics.
>
>How so?
Where to you get your electrical power?
>> >I'm all for parks and preservation. I'm utterly opposed to socialism and
>> >fascism operating behind a veneer of science.
>> Have and encourage people to have fewer kids.
>> You just have to remember Mark, how you plan to define boundaries/borders.
>
>I'm in no hurry.
You don't have to hurry in 99% of your life.
But remember that timing is "almost" everything.
Each of your cited generals knew that. As did all the scientists.
I give you the benefit of the doubt in the 1%.
Do not forget Murphy's law. You know what will happen.
>> You still have to answer the Arizona effluents problem because
>> that's where you problems are going to lie.
>
>I prefer nuclear power myself.
Democracy was the policy selection mechanism.
I do too, to a degree. You have to change the economics a bit of the
fuel cycle a bit. It's tradeoffs Mark, it's the mathematical knapsack
problem (which is a conservation problem). Ansel Adams was pro-nuclear power.
Dave Brower was pro-nuke until about 1968. There are problems with
business men and economists running developing technologies. We DO have a
waste problem, and a big part of it is accentuated by the folk in
this own industry. I very nearly became one of those people.
If people vote coal fired plants, so be it. If brown outs are a consequence:
so be it. The majority gets what it deserves just like voting for news groups.
>>It can can be as simple as a person smoking a cigarette.
>
>Let's not get too squirrelly here. everyone breathing is adding CO2 to the
>atmosphere. I don't want to see breathing permits required from gov't
>bureacrats and environmental impact reports to have children.
Just a difference of scale.
Who said anything about CO2? That's almost harmless.
What about CO? What about particulates (this is the main one)?
Why do I, now an asthmatic, have to breath nicotine?
Why does NM have to inhale AZ's sulphur? Oh, never mind, you can't see
(sense) it. Out of sight, out of mind.
And this says nothing of problems like smoking in bed and falling asleep,
carpets catching fire in trains, outbuildings, etc.
I want a pistol with a suppressor, and more importantly, the mandate
to use it on any smoker that I please. "Hey you shot [and killed that
guy [smoker]].." "No problemo, I'm a Terminator (have a double-0 number)."
I have met "good" smokers, but very few. I promise to conserve my
ammunition. A mere few thousand rounds, but I doubt the public would
want to clean up my mess: I bet I'd have to fill out lots of forms,
have some one clean up the body. Etc. Wouldn't you know it: bureaucracy,
reports. And I bet I'd get lots of requests for hits
(the rounds are only for smokers. I'm serious about this.
Have even seen weapon choice. But the mandate is the important thing.
Net.shogunate-executioner.
>> >I'll go read TTAPS.
>> Science (the journal) in the mid-1980s.
See Mark, I tend to be a bit skeptical that you will find the TTAPS study.
Surprise me and do it. The vast major of people here are too lazy to
use libraries.
Eugene Miya
Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <3a5c0ae7$1...@news.ucsc.edu>, Eugene Miya
><eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> writes
>>In article <Zhjj2vAU...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
>>Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>Indeed. Until I went to the Sierra I had seen trees but not forests.
>>
>>Then it is important for you as a European to point that out to North
>>(and South) Americans.
>
>I try. It is perhaps easier for non-Americans to see what you still have
>left. Abbey knew though. Muir and Fletcher are both immigrants of
>course, starting out as Brits.
Colin is still around apparently working on films.
>I'm in the odd position of my main book publishers being in North
>America but my magazine work being in the UK. I'm currently writing a
>book on Arizona that probably won't get published here.
Happens. Most climbing books don't get published in the US.
Anderl's biography isn't published here; most Americans are clueless
about this.
>>If you visit the logging museums in Oregon, Redwoods, you will find huge
>>thousand year plus cross-sections.
>>Very hard to core very large trees.
>>
>I can imagine. I must visit those logging museums.
It's a dying way of life in the US. I know people on both sides of the issue.
The USFS people are circumspect. The loggers (most of them) have a
degree of denial and also a nice romantic vision of their lives. I got
my first hard hat out of all that, care of Gov. Ron Reagan (one of old
man's cronies).
>I live in the heart of what was once one of the biggest logging areas in
>Scotland. There are photographs of huge rafts of massive logs being
>floated down the river Spey that could have been taken in British
>Columbia.
>
>That's why only 1 percent of the old Caledonian Forest still exists.
Might be not long for the world. Have they determined an equilibrium point?
Eugene Miya
Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
...
>All worth visiting of course. There's much more to the Highlands than
>Ben Nevis, as I'm sure you know. The Ben is good any time of the year as
>long as you take one of the scrambling or climbing routes and not the
>standard and tedious footpath.
My view is sort of like an answer that one of my Oxford friends answered
when I asked about local (UK) skiing. He says that he goes to the Alps.
I get asked about good ice climbing in California, and I say straight
dead pan: Canada.
I had lunch with a Swiss Consular official yesterday as a debrief to my visit.
The UK doesn't do that yet (I mean they are well meaning guys: I know
that Nick is out there lurking). I'd be amused if the Austrians,
the Italians, or the French contact me.
The latter is a little bit more of a problem. The Swiss buy F/A-18s.
>Portmeiron is a weird place.
Oh yes, friends been there. Probably not backcountry.
The last trip was a work trip except weekends.
>>>>Muir was important because he was a practicioner.
>>You are aware of the Dunedin (sp?) people (web site, etc.) about Muir.
>>Gee, they want me to visit, too.
>
>I wasn't. I'll look it up. Thanks.
They contacted me early.
>There are too many good websites. It's impossible to keep up.
Search engines. Use Google. We funded that. Walked by the AltaVista
offices 2 hrs. ago (older tech).
>Cairn Gorm is of course a tiny resort. It's basically two small bowls
>and the ridge in between them.
Kids still dying out there, freezing to death because of their instructors?
Jerry M. Wright
wrote:
>In article <8l576.7078$1%2.31...@sjc-read.news.verio.net>,
>Mark McGilvray <mcgi...@ns.net> wrote:
[snip]
>
>>For the year I do. The NWS does a decent job on a 5 day forecast.
>
>Ever consider why? The decent job?
>
>>Beyond that they are guessing.
>
>Ever see the footage of Richard Feynman lecturing at Cornell and say
>that scientists guess? and the audience chuckles, and Dick is fully
>serious?
The backroom acronym is SWAG. Scientific Wild Ass Guess. Nothing
wrong with a guess, most of the problems occur in the follow up. It
has to be tested before being believed. Many people are content to
accept a nice sounding argument. And, if you test you have to go
with the results. Lots of people hang on to favorite ideas in spite
of negative evidence. If it isn't testable, it becomes a
philosophical point.
Chris Townsend
<eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> writes
>In article <KNVndGAJ...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
>Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>...
>>All worth visiting of course. There's much more to the Highlands than
>>Ben Nevis, as I'm sure you know. The Ben is good any time of the year as
>>long as you take one of the scrambling or climbing routes and not the
>>standard and tedious footpath.
>
>My view is sort of like an answer that one of my Oxford friends answered
>when I asked about local (UK) skiing. He says that he goes to the Alps.
>I get asked about good ice climbing in California, and I say straight
>dead pan: Canada.
Of course if you're in Oxford the Alps are almost as near and probably
more accessible than the Scottish resorts. England has none. Why anyone
travels any distance to alpine ski in Scotland I cannot imagine. I was
out today - a nice tour on good snow under a bright sun, unusual in
January. I came down the empty pistes in the dark (the best time in my
opinion). It was the worst snow of the day, the narrow trails between
the snow fences hammered to concrete by myriad skis and snowboards and
then the chunks of ice smashed back into corduroy by the piste bashers.
The Ben is supposed to be excellent for winter climbing - I've done a
few easy routes, I'm not really a climber. It certainly looks
spectacular. Chouinard has climbed there - it's in Climbing Ice. "Full
conditions" are common of course.
>>Portmeiron is a weird place.
>
>Oh yes, friends been there. Probably not backcountry.
Definitely not backcountry. But some nice pleasant rural country
roundabout.
>>There are too many good websites. It's impossible to keep up.
>
>Search engines. Use Google. We funded that. Walked by the AltaVista
>offices 2 hrs. ago (older tech).
Google is great. I use it all the time. Since I discovered it I haven't
used any other search engines. Thanks for funding it!
>
>>Cairn Gorm is of course a tiny resort. It's basically two small bowls
>>and the ridge in between them.
>
>Kids still dying out there, freezing to death because of their instructors?
>
You have a long memory! That was 1972 I think. No big disasters like
that since, thank goodness, but people die on the Cairngorms every year,
especially in winter. They may only be 4,000' high but the climate is
sub arctic. 100+mph winds are not uncommon in winter and mist and cloud
can sweep in rapidly. That's where I was today - I skied past the site
of that accident. There was cloud in the glens below and covering all
the peaks to the south - half an inversion. But on the tops it was
superb for once.
Chris Townsend
<eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> writes
>In article <V9pgRJA6SHX6EwY$@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
>Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>In article <3a5c0ae7$1...@news.ucsc.edu>, Eugene Miya
>><eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> writes
>>>In article <Zhjj2vAU...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
>>>Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>Indeed. Until I went to the Sierra I had seen trees but not forests.
>>>
>>>Then it is important for you as a European to point that out to North
>>>(and South) Americans.
>>
>>I try. It is perhaps easier for non-Americans to see what you still have
>>left. Abbey knew though. Muir and Fletcher are both immigrants of
>>course, starting out as Brits.
>
>Colin is still around apparently working on films.
Last summer I did a radio programme for BBC Radio Scotland called In
Search of Wilderness. This involved reading short pieces of wilderness
literature. One of my choices was by Colin Fletcher. When the producers
contacted him for permission he not only said yes but offered to read
the piece himself so my episode ended with him reading, which was great.
I think it's the first time he's been on UK radio. He's virtually
unknown in Britain. None of his books have ever been published here. You
can get them through amazon etc of course.
>
>>I'm in the odd position of my main book publishers being in North
>>America but my magazine work being in the UK. I'm currently writing a
>>book on Arizona that probably won't get published here.
>
>Happens. Most climbing books don't get published in the US.
>Anderl's biography isn't published here; most Americans are clueless
>about this.
Hasn't the Everest boom made a difference to this? Or is it only Everest
people are interested in?
What I buy in the US are wilderness philosophy, environmental and
walking books. That's how I discovered Abbey.
John Muir was little known in Scotland (and it still little known in
England) until about a decade ago when a conservation group was formed
called the John Muir Trust (who now own Ben Nevis). He's still not
studied or understood in the way he is in the States.
>
>>>If you visit the logging museums in Oregon, Redwoods, you will find huge
>>>thousand year plus cross-sections.
>>>Very hard to core very large trees.
>>>
>>I can imagine. I must visit those logging museums.
>
>It's a dying way of life in the US. I know people on both sides of the issue.
>The USFS people are circumspect. The loggers (most of them) have a
>degree of denial and also a nice romantic vision of their lives. I got
>my first hard hat out of all that, care of Gov. Ron Reagan (one of old
>man's cronies).
Fishing seems to be going the same way here. Logging now means
commercial plantations - of which there are too many in Scotland. What
I'd like to see would be native forests with selective felling in
certain areas only so that regeneration always takes place. They do this
in many parts of Norway.
>
>>I live in the heart of what was once one of the biggest logging areas in
>>Scotland. There are photographs of huge rafts of massive logs being
>>floated down the river Spey that could have been taken in British
>>Columbia.
>>
>>That's why only 1 percent of the old Caledonian Forest still exists.
>
>Might be not long for the world. Have they determined an equilibrium point?
>
Experts generally reckon a few decades more and it would be too late. I
think it's been saved at the last minute. The big old trees are 200-300
years old and don't produce as much seed as younger trees. However in
many areas the old trees have recently either been fenced so deer and
sheep can't get at the seedlings or the deer and sheep numbers have been
reduced to a level where they don't eat all the seedlings. It's amazing
to see young pines springing up in areas where there have been no young
trees for hundreds of years. In other areas where there are no old trees
Scots pines grown from native seed are being planted.