ultralight sleeping bags: which is the best?
Stephen Younge
in the Colorado Rockies and Cascades, plus winter adventures in the desert
and canyons. I'm generally looking in the 30F range since I already have a
0F Western Mountaineering bag. I'd mostly be using it with a bivvy sack but
some tent action as well.
Does anybody have experience with any of the bags below? I've checked out
the UL Down Hugger #3 and it seems to be of decent quality, but the fact
that the price and weight are lower than almost all the others (with a full
zip, no less) worries me a little.
I'm generally a fan of more marquee bag makers like Western Mountaineering
or Feathered Friends, but neither seem to have anything really solid in this
category.
Any feedback or suggestions would be appreciated.
Montbell UL Down Hugger #3
$230
30F
1 lb 5 oz
725-fill down
full zipper
Marmot Hydrogen
$329
30F
1 lb 8 oz
900-fill down
half-zipper
Feathered Friends Merlin
30F
$300 + $14 (for down upgrade)
800-fill down
half zipper
1 lb 8 oz
may be narrow (58/52/38)
TNF Beeline 900
30F
1 lb 3 oz
900-fill down
no zipper -- this worries me; could make temp control quite difficult!
GOLITE Feather Bag
20F
800 fill
quarter (60cm) zipper
1 lb 13 oz
$299
GOLITE Feather-Lite Bag
40F
1 lb 2 oz
$249
Also... Is there any real difference between 750+ fill and 900 fill? The
Feathered Friends web site claims that '800+ fill' is the best currently
available, while TNF and others claim to use 900 fill. Western
Mountaineering claims that the fill power ratings are essentially worthless
because they are done under unrealistic conditions.
Robertwgross
>I've been looking into lightweight sleeping bags for summer hikes and climbs
>in the Colorado Rockies and Cascades, plus winter adventures in the desert
I can't comment on these new models. However, I saw Feathered Friends on your
list. I purchased one of their Swallow model bags back in 1982, approximately,
and it still performs perfectly. I'm not sure whether that is a testimonial to
the brand, or to the model, or to the fact that I have kept it clean and stored
properly between trips. If I needed another bag like that today, I would return
to that brand.
---Bob Gross---
Ed Huesers
> I've been looking into lightweight sleeping bags for summer hikes and climbs
> in the Colorado Rockies and Cascades, plus winter adventures in the desert
> and canyons. I'm generally looking in the 30F range since I already have a
> 0F Western Mountaineering bag.
I've been using a Big Agnes bag for the last four or five years and I
am happy with it. I have the Lost Ranger bag [+15] but they do have the
Horse Thief +35 degree bag: http://www.bigagnes.com/str-bags-ht.shtml
The price is right.
Ed Huesers
http://www.grandshelters.com
Russ Kozerski
Wisp, the Western Mountaineering Megalite and the Marmot Hydrogen. I
actually bought all three and spent the weekend trying them out on my
livingroom floor. Out of those three, I couldn't tell any difference in
terms of feel, comfort, size or design. So in the end I got the one that
weighed the least and packed the smallest, which was the Wisp. (Truth be
told, I probably would have been just as happy with any of the three.) The
Wisp has served me well, though I'd be happy to carry a couple more ounces
for a full-length zipper. In fact, I was pleased enough with it that I
bought the Mountainsmith Cipher (0-degree) sight unseen. By shopping around,
I was able to get them both on sale (at different times and from different
stores) and saved nearly $200 combined on the list prices.
"Stephen Younge" <stephen.no...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:lngUc.170974$eM2.16651@attbi_s51...
mark
"Stephen Younge" wrote ...
> Also... Is there any real difference between 750+ fill and 900 fill? The
> Feathered Friends web site claims that '800+ fill' is the best currently
> available, while TNF and others claim to use 900 fill. Western
> Mountaineering claims that the fill power ratings are essentially
worthless
> because they are done under unrealistic conditions.
>
>
I was told a long time ago at a retail clinic that there is no agreed upon
standard method of measuring fill power, and that each company does its own
measurements. If this is still true, then fill power is at best a crude way
of comparing the relative qualities of different model sleeping bags from
the same maker. I have noticed a tendency for the numbers to creep upward
over the years, which makes me wonder if there is a certain amount of hype
involved, since geese haven't changed a whole lot in the same time frame.
FWIW, I've been using a Marmot 15deg down bag since 1990, very well made
bag, very comfortable, the down has held its loft very well. I use it for
summer mountain travel here in Colorado. It has a full length double zipper,
which is very nice for getting dressed on cold mornings (open the lower
zipper, slide pants on, then get out of sleeping bag). The full length
zipper is also good for temperature control on warm nights.
HTH,
--
mark
the Moderator
> Stephen Younge wrote:
> > I've been looking into lightweight sleeping bags for summer hikes and
climbs
> > in the Colorado Rockies and Cascades, plus winter adventures in the
desert
> > and canyons. I'm generally looking in the 30F range since I already have
a
> > 0F Western Mountaineering bag.
>
Are you considering one of the Western Mountaineering light weight bags? I
have a WM bag and plan to buy another if this one ever wears out.
Nate B
"Stephen Younge"
> Marmot Hydrogen
Just sold one on e-bay. Too tight a fit for me. Like a fly in a jar. If
the zipper only went down another 2 inches, it would have been tolerable.
Otherwise, a nice bag.
> Feathered Friends Merlin
Tried one. These bags are very conservative for their temp ratings, so
expect it to weigh and stuff comparable to a 20 or 15 degree bag. I like FF
clothing, but I think they are behind the times for bag design. These bags
are very primative compared to what's out there now.
Maybe add Mountain Hardare to your list. The SO just bought a 15 degree
Phantom, and I got the 32 degree version. It's much lighter than anything
I've ever owned, and would likely be warm enough for what you have on your
list. It's also a much more comfortable fit for me.
> Also... Is there any real difference between 750+ fill and 900 fill?
These ratings are basically bullshit. Consider that when I bought my
Hydrogen, it was sold as "775" fill - next best on the market was 700 fill.
Everone out there was saying 775 wasn't possible. 650 fill was the
standard. SOUND FAMILIAR? I'll bet the geese have been evolving - fast!
Yeah, right!
I would consider anything from 700 to 900 to be equivelent. From there, if
a bag is lighter, stuffs smaller - it's probably colder. Go figure. The
temp rating is only an indicator. There's also a little going on with how
tight the bag fits you - snugger is warmer, ligher, but more like a fly in a
jar.
> Western Mountaineering claims that the fill power
> ratings are essentially worthless because they are
> done under unrealistic conditions.
Yeah - but there are industry standards they follow - at least they say they
do.
- Nate
micweb
fill, 2 ounces overfill and it is great.
Like you said, the smaller manufacturers like Western and Feathered
Friends are really neat. I had to wait, but essentially I got a
semi-custom bag.
Western makes the excellent Caribou MF. It's now microfiber so its
quite water resistant.
I went with FF Rock Wren simply because it is multifunctional ... it
is a sleepig bag you can wear around camp (arm holes and leg hole).
Also it is roomy, the Caribou is lighter but very snug.
I think the reasons Western and FF haven't jumped on the 900 fill
bandwagon are three fold: first, they both say they buy the best
available down...but rumor has it that the down sellers want a premium
for fill that is "certified" 900 (in other words, in the supply chain
900 is almost like a brand); second, they don't want unhappy customers
who expect more loft than they get; third, 900 fill isn't really 900
fill, its somewhere between 800 and 900.
Personally, if you buy the best of any of the majors - Western
Mountaineering, Feathered Friends, Marmot, North Face etc. - you
probably won't go wrong. Just view the 900 as a code word for
"premium."
Have you checked out the www.nuntakusa.com website for their
interesting line?
Robertwgross
what was going on 25 years ago.
Many down products sold in the USA were manufactured in the USA, and the goose
down had to be imported from some country where they grew geese for the meat
market. That was Poland. Goose down prices were high, but stable.
Then all of a sudden China came onto the down market with its Chinese goose
down, and it sold into the USA. Down prices decreased. Then, I think, Polish
down came back to change the market again.
Finally, Chinese manufacturing came up to the high standards demanded, so then
finished down product prices decreased. Prices have increased over the years,
but fundamentally the cheaper down products are sewn in the Far East.
So, is the price of down down, or is the price of down up now?
---Bob Gross---
Bill Tuthill
>
> Montbell UL Down Hugger #3
> $230
> full zipper
>
> Marmot Hydrogen
> $329
> half-zipper
>
> Feathered Friends Merlin
> $300 + $14 (for down upgrade)
> half zipper
>
> TNF Beeline 900
> 1 lb 3 oz
> no zipper -- this worries me; could make temp control quite difficult!
>
> GOLITE Feather Bag
> 1 lb 13 oz
>
> GOLITE Feather-Lite Bag
> $249
> 1 lb 2 oz
Some comments about the above: Down fill and temperature ratings
are useless for comparison because some manufacturers lie, so I've
deleted them. Instead you should compare loft.
Did you check whether all bags have baffle construction?
I would not waste money on a sewn-thru bag, because a summer down bag
is plenty cool enough for use on warm nights. Synthetics are not.
I would strongly advise against no-zipper or half-zipper, because if
you want to use the bag as a blanket on a warm night, especially to
share it with a friend, you won't be able. Do GOLITEs have zippers?
Why aren't you considering the following? The Ultralite, which I own,
is warmer but slightly heavier than the Megalite.
Western Mountaineering Megalite
$280
1 lb 8 oz
full zipper
Western Mountaineering Ultralite
$290
1 lb 11 oz
full zipper
Kalin KOZHUHAROV
> I've been looking into lightweight sleeping bags for summer hikes and climbs
> in the Colorado Rockies and Cascades, plus winter adventures in the desert
> and canyons. I'm generally looking in the 30F range since I already have a
> 0F Western Mountaineering bag. I'd mostly be using it with a bivvy sack but
> some tent action as well.
>
> Does anybody have experience with any of the bags below? I've checked out
> the UL Down Hugger #3 and it seems to be of decent quality, but the fact
> that the price and weight are lower than almost all the others (with a full
> zip, no less) worries me a little.
I still use the normal (not UL) version for parking lot camping or one-night in the mountains.
Don't wear a fleece inside or you'll be all in feathers after that :-)
Baffel construction is far from optimal, down is not very good.
> I'm generally a fan of more marquee bag makers like Western Mountaineering
> or Feathered Friends, but neither seem to have anything really solid in this
> category.
>
> Any feedback or suggestions would be appreciated.
>
> Montbell UL Down Hugger #3
> $230
> 30F
> 1 lb 5 oz
> 725-fill down
> full zipper
Forget about that as a quality bag... I've seen/used (had to use) a lot of MontBell gear here in Japan.
> Marmot Hydrogen
> $329
> 30F
> 1 lb 8 oz
> 900-fill down
> half-zipper
>
> Feathered Friends Merlin
> 30F
> $300 + $14 (for down upgrade)
> 800-fill down
> half zipper
> 1 lb 8 oz
> may be narrow (58/52/38)
>
> TNF Beeline 900
> 30F
> 1 lb 3 oz
> 900-fill down
> no zipper -- this worries me; could make temp control quite difficult!
Yes, it definately will!
> GOLITE Feather Bag
> 20F
> 800 fill
> quarter (60cm) zipper
> 1 lb 13 oz
> $299
>
> GOLITE Feather-Lite Bag
> 40F
> 1 lb 2 oz
> $249
Add here Western Mountaineering UltraLight. Worth the money if you have them.
> Also... Is there any real difference between 750+ fill and 900 fill? The
> Feathered Friends web site claims that '800+ fill' is the best currently
> available, while TNF and others claim to use 900 fill. Western
> Mountaineering claims that the fill power ratings are essentially worthless
> because they are done under unrealistic conditions.
There is difference, but you should not compare it between manifactureres.
Kalin.
--
|| ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ||
( ) http://ThinRope.net/ ( )
|| ______________________ ||
doc
doc
MB
> Some comments about the above: Down fill and temperature ratings
> are useless for comparison because some manufacturers lie, so I've
> deleted them. Instead you should compare loft.
In principle, "fill power", or specific volume of the down used, is
a relevant measure of the down quality. Dunno about the lack of
commonly recognized standards, even less so about outright lying.
Nevertheless, there should be a significant difference between,
say, something sold as 800+ or 550+ cubic inches /ounce.
In Europe, down quality is often given by the down/feather ratio.
Eg 97/3 is pretty good, typically corresponding to about 800+ fill
power, iirc. In principle, the down/feather ratio isn't a good
measure of the down quality, as one has to assume that the down
quality distribution is given by this single parameter.
While loft is a useful measure, perhaps the best one, the
insulativity of the fill depends on the down pressure too. Eg,
some "overfilling" can make the bag warmer, although, depending
on the actual desgin, it may affect the pressure rather than
the thickness (loft) of the insulation. Moreover, advanced bags
are often designed to have uneven loft, being eg thicker at top and
thinner at bottom, with Stephenson at the extreme with no fill
in the bottom at all (highly compressed down doesn't insulate
well anyway).
The simplest way for comparing bag warmth is the net weight
of the insulation. The specific volume should however be used
for normalizing to make different fill powers comparable. Of course,
bag sizing and design affect the warmth vs fill weight greatly, so
this only works well for bags of similar designs and dimensions.
Bag design is of course essential for warmth, but a lot of it is
in the details, and there're no simple ways to make comparisions.
Baffle design, zipper insulation, collars, drawstrings, shell
materials etc.
Afaik, there still aren't any commonly recognized standards for
determining the 'tempereature rating' of a bag. Consequently,
the rating criteria of different manufacturers vary, and ratings
of bags from different manufacturers generally aren't comparable.
Ratings of the same manufacturer for bags of the same model year
should - hopefully - be comparable though.
Simon
I have the Marmot Hydrogen, although mine is 2 years old ('02 model, I
presume) w/800 fill and a 1 lb 11 oz weight on my scale. Since it's a 30
deg. bag, lack of a full-zip (which was a concern) turns out to be not
that big of a deal. True, I can't use it as a blanket, and it is like
putting on a big sock at night, but using the half-zip is fine enough
for adjusting temperature. (I would be wary of no-zip bags, both for
temp. control and entering/exiting, unless your skinny and flexible and
never have to pee at night.) I also like the girth and roominess (I have
the long model which provides 64" girth for my 6' 210 lb. frame)
compared to similar bags, which (theoretically) makes the bag a tiny bit
cooler on warm nights and allows for layering clothes in cooler
climates.
Because of the seasons and the trips in the last few years, the coldest
I've used it was about the mid 50s, and I was comfortably warm in my
underwear. The warmest was about 70 degrees, and I just flipped the top
down until it cooled off enough to zip up.
BTW, I also considered (back in 2002) the Big Agnes Horse Thief (35/775)
and Cross Mountain 40/3D), TNF Flight (35/Delta), Integral Designs
Andromeda (40/PrimaLoft), Feathered Friends Sandpiper (no hood)
(30/750), and Kelty LightYear (45/650).
Might be some sales coming soo (Labor Day) if you can hold out that
long.
HTH,
Simon
Russ Kozerski
bags. They weigh an ounce or two over 2 pounds. Full zipper in addition to a
foot zipper. They appear to be well constructed. We got them from Campmor
for $139. For the price and weight, I don't think they can be beat.
Legrande Harris
to a sheet underneath. The sheet underneath has pockets to fit
thermarests.
The advantage to this system is that it only requires one sleeping bag
for two people and I am not confined like in a regular bag. The
downside is that if it is real cold, the edges of the bag are cold, but
I have used it with a partner down to around 15 degrees F without a
problem.
LG
DaveG
"Stephen Younge" <stephen.no...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:lngUc.170974$eM2.16651@attbi_s51...
<Snip>
I have no experience with any of those manufacturers- but all I can say is I
will never go with a half zipper again. I am 6,2- and getting in and out of
a half zippered bag in a small backpacking tent was a huge pain in the ass.
Good luck on your search-
DaveG
Denver, CO
Bill Tuthill
>
> In Europe, down quality is often given by the down/feather ratio.
> Eg 97/3 is pretty good, typically corresponding to about 800+ fill
> power, iirc. In principle, the down/feather ratio isn't a good
> measure of the down quality, as one has to assume that the down
> quality distribution is given by this single parameter.
Interesting...
Buying a sleeping bag is somewhat like buying a car. You should
test drive it. Manufacturing variations occur. Down quality varies.
The best comparison is to spread the bag out at room temperature, wait
five minutes, then measure top/bottom/total loft yourself.
> While loft is a useful measure, perhaps the best one, the
> insulativity of the fill depends on the down pressure too. Eg,
> some "overfilling" can make the bag warmer, although, depending
> on the actual desgin, it may affect the pressure rather than
> the thickness (loft) of the insulation.
At colder temperatures, does down take longer to reach maximum loft?
> bags are often designed to have uneven loft, being eg thicker at top
> and thinner at bottom, with Stephenson at the extreme with no fill
> in the bottom at all (highly compressed down doesn't insulate).
Forgot to mention this one! Continuous baffles.
In a summer bag, I would always choose continuous baffle design.
This way, if it gets really cold, you can shake most of the down
into the top of the bag for maxumimum warmth, relying on your pad
(thermarest etc.) for warmth on the bottom.
When it's warm, you shake the down back into both top and bottom,
unzip, and use it as a blanket.
When shopping recently for my daughter, I was surprised by the number
of lightweight bags that lacked this critical feature. AFAIK all
Western Mountaineering Ultralight bags have it.
Thor Lancelot Simon
I'll second that. I spent two weeks camped at Wild Iris last year in a
Western 30-degree bag (don't recall the name. It's the ultralight one
with no hood and sewn pockets instead of baffles). It got down to 20F
or so at night, and I do usually sleep very cold -- I had to wear a hat,
socks, and gloves, and upgrade my crummy 3/4 length therm-a-rest with a
big spare piece of closed-cell foam for my feet, but it worked. I slept
all night, every night, and woke up with only a slight memory of being
damned cold falling asleep. Pretty good for a bag that packs down smaller
than a softball!
The bag is reasonably wide; I am 6'4" and on the coldest few nights I
managed to sleep fetal-position with my whole body and head inside the bag
and my face pointed up at the hole at the top of the bag, a trick I can't
do in some very narrow hoodless bags.
--
Thor Lancelot Simon t...@rek.tjls.com
But as he knew no bad language, he had called him all the names of common
objects that he could think of, and had screamed: "You lamp! You towel! You
plate!" and so on. --Sigmund Freud
Erasmus
the Moderator wrote:
Don't. Go to Indiana Camp Supply, now in Colorado.
jimbat
>
Виталий Котов
fantastic. Any other recommendations?"
If you're looking for a lightweight sleeping bag for summer hikes and climbs, the Feathered Friends Tanager is a great option. It's rated for 30F, so it will keep you warm in the Colorado Rockies and Cascades, and it's also light enough to take with you on winter adventures in the desert and canyons. Before buying - read more here https://wildproofgear.com/best-ultralight-sleeping-bag/