Darwin, Jesus and Moses... and Wilderness
George Cleveland
crucial encounter with wilderness柚oses, Jesus, and Mohammed in the
desert mountains, Siddhartha in the jungle? And why should the
predominant modern view of the origin and development of life have
arisen from the five-year wilderness voyage of a Victorian amateur
naturalist named Charles Darwin? There evidently is more to wilderness
than meets the eyeæ´‹ore than water, timber, minerals, the materials of
physical civilized existence.... Placing Darwin in the tradition of
Moses and Jesus may seem heresy from both the Judeo-Christian and
scientific viewpoints, but I think the roles played by the three
figures have been similar. They wrenched their respective cultures out
of a complacency that amounted to self-worship and thrust them in new
directions that (if not always entirely beneficial) enlarged the human
perspective. Moses forced his society to accept a unifying law; Jesus
forced his to accept the unity of all humanity; Darwin forced his to
accept the unity of all life. I doubt whether any of the three would
have been able to influence his society if he had not been fortified
by a season in the wilderness."
-David Rains Wallace (b. 1945), U.S. naturalist, essayist. "Tracks in
the Wilderness," The Klamath Knot, Sierra (1983).
hth
g.c.
Daniel-San
"George Cleveland" wrote ...
> "Why should all the major religions of the modern world include a
> desert mountains, Siddhartha in the jungle? And why should the
> predominant modern view of the origin and development of life have
> arisen from the five-year wilderness voyage of a Victorian amateur
> naturalist named Charles Darwin? There evidently is more to wilderness
> physical civilized existence.... Placing Darwin in the tradition of
> Moses and Jesus may seem heresy from both the Judeo-Christian and
> scientific viewpoints, but I think the roles played by the three
> figures have been similar. They wrenched their respective cultures out
> of a complacency that amounted to self-worship and thrust them in new
> directions that (if not always entirely beneficial) enlarged the human
> perspective. Moses forced his society to accept a unifying law; Jesus
> forced his to accept the unity of all humanity; Darwin forced his to
> accept the unity of all life. I doubt whether any of the three would
> have been able to influence his society if he had not been fortified
> by a season in the wilderness."
>
> -David Rains Wallace (b. 1945), U.S. naturalist, essayist. "Tracks in
> the Wilderness," The Klamath Knot, Sierra (1983).
>
>
> hth
>
> g.c.
Nice find, George.
Dan
pmhilton
George Cleveland wrote:
> "Why should all the major religions of the modern world include a
> crucial encounter with wilderness—Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed in the
> desert mountains, Siddhartha . . . .
Such experience is a unviersal component of human experience. Even so
"trivial" a tale as Bilbo Baggins' involves a descent into the depths in
order to find one's true nature. A descent into "the underworld" whether
into Mordor or the Celt's Land Beneath the Sea is as fundamental as
breathing.
Pete
--
The universe is largely unexplored.
NPR News item
Galen Hekhuis
>
>
>George Cleveland wrote:
>> "Why should all the major religions of the modern world include a
>> crucial encounter with wilderness柚oses, Jesus, and Mohammed in the
>> desert mountains, Siddhartha . . . .
>
>Such experience is a unviersal component of human experience. Even so
>"trivial" a tale as Bilbo Baggins' involves a descent into the depths in
>order to find one's true nature. A descent into "the underworld" whether
>into Mordor or the Celt's Land Beneath the Sea is as fundamental as
>breathing.
Please, please do not use caves as a way to seek enlightenment. Caves are
often full of poisonous bats, sump monsters or even foul air. Caves should
be avoided and reported to professional spelunkers (who hate to be called
"cavers"). You can tell a professional spelunker from an unpaid
recreational caver by the fact that a professional always carries a gun and
a gas mask, unlike sport cavers who often carry lights that are so
unreliable they carry as many as three.
Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA ghek...@earthlink.net
Alone we can just aspire to be dumb, but together we can be truly stupid
pmhilton
Galen Hekhuis wrote:
>
>
> Please, please do not use caves as a way to seek enlightenment.
Tell that to Orpheus. Or Isis. Or Ossian. (Cannot you recognize a cave
as a metaphor for one's inner self? They've been used thus for all of
recorded history . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .)
PH
Galen Hekhuis
>...
>The universe is largely unexplored.
> NPR News item
Your .signature reminds me of the time I was asked: "Just how many
undiscovered caves are there?"
There are cavers who actually present learned theories and papers every
year attempting to answer this question.
Which is worse, that the question would be asked or that someone would
answer?
Andrew F. Heil
> "Why should all the major religions of the modern world include a
> desert mountains, Siddhartha in the jungle?"
Why not?
Those religions all include extensive narratives, and at the time they
were written the world was sparsely populated, and there was no place
where the land was so thoroughly settled that one had to travel great
distances to find wilderness. Indeed, wilderness was all about, and
virtually all travel of any sort involved braving it. it would be
surprising if these naratives managed to conclude themselves without
setting some events in the wilderness.
pmhilton
Galen Hekhuis wrote:
>
> There are cavers who actually present learned theories and papers every
> year attempting to answer this question.
>
> Which is worse, that the question would be asked or that someone would
> answer?
>
Not being a caver, spelunker or other quasi-burrowing critter, (I'm more
of the canoe persuasion, myself) I can guess that you'd rather the
discoveries not be bruited about too loudly.
Pete
--
Gio Medici
They were all dealing with aliens and didn't want witnesses.
It was diabolical shifting the path to 'enlightenment' away from
within to the blood-sucking priests. And Darwin was a scumbag to
disguise the 'creationist' (alien) tampering with human DNA.
Gio
"Mind control is good, if you are pulling the strings. Be at peace,
laugh and be merry."
Eugene Miya
>> Please, please do not use caves as a way to seek enlightenment.
In article <439F7523...@mfx.net>, pmhilton <pmhi...@mfx.net>
the net.ent wrote:
>Tell that to Orpheus. Or Isis. Or Ossian. (Cannot you recognize a cave
>as a metaphor for one's inner self? They've been used thus for all of
>recorded history . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .)
Right.
Send in the killer rabbits.
--
Eugene Miya
George Cleveland <georgec...@nospam.msn.com> wrote:
>"Why should all the major religions of the modern world include a
>crucial encounter with wilderness柚oses, Jesus, and Mohammed in the
>desert mountains, Siddhartha in the jungle?
Population growth.
>And why should the
>predominant modern view of the origin and development of life have
>arisen from the five-year wilderness voyage of a Victorian amateur
>naturalist named Charles Darwin?
Human kind was ripe at that time for a last chance observation with the
then accumulated knowledge of biology (however crude) with a basis
which went all the way back to the Greeks.
>Placing Darwin in the tradition of
>Moses and Jesus may seem heresy from both the Judeo-Christian and
>scientific viewpoints, but I think the roles played by the three
>figures have been similar. They wrenched their respective cultures out
Doesn't seem like heresy to me.
>-David Rains Wallace (b. 1945), U.S. naturalist, essayist. "Tracks in
>the Wilderness," The Klamath Knot, Sierra (1983).
Well, there is a whole chapter on this in:
%A Roderick Nash
%T The Rights of Nature
%I U. Wisc. Press
%C Madison, WI
%D 1988
See the chapter on religion.
It's his 2nd best book.
--
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Eugene Miya
>> "Why should all the major religions of the modern world include a
>> desert mountains, Siddhartha . . . .
In article <439F6B00...@mfx.net>, pmhilton <pmhi...@mfx.net> wrote:
>Such experience is a unviersal component of human experience. Even so
>"trivial" a tale as Bilbo Baggins' involves a descent into the depths in
>order to find one's true nature. A descent into "the underworld" whether
>into Mordor or the Celt's Land Beneath the Sea is as fundamental as
>breathing.
...
> NPR News item
C.S. Lewis and Tolkien were just compared on NPR (publicity because or
the Chronicles).
I am not so certain that I would say universal. European maybe.
It helps to a degree to visit Oxford where both lived as faculty.
Hell, visit bloody England as they would say. England has no wilderness
in the wildest forms in the US or say Siberia. Oh it has windy snowy
mtns. but that's just a bias people have thinking this is a hiking group.
It has no place where you want to pause and consider whether you should
be carrying a rifle or shotgun (this is just an example, non-firearms examples
exist). It's infrastructure, technical artifical support like say a
submersible.
Bilbo is cute. The Hobbit was fun, but the Nazi threat from the 30s is gone.
"Think Casablanca without the Nazis." <who said that? ;^) >
And the Oxfordians had steam tunnels.
--
Eugene Miya
>>The universe is largely unexplored.
>> NPR News item
In article <nitup1h5ov2jr081i...@4ax.com>,
Galen Hekhuis <ghek...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Your .signature reminds me of the time I was asked:
>"Just how many undiscovered caves are there?"
As many is the coast of England is long.
>There are cavers who actually present learned theories and papers every
>year attempting to answer this question.
You mean geologists?
>Which is worse, that the question would be asked or that someone would
>answer?
What about the following questions from answers?
--
pmhilton
Eugene Miya wrote:
>
> C.S. Lewis and Tolkien were just compared on NPR (publicity because or
> the Chronicles).
Because they were both members of a small group who frequently read &
critiqued one another's writings as they progressed. They were fast
friends in addition to being members of 'The Inklings.'
Eugene Miya
>> the Chronicles).
The film, not the book.
>Because they were both members of a small group who frequently read &
>critiqued one another's writings as they progressed. They were fast
>friends in addition to being members of 'The Inklings.'
I would not say from the NPR boradcast that they were fast friends.
They implied that JRR started off Catholic and Lewis more agnostic.
The problem was the lack of reciprocal opinions to each others works.
NPR implied Lewis was more supportive to JRR after the Hobbit, but
JRR was less supportive and was less impressed with the development of
the Chronicles.
But there are other darker aspects of Oxford, as friends who live there
tell me. I am also more slightly oriented toward Cambridge.
--
Eugene Miya
In article <43A01F40...@mfx.net>, pmhilton <pmhi...@mfx.net> wrote:
>Not being a caver, spelunker or other quasi-burrowing critter, (I'm more
>of the canoe persuasion, myself) I can guess that you'd rather the
>discoveries not be bruited about too loudly.
Oh, you should view the early posts of the caving news groups and if you
can find them mailing lists.
Broadcast is not necessarily a friend of caving.
The problem is novices and less thans.
--
Eugene Miya
Gio Medici <giom...@sumware.com> wrote:
> George Cleveland <georgec...@nospam.msn.com> wrote:
>>"Why should all the major religions of the modern world include a
>>-David Rains Wallace (b. 1945), U.S. naturalist, essayist. "Tracks in
>>the Wilderness," The Klamath Knot, Sierra (1983).
>
>They were all dealing with aliens and didn't want witnesses.
Ever see the old series The Invaders? They placed little things on
bodies: their, humans, whatever, which vaporized them.
Evidence was at a premium. Now there are too many alien invader
programs to keep up and monitor their consistency.
>It was diabolical shifting the path to 'enlightenment' away from
>within to the blood-sucking priests.
Life of Brian?
>And Darwin was a scumbag to
>disguise the 'creationist' (alien) tampering with human DNA.
!
>"Mind control is good, if you are pulling the strings. Be at peace,
>laugh and be merry."
See Blake's 7?
"You didn't see anything...."
--
Galen Hekhuis
>Oh, you should view the early posts of the caving news groups and if you
>can find them mailing lists.
This really has little to do with the subject, I just felt a rant coming
on, and this seemed to be as good a place as I could come with.
It takes a pretty weird person to be a caver. Unlike other things, the
goal is never in sight. Your whole purpose is to find nothing. If you
find something, it is usually a wall or something marking the end of the
passage, possibly the "end" of the cave. Generally, you don't want to find
that. I'm talking about caving, not sightseeing underground. If you're
just sightseeing, you may well want to get to a particular formation or
room, so that you can claim to have "done" the cave.
Few, if any mountain climbers hope to find a second, more lofty peak when
they start up a mountain. But that is exactly what is often in the heart
of a cave explorer when they go into a "known" cave. Perhaps the crawlway
they squeeze into leads to even deeper and grander passages than previously
known. Most likely not. Mostly it is just muddy and chilly and wet and
dark. Cavers know this, but like I say, they're weird.
Another thing one notices before very long is the incredible change of
timespan. If you cut a few switchbacks, poop in the wrong place, even burn
down a whole forest on the surface, in a few hundred years probably no one
will know the difference. Not so in a cave. If even a fairly small
stalactite is broken, even if it manages to regrow, life as we know it will
never see it. Sure, there are places in caves in which all trace of your
passage will vanish in a matter of seconds, but there are also places where
your footprint (or whatever) will be around for thousands upon thousands of
years. Now consider all this in a sunless, timeless (for all practical
purposes, there are no cues) environment. If you weren't weird when you
started caving, juxtapositions like this will make you so in short order.
>Broadcast is not necessarily a friend of caving.
>The problem is novices and less thans.
I get other cavers pretty upset sometimes when I say: "Practice the
ultimate in cave conservation -- don't go."
George Cleveland
wrote:
>In article <43A07A00...@mfx.net>, pmhilton <pmhi...@mfx.net> wrote:
>>Eugene Miya wrote:
>>> C.S. Lewis and Tolkien were just compared on NPR (publicity because of
>>> the Chronicles).
> The film, not the book.
>>Because they were both members of a small group who frequently read &
>>critiqued one another's writings as they progressed. They were fast
>>friends in addition to being members of 'The Inklings.'
>
>I would not say from the NPR boradcast that they were fast friends.
>They implied that JRR started off Catholic and Lewis more agnostic.
>The problem was the lack of reciprocal opinions to each others works.
>NPR implied Lewis was more supportive to JRR after the Hobbit, but
>JRR was less supportive and was less impressed with the development of
>the Chronicles.
As am I. The first book in the Narnia Chronicles was good. The rest of
the books bogged down. A friend at work started reading the Narnia
books on the recommendation of a mutual friend. She got to the middle
of the second book and just couldn't go any further. I read all of
them in my youth but I don't think I'd ever read them again. OTH I
read Tolkien on an average of once every five years or so.
g.c.
Gio Medici
>It takes a pretty weird person to be a caver. Unlike other things, the
>goal is never in sight. Your whole purpose is to find nothing. If you
>find something, it is usually a wall or something marking the end of the
>passage, possibly the "end" of the cave. Generally, you don't want to find
>that. I'm talking about caving, not sightseeing underground. If you're
>just sightseeing, you may well want to get to a particular formation or
>room, so that you can claim to have "done" the cave.
>
>Few, if any mountain climbers hope to find a second, more lofty peak when
>they start up a mountain. But that is exactly what is often in the heart
>of a cave explorer when they go into a "known" cave. Perhaps the crawlway
>they squeeze into leads to even deeper and grander passages than previously
>known. Most likely not. Mostly it is just muddy and chilly and wet and
>dark. Cavers know this, but like I say, they're weird.
Do caves often expose veins or pockets of collectible or valuable
metals and minerals? Enougof it to justify mining operations?
Have you ever come upon unexplained man-made blockages deep
underground?
Gio
Gio Medici
>> George Cleveland wrote:
>>>"Why should all the major religions of the modern world include a
>>>crucial encounter with wilderness...
>>(Gio)
>>They were all dealing with aliens and didn't want witnesses.
>
>Ever see the old series The Invaders? They placed little things on
>bodies: their, humans, whatever, which vaporized them.
>Evidence was at a premium. Now there are too many alien invader
>programs to keep up and monitor their consistency.
>
Rumor has it that the series 'V' had real-life aspects to it, as does
the current series 'Stargate'.
>>It was diabolical shifting the path to 'enlightenment' away from
>>within to the blood-sucking priests.
>
>Life of Brian?
Brian (to adoring crowd): You've got to think for yourself! You
are all individuals!
Crowd (in unison): Yes, we are all individuals!
Brian (to adoring crowd): You are all different!
Crowd (in unison): Yes, we are all different!
Single voice (from within the crowd): I'm not.
Crowd (in unison):Shh!
>>And Darwin was a scumbag to
>>disguise the 'creationist' (alien) tampering with human DNA.
>
>!
Less-than-intelligent design is a lot more likely than evolution or
intelligent design.
Gio
Eugene Miya
Actually I think it had every thing to do with...but I read on.
>I just felt a rant coming
>on, and this seemed to be as good a place as I could come with.
Rant away.
>It takes a pretty weird person to be a caver. Unlike other things, the
>goal is never in sight. Your whole purpose is to find nothing. If you
>find something, it is usually a wall or something marking the end of the
>passage, possibly the "end" of the cave. Generally, you don't want to find
>that. I'm talking about caving, not sightseeing underground. If you're
>just sightseeing, you may well want to get to a particular formation or
>room, so that you can claim to have "done" the cave.
I'm not so certain about weirdness. Normal these days is some version
of an urbanized society person. It could be Western 1st world, Eastern,
or even Middle Eastern.
The goal is the darkness by your reading and my rereading.
>Few, if any mountain climbers hope to find a second, more lofty peak when
>they start up a mountain. But that is exactly what is often in the heart
>of a cave explorer when they go into a "known" cave. Perhaps the crawlway
>they squeeze into leads to even deeper and grander passages than previously
>known. Most likely not. Mostly it is just muddy and chilly and wet and
>dark. Cavers know this, but like I say, they're weird.
Oh, I suspect that the newer list oriented types would disagree with
your 1st sentence here. A good example was from Doug's silly comment
which I have to get back to about his colleagues on his Muir trail trip.
I don't buy Freudian interpretations of caving.
>Another thing one notices before very long is the incredible change of
>timespan. If you cut a few switchbacks, poop in the wrong place, even burn
>down a whole forest on the surface, in a few hundred years probably no one
>will know the difference. Not so in a cave. If even a fairly small
>stalactite is broken, even if it manages to regrow, life as we know it will
>never see it. Sure, there are places in caves in which all trace of your
>passage will vanish in a matter of seconds, but there are also places where
>your footprint (or whatever) will be around for thousands upon thousands of
>years. Now consider all this in a sunless, timeless (for all practical
>purposes, there are no cues) environment. If you weren't weird when you
>started caving, juxtapositions like this will make you so in short order.
This I do agree with although I am not essentially a caver (having been
in a few). It (you) follow Fletcher's rate of travel dictums. The
problem you have here is novices.
>>Broadcast is not necessarily a friend of caving.
>>The problem is novices and less thans.
>
>I get other cavers pretty upset sometimes when I say: "Practice the
>ultimate in cave conservation -- don't go."
That's Ruskin for you.
You should consider reading him more than Muir, Thoreau, Nash, and
others. Cohen's Pathless Way while mostly about Muir had a couple of
pointers to Ruskin, but try a library.
--
Eugene Miya
>>the Chronicles.
In article <gkg1q1lrdkmkg1ln4...@4ax.com>,
George Cleveland <georgec...@nospam.msn.com> wrote:
>As am I. The first book in the Narnia Chronicles was good. The rest of
>the books bogged down. A friend at work started reading the Narnia
>books on the recommendation of a mutual friend. She got to the middle
>of the second book and just couldn't go any further. I read all of
>them in my youth but I don't think I'd ever read them again. OTH I
>read Tolkien on an average of once every five years or so.
I read JRR twice in college.
Surprisingly I didn't learn about Lewis until much later.
I think the best work of his I read is The Screwtape Letters.
I have been meaning to read the Chronicles (and Harry Potter for that
matter) "one of these days."
This good idea taken to extremes dying in a wimper appears common:
Herbert, Card, Asimov, et all didn't sustain the energy. For some
reason JRR did.
But now, I would rather my own travels.
This is why I get a silly grin from a film which didn't do well like
Life Aquatic or reading Dave Robert's new book or Chouinard's business book.
Not enough time.
--
Eugene Miya
Gio Medici <giom...@sumware.com> wrote:
> (Eugene Miya) wrote:
>>> George Cleveland wrote:
>>>>"Why should all the major religions of the modern world include a
>>>>crucial encounter with wilderness...
>
>>>(Gio)
>>>They were all dealing with aliens and didn't want witnesses.
>>
>>Ever see the old series The Invaders? They placed little things on
>>bodies: their, humans, whatever, which vaporized them.
>>Evidence was at a premium. Now there are too many alien invader
>>programs to keep up and monitor their consistency.
>
>Rumor has it that the series 'V' had real-life aspects to it, as does
>the current series 'Stargate'.
I just saw my old officemate Diana (who briefly lurked years ago).
V was telecast during that period. Amusing to know a person with such a
name at that time. Must have been some hell for little girls with that
name in schools.
Other than human names and forms, I am not clear what you mean by
real-life aspects.
V's one stepping stone value was that it answered the HG Wells bacteria
question (smart aliens vaccinate themselves before invading a planet).
Star Trek only recently (in Enterprise) dealt with this issue. But
microbiology raises interesting questions about interplanetary life.
I've not seen much of Stargate. The movies was mildly entertaining.
Thank God I don't have cable or satellite. Excepting added special
effects I note that the soldiers carry current day weapons (actually
this was not done badly in the Aliens film).
In a way it's amazing what it takes to completely destroy a body.
Initial watery bits like hair, ears, nose, eye lids, etc. go fast
(people can survive these losses, I know). But we are such a youth
oriented culture, we really avoid death in denial.
I helped a close friend bury at sea the ashes of his mother and father
(this took 2 attempts due to paper work and even his wife didn't come
the 2nd time). I thought that some of the human ash (mostly bone) would
float. None of it did. It just all sank. The Neptune people know
this. So they offer rose petals. Not flame, not acids, etc. only time.
>>>It was diabolical shifting the path to 'enlightenment' away from
>>>within to the blood-sucking priests.
>>Life of Brian?
>
> Brian (to adoring crowd): You've got to think for yourself! You
>are all individuals!
> Crowd (in unison): Yes, we are all individuals!
> Brian (to adoring crowd): You are all different!
> Crowd (in unison): Yes, we are all different!
> Single voice (from within the crowd): I'm not.
> Crowd (in unison):Shh!
I was just at a lecture set up by Stew Brand and the guys was talking
about some of this (End of the world, individuals and religion).
Long subject. It's an anchor around many people's necks (both pro and con).
>>>And Darwin was a scumbag to
>>>disguise the 'creationist' (alien) tampering with human DNA.
>>!
>
>Less-than-intelligent design is a lot more likely than evolution or
>intelligent design.
Just say the word "Appendix."
--
Eugene Miya
Gio Medici <giom...@sumware.com> wrote:
> Galen Hekhuis <ghek...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>dark. Cavers know this, but like I say, they're weird.
>
>Do caves often expose veins or pockets of collectible or valuable
>metals and minerals?
This is an infrequent sci.geo.geology topic.
The short answer is yes, but not commonly. You can usually find surface
expressions of these (many more and it doesn't depend on solubility).
Troll for Rick. He's a geologist by training. I have no idea what he's
doing now other than posting.
Quickly, a cave gets widened to become a tunnel or mine.
If you travel the Western slopes of the Sierra foothills you will find
at certain elevations caves and gold mines. There's a half a dozen or
so paid to play caves, 1-2 you can rappel in (cavers use overkill then
climbers). This layer goes hundreds of miles N-S.
>Enough of it to justify mining operations?
Some times. They don't remain caves for long.
>Have you ever come upon unexplained man-made blockages deep underground?
Huh?
--
Chris Townsend
writes
Ruskin will be an unknown name to many I guess. I haven't read him in
many years (decades probably). He was a thinker rather than a doer, a
viewer rather than an explorer. I've visited his house in the English
Lake District.
I thought the Pathless Way good, the best book I've read on Muir.
Chris Townsend
writes
>>>>> C.S. Lewis
>>>JRR was less supportive and was less impressed with the development of
>>>the Chronicles.
>
>In article <gkg1q1lrdkmkg1ln4...@4ax.com>,
>George Cleveland <georgec...@nospam.msn.com> wrote:
>>As am I. The first book in the Narnia Chronicles was good. The rest of
>>the books bogged down. A friend at work started reading the Narnia
>>books on the recommendation of a mutual friend. She got to the middle
>>of the second book and just couldn't go any further. I read all of
>>them in my youth but I don't think I'd ever read them again. OTH I
>>read Tolkien on an average of once every five years or so.
>
>I read JRR twice in college.
>Surprisingly I didn't learn about Lewis until much later.
>I think the best work of his I read is The Screwtape Letters.
>I have been meaning to read the Chronicles (and Harry Potter for that
>matter) "one of these days."
I read Lewis before Tolkien - at the age of about nine. I enjoyed most
of the Narnia books back then and read them several times. I'd no idea
they had anything to do with Christianity. I've never read them since.
(Haven't seen the film yet either). I read The Screwtape Letters much
later and thought it interesting.
Lord of the Rings I read when eleven and have read many times since. I
think it "works" so well because Tolkien had already created a whole
world to set his story in.
Harry Potter is, I think, patchy. The third one is the best. The latest
film is pretty good.
>
>This good idea taken to extremes dying in a wimper appears common:
>Herbert, Card, Asimov, et all didn't sustain the energy. For some
>reason JRR did.
Again, I think it was because he created a coherent world.
>
>But now, I would rather my own travels.
Of course. So would 1.
>
>This is why I get a silly grin from a film which didn't do well like
>Life Aquatic or reading Dave Robert's new book or Chouinard's business book.
Julian Baggini's The Pig That Wants To Be Eaten is entertaining and
thought provoking.
>
>Not enough time.
>
Sadly true.
pmhilton
Eugene Miya wrote:
>
> I don't buy Freudian interpretations of caving.
>
>
It's a reasonable bet that if you don't buy Freudian interpretations of
ANYTHING you'll be pretty well served in nearly all circumstances.
Alfred Falk
> In article <43A07A00...@mfx.net>, pmhilton <pmhi...@mfx.net>
> wrote:
>>Eugene Miya wrote:
>>> C.S. Lewis and Tolkien were just compared on NPR (publicity because
>>> of the Chronicles).
> The film, not the book.
>>Because they were both members of a small group who frequently read &
>>critiqued one another's writings as they progressed. They were fast
>>friends in addition to being members of 'The Inklings.'
>
> I would not say from the NPR boradcast that they were fast friends.
> They implied that JRR started off Catholic and Lewis more agnostic.
> The problem was the lack of reciprocal opinions to each others works.
> NPR implied Lewis was more supportive to JRR after the Hobbit, but
> JRR was less supportive and was less impressed with the development of
> the Chronicles.
A bio of Tolkien said that he became increasingly resentful of CSL
because of a number of things:
- CSL became rather suddenly a Christian and expert on that subject,
where JRRT lived as a devout Catholic from childhood.
- CSL had some disparaging comments about JRRT's songs in LOTR.
- CSL pumped out a Narnia in under a year and proclaimed writing such
things to be easy. Tolkien struggled for years with LOTR.
- CSL got a better-paying job.
I seem to recall the author saying that Tolkien had some harsh words for
CSL after Narnia was published, and they never completely patched it up.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------
A L B E R T A Alfred Falk fa...@arc.ab.ca
R E S E A R C H Information Systems Dept (780)450-5185
C O U N C I L 250 Karl Clark Road
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
http://www.arc.ab.ca/ T6N 1E4
http://www.arc.ab.ca/staff/falk/
Galen Hekhuis
wrote:
>Do caves often expose veins or pockets of collectible or valuable
>metals and minerals? Enougof it to justify mining operations?
Very, very rarely. Most caves are found in limestone, a sedimentary rock.
There are those (especially cement companies) that consider limestone
valuable, but it is very rare to find gold, silver, precious gems and the
like around limestone. There are some rather unique geologic formations
that have placed limestone next to other rocks, and there are a few lava
tubes and crevice (talus) type caves that may expose valuable minerals, but
most of these are coincidence more than anything else.
>Have you ever come upon unexplained man-made blockages deep
>underground?
Never. I have come across man-made blockages, but these are all easily
explained. The vast majority of them are either gates or the like placed
by other cavers to restrict passage to a certain section, or sometimes they
are merely the results of a screw-up when someone tried to blast open a
passage.
Elliot Richmond
wrote:
>This good idea taken to extremes dying in a wimper appears common:
>Herbert, Card, Asimov, et all didn't sustain the energy. For some
>reason JRR did.
The difference is that The Lord of the Rings is a single book,
published in three volumes, and written according to a basic design
and complex mythology worked out in incredible detail in advance of
writing the book. The others were written in a sequence with an
evolving and an incompletely worked out and somewhat inconsistent
"mythology."
I think there was also some laziness on the part of the other writers
due to the guaranteed success of later books. I do not think Tolkien
had commercial success as a goal. After finishing the book, he
appeared to have no interest in writing a sequel, since he considered
it done. However, he did enjoy touring and talking about the book and
even singing the songs.
Elliot Richmond
Freelance Science Writer and Editor
Galen Hekhuis
>This is an infrequent sci.geo.geology topic.
>The short answer is yes, but not commonly. You can usually find surface
>expressions of these (many more and it doesn't depend on solubility).
>Troll for Rick. He's a geologist by training. I have no idea what he's
>doing now other than posting.
That's news to me.
>Quickly, a cave gets widened to become a tunnel or mine.
>
>If you travel the Western slopes of the Sierra foothills you will find
>at certain elevations caves and gold mines. There's a half a dozen or
>so paid to play caves, 1-2 you can rappel in (cavers use overkill then
>climbers). This layer goes hundreds of miles N-S.
I seriously doubt that limestone and gold are that close together. Perhaps
a "cave" means just a hole in the ground to many people. This virtually
never occurs around limestone solution caves. Where is this location,
where caves and gold are found together?
Eugene Miya
>>That's Ruskin for you.
>>You should consider reading him more than Muir, Thoreau, Nash, and
>>others. Cohen's Pathless Way while mostly about Muir had a couple of
>>pointers to Ruskin, but try a library.
In article <xzblc7Dh...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Ruskin will be an unknown name to many I guess.
Well you only have some much time to cover so many Transcendalists in
Literature classes. The question is whom to throw out. Alas John is one.
The class will depend if one gets American lit: Emerson/Thoreau, English
(language vs. country) lit., or world lit. (Rosseau: "Do you want freedom
fries with that?").
>I haven't read him in
>many years (decades probably). He was a thinker rather than a doer, a
>viewer rather than an explorer. I've visited his house in the English
>Lake District.
Hey, I've been there.
He's a bit "too Greek" for me.
Empiricism is underrated Remember: go count horse's teeth than think
about it. This is why AI won't work.
>I thought the Pathless Way good, the best book I've read on Muir.
Most people won't relate that this is the same Mike Cohen who wrote a
popular rock climbing book published by the Sierra Club. He shows
useful future doubt (oh what I am going to do with my life).
--
Eugene Miya
Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>I read Lewis before Tolkien - at the age of about nine. I enjoyed most
>of the Narnia books back then and read them several times. I'd no idea
>they had anything to do with Christianity. I've never read them since.
>(Haven't seen the film yet either). I read The Screwtape Letters much
>later and thought it interesting.
>
>Lord of the Rings I read when eleven and have read many times since. I
>think it "works" so well because Tolkien had already created a whole
>world to set his story in.
Well the Sil.* shows this. They were Trekkies before Star Trek.
>Harry Potter is, I think, patchy. The third one is the best. The latest
>film is pretty good.
3rd Really? Rowling refining her writing?
>>This good idea taken to extremes dying in a wimper appears common:
>>Herbert, Card, Asimov, et all didn't sustain the energy. For some
>>reason JRR did.
>
>Again, I think it was because he created a coherent world.
Ditto above comment about JRR.
I used to work with and know one of Asimov's nephews.
>>But now, I would rather my own travels.
>
>Of course. So would 1.
Ah, you are too easy to agree with!
>>This is why I get a silly grin from a film which didn't do well like
>>Life Aquatic or reading Dave Robert's new book or Chouinard's business book.
>
>Julian Baggini's The Pig That Wants To Be Eaten is entertaining and
>thought provoking.
I have heard this.
>>Not enough time.
>>
>Sadly true.
;^)
--
Eugene Miya
>> I don't buy Freudian interpretations of caving.
In article <43A1C1F0...@mfx.net>, pmhilton <pmhi...@mfx.net> wrote:
>It's a reasonable bet that if you don't buy Freudian interpretations of
>ANYTHING you'll be pretty well served in nearly all circumstances.
I've not yet visit Vienna yet. I am thinking of skipping it for skiing
if I go to Austria next month. Austrian women have these kinds of
problems? I dun tink so....
The best send up of Freud was in Bill and Ted's first film.
Naw, I take the warnings of behaviorists like Skinner, Watson, Premack.
And recent people who realize like Brooks that's a lot of behavior.
--
Eugene Miya
Alfred Falk <fa...@arc.REMOVE.ab.ca> wrote:
>A bio of Tolkien said that he became increasingly resentful of CSL
>because of a number of things:
>- CSL became rather suddenly a Christian and expert on that subject,
>where JRRT lived as a devout Catholic from childhood.
of those 2 words for granted. Billions have no idea
what you European descendent mean by this. I.e., parts of the
Vatican rag are lost to us (Maohai, too).
>- CSL had some disparaging comments about JRRT's songs in LOTR.
>- CSL pumped out a Narnia in under a year and proclaimed writing such
>things to be easy. Tolkien struggled for years with LOTR.
>- CSL got a better-paying job.
>I seem to recall the author saying that Tolkien had some harsh words for
>CSL after Narnia was published, and they never completely patched it up.
This was mostly on NPR.
--
Gio Medici
>>(Gio)
>>Do caves often expose veins or pockets of collectible or valuable
>>metals and minerals?
>
>This is an infrequent sci.geo.geology topic.
>The short answer is yes, but not commonly. You can usually find surface
>expressions of these (many more and it doesn't depend on solubility).
>Troll for Rick. He's a geologist by training. I have no idea what he's
>doing now other than posting.
>
>Quickly, a cave gets widened to become a tunnel or mine.
>
>If you travel the Western slopes of the Sierra foothills you will find
>at certain elevations caves and gold mines. There's a half a dozen or
>so paid to play caves, 1-2 you can rappel in (cavers use overkill then
>climbers). This layer goes hundreds of miles N-S.
>
>>Enough of it to justify mining operations?
>
>Some times. They don't remain caves for long.
>
>>Have you ever come upon unexplained man-made blockages deep underground?
>
>Huh?
I've run across several intances where miners were suprised when they
dug into somebody else's work underground. Seems like there would be a
caver finding something unexpected now and then?
Gio
Chris Townsend
writes
>In article <Lyw7s5EN...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
>Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>I read Lewis before Tolkien - at the age of about nine. I enjoyed most
>>of the Narnia books back then and read them several times. I'd no idea
>>they had anything to do with Christianity. I've never read them since.
>>(Haven't seen the film yet either). I read The Screwtape Letters much
>>later and thought it interesting.
>>
>>Lord of the Rings I read when eleven and have read many times since. I
>>think it "works" so well because Tolkien had already created a whole
>>world to set his story in.
>
>Well the Sil.* shows this. They were Trekkies before Star Trek.
And before Tolkien.
>
>>Harry Potter is, I think, patchy. The third one is the best. The latest
>>film is pretty good.
>
>3rd Really? Rowling refining her writing?
I think the plot is stronger in the 3rd book and the atmosphere is
darker and more serious. This comes out in the film too. The 4th and 5th
books are too big and baggy and could do with editing. There are good
stories in there but too much other stuff.
>
>
>>>This good idea taken to extremes dying in a wimper appears common:
>>>Herbert, Card, Asimov, et all didn't sustain the energy. For some
>>>reason JRR did.
>>
>>Again, I think it was because he created a coherent world.
>
>Ditto above comment about JRR.
>
>I used to work with and know one of Asimov's nephews.
I can't say the same for JRR!
>
>>>But now, I would rather my own travels.
>>
>>Of course. So would 1.
>
>Ah, you are too easy to agree with!
We both like travelling.
>
>
>>>This is why I get a silly grin from a film which didn't do well like
>>>Life Aquatic or reading Dave Robert's new book or Chouinard's business book.
>>
>>Julian Baggini's The Pig That Wants To Be Eaten is entertaining and
>>thought provoking.
>
>I have heard this.
100 thought experiments of various kinds (not all moral/ethical ones).
The title comes from Douglas Adams of course - who Baggini credits.
Chris Townsend
writes
>>>>ultimate in cave conservation -- don't go."
>>>That's Ruskin for you.
>>>You should consider reading him more than Muir, Thoreau, Nash, and
>>>others. Cohen's Pathless Way while mostly about Muir had a couple of
>>>pointers to Ruskin, but try a library.
>
>
>In article <xzblc7Dh...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
>Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>Ruskin will be an unknown name to many I guess.
>
>Well you only have some much time to cover so many Transcendalists in
>Literature classes. The question is whom to throw out. Alas John is one.
>
>The class will depend if one gets American lit: Emerson/Thoreau, English
>(language vs. country) lit., or world lit. (Rosseau: "Do you want freedom
>fries with that?").
Here he is often studied under art history (not a subject I have done).
I studied him in English Literature. Emerson and Thoreau were not on any
course I did but I have read much of the latter and about them in Nash.
>
>>I haven't read him in
>>many years (decades probably). He was a thinker rather than a doer, a
>>viewer rather than an explorer. I've visited his house in the English
>>Lake District.
>
>Hey, I've been there.
>
>He's a bit "too Greek" for me.
>Empiricism is underrated Remember: go count horse's teeth than think
>about it. This is why AI won't work.
I'd rather do than think.
>
>>I thought the Pathless Way good, the best book I've read on Muir.
>
>Most people won't relate that this is the same Mike Cohen who wrote a
>popular rock climbing book published by the Sierra Club. He shows
>useful future doubt (oh what I am going to do with my life).
I didn't know about the rock climbing book.
>
pmhilton
Eugene Miya wrote:
>
> Naw, I take the warnings of behaviorists like Skinner, Watson, Premack.
> And recent people who realize like Brooks that's a lot of behavior.
>
"People Are The Strangest Animals" is a sub-set of "The General
Cussedness of Things."
Greg D. Moore (Strider)
"Galen Hekhuis" <ghek...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:87h3q15oo584nlbvb...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 07:54:15 -0700, Gio Medici <giom...@sumware.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Have you ever come upon unexplained man-made blockages deep
> >underground?
>
> Never. I have come across man-made blockages, but these are all easily
> explained. The vast majority of them are either gates or the like placed
> by other cavers to restrict passage to a certain section, or sometimes
they
> are merely the results of a screw-up when someone tried to blast open a
> passage.
Not exactly a blockage, but a local cave has a room with a well-pipe running
through it.
Eugene Miya
Elliot Richmond <xmric...@xaustin.xrr.xcom> wrote:
>The difference is that The Lord of the Rings is a single book,
>published in three volumes, and written according to a basic design
>and complex mythology worked out in incredible detail in advance of
>writing the book. The others were written in a sequence with an
>evolving and an incompletely worked out and somewhat inconsistent
>"mythology."
Well I think we basically agree, leaving out the Hobbit.
This s why I mentioned the Sil.
>I think there was also some laziness on the part of the other writers
>due to the guaranteed success of later books. I do not think Tolkien
>had commercial success as a goal. After finishing the book, he
>appeared to have no interest in writing a sequel, since he considered
>it done. However, he did enjoy touring and talking about the book and
>even singing the songs.
I suspect that he was also tired of the comparisons to current events
(WWII), and a number of other factors.
We've beat this horse, bear, dead again...
--
Eugene Miya
Galen Hekhuis <ghek...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>On 15 Dec 2005 10:33:04 -0700, eug...@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) wrote:
>>This is an infrequent sci.geo.geology topic.
>>The short answer is yes, but not commonly. You can usually find surface
>>expressions of these (many more and it doesn't depend on solubility).
>>Troll for Rick. He's a geologist by training. I have no idea what he's
>>doing now other than posting.
>
>That's news to me.
Which news? s.g.g.? Rick being a geo? What he's doing?
>>Quickly, a cave gets widened to become a tunnel or mine.
>>If you travel the Western slopes of the Sierra foothills you will find
>>at certain elevations caves and gold mines. There's a half a dozen or
>>so paid to play caves, 1-2 you can rappel in (cavers use overkill then
>>climbers). This layer goes hundreds of miles N-S.
>
>I seriously doubt that limestone and gold are that close together. Perhaps
>a "cave" means just a hole in the ground to many people. This virtually
>never occurs around limestone solution caves. Where is this location,
>where caves and gold are found together?
Caves here are commonly ground holes. Look close, I didn't say
together. The Sierra foothills are a vast area on a fault block (I have
3-d plastic injected relief maps from Hubbard. There's Boyden, these
are commercial, Crystal, oh, what are those ones off CA 4, near Arnold, etc.
Then there are active Au mines near Sonora. Amateurs pan and dry sluice
all those river areas.
s.g.g.
--
Eugene Miya
>Eugene Miya wrote:
>> Naw, I take the warnings of behaviorists like Skinner, Watson, Premack.
>> And recent people who realize like Brooks that's a lot of behavior.
>>
>"People Are The Strangest Animals"
This is true. We are certainly complex. One look at some of my god kids
tells me this.
But there are other strange animals out there, which is why dear net.ent,
we ask about others net.species (and a few people lack imagination).
How many net.playapi have we?
None, hey I thought I had the Ent in here, but I see I have to add you.
Sorry about that.
>is a sub-set of "The General Cussedness of Things."
8^)
But reflexes and operant behavior dominate.
--
Galen Hekhuis
>
>Which news? s.g.g.? Rick being a geo? What he's doing?
The news to me is that you can find any significant kind of valuable
deposits in the same kind of geological formations in which you find
limestone. Your "...short answer is yes, but not commonly" I would have
phrased as "...short answer is no, although you might be able to find some
exceptions." I missed what s.g.g. might stand for.
>Caves here are commonly ground holes. Look close, I didn't say
>together. The Sierra foothills are a vast area on a fault block (I have
>3-d plastic injected relief maps from Hubbard. There's Boyden, these
>are commercial, Crystal, oh, what are those ones off CA 4, near Arnold, etc.
>Then there are active Au mines near Sonora. Amateurs pan and dry sluice
>all those river areas.
Panning and dry sluice are hardly mining. Besides, those "deposits" in
river areas and beds are little more than a "coincidental" gathering of
materials eroded away from other rock formations. I have never, ever heard
of any caver finding anything valuable (gems, gold or the like, I had a
brass lantern returned to me that someone had found in an underground
stream. I had dropped the lantern years before, it was valuable to me) in
a cave.
>s.g.g.
Huh?
Eugene Miya
>>>it "works" so well because Tolkien had already created a whole
>>>world to set his story in.
>>Well the Sil.* shows this. They were Trekkies before Star Trek.
In article <YXOk1XBr...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>And before Tolkien.
Well he wrote both.
He would put whatever he wanted in his world.
>>>Harry Potter is, I think, patchy. The third one is the best. The latest
>>>film is pretty good.
>>3rd Really? Rowling refining her writing?
>
>I think the plot is stronger in the 3rd book and the atmosphere is
>darker and more serious. This comes out in the film too. The 4th and 5th
>books are too big and baggy and could do with editing. There are good
>stories in there but too much other stuff.
Does it have to be dark and serious to be better?
Again, Watson isn't here about the whole lit. community insisting on
moody pieces to make great works of literature.
>>I used to work with and know one of Asimov's nephews.
>
>I can't say the same for JRR!
I thought the UK was a small place and you guys all knew each other.
I just found out (Dave Roberts knows Rick Millikan who is one of
Mallory's grand kids). I just met Rick last year and have been meaning
to as Roberts for a reprint.
Over time, my opinions of Asimov has tarnish a bit, but he's OK.
The Silicon Valley is a comparatively small community among the tech types.
>We both like travelling.
We are on similar wavelengths.
>>>>Life Aquatic
>>>Julian Baggini's The Pig That Wants To Be Eaten is entertaining and
>>>thought provoking.
>
>100 thought experiments of various kinds (not all moral/ethical ones).
Gedanken-experiments are overrated.
Realexperiments, real observations need to be taken.
>The title comes from Douglas Adams of course - who Baggini credits.
Oh yes, I forget the precise name of the creature breed to be eaten.
>>>>Not enough time.
>>>Sadly true.
>>;^)
>
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Eugene Miya
Gio Medici <giom...@sumware.com> wrote:
>>>Do caves often expose veins or pockets of collectible or valuable
>>>metals and minerals?
>>This is an infrequent sci.geo.geology topic.
>
>dug into somebody else's work underground. Seems like there would be a
>caver finding something unexpected now and then?
I think the bat would tell you linkages and discoveries happen.
Wasn't Rodan supposedily "discovered" in a mine?
I think these are mostly coal mines.
Again, I think you would get better returns in s.g.g.
--
Eugene Miya
>>>>That's Ruskin for you.
In article <FHUjR1AC...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Here he is often studied under art history (not a subject I have done).
>I studied him in English Literature. Emerson and Thoreau were not on any
>course I did but I have read much of the latter and about them in Nash.
Well, he was an architecture critic.
Don't forget there are guys like Steve Desert traveller who don't like
books on these subjects. He can spend his time in the RV group now.
You like Rod's books? He's quite a character in real life.
We've not chatted in a couple of decades, but one of his colleagues and
I just emailed. One of his ex-grad students now works for/with Rob
Reiner in Hollywood. Rod's 1st book (while survey depth) is very very good.
>>>Ruskin:
>>>I haven't read him in
>>>many years (decades probably). He was a thinker rather than a doer, a
>>>viewer rather than an explorer. I've visited his house in the English
>>>Lake District.
>
>I'd rather do than think.
Ah, you are generalizing about your self. We can spot a thinker.
It's the balance which is hard to achieve.
>>>Pathless Way
>>Most people won't relate that this is the same Mike Cohen who wrote a
>>popular rock climbing book published by the Sierra Club. He shows
>>useful future doubt (oh what I am going to do with my life).
>
>I didn't know about the rock climbing book.
See Loughman, I think. He's also in Ascent. He'sa a lesser seen part
of the Steck-Roper crowd.
--
Eugene Miya
Galen Hekhuis <ghek...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>On 16 Dec 2005 09:00:07 -0700, eug...@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) wrote:
>>Which news? s.g.g.? Rick being a geo? What he's doing?
>
>The news to me is that you can find any significant kind of valuable
>deposits in the same kind of geological formations in which you find
>limestone. Your "...short answer is yes, but not commonly" I would have
>phrased as "...short answer is no, although you might be able to find some
>exceptions." I missed what s.g.g. might stand for.
Sci.geo.geology. Generally a better group, unless you have to deal with
earthquakes, for solid earth science questions.
Oh, I wouldn't imply significant. Only over a regional (say
county-level) as best.
>Panning and dry sluice are hardly mining. Besides, those "deposits" in
>river areas and beds are little more than a "coincidental" gathering of
>materials eroded away from other rock formations. I have never, ever heard
>of any caver finding anything valuable (gems, gold or the like, I had a
>brass lantern returned to me that someone had found in an underground
>stream. I had dropped the lantern years before, it was valuable to me) in
>a cave.
They are mining here. But it would be better to be the guy selling the pans.
CA has a very nice State Mining and Mineral Museum just outside Yosemite.
I'm going to wrap up. Back to work. Maybe back Monday.
--
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Chris Townsend
writes
>>>>>>ultimate in cave conservation -- don't go."
>>>>>That's Ruskin for you.
>
>In article <FHUjR1AC...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
>Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>Here he is often studied under art history (not a subject I have done).
>>I studied him in English Literature. Emerson and Thoreau were not on any
>>course I did but I have read much of the latter and about them in Nash.
>
>Well, he was an architecture critic.
And an art (painting) critic.
>
>Don't forget there are guys like Steve Desert traveller who don't like
>books on these subjects. He can spend his time in the RV group now.
>
>You like Rod's books? He's quite a character in real life.
>We've not chatted in a couple of decades, but one of his colleagues and
>I just emailed. One of his ex-grad students now works for/with Rob
>Reiner in Hollywood. Rod's 1st book (while survey depth) is very very good.
I've only read Wilderness and the American Mind, which I think is
excellent.
>
>
>>>>Ruskin:
>>>>I haven't read him in
>>>>many years (decades probably). He was a thinker rather than a doer, a
>>>>viewer rather than an explorer. I've visited his house in the English
>>>>Lake District.
>>
>>I'd rather do than think.
>
>Ah, you are generalizing about your self. We can spot a thinker.
>It's the balance which is hard to achieve.
I find the two go together. If I stop doing the thinking becomes harder
and slower.
>
>>>>Pathless Way
>>>Most people won't relate that this is the same Mike Cohen who wrote a
>>>popular rock climbing book published by the Sierra Club. He shows
>>>useful future doubt (oh what I am going to do with my life).
>>
>>I didn't know about the rock climbing book.
>
>See Loughman, I think. He's also in Ascent. He'sa a lesser seen part
>of the Steck-Roper crowd.
>
That puts some of what he says in Pathless Way in context. I gathered
from the book he spent much time in the Sierra.
Chris Townsend
writes
>>>>Lord of the Rings...
>>>>it "works" so well because Tolkien had already created a whole
>>>>world to set his story in.
>>>Well the Sil.* shows this. They were Trekkies before Star Trek.
>
>In article <YXOk1XBr...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
>Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>And before Tolkien.
>
>Well he wrote both.
>He would put whatever he wanted in his world.
But unlike Lewis who mixed Greek, Roman, Norse and Christian figures and
stories (the Ice Queen, fauns, Aslan/Jesus) Tolkien set out to create a
coherent world based on Germanic mythology (Anglo-Saxon and Norse). He
felt that England needed a mythology of its own and set out to create
one.
>
>>>>Harry Potter is, I think, patchy. The third one is the best. The latest
>>>>film is pretty good.
>>>3rd Really? Rowling refining her writing?
>>
>>I think the plot is stronger in the 3rd book and the atmosphere is
>>darker and more serious. This comes out in the film too. The 4th and 5th
>>books are too big and baggy and could do with editing. There are good
>>stories in there but too much other stuff.
>
>Does it have to be dark and serious to be better?
Not necessarily. But the first two are very much light children's books
with potentially dark and serious subjects and moments backed away from.
>Again, Watson isn't here about the whole lit. community insisting on
>moody pieces to make great works of literature.
Hamlet rather A Midsummer Night's Dream. I don't go along with that.
>
>
>>>I used to work with and know one of Asimov's nephews.
>>
>>I can't say the same for JRR!
>
>I thought the UK was a small place and you guys all knew each other.
Scotland seems a bit like that! As does the outdoor world. At an annual
trekking company party (KE - for whom I lead occasionally) down south in
the English Lake District I met another leader who I had first met in
Kathmandu and discovered she lives ten miles from me.
>
>I just found out (Dave Roberts knows Rick Millikan who is one of
>Mallory's grand kids). I just met Rick last year and have been meaning
>to as Roberts for a reprint.
I went to the conference where the reconstruction of Mallory's clothing
was unveiled back in September. Interesting stuff. It was better than
anyone guessed.
>
>Over time, my opinions of Asimov has tarnish a bit, but he's OK.
>The Silicon Valley is a comparatively small community among the tech types.
I haven't read any Asimov for decades.
>
>>We both like travelling.
>
>We are on similar wavelengths.
On some things :-). I'm not a scientist.
>
>>>>>Life Aquatic
>>>>Julian Baggini's The Pig That Wants To Be Eaten is entertaining and
>>>>thought provoking.
>>
>>100 thought experiments of various kinds (not all moral/ethical ones).
>
>Gedanken-experiments are overrated.
>Realexperiments, real observations need to be taken.
Baggini is a philosopher.
Some of the experiments are rather artificial.
>
>>The title comes from Douglas Adams of course - who Baggini credits.
>
>Oh yes, I forget the precise name of the creature breed to be eaten.
A cow.
Eugene Miya
>>>>>>That's Ruskin for you.
In article <p4eY+7Ar...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>And an art (painting) critic.
Some, Stew Brand, Don Norman would say that they are the same thing.
>>You like Rod's books? He's quite a character in real life.
>
>I've only read Wilderness and the American Mind, which I think is
>excellent.
Which edition? 3? 2? 1?
You know, the 1st ed. was published in 1967; I could have really used
that book in 1970 when we were organizing the 1st Environmental Teach-In.
It would have saved a lot of time and sharped arguments.
It's an awesome history book especially considering when it was
published.
>>>>>Ruskin:
>>>>>He was a thinker rather than a doer, a
>>Ah, you are generalizing about your self. We can spot a thinker.
>>It's the balance which is hard to achieve.
>
>I find the two go together. If I stop doing the thinking becomes harder
>and slower.
Iterative idea refinement.
They are separable at a fine time difference (delta).
The problem these day is data overload.
But you know that.
>>>>>Pathless Way
>>See Loughman, I think. He's also in Ascent. He's a lesser seen part
>>of the Steck-Roper crowd.
>>
>That puts some of what he says in Pathless Way in context. I gathered
>from the book he spent much time in the Sierra.
That's a Sierra Club problem; it has a California bias.
--
Eugene Miya
In article <4oLcqeB+...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>Lord of the Rings...
>>>And before Tolkien.
>>He would put whatever he wanted in his world.
>
>But unlike Lewis who mixed Greek, Roman, Norse and Christian figures and
>stories (the Ice Queen, fauns, Aslan/Jesus) Tolkien set out to create a
>coherent world based on Germanic mythology (Anglo-Saxon and Norse). He
>felt that England needed a mythology of its own and set out to create
>one.
I think NPR implied that LOTR came first (actually Hobbit).
The Mixing came later.
My friends point out that Oxfrod's dark Nationalist Socialist secret was
Hitler's plan to make Oxford New London had he conquerored the British Isles.
>>>>>Harry Potter is, I think, patchy. The third one is the best. The latest
>>>>>film is pretty good.
>>>I think the plot is stronger in the 3rd book and the atmosphere is
>>>darker and more serious. This comes out in the film too. The 4th and 5th
>>>books are too big and baggy and could do with editing. There are good
>>>stories in there but too much other stuff.
>>Does it have to be dark and serious to be better?
>
>Not necessarily. But the first two are very much light children's books
>with potentially dark and serious subjects and moments backed away from.
I thought that was the point of the first 2 and the later more recent
ones being for adolescence......
Bilbo as a Hobbit wasn't very deep either.
Sometimes too much is made of depth.
But then there is the issue of history....
>>Again, Watson isn't here about the whole lit. community insisting on
>>moody pieces to make great works of literature.
>Hamlet rather A Midsummer Night's Dream. I don't go along with that.
"George Lucas in Love...."
>>the UK was a small place and you guys all knew each other.
>
>Scotland seems a bit like that! As does the outdoor world. At an annual
>trekking company party (KE - for whom I lead occasionally) down south in
>the English Lake District I met another leader who I had first met in
>Kathmandu and discovered she lives ten miles from me.
I need to check bait in c.s.s. (another group.)
Nick responded that he had a fan come up to him in Seattle and say
"You really do exist." I have to find his collection of conference bootie.
>>I just found out (Dave Roberts knows Rick Millikan who is one of
>>Mallory's grand kids). I just met Rick last year and have been meaning
>>to as Roberts for a reprint.
>I went to the conference where the reconstruction of Mallory's clothing
>was unveiled back in September. Interesting stuff. It was better than
>anyone guessed.
Yeah, I think I told you Rick think's his grand Dad made summitted.
Now calling Mr. Irvine....
>>Over time, my opinions of Asimov has tarnish a bit, but he's OK.
>>The Silicon Valley is a comparatively small community among the tech types.
>
>I haven't read any Asimov for decades.
Actually I think Asimov's intellectual descendents may be more topics.
Orson Scott Card, Neal Stephenson (fun friend), Kim Stan Robinson (just
in the area, but didn't go see him, he's not far away).
>>>We both like travelling.
>>We are on similar wavelengths.
>On some things :-). I'm not a scientist.
That's just the day job.
>>>>>Julian Baggini's The Pig That Wants To Be Eaten is entertaining and
>>>>>thought provoking.
>>>100 thought experiments of various kinds (not all moral/ethical ones).
>>Gedanken-experiments are overrated.
>>Realexperiments, real observations need to be taken.
>
>Baggini is a philosopher.
A strike against him.
>Some of the experiments are rather artificial.
Artifical or contrived?
>>>The title comes from Douglas Adams of course - who Baggini credits.
>>Oh yes, I forget the precise name of the creature breed to be eaten.
>
>A cow.
I thought Adams gave him a different name. He did talk after all.
--
Chris Townsend
writes
>>>>>>>>ultimate in cave conservation -- don't go."
>>>>>>>That's Ruskin for you.
>>>>Here he is often studied under art history (not a subject I have done).
>>>Well, he was an architecture critic.
>
>In article <p4eY+7Ar...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
>Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>And an art (painting) critic.
>
>Some, Stew Brand, Don Norman would say that they are the same thing.
Different dimensions. They are similar.
>
>
>>>You like Rod's books? He's quite a character in real life.
>>
>>I've only read Wilderness and the American Mind, which I think is
>>excellent.
>
>Which edition? 3? 2? 1?
3rd.
>You know, the 1st ed. was published in 1967; I could have really used
>that book in 1970 when we were organizing the 1st Environmental Teach-In.
>It would have saved a lot of time and sharped arguments.
>It's an awesome history book especially considering when it was
>published.
I refer to it regularly. It is awesome indeed.
>
>>>>>>Ruskin:
>>>>>>He was a thinker rather than a doer, a
>>>Ah, you are generalizing about your self. We can spot a thinker.
>>>It's the balance which is hard to achieve.
>>
>>I find the two go together. If I stop doing the thinking becomes harder
>>and slower.
>
>Iterative idea refinement.
>They are separable at a fine time difference (delta).
I always liked the idea of Wordsworth going for a walk over the fells
composing poetry and then coming home and writing it down.
>The problem these day is data overload.
>But you know that.
I do indeed.
But I do like the quick access to info.
>
>>>>>>Pathless Way
>>>See Loughman, I think. He's also in Ascent. He's a lesser seen part
>>>of the Steck-Roper crowd.
>>>
>>That puts some of what he says in Pathless Way in context. I gathered
>>from the book he spent much time in the Sierra.
>
>That's a Sierra Club problem; it has a California bias.
>
Fits with Muir.
Eugene Miya
Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>ultimate in cave conservation -- don't go."
>>>>>>>>That's Ruskin for you.
>>>>>Here he is often studied under art history (not a subject I have done).
>>>>Well, he was an architecture critic.
>>
>>Some, Stew Brand, Don Norman would say that they are the same thing.
>
>Different dimensions. They are similar.
OK. Quote database:
The problems of "art" as architectural aspiration come down to these:
Art is proudly non-functional and impractical.
Art reveres the new and despites the conventional.
Architectural art sells at a distance.
...
Art begets fashion; fashion means style;
style is made of illusion (granite veneer pretending to be solid;
facade columns pretending to hold something); and
illusion is no friend of function.
The fashion game is fun for architects to
play and diverting for the public to watch,
but it's deadly for building users.
--Stewart Brand, How Buildings Learn
Just saw him last Friday...
Don's quote is too long.
Take a look at The Psychology/Design of Everyday Things.
Part of that was motivated by a sabbatical to England.
>>>>Rod's books?
>>>Wilderness and the American Mind, which I think is excellent.
>>Which edition? 3? 2? 1?
>3rd.
Ah the Alaska addition edition.
>>You know, the 1st ed. was published in 1967; I could have really used
>>that book in 1970 when we were organizing the 1st Environmental Teach-In.
>>It would have saved a lot of time and sharped arguments.
>>It's an awesome history book especially considering when it was
>>published.
>
>I refer to it regularly. It is awesome indeed.
My 2nd ed. is extensively marked up.
I am less politically active these days.
>>>>>>>Ruskin:
>>>>>>>He was a thinker rather than a doer, a
>>>>Ah, you are generalizing about your self. We can spot a thinker.
>>>>It's the balance which is hard to achieve.
>>>I find the two go together. If I stop doing the thinking becomes harder
>>>and slower.
>>Iterative idea refinement.
>>They are separable at a fine time difference (delta).
>
>I always liked the idea of Wordsworth going for a walk over the fells
>composing poetry and then coming home and writing it down.
I debate taking the laptop. I have tried both keyboard as pen/paper
notebook. The Treo I have has a nice balance. I hope to try it in
Europe next month. Unless work is a problem for the next 2 years.
I think of the Bishop character in Aliens.
>>The problem these day is data overload.
>>But you know that.
>
>I do indeed.
>
>But I do like the quick access to info.
It depends on what it's used for. Consider
wearcam.org
>>>>>>>Pathless Way
>>>>See Loughman, I think. He's also in Ascent. He's a lesser seen part
>>>>of the Steck-Roper crowd.
>>>That puts some of what he says in Pathless Way in context. I gathered
>>>from the book he spent much time in the Sierra.
>>That's a Sierra Club problem; it has a California bias.
>>
>Fits with Muir.
You should visit his place in Martinez some time.
--
Chris Townsend
writes
>Deja vu, that strange feeling.....
>
>In article <4oLcqeB+...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
>Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>Lord of the Rings...
>>>>And before Tolkien.
>>>He would put whatever he wanted in his world.
>>
>>But unlike Lewis who mixed Greek, Roman, Norse and Christian figures and
>>stories (the Ice Queen, fauns, Aslan/Jesus) Tolkien set out to create a
>>coherent world based on Germanic mythology (Anglo-Saxon and Norse). He
>>felt that England needed a mythology of its own and set out to create
>>one.
>
>I think NPR implied that LOTR came first (actually Hobbit).
>The Mixing came later.
The Hobbit came much earlier. Late 30s.
>
>My friends point out that Oxfrod's dark Nationalist Socialist secret was
>Hitler's plan to make Oxford New London had he conquerored the British Isles.
I didn't know that.
>
>
>>>>>>Harry Potter is, I think, patchy. The third one is the best. The latest
>>>>>>film is pretty good.
>>>>I think the plot is stronger in the 3rd book and the atmosphere is
>>>>darker and more serious. This comes out in the film too. The 4th and 5th
>>>>books are too big and baggy and could do with editing. There are good
>>>>stories in there but too much other stuff.
>>>Does it have to be dark and serious to be better?
>>
>>Not necessarily. But the first two are very much light children's books
>>with potentially dark and serious subjects and moments backed away from.
>
>I thought that was the point of the first 2 and the later more recent
>ones being for adolescence......
Certainly the books should develop in tone as the protagonists get older
but there is a big jump between books two and three.
>
>Bilbo as a Hobbit wasn't very deep either.
Another children's book.
>Sometimes too much is made of depth.
Of course. As children's books the first two Harry Potters are fine,
certainly as good as the Narnia books though not as good as The Hobbit.
>But then there is the issue of history....
History of?
>
>
>>>Again, Watson isn't here about the whole lit. community insisting on
>>>moody pieces to make great works of literature.
>>Hamlet rather A Midsummer Night's Dream. I don't go along with that.
>
>"George Lucas in Love...."
>
>>>the UK was a small place and you guys all knew each other.
>>
>>Scotland seems a bit like that! As does the outdoor world. At an annual
>>trekking company party (KE - for whom I lead occasionally) down south in
>>the English Lake District I met another leader who I had first met in
>>Kathmandu and discovered she lives ten miles from me.
>
>I need to check bait in c.s.s. (another group.)
>Nick responded that he had a fan come up to him in Seattle and say
>"You really do exist." I have to find his collection of conference bootie.
>
>>>I just found out (Dave Roberts knows Rick Millikan who is one of
>>>Mallory's grand kids). I just met Rick last year and have been meaning
>>>to as Roberts for a reprint.
>>I went to the conference where the reconstruction of Mallory's clothing
>>was unveiled back in September. Interesting stuff. It was better than
>>anyone guessed.
>
>Yeah, I think I told you Rick think's his grand Dad made summitted.
His clothing wouldn't have stopped him.
>
>Now calling Mr. Irvine....
>
>>>Over time, my opinions of Asimov has tarnish a bit, but he's OK.
>>>The Silicon Valley is a comparatively small community among the tech types.
>>
>>I haven't read any Asimov for decades.
>
>Actually I think Asimov's intellectual descendents may be more topics.
>Orson Scott Card, Neal Stephenson (fun friend), Kim Stan Robinson (just
>in the area, but didn't go see him, he's not far away).
I read a Neal Stephenson many years ago and there is a current one lying
round the house I haven't picked up yet. Part of a trilogy I think.
>
>>>>We both like travelling.
>>>We are on similar wavelengths.
>>On some things :-). I'm not a scientist.
>
>That's just the day job.
I don't have a day job :-)
>
>>>>>>Julian Baggini's The Pig That Wants To Be Eaten is entertaining and
>>>>>>thought provoking.
>>>>100 thought experiments of various kinds (not all moral/ethical ones).
>>>Gedanken-experiments are overrated.
>>>Realexperiments, real observations need to be taken.
>>
>>Baggini is a philosopher.
>
>A strike against him.
Maybe. He writes some interesting stuff in newspapers and increasingly
appears on the radio.
The book does provoke thinking.
>
>>Some of the experiments are rather artificial.
>
>Artifical or contrived?
Both
>
>>>>The title comes from Douglas Adams of course - who Baggini credits.
>>>Oh yes, I forget the precise name of the creature breed to be eaten.
>>
>>A cow.
>
>I thought Adams gave him a different name. He did talk after all.
>
I'd have to look it up.
Chris Townsend
writes
>In article <Cfqi3OL5...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
>Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>ultimate in cave conservation -- don't go."
>>>>>>>>>That's Ruskin for you.
>>>>>>Here he is often studied under art history (not a subject I have done).
>>>>>Well, he was an architecture critic.
>>>>And an art (painting) critic.
>>>
>>>Some, Stew Brand, Don Norman would say that they are the same thing.
>>
>>Different dimensions. They are similar.
>
>OK. Quote database:
>
>The problems of "art" as architectural aspiration come down to these:
> Art is proudly non-functional and impractical.
> Art reveres the new and despites the conventional.
> Architectural art sells at a distance.
>...
>Art begets fashion; fashion means style;
>style is made of illusion (granite veneer pretending to be solid;
>facade columns pretending to hold something); and
>illusion is no friend of function.
>The fashion game is fun for architects to
>play and diverting for the public to watch,
>but it's deadly for building users.
> --Stewart Brand, How Buildings Learn
Good quote. We see that here with all the 60s concrete brutalism
buildings. Ugly to look at, difficult to use and horrible to live in.
There's the problem of whether architecture should be art or craft. It
needs to combine aesthetics with practicality.
The new Scottish Parliament building does this well. I really like it.
>
>Just saw him last Friday...
>
>Don's quote is too long.
>
>Take a look at The Psychology/Design of Everyday Things.
>Part of that was motivated by a sabbatical to England.
>
>
>>>>>Rod's books?
>>>>Wilderness and the American Mind, which I think is excellent.
>>>Which edition? 3? 2? 1?
>>3rd.
>
>Ah the Alaska addition edition.
Yes. I believe there is a 4th now.
>
>
>>>You know, the 1st ed. was published in 1967; I could have really used
>>>that book in 1970 when we were organizing the 1st Environmental Teach-In.
>>>It would have saved a lot of time and sharped arguments.
>>>It's an awesome history book especially considering when it was
>>>published.
>>
>>I refer to it regularly. It is awesome indeed.
>
>My 2nd ed. is extensively marked up.
> I am less politically active these days.
I mostly use it for references for my writing. For political work in
Scotland it's not that relevant (though Muir is useful due to the work
of the John Muir Trust).
>
>>>>>>>>Ruskin:
>>>>>>>>He was a thinker rather than a doer, a
>>>>>Ah, you are generalizing about your self. We can spot a thinker.
>>>>>It's the balance which is hard to achieve.
>>>>I find the two go together. If I stop doing the thinking becomes harder
>>>>and slower.
>>>Iterative idea refinement.
>>>They are separable at a fine time difference (delta).
>>
>>I always liked the idea of Wordsworth going for a walk over the fells
>>composing poetry and then coming home and writing it down.
>
>I debate taking the laptop. I have tried both keyboard as pen/paper
>notebook. The Treo I have has a nice balance. I hope to try it in
>Europe next month. Unless work is a problem for the next 2 years.
I tried a Psion a few years ago. The keyboard was too small for my
fingers and I hated the prodding thing. I'm back on pen/notebook when in
the wilds.
>
>I think of the Bishop character in Aliens.
>
>
>>>The problem these day is data overload.
>>>But you know that.
>>
>>I do indeed.
>>
>>But I do like the quick access to info.
>
>It depends on what it's used for. Consider
> wearcam.org
I'll look that one up.
How fast you can assess and process info is important.
>
>>>>>>>>Pathless Way
>>>>>See Loughman, I think. He's also in Ascent. He's a lesser seen part
>>>>>of the Steck-Roper crowd.
>>>>That puts some of what he says in Pathless Way in context. I gathered
>>>>from the book he spent much time in the Sierra.
>>>That's a Sierra Club problem; it has a California bias.
>>>
>>Fits with Muir.
>
>You should visit his place in Martinez some time.
>
I did a few years ago. Caught the train there from Salt Lake City.
I liked the lack of curtains and the new post earthquake fireplace so he
could have a real fire.
Ed Huesers
>> I debate taking the laptop. I have tried both keyboard as pen/paper
>> notebook. The Treo I have has a nice balance. I hope to try it in
>> Europe next month. Unless work is a problem for the next 2 years.
Chris Townsend wrote:
> I tried a Psion a few years ago. The keyboard was too small for my
> fingers and I hated the prodding thing. I'm back on pen/notebook when in
> the wilds.
What ya tink of dat pen? I'm sure you are using it more than I am mine.
> How fast you can assess and process info is important.
I tend to go for comprehsion and it slows me a bit.
Ed Huesers
http://www.grandshelters.com
Chris Townsend
<e...@grandshelters.com> writes
>> Eugene Miya writes
>>> I debate taking the laptop. I have tried both keyboard as pen/paper
>>> notebook. The Treo I have has a nice balance. I hope to try it in
>>> Europe next month. Unless work is a problem for the next 2 years.
>
>Chris Townsend wrote:
>> I tried a Psion a few years ago. The keyboard was too small for my
>>fingers and I hated the prodding thing. I'm back on pen/notebook when
>>in the wilds.
>
> What ya tink of dat pen? I'm sure you are using it more than I am mine.
It's excellent. But difficult to put together with cold fingers and a
mind dulled by high altitude!
I have used it a fair bit and I do like it.
>
>> How fast you can assess and process info is important.
>
> I tend to go for comprehsion and it slows me a bit.
That is one of the problems.
I regard comprehension as the key. Assessing is comprehending whether
the info looks worth considering or not, processing is understanding the
info if it is worth considering.
A bit of snow here a few weeks ago but it's all gone now.
Ed Huesers
> In message <B1Kof.54$44....@news.uswest.net>, Ed Huesers
> <e...@grandshelters.com> writes
>
>>> Eugene Miya writes
>>>
>>>> I debate taking the laptop. I have tried both keyboard as pen/paper
>>>> notebook. The Treo I have has a nice balance. I hope to try it in
>>>> Europe next month. Unless work is a problem for the next 2 years.
>>
>>
>> Chris Townsend wrote:
>>
>>> I tried a Psion a few years ago. The keyboard was too small for my
>>> fingers and I hated the prodding thing. I'm back on pen/notebook when
>>> in the wilds.
> Ed Huesers writes:
>> What ya tink of dat pen?
Chris Townsend wrote:
> It's excellent. But difficult to put together with cold fingers and a
> mind dulled by high altitude!
The next model is a pop out, I think he's considering the cold.
> I have used it a fair bit and I do like it.
Handy, I've had one attached to each of my packs for the last year
now and haven't lost one yet.
>>> How fast you can assess and process info is important.
>> I tend to go for comprehsion and it slows me a bit.
> That is one of the problems.
>
> I regard comprehension as the key.
Yep, understanding the point being made and how it was derived.
> Assessing is comprehending whether
> the info looks worth considering or not
If it hooks up to what is already there, then it is interesting and
draws me. Once in a while some obscure bit will fall into place but it's
more fruitful to build.
> processing is understanding the
> info if it is worth considering.
A lot has to be brushed over when it's a repete but finding the
treats can be rewarding.
> A bit of snow here a few weeks ago but it's all gone now.
Going up tomorrow into the best conditions I've seen since...
Had a recent order from your neighborhood.
Ed Huesers
Http://www.grandshelters.com
Chris Townsend
>
>> In message <B1Kof.54$44....@news.uswest.net>, Ed Huesers
>><e...@grandshelters.com> writes
>>
>>>> Eugene Miya writes
>>>>
>>>>> I debate taking the laptop. I have tried both keyboard as pen/paper
>>>>> notebook. The Treo I have has a nice balance. I hope to try it in
>>>>> Europe next month. Unless work is a problem for the next 2 years.
>>>
>>>
>>> Chris Townsend wrote:
>>>
>>>> I tried a Psion a few years ago. The keyboard was too small for my
>>>>fingers and I hated the prodding thing. I'm back on pen/notebook
>>>>when in the wilds.
>
>> Ed Huesers writes:
>>> What ya tink of dat pen?
>
>Chris Townsend wrote:
>> It's excellent. But difficult to put together with cold fingers and a
>>mind dulled by high altitude!
>
> The next model is a pop out, I think he's considering the cold.
Good.
>
>> I have used it a fair bit and I do like it.
>
> Handy, I've had one attached to each of my packs for the last year
>now and haven't lost one yet.
I haven't lost it yet. It lives in a small stuffsack with my notebook.
>
>>>> How fast you can assess and process info is important.
>>> I tend to go for comprehsion and it slows me a bit.
>> That is one of the problems.
>> I regard comprehension as the key.
>
> Yep, understanding the point being made and how it was derived.
>
>> Assessing is comprehending whether the info looks worth considering
>>or not
>
> If it hooks up to what is already there, then it is interesting and
>draws me. Once in a while some obscure bit will fall into place but
>it's more fruitful to build.
>
>> processing is understanding the info if it is worth considering.
>
> A lot has to be brushed over when it's a repete but finding the
>treats can be rewarding.
Indeed. Gold amongst dross.
>
>> A bit of snow here a few weeks ago but it's all gone now.
>
> Going up tomorrow into the best conditions I've seen since...
The high tops are white again but a slow thaw at present.
> Had a recent order from your neighborhood.
Interesting. I wonder if I know them.
Eugene Miya
Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <W7Mof.60$44....@news.uswest.net>, Ed Huesers
><e...@grandshelters.com> writes
The X-mas card will be delayed, guys, a bit.
>>> In message <B1Kof.54$44....@news.uswest.net>, Ed Huesers
>>><e...@grandshelters.com> writes
>>>>> Eugene Miya writes
>>>>>> I debate taking the laptop. I have tried both keyboard as pen/paper
>>>>>> notebook. The Treo I have has a nice balance. I hope to try it in
>>>>>> Europe next month. Unless work is a problem for the next 2 years.
Chris Townsend wrote:
>>>>> I tried a Psion a few years ago. The keyboard was too small for my
>>>>>fingers and I hated the prodding thing. I'm back on pen/notebook
>>>>>when in the wilds.
Ed Huesers writes:
>>>> What ya tink of dat pen?
Chris Townsend wrote:
>>> It's excellent. But difficult to put together with cold fingers and a
>>>mind dulled by high altitude!
>>
>> The next model is a pop out, I think he's considering the cold.
>
>Good.
There are pen computers. They need a bit more work. I have to take a
closer look at MacWorld next month.
>>> I have used it a fair bit and I do like it.
>>
>> Handy, I've had one attached to each of my packs for the last year
>>now and haven't lost one yet.
>
>I haven't lost it yet. It lives in a small stuffsack with my notebook.
Well, while I used pens and pencils on Rite-in-the-rain pads, editing
after the fact is made easier have the ASCII initially.
>>>>> How fast you can assess and process info is important.
>>>> I tend to go for comprehsion and it slows me a bit.
Smal dig. cameras help a bit.
>>> That is one of the problems.
>>> I regard comprehension as the key.
Remember this. It's key.
>> Yep, understanding the point being made and how it was derived.
>>> Assessing is comprehending whether the info looks worth considering
>>>or not
>> If it hooks up to what is already there, then it is interesting and
>>draws me. Once in a while some obscure bit will fall into place but
>>it's more fruitful to build.
>>> processing is understanding the info if it is worth considering.
>> A lot has to be brushed over when it's a repete but finding the
>>treats can be rewarding.
>
>Indeed. Gold amongst dross.
I've not convinced at data mining just yet.
>>> A bit of snow here a few weeks ago but it's all gone now.
>> Going up tomorrow into the best conditions I've seen since...
>The high tops are white again but a slow thaw at present.
More on the way.
--
Chris Townsend
writes
>In article <NlJnfcBV...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
>Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>In message <W7Mof.60$44....@news.uswest.net>, Ed Huesers
>><e...@grandshelters.com> writes
>
>>>>> What ya tink of dat pen?
>
>Chris Townsend wrote:
>>>> It's excellent. But difficult to put together with cold fingers and a
>>>>mind dulled by high altitude!
>>>
>>> The next model is a pop out, I think he's considering the cold.
>>
>>Good.
>
>There are pen computers. They need a bit more work. I have to take a
>closer look at MacWorld next month.
Pen computers?
>
>
>>>> I have used it a fair bit and I do like it.
>>>
>>> Handy, I've had one attached to each of my packs for the last year
>>>now and haven't lost one yet.
>>
>>I haven't lost it yet. It lives in a small stuffsack with my notebook.
>
>Well, while I used pens and pencils on Rite-in-the-rain pads, editing
>after the fact is made easier have the ASCII initially.
Editing is when I transfer info to the computer. I keep the originals. I
have a shelf of notebooks. Rite-In-The-Rain pads are okay in the rain
but I prefer bound paper notebooks with waterproof covers.
>
>>>>>> How fast you can assess and process info is important.
>>>>> I tend to go for comprehsion and it slows me a bit.
>
>Smal dig. cameras help a bit.
I'm looking for one of those. The Ricoh GR Digital looks good.
>
>>>> That is one of the problems.
>>>> I regard comprehension as the key.
> Remember this. It's key.
Exactly.
>>> Yep, understanding the point being made and how it was derived.
>>>> Assessing is comprehending whether the info looks worth considering
>>>>or not
>>> If it hooks up to what is already there, then it is interesting and
>>>draws me. Once in a while some obscure bit will fall into place but
>>>it's more fruitful to build.
>>>> processing is understanding the info if it is worth considering.
>>> A lot has to be brushed over when it's a repete but finding the
>>>treats can be rewarding.
>>
>>Indeed. Gold amongst dross.
>
>I've not convinced at data mining just yet.
There has to be a way to sort out the worthwhile from the worthless or
irrelevant.
>
>
>>>> A bit of snow here a few weeks ago but it's all gone now.
>>> Going up tomorrow into the best conditions I've seen since...
>>The high tops are white again but a slow thaw at present.
>
>More on the way.
>
Hopefully. You never know here.
Alfred Falk
> Deja vu, that strange feeling.....
>
> In article <4oLcqeB+...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
> Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>Lord of the Rings...
>>>>And before Tolkien.
>>>He would put whatever he wanted in his world.
>>
>>But unlike Lewis who mixed Greek, Roman, Norse and Christian figures
>>and stories (the Ice Queen, fauns, Aslan/Jesus) Tolkien set out to
>>create a coherent world based on Germanic mythology (Anglo-Saxon and
>>Norse). He felt that England needed a mythology of its own and set
>>out to create one.
>
> I think NPR implied that LOTR came first (actually Hobbit).
> The Mixing came later.
The Hobbit was published in the 3O's and well-received. LOTR started
off as a sequel to the The Hobbit. However the story went somewhere
else after the first chapter. (Compare the writing style of Chapter 1,
with all the rest. Interesting exercise: read the first and last
chapters of FOTR without the stuff between.)
What JRRT really wanted was to publish the Silmarillion. That never
really happened, in part because he never finished it. The publishers
wanted a Hobbit sequel.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------
A L B E R T A Alfred Falk fa...@arc.ab.ca
R E S E A R C H Information Systems Dept (780)450-5185
C O U N C I L 250 Karl Clark Road
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
http://www.arc.ab.ca/ T6N 1E4
http://www.arc.ab.ca/staff/falk/
Eugene Miya
>>closer look at MacWorld next month.
>
>Pen computers?
Yes, several. The only one I have has 256 KB, does OCR, mostly for
things like business cards, but can do quoting. Several others record
strokes (just coordinates, attempts at hand writing recognition, etc.
They can in some cases reproduce sketeches, and what not.
>Editing is when I transfer info to the computer. I keep the originals. I
>have a shelf of notebooks. Rite-In-The-Rain pads are okay in the rain
>but I prefer bound paper notebooks with waterproof covers.
JL Darling makes those: bound notebooks, copier paper, etc.
I took a photo of a friend's office in the field exactly for this reason
showing her collection of field notebooks. Stanford Bio students can
get paid $45 to use some of this hardware for enthographic reasons.
>>>>>>> How fast you can assess and process info is important.
>>>>>> I tend to go for comprehsion and it slows me a bit.
>>Smal dig. cameras help a bit.
>
>I'm looking for one of those. The Ricoh GR Digital looks good.
I've got a Treo for some of this.
Small cameras can provide context.
We have seen how phone camera changed news since the Madrid and London
bombings and transformer explosions in SF.
>>>>> That is one of the problems.
>>>>> I regard comprehension as the key.
>> Remember this. It's key.
>
>Exactly.
It is important to always keep that in mind.
>>>> Yep, understanding the point being made and how it was derived.
>>>>> Assessing is comprehending whether the info looks worth considering
>>>>>or not
>>>Indeed. Gold amongst dross.
>>
>>I've not convinced at data mining just yet.
>
>There has to be a way to sort out the worthwhile from the worthless or
>irrelevant.
Education.
Machines can't do this yet.
Many people can't do this.
It is certainly much harder to do it on the fly.
To degrees, Amazon, and eBay do some of this.
This is part of why heads of state use intelligence organziations.
>>>>> A bit of snow here a few weeks ago but it's all gone now.
>>>> Going up tomorrow into the best conditions I've seen since...
>>>The high tops are white again but a slow thaw at present.
>>More on the way.
>>
>Hopefully. You never know here.
I just want it to dump in Europe, the Alps.
I have to get tickets soon.
--
Eugene Miya
In article <Xns97318045B7...@198.161.157.145>,
Alfred Falk <fa...@arc.REMOVE.ab.ca> wrote:
>The Hobbit was published in the 3O's and well-received. LOTR started
>off as a sequel to the The Hobbit. However the story went somewhere
>else after the first chapter. (Compare the writing style of Chapter 1,
>with all the rest. Interesting exercise: read the first and last
>chapters of FOTR without the stuff between.)
Oh yes, I noted that.
I suspect that's why Frodo makes the journal instead of Bilbo.
I read them in close succession, so I would talk to my friend Suzie (she
was the Club Secretary/Treasurer [as a frosh, too]). That was water
under the bridge, thus allowing them to go to the Grey Havens.
>What JRRT really wanted was to publish the Silmarillion. That never
>really happened, in part because he never finished it. The publishers
>wanted a Hobbit sequel.
I suspect the publishers still want the sequel. ;^)
I think this is where Chomsky and his language work would start to come in.
I never bothered to read the Sil*.
--
------------ And now a word from our sponsor ------------------
Want to have instant messaging, and chat rooms, and discussion
groups for your local users or business, you need dbabble!
-- See http://netwinsite.com/sponsor/sponsor_dbabble.htm ----
Chris Townsend
writes
>In article <ddPjxNDN...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
>Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> What ya tink of dat pen?
>>>
>>>There are pen computers. They need a bit more work. I have to take a
>>>closer look at MacWorld next month.
>>
>>Pen computers?
>
>Yes, several. The only one I have has 256 KB, does OCR, mostly for
>things like business cards, but can do quoting. Several others record
>strokes (just coordinates, attempts at hand writing recognition, etc.
>They can in some cases reproduce sketeches, and what not.
A bit of technology that has passed me by, somehow.
>
>>Editing is when I transfer info to the computer. I keep the originals. I
>>have a shelf of notebooks. Rite-In-The-Rain pads are okay in the rain
>>but I prefer bound paper notebooks with waterproof covers.
>
>JL Darling makes those: bound notebooks, copier paper, etc.
>I took a photo of a friend's office in the field exactly for this reason
>showing her collection of field notebooks. Stanford Bio students can
>get paid $45 to use some of this hardware for enthographic reasons.
I use Alwych notebooks with All Weather covers, produced in Scotland.
>
>
>>>>>>>> How fast you can assess and process info is important.
>>>>>>> I tend to go for comprehsion and it slows me a bit.
>>>Smal dig. cameras help a bit.
>>
>>I'm looking for one of those. The Ricoh GR Digital looks good.
>
>I've got a Treo for some of this.
>Small cameras can provide context.
>We have seen how phone camera changed news since the Madrid and London
>bombings and transformer explosions in SF.
And the recent oil depot explosions in southern England.
>
>
>>>>>> That is one of the problems.
>>>>>> I regard comprehension as the key.
>>> Remember this. It's key.
>>
>>Exactly.
>
>It is important to always keep that in mind.
Certainly is. It's all too easy to absorb data without comprehending it.
>
>
>>>>> Yep, understanding the point being made and how it was derived.
>>>>>> Assessing is comprehending whether the info looks worth considering
>>>>>>or not
>>>>Indeed. Gold amongst dross.
>>>
>>>I've not convinced at data mining just yet.
>>
>>There has to be a way to sort out the worthwhile from the worthless or
>>irrelevant.
>
>Education.
Agreed.
>Machines can't do this yet.
>Many people can't do this.
>It is certainly much harder to do it on the fly.
>To degrees, Amazon, and eBay do some of this.
>This is part of why heads of state use intelligence organziations.
Then you have to comprehend the data provided by the intelligence
organizations.
Saw the Narnia film on Saturday. At one point there's a close up shot of
a document signed by the Chief of Secret Police.
>
>>>>>> A bit of snow here a few weeks ago but it's all gone now.
>>>>> Going up tomorrow into the best conditions I've seen since...
>>>>The high tops are white again but a slow thaw at present.
>>>More on the way.
>>>
>>Hopefully. You never know here.
>
>I just want it to dump in Europe, the Alps.
>I have to get tickets soon.
>
I believe parts of the Alps have plenty of snow already.
Ed Huesers
>>>> What ya tink of dat pen?
>> Chris Townsend wrote:
>>> It's excellent. But difficult to put together with cold fingers and a
>>> mind dulled by high altitude!
> Ed Huesers writes:
>> The next model is a pop out, I think he's considering the cold.
Chris Townsend wrote:
> Good.
The distributors keep telling him that he needs a more expensive
one. Marketing...
>> Handy, I've had one attached to each of my packs for the last year
>> now and haven't lost one yet.
> I haven't lost it yet. It lives in a small stuffsack with my notebook.
You must have a better memory than I. I like the quick draw feature
of having it on my chest strap. Of course, I'm trying to push it to see
if I lose it and it hasn't happened yet.
>> A lot has to be brushed over when it's a repete but finding the
>> treats can be rewarding.
> Indeed. Gold amongst dross.
Powder amongst windblown.
>>> A bit of snow here a few weeks ago but it's all gone now.
>> Going up tomorrow into the best conditions I've seen since...
> The high tops are white again but a slow thaw at present.
A friend that has been coming for the last five years started to
believe me when I was saying "and this is how it used to be". He's
impressed.
It was snowing when we left and it looks to still be coming down at
altitude.
>> Had a recent order from your neighborhood.
> Interesting. I wonder if I know them.
They didn't mention it and I didn't ask. Been to busy lately to take
care of it all.
Ed Huesers
Http://www.grandshelters.com
Martin Thornquist
> I never bothered to read the Sil*.
There are several great stories in The Silmarillion (Beren and
Lúthien, Turin Turambar and the fall of Númenor comes to mind), and
lots of stuff for those of us who enjoy mythology. A far heavier read
than LOTR though. The other books where Christopher Tolkien digs in
his father's never-intended-to-be-published notes are less than
stellar, I'm sorry I ever read Lost Stories vol. 1.
Martin
--
"An ideal world is left as an exercise to the reader."
-Paul Graham, On Lisp
pmhilton
Martin Thornquist wrote:
> [ Eugene Miya ]
>
>
>>I never bothered to read the Sil*.
>
>
> There are several great stories in The Silmarillion (Beren and
> Lúthien, Turin Turambar and the fall of Númenor comes to mind), and
> lots of stuff for those of us who enjoy mythology. A far heavier read
> than LOTR though. The other books where Christopher Tolkien digs in
> his father's never-intended-to-be-published notes are less than
> stellar, I'm sorry I ever read Lost Stories vol. 1.
I second the motion. What Tolkien published he wished read. (I do not
care for Mr. Bliss or I-foget-the-title regarding a dog) but Hobbit &
TLOTR are enough pleasure for rereading fairly often & to firmly make
Tolkien's reputation beyond his scholarly work. I have found the
Silmarillion very sloggy reading except in parts - shows need for polish
interrupted by Old Man Time. Have had similar feeling of wading through
mud w/ both vols of Lost Tales.
A parallel situation is the series of "prequels" to Dune put out by
Herbert's son & a collaborator. The original novel was a monster in its
class and the remainder of the series are quite good (in my opinion the
quality tails off as the series progresses) but the followups are nearly
unreadable - and emminently forgettable.
Pete H
--
The universe is largely unexplored.
NPR News item
Chris Townsend
<e...@grandshelters.com> writes
>>>> Ed Huesers writes:
>>>>> What ya tink of dat pen?
>
>>> Chris Townsend wrote:
>>>> It's excellent. But difficult to put together with cold fingers and
>>>>a mind dulled by high altitude!
>
>> Ed Huesers writes:
>>> The next model is a pop out, I think he's considering the cold.
>
>Chris Townsend wrote:
>> Good.
>
> The distributors keep telling him that he needs a more expensive
>one. Marketing...
As long as its useful as well...
>
>>> Handy, I've had one attached to each of my packs for the last year
>>>now and haven't lost one yet.
>
>> I haven't lost it yet. It lives in a small stuffsack with my notebook.
>
> You must have a better memory than I. I like the quick draw feature
>of having it on my chest strap. Of course, I'm trying to push it to see
>if I lose it and it hasn't happened yet.
Notebooks and pens are essential to my work so I take great care of
them. I lose and mislay other things instead - knives, head lamps,
socks.
>
>>> A lot has to be brushed over when it's a repete but finding the
>>>treats can be rewarding.
>
>> Indeed. Gold amongst dross.
>
> Powder amongst windblown.
I like it :-)
Rarer here than gold.
>
>>>> A bit of snow here a few weeks ago but it's all gone now.
>>> Going up tomorrow into the best conditions I've seen since...
>> The high tops are white again but a slow thaw at present.
>
> A friend that has been coming for the last five years started to
>believe me when I was saying "and this is how it used to be". He's
>impressed.
> It was snowing when we left and it looks to still be coming down at
>altitude.
The thaw has speeded up here and the hills are mostly brown.
>
>>> Had a recent order from your neighborhood.
>> Interesting. I wonder if I know them.
>
> They didn't mention it and I didn't ask. Been to busy lately to take
>care of it all.
I'll look out for igloos.
--
Chris Townsend
Eugene Miya
Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>Pen computers?
>
>A bit of technology that has passed me by, somehow.
They have not passed you yet. They are still developing.
I would not say that they have caught on just yet.
Children are more likely to have seen these (rich kids).
They have to deal with power and memory limitations.
>>>Rite-In-The-Rain
>>JL Darling makes those:
>
>I use Alwych notebooks with All Weather covers, produced in Scotland.
Local business.
>>>>>>>>> How fast you can assess and process info is important.
>>>>>>>> I tend to go for comprehsion
>>Small cameras can provide context.
>>We have seen how phone camera changed news since the Madrid and London
>>bombings and transformer explosions in SF.
>
>And the recent oil depot explosions in southern England.
We've seen a little of that here. Lots gets edited in news.
Time passes. Me passing thru Madrid and London in the past year
I can related more a bit to the IRA and ETA.
>>>>>>> That is one of the problems.
>>>>>>> I regard comprehension as the key.
>>It is important to always keep that in mind.
>Certainly is. It's all too easy to absorb data without comprehending it.
People are attempting to rely on unknown mechanisms for info
assimilation. They may, or they might not, exist.
>>>>>> Yep, understanding the point being made and how it was derived.
>>>>>>> Assessing is comprehending whether the info looks worth considering
>>>>>>>or not
>>>>>Indeed. Gold amongst dross.
>>>>I've not convinced at data mining just yet.
>>>There has to be a way to sort out the worthwhile from the worthless or
>>>irrelevant.
>>Education.
>Agreed.
Deja vu..... that funny....
>>Machines can't do this yet.
>>Many people can't do this.
>>It is certainly much harder to do it on the fly.
>>To degrees, Amazon, and eBay do some of this.
>>This is part of why heads of state use intelligence organziations.
>
>Then you have to comprehend the data provided by the intelligence
>organizations.
If you are a head of state.... (a man's home is his castle... [a Crusade
phrase if I have ever heard one]).
Your interpretation will depend on your values, your priorities.
A Navigator might be able to tell you where you are, and where you are
going on the short term. You have to set the course.
This says nothing about time pressure.
>Saw the Narnia film on Saturday. At one point there's a close up shot of
>a document signed by the Chief of Secret Police.
Mr. Churchill set that up?
One can have fun with DVDs stopping and examining such scenes
(I did this most recently with the Matrix 2 film: the traffic signs
are supposed to be near me (US101/I280/I580)).
I am still debating whether to wait for the DVD or us a theater.
One friend wants a film, but I am not certain which one.
>>>>>>> A bit of snow here a few weeks ago but it's all gone now.
>>I just want it to dump in Europe, the Alps.
>>I have to get tickets soon.
>>
>I believe parts of the Alps have plenty of snow already.
Italy. [just saw the Globetrekker program on the N part, but I plan to
avoid Venice and Torino]
Austria [where?....., relatives of a friend? where another friend once
lived {very expensive}, etc.]
The Swiss: that's bordering on work. I will have fun but there's
Diplomacy involved there.
--
Eugene Miya
Martin Thornquist <marti...@ifi.uio.no> wrote:
>There are several great stories in The Silmarillion (Beren and
> -Paul Graham
Ironically Martin, I would rather read Paul Graham these days,
not that I particularly admire him.
--
Eugene Miya
Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Notebooks and pens are essential to my work so I take great care of
>them. I lose and mislay other things instead - knives, head lamps,
I just briefly misplaced Dave Robert's new autobiography which I want
to finish. I'll pick it up Friday.
--
Chris Townsend
writes
>In article <pAA+GeAx...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
>Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>Pen computers?
>>
>>A bit of technology that has passed me by, somehow.
>
>They have not passed you yet. They are still developing.
>I would not say that they have caught on just yet.
>Children are more likely to have seen these (rich kids).
>They have to deal with power and memory limitations.
>
iPods and camera phones are the popular products here. I own neither.
>
>>>>Rite-In-The-Rain
>>>JL Darling makes those:
>>
>>I use Alwych notebooks with All Weather covers, produced in Scotland.
>
>Local business.
Yes. Though that's not why I first bought one many years ago.
>
>
>>>>>>>>>> How fast you can assess and process info is important.
>>>>>>>>> I tend to go for comprehsion
>>>Small cameras can provide context.
>>>We have seen how phone camera changed news since the Madrid and London
>>>bombings and transformer explosions in SF.
>>
>>And the recent oil depot explosions in southern England.
>
>We've seen a little of that here. Lots gets edited in news.
>Time passes. Me passing thru Madrid and London in the past year
>I can related more a bit to the IRA and ETA.
The oil depot explosions vanished from the news here after a few days.
Northern Ireland is in the news again. A key senior figure in Shin Fein
has turned out to have been a British spy for the last 20 years.
>
>
>>>>>>>> That is one of the problems.
>>>>>>>> I regard comprehension as the key.
>>>It is important to always keep that in mind.
>>Certainly is. It's all too easy to absorb data without comprehending it.
>
>People are attempting to rely on unknown mechanisms for info
>assimilation. They may, or they might not, exist.
I rely on my eyes and brain.
>
>>>>>>> Yep, understanding the point being made and how it was derived.
>>>>>>>> Assessing is comprehending whether the info looks worth considering
>>>>>>>>or not
>>>>>>Indeed. Gold amongst dross.
>>>>>I've not convinced at data mining just yet.
>>>>There has to be a way to sort out the worthwhile from the worthless or
>>>>irrelevant.
>>>Education.
>>Agreed.
>
>Deja vu..... that funny....
>
>>>Machines can't do this yet.
>>>Many people can't do this.
>>>It is certainly much harder to do it on the fly.
>>>To degrees, Amazon, and eBay do some of this.
>>>This is part of why heads of state use intelligence organziations.
>>
>>Then you have to comprehend the data provided by the intelligence
>>organizations.
>
>If you are a head of state.... (a man's home is his castle... [a Crusade
>phrase if I have ever heard one]).
>Your interpretation will depend on your values, your priorities.
Which may mean that you know how you will interpret whatever the
intelligence says, rendering it useless except as a back up to what you
planned anyway.
>A Navigator might be able to tell you where you are, and where you are
>going on the short term. You have to set the course.
Assuming you really are in control.
>This says nothing about time pressure.
Which might be a reason why you aren't fully in control.
>
>>Saw the Narnia film on Saturday. At one point there's a close up shot of
>>a document signed by the Chief of Secret Police.
>
>Mr. Churchill set that up?
It's in the book, published in 1950.
I rather think Stalin was the cause.
>One can have fun with DVDs stopping and examining such scenes
>(I did this most recently with the Matrix 2 film: the traffic signs
>are supposed to be near me (US101/I280/I580)).
I've enjoyed trying to place all the Scottish Highland scenes in the
Harry Potter films.
>
>I am still debating whether to wait for the DVD or us a theater.
>One friend wants a film, but I am not certain which one.
Four of us split up at the cinema - two to Narnia, two to King Kong.
I'd like to see KK soon.
Narnia isn't like LOTR. It doesn't really need a huge screen.
>
>>>>>>>> A bit of snow here a few weeks ago but it's all gone now.
>>>I just want it to dump in Europe, the Alps.
>>>I have to get tickets soon.
>>>
>>I believe parts of the Alps have plenty of snow already.
>
>Italy. [just saw the Globetrekker program on the N part, but I plan to
>avoid Venice and Torino]
>Austria [where?....., relatives of a friend? where another friend once
>lived {very expensive}, etc.]
>The Swiss: that's bordering on work. I will have fun but there's
>Diplomacy involved there.
>
Reports today of further heavy snow in the Alps.
Thawing here ....
Eugene Miya
>
>iPods and camera phones are the popular products here. I own neither.
Well, this is the home of the iPod. I don't need one.
I am amazed that I ever tried a Walkman. I don't really take either
except on the longest trips. But these are newer generation toys
taken by the younger generation. But my old 80 yr. old officemate has
an iPod, but he listens to classical music.
Camera are just cheap now for phones.
>>>>>Rite-In-The-Rain
>>>>JL Darling makes those:
>>>Alwych notebooks with All Weather covers, produced in Scotland.
>>Local business.
>Yes. Though that's not why I first bought one many years ago.
Available product?
>>>>>>>>>>> How fast you can assess and process info is important.
>>>>>>>>>> I tend to go for comprehsion
>>>>Small cameras can provide context.
>>>>We have seen how phone camera changed news since the Madrid and London
>>>>bombings and transformer explosions in SF.
>>>And the recent oil depot explosions in southern England.
>>We've seen a little of that here. Lots gets edited in news.
>
>The oil depot explosions vanished from the news here after a few days.
A friend grew up in the HH area.
>Northern Ireland is in the news again. A key senior figure in Shin Fein
>has turned out to have been a British spy for the last 20 years.
That's common. A similar thing happened in the US during the Vietnam war.
Here on Public boradcasting, our man Steves is promoting Northern
Ireland travel. Dollars coming their way.
>>>>>>>>> comprehension as key.
>>>all too easy to absorb data without comprehending it.
>>People are attempting to rely on unknown mechanisms for info
>>assimilation. They may, or they might not, exist.
>
>I rely on my eyes and brain.
The problem is to try to figure out exactly what the brain is doing.
Don't stop there. Eyes can also be fooled. Some of this work can be
automated (like here).
>>>>>>>> understanding the point being made and how it was derived.
>>>>>>>>> Assessing is comprehending whether the info looks worth considering
>>>>>>>Indeed. Gold amongst dross.
>>>>>>data mining ?
>>>>>There has to be a way to sort out the worthwhile from the worthless or
>>>>>irrelevant.
>>>>Education.
>>>Agreed.
>>Deja vu..... that funny....
...
>>>>This is part of why heads of state use intelligence organziations.
>>>Then you have to comprehend the data provided by the intelligence
>>>organizations.
>>If you are a head of state.... (a man's home is his castle... [a Crusade
>>phrase if I have ever heard one]).
>>Your interpretation will depend on your values, your priorities.
>
>Which may mean that you know how you will interpret whatever the
>intelligence says, rendering it useless except as a back up to what you
>planned anyway.
Didn't say anything about plans.
Modern's man's concept of time is one of the things which make us
modern men.
We are just now beginning to think abstractly (planning, blue prints, etc.)
>>A Navigator might be able to tell you where you are, and where you are
>>going on the short term. You have to set the course.
>Assuming you really are in control.
Well if you are the head of state.....
>>This says nothing about time pressure.
>
>Which might be a reason why you aren't fully in control.
Control is rarely an absolute thing. Consider a marriage for instance....
Just who really controls one? The man in patriarchies? But it's rarely
absolute is it? Why is it called matrimony?
Separate out the issues.
>>>Saw the Narnia film on Saturday. At one point there's a close up shot of
>>>a document signed by the Chief of Secret Police.
>>Mr. Churchill set that up?
>
>It's in the book, published in 1950.
>I rather think Stalin was the cause.
Well, the NKVD and the Stasi, and a slew of secret people in all
countries are like that. On doesn't have to resort to Beria.
So Cold War?
>>DVDs stopping and examining such scenes
>
>I've enjoyed trying to place all the Scottish Highland scenes in the
>Harry Potter films.
Ah!
I did similar in old arcade style video disk gameslike Mach III.
>>the DVD or a theater.
>
>Four of us split up at the cinema - two to Narnia, two to King Kong.
>I'd like to see KK soon.
I think I've had enough of the Kong films.
"T'was beauty that killed the beast..."
And 3 different Batmen genres.
Fiction is tanking.
How are you able to get along without Woddy Allen, Spike Lee, QT/UT,
and the like?
>Narnia isn't like LOTR. It doesn't really need a huge screen.
Good intell.
>>>>>>>>> snow
>>>>dump in Europe, the Alps.
>>>I believe parts of the Alps have plenty of snow already.
>>Italy.
>>Austria
>>Swiss
>Reports today of further heavy snow in the Alps.
r.s.e.
>Thawing here ....
Beware black ice.
--
Chris Townsend
writes
>In article <X3sBLNEN...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
>Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>Pen computers?
>>They certainly haven't caught on here.
>>
>>iPods and camera phones are the popular products here. I own neither.
>
>Well, this is the home of the iPod. I don't need one.
>I am amazed that I ever tried a Walkman.
I have a Walkman I hardly ever used. I'm amazed I bought it now.
> I don't really take either
>except on the longest trips.
It could be useful on long train/plane journeys. I wouldn't mind a small
MP3 player.
>But these are newer generation toys
>taken by the younger generation. But my old 80 yr. old officemate has
>an iPod, but he listens to classical music.
>
>Camera are just cheap now for phones.
The cost of digital cameras is falling fast in general.
I'm old fashioned with phones. I just use them to make calls. PCs are
for email. Cameras for photographs.
>
>
>>>>>>Rite-In-The-Rain
>>>>>JL Darling makes those:
>>>>Alwych notebooks with All Weather covers, produced in Scotland.
>>>Local business.
>>Yes. Though that's not why I first bought one many years ago.
>
>Available product?
Yes. And the right one. My first Alwych notebook dates from 1979 and is
in fine condition. Earlier card covered notebooks are quite tatty. I
guess I was looking for a more durable one. I bought that first one in
Manchester, England, where I was living at the time.
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> How fast you can assess and process info is important.
>>>>>>>>>>> I tend to go for comprehsion
>>>>>Small cameras can provide context.
>>>>>We have seen how phone camera changed news since the Madrid and London
>>>>>bombings and transformer explosions in SF.
>>>>And the recent oil depot explosions in southern England.
>>>We've seen a little of that here. Lots gets edited in news.
>>
>>The oil depot explosions vanished from the news here after a few days.
>
>A friend grew up in the HH area.
I was born nearby and lived in HH until the age of 4. I have no memory
of it whatsoever.
>
>>Northern Ireland is in the news again. A key senior figure in Shin Fein
>>has turned out to have been a British spy for the last 20 years.
>
>That's common. A similar thing happened in the US during the Vietnam war.
Double agents seem to pop up all the time. John le Carre covered it
well.
>
>Here on Public boradcasting, our man Steves is promoting Northern
>Ireland travel. Dollars coming their way.
As long as the peace holds.
>
>>>>>>>>>> comprehension as key.
>>>>all too easy to absorb data without comprehending it.
>>>People are attempting to rely on unknown mechanisms for info
>>>assimilation. They may, or they might not, exist.
>>
>>I rely on my eyes and brain.
>
>The problem is to try to figure out exactly what the brain is doing.
>Don't stop there.
Certainly figuring out what the brain is doing, or trying to is
important. Otherwise biases creep in unnoticed. At least if you're aware
of them you know your interpretation is skewed in a certain direction.
> Eyes can also be fooled.
They need to go with the brain. What you see is not necessarily what you
get.
>Some of this work can be
>automated (like here).
>
>>>>>>>>> understanding the point being made and how it was derived.
>>>>>>>>>> Assessing is comprehending whether the info looks worth considering
>>>>>>>>Indeed. Gold amongst dross.
>>>>>>>data mining ?
>>>>>>There has to be a way to sort out the worthwhile from the worthless or
>>>>>>irrelevant.
>>>>>Education.
>>>>Agreed.
>>>Deja vu..... that funny....
>...
>>>>>This is part of why heads of state use intelligence organziations.
>>>>Then you have to comprehend the data provided by the intelligence
>>>>organizations.
>>>If you are a head of state.... (a man's home is his castle... [a Crusade
>>>phrase if I have ever heard one]).
>>>Your interpretation will depend on your values, your priorities.
>>
>>Which may mean that you know how you will interpret whatever the
>>intelligence says, rendering it useless except as a back up to what you
>>planned anyway.
>
>Didn't say anything about plans.
Doesn't intelligence gathering always relate to some plan or other?
Heads of state always have plans.
>
>Modern's man's concept of time is one of the things which make us
>modern men.
True. We forget how recent the measurement of time is. Travel and
industry made standardisation essential. The railways brought it to
Britain.
>
>We are just now beginning to think abstractly (planning, blue prints, etc.)
Some are. Politicians aren't. Political time is measured in election
cycles. Which is unfortunate.
>
>>>A Navigator might be able to tell you where you are, and where you are
>>>going on the short term. You have to set the course.
>>Assuming you really are in control.
>
>Well if you are the head of state.....
You may be in control.
Of course our official head of state is the Queen, who isn't in control.
>
>>>This says nothing about time pressure.
>>
>>Which might be a reason why you aren't fully in control.
>
>Control is rarely an absolute thing. Consider a marriage for instance....
>Just who really controls one? The man in patriarchies? But it's rarely
>absolute is it? Why is it called matrimony?
Does anyone need to control a marriage? Maybe attempts at control are
why so many marriages go wrong.
>
>Separate out the issues.
>
>>>>Saw the Narnia film on Saturday. At one point there's a close up shot of
>>>>a document signed by the Chief of Secret Police.
>>>Mr. Churchill set that up?
>>
>>It's in the book, published in 1950.
>>I rather think Stalin was the cause.
>
>Well, the NKVD and the Stasi, and a slew of secret people in all
>countries are like that. On doesn't have to resort to Beria.
>So Cold War?
Yep. I thought the film reflected Cold War attitudes more than
Christianity.
>
>>>DVDs stopping and examining such scenes
>>
>>I've enjoyed trying to place all the Scottish Highland scenes in the
>>Harry Potter films.
>
>Ah!
>I did similar in old arcade style video disk gameslike Mach III.
>
>
>>>the DVD or a theater.
>>
>>Four of us split up at the cinema - two to Narnia, two to King Kong.
>>I'd like to see KK soon.
>
>I think I've had enough of the Kong films.
>"T'was beauty that killed the beast..."
>And 3 different Batmen genres.
>Fiction is tanking.
My main interest in seeing King Kong is because it's a Peter Jackson
film rather than because it's King Kong. I wouldn't be interested if it
was any other director.
>
>How are you able to get along without Woddy Allen, Spike Lee, QT/UT,
>and the like?
I see Woody Allen is now making his films in London. I haven't seen one
of his for many years.
I don't see many films anyway.
>
>>Narnia isn't like LOTR. It doesn't really need a huge screen.
>
>Good intell.
>
>>>>>>>>>> snow
>>>>>dump in Europe, the Alps.
>>>>I believe parts of the Alps have plenty of snow already.
>>>Italy.
>>>Austria
>>>Swiss
>>Reports today of further heavy snow in the Alps.
>
>r.s.e.
>
>>Thawing here ....
>
>Beware black ice.
>
A meeting tomorrow in the hills (magazine features discussion "on site"
so to speak). The forecast is for 50-75mph winds and snow and white-out
conditions above 2,000 feet.
Eugene Miya
>>Walkman.
In article <fZjjwaPz...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>I have a Walkman I hardly ever used. I'm amazed I bought it now.
On large long expeditions where barter happens, it can be a strategic
resource. Satellite radio may be the next coming thing.
>> I don't really take either except on the longest trips.
>
>It could be useful on long train/plane journeys. I wouldn't mind a small
>MP3 player.
For all of us, it depends on the nature of the trip.
Selection for instance the train example or the polar regions had me take
much more diverse sounds than I would have otherwise, and it wasn't
diverse enough. While I had non-English and classical, I even had
strange cravings for certain early Moto-town and even a little Elvis.
Weird. You really learn about economics in situations lacking other
resrouces.
>The cost of digital cameras is falling fast in general.
The problem is the razor blades for handles problem. I give you a free
handle, you continue to buy razor blades. It's the infrastructure to
make the blades which is expensive. Same with cameras. They want to
recoup the cost of the fab line.
>I'm old fashioned with phones. I just use them to make calls. PCs are
>for email. Cameras for photographs.
You will get a camera in time for the foreseeable because it will stop
being economic to produce non-camera phones. It may be a crummy camera,
you and I will be taken for a ride by other people's kids.
>>>>>>>Rite-In-The-Rain
>>>>>>JL Darling makes those:
>>>>>Alwych notebooks with All Weather covers, produced in Scotland.
>>>>Local business.
>>>Yes. Though that's not why I first bought one many years ago.
>>Available product?
>
>Yes. And the right one. My first Alwych notebook dates from 1979 and is
>in fine condition. Earlier card covered notebooks are quite tatty. I
>guess I was looking for a more durable one. I bought that first one in
>Manchester, England, where I was living at the time.
Manchester, been by there.
I've got to find one of those shoulder holders like cigarette girls of
old use to sell cigs and things, except I want to set a lap top on it.
I saw one yesterday on C-SPAN on the floor of the US Senate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> How fast you can assess and process info is important.
>>>>>>>>>>>> comprehsion
>>>>>>Small cameras can provide context.
>>>>>>bombings and transformer explosions in SF.
>>>>>And the recent oil depot explosions in southern England.
>>>The oil depot explosions vanished from the news here after a few days.
>
>I was born nearby and lived in HH until the age of 4. I have no memory
>of it whatsoever.
Simon and Garfunkel: Bookends.
preserve your memories: you're all that's left you.
>>>Northern Ireland is in the news again. A key senior figure in Shin Fein
>>>has turned out to have been a British spy for the last 20 years.
>>That's common. A similar thing happened in the US during the Vietnam war.
>
>Double agents seem to pop up all the time. John le Carre covered it
>well.
Yes, I have been suggested to read his books.
That's not how its done any more. Just like this message gets
intercepted once it goes overseas.
You guys were good at turning agents.
Wonder how it will work after the cold war.
>>Here on Public broadcasting, our man Steves is promoting Northern
>>Ireland travel. Dollars coming their way.
>As long as the peace holds.
As long as HP stil keeps giving jobs; as the Irish have decent English
skills for phone banks, but as India starts to undercut them and who
knows about China.
>>>>>>>>>>> comprehension as key.
>>>>>all too easy to absorb data without comprehending it.
>>The problem is to try to figure out exactly what the brain is doing.
>>Don't stop there.
>
>Certainly figuring out what the brain is doing, or trying to is
>important. Otherwise biases creep in unnoticed. At least if you're aware
>of them you know your interpretation is skewed in a certain direction.
Once you get a brain injury, your friends will know.
You might not. You don't get many second chances with a brain.
>> Eyes can also be fooled.
>They need to go with the brain. What you see is not necessarily what you
>get.
You guys were early camo experts.
>>>>>>>>>> understanding
>>>>>>>>>>> Assessing comprehending
>>>>>>>>data mining ?
>>>>>>Education.
>>Didn't say anything about plans.
>
>Doesn't intelligence gathering always relate to some plan or other?
>Heads of state always have plans.
Well they get elected or take over for planks.
You'd be amazed what not planned.
Give it a little thought.
>>Modern's man's concept of time is one of the things which make us
>>modern men.
>
>True. We forget how recent the measurement of time is. Travel and
>industry made standardisation essential. The railways brought it to
>Britain.
Clocks and railways.
There's that English spelling.
>>We are just now beginning to think abstractly (planning, blue prints, etc.)
>Some are. Politicians aren't. Political time is measured in election
>cycles. Which is unfortunate.
Politicians try to be all things ot all people.
>>>>A Navigator might be able to tell you where you are, and where you are
>>>>going on the short term. You have to set the course.
>>>Assuming you really are in control.
>>Well if you are the head of state.....
>
>You may be in control.
Only briefly. That's how networks work. Shared control like a traffic
intersection.
>Of course our official head of state is the Queen, who isn't in control.
You have Mr. Blair. Went by 10 D; they considered having him put in an
appearance at a meeting 5 years ago. That would have been amusing.
>>>>This says nothing about time pressure.
>>>Which might be a reason why you aren't fully in control.
>>Control is rarely an absolute thing. Consider a marriage for instance....
>>Just who really controls one? The man in patriarchies? But it's rarely
>>absolute is it? Why is it called matrimony?
>
>Does anyone need to control a marriage?
In hospitals, for instance, the answer is yes. Decisions sometimes
needs to get made. This is the gay marriage thing.
>Maybe attempts at control are why so many marriages go wrong.
There's commonly an Alpha and a beta. 2 Alpha's don't easy cut it.
Now people can switch temporarily or change. But the divorces I see are
commonly 2 differently directed Alphas. Harder when older when you get
set in ways.
>>>>>Saw the Narnia film on Saturday. At one point there's a close up shot of
>>>>>a document signed by the Chief of Secret Police.
>>>It's in the book, published in 1950.
>>>I rather think Stalin was the cause.
>
>Yep. I thought the film reflected Cold War attitudes more than
>Christianity.
Really? Nt like reading pre-WWII in JRRT?
>>Fiction is tanking.
>
>My main interest in seeing King Kong is because it's a Peter Jackson
>film rather than because it's King Kong. I wouldn't be interested if it
>was any other director.
Oh cinema. Cinematography.
He is good at that. I don't know if Lange is doing a Cameo.
>>How are you able to get along without Woddy Allen, Spike Lee, QT/UT,
>>and the like?
>I see Woody Allen is now making his films in London. I haven't seen one
>of his for many years.
Some of the US is a bit hostile to him. As Michael Jackson.
I think we also kicked out Polanski as well.
>I don't see many films anyway.
They can be hypnotic.
--
Chris Townsend
writes
>>>iPod.
>>>Walkman.
>
>In article <fZjjwaPz...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
>Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>I have a Walkman I hardly ever used. I'm amazed I bought it now.
>
>On large long expeditions where barter happens, it can be a strategic
>resource. Satellite radio may be the next coming thing.
Satellite radio sounds interesting.
In Nepal with trekking groups we have a satellite phone. Used it on the
last trip to call a helicopter for sick trekkers.
>
>
>>> I don't really take either except on the longest trips.
>>
>>It could be useful on long train/plane journeys. I wouldn't mind a small
>>MP3 player.
>
>For all of us, it depends on the nature of the trip.
Certainly. The longest trips I've done are 5 1/2 month backpacking
trips. I've never carried any music player or radio on these or shorter
backpacking trips and I've never missed having anything to listen to.
However in vehicles and hotel rooms I can get bored very quickly.
>Selection for instance the train example or the polar regions had me take
>much more diverse sounds than I would have otherwise, and it wasn't
>diverse enough. While I had non-English and classical, I even had
>strange cravings for certain early Moto-town and even a little Elvis.
>Weird. You really learn about economics in situations lacking other
>resrouces.
Difficult to know what you might want.
>
>>The cost of digital cameras is falling fast in general.
>
>The problem is the razor blades for handles problem. I give you a free
>handle, you continue to buy razor blades. It's the infrastructure to
>make the blades which is expensive. Same with cameras. They want to
>recoup the cost of the fab line.
The cost seems to lie in backup storage if you're concerned about that
(I am, most people don't seem to be) or in upgrading if you have to have
the latest model. Otherwise digital is cheaper than film once you have a
camera.
>
>>I'm old fashioned with phones. I just use them to make calls. PCs are
>>for email. Cameras for photographs.
>
>You will get a camera in time for the foreseeable because it will stop
>being economic to produce non-camera phones. It may be a crummy camera,
>you and I will be taken for a ride by other people's kids.
I already have a phone that does things I don't need or want and never
use. I guess a camera will be added sometime. It'll be like all the
things I never use on this PC (most of them).
>
>>>>>>>>Rite-In-The-Rain
>>>>>>>JL Darling makes those:
>>>>>>Alwych notebooks with All Weather covers, produced in Scotland.
>>>>>Local business.
>>>>Yes. Though that's not why I first bought one many years ago.
>>>Available product?
>>
>>Yes. And the right one. My first Alwych notebook dates from 1979 and is
>>in fine condition. Earlier card covered notebooks are quite tatty. I
>>guess I was looking for a more durable one. I bought that first one in
>>Manchester, England, where I was living at the time.
>
>Manchester, been by there.
I lived there for several years. The best thing about it is you can get
out to the hills easily. From high storey buildings you can see the
Pennines.
>I've got to find one of those shoulder holders like cigarette girls of
>old use to sell cigs and things, except I want to set a lap top on it.
>I saw one yesterday on C-SPAN on the floor of the US Senate.
I can't quite envisage one. Like the shoulder supported trays ice cream
sellers used to bring round cinemas in intervals?
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How fast you can assess and process info is important.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> comprehsion
>>>>>>>Small cameras can provide context.
>>>>>>>bombings and transformer explosions in SF.
>>>>>>And the recent oil depot explosions in southern England.
>>>>The oil depot explosions vanished from the news here after a few days.
>>
>>I was born nearby and lived in HH until the age of 4. I have no memory
>>of it whatsoever.
>
>Simon and Garfunkel: Bookends.
>preserve your memories: you're all that's left you.
This is why I think of myself as coming from north west England, where I
was brought up and of which I have many memories, even though I was born
and spent my first years in south east England, of which I have no
memories.
>
>
>>>>Northern Ireland is in the news again. A key senior figure in Shin Fein
>>>>has turned out to have been a British spy for the last 20 years.
>>>That's common. A similar thing happened in the US during the Vietnam war.
>>
>>Double agents seem to pop up all the time. John le Carre covered it
>>well.
>
>Yes, I have been suggested to read his books.
>That's not how its done any more. Just like this message gets
>intercepted once it goes overseas.
Le Carre is still writing, though I haven't read his recent stuff.
>
>You guys were good at turning agents.
And being turned. Philby, Maclean etc.
>
>Wonder how it will work after the cold war.
There'll always be a new enemy.
>
>
>>>Here on Public broadcasting, our man Steves is promoting Northern
>>>Ireland travel. Dollars coming their way.
>>As long as the peace holds.
>
>As long as HP stil keeps giving jobs; as the Irish have decent English
>skills for phone banks, but as India starts to undercut them and who
>knows about China.
India seems the favourite now. Most UK call centres have moved there.
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> comprehension as key.
>>>>>>all too easy to absorb data without comprehending it.
>>>The problem is to try to figure out exactly what the brain is doing.
>>>Don't stop there.
>>
>>Certainly figuring out what the brain is doing, or trying to is
>>important. Otherwise biases creep in unnoticed. At least if you're aware
>>of them you know your interpretation is skewed in a certain direction.
>
>Once you get a brain injury, your friends will know.
>You might not. You don't get many second chances with a brain.
>
>
>>> Eyes can also be fooled.
>>They need to go with the brain. What you see is not necessarily what you
>>get.
>
>You guys were early camo experts.
Once we worked out that marching round in red wasn't too bright. I think
America taught us that.
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>> understanding
>>>>>>>>>>>> Assessing comprehending
>>>>>>>>>data mining ?
>>>>>>>Education.
>>>Didn't say anything about plans.
>>
>>Doesn't intelligence gathering always relate to some plan or other?
>>Heads of state always have plans.
>
>Well they get elected or take over for planks.
>You'd be amazed what not planned.
>Give it a little thought.
Plans and reality often don't coincide. Heads of states always have
plans. What they have to deal with often doesn't have anything to do
with those plans.
>
>>>Modern's man's concept of time is one of the things which make us
>>>modern men.
>>
>>True. We forget how recent the measurement of time is. Travel and
>>industry made standardisation essential. The railways brought it to
>>Britain.
>
>Clocks and railways.
>There's that English spelling.
Which one?
>
>>>We are just now beginning to think abstractly (planning, blue prints, etc.)
>>Some are. Politicians aren't. Political time is measured in election
>>cycles. Which is unfortunate.
>
>Politicians try to be all things ot all people.
Votes are all.
>
>
>>>>>A Navigator might be able to tell you where you are, and where you are
>>>>>going on the short term. You have to set the course.
>>>>Assuming you really are in control.
>>>Well if you are the head of state.....
>>
>>You may be in control.
>
>Only briefly. That's how networks work. Shared control like a traffic
>intersection.
>
>>Of course our official head of state is the Queen, who isn't in control.
>
>You have Mr. Blair. Went by 10 D; they considered having him put in an
>appearance at a meeting 5 years ago. That would have been amusing.
The P.M. isn't the head of state though but the head of the party that
has a majority in the House of Commons. That party can change its leader
and appoint another who then becomes P.M. That's what happened to
Thatcher. Her party dumped her because she was seen as an election
liability.
>
>
>>>>>This says nothing about time pressure.
>>>>Which might be a reason why you aren't fully in control.
>>>Control is rarely an absolute thing. Consider a marriage for instance....
>>>Just who really controls one? The man in patriarchies? But it's rarely
>>>absolute is it? Why is it called matrimony?
>>
>>Does anyone need to control a marriage?
>
>In hospitals, for instance, the answer is yes. Decisions sometimes
>needs to get made. This is the gay marriage thing.
Civil partnerships (effectively gay marriage) have just become legal
here. The first ceremonies were in Belfast yesterday.
>
>>Maybe attempts at control are why so many marriages go wrong.
>
>There's commonly an Alpha and a beta. 2 Alpha's don't easy cut it.
>Now people can switch temporarily or change. But the divorces I see are
>commonly 2 differently directed Alphas. Harder when older when you get
>set in ways.
Often I think one person is alpha in some respects, the other in others.
>
>>>>>>Saw the Narnia film on Saturday. At one point there's a close up shot of
>>>>>>a document signed by the Chief of Secret Police.
>>>>It's in the book, published in 1950.
>>>>I rather think Stalin was the cause.
>>
>>Yep. I thought the film reflected Cold War attitudes more than
>>Christianity.
>
>Really? Nt like reading pre-WWII in JRRT?
Yes. As well as a chief of secret police there are references to a
movement for a free Narnia. And the White Witch is a clear dictator
running a totalitarian state where all critics or opponents are
disappeared by being turned to stone.
>
>
>>>Fiction is tanking.
>>
>>My main interest in seeing King Kong is because it's a Peter Jackson
>>film rather than because it's King Kong. I wouldn't be interested if it
>>was any other director.
>
>Oh cinema. Cinematography.
>He is good at that. I don't know if Lange is doing a Cameo.
>
>
>>>How are you able to get along without Woddy Allen, Spike Lee, QT/UT,
>>>and the like?
>>I see Woody Allen is now making his films in London. I haven't seen one
>>of his for many years.
>
>Some of the US is a bit hostile to him. As Michael Jackson.
>I think we also kicked out Polanski as well.
I believe Polanski is still wanted by the police. I don't think Jackson
would that welcome here. Woody Allen is regarded as a serious film
maker.
>
>
>>I don't see many films anyway.
>
>They can be hypnotic.
>
Not when it's an 80 mile round trip to the nearest cinema!
I see four or five a year at most in the cinema and a few more on DVD.
Ed Huesers
> Ed Huesers writes
>> The distributors keep telling him that he needs a more expensive
>> one. Marketing...
Chris Townsend wrote:
> As long as its useful as well...
He's got a good head on his shoulders and believes in testing in the
extremes. It's supposed to pop out on it own, kind of like the gas
cartridges that hold up the rear hatch of a car.
>> You must have a better memory than I. I like the quick draw feature
>> of having it on my chest strap. Of course, I'm trying to push it to
>> see if I lose it and it hasn't happened yet.
> Notebooks and pens are essential to my work so I take great care of
> them.
Yeah, I'm a novice, for sure.
> I lose and mislay other things instead - knives, head lamps, socks.
I'm pretty good at that but did lose the keys one fine winter day.
They don't go in the pants pocket anymore.
>>> Indeed. Gold amongst dross.
>> Powder amongst windblown.
> Rarer here than gold.
Runs in veins here. Take the windblown boiler plate up and come down
the powder. It's been cold and just windy enough this winter to give a
bunch of boiler plate and the avalanche danger is up a bit because of it
but the base below is pretty consolidated so far.
> I'll look out for igloos.
Damn strait, them buggers'll get ya.
Ed Huesers
Http://www.grandshelters.com
Eugene Miya
Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>iPod.
>>>>Walkman.
>>>I have a Walkman I hardly ever used. I'm amazed I bought it now.
>>On large long expeditions where barter happens, it can be a strategic
>>resource. Satellite radio may be the next coming thing.
>
>Satellite radio sounds interesting.
Hard to say whether its economics will work.
Only time will tell. You can listen to Howard Stern.
But I think that says more about Americans than Stern himself.
>In Nepal with trekking groups we have a satellite phone. Used it on the
>last trip to call a helicopter for sick trekkers.
Sometmes we have to carry a phone in Alaska. It's work after all.
On the plane or helo there are av radios. I just depends what you want
to do with it. It's fine by me unless the person on the trip was
walking along with ear buds or talking on a phone and a polar or grizzly
comes up to them.
Why are Trekkers getting sick? Why could they not take came of
themselves? They are like Doug's travel partners. Scott Fisher meat.
>>For all of us, it depends on the nature of the trip.
>
>Certainly. The longest trips I've done are 5 1/2 month backpacking
>trips. I've never carried any music player or radio on these or shorter
>backpacking trips and I've never missed having anything to listen to.
>However in vehicles and hotel rooms I can get bored very quickly.
New bear stickers, BTW. I should send you a couple with the card.
I don't mind the TV for sound, or reading a book. Or radio.
At least the scenery goes by like on European trains. cars and rooms
vastly different situations.
>> recordings on long trips
>Difficult to know what you might want.
It's not just you if it's with other people.
Then it becomes political. Morale, Welfare, and Recration.
>>>The cost of digital cameras is falling fast in general.
>
>The cost seems to lie in backup storage if you're concerned about that
>(I am, most people don't seem to be) or in upgrading if you have to have
>the latest model. Otherwise digital is cheaper than film once you have a
>camera.
Well I am stating to get lots of CDs with imagery.
Search is my greater concern. I would rather throw away useless images.
I have enough sample useless images for testing purposes (every one who
works on imagery keeps good test cases).
>>>I'm old fashioned with phones. I just use them to make calls. PCs are
>>>for email. Cameras for photographs.
>>You will get a camera in time for the foreseeable because it will stop
>>being economic to produce non-camera phones.
>
>I already have a phone that does things I don't need or want and never
>use. I guess a camera will be added sometime. It'll be like all the
>things I never use on this PC (most of them).
It's true.
But then in the camera case: you come on a car accident say, then it
becomes useful. You may take that London bombing photo which makes the
Time cover....
>>>>>>>>>Rite-In-The-Rain
>>>>>>>>JL Darling makes those:
>>>>>>>Alwych notebooks with All Weather covers, produced in Scotland.
>>Manchester,
>
>I lived there for several years. The best thing about it is you can get
>out to the hills easily. From high storey buildings you can see the
>Pennines.
>
>>I've got to find one of those shoulder holders like cigarette girls of
>>old use to sell cigs and things, except I want to set a lap top on it.
>>I saw one yesterday on C-SPAN on the floor of the US Senate.
>
>I can't quite envisage one. Like the shoulder supported trays ice cream
>sellers used to bring round cinemas in intervals?
Yes. I think close enough.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How fast you can assess and process info is important.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> comprehsion
>>>>>>>>Small cameras can provide context.
>>Simon and Garfunkel: Bookends.
>>preserve your memories: you're all that's left you.
>
>This is why I think of myself as coming from north west England, where I
>was brought up and of which I have many memories, even though I was born
>and spent my first years in south east England, of which I have no
>memories.
Hard to know which to keep.
>>>>>Northern Ireland is in the news again. A key senior figure in Shin Fein
>>>>>has turned out to have been a British spy for the last 20 years.
>>>Double agents seem to pop up all the time. John le Carre covered it
>Le Carre is still writing, though I haven't read his recent stuff.
>>You guys were good at turning agents.
>And being turned. Philby, Maclean etc.
Yes, I am reading a little about Philby at this moment (he's a said
player).
>>Wonder how it will work after the cold war.
>There'll always be a new enemy.
Sound like the words of a paranoid.
Have you read Andy Grove's book?
>>>>Here on Public broadcasting, our man Steves is promoting Northern
>>>>Ireland travel. Dollars coming their way.
>>>As long as the peace holds.
>>As long as HP stil keeps giving jobs; as the Irish have decent English
>>skills for phone banks, but as India starts to undercut them and who
>>knows about China.
>
>India seems the favourite now. Most UK call centres have moved there.
China will come next.
Education will be the intersting point.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> comprehension as key.
>>>>>>>all too easy to absorb data without comprehending it.
>>>> Eyes can also be fooled.
>>You guys were early camo experts.
>
>Once we worked out that marching round in red wasn't too bright. I think
>America taught us that.
I think I just saw one of those re-enactment Concord/Lexingotn things.
Melodramatic.
>>>>>>>>>>>> understanding
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Assessing comprehending
>>>>>>>>>>data mining ?
>>>>>>>>Education.
>>>>Didn't say anything about plans.
Just came up on GC's post for the day.
>Plans and reality often don't coincide. Heads of states always have
>plans. What they have to deal with often doesn't have anything to do
>with those plans.
In the abstract, in the past, this was true.
But in the more concrete, this is changing.
It started with civil engineering, with blueprints, then it went into
the more abstract with systems analysis and simulation.
This happened in the Falklands, the first modern war, and the current
Crusades. You can plan for contingencies. It just also depends on your
values and what's acceptable. You can see now why Saddam gassed his own
people. But we have different values. etc.
>>>>Modern's man's concept of time is one of the things which make us
>>>>modern men.
>>>True. We forget how recent the measurement of time is. Travel and
>>>industry made standardisation essential. The railways brought it to
>>>Britain.
>>Clocks and railways.
>>There's that English spelling.
>
>Which one?
>>>standardisation
>>>>We are just now beginning to think abstractly (planning, blue prints, etc.)
>>>Some are. Politicians aren't. Political time is measured in election
>>>cycles. Which is unfortunate.
>>
>>Politicians try to be all things ot all people.
>
>Votes are all.
Not quite.
Once in office the politician has choice.
You might be happy if you are winning party at her/his decision.
You might be unhappy if you aren't winning party at her/his decision.
Rarer:
You might be happy if you are losing party at her/his decision.
You might be unhappy if you are losing party at her/his decision.
You can make 2x2 matrices and simple probability statements but the
peaks will be happiness and winning party and unhappiness and losing
party. That's the easy part. The other two are much harder to
characterize. We don't like every party decision on our side
("My country right or wrong") nor are we always unhappy (otherwise
we might think about overturning the system [we have this thing lacking
in Iraq called The Electoral College]).
>>>>>>A Navigator might be able to tell you where you are, and where you are
>>>>>>going on the short term. You have to set the course.
>>>You may be in control.
>
>The P.M. isn't the head of state though but the head of the party that
>has a majority in the House of Commons. That party can change its leader
>and appoint another who then becomes P.M. That's what happened to
>Thatcher. Her party dumped her because she was seen as an election
>liability.
Who pulls the British nuclear trigger? The Queen? Or the PM?
>>>>>>This says nothing about time pressure.
>>>>Control is rarely an absolute thing. Consider a marriage for instance....
>>>>Just who really controls one? The man in patriarchies? But it's rarely
>>>>absolute is it? Why is it called matrimony?
>
>Civil partnerships (effectively gay marriage) have just become legal
>here. The first ceremonies were in Belfast yesterday.
Sir Elton!
I have no problems with civil unions. Mr. Kerry didn't either.
>>>>>>>Saw the Narnia film
>>>>>>>a document signed by the Chief of Secret Police.
>>>>>the book, published in 1950.
>>>>>I rather think Stalin was the cause.
>>>Yep. I thought the film reflected Cold War attitudes more than
>>>Christianity.
>>Really? Nt like reading pre-WWII in JRRT?
>
>Yes. As well as a chief of secret police there are references to a
>movement for a free Narnia. And the White Witch is a clear dictator
>running a totalitarian state where all critics or opponents are
>disappeared by being turned to stone.
Hmmm, need to read this. No time.
>>>>Fiction is tanking.
>>>>How are you able to get along without Woddy Allen, Spike Lee, QT/UT,
>>>>and the like?
>>>I see Woody Allen is now making his films in London. I haven't seen one
>>>of his for many years.
>>
>>Some of the US is a bit hostile to him. As Michael Jackson.
>>I think we also kicked out Polanski as well.
>
>I believe Polanski is still wanted by the police. I don't think Jackson
yes.
>would that welcome here. Woody Allen is regarded as a serious film
>maker.
MJ is in the middle east but his famil is still here.
Some women regard Woody as a child molester.
>>>I don't see many films anyway.
>>They can be hypnotic.
>Not when it's an 80 mile round trip to the nearest cinema!
>
>I see four or five a year at most in the cinema and a few more on DVD.
Netflix: so my friend Marianne tells me.
Corp HQ S of me about 8 miles.
--
------------ And now a word from our sponsor ------------------
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Eugene Miya
Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
This one must have mirrored some where as Expires here is only 2 days
and I think you sent this after I left for the Sierra.
>>Deja vu, that strange feeling.....
>>>>>>>Lord of the Rings...
>>>>>And before Tolkien.
>>NPR implied that LOTR came first (actually Hobbit).
>
>The Hobbit came much earlier. Late 30s.
About 18 years.
>>My friends point out that Oxford's dark Nationalist Socialist secret was
>>Hitler's plan to make Oxford New London had he conquered the British Isles.
>
>I didn't know that.
That's why he called it part of Oxford's dark past.
And a lot of people read WWII into it. And JRR didn't like that.
Similarly Zanuck set out to make an antiwar film about D-day in Normandy
and failed.
>>>>>>>Harry Potter is, I think, patchy. The third one is the best. The latest
>>>>>>>film is pretty good.
>>>>>I think the plot is stronger in the 3rd book and the atmosphere is
>>>>>darker and more serious. This comes out in the film too. The 4th and 5th
..
>>>>Does it have to be dark and serious to be better?
>>>Not necessarily. But the first two are very much light children's books
>>>with potentially dark and serious subjects and moments backed away from.
>>I thought that was the point of the first 2 and the later more recent
>>ones being for adolescence......
>
>Certainly the books should develop in tone as the protagonists get older
>but there is a big jump between books two and three.
Kids books can still be made from adult material.
The problem is that our world sends mixed signals about growing up.
We have very vague notions about the experience (some call it innocence)
of childhood. Bronowski called it the neoteny of intellect.
The harsh reality is that a large number of kids walk around with AK-47s
and RPGs. And 1st world adults cry foul. But they have simplistic
notions of "Johnny go out and play...."
>>Bilbo as a Hobbit wasn't very deep either.
>Another children's book.
It was a neat book.
>>Sometimes too much is made of depth.
>
>Of course. As children's books the first two Harry Potters are fine,
>certainly as good as the Narnia books though not as good as The Hobbit.
So what happened?
>>But then there is the issue of history....
>History of?
2 types or kinds:
Human chronology, and personal chronology (experience).
The US to credit and shame skips the history (Saddam talking about why
he invade Kuwait), or the various Balkans faction, and attempts nation
building, peace keeping, etc.
Mallory:
>>Yeah, I think I told you Rick think's his grand Dad made summitted.
>
>His clothing wouldn't have stopped him.
No, clothing owuld not have stopped him.
>>Now calling Mr. Irvine....
>>
>>>>The Silicon Valley is a comparatively small community among the tech types.
>>>I haven't read any Asimov for decades.
>>Actually I think Asimov's intellectual descendents may be more topics.
>>Orson Scott Card, Neal Stephenson (fun friend), Kim Stan Robinson (just
>>in the area, but didn't go see him, he's not far away).
>
>I read a Neal Stephenson many years ago and there is a current one lying
>round the house I haven't picked up yet. Part of a trilogy I think.
Neal is quite a character and has quite a following.
Oh the Baroque cycle. Maybe one of these days......
I have to get to his Wired article about laying submarine cable.
It's supposed to be his best writing.
>>>>>We both like travelling.
>>>>We are on similar wavelengths.
>>>On some things :-). I'm not a scientist.
>>That's just the day job.
>
>I don't have a day job :-)
Wow! YOU are SOOOOO luckyyyyy. 8^)
>>>>>>>Julian Baggini's The Pig That Wants To Be Eaten is entertaining and
>>>>>>>thought provoking.
>>>>>100 thought experiments of various kinds (not all moral/ethical ones).
>>>Baggini is a philosopher.
>>A strike against him.
>
>Maybe. He writes some interesting stuff in newspapers and increasingly
>appears on the radio.
So does William Demment, no scratch that. He doesn't writing
interesting stuff.
>The book does provoke thinking.
Naw, it depends. Swamp gas can be made to sound interesting.
>>>Some of the experiments are rather artificial.
>>Artifical or contrived?
>Both
A limited number of contrived things: is OK, not too many.
Too many is a waste.
>>>>>The title comes from Douglas Adams of course - who Baggini credits.
>>>>Oh yes, I forget the precise name of the creature breed to be eaten.
>>>A cow.
>>I thought Adams gave him a different name. He did talk after all.
>I'd have to look it up.
Same here. I didn't get Adam book on floppy edition.
--
Chris Townsend
writes
>In article <VMCxlOT2...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
>Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>iPod.
>>>>>Walkman.
>>>>I have a Walkman I hardly ever used. I'm amazed I bought it now.
>>>On large long expeditions where barter happens, it can be a strategic
>>>resource. Satellite radio may be the next coming thing.
>>
>>Satellite radio sounds interesting.
>
>Hard to say whether its economics will work.
>Only time will tell. You can listen to Howard Stern.
>But I think that says more about Americans than Stern himself.
Stern is simply a rumour here. We here the news stories about him but
not the man himself.
>
>>In Nepal with trekking groups we have a satellite phone. Used it on the
>>last trip to call a helicopter for sick trekkers.
>
>Sometmes we have to carry a phone in Alaska. It's work after all.
>On the plane or helo there are av radios. I just depends what you want
>to do with it. It's fine by me unless the person on the trip was
>walking along with ear buds or talking on a phone and a polar or grizzly
>comes up to them.
In the backcountry in Nepal using a phone is very expensive so they are
strictly for emergencies. In Kathmandu you see cell phones everywhere,
>
>Why are Trekkers getting sick? Why could they not take came of
>themselves? They are like Doug's travel partners. Scott Fisher meat.
One had pneumonia, the other had mild high altitude pulmonary oedema,
serious AMS and gastro-enteritis.
Trekkers on the Everest Base Camp route are often first timers. Only one
of my group of 15 had been to the Himalaya before.
>
>
>>>For all of us, it depends on the nature of the trip.
>>
>>Certainly. The longest trips I've done are 5 1/2 month backpacking
>>trips. I've never carried any music player or radio on these or shorter
>>backpacking trips and I've never missed having anything to listen to.
>>However in vehicles and hotel rooms I can get bored very quickly.
>
>New bear stickers, BTW. I should send you a couple with the card.
Sound good.
>I don't mind the TV for sound, or reading a book. Or radio.
I often have the radio or music on while working. It drowns out other
sounds.
>At least the scenery goes by like on European trains. cars and rooms
>vastly different situations.
Very Long train journeys can be wonderful. My favourite is north in
winter or spring through Scandinavia from Oslo or Stockholm to Abisko or
somewhere else in the arctic. It's a 20 or so hour journey and you leave
the city in the evening, the last views being suburbs and industrial
estates. Then you sleep in the very comfortable sleeping compartments
and wake to endless snow covered conifer forests and half-frozen rushing
rivers crashing down full of ice. Beyond the forests rise the slowly
approaching white mountains.
>
>>> recordings on long trips
>>Difficult to know what you might want.
>
>It's not just you if it's with other people.
>Then it becomes political. Morale, Welfare, and Recration.
Leading groups I am very careful what I write down :-). And I always ask
groups if it's okay to take and maybe publish photos of them.
>
>>>>The cost of digital cameras is falling fast in general.
>>
>>The cost seems to lie in backup storage if you're concerned about that
>>(I am, most people don't seem to be) or in upgrading if you have to have
>>the latest model. Otherwise digital is cheaper than film once you have a
>>camera.
>
>Well I am stating to get lots of CDs with imagery.
I send everything out on CD these days and get masses of image CDs from
outdoor companies.
>Search is my greater concern.
I find this much easier with digital than film. I have many boxes of
slides waiting to be sorted and filed.
> I would rather throw away useless images.
I do.
>I have enough sample useless images for testing purposes (every one who
>works on imagery keeps good test cases).
>
>>>>I'm old fashioned with phones. I just use them to make calls. PCs are
>>>>for email. Cameras for photographs.
>>>You will get a camera in time for the foreseeable because it will stop
>>>being economic to produce non-camera phones.
>>
>>I already have a phone that does things I don't need or want and never
>>use. I guess a camera will be added sometime. It'll be like all the
>>things I never use on this PC (most of them).
>
>It's true.
>But then in the camera case: you come on a car accident say, then it
>becomes useful. You may take that London bombing photo which makes the
>Time cover....
That's why I always carry a camera :-)
And why I want a small digital compact.
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How fast you can assess and process info is important.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> comprehsion
>>>>>>>>>Small cameras can provide context.
>>>Simon and Garfunkel: Bookends.
>>>preserve your memories: you're all that's left you.
>>
>>This is why I think of myself as coming from north west England, where I
>>was brought up and of which I have many memories, even though I was born
>>and spent my first years in south east England, of which I have no
>>memories.
>
>Hard to know which to keep.
Partly depends on who you think you are. I'm aware that in part I don't
want to come from SE England.
>
>>>>>>Northern Ireland is in the news again. A key senior figure in Shin Fein
>>>>>>has turned out to have been a British spy for the last 20 years.
>>>>Double agents seem to pop up all the time. John le Carre covered it
>>Le Carre is still writing, though I haven't read his recent stuff.
>>>You guys were good at turning agents.
>>And being turned. Philby, Maclean etc.
>
>Yes, I am reading a little about Philby at this moment (he's a said
>player).
>
>>>Wonder how it will work after the cold war.
>>There'll always be a new enemy.
>
>Sound like the words of a paranoid.
A realist!
>Have you read Andy Grove's book?
No. I don't recognise the name.
>
>
>>>>>Here on Public broadcasting, our man Steves is promoting Northern
>>>>>Ireland travel. Dollars coming their way.
>>>>As long as the peace holds.
>>>As long as HP stil keeps giving jobs; as the Irish have decent English
>>>skills for phone banks, but as India starts to undercut them and who
>>>knows about China.
>>
>>India seems the favourite now. Most UK call centres have moved there.
>
>China will come next.
>
>Education will be the intersting point.
Indeed. It's odd having someone in India talking about the local weather
as though they are in the UK.
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> comprehension as key.
>>>>>>>>all too easy to absorb data without comprehending it.
>>>>> Eyes can also be fooled.
>>>You guys were early camo experts.
>>
>>Once we worked out that marching round in red wasn't too bright. I think
>>America taught us that.
>
>I think I just saw one of those re-enactment Concord/Lexingotn things.
>Melodramatic.
Re-enactments seem to be. I've seen UK civil war ones. I haven't been
to the local Culloden ones.
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> understanding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Assessing comprehending
>>>>>>>>>>>data mining ?
>>>>>>>>>Education.
>>>>>Didn't say anything about plans.
>
>Just came up on GC's post for the day.
>
>>Plans and reality often don't coincide. Heads of states always have
>>plans. What they have to deal with often doesn't have anything to do
>>with those plans.
>
>In the abstract, in the past, this was true.
>But in the more concrete, this is changing.
>It started with civil engineering, with blueprints, then it went into
>the more abstract with systems analysis and simulation.
>This happened in the Falklands, the first modern war, and the current
>Crusades.
Why was the Falklands the first modern war? I'd have thought Vietnam.
>You can plan for contingencies. It just also depends on your
>values and what's acceptable. You can see now why Saddam gassed his own
>people. But we have different values. etc.
And hopefully trying to keep those values different.
>
>
>>>>>We are just now beginning to think abstractly (planning, blue prints, etc.)
>>>>Some are. Politicians aren't. Political time is measured in election
>>>>cycles. Which is unfortunate.
>>>
>>>Politicians try to be all things ot all people.
>>
>>Votes are all.
>
>Not quite.
>Once in office the politician has choice.
>You might be happy if you are winning party at her/his decision.
>You might be unhappy if you aren't winning party at her/his decision.
>Rarer:
>You might be happy if you are losing party at her/his decision.
>You might be unhappy if you are losing party at her/his decision.
>
>You can make 2x2 matrices and simple probability statements but the
>peaks will be happiness and winning party and unhappiness and losing
>party. That's the easy part. The other two are much harder to
>characterize. We don't like every party decision on our side
>("My country right or wrong") nor are we always unhappy (otherwise
>we might think about overturning the system [we have this thing lacking
>in Iraq called The Electoral College]).
Here you're describing in part the difference between the UK and US
systems. Tony Blair could be sacked as head of his party at any time, in
which case he ceases to be PM. So he has to keep most of the party on
his side. And he has to win key votes in the House of Commons. If not he
could lose a vote of confidence in which case he has to resign and call
an election (this happened to Callaghan in 1979 - Thatcher won the
following election).
Tony Blair has a constant battle with sections of his party who like him
for winning elections but don't like many of his policies. Now that he's
said he'll resign before the next election he's in a weaker position.
>
>
>>>>>>>A Navigator might be able to tell you where you are, and where you are
>>>>>>>going on the short term. You have to set the course.
>>>>You may be in control.
>>
>>The P.M. isn't the head of state though but the head of the party that
>>has a majority in the House of Commons. That party can change its leader
>>and appoint another who then becomes P.M. That's what happened to
>>Thatcher. Her party dumped her because she was seen as an election
>>liability.
>
>Who pulls the British nuclear trigger? The Queen? Or the PM?
In theory the PM after consultation with the Queen and with the support
of the Commons.
>
>
>>>>>>>This says nothing about time pressure.
>>>>>Control is rarely an absolute thing. Consider a marriage for instance....
>>>>>Just who really controls one? The man in patriarchies? But it's rarely
>>>>>absolute is it? Why is it called matrimony?
>>
>>Civil partnerships (effectively gay marriage) have just become legal
>>here. The first ceremonies were in Belfast yesterday.
>
>Sir Elton!
Just yesterday, in a well publicised civil union.
>
>I have no problems with civil unions. Mr. Kerry didn't either.
It's gone through surprisingly quietly here. The first civil union was
two women in Belfast. Presbyterians stood outside waving placards saying
"No to Sodomy" ! Ian Paisley has set up an anti-sodomy organisation.
>
>>>>>>>>Saw the Narnia film
>>>>>>>>a document signed by the Chief of Secret Police.
>>>>>>the book, published in 1950.
>>>>>>I rather think Stalin was the cause.
>>>>Yep. I thought the film reflected Cold War attitudes more than
>>>>Christianity.
>>>Really? Nt like reading pre-WWII in JRRT?
>>
>>Yes. As well as a chief of secret police there are references to a
>>movement for a free Narnia. And the White Witch is a clear dictator
>>running a totalitarian state where all critics or opponents are
>>disappeared by being turned to stone.
>
>Hmmm, need to read this. No time.
I've just reread the book. It's short and simply written for 8-10 year
old so only takes an hour or so. I think the film is better than the
book though I probably wouldn't have thought so when I last the read the
book at the age of ten.
>
>>>>>Fiction is tanking.
>>>>>How are you able to get along without Woddy Allen, Spike Lee, QT/UT,
>>>>>and the like?
>>>>I see Woody Allen is now making his films in London. I haven't seen one
>>>>of his for many years.
>>>
>>>Some of the US is a bit hostile to him. As Michael Jackson.
>>>I think we also kicked out Polanski as well.
>>
>>I believe Polanski is still wanted by the police. I don't think Jackson
> yes.
>>would that welcome here. Woody Allen is regarded as a serious film
>>maker.
>
>MJ is in the middle east but his famil is still here.
>Some women regard Woody as a child molester.
That seems to have passed people by here.
>
>>>>I don't see many films anyway.
>>>They can be hypnotic.
>>Not when it's an 80 mile round trip to the nearest cinema!
>>
>>I see four or five a year at most in the cinema and a few more on DVD.
>
>Netflix: so my friend Marianne tells me.
I haven't bothered with films on the net yet.
Chris Townsend
<e...@grandshelters.com> writes
>
>> Ed Huesers writes
>>> The distributors keep telling him that he needs a more expensive
>>>one. Marketing...
>
>Chris Townsend wrote:
>> As long as its useful as well...
>
> He's got a good head on his shoulders and believes in testing in the
>extremes. It's supposed to pop out on it own, kind of like the gas
>cartridges that hold up the rear hatch of a car.
Sounds a good idea.
>
>>> You must have a better memory than I. I like the quick draw
>>>feature of having it on my chest strap. Of course, I'm trying to
>>>push it to see if I lose it and it hasn't happened yet.
>
>> Notebooks and pens are essential to my work so I take great care of
>>them.
>
> Yeah, I'm a novice, for sure.
>
>> I lose and mislay other things instead - knives, head lamps, socks.
>
> I'm pretty good at that but did lose the keys one fine winter day.
>They don't go in the pants pocket anymore.
I like the key clips you get in pack pockets.
>
>>>> Indeed. Gold amongst dross.
>
>>> Powder amongst windblown.
>
>> Rarer here than gold.
>
> Runs in veins here. Take the windblown boiler plate up and come down
>the powder.
Here it's usually take the windblown boiler plate up and down!
>It's been cold and just windy enough this winter to give a bunch of
>boiler plate and the avalanche danger is up a bit because of it but the
>base below is pretty consolidated so far.
Still thawing here so very little snow left.
>
>> I'll look out for igloos.
>
> Damn strait, them buggers'll get ya.
If I see one at the moment I'll be astonished :-)
>
Chris Townsend
writes
>In article <RtUGbNMC...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
>Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>This one must have mirrored some where as Expires here is only 2 days
>and I think you sent this after I left for the Sierra.
I did. My expiry is three days.
>
>>>Deja vu, that strange feeling.....
>>>>>>>>Lord of the Rings...
>>>>>>And before Tolkien.
>>>NPR implied that LOTR came first (actually Hobbit).
>>
>>The Hobbit came much earlier. Late 30s.
>
>About 18 years.
I think the key is there was a war in between.
>
>>>My friends point out that Oxford's dark Nationalist Socialist secret was
>>>Hitler's plan to make Oxford New London had he conquered the British Isles.
>>
>>I didn't know that.
>
>That's why he called it part of Oxford's dark past.
>
>And a lot of people read WWII into it. And JRR didn't like that.
A big difference between Tolkien and Lewis. Tolkien hated allegory.
Lewis intentionally wrote allegory.
It's still hard not to think of the descriptions of the dead in the mud
on the Somme when reading the Dead Marshes passage in LOTR.
>Similarly Zanuck set out to make an antiwar film about D-day in Normandy
>and failed.
I don't know that one.
>
>>>>>>>>Harry Potter is, I think, patchy. The third one is the best. The latest
>>>>>>>>film is pretty good.
>>>>>>I think the plot is stronger in the 3rd book and the atmosphere is
>>>>>>darker and more serious. This comes out in the film too. The 4th and 5th
>..
>>>>>Does it have to be dark and serious to be better?
>>>>Not necessarily. But the first two are very much light children's books
>>>>with potentially dark and serious subjects and moments backed away from.
>>>I thought that was the point of the first 2 and the later more recent
>>>ones being for adolescence......
>>
>>Certainly the books should develop in tone as the protagonists get older
>>but there is a big jump between books two and three.
>
>Kids books can still be made from adult material.
And often are. Phillip Pullman's Dark Materials trilogy mixes adult
themes with a fantasy and is much better than HP.
>
>The problem is that our world sends mixed signals about growing up.
>We have very vague notions about the experience (some call it innocence)
>of childhood. Bronowski called it the neoteny of intellect.
The media tend to wrap children up in an idealised world and object if
children don't fit into this.
I'm surprised at how many adults can't remember what childhood was like.
>
>The harsh reality is that a large number of kids walk around with AK-47s
>and RPGs. And 1st world adults cry foul. But they have simplistic
>notions of "Johnny go out and play...."
And simplistic notions of the "third" world.
>
>>>Bilbo as a Hobbit wasn't very deep either.
>>Another children's book.
>
>It was a neat book.
A favourite. Having just reread The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe I'd
say The Hobbit was far better.
>
>>>Sometimes too much is made of depth.
>>
>>Of course. As children's books the first two Harry Potters are fine,
>>certainly as good as the Narnia books though not as good as The Hobbit.
>
>So what happened?
The children are growing up. I think Rowling realised that the tone that
worked with 11 year old protagonists was too childish with 12 year old
ones.
>
>>>But then there is the issue of history....
>>History of?
>
>2 types or kinds:
>Human chronology, and personal chronology (experience).
>The US to credit and shame skips the history (Saddam talking about why
>he invade Kuwait), or the various Balkans faction, and attempts nation
>building, peace keeping, etc.
The UK skips Saddam and Balkan history too.
>
>Mallory:
>>>Yeah, I think I told you Rick think's his grand Dad made summitted.
>>
>>His clothing wouldn't have stopped him.
>
>No, clothing owuld not have stopped him.
There seems to be an assumption by some people that Everest couldn't be
climbed there because modern equipment didn't exist. As though every
attempt is successful now and there are no longer any deaths ......
>
>>>Now calling Mr. Irvine....
>>>
>>>>>The Silicon Valley is a comparatively small community among the tech types.
>>>>I haven't read any Asimov for decades.
>>>Actually I think Asimov's intellectual descendents may be more topics.
>>>Orson Scott Card, Neal Stephenson (fun friend), Kim Stan Robinson (just
>>>in the area, but didn't go see him, he's not far away).
>>
>>I read a Neal Stephenson many years ago and there is a current one lying
>>round the house I haven't picked up yet. Part of a trilogy I think.
>
>Neal is quite a character and has quite a following.
>Oh the Baroque cycle. Maybe one of these days......
>
>I have to get to his Wired article about laying submarine cable.
>It's supposed to be his best writing.
>
>
>>>>>>We both like travelling.
>>>>>We are on similar wavelengths.
>>>>On some things :-). I'm not a scientist.
>>>That's just the day job.
>>
>>I don't have a day job :-)
>
>Wow! YOU are SOOOOO luckyyyyy. 8^)
Being self-employed has its advantages.
>
>
>>>>>>>>Julian Baggini's The Pig That Wants To Be Eaten is entertaining and
>>>>>>>>thought provoking.
>>>>>>100 thought experiments of various kinds (not all moral/ethical ones).
>>>>Baggini is a philosopher.
>>>A strike against him.
>>
>>Maybe. He writes some interesting stuff in newspapers and increasingly
>>appears on the radio.
>
>So does William Demment, no scratch that. He doesn't writing
>interesting stuff.
Another name I don't know.
>
>>The book does provoke thinking.
>
>Naw, it depends. Swamp gas can be made to sound interesting.
The book makes me think, anyway. Even if its only to work out why an
analogy doesn't work.
>
>>>>Some of the experiments are rather artificial.
>>>Artifical or contrived?
>>Both
>
>A limited number of contrived things: is OK, not too many.
>Too many is a waste.
This is the problem with writing a "100 of" book. Some are fillers.
Eugene Miya
Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <C35qf.31$%c1....@news.uswest.net>, Ed Huesers
><e...@grandshelters.com> writes
>>the powder.
>
>Here it's usually take the windblown boiler plate up and down!
Smart man.
Sort of. Depends how hard the boiler plate realy is and steep, and the
run out. Can be scary stuff.
I will tread between the plate and powder.
--
Chris Townsend
writes
Here (Scottish Highlands) the run out is often a boulder field.
>I will tread between the plate and powder.
>
If there is powder here (which is rare) there's usually high avalanche
danger. I have occasionally skied powder filled gullies with low
avalanche danger.
Eugene Miya
>
>Stern is simply a rumour here. We here the news stories about him but
>not the man himself.
As an adult he shold be "experienced." He has authored several books
and has made a film/a film (not high art). But he has attracted quite a
following [he got the model Carol Alt be be partially nude (topless) for
part of his film, yet feminists in the US aren't up in a tiff about him].
He's an Emperor has no clothes type.
>>>satellite phone.
>
>In the backcountry in Nepal using a phone is very expensive so they are
>strictly for emergencies. In Kathmandu you see cell phones everywhere,
Cell phones only work because of the cell tower infrsstructure.
Now some of that is amazing: that I can make a call from Barrow or
Prudhoe Bay, or an 9K ft. peak in Baja. But not other places.
Europe test next month. Maybe. Same phone.
>>Why are Trekkers getting sick? Why could they not take came of
>>themselves? They are like Doug's travel partners. Scott Fisher meat.
>
>One had pneumonia, the other had mild high altitude pulmonary oedema,
>serious AMS and gastro-enteritis.
>
>Trekkers on the Everest Base Camp route are often first timers. Only one
>of my group of 15 had been to the Himalaya before.
The 1st 3 are understandable. The last may be population density.
Hard to say w/o a real hospital which is why you flew them out.
These are serious medical conditions.
>>>>For all of us, it depends on the nature of the trip.
>>New bear stickers, BTW. I should send you a couple with the card.
>
>Sound good.
>
>>I don't mind the TV for sound, or reading a book. Or radio.
>
>I often have the radio or music on while working. It drowns out other
>sounds.
Also try noise cancelling technology.
Unfortunately systems get optimized.
The gun shot head phones aren't much use for 2-dstroke chain saw engines.
And hard to say about the flying headphones, but you do communications
with those.
>>At least the scenery goes by like on European trains. cars and rooms
>>vastly different situations.
>
>Very Long train journeys can be wonderful. My favourite is north in
>winter or spring through Scandinavia from Oslo or Stockholm to Abisko or
>somewhere else in the arctic. It's a 20 or so hour journey and you leave
>the city in the evening, the last views being suburbs and industrial
>estates. Then you sleep in the very comfortable sleeping compartments
>and wake to endless snow covered conifer forests and half-frozen rushing
>rivers crashing down full of ice. Beyond the forests rise the slowly
>approaching white mountains.
That's one I want to try. I also need to do Anchorage to Fairbanks in
winter (weekends only). Plus I need to visit Dennis and Bruce in the
Panhandle one of these days. Right now I have to balance where and what
I want to ski vs. "culture" like the Museum in Munich. Or sitting in a
govt. office in Berne listening (I have no problems other than using the
time).
>>>> recordings on long trips
>>>Difficult to know what you might want.
>>Then it becomes political. Morale, Welfare, and Recration.
>
>Leading groups I am very careful what I write down :-). And I always ask
>groups if it's okay to take and maybe publish photos of them.
Don't publish.
>>>>>The cost of digital cameras is falling fast in general.
>>>The cost seems to lie in backup storage if you're concerned about that
>
>I send everything out on CD these days and get masses of image CDs from
>outdoor companies.
I still have resolution requirements.....
>>Search is my greater concern.
>
>I find this much easier with digital than film. I have many boxes of
>slides waiting to be sorted and filed.
So to plastic shleve holders.
>>becomes useful. You may take that London bombing photo which makes the
>>Time cover....
>
>That's why I always carry a camera :-)
But separate from a phone.
>And why I want a small digital compact.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How fast you can assess and process info is important.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> comprehsion
>>>>>>>>>>Small cameras can provide context.
>>>>preserve your memories: you're all that's left you.
>>>This is why I think of myself as coming from north west England, where I
>>Hard to know which to keep.
>
>Partly depends on who you think you are. I'm aware that in part I don't
>want to come from SE England.
Why's that? You mean like Brighton (no map handy, too far W or not east
enough?).
I mean who are you Chris?
>>>>>>>Northern Ireland is in the news again. A key senior figure in Shin Fein
>>>>>>>has turned out to have been a British spy for the last 20 years.
>>>>>Double agents seem to pop up all the time. John le Carre covered it
>>>There'll always be a new enemy.
>>
>>Sound like the words of a paranoid.
>A realist!
>
>>Have you read Andy Grove's book?
>No. I don't recognise the name.
Only the Paranoid Survive, by Andy Grove, ex-Intel chair, Holocost survivor.
Yep.. We're still in the Dark Ages. The Renaissance is a myth.
>>>>>>Here on Public broadcasting, our man Steves is promoting Northern
>>>>>>Ireland travel. Dollars coming their way.
>>>>>As long as the peace holds.
>>>>As long as HP stil keeps giving jobs; as the Irish have decent English
>>>>skills for phone banks, but as India starts to undercut them and who
>>>>knows about China.
>>Education will be the intersting point.
>
>Indeed. It's odd having someone in India talking about the local weather
>as though they are in the UK.
India was part of the UK. 8^)
Wasn't it something like tea that you guys wanted?
Have to wrap up soon Chris. After tomorrow I am off for a while.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> comprehension as key.
>>>>>>>>>all too easy to absorb data without comprehending it.
>>>>>> Eyes can also be fooled.
>>>>You guys were early camo experts.
>>>Once we worked out that marching round in red wasn't too bright. I think
>>>America taught us that.
>>I think I just saw one of those re-enactment Concord/Lexingotn things.
>>Melodramatic.
>
>Re-enactments seem to be. I've seen UK civil war ones. I haven't been
>to the local Culloden ones.
Well, it's dramatic when you watch and hear cannons fire (one friend did
so for an 1812 Overature recording as a digital sound test).
It's fun when you are the ones firing the cannon (or machine gun, flame
thrower [Pat's not posting], etc.). Slow velocity rounds, you can watch
the projectile fly if you are axially close.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understanding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Assessing comprehending
>>>>>>>>>>>>data mining ?
>>>>>>>>>>Education.
>>>>>>Didn't say anything about plans.
>>This happened in the Falklands, the first modern war, and the current
>>Crusades.
>
>Why was the Falklands the first modern war? I'd have thought Vietnam.
Vietnam had smart weapons come in late. They started with WWII left overs.
It got tacticians thinking. It did start as a proving ground.
But despite minor incursions in the 70s, it wasn't until Argentina made
it's unexpected move that you guys started using your and American
technology. And as you and the world learned: French. Stealth soon
came out, the Soviet and later the Russians and the Chinese watched,
analyzed, were amazed, learned. Every country learned and continues to
learn.
>>You can plan for contingencies. It just also depends on your
>>values and what's acceptable. You can see now why Saddam gassed his own
>>people. But we have different values. etc.
>
>And hopefully trying to keep those values different.
Well, I am not so certain that we can keep some values different.
It might not be healthy Chris. That's why atmospheric testing was stopped.
Some gases aren't bad (could have had even more dead in Moscow).
But who are we to say? Fine balance line Chris.
Not like every views the 5th Commandment the same.
>>>>>>We are just now beginning to think abstractly (planning, blue prints, etc.)
>>>>>Some are. Politicians aren't. Political time is measured in election
>>>>>cycles. Which is unfortunate.
>>>>Politicians try to be all things ot all people.
>>>Votes are all.
>>Not quite.
>>Once in office the politician has choice.
>>You might be happy if you are winning party at her/his decision.
>>You might be unhappy if you aren't winning party at her/his decision.
>>Rarer:
>>You might be happy if you are losing party at her/his decision.
>>You might be unhappy if you are losing party at her/his decision.
>>
>>You can make 2x2 matrices and simple probability statements but the
>
>Here you're describing in part the difference between the UK and US
>systems. Tony Blair could be sacked as head of his party at any time, in
>which case he ceases to be PM. So he has to keep most of the party on
>his side. And he has to win key votes in the House of Commons. If not he
>could lose a vote of confidence in which case he has to resign and call
>an election (this happened to Callaghan in 1979 - Thatcher won the
>following election).
Yes, we have terms and emerging term-limits.
Here the individual politician, not the party rules.
Our Austrian born governator has skipped out on 2 of his own Party's
major metings.
>Tony Blair has a constant battle with sections of his party who like him
>for winning elections but don't like many of his policies. Now that he's
>said he'll resign before the next election he's in a weaker position.
Ah rulers. Not for me.
>>>>>>>>A Navigator might be able to tell you where you are, and where you are
>>>>>>>>going on the short term. You have to set the course.
>>>>>You may be in control.
>>>The P.M. isn't the head of state though but the head of the party that
>>Who pulls the British nuclear trigger? The Queen? Or the PM?
>
>In theory the PM after consultation with the Queen and with the support
>of the Commons.
You guys can do that in lob or throw time?
Is your man/woman followed by a military officer carrying a rugby ball or
soccer ball?
>>>>>>>>This says nothing about time pressure.
>>>>>>Control is rarely an absolute thing. Consider a marriage for instance....
>>>>>>Just who really controls one? The man in patriarchies? But it's rarely
>>>>>>absolute is it? Why is it called matrimony?
>>>Civil partnerships
>>Sir Elton!
>
>Just yesterday, in a well publicised civil union.
Made the news here. The governator invalided ones here.
But he has not cracked down on medical pot clubs.
>>I have no problems with civil unions. Mr. Kerry didn't either.
>
>It's gone through surprisingly quietly here. The first civil union was
>two women in Belfast. Presbyterians stood outside waving placards saying
>"No to Sodomy" ! Ian Paisley has set up an anti-sodomy organisation.
It's mixed in SF: some want the term marriage, others are fine with unions.
Lesbians and sodomy?
>>>>>>>>>Saw the Narnia film
>>>>>>>>>a document signed by the Chief of Secret Police.
Now this host is in an area which apparently has been singled out for
addition international surveillance. Wonder why? Preponderance of
Quakers? I don't it. I do know of few of those involved. They take
their work seriously.
>>>>>>>the book, published in 1950.
>>>>>>>I rather think Stalin was the cause.
>>>>>Yep. I thought the film reflected Cold War attitudes
>>>>Really? Not like reading pre-WWII in JRRT?
>>>Yes. As well as a chief of secret police there are references to a
>>>movement for a free Narnia. And the White Witch is a clear dictator
>>>running a totalitarian state where all critics or opponents are
>>>disappeared by being turned to stone.
>
>I've just reread the book. It's short and simply written for 8-10 year
>old so only takes an hour or so. I think the film is better than the
>book though I probably wouldn't have thought so when I last the read the
>book at the age of ten.
OK see the film and read the book, likely before Potter.
>>>>>>Fiction is tanking.
>>>>>>How are you able to get along without Woddy Allen, Spike Lee, QT/UT,
>>>would that welcome here. Woody Allen is regarded as a serious film
>>>maker.
>>MJ is in the middle east but his famil is still here.
>>Some women regard Woody as a child molester.
>
>That seems to have passed people by here.
Ah! You guys deal with sodomy differently!
>>>>>many films anyway.
>>>>They can be hypnotic.
>>>Not when it's an 80 mile round trip to the nearest cinema!
>>>I see four or five a year at most in the cinema and a few more on DVD.
>>Netflix:
>I haven't bothered with films on the net yet.
No, DVDs by mail.
--
Bill Tuthill
>
> And often are. Phillip Pullman's Dark Materials trilogy mixes adult
> themes with a fantasy and is much better than HP.
Disagree. The Harry Potter books are very funny. I find myself laughing
on almost every page. The Pullman books are, shall I say, a long pull.
Not exactly boring, but only remotely entertaining.
Of the people who have read C.S. Lewis' Narnia series, did anybody like
_The Last Battle_? I did not, and my kids did not.
Or as Men On Films would say, "hated it!" (TV show In Living Color)
Chris Townsend
writes
>In article <o5euoJCH...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
>Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>iPod.
>>>>>>>Walkman.
>>>>Satellite radio sounds interesting.
>>
>>Stern is simply a rumour here. We here the news stories about him but
>>not the man himself.
>
>As an adult he shold be "experienced." He has authored several books
>and has made a film/a film (not high art). But he has attracted quite a
>following [he got the model Carol Alt be be partially nude (topless) for
>part of his film, yet feminists in the US aren't up in a tiff about him].
>He's an Emperor has no clothes type.
He certainly sounds interesting though I suspect some of his shock stuff
would be less shocking here where the main TV stations seem much more
liberal than in the USA.
>
>>>>satellite phone.
>>
>>In the backcountry in Nepal using a phone is very expensive so they are
>>strictly for emergencies. In Kathmandu you see cell phones everywhere,
>
>Cell phones only work because of the cell tower infrsstructure.
>Now some of that is amazing: that I can make a call from Barrow or
>Prudhoe Bay, or an 9K ft. peak in Baja. But not other places.
>Europe test next month. Maybe. Same phone.
I know. It's hard to get a signal in my house :-). & there's many places
in the Scottish hills where signals are unobtainable.
>
>>>Why are Trekkers getting sick? Why could they not take came of
>>>themselves? They are like Doug's travel partners. Scott Fisher meat.
>>
>>One had pneumonia, the other had mild high altitude pulmonary oedema,
>>serious AMS and gastro-enteritis.
>>
>>Trekkers on the Everest Base Camp route are often first timers. Only one
>>of my group of 15 had been to the Himalaya before.
>
>The 1st 3 are understandable. The last may be population density.
Population density and hygiene certainly. The Everest trail is not a
wilderness trail. In fact I think it's the most crowded trail I've ever
hiked. We met hundreds of people every day, as well as passing through
many villages. Namche is a small town. There are lodges all along the
route, right up to 5100 metres.
>Hard to say w/o a real hospital which is why you flew them out.
>These are serious medical conditions.
Hence the helicopter. There are good hospitals in Kathmandu.
I don't have much experience of North American railways. I enjoyed Salt
Lake City to Martinez a few years ago.
Increasing amounts of snow in the Alps according to reports. I wish we
had some.
>
>>>>> recordings on long trips
>>>>Difficult to know what you might want.
>>>Then it becomes political. Morale, Welfare, and Recration.
>>
>>Leading groups I am very careful what I write down :-). And I always ask
>>groups if it's okay to take and maybe publish photos of them.
>
>Don't publish.
I never know when a photo may be needed. Just sold one I took over 20
years ago.
>
>>>>>>The cost of digital cameras is falling fast in general.
>>>>The cost seems to lie in backup storage if you're concerned about that
>>
>>I send everything out on CD these days and get masses of image CDs from
>>outdoor companies.
>
>I still have resolution requirements.....
So do I.
>
>>>Search is my greater concern.
>>
>>I find this much easier with digital than film. I have many boxes of
>>slides waiting to be sorted and filed.
>
>So to plastic shleve holders.
I have boxes full of full plastic sleeve holders!
>
>>>becomes useful. You may take that London bombing photo which makes the
>>>Time cover....
>>
>>That's why I always carry a camera :-)
>
>But separate from a phone.
Yep. A "real" camera.
>>And why I want a small digital compact.
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How fast you can assess and process info is important.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> comprehsion
>>>>>>>>>>>Small cameras can provide context.
>>>>>preserve your memories: you're all that's left you.
>>>>This is why I think of myself as coming from north west England, where I
>>>Hard to know which to keep.
>>
>>Partly depends on who you think you are. I'm aware that in part I don't
>>want to come from SE England.
>
>Why's that? You mean like Brighton (no map handy, too far W or not east
>enough?).
Like Hemel Hempstead/Watford - just north of London.
>
>I mean who are you Chris?
Good question :-). I like to think of myself as a northerner, having
been brought up there. I find myself thinking as a Scot sometimes, now
I've lived here 16 years.
>
>
>>>>>>>>Northern Ireland is in the news again. A key senior figure in Shin Fein
>>>>>>>>has turned out to have been a British spy for the last 20 years.
>>>>>>Double agents seem to pop up all the time. John le Carre covered it
>>>>There'll always be a new enemy.
>>>
>>>Sound like the words of a paranoid.
>>A realist!
>>
>>>Have you read Andy Grove's book?
>>No. I don't recognise the name.
>
>Only the Paranoid Survive, by Andy Grove, ex-Intel chair, Holocost survivor.
I'll look out for it.
>
>Yep.. We're still in the Dark Ages. The Renaissance is a myth.
I don't know about a myth but the idea that the Renaissance changed
everything isn't true. Renaissance ideals do exist.
>
>
>>>>>>>Here on Public broadcasting, our man Steves is promoting Northern
>>>>>>>Ireland travel. Dollars coming their way.
>>>>>>As long as the peace holds.
>>>>>As long as HP stil keeps giving jobs; as the Irish have decent English
>>>>>skills for phone banks, but as India starts to undercut them and who
>>>>>knows about China.
>>>Education will be the intersting point.
>>
>>Indeed. It's odd having someone in India talking about the local weather
>>as though they are in the UK.
>
>India was part of the UK. 8^)
Of course. That's why they speak English and can do work like this so
easily.
>Wasn't it something like tea that you guys wanted?
That was from China.
>Have to wrap up soon Chris. After tomorrow I am off for a while.
I'm home over the holidays. Work except for Xmas and Boxing Day. Have a
good trip. You'll be closer for a time.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> comprehension as key.
>>>>>>>>>>all too easy to absorb data without comprehending it.
>>>>>>> Eyes can also be fooled.
>>>>>You guys were early camo experts.
>>>>Once we worked out that marching round in red wasn't too bright. I think
>>>>America taught us that.
>>>I think I just saw one of those re-enactment Concord/Lexingotn things.
>>>Melodramatic.
>>
>>Re-enactments seem to be. I've seen UK civil war ones. I haven't been
>>to the local Culloden ones.
>
>Well, it's dramatic when you watch and hear cannons fire (one friend did
>so for an 1812 Overature recording as a digital sound test).
>It's fun when you are the ones firing the cannon (or machine gun, flame
>thrower [Pat's not posting], etc.). Slow velocity rounds, you can watch
>the projectile fly if you are axially close.
I've heard cannons fire at military parades but never fired one myself.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understanding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Assessing comprehending
>>>>>>>>>>>>>data mining ?
>>>>>>>>>>>Education.
>>>>>>>Didn't say anything about plans.
>>>This happened in the Falklands, the first modern war, and the current
>>>Crusades.
>>
>>Why was the Falklands the first modern war? I'd have thought Vietnam.
>
>Vietnam had smart weapons come in late. They started with WWII left overs.
>It got tacticians thinking. It did start as a proving ground.
>But despite minor incursions in the 70s, it wasn't until Argentina made
>it's unexpected move that you guys started using your and American
>technology. And as you and the world learned: French. Stealth soon
>came out, the Soviet and later the Russians and the Chinese watched,
>analyzed, were amazed, learned. Every country learned and continues to
>learn.
>
>>>You can plan for contingencies. It just also depends on your
>>>values and what's acceptable. You can see now why Saddam gassed his own
>>>people. But we have different values. etc.
>>
>>And hopefully trying to keep those values different.
>
>Well, I am not so certain that we can keep some values different.
I'm not certain either. And not always hopeful.
>It might not be healthy Chris. That's why atmospheric testing was stopped.
>Some gases aren't bad (could have had even more dead in Moscow).
>But who are we to say? Fine balance line Chris.
>Not like every views the 5th Commandment the same.
Fine balance line indeed. Easy to tip over.
>
>>>>>>>We are just now beginning to think abstractly (planning, blue
>>>>>>>prints, etc.)
>>>>>>Some are. Politicians aren't. Political time is measured in election
>>>>>>cycles. Which is unfortunate.
>>>>>Politicians try to be all things ot all people.
>>>>Votes are all.
>>>Not quite.
>>>Once in office the politician has choice.
>>>You might be happy if you are winning party at her/his decision.
>>>You might be unhappy if you aren't winning party at her/his decision.
>>>Rarer:
>>>You might be happy if you are losing party at her/his decision.
>>>You might be unhappy if you are losing party at her/his decision.
>>>
>>>You can make 2x2 matrices and simple probability statements but the
>>
>>Here you're describing in part the difference between the UK and US
>>systems. Tony Blair could be sacked as head of his party at any time, in
>>which case he ceases to be PM. So he has to keep most of the party on
>>his side. And he has to win key votes in the House of Commons. If not he
>>could lose a vote of confidence in which case he has to resign and call
>>an election (this happened to Callaghan in 1979 - Thatcher won the
>>following election).
>
>Yes, we have terms and emerging term-limits.
I wish we had terms. Maybe two for a PM. As it is, as long as you win
elections you can stay in power as long as you like.
>Here the individual politician, not the party rules.
The opposite here.
>Our Austrian born governator has skipped out on 2 of his own Party's
>major metings.
And fallen out with Austria.
>
>>Tony Blair has a constant battle with sections of his party who like him
>>for winning elections but don't like many of his policies. Now that he's
>>said he'll resign before the next election he's in a weaker position.
>
>Ah rulers. Not for me.
Nor me.
>
>>>>>>>>>A Navigator might be able to tell you where you are, and where you are
>>>>>>>>>going on the short term. You have to set the course.
>>>>>>You may be in control.
>>>>The P.M. isn't the head of state though but the head of the party that
>>>Who pulls the British nuclear trigger? The Queen? Or the PM?
>>
>>In theory the PM after consultation with the Queen and with the support
>>of the Commons.
>
>You guys can do that in lob or throw time?
No.
>
>Is your man/woman followed by a military officer carrying a rugby ball or
>soccer ball?
Sometimes.
>
>>>>>>>>>This says nothing about time pressure.
>>>>>>>Control is rarely an absolute thing. Consider a marriage for
>>>>>>>instance....
>>>>>>>Just who really controls one? The man in patriarchies? But it's rarely
>>>>>>>absolute is it? Why is it called matrimony?
>>>>Civil partnerships
>>>Sir Elton!
>>
>>Just yesterday, in a well publicised civil union.
>
>Made the news here. The governator invalided ones here.
>But he has not cracked down on medical pot clubs.
The last have been cracked down on here.
>
>>>I have no problems with civil unions. Mr. Kerry didn't either.
>>
>>It's gone through surprisingly quietly here. The first civil union was
>>two women in Belfast. Presbyterians stood outside waving placards saying
>>"No to Sodomy" ! Ian Paisley has set up an anti-sodomy organisation.
>
>It's mixed in SF: some want the term marriage, others are fine with unions.
Some want the term marriage here but most are glad to have civil unions,
which are important in terms of inheritance, house ownership, pensions
and more. Without a civil union a partner has no rights to the assets of
the other.
>Lesbians and sodomy?
Exactly :-)
>
>>>>>>>>>>Saw the Narnia film
>>>>>>>>>>a document signed by the Chief of Secret Police.
>Now this host is in an area which apparently has been singled out for
>addition international surveillance. Wonder why? Preponderance of
>Quakers? I don't it. I do know of few of those involved. They take
>their work seriously.
>>>>>>>>the book, published in 1950.
>>>>>>>>I rather think Stalin was the cause.
>>>>>>Yep. I thought the film reflected Cold War attitudes
>>>>>Really? Not like reading pre-WWII in JRRT?
>>>>Yes. As well as a chief of secret police there are references to a
>>>>movement for a free Narnia. And the White Witch is a clear dictator
>>>>running a totalitarian state where all critics or opponents are
>>>>disappeared by being turned to stone.
>>
>>I've just reread the book. It's short and simply written for 8-10 year
>>old so only takes an hour or so. I think the film is better than the
>>book though I probably wouldn't have thought so when I last the read the
>>book at the age of ten.
>
>OK see the film and read the book, likely before Potter.
Takes much less time than Potter as we're only on the first film. Seven
are planned.
>
>>>>>>>Fiction is tanking.
>>>>>>>How are you able to get along without Woddy Allen, Spike Lee, QT/UT,
>>>>would that welcome here. Woody Allen is regarded as a serious film
>>>>maker.
>>>MJ is in the middle east but his famil is still here.
>>>Some women regard Woody as a child molester.
>>
>>That seems to have passed people by here.
>
>Ah! You guys deal with sodomy differently!
>
>>>>>>many films anyway.
>>>>>They can be hypnotic.
>>>>Not when it's an 80 mile round trip to the nearest cinema!
>>>>I see four or five a year at most in the cinema and a few more on DVD.
>>>Netflix:
>>I haven't bothered with films on the net yet.
>
>No, DVDs by mail.
>
Ah. I have bought a few from amazon.
Chris Townsend
>Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> And often are. Phillip Pullman's Dark Materials trilogy mixes adult
>> themes with a fantasy and is much better than HP.
>
>Disagree. The Harry Potter books are very funny. I find myself laughing
>on almost every page. The Pullman books are, shall I say, a long pull.
>Not exactly boring, but only remotely entertaining.
I like the HP books, especially the third, but I only find some parts
funny. The third and fourth books are far too long. I got very bored in
places. Pullman requires more effort and thought but I found them more
satisfying. I'll read them again. I doubt I'll bother with Harry Potter.
>
>Of the people who have read C.S. Lewis' Narnia series, did anybody like
>_The Last Battle_? I did not, and my kids did not.
I don't think I liked it! I haven't read it for over forty years :-). I
remember I didn't like The Horse And His Boy, though I can't remember
why.
Eugene Miya
If you want thread continuity be mindful. I want to avoid archive searches.
>>>>Deja vu, that strange feeling.....
>>>>>>>>>Lord of the Rings...
>>>>>>>And before Tolkien.
>>>>NPR implied that LOTR came first (actually Hobbit).
>>>The Hobbit came much earlier. Late 30s.
>>About 18 years.
>I think the key is there was a war in between.
The issue was the spacing of volumes.
>>>>My friends point out that Oxford's dark Nationalist Socialist secret was
>>>>Hitler's plan to make Oxford New London had he conquered the British Isles.
>>>I didn't know that.
>>That's why he called it part of Oxford's dark past.
>>And a lot of people read WWII into it. And JRR didn't like that.
>
>A big difference between Tolkien and Lewis. Tolkien hated allegory.
>Lewis intentionally wrote allegory.
Allegory is lost to non-English speakers.
I appreciate what Douglas Adams said that he missed in the USA was irony.
The US may be hay seeds, but life is nicely simpler here.
It's like Joyce and Hemmingway in a way, the problem is that Joyce
should never take on a fight bigger than Ernest.
>It's still hard not to think of the descriptions of the dead in the mud
>on the Somme when reading the Dead Marshes passage in LOTR.
Well, you merely needed to see photos during the February of the Tet
Offensive to see the Marines at Khe Sanh.
Photos fail to caputre the smell of fermenting human bodies.
This is what is nice about nuclear weapons. They are so clean.
They merely simply vaporize all the water in human bodies very fast
Very clean. At least air bursts.
;^)
>>Similarly Zanuck set out to make an antiwar film about D-day in Normandy
>>and failed.
>
>I don't know that one.
The Longest Day made in the early 1960s, in an era where color was taking
over finally (except art films), in B&W. It was a big multinational (UK
immensely involved as well as French and Germans) production.
Kubrick's Dr. Strangelove was a similar time but it's black comedy
stung Americans a little too much: perhaps the funniest movie every made.
The problem is that the hawks loved it.
Misinterpreted by them. You can be too sophisticated in movie making.
Scenes likely happened too fast. And Americans don't have enough
context: like the Rangers who stormed Pont du Hoc (my dad actually knew
a couple of the real ones) who gun down unarmed surrendering Germans.
Then ask each other: I wonder what "Bitte! Bitte!" means?
So it's not a good idea to fight Americans w/o knowing English.
We WILL gun you down otherwise.
>>>>>>>>>Harry Potter is, I think, patchy. The third one is the best. The latest
>>>>>>>>>film is pretty good.
>>>>>>>I think the plot is stronger in the 3rd book and the atmosphere is
>>>>>>>darker and more serious. This comes out in the film too. The 4th and 5th
>>>>>>Does it have to be dark and serious to be better?
>>>>>Not necessarily. But the first two are very much light children's books
>>>>>with potentially dark and serious subjects and moments backed away from.
>>>Certainly the books should develop in tone as the protagonists get older
>>>but there is a big jump between books two and three.
>>Kids books can still be made from adult material.
>
>And often are. Phillip Pullman's Dark Materials trilogy mixes adult
>themes with a fantasy and is much better than HP.
The problem is that the subject matter of the book remain in the
juvenile tone or whatever you want to call it. That the characters
progress as the audience/readership progresses is merely a sliding window.
What constitutes an adult theme? Sex? The ugly underbelly of society?
War? Or is the separation of so called adult themes really more a
misguided Victorian prudishness? Stuff the French laughs at.
People die in the outdoors. Didn't a house fall on and kill a witch in
one notable story? We are "sheltering" kids from death?
When kids are carrying AKs and SKSes elsewhere in the world (see the
beginning of Lord of War).
>>The problem is that our world sends mixed signals about growing up.
>>We have very vague notions about the experience (some call it innocence)
>>of childhood. Bronowski called it the neoteny of intellect.
>The media tend to wrap children up in an idealised world and object if
>children don't fit into this.
It's not the media. It's a certain upper class mentality (I won't use
elite) held largely by certain women. Don't get wrong: ideals are good,
reaching them is the issue.
>I'm surprised at how many adults can't remember what childhood was like.
Well, there are 2 aspects:
1) how well do you really remember your childhood?
2) what do you remember? (the content)
Childhood isn't always what its cracked up to be.
Piaget has good stuff about early human development which is
adult irrational but kid rational. Lots of adults don't make it past there.
Is the earth flat?
I had a pretty good, better than most of the world, childhood. Far from
perfect, my parents likely could have done more. I grew up in California
at a time when the educaiton system here was expanding. There were
adverse times as well: there was the Cold war. I did play with my
limited number of little Army men (this was before GI Joe).
Then I discovered libraries.
So what is it that you were thinking? How was yours.
"Describe in single words only the good things that come into your mind
about your mother."
>>The harsh reality is that a large number of kids walk around with AK-47s
>>and RPGs. And 1st world adults cry foul. But they have simplistic
>>notions of "Johnny go out and play...."
>
>And simplistic notions of the "third" world.
The third world has parts which are very basic: you live or you get shot
and die.
Is life cheap?
We would like to think not.
The reality is that it is. It's not the value we think it is,
it's the value of the person potentially aiming a weapon at you.
People in the 1st world are getting tired of giving aid.
It helps not being European some times. One the other hand begin
surrounded by European descendents can be like being one of the Indians.
>>>>Bilbo as a Hobbit wasn't very deep either.
>>>Another children's book. a neat book.
>A favourite. Having just reread The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe I'd
>say The Hobbit was far better.
Hmmmm. Seem and sounds calmer. Excepting Sting of course.
>>>>Sometimes too much is made of depth.
>>>Of course. As children's books the first two Harry Potters are fine,
>>>certainly as good as the Narnia books though not as good as The Hobbit.
>>So what happened?
>
>The children are growing up. I think Rowling realised that the tone that
>worked with 11 year old protagonists was too childish with 12 year old
>ones.
Yes, this is true (above). And other writers spoke of full or
developing bosoms in the past (e.g. Hester...).
>>>>But then there is the issue of history....
>>>History of?
>>2 types or kinds:
>>Human chronology, and personal chronology (experience).
>>The US to credit and shame skips the history (Saddam talking about why
>>he invade Kuwait), or the various Balkans faction, and attempts nation
>>building, peace keeping, etc.
>
>The UK skips Saddam and Balkan history too.
Yes, that mess is continuing. He's fallen and he can't get up.
I wonder how it will all end?
That's humankind.
The question is also personal STM. That's what's in the cache.
Otherwise called context.
>>Mallory:
>>>>Yeah, I think I told you Rick think's his grand Dad made summitted.
>>>His clothing wouldn't have stopped him.
>>No, clothing owuld not have stopped him.
>
>There seems to be an assumption by some people that Everest couldn't be
>climbed there because modern equipment didn't exist. As though every
>attempt is successful now and there are no longer any deaths ......
Well for Mallory, "modern" gear helped, just not enough.
Gary makes this point that Scott as well had the most modern gear.
No deaths is merely naive, arm chair lack of experience.
At least the Germans had no assumptions of that type on
invincibility/immortality. They have a different one.
>>>>Now calling Mr. Irvine....
...
>>>I don't have a day job :-)
>>Wow! YOU are SOOOOO luckyyyyy. 8^)
>
>Being self-employed has its advantages.
My dad was. He had his ups and downs. Mom bore the brunt.
But then he had to fight in France.
>>>>>>>>>Julian Baggini's The Pig That Wants To Be Eaten is entertaining and
>>>>>>>>>thought provoking.
>>>>>>>100 thought experiments of various kinds (not all moral/ethical ones).
>>>>>Baggini is a philosopher.
>>>>A strike against him.
>>>Maybe. He writes some interesting stuff in newspapers and increasingly
>>>appears on the radio.
>>So does William Demment, no scratch that. He doesn't writing
>>interesting stuff.
>
>Another name I don't know.
Typo:
Consciousness explained / Daniel C. Dennett
He coauthored a number of articles and a book or 2 with:
Douglas R. Hofstadter.
Doug I like. Daniel: is a waste of time. Just like Gary Snyder.
>>>The book does provoke thinking.
>>Naw, it depends. Swamp gas can be made to sound interesting.
>
>The book makes me think, anyway. Even if its only to work out why an
>analogy doesn't work.
One thing I knew when I started grad school was raised on my first day
but I missed (late) given by a friend now on panel 16: the example of
Moire patterns. They look good/interesting, but unless you are a
mathematician studying them: they have no application/no use.
We live in a world of use. Now that's one of my strawmen.
>>>>>Some of the experiments are rather artificial.
>>>>Artifical or contrived?
>>>Both
>>A limited number of contrived things: is OK, not too many.
>>Too many is a waste.
>
>This is the problem with writing a "100 of" book. Some are fillers.
A fluff bit.
>>>>>>the creature breed to be eaten.
--
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Eugene Miya
>>>Here it's usually take the windblown boiler plate up and down!
>>Smart man.
>>Sort of. Depends how hard the boiler plate realy is and steep, and the
>>run out. Can be scary stuff.
In article <H5qlogRX...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Here (Scottish Highlands) the run out is often a boulder field.
Ski well.
Or as the UK's own Joe Brown said:
Better we rise our skill than lower the climb.
or descent in this case.
>If there is powder here (which is rare) there's usually high avalanche
>danger. I have occasionally skied powder filled gullies with low
>avalanche danger.
Yes, it tends to work out that way. Encourage people to stay home.
Or visit Vail.
--
Eugene Miya
Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> And often are. Phillip Pullman's Dark Materials trilogy mixes adult
>>> themes with a fantasy and is much better than HP.
In message <43aa...@news.meer.net>, Bill Tuthill <c...@spam.co> writes
>>Disagree. The Harry Potter books are very funny. I find myself laughing
>>on almost every page. The Pullman books are, shall I say, a long pull.
>>Not exactly boring, but only remotely entertaining.
>
>I like the HP books, especially the third, but I only find some parts
>funny. The third and fourth books are far too long. I got very bored in
>places. Pullman requires more effort and thought but I found them more
>satisfying. I'll read them again. I doubt I'll bother with Harry Potter.
I respect Bill's reading choice.
The issue is getting around to getting a text (non-gift) as time. Hard.
Anyways, have to deal with the fire place tomorrow evening.
>>Of the people who have read C.S. Lewis' Narnia series, did anybody like
>>_The Last Battle_? I did not, and my kids did not.
>
>I don't think I liked it! I haven't read it for over forty years :-). I
>remember I didn't like The Horse And His Boy, though I can't remember
>why.
An issue of author completeness. Do we have to read everything?
>>Or as Men On Films would say, "hated it!" (TV show In Living Color)
--
Eugene Miya
>>>>>>>>iPod.
>>>>>>>>Walkman.
>>>>>Satellite radio sounds interesting.
>>>Stern is simply a rumour here.
>>As an adult he shold be "experienced."
In article <d2ATLeT+...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>He certainly sounds interesting though I suspect some of his shock stuff
>would be less shocking here where the main TV stations seem much more
>liberal than in the USA.
You guys aren't a whole lot more liberal than the US. TV is fairly
conservative all around. Sex channels are fairly conservative economically.
Truly radical, liberl, exploratory TV is local programing.
>>>>>satellite phone.
>>Cell phones
>
>I know. It's hard to get a signal in my house :-). & there's many places
>in the Scottish hills where signals are unobtainable.
Hard to get a signal in my house in the Valley. We have phone
capability being diminished.
>>>>Why are Trekkers getting sick? Why could they not take came of
>>>>themselves? They are like Doug's travel partners. Scott Fisher meat.
>>>One had pneumonia, the other had mild high altitude pulmonary oedema,
>>>serious AMS and gastro-enteritis.
>>>Trekkers on the Everest Base Camp route are often first timers. Only one
>>>of my group of 15 had been to the Himalaya before.
>>The 1st 3 are understandable. The last may be population density.
>
>Population density and hygiene certainly. The Everest trail is not a
>wilderness trail. In fact I think it's the most crowded trail I've ever
>hiked. We met hundreds of people every day, as well as passing through
>many villages. Namche is a small town. There are lodges all along the
>route, right up to 5100 metres.
In a way, you should not have to worry about hygiene.
Sounds like Mt. Fuji in summer. The time to visit is the off season.
Watson went near there (he had a good comment about bare feet).
>>Hard to say w/o a real hospital which is why you flew them out.
>>These are serious medical conditions.
>Hence the helicopter. There are good hospitals in Kathmandu.
>>Also try noise cancelling technology.
>>Unfortunately systems get optimized.
>>The gun shot head phones aren't much use for 2-dstroke chain saw engines.
>>>Very Long train journeys can be wonderful. My favourite is north in
>>>winter or spring through Scandinavia from Oslo or Stockholm to Abisko or
>>>somewhere else in the arctic. It's a 20 or so hour journey and you leave
>>That's one I want to try. I also need to do Anchorage to Fairbanks in
>>winter (weekends only). Plus I need to visit Dennis and Bruce in the
>>Panhandle one of these days. Right now I have to balance where and what
>>I want to ski vs. "culture" like the Museum in Munich. Or sitting in a
>>govt. office in Berne listening (I have no problems other than using the
>>time).
>
>I don't have much experience of North American railways. I enjoyed Salt
>Lake City to Martinez a few years ago.
I have to do the Zephyr wind. We don't have many railways, we have sky
trains. Actually, bush flying is interesting. It's amazing we can do it.
>Increasing amounts of snow in the Alps according to reports. I wish we
>had some.
Rain to 8K ft. here.
>>>>>> recordings on long trips
>>>>>Difficult to know what you might want.
>>>>Then it becomes political. Morale, Welfare, and Recration.
>>>Leading groups I am very careful what I write down :-). And I always ask
>>>groups if it's okay to take and maybe publish photos of them.
>>Don't publish.
>
>I never know when a photo may be needed. Just sold one I took over 20
>years ago.
I am thinking to have all mine destroyed after I go.
>>>>>>>The cost of digital cameras is falling fast in general.
>>>I send everything out on CD these days
>>>>Search is my greater concern.
>>>I find this much easier with digital than film. I have many boxes of
>>>slides waiting to be sorted and filed.
>>So to plastic shleve holders.
>I have boxes full of full plastic sleeve holders!
I place mine in notebooks except those in Carosels and holding cubes.
>>>>becomes useful. You may take that London bombing photo which makes the
>>>>Time cover....
>>>That's why I always carry a camera :-)
>>But separate from a phone.
>
>Yep. A "real" camera.
Which might stop functioning.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How fast you can assess and process info is important.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> comprehsion
>>>>>>>>>>>>Small cameras can provide context.
>>>>>>preserve your memories: you're all that's left you.
>>>>>This is why I think of myself as coming from north west England, where I
>>>I don't want to come from SE England.
>>Why's that? You mean like Brighton (no map handy, too far W or not east
>>enough?).
>
>Like Hemel Hempstead/Watford - just north of London.
So London is SE. Enough. I was thinking that you were thinking of
obscure places like Ipswich.
>>I mean who are you Chris?
>
>Good question :-). I like to think of myself as a northerner, having
>been brought up there. I find myself thinking as a Scot sometimes, now
>I've lived here 16 years.
And your locals, who were born there don't accept you?
You and lone.wolf Soles should share a beer.
>>>>>>>>>Northern Ireland is in the news again. A key senior figure in Shin Fein
>>>>>>>Double agents seem to pop up all the time. John le Carre covered it
>>>>>There'll always be a new enemy.
>>>>Sound like the words of a paranoid.
>>>>Have you read Andy Grove's book?
>>Only the Paranoid Survive, by Andy Grove, ex-Intel chair, Holocost survivor.
>
>I'll look out for it.
I have not finished that loaner.
Parts are interesting.
>>Yep.. We're still in the Dark Ages. The Renaissance is a myth.
>
>I don't know about a myth but the idea that the Renaissance changed
>everything isn't true. Renaissance ideals do exist.
Mythic ideals.
>>>>>>>>Here on Public broadcasting, our man Steves is promoting Northern
>>>>>>>>Ireland travel. Dollars coming their way.
>>>>>>>As long as the peace holds.
>>>>>>As long as HP stil keeps giving jobs; as the Irish have decent English
>>India was part of the UK. 8^)
>
>Of course. That's why they speak English and can do work like this so
>easily.
Not only speak but prefer to avoid miscommunicating in various local tongues.
>>Wasn't it something like tea that you guys wanted?
>That was from China.
1.25 billion people.
>>Have to wrap up soon Chris. After tomorrow I am off for a while.
>
>I'm home over the holidays. Work except for Xmas and Boxing Day. Have a
>good trip. You'll be closer for a time.
Check again end Jan or Feb. Closerer still. Flying over on the way back.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> comprehension as key.
>>>>>>>>>>>all too easy to absorb data without comprehending it.
>>>>>>>> Eyes can also be fooled.
>>>>>>You guys were early camo experts.
>>>>>Once we worked out that marching round in red wasn't too bright. I think
>>>>>America taught us that.
>>Well, it's dramatic when you watch and hear cannons fire (one friend did
>>so for an 1812 Overature recording as a digital sound test).
>>It's fun when you are the ones firing the cannon (or machine gun, flame
>>thrower [Pat's not posting], etc.). Slow velocity rounds, you can watch
>>the projectile fly if you are axially close.
>
>I've heard cannons fire at military parades but never fired one myself.
It's not the noise which counts. Parades are blanks. It's the
receiving end which is interesting. Not hard. Can be arranged.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understanding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Assessing comprehending
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>data mining ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>Education.
>>>>>>>>plans.
>>>>You can plan for contingencies. It just also depends on your
>>>>values and what's acceptable. You can see now why Saddam gassed his own
>>>>people. But we have different values. etc.
>>>And hopefully trying to keep those values different.
>>
>>Well, I am not so certain that we can keep some values different.
>
>I'm not certain either. And not always hopeful.
Some one's values will have to change.
Otherwise we will have more Rodney Kings.
>>It might not be healthy Chris. That's why atmospheric testing was stopped.
>>Some gases aren't bad (could have had even more dead in Moscow).
>>But who are we to say? Fine balance line Chris.
>>Not like every views the 5th Commandment the same.
>
>Fine balance line indeed. Easy to tip over.
The way to win is not to play the game.
>>>>>>>>We are just now beginning to think abstractly (planning, blue
>>>>>>>>prints, etc.)
>>>>>>>Some are. Politicians aren't. Political time is measured in election
>>>>>>>cycles. Which is unfortunate.
>>>>>>Politicians try to be all things ot all people.
>>>Tony Blair could be sacked as head of his party at any time, in
>>Yes, we have terms and emerging term-limits.
>
>I wish we had terms. Maybe two for a PM. As it is, as long as you win
>elections you can stay in power as long as you like.
Popular != right.
>>Here the individual politician, not the party rules.
>The opposite here.
>>Our Austrian born governator has skipped out on 2 of his own Party's
>>major metings.
>
>And fallen out with Austria.
He just allowed an execution to happen.
Capital punishment is a sensitive issue now.
>>>>>>>>>>A Navigator might be able to tell you where you are, and where you are
>>>>>>>>>>going on the short term. You have to set the course.
>>>>>>>You may be in control.
>>>>>The P.M. isn't the head of state though but the head of the party that
>>>>Who pulls the British nuclear trigger? The Queen? Or the PM?
>>>In theory the PM after consultation with the Queen and with the support
>>>of the Commons.
>>
>>You guys can do that in lob or throw time?
>
>No.
Then why did you guys build Trident subs?
I thought we gave you guys our technology
>>Is your man/woman followed by a military officer carrying a rugby ball or
>>soccer ball?
>Sometimes.
Does BBC or ITN show the person standing aside inthe background?
>>>>>>>>>>This says nothing about time pressure.
>>>>>>>>Control is rarely an absolute thing. Consider a marriage for
>>>>>>>>Just who really controls one? The man in patriarchies? But it's rarely
>>>>>Civil partnerships
>>>>Sir Elton!
>>>Just yesterday, in a well publicised civil union.
>>Made the news here. The governator invalidated ones here.
>>But he has not cracked down on medical pot clubs.
>The last have been cracked down on here.
Well they are in Denmark....
>>>>I have no problems with civil unions. Mr. Kerry didn't either.
>>>It's gone through surprisingly quietly here. The first civil union was
>>>two women in Belfast. Presbyterians stood outside waving placards saying
>>>"No to Sodomy" ! Ian Paisley has set up an anti-sodomy organisation.
>>It's mixed in SF: some want the term marriage, others are fine with unions.
>
>Some want the term marriage here but most are glad to have civil unions,
>which are important in terms of inheritance, house ownership, pensions
>and more. Without a civil union a partner has no rights to the assets of
>the other.
Getting into a hospital and seeing some is sometimes not trivial.
>>Lesbians and sodomy?
>Exactly :-)
I will let that fly 1 more round.
>>>>>>>>>>>Saw the Narnia film
>>>>>>>>>>>a document signed by the Chief of Secret Police.
...
>>OK see the film and read the book, likely before Potter.
>
>Takes much less time than Potter as we're only on the first film. Seven
>are planned.
Fewer than Bond. James Bond.
>>>>>>>>Fiction is tanking.
>>>>>>>many films anyway.
>>>>>>They can be hypnotic.
>>>>>Not when it's an 80 mile round trip to the nearest cinema!
>>>>>I see four or five a year at most in the cinema and a few more on DVD.
>>No, DVDs by mail.
>Ah. I have bought a few from amazon.
Yes, I have now broken down and got a few; Phoenix is a inexpensive one.
>>>>Netflix:
rental.
--
Chris Townsend
writes
>>>>> boiler plate ... Xxxxxxx.
>
>>>>Here it's usually take the windblown boiler plate up and down!
>>>Smart man.
>>>Sort of. Depends how hard the boiler plate realy is and steep, and the
>>>run out. Can be scary stuff.
>
>In article <H5qlogRX...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
>Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>Here (Scottish Highlands) the run out is often a boulder field.
>
>Ski well.
>
>Or as the UK's own Joe Brown said:
> Better we rise our skill than lower the climb.
>or descent in this case.
Good quote. Joe was interviewed in a UK climbing magazine recently. He's
still climbing. He argued that chalk was aid.
>
>>If there is powder here (which is rare) there's usually high avalanche
>>danger. I have occasionally skied powder filled gullies with low
>>avalanche danger.
>
>Yes, it tends to work out that way. Encourage people to stay home.
>Or visit Vail.
>
Tignes.
Chris Townsend
writes
>In article <PIi3k+F0...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
>Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>Expires here is only 2 days
>>I did. My expiry is three days.
>
>If you want thread continuity be mindful. I want to avoid archive searches.
So do I. Three seems a reasonable time. If I'm away I just miss out.
There are too many threads in the newsgroups I download anyway, even
ones I'm interested in.
>
>>>>>Deja vu, that strange feeling.....
>>>>>>>>>>Lord of the Rings...
>>>>>>>>And before Tolkien.
>>>>>NPR implied that LOTR came first (actually Hobbit).
>>>>The Hobbit came much earlier. Late 30s.
>>>About 18 years.
>>I think the key is there was a war in between.
>
>The issue was the spacing of volumes.
True. I think reading them you would know that The Hobbit came first.
>
>
>>>>>My friends point out that Oxford's dark Nationalist Socialist secret was
>>>>>Hitler's plan to make Oxford New London had he conquered the British Isles.
>>>>I didn't know that.
>>>That's why he called it part of Oxford's dark past.
>>>And a lot of people read WWII into it. And JRR didn't like that.
>>
>>A big difference between Tolkien and Lewis. Tolkien hated allegory.
>>Lewis intentionally wrote allegory.
>
>Allegory is lost to non-English speakers.
>I appreciate what Douglas Adams said that he missed in the USA was irony.
>The US may be hay seeds, but life is nicely simpler here.
Irony can be good but it can also turn superficial and cynical. "Being
ironic" is used to justify almost anything now.
>It's like Joyce and Hemmingway in a way, the problem is that Joyce
>should never take on a fight bigger than Ernest.
Joyce ended up writing incomprehensible puzzles. Hemingway powerful
stories. Neither are a favourite but forced to pick I'd choose
Hemingway. Michael Palin wrote a book about him.
>
>>It's still hard not to think of the descriptions of the dead in the mud
>>on the Somme when reading the Dead Marshes passage in LOTR.
>
>Well, you merely needed to see photos during the February of the Tet
>Offensive to see the Marines at Khe Sanh.
>Photos fail to caputre the smell of fermenting human bodies.
Never smelt humans but decaying deer are pretty rank.
>This is what is nice about nuclear weapons. They are so clean.
>They merely simply vaporize all the water in human bodies very fast
>Very clean. At least air bursts.
>;^)
Well, I guess it's quick for the victims and less unpleasant for the
survivors. The numbers are rather large though and the aftermath hard to
deal with.
>
>>>Similarly Zanuck set out to make an antiwar film about D-day in Normandy
>>>and failed.
>>
>>I don't know that one.
>
>The Longest Day made in the early 1960s, in an era where color was taking
>over finally (except art films), in B&W. It was a big multinational (UK
>immensely involved as well as French and Germans) production.
I know the title but I've never seen it.
>Kubrick's Dr. Strangelove was a similar time but it's black comedy
>stung Americans a little too much: perhaps the funniest movie every made.
Peter Sellers finest moment.
>
>The problem is that the hawks loved it.
>Misinterpreted by them. You can be too sophisticated in movie making.
>Scenes likely happened too fast. And Americans don't have enough
>context: like the Rangers who stormed Pont du Hoc (my dad actually knew
>a couple of the real ones) who gun down unarmed surrendering Germans.
>Then ask each other: I wonder what "Bitte! Bitte!" means?
Misinterpretation happens here too. There was an anti-racist TV
programme back in the 60s called 'Til Death Us Do Part featuring an
unpleasant racist called Alf Garnett. He became a hero to some people
who thought the programme was praising his views not mocking them. It
was just too subtle for them.
>
>So it's not a good idea to fight Americans w/o knowing English.
>We WILL gun you down otherwise.
I'm sure the Brits have done the same at times.
>
>>>>>>>>>>Harry Potter is, I think, patchy. The third one is the best.
>>>>>>>>>>The latest
>>>>>>>>>>film is pretty good.
>>>>>>>>I think the plot is stronger in the 3rd book and the atmosphere is
>>>>>>>>darker and more serious. This comes out in the film too. The 4th and 5th
>>>>>>>Does it have to be dark and serious to be better?
>>>>>>Not necessarily. But the first two are very much light children's books
>>>>>>with potentially dark and serious subjects and moments backed away from.
>>>>Certainly the books should develop in tone as the protagonists get older
>>>>but there is a big jump between books two and three.
>>>Kids books can still be made from adult material.
>>
>>And often are. Phillip Pullman's Dark Materials trilogy mixes adult
>>themes with a fantasy and is much better than HP.
>
>The problem is that the subject matter of the book remain in the
>juvenile tone or whatever you want to call it. That the characters
>progress as the audience/readership progresses is merely a sliding window.
I think Rowling is making the subject matter less juvenile as the books
develop. Key characters weren't killed in the early ones. Pullman
manages to combine adult and juvenile themes from the start.
>
>What constitutes an adult theme? Sex? The ugly underbelly of society?
>War? Or is the separation of so called adult themes really more a
>misguided Victorian prudishness? Stuff the French laughs at.
>People die in the outdoors. Didn't a house fall on and kill a witch in
>one notable story? We are "sheltering" kids from death?
>When kids are carrying AKs and SKSes elsewhere in the world (see the
>beginning of Lord of War).
Neither Rowling or Pullman shelter kids from death. Pullman deals with
sex, religion, war, violence, relationships, separation, pain, difficult
decisions and more.
>
>>>The problem is that our world sends mixed signals about growing up.
>>>We have very vague notions about the experience (some call it innocence)
>>>of childhood. Bronowski called it the neoteny of intellect.
>>The media tend to wrap children up in an idealised world and object if
>>children don't fit into this.
>
>It's not the media. It's a certain upper class mentality (I won't use
>elite) held largely by certain women. Don't get wrong: ideals are good,
>reaching them is the issue.
"Certain women"? Here I think the media's idealisation of childhood is
definitely a factor.
The right ideals are wonderful and I think just trying to reach them is
usually praiseworthy.
>
>>I'm surprised at how many adults can't remember what childhood was like.
>
>Well, there are 2 aspects:
>1) how well do you really remember your childhood?
And how well do you remember what you don't remember? I remember some of
my childhood. There are large gaps. I remember virtually nothing before
the age of 5 and not much until around 8.
>2) what do you remember? (the content)
There are key events and experiences that I think I remember because of
their importance. I can plot my growing interest in nature and the
outdoors.
I think there is a third aspect:
3) do you remember what it feels like to be ten, thirteen, fifteen?
>
>Childhood isn't always what its cracked up to be.
For too many it's hell.
>Piaget has good stuff about early human development which is
>adult irrational but kid rational. Lots of adults don't make it past there.
>Is the earth flat?
I read Piaget three decades ago. I can't remember much now.
>
>I had a pretty good, better than most of the world, childhood. Far from
>perfect, my parents likely could have done more. I grew up in California
>at a time when the educaiton system here was expanding. There were
>adverse times as well: there was the Cold war. I did play with my
>limited number of little Army men (this was before GI Joe).
>Then I discovered libraries.
>
>So what is it that you were thinking? How was yours.
I think I was very lucky. I was brought up on the edge of the
countryside (not wilderness but with plenty of woods and a coast) and
allowed to wander fairly freely. My parents encouraged my interest in
natural history and books. The education system was expanding and free
and just recovering from post war austerity. And as I became an adult
university education was free.
>
>
> "Describe in single words only the good things that come into your mind
> about your mother."
Quiet. Calm. Reassuring. Gentle. Encouraging. Protective.
How many words?
>
>
>>>The harsh reality is that a large number of kids walk around with AK-47s
>>>and RPGs. And 1st world adults cry foul. But they have simplistic
>>>notions of "Johnny go out and play...."
>>
>>And simplistic notions of the "third" world.
>
>The third world has parts which are very basic: you live or you get shot
>and die.
>
>Is life cheap?
>We would like to think not.
>The reality is that it is. It's not the value we think it is,
>it's the value of the person potentially aiming a weapon at you.
Life has the value we put upon it. That can vary from person to person
and country to country.
>People in the 1st world are getting tired of giving aid.
Doesn't seem to be happening here. Vast sums have been contributed this
year.
>It helps not being European some times. One the other hand begin
>surrounded by European descendents can be like being one of the Indians.
Being solidly European trying to see how non-Europeans see things can be
very difficult. Going to Nepal helped.
Europeans and European Americans seem far apart at present despite very
recent common ancestors.
>
>>>>>Bilbo as a Hobbit wasn't very deep either.
>>>>Another children's book. a neat book.
>>A favourite. Having just reread The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe I'd
>>say The Hobbit was far better.
>
>Hmmmm. Seem and sounds calmer. Excepting Sting of course.
There's nothing like Gollum in The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe. And
the battles and violence are quickly glossed over.
>
>>>>>Sometimes too much is made of depth.
>>>>Of course. As children's books the first two Harry Potters are fine,
>>>>certainly as good as the Narnia books though not as good as The Hobbit.
>>>So what happened?
>>
>>The children are growing up. I think Rowling realised that the tone that
>>worked with 11 year old protagonists was too childish with 12 year old
>>ones.
>
>Yes, this is true (above). And other writers spoke of full or
>developing bosoms in the past (e.g. Hester...).
She is handling adolescence and a growing interest in sex quite well.
She has the problem that the original readers are growing up with her
characters but she has new younger readers too.
>
>>>>>But then there is the issue of history....
>>>>History of?
>>>2 types or kinds:
>>>Human chronology, and personal chronology (experience).
>>>The US to credit and shame skips the history (Saddam talking about why
>>>he invade Kuwait), or the various Balkans faction, and attempts nation
>>>building, peace keeping, etc.
>>
>>The UK skips Saddam and Balkan history too.
>
>Yes, that mess is continuing. He's fallen and he can't get up.
>I wonder how it will all end?
He's making a surprising impact at his trial.
>
>That's humankind.
>The question is also personal STM. That's what's in the cache.
>Otherwise called context.
>
>>>Mallory:
>>>>>Yeah, I think I told you Rick think's his grand Dad made summitted.
>>>>His clothing wouldn't have stopped him.
>>>No, clothing owuld not have stopped him.
>>
>>There seems to be an assumption by some people that Everest couldn't be
>>climbed there because modern equipment didn't exist. As though every
>>attempt is successful now and there are no longer any deaths ......
>
>Well for Mallory, "modern" gear helped, just not enough.
>Gary makes this point that Scott as well had the most modern gear.
But not as good as Amundsen's. Nor was he as well organised.
>No deaths is merely naive, arm chair lack of experience.
>At least the Germans had no assumptions of that type on
>invincibility/immortality. They have a different one.
Everyone who climbs 8000 metre peaks knows the high death rate. They
just think it won't be them.
>
>>>>>Now calling Mr. Irvine....
>...
>>>>I don't have a day job :-)
>>>Wow! YOU are SOOOOO luckyyyyy. 8^)
>>
>>Being self-employed has its advantages.
>
>My dad was. He had his ups and downs. Mom bore the brunt.
>But then he had to fight in France.
Except for the few security isn't one of the advantages of being
self-employed.
>
>>>>>>>>>>Julian Baggini's The Pig That Wants To Be Eaten is entertaining and
>>>>>>>>>>thought provoking.
>>>>>>>>100 thought experiments of various kinds (not all moral/ethical ones).
>>>>>>Baggini is a philosopher.
>>>>>A strike against him.
>>>>Maybe. He writes some interesting stuff in newspapers and increasingly
>>>>appears on the radio.
>>>So does William Demment, no scratch that. He doesn't writing
>>>interesting stuff.
>>
>>Another name I don't know.
>
>Typo:
>
>Consciousness explained / Daniel C. Dennett
>
>He coauthored a number of articles and a book or 2 with:
>Douglas R. Hofstadter.
>
>Doug I like. Daniel: is a waste of time. Just like Gary Snyder.
I quite like some of Snyder's early poetry but not his prose.
>
>>>>The book does provoke thinking.
>>>Naw, it depends. Swamp gas can be made to sound interesting.
>>
>>The book makes me think, anyway. Even if its only to work out why an
>>analogy doesn't work.
>
>One thing I knew when I started grad school was raised on my first day
>but I missed (late) given by a friend now on panel 16: the example of
>Moire patterns. They look good/interesting, but unless you are a
>mathematician studying them: they have no application/no use.
>We live in a world of use. Now that's one of my strawmen.
Moire patterns? Coming from the arts/literature side "use" has always
been a side issue. What is the use of art or literature?
>
>>>>>>Some of the experiments are rather artificial.
>>>>>Artifical or contrived?
>>>>Both
>>>A limited number of contrived things: is OK, not too many.
>>>Too many is a waste.
>>
>>This is the problem with writing a "100 of" book. Some are fillers.
>
>A fluff bit.
Makes the title sound good.
Chris Townsend
writes
>In article <UGTR32Tx...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
>Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> And often are. Phillip Pullman's Dark Materials trilogy mixes adult
>>>> themes with a fantasy and is much better than HP.
>
>In message <43aa...@news.meer.net>, Bill Tuthill <c...@spam.co> writes
>>>Disagree. The Harry Potter books are very funny. I find myself laughing
>>>on almost every page. The Pullman books are, shall I say, a long pull.
>>>Not exactly boring, but only remotely entertaining.
>>
>>I like the HP books, especially the third, but I only find some parts
>>funny. The third and fourth books are far too long. I got very bored in
>>places. Pullman requires more effort and thought but I found them more
>>satisfying. I'll read them again. I doubt I'll bother with Harry Potter.
>
>I respect Bill's reading choice.
>The issue is getting around to getting a text (non-gift) as time. Hard.
Selection is difficult. I have a growing list of books to read.
>
>Anyways, have to deal with the fire place tomorrow evening.
Fire place?
>
>>>Of the people who have read C.S. Lewis' Narnia series, did anybody like
>>>_The Last Battle_? I did not, and my kids did not.
>>
>>I don't think I liked it! I haven't read it for over forty years :-). I
>>remember I didn't like The Horse And His Boy, though I can't remember
>>why.
>
>An issue of author completeness. Do we have to read everything?
At least they're short! In total far less than LOTR. They are filming
them all.
Eugene Miya
>>Or as the UK's own Joe Brown said:
>> Better we rise our skill than lower the climb.
In article <M2UXLzAu...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Good quote. Joe was interviewed in a UK climbing magazine recently. He's
>still climbing. He argued that chalk was aid.
It is.
>>Yes, it tends to work out that way. Encourage people to stay home.
>>Or visit Vail.
>>
>Tignes.
Now, that's a new one.
--
Eugene Miya
Chris Townsend <Ch...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <43ab3d1c$1@darkstar>, Eugene Miya <eug...@cse.ucsc.edu>
>>>>Disagree. The Harry Potter books are very funny. I find myself laughing
>>>>on almost every page. The Pullman books are, shall I say, a long pull.
>>>>Not exactly boring, but only remotely entertaining.
>>>
>>>I like the HP books, especially the third, but I only find some parts
>>>funny. The third and fourth books are far too long. I got very bored in
>>>places. Pullman requires more effort and thought but I found them more
>>>satisfying. I'll read them again. I doubt I'll bother with Harry Potter.
>>
>>I respect Bill's reading choice.
>>The issue is getting around to getting a text (non-gift) as time. Hard.
>
>Selection is difficult. I have a growing list of books to read.
I am picking and chosing more. This might not be good.
I am not finishing. I really should. I can finish Roberts tomorrow if
I get it early enough. His first fatality with him occured on the 1st
Flatiron where I did a route with George Bell.
>>Anyways, have to deal with the fire place tomorrow evening.
>
>Fire place?
That or hop into the sleep bags early. Donner pass. Slurp. My place
with others.
>>>>Of the people who have read C.S. Lewis' Narnia series, did anybody like
>>>>_The Last Battle_? I did not, and my kids did not.
>>>I don't think I liked it! I haven't read it for over forty years :-). I
>>>remember I didn't like The Horse And His Boy, though I can't remember
>>>why.
>>An issue of author completeness. Do we have to read everything?
>
>At least they're short! In total far less than LOTR. They are filming
>them all.
I am awaiting to results of Bill's troll.
--