Apple cores & banana peels compost or garbage
GeoBear
turn black within 48 hours in warm weather, and you could put some leaf
litter on top of it
to conceal it until that happens (burying it would probably cause a
greater impact)." There is no leaf litter at 10000 feet, for example.
For me, the overall issue is one of "not leaving stuff lying around". And
depending on the ecosystem, stuff stays around for a long time. And
btw...many of us *do* pack out human waste (not urine), again...depending
on the ecosystem. Again, if we packed in an orange or a banana, surely we
can manage to pack out the peels.
Alan Dove
That was me. At 10,000 feet, you're right, but the post I was responding
to didn't specify a particular place/weather condition. It clearly
depends on common sense and varies from one situation to another, which
is why I said that a banana peel turns black "in warm weather." If I'm
in a Northeastern forest ecosystem in the spring/summer/early autumn, I
will continue to throw my fruit by the wayside. In a desert, tundra, ice
cap, or mountain peak environment, different rules clearly apply.
--Alan
Fortier Philip Patrick Mr
>on the ecosystem. Again, if we packed in an orange or a banana, surely we
>can manage to pack out the peels.
>
But it seems a shame to pack out a banana peel which might end up in
a plastic bag in some landfill, and stay there for thousands of
years, when you could just toss it well away from the trail, where it
would (relatively) quickly decay, or be eaten by animals, and "return
to Earth". Granted, you
wouldn't want to do this is places like the tundra, or in a talus
field....
--
Phil Fortier--...@ee.mcgill.ca-----------------/\ ^
WWW: http://www.ee.mcgill:80/~philfort/ / \/\_/ \
"Those mountains seem higher than they appear." / \_
--------------------------------------------------/ \
Gregory William Munson
> turn black within 48 hours in warm weather, and you could put some leaf
> litter on top of it
Is it banana leaf "litter"?
Greg Munson
gwmu...@midway.uchicago.edu
Mark Kempf
break down rapidly. I read on this thread where a fellow hiker
came across and apple tree in the woods, ate some, and threw
away the remains. Natural ecosystem you say---I disagree. It could
have grown from a discarded apple core, and I venture to say, the
environment of that area was better off for it.
Purist, in IMHA, go to extremes. Packing out human waste??? Indeed.
Before you know it, they will be advocating tying bush sticks to
their fanny packs to wipe out their foot prints.
In article <Pine.SUN.3.91.95062...@merhaba.cc.columbia.edu> Alan Dove <ad...@columbia.edu> writes:
>On 21 Jun 1995, GeoBear wrote:
>
>> Someone said, "I'll agree with this part. However, a banana peel will
>> turn black within 48 hours in warm weather, and you could put some leaf
>> litter on top of it
>> to conceal it until that happens (burying it would probably cause a
>> greater impact)." There is no leaf litter at 10000 feet, for example.
>> For me, the overall issue is one of "not leaving stuff lying around". And
>> depending on the ecosystem, stuff stays around for a long time. And
>> btw...many of us *do* pack out human waste (not urine), again...depending
>> on the ecosystem. Again, if we packed in an orange or a banana, surely we
>> can manage to pack out the peels.
>
>That was me. At 10,000 feet, you're right, but the post I was responding
>to didn't specify a particular place/weather condition. It clearly
>depends on common sense and varies from one situation to another, which
>is why I said that a banana peel turns black "in warm weather." If I'm
>in a Northeastern forest ecosystem in the spring/summer/early autumn, I
>will continue to throw my fruit by the wayside. In a desert, tundra, ice
>cap, or mountain peak environment, different rules clearly apply.
>
> --Alan
>
>.
>.
GeoBear
Indeed. Before you know it, they will be advocating tying bush sticks to
their fanny packs to wipe out their foot prints."
It sounds like you've never backpacked in the desert. If people left
behind their scat in this ecosystem it would be literally intolerable.
mark t. fuller
all the way so why can't you carry it all the way out. It's lighter right?
Bananas are not indiginous to the environment at 10000 feet or at in the
canyons. You shouldn't leave any trash behind. be it human or food. A friend
of mine is part of the science team for Carlsbad Caverns and they even pack out
their urine. Be nice to the environment and it will be nice to you. If you
want an efficient way of carrying out your fecal matter, I suggest you get a
plastic mayo jar and when you do have to shit, do it a small paper bag then put
it in the jar. It's better than leaving it for someone else to step in.
BTW with the exception of urine, we carry out ALL of our waste when we raft
through the Grand Canyon. we even carry out our ashes from our fire pan. which
brings up another point, DON'T I repeat DON'T burn your toilet paper, last year
some backpacker burned his TP at Deer Creek Falls In the GC and set the
surrounding brush on fire burning some 17 acres of land before the park service
put it out.
M
Mark Wells
I'm not into "packing shit" like you. Besides, shit is indiginous to every
region on this planet, trust me on this one.
Ever hear of a cat hole?
But hey, I won't stand in your way, you packing fool. :->
--
Mark Wells.
maw...@unity.ncsu.edu
+---------------------------------------------+
|/\ * * /\ * |
| .\ * / /\ |
| ^\/\ /\ /\ * / / \/\ * |
| . \.\/\ / ^\ /. \ / \ . \ \ |
| /\. \/. \ /. .\ /\/ . \/ . \ \ \ /\ |
|/. \ /. .\/ ^ \/. \ / . \ . '/ ,\ |
| . / . . \ . / ^.\/\/ |
|This "mountain man" drinks Corona, not Busch!|
+---------------------------------------------+
Mark Kempf
around the Hueco Tanks region east of El Paso searching for Indian
ruins. I am not a novice, and am very concerned about my impact on
the native environment.---Mark
>.
Mark Kempf
>But are you into stepping into it and smelling it every time you get on a trail?
>I just ask that you put it in a Baggy and carry it out. Especially if you are
>in the desert. There is not enough moisture in arrid regions to aid
>decomposition of waste. Whether it be shit or bananas.
>
>M
>.
>.
mark t. fuller
Mark Wells
They like the shit (pun ack. :))
how's about diggin' a cat hole? can't step in what's buried.
btw-- only questions, as i've never backpacked in the desert.
Mark Kempf
In article <24JUN95.16...@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> Mark Kempf <MKE...@MUSIC.CC.UGA.EDU> writes:
>In article <0038A...@nile.com> mark_t....@nile.com (mark t. fuller) writes:
>>.
>
>.
>.
Eugene N. Miya
>Is it banana leaf "litter"?
Where is it landing?
mark t. fuller
bio-degrade waste of any kind. If you dig a cat hole and come back next year
to the same spot, the waste you left behind will still be there.
I have done extensive hikes in the canyonlands area of Moab and have seen the
waste left behind by other hikers and yes I have picked it up and carried it
out. I carry a small garbage bag with me to carry out other peoples waste 'cus
they're too lazy to do it.
Do I sound pissed? Well, I am because these are national parks and land and we
as a nation are not taking care of them!
M
GeoBear
habituated... so what? Why is that bad? If all the humans go away they'll
starve?"
Here's why it's bad:
1) they end up unnaturally bold (not to be confused with tame) and worse,
lose their wildness and dignity.
2) many animals dehydrate from what they get from humans; eg, marmots, who
then lose fur patches and die of exposure
3) "feeding stations" (campsites, trailheads, etc.) unnaturally focus
populations. In areas such as Big Basin State Park in CA, the human-caused
explosion of the corvid population is contributing to the demise of the
critically endangered marbled murrelet, as corvids (jays, crows, ravens)
prey on their nests.
4) unnaturally clustered populations or over-population increases disease
danger for those critters, as it does for any life form
5) habituated animals can pose a threat to visiting humans. For ex, the
greatest number of injury/deaths of humans from wildlife throughout the
entire National Park Service is due to deer. People think the "big brown
eyes" are "tame" and don't seem to notice their razor sharp hooves &
antlers. Habituated deer are very aggressive. (I said elsewhere I'd much
rather walk past bears than through a herd of deer...much safer!)
6) In frontcounty, habituated animals are drawn into traffic areas for
food from humans; therefore increasing mortality rate unnaturally
7) native species do not exist for our "entertainment". If you want to
see animals perform for food, well..........I can't even think of an
acceptable outlet for that.
8) Habituated animals will likely starve after humans after left for "the
season"; if those animals have stopped foraging
------------------
aka Native Species for Habitat, Sunnyvale, CA
GeoBear
them; I was reminded of this reason just this past week by a wildlife
biologist: Feeding
processed/junk food to animals puts preservatives in their systems which
can kill
the natural intestinal flora. The natural flora, now gone, prevents the
animal from
digesting their natural food. The end result is eventually is a starving
and dead
animal.
Edward Hartnett
G> Someone asked, "Yes, but why exactly is it bad for the animals. They get
G> habituated... so what? Why is that bad? If all the humans go away they'll
G> starve?"
That was me.
G> Here's why it's bad:
G> 1) they end up unnaturally bold (not to be confused with tame) and worse,
G> lose their wildness and dignity.
I don't understand this. We're not talking about feeding animals by
hand, on purpose! We're talking about an apple core in the woods. If
the animals eat it after I'm gone, how do they get more bold?
G> 2) many animals dehydrate from what they get from humans; eg, marmots, who
G> then lose fur patches and die of exposure
Huh? I don't understand. I find it hard to believe that an apple core
could have this effect.
G> 3) "feeding stations" (campsites, trailheads, etc.) unnaturally focus
G> populations. In areas such as Big Basin State Park in CA, the human-caused
G> explosion of the corvid population is contributing to the demise of the
G> critically endangered marbled murrelet, as corvids (jays, crows, ravens)
G> prey on their nests.
We've already discussed the fact that it shouldn't be done at
campsites or trailheads.
G> 4) unnaturally clustered populations or over-population increases disease
G> danger for those critters, as it does for any life form
See above.
G> 5) habituated animals can pose a threat to visiting humans. For ex, the
G> greatest number of injury/deaths of humans from wildlife throughout the
G> entire National Park Service is due to deer. People think the "big brown
G> eyes" are "tame" and don't seem to notice their razor sharp hooves &
G> antlers. Habituated deer are very aggressive. (I said elsewhere I'd much
G> rather walk past bears than through a herd of deer...much safer!)
Actually I walk through herds of deer at NASA/GSFC all the time. I've
never heard of any accidents.
But how does eating my apple core habituate the animal to me more than
me hiking by habituates it to me?
G> 6) In frontcounty, habituated animals are drawn into traffic areas for
G> food from humans; therefore increasing mortality rate unnaturally
G> 7) native species do not exist for our "entertainment". If you want to
G> see animals perform for food, well..........I can't even think of an
G> acceptable outlet for that.
Oh, of course, I'm talking about burying an apple core in the woods
and you translate that to me tormenting animals for
entertainment. Does that make sense?
G> 8) Habituated animals will likely starve after humans after left for "the
G> season"; if those animals have stopped foraging
I find this hard to believe. You mean a deer is going to forget how to forage?
--
Joseph Scott Stuart
In article <3stbo2$r...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> geo...@aol.com (GeoBear) writes:
[ Written by someone else, attributions lost ]
"Oh, of course, I'm talking about burying an apple core in the woods
and you translate that to me tormenting animals for
entertainment. Does that make sense?...etc., etc."
I wasn't talking about *you* the poster, and after I posted my response
realized I should have said, "if one wants to...etc.". Meanwhile, you are
not the only person using the backcountry, so the concept is of the
collective effect. The issue of "stopping foraging" has to do with their
getting used to "convenience" **and** that the preservatives in (many)
human foods inhibit their ability to digest (check with a biologist about
this one). Lastly, re: your comment about deer and not hearing of any
danger...check with NPS for their national stats on injury/death caused by
wildlife. Ungulates in general and deer in particular make up the
greatest percentage. I get lots & lots of first hand info from wildlife
biologists and do my best to share it with others. I repeat my original
comment...if we were strong enough and able enough to pack in the original
orange and/or banana, surely we can pack out the peels. That's the ethic
of leave-no-trace backcountry use.
I like to think that I practice "leave-no-trace" backcountry use. In
fact, on every trip I've carried out more garbage than I carried in.
I also always carry out (or eat) any fruit peels/cores. However, if
you can answer the original question, rather than making up a new
question and answering that, I'd be interested in hearing it.
The original question was something along the lines of:
"What is the harm in leaving a small amount of biodegradable, organic
matter (such as an apple core) in a healthy forest (we're not talking
desert or alpine tundra here), in an out of the way location where it
is very unlikely that anyone will see it before it completely decays?"
The human is going to be gone before any animal gets to it and eats
it, so the animal won't be in close proximity to people to become
habituated. Apple cores generally are not loaded with preservatives,
at least, organically grown ones are not. No other person is going
to see it and be offended.
Even though I can't think of any real harm, I would still pack it out.
Give me something to tell potential hiking partners who feel
differently.
scott
GeoBear
GeoBear
everything to do with not being able to keep track of the who-said-what
threads, and *not* my making up a new question. So your question is,
"What is the harm in leaving a small amount of biodegradable, organic
matter (such as an apple core) in a healthy forest (we're not talking
desert or alpine tundra here), in an out of the way location where it is
very unlikely that anyone will see it before it completely decays?"
A very good question, and I can still only give you *my* answer:
Biologically there (probably) is no harm (we didn't even get to the issue
of non-native seeds sprouting in a native ecosystem...let's leave that
aside for now). But ethically, in my view, there is a harm if we leave
peels, etc., behind. There's no point in arguing ethics (which I don't
think you're trying to do with me, just to clarify) and I like to think
that newcomers will also simply understand the ethics, without taking it
to the level of (again, not saying you do this but some might)...."unless
you exhibit absolute critical thinking in your posts backed up by hard
scientific data, it's not useful". That's just plain scat. The ethics of
all of this are as important as the biological data. So.....tell
newcomers that in order to keep in practice and/or to maintain the
"spirit" and the "ethics" of LeaveNoTrace, that we practice it all the
time even when technically & scientifically it (perhaps) makes no
difference.
(I'm not ignoring you...I'll be unplugged for the most part between June
30 and mid September). I'll close with humor to lighten this up...
"Society is like a stew...if you
don't keep it stirred up, you get
a lot of scum on top"
(Edward Abbey)
Gerald Hayes
the same on any other property is garbage.
(Public property is *other* property)
mark t. fuller
the same on any other property is garbage.
(Public property is *other* property)<<
Uh.....
Bite me!?
The last thing I want to see when I'm out in the wilderness is someone elses
garbage. Besides, compost is a contained pile of bio-degradables, which are in
turn used for the purpose of fertilization of bedding plants.
Get with the program, Ace.
M