Terrain definitions?
rick
For example: What is the difference between a valley, a canyon, a ravine
and gulch?
Thanks!
Eugene Miya
This will likely not be enough.
Once you have the basics down, look for a textbook on geomorphology.
This won't be enough either, because some of the features like couloirs,
cwms, zawns, aiguilles, gendarmes, in French, Welsh, Nepelese and what ever
language is in common use will only come up regionally or in technical
usage. Certain specific obscure terms say rognon or bergschrund
if not in dictionaries you can ask in sci.geo.geology.
Kurt Knisely
Sorry, this link doesn't answer your question, but it's pretty neat (for
lanugage cross-references):
http://utter.chaos.org.uk/cucc/expo/handbook/vocab.htm
This one is sorta' funny (w/ some good definitions):
http://adventureteam.com/climbingdictionary.htm#c
"Freedom of the Hills" by The Mountaineers has a few pages devoted to
terrain definitions.
An old out-of-print book: Ski Mountaineering by Peter Cliff does too (you
can find it at a large public library).
--
kurt uses xmission
Ben Haupt
Kurt Knisely wrote:
>
> rick wrote:
> >
> > Where can I find (preferably online) a good source for terrain definitions?
>
> "Freedom of the Hills" by The Mountaineers has a few pages devoted to
> terrain definitions.
This is a good book to have around for reference for other things too...
--
Benjamin G. Haupt | Editorial opinions are those of BGH not FMI.
Staff Engineer |
Foster-Miller, Inc. |
Eugene Miya
>> For example: What is the difference between a valley, a canyon, a ravine
>> and gulch?
Basically very little. Same goes for gullys, and couloirs.
The main difference will be that the valley usually has a noticeably
flat bottom. Any river (these carve most of the above) will be slow and
meandering with with many bends or braids. The old distinction is
U-shaped vs. V-shaped. The V-shaped ones carved by the action of water
have steep sides, bascially as mentioned at my lunch at the angle of repose.
The U-shaped ones tend to be glaciated. You want to gain some sort of
sense what processes were involved in formation and their consequences
for that you see. Minor variations will exist like say slot canyons.
Jerry M. Wright
wrote:
>Start with a physical geography textbook at the public library.
Another location is www.dictionary.com. It is amazingly broad in
coverage. Details of definitions are spotty in depth, some are
exacting in detail others are not. Especially for medical/biological
terms because it also searches the Gray Laboratories on-line medical
dictionary.
>This will likely not be enough.
>Once you have the basics down, look for a textbook on geomorphology.
>This won't be enough either, because some of the features like couloirs,
>cwms, zawns, aiguilles, gendarmes, in French, Welsh, Nepelese and what ever
>language is in common use will only come up regionally or in technical
>usage. Certain specific obscure terms say rognon or bergschrund
>if not in dictionaries you can ask in sci.geo.geology.
>
Bergschrund, cwym couliors are in it the rest aren't.
Eugene Miya
Jerry M. Wright <wrig...@erols.com> wrote:
>Another location is www.dictionary.com. It is amazingly broad in
>coverage. Details of definitions are spotty in depth, some are
>exacting in detail others are not. Especially for medical/biological
>terms because it also searches the Gray Laboratories on-line medical
>dictionary.
Yeah, it's not bad.
The basic problem with dictionaries is remembering to spell accurately
enough, and stemming (prefixes and suffixes), and the quirks of the
English language.
>>This will likely not be enough.
>>Once you have the basics down, look for a textbook on geomorphology.
>>This won't be enough either, because some of the features like couloirs,
>>cwms, zawns, aiguilles, gendarmes, in French, Welsh, Nepelese and what ever
>>language is in common use will only come up regionally or in technical
>>usage. Certain specific obscure terms say rognon or bergschrund
>>if not in dictionaries you can ask in sci.geo.geology.
>>
>Bergschrund, cwym couliors are in it the rest aren't.
Kewl!
Speaking of Doug Adams in the other thread, there is Babblefish as part of
Altavista for translations. The problem is not knowing the meaningless
of certain translations as a co-worker who knew Spanish, really pointed out.
"Wuhy duh yu dink I have de heavy accent???"
--MP and Holy Grail.
Kurt Knisely
>
> >rick wrote:
> >> For example: What is the difference between a valley, a canyon, a ravine
> >> and gulch?
>
> Basically very little. Same goes for gullys, and couloirs.
I've been thinkin'... a scary thought!
Rick, I'm sure you'll find your valley or canyon definitions.
I tend to think that ravine and gulch are pretty close. In the desert,
lots of drainages are labeled "gulch". I visualize (in the desert) a gulch
as being a dry creekbed most of the year, flowing towards a (dry?) river in
a valley. I see very steep if not vertical (usually dirt, not rock) walls
on the sides of the gulch. I tend to think they've been formed by
flash-floods. The ones I visualize might be fairly wide near the valley
bottom (maybe up to 15 -> 20 meters wide), but many I've seen are a meter
or two deep and sometimes only 2 -> 3 meters wide. There's usually some
kind of thicker vegetation near the gulch due to the higher potential for
water. Most of the time you can find critters, snakes and lizards living
in and near the gulches (it's also cooler in there so, in hot weather, find
a North facing slope under a nice tree to cool off in the shade).
--
kurt uses xmission
Ed Kuivanen
"Kurt Knisely" <pcpi...@nospam.please> wrote in message
news:3B0B14A3...@nospam.please...
In the for what its worth department:
I suspect the terms vary regionally, in my lexicon, a valley, a canyon, a
ravine, a gulch, & gullies are all members of the set - valley. Couloirs
are not in my lexicon. Anyway, in the specific, valleys, to me, are created
by meandering rivers with wide enough bottoms to support habitation. A
canyon is a large, or otherwise remarkable, valley, with sheer walls. A
ravine is a steeply cut river course, with a "v" shaped cross section and
smaller in the subset of valleys. Gulch, is a term I have never used to
describe anything meaningful. A gully, a term I haven't used since
childhood, seems to be a watercourse, small, a shallow "u"-shape in cross
section, which at one time supported a stream capable of erosion, but which
now seems to have changed course, dried up, or otherwise become intermittent
in flow. It would mostly likely be found in association with a meandering
water course.
I'd be interested in hearing others perceptions of these terms.
Ed
Eric J. Anderson
>
> I've been thinkin'... a scary thought!
> Rick, I'm sure you'll find your valley or canyon definitions.
>
> I tend to think that ravine and gulch are pretty close. In the desert,
> lots of drainages are labeled "gulch".
I can't think of a single (uppercase) "Ravine" in southern Arizona.
We do have several Gulches. In general, around these parts:
"Valleys" are the broad plains between mountain ranges.
(Geographically speaking "basin" would be more accurate.)
"Canyons" are the larger drainages within or coming out of the
mountains. "Gulches" are usually smaller than canyons and are
often quite rocky. I tend to think of ravines and gulches as
regional labels for similar features. For example, in Arizona
a dry creek bed is referred to as a "wash." In Texas and New
Mexico a dry creek bed is referred to as a "draw." Cultural
geography?
Then again, we often refer to "box canyons" which are little
removed from what somebody else might call a gulch or ravine,
though they are usually a drainage (wider than a slot canyon)
in which climbing out the sides would difficult or impossible.
Some people (like my Dad) think of box canyons as one in which
you will eventually be cliffed out from continuing. That's
not usually the case in Arizona...though sometimes.
> I visualize (in the desert) a gulch
> as being a dry creekbed most of the year, flowing towards a (dry?) river in
> a valley. I see very steep if not vertical (usually dirt, not rock) walls
> on the sides of the gulch.
Slavin Gulch in the Dragoons is mostly rocky and has a bit of
water in it for much of the year. Vegetation is pretty thick.
It actually varies quite a bit in character...its mouth is about
the narrowest part, much like a sorta steep box canyon. The upper
part is more like a regular mountain canyon. I'm sure it's named
for the lower part.
Eric
Eugene Miya
rick wrote:
>> >> For example: What is the difference between a valley, a canyon, a ravine
>> >> and gulch?
Eugene Miya wrote:
>> Basically very little. Same goes for gullys, and couloirs.
In article <3B0B14A3...@nospam.please>,
Kurt Knisely <pcpi...@nospam.please> wrote:
>I've been thinkin'... a scary thought!
>Rick, I'm sure you'll find your valley or canyon definitions.
>
>I tend to think that ravine and gulch are pretty close. In the desert,
>lots of drainages are labeled "gulch". I visualize (in the desert) a gulch
>as being a dry creekbed most of the year, flowing towards a (dry?) river in
>a valley. I see very steep if not vertical (usually dirt, not rock) walls
>on the sides of the gulch. I tend to think they've been formed by
>flash-floods. The ones I visualize might be fairly wide near the valley
>bottom (maybe up to 15 -> 20 meters wide), but many I've seen are a meter
>or two deep and sometimes only 2 -> 3 meters wide.
This is basically an issue here of human language.
What has meaning is the angle of repose for loose material.
Certainly slot canyons have special meaning to some.
So many cultures, say desert based, have so many words for basicallyy
the same thing, and additionally, some make distinctions which other's
don't make. The question here tends to be process (erosion)
and whether the occurence or absence of water makes a difference.
>There's usually some
>kind of thicker vegetation near the gulch due to the higher potential for
>water. Most of the time you can find critters, snakes and lizards living
>in and near the gulches (it's also cooler in there so, in hot weather, find
>a North facing slope under a nice tree to cool off in the shade).
Basically biology is largely irrelevant to geomorphology.
Botany tends to obscure geology.
Northern heisphere bias.
Eugene Miya
>> > >> For example: What is the difference between a valley, a canyon, a
>> > >> ravine and gulch?
In article <tgn6r4r...@corp.supernews.com>,
Ed Kuivanen <edkui...@chartermi.net> wrote:
Snipped old stuff.
>In the for what its worth department:
>
>I suspect the terms vary regionally, in my lexicon, a valley, a canyon, a
>ravine, a gulch, & gullies are all members of the set - valley.
Well a valley differs with the width of the base: flat.
You have the basics down knowing u-shape.
>Couloirs are not in my lexicon.
They enter in climbing, places where the French travel (remember
the former international language of diplomacy), and other realms.
Reading Annapurna, you will encounter it. It's a term alpinists need
familiarity.
>Anyway, in the specific, valleys, to me, are created
>by meandering rivers with wide enough bottoms to support habitation. A
>canyon is a large, or otherwise remarkable, valley, with sheer walls. A
>ravine is a steeply cut river course, with a "v" shaped cross section and
>smaller in the subset of valleys. Gulch, is a term I have never used to
>describe anything meaningful. A gully, a term I haven't used since
>childhood, seems to be a watercourse, small, a shallow "u"-shape in cross
>section, which at one time supported a stream capable of erosion, but which
>now seems to have changed course, dried up, or otherwise become intermittent
>in flow. It would mostly likely be found in association with a meandering
>water course.
>
>I'd be interested in hearing others perceptions of these terms.
Best place is sci.geo.geology.
A good example left out is a hanging valley.
Valleys are largely not created by rivers. That accounts for the v-shape.
There's glacial valleys (Yosemite), valleys created by a horst/graben
topography (basin and range by mcphee), etc.
More important for climbing is understanding how to utilize
geomorphology for ascent routes.
Remember these are largely just words for mostly the same thing.
Kurt Knisely
> pcpinhead wrote:
...
> >There's usually some
> >kind of thicker vegetation near the gulch due to the higher potential for
> >water. Most of the time you can find critters, snakes and lizards living
> >in and near the gulches (it's also cooler in there so, in hot weather, find
> >a North facing slope under a nice tree to cool off in the shade).
>
> Basically biology is largely irrelevant to geomorphology.
> Botany tends to obscure geology.
Yes, but at night when wondering around in the desert, alot of times you
can't see these 3 meter drop offs (or the rattlesnakes). A number of
times, friends have disappeared for a few minutes until they can find a
place to scamper up the walls of a gulch. The vegetation can provide clues
(in this case).
> Northern heisphere bias.
So how do you describe the "shady side" of a gulch? "Get on the side
closest to the equator?" "There will be more shade on the side of the
ravine opposite your closest pole?" I guess animals ARE smart enough to
get the hell out of the sun and find a shady slope in hot weather w/o some
detailed explanation.
(Still ski season)
-K
--
kurt uses xmission