Knives I carry in the backcountry
Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
powder-coated blade of 1095 HC steel, .250-inch thick. Heavy enough
to chop and split logs, but not too long for swinging in thick
country. Carried strapped to the side of my backpack. This machete
was a vital tool for building my log cabin homestead. Price about
$60.
D2 Fighting/Utility Knife from Kabar (www.kabar.com). Called a
"light saber" by my companions because of its super hard and tough
tool-steel blade. 7" blade, Kraton Handle, solid pommel for pounding.
Eagle sheath has large pouch for survival gear. This knife is the
first thing I put on in the morning, and the last thing I take off at
night. Price about $150.
Buck Strider clip knife (www.buckknives.com). Bead-blasted ATS-34
blade, Zytel handle scales, liner lock. Virtually unbreakable, I've
used it for cutting fence wire, opening cans, and some pretty heavy
prying jobs that would break other folders (except maybe SOG's
Tomcat). This knife never leaves my person, not even in my sleeping
bag. Priced at a steep but understandable $180.
Len McDougall, author of the books: The Log Cabin: An Adventure in
Individualism, Self-Reliance, and Cabin Building, The Complete
Tracker, The Field & Stream Wilderness Survival Handbook, The Snowshoe
Handbook, Practical Outdoor Projects, The Outdoors Almanac, Made for
the Outdoors, Practical Outdoor Survival
http://groups.msn.com/TimberwolfWildernessAdventures/home
The Rolphs
Chuck Worth
be some different than the woods I've backpacked in (Sierra Nevada,
Cascades,and once upon a time the Smokies and Rockies), because I've never
needed anything bigger/tougher than my Swiss Army Tinkerer. What are your
backpacking uses that justify carrying three knives (two of 'em pretty
large)?
-Chuck Worth
"Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer" <LMwr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1e9dbfd0.03112...@posting.google.com...
> SP-8 machete from Ontario Knife Company (www.ontarioknife.com). 10"
>> D2 Fighting/Utility Knife from Kabar (www.kabar.com). Called a
Bruce W...1
>
> Hmmm, I usually cary just a swiss army knife (6 blades only). :-)
>
> "Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer" wrote:
>
Leatherman Micra here, for the scissors. I think it has a knife blade
too.
I got over my Rambo knife fettish as a teenager. But they are still
nice to admire. They just don't serve any purpose really.
mean old man
I only found 2 used for a Rambo style knife:
a) It was a good spare if you ever accidentially lost a tent stake
and you weren't using a dome tent.
b) The hollow handle was a perfect place to keep condoms for those
special encounters with the girl scout troops or the Methodist church
girl groups you'd sometimes meet on the trail or at a campsite.
Other than that, they were useless.....
MOM
BTW, Did you hear about the blonde that liked cub scouts? Her doctor
made her quite after she got over 3 packs a day.....
The moderator
"Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer" <LMwr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1e9dbfd0.03112...@posting.google.com...
I carry a 3 inch 3 oz pocket knife and sometimes a Gerber 4 oz saw when
backpacking. If I am hunting big game I carry a larger heavier pocket
knife.
Eugene Miya
>Hmmm, I usually carry just a swiss army knife (6 blades only). :-)
Me too.
The trip determines which knives.
I always take the little bitty one with the photo LED light.
Then if I am skiing or biking I take the Wenger biker, has 2 good wrenches.
If I am traveling on business I take the Wenger with the laser.
And general use I take the Victornix Supertinkerer or the one with the
lenses (handy with scientific colleagues).
Still waiting on the GPS.
And the Gerber sometimes get taken when I need a serious pair of pliers.
Oh yea and a small vise-grip.
doc
Scissors, Toothpick, and Tweezers). The scissors, then tweezers, get used
the most. Works for me so far, but my longest trips don't involve much more
than 250 miles and maybe a couple of weeks between stores. Of course, I opt
for low-impact backcountry techniques that do not involve the creation of
non-portable shelters. Also, I do not travel the backcountry in fear such
that I feel the need to always have external weapons at hand. Most
defensive issues are more likely to arise nearer to trailheads than where I
travel expect for a few hours on the first and last day of a trip.
Still, it is fun to see what it takes for other folks to feel prepared for
journeys into the backcountry. Differing locations is only part of the
equation. Differing perspectives often plays a larger role.
Regards,
doc
On 26 Nov 2003 09:33:02 -0800, LMwr...@yahoo.com (Len McDougall, Outdoor
Hatheway, Darwin
crawling through the steamy jungle we know as New York City, I've always
got my trusty Victorinox Swiss Army "Huntsman" with me. Goes through
cheese like it was butter.
My favorite "blade?" The corkscrew!
"Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer" <LMwr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1e9dbfd0.03112...@posting.google.com...
Chips
GC
"Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer" <LMwr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1e9dbfd0.03112...@posting.google.com...
Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
couple of them. Basically, Chuck, my back yard totals 3 million
acres. The SP-8 on my pack chops shelter poles and snare triggers,
digs holes, and splits bones (remember, I'm a survival instructor) -
it usually stays on the pack. The Kabar is an absolute must for
working, including dispatching deer, drilling holes, and fashioning
wood into tools. I've given away several Swiss Army knives, but I
wouldn't carry one because it's guaranteed to break under the
conditions that I routinely subject my working knives to. As for the
greenhorn who made the Rambo crack, he should've been here last week
whem my RTAK (Ontario Knives) quartered a 150-pound whitetail in under
3 minutes. Try that with a Swiss Army knife.
Len McDougall, author of the books: The Log Cabin: An Adventure in
Individualism, Self-Reliance, and Cabin Building, The Complete
Tracker, The Field & Stream Wilderness Survival Handbook, The Snowshoe
Handbook, Practical Outdoor Projects, The Outdoors Almanac, Made for
the Outdoors, Practical Outdoor Survival
http://groups.msn.com/TimberwolfWildernessAdventures/home
"Chuck Worth" <cwo...@csuchico.edu> wrote in message news:<bq2tie$io5$1...@hubble.csuchico.edu>...
Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
more than any other state in the lower 48 except New York. At least 4
people died in these woods (snowmobilers, ORVers, mostly) in 2003; 1
deer hunter was found after 3 days, another has been missing for more
than a month. This is no place to take lightly, and there are corpses
out there that have never been found. I carry the tools I carry
because experience has taught me to do so (I've been given up for dead
twice by local SAR authorities, once in the winter of 1981, again in
the winter of 1984).
I'd also like to clear up the apparent misconception that my
working knives are weapons. If I decide I need a weapon, it won't be
a knife in my hand, I assure you.
Len McDougall, author of the books: The Log Cabin: An Adventure in
Individualism, Self-Reliance, and Cabin Building, The Complete
Tracker, The Field & Stream Wilderness Survival Handbook, The Snowshoe
Handbook, Practical Outdoor Projects, The Outdoors Almanac, Made for
the Outdoors, Practical Outdoor Survival
http://groups.msn.com/TimberwolfWildernessAdventures/home
doc <d...@home.spamfree> wrote in message news:<3lqasv8uldfjrlok0...@4ax.com>...
Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer
an actual wilderness. Crockett, Boone, Bowie, Bridger, Colter,
Rogers, Clark, and the other woodsmen who blazed the first trails
through N. America did not carry pocket knives. Rambo was a fictional
character, I'm the real thing. Also, Rambo had yet to be created when
I was a teenager.
Len McDougall, author of the books: The Log Cabin: An Adventure in
Individualism, Self-Reliance, and Cabin Building, The Complete
Tracker, The Field & Stream Wilderness Survival Handbook, The Snowshoe
Handbook, Practical Outdoor Projects, The Outdoors Almanac, Made for
the Outdoors, Practical Outdoor Survival
http://groups.msn.com/TimberwolfWildernessAdventures/home
"Bruce W...1" <br...@noDirectEmail.com> wrote in message news:<3FC5129D...@noDirectEmail.com>...
puppe...@hotmail.com
[knife fetish followed by spam-ad for a book]
Um. What you describe is clearly not recreational use. You might
want to try this some place where it's on topic.
Socks
AMG
<puppe...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c7976c46.03112...@posting.google.com...
I'm puzzled. Although I have no need for quite so 'heavy' a knife, it
sounds to me like Len is legit. If he's a poseur, or a troll, then he's a
good one. As to on/off topic, the thread says "...in the backcountry".
This is NOT *.hiking, so I think his contributions are 100% appropriate.
As for what I carry, I've always got the smallest swiss-army in my
survival/meds kit. The one with tweezers and small scisors. Then I
typically have a boker orion in my pocket. I like the shape and once I'd
broken the fancy Ti blade and replaced it with a 440 blade, I was able to
get a half-decent edge. It's a pocket knife I pretty much always have on
me. Lastly, I toss a 'hunter' in my pack, albeit a smallish one. Mostly
because it's a pretty little knife (damascus and wood handles) and I'm
sentimentally attached to it. It's a nice little 3.25" blade drop-point
with high-carbon blade that is an all-around good knife. Admittedly, it's
too light for survival situations (making of shelter), and on REALLY
out-there trips, I've started substituting a CRKT m-16 folder. It's got a
locking 4" blade (thick), which turns it into a reasonable 'hunting' knife.
I also own larger knives (mostly received as gifts) which I never carry
simply because I have 'fastpacker' tendencies, and I can't bear to strap on
another pound of gear. The idea of a short machete appeals though. At
least in winter where emergency shelter might be necessary.
I'll also add that hunting changes the picture. I'd hate to have to
skin/gut a mid-large mammal with a swiss army knife...
a
Mike
There is a big difference between what you do in the bush and what
weekend warriors do.
Most people have no need for anything bigger than a SAK because all
they need to use it for is to cut open some freeze dried meals.
While you have a completely diferent purpose for being in the woods
you need those tools to support you.
FYI, My great grandfather was a line trapper for 45 years and took 6
or more knives with him in the bush for weeks on end. Only one of
those knives was under 6-7 inches in length.
Calling someone Rambo cuz a knife is longer than their SAK is just
showing their ignorance.
Mike
puppe...@hotmail.com
> I'm puzzled. Although I have no need for quite so 'heavy' a knife, it
> sounds to me like Len is legit. If he's a poseur, or a troll, then he's a
> good one. As to on/off topic, the thread says "...in the backcountry".
> This is NOT *.hiking, so I think his contributions are 100% appropriate.
No, this is not *.hiking, it's rec. Len describes skinning and
quartering a deer as though this were the usual thing for him.
He describes constructing shelters by cutting down saplings.
This is not rec.backcountry type activity. This is more in the
hunting/survivalist type area. He'll be a lot happier hawking
his book in one of those news groups that discuss that sort of thing.
Socks
Bruce in Alaska
"The moderator" <spa...@nospam.engineer.com> wrote:
> I carry a 3 inch 3 oz pocket knife and sometimes a Gerber 4 oz saw when
> backpacking. If I am hunting big game I carry a larger heavier pocket
> knife.
I live in the alaskan bush. I carry a leatherman when out in the lcoal
country. If I am out overnight, or trapping, I add a 12" Kukkeri (real
Nepaleese made blade) and my Browning HiPower. When hunting I add an 8"
Buck in my pack, and my R77 in 30.06. When I am on "Bear Deterent". I
add my Stainless 12 Ga Pump/Extended Mag, with Slugs and 00Buck,
aternated.
Bruce in alaska
--
add a <2> before @
cy...@tiny.net.invalid
wrote:
>I'm puzzled. Although I have no need for quite so 'heavy' a knife, it
>sounds to me like Len is legit. If he's a poseur, or a troll, then he's a
>good one. As to on/off topic, the thread says "...in the backcountry".
>This is NOT *.hiking, so I think his contributions are 100% appropriate.
According to some of the people on here, he's a poseur.
Whatever. He comes on every year or two and SPAMs his books. Now
that he's written a new one, he'll be around for a while.
I did see someone by his name once post a piece on wolves that I liked
so much I saved it, printed it out, and put it up at work, but I
mostly find him to be heavy handed in his writing and find that his
ego gets in the way of my enjoying his work.
--
rbc: vixen Fairly harmless
Hit reply to email.
Though I'm very slow to respond.
http://www.visi.com/~cyli
The Rolphs
to my eye what are interesting insights into the perspective of a variety
of backcountry users.
My sense is that there were three classes of responses:
1) traditional hiker/climber/biker backcountry users of typical
backcountry/mountains in the lower 48
2) hunters
3) what I will for lack of a better word call survivalists
Group 1 is typically focused on weight, needs knives to prepare food and
cut cords etc., and swiss army knives or multipurpose tools predominate.
Distance and time out is not the issue (some are long distance/long
duration trips), low impact on the environment is the issue.
Group 2 needs cutlery to support butchering. Bigger knives, but again
relatively low impact on the environment.
Group 3 appears (1 data point that I read so far in the thread) to require
equipment to forge a civilization out of the backcountry. This would
appear to be high impact activity in the backcountry. Can't say much
about Canada or Alaska, but in the lower 48, all the backcountry I have
seen is pretty near the road and has relatively high people impact, and I
would be quizzical about the appropriateness of this type of use.
For grins I will add two more cases of cutlery to the list:
a) in the rainforest of Hawaii, the preferred cutlery, when I was doing
it, was an 18 inch machete with Sheffield steel blade (typically army
surplus), or 24 inches if one had the strength. One literally was hacking
a trail through the jungle.
b) many years ago when travel in the North Cascades area was much lower
than now and we were generally off trail for most of the time, a light
weight axe was useful to split wood to get to the dry core for fires. A
Collins Hudson Bay Axes worked just fine back then, but I haven't used it
in the backcountry for years now.
"Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer" wrote:
rwwff
> be some different than the woods I've backpacked in (Sierra Nevada,
> Cascades,and once upon a time the Smokies and Rockies), because I've never
> needed anything bigger/tougher than my Swiss Army Tinkerer. What are your
> backpacking uses that justify carrying three knives (two of 'em pretty
> large)?
I think yall are getting stuck on the image. I've never met a small
knife that didn't have, "lets cut rww today" written on it. On the
other hand, I've never cut myself with a fixed blade knife. Its just
a blade and a handle, my hands are to clumsy to safely use the small
handle of a pocket knife. Now being in Texas we have a funny blade
length limit in the law, so I prefer a 5" blade, or my Ulu, which
surprisingly for a touristy looking thing holds a very nice edge.
Sciscors are best for cutting rope and string, but you can do that
almost as well with a knife, and a knife is much easier to use to
clean a fish.
I do have a swiss army type knife, and will use them on day trips
where I'm not far from antibiotics and sutures, but in a wilderness
area where it could take more than a day to get back out? No way. I
want a big, grippy, no-slip handle, and a blade that doesn't wiggle on
anything sharp that I touch.
Dan
"The Rolphs" <ro...@10.net> wrote in message
news:3FC4E7D4...@10.net...
> Hmmm, I usually cary just a swiss army knife (6 blades only). :-)
Ha! Mine only has TWO blades...
Dan
Dan
"Eugene Miya" <eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> wrote in message
news:3fc53966$1@darkstar...
Well, now you are talking "tools." The problem here is, where do you draw
the
line...
Are the cable ties and bags I carry tools?
Repair items (spares)?
Pots and pans?
Tarps, sleeping bag?
Everything except the ingestible?
My most important tool weighs about 3 lbs and is encased in bone, for the
most part!
Just wondering.
Dan
Dan
"Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer" <LMwr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1e9dbfd0.03112...@posting.google.com...
> an actual wilderness. Crockett, Boone, Bowie, Bridger, Colter,
> Rogers, Clark, and the other woodsmen who blazed the first trails
> through N. America did not carry pocket knives. Rambo was a fictional
> character, I'm the real thing. Also, Rambo had yet to be created when
> I was a teenager.
<Fluff snipped>
Depends on what kind of trip it is. Were I to be building a log cabin, I
would
consider items I wasn't going to carry on my back.
Were I to plan to stay out long enough to have to hunt for my dinner, my
tool kit would look different than when I plan on enjoying 5 - 20 days away
from my day to day contact with civilization.
The guys you list planned to be out a while, and had fewer options than
someone
born in the last century might have...
Backcountry [subject line] <> "wilderness" [current text].
Mostly, shameless plugging of your labors is inappropriate for this
newsgroup,
though, of course, no one can stop you.
Dan
AMG
You can play with semantics as long as you like. From where I stand it's
still *backcountry*. I post regarding parachutes is as pertinent on
rec.weekendaviation as it is on whatever.stuntpilot. Backcountry means off
the beaten path to me. When I go into the Maine NW (to recreate), I'm as
concerned about being selfsufficient (in an emergency) as if I had
purposedly planned to need food and shelter.
If the fact that he's over the top - and hawking his wares - bothers you,
that's a diff issue altogether. I can deal with those 'shortcomings' in
order to have a discussion re what knives people carry amd why they chose
those particular models. I want to know about the extremes of the 'curve'
as much as I want to hear the obvious from the majority of 'us' in the
middle.
Or instead, I guess we could always have a lively discussion about which
model swissarmyknife is the best...
a
Dan
"rwwff" <rw...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8c88725.03112...@posting.google.com...
> I think yall are getting stuck on the image. I've never met a small
> knife that didn't have, "lets cut rww today" written on it. On the
> other hand, I've never cut myself with a fixed blade knife. Its just
> a blade and a handle, my hands are to clumsy to safely use the small
> handle of a pocket knife. Now being in Texas we have a funny blade
> length limit in the law, so I prefer a 5" blade, or my Ulu, which
> surprisingly for a touristy looking thing holds a very nice edge.
> Sciscors are best for cutting rope and string, but you can do that
> almost as well with a knife, and a knife is much easier to use to
> clean a fish.
>
> I do have a swiss army type knife, and will use them on day trips
> where I'm not far from antibiotics and sutures, but in a wilderness
> area where it could take more than a day to get back out? No way. I
> want a big, grippy, no-slip handle, and a blade that doesn't wiggle on
> anything sharp that I touch.
Then you have chosen wisely, grasshopper.
Most of us have a tad more fine-motor control and have yet to have
a knife collapse on us, or perhaps we just do different chores with our
knives. Mine is more of a food prep and emergency item, since I
rarely find the need to permanently change my equipment any more -
most of it is many years old and has been fashioned to my tastes and/or
usage long ago. But, then, it is a rare trip when my first aid kit is
actually opened, either, on the trail.
I'm guessing we have differing styles of preferred backcountry experiences.
I'm an ultralight, low impact kind of camper who doesn't make fires
(except for my children). I carry an OLD Kelty D4, without extensions,
which doesn't permit for much which is not essential. I rarely carry a
tent or fishing equipment, though have been taking to carrying paper-based
versions of board games (current fave is Square Mile, tho TAGTFOS is
always in the available pile and used to get taken on most trips). I
never have found time for books, though I would reconsider on longer trips,
where some dispersed time is good for group mental health. My "gotta
build a monument' guy-thing days are mostly over, and any monuments
we now build are done with tools and materials at hand.
Dan
Dan
"The moderator" <spa...@nospam.engineer.com> wrote
> I carry a 3 inch 3 oz pocket knife and sometimes a Gerber 4 oz saw when
> backpacking. If I am hunting big game I carry a larger heavier pocket
> knife.
What is the saw for?
Dan
Pat OConnell
My SAK (a Victorinox Ranger) has a very small wood saw. I've used it once
or twice to saw off dry "squaw wood" for starting a fire in dampish
weather. In the desert (where I hike these days, mostly), a saw isn't of
much use.
I used to have a Victorinox Classic SAK, but it got lost and hasn't been
replaced. Maybe for Christmas...
I also own an 8 ounce Gerber multitool, but it usually stays in my truck's
glovebox, as it's mostly useful for the longnose pliers/wire cutters and a
metal saw. The blade's OK, but has a serrated edge, which I think is
supposed to be for cutting bread or tomatoes.
--
Pat O'Connell
[note munged EMail address]
Take nothing but pictures, Leave nothing but footprints,
Kill nothing but vandals...
Gary S.
<nvcaver.F...@cox.net> wrote:
>Dan wrote:
>> "The moderator" <spa...@nospam.engineer.com> wrote
>>
>>> I carry a 3 inch 3 oz pocket knife and sometimes a Gerber 4 oz saw when
>>> backpacking. If I am hunting big game I carry a larger heavier pocket
>>> knife.
>>
>> What is the saw for?
>
>My SAK (a Victorinox Ranger) has a very small wood saw. I've used it once
>or twice to saw off dry "squaw wood" for starting a fire in dampish
>weather. In the desert (where I hike these days, mostly), a saw isn't of
>much use.
>
There are several small wood stoves which work well with that sort of
firewood. Not only the Zzip stoves, but some "shepherd-style" stoves
used with portable tipis or small yurts. Kifaru's Mountainshelters,
from the founder of Mountainsmith in his new venture, are one nice
example.
One alternative that I carry on occasion is a jackknife-style Stanley
Tool handle, which holds saw blades as used with a SawzAll power tool.
These blades are easily found and replaced, and you can even get metal
cutting blades for backcountry work projects. Even with a couple of
extra blades, these are lighter and less expensive than many similar
ones sold in outdoor shops, without replacable blades.
>I used to have a Victorinox Classic SAK, but it got lost and hasn't been
>replaced. Maybe for Christmas...
>
When I worked retail, I got to believing that the vast majority of
Victorinox and Wenger SAK sales are as gifts for others.
>I also own an 8 ounce Gerber multitool, but it usually stays in my truck's
>glovebox, as it's mostly useful for the longnose pliers/wire cutters and a
>metal saw. The blade's OK, but has a serrated edge, which I think is
>supposed to be for cutting bread or tomatoes.
The serrated edge works very well for cutting rope with one slash, as
well as cutting many foods. It also holds a reasonable edge longer
than a smooth edged knive. There are some models which combine a
smooth edge near the tip and the rear part of the edge serrated.
Serrated is a little trickier to sharpen.
Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence
Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom
The Rolphs
least one for the cork screw. Corkscrews have no replacement for opening the
bottle of merlot to serve with the beef based glop!! :-)
Mach Twain
>No purpose? That's entirely wrong, presuming of course that you're in
>an actual wilderness. Crockett, Boone, Bowie, Bridger, Colter,
>Rogers, Clark, and the other woodsmen who blazed the first trails
>through N. America did not carry pocket knives. Rambo was a fictional
>character, I'm the real thing. Also, Rambo had yet to be created when
>I was a teenager.
>
>Len McDougall, author of the books: The Log Cabin: An Adventure in
>Individualism, Self-Reliance, and Cabin Building, The Complete
>Tracker, The Field & Stream Wilderness Survival Handbook, The Snowshoe
>Handbook, Practical Outdoor Projects, The Outdoors Almanac, Made for
>the Outdoors, Practical Outdoor Survival
Usually you're run out of here on a rail by now, wild thang.
I wonder why it's different this time around?
You've sucked off Rambo, watching you do Zeus should be interesting.
Mach Twain
rwwff
> I'm guessing we have differing styles of preferred backcountry experiences.
> I'm an ultralight, low impact kind of camper who doesn't make fires
> (except for my children). I carry an OLD Kelty D4, without extensions,
> which doesn't permit for much which is not essential.
My favorate pack is my Dana Astraplane. Its super comfy but
ultralight its not, nor does it encourage ultralight packing. Me and
the loaded pack together weigh in usually at about 300 pounds, at that
point whether my knife weighs 8 oz or 4 oz really doesn't make any
difference.
And its only going to get heavier, the daughter is closing in on being
old enough to get out in the woods without the wife being displeased.
Thats a good thing though, cause it means I can get back to
backpacking again.
However, I do prefer mostly low impact activities, and rarely use a
wood fire, they make everything smell like smoke... XGK cooks things
just fine, and quicker too.
> I rarely carry a
> tent or fishing equipment,
Must have tent. Must have fishing equipment. Must have SLR. SLR
means I must have lenses, and it makes the tripod very tempting too...
Not sure which of those is most important though.. I have a
spreadsheet that calculates weights so my eyes don't bite off more
than I can chew...
> build a monument' guy-thing days are mostly over, and any monuments
> we now build are done with tools and materials at hand.
Monuments??
cy...@tiny.net.invalid
Not really. It generally takes two weeks or more. It's only been a
few days so far (just feels like more). You and I are the only fairly
long term users I've seen respond yet. My only real objections to him
are on style points: self aggrandizement, turgid prose, SPAMming.
I've seldom been able to read enough of his stuff to judge the
substance, which is what they generally nail him on.
doc
>On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 16:40:22 -0700, Mach Twain
><mach...@coldmail.com> wrote:
>
>> (Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer) wrote:
>
>>>the Outdoors, Practical Outdoor Survival
>>
>>Usually you're run out of here on a rail by now, wild thang.
>>I wonder why it's different this time around?
>>You've sucked off Rambo, watching you do Zeus should be interesting.
>>
>>Mach Twain
>
>
>Not really. It generally takes two weeks or more. It's only been a
>few days so far (just feels like more). You and I are the only fairly
>long term users I've seen respond yet. My only real objections to him
>are on style points: self aggrandizement, turgid prose, SPAMming.
>I've seldom been able to read enough of his stuff to judge the
>substance, which is what they generally nail him on.
The first term regarding style that comes to mind is "blow-hard," but your
description is quite eloquent. It is rare to see a poster with such an
obvious lack of humility. Mostly, its the surf-by spamming that I object
to. I, for one, will never buy one of his books.
What do you consider "fairly long term?"
Regards,
doc
Eugene Miya
Dan <dnad...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>"Eugene Miya" <eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> wrote in message
>news:3fc53966$1@darkstar...
>> In article <3FC4E7D4...@10.net>, The Rolphs <ro...@10.net> wrote:
>> >a swiss army knife (6 blades only). :-)
>>
>> Then if I am skiing or biking I take the Wenger biker, has 2 good wrenches.
>> If I am traveling on business I take the Wenger with the laser.
>> And general use I take the Victornix Supertinkerer or the one with the
>> lenses (handy with scientific colleagues).
>> Oh yea and a small vise-grip.
>
>Well, now you are talking "tools." The problem here is, where do you draw
>the line...
Expeditions have major requirements over short easy trips.
At this moment I am sitting next to a Bridgeport and a nice machine shop.
These are not carriable, bit they have influence on future expeditions.
>Are the cable ties and bags I carry tools?
Yes. And useful.
>Repair items (spares)?
The expense of a trip determines the amount of fault tolerance you can take.
Improvising works to a point.
>Pots and pans?
Sure.
>Tarps, sleeping bag?
Basics for overnights, rain, etc.
>Everything except the ingestible?
No, including the ingestible.
>My most important tool weighs about 3 lbs and is encased in bone, for the
>most part!
That's priority.
>Just wondering.
On the really big scientific expeditions, I have sometimes taken photos
of the accumulated logistical support. My first thought was "our
hardware store" [I forgot how many different types and colors of duct
tape we had. We used them all.] Junk/rangoon photos are common by
many others (the most noted Patagonia photo of this type was the gear
selections for El Cap in the early 60s taken by Frost).
Small expeditions and smaller trips, you can carry less.
Camper
says...
I like a little spyderco that has the inside of the blade etched out.
Very light with a serrated blade in a hard nylon handle with a blade
lock. They are for sale at REI.
Eugene Miya
Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer <LMwr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Rambo was a fictional character, I'm the real thing.
You mean that you are a post-tramatic stressed Vietnam-era dude
who can wield an M-60 machine gun single handed with accuracy
(something even SEALs do with 2 hands)?
The first film was to illustrate a sad plight society did to its cannon fodder.
Subsequent ones were undoubtably for release.
Kamus of Kadizhar
little folding knife that my wife got me years ago, but now I got one of
those demo knives that comes in the mail - this thing is *cool*! It's
about 2 1/2" long, has two blades, a corkscrew, two screwdrivers, and a
can opener. And it's damn near sharp enough to shave with. So I'm
tempted to leave old faithful behind.
Other than than, I carry a handful of lexan knives, with matching forks
and spoons. :-)
-Kamus
--
What am I on?
I'm on my bike, o__
6 hours a day, busting my ass. ,>/'_
What are you on? --Lance Armstrong (_)\(_)
Eugene Miya
Gary S. <Idontwantspam@net> wrote:
>On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 12:29:37 -0800, Pat OConnell
><nvcaver.F...@cox.net> wrote:
>>Dan wrote:
>>> "The moderator" <spa...@nospam.engineer.com> wrote
Gawd, I can't get any of you to mod the sub line.
>>>> I carry a 3 inch 3 oz pocket knife and sometimes a Gerber 4 oz saw when
>>>> backpacking.
>>> What is the saw for?
>>My SAK (a Victorinox Ranger) has a very small wood saw. I've used it once
>>or twice to saw off dry "squaw wood" for starting a fire in dampish
>>weather.
>>
>There are several small wood stoves which work well with that sort of
>firewood.
In an emergency these knive saws are useful, but Tuthill's pocket
chain saw or a wire zip saws are more useful. Try them.
I gave Tuthill my folding Swen saw for his work on the water panel.
But if I really wanted to saw I would bring the 16 inch bar husky.
Loppers are useful.
But I have to try a machete ones of these days to find out their
usefulness.
>When I worked retail, I got to believing that the vast majority of
>Victorinox and Wenger SAK sales are as gifts for others.
Especially when you can engrave something on the handle body.
>>I also own an 8 ounce Gerber multitool, but it usually stays in my truck's
>>glovebox, as it's mostly useful for the longnose pliers/wire cutters and a
>>metal saw.
Works best with a pair of vise grips in an emergency.
Kamus of Kadizhar
> But I have to try a machete ones of these days to find out their
> usefulness.
I spent a few years as a surveyor cutting line. A machette was my tool
of choice. It works best on light to medium underbrush. Pick a blade
that's stiff so it won't flop around (lots of the "macho man" blades are
so flimsy they flutter making the chopping stroke useless), short, and
balanced fairly far from the handle. The longer the blade the harder it
is to use, and as a result, less effective. The military issue ones
were among the best I've seen.
The handle should have a large "hook" on the end to catch your fingers
so you can hold it with a loose grip. I could pivot mine around the
pinky for hours on end without getting tired though I would be sore the
next day.
A machete is useless in heavy brush, and makes for hard going in vines,
where a bush hook is far more useful.
Like everything else in your arsenal, it's a great tool for the right
conditions. Bit too heavy for normal backpacking, though if I had to go
bushwhacking I'd bring mine.
cy...@tiny.net.invalid
I've been on here since some time in '95 or early '96, but I'm not up
in the class of expert who is free to offer much over 'Just say no to
cotton' or 'don't wade in fast water over your knees without a good
life jacket' or 'I love my bear cannister' sort of things. I do
fringe country. Sometimes up to a few miles from any known car or
house or road and sometimes right in the midst of the "aluminum hatch"
on a river or tenting in a State or County Park.
I think you've been on here at least 3 or more years under this or
various usernames. Maybe a lot longer if you're Muskie of olden (and
terribly amusing Todd and Sparkles and such trolls) days. If you are
/ were him, I believe you precede me.
Some of the people on here seem to be from before a lot of splits into
alpine skiing, climbing, and caving groups happened and to have done
things that people like some of these posters can only imagine.
Pat OConnell
> In article <1lkfsv4mnkslo6a5e...@4ax.com>,
> Gary S. <Idontwantspam@net> wrote:
>>On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 12:29:37 -0800, Pat OConnell
>><nvcaver.F...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>Dan wrote:
>>>> "The moderator" <spa...@nospam.engineer.com> wrote
>
> Gawd, I can't get any of you to mod the sub line.
Well, I try.
...
>>>> What is the saw for?
>>>My SAK (a Victorinox Ranger) has a very small wood saw. I've used it once
>>>or twice to saw off dry "squaw wood" for starting a fire in dampish
>>>weather.
>>>
>>There are several small wood stoves which work well with that sort of
>>firewood.
>
> In an emergency these knive saws are useful, but Tuthill's pocket
> chain saw or a wire zip saws are more useful. Try them.
Like I said, I've only used the saw blade on my SAK a couple of times. Not
worth it to carry a separate saw when hiking/backpacking.
The last time I've built a campfire, I was car camping, and actually
carried a small bow saw (normally used for pruning trees). We were camped
in an area with a lot of downed pine trees with 4 inch trunks (aftermath of
a long ago windy storm, perhaps). We just broke off branches to start the
fire, and slowly fed trunks, top first, into the fire. Lazy, but efficient,
and the saw wasn't used.
> But if I really wanted to saw I would bring the 16 inch bar husky.
That's not a backpacking saw, unless all you're packing is the saw.
> Loppers are useful.
I have those too (tree trimming again), but never took them camping.
...
>>>I also own an 8 ounce Gerber multitool, but it usually stays in my truck's
>>>glovebox, as it's mostly useful for the longnose pliers/wire cutters and a
>>>metal saw.
>
> Works best with a pair of vise grips in an emergency.
I forgot about Vise Grips. I carry a small one as a pot lifter and for
miscellaneous repairs.
mean old man
The hiking and the backcounty was always secondary to the three c's
for me (Camping, Caving, and Climbing. (some)). This is a pretty good
group where just about anything related to outdoor activity in the
backcountry is on topic.
Personally, I quit the cave newsgroups because everytime someone
posted a message or trip report there, it would somehow turn into a
Hoyt & Paul "special" moment. I'll bet others here left for the same
reasons.
See Ya!
MOM
Pat OConnell
> On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 17:16:20 -0600, cy...@tiny.net.invalid wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 22:39:23 -0800, doc <d...@home.spamfree> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:01:59 -0600, cy...@tiny.net.invalid wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 16:40:22 -0700, Mach Twain
>>>> <mach...@coldmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> What do you consider "fairly long term?"
>>>
>> I've been on here since some time in '95 or early '96, but I'm not up
>> in the class of expert who is free to offer much over 'Just say no to
>> cotton' or 'don't wade in fast water over your knees without a good
>> life jacket' or 'I love my bear cannister' sort of things. I do
>> fringe country. Sometimes up to a few miles from any known car or
>> house or road and sometimes right in the midst of the "aluminum hatch"
>> on a river or tenting in a State or County Park.
>>
>> I think you've been on here at least 3 or more years under this or
>> various usernames. Maybe a lot longer if you're Muskie of olden (and
>> terribly amusing Todd and Sparkles and such trolls) days. If you are
>> / were him, I believe you precede me.
Cyli's been around awhile.
>> Some of the people on here seem to be from before a lot of splits into
>> alpine skiing, climbing, and caving groups happened and to have done
>> things that people like some of these posters can only imagine.
>
> The hiking and the backcounty was always secondary to the three c's for
> me (Camping, Caving, and Climbing. (some)). This is a pretty good group
> where just about anything related to outdoor activity in the backcountry
> is on topic.
Lately I've been hiking more than caving.
> Personally, I quit the cave newsgroups because everytime someone posted
> a message or trip report there, it would somehow turn into a Hoyt & Paul
> "special" moment. I'll bet others here left for the same reasons.
The alt.caving group was always a clusterwhat. Join the Cavers Digest
instead, which is a mailgroup. Details at:
I've been in the NSS (13878) a long time, and know a lot of people through
conventions and caving. Not sure if I know you in the real world. Haven't
met Galen in person either. EMail if you want to (the above address or the
one in the Members Manual).
Matt Gabriel, Mad Poet of Newport
mostly guys in their late teens, lots of 50-mile plus canoe
expeditions), "k-bar" or "rambo" knives were fashionable with some,
and then the folders from Spyderco, or big buck-knives. We never did
find a use for any of those kind of blades apart from fashion
accessories... too heavy and unweildy in the case of the k-bar and
buck, and we missed the can opener and the screwdrivers on the SA
knives from the Spyderco.
Swiss army knives, esp. the Tinker, were put to daily use. Victorinox
and Wenger had a lifetime warranty at the time. Military surplus,
marine-issue jacknives and generic folding "electrician's knives" from
Sears were popular as well. Machetes were useless in most instances,
too heavy and unweildy, but military surplus style tomahawks were
common, and put to daily use, and the coleman hatchets with synthetic
handles were popular camp tools, too. Someone would always bring a
folding camp saw, and it was always welcome.
Now I don't venture as deep into the wilderness these days, but I
carry a Gerber multi-tool wherever I go. Opens one-handed, and is
tough as nails. Don't much bother with swiss army knives anymore.
I'd think if you were a hunter, you'd prefer one of the folding
skinning/boning knife sets that Cabella's sells to the old marine
bayonet k-bar and a machette. Lighter than either, and better suited
to the task.
~ Matt Gabriel
LMwr...@yahoo.com (Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer) wrote in message news:<1e9dbfd0.03112...@posting.google.com>...
> SP-8 machete from Ontario Knife Company (www.ontarioknife.com). 10"
> powder-coated blade of 1095 HC steel, .250-inch thick. Heavy enough
> to chop and split logs, but not too long for swinging in thick
> country. Carried strapped to the side of my backpack. This machete
> was a vital tool for building my log cabin homestead. Price about
> $60.
> D2 Fighting/Utility Knife from Kabar (www.kabar.com). Called a
> "light saber" by my companions because of its super hard and tough
> tool-steel blade. 7" blade, Kraton Handle, solid pommel for pounding.
> Eagle sheath has large pouch for survival gear. This knife is the
> first thing I put on in the morning, and the last thing I take off at
> night. Price about $150.
> Buck Strider clip knife (www.buckknives.com). Bead-blasted ATS-34
> blade, Zytel handle scales, liner lock. Virtually unbreakable, I've
> used it for cutting fence wire, opening cans, and some pretty heavy
> prying jobs that would break other folders (except maybe SOG's
> Tomcat). This knife never leaves my person, not even in my sleeping
> bag. Priced at a steep but understandable $180.
>
> Len McDougall, author of the books: The Log Cabin: An Adventure in
> Individualism, Self-Reliance, and Cabin Building, The Complete
> Tracker, The Field & Stream Wilderness Survival Handbook, The Snowshoe
> Handbook, Practical Outdoor Projects, The Outdoors Almanac, Made for
> the Outdoors, Practical Outdoor Survival
doc
Although I started using the "internet" in about 1978, I have only been
posting in rec.backcountry as "doc" since February 1998. I filtered
"Mu-s-k-ie" long ago and certainly never posted under that name, "Todd," or
"Sparkles."
The first mention of "Cyli" as an author in rec.backcountry was 24 August
1995, according to Google.
Regards,
doc
doc
I stopped reading the SCUBA newsgroups because of all the "dive-Nazis"
versus "Strokes" battles. Rec.backcountry is tame by comparison.
Regards,
doc
mean old man
Howdy and thanks!
I'll check out the link later today.
I can't remember my NSS numbers, (I had a few; my last one was 23
something.)
If you were caving in the late 50's -early 60's in West Virginia -
Virginia Kentucky we might have ran into each other, though more than
likely not then. I was mostly out of the scene from 63 to 75. Moved
to a place with "no" caves in 77, started caving in TAG around 83. I
probably met you if you attended any of the TAG Fall Cave-ins during
the late 1980's, or the oldtimers event in 88. I was a fringe member
of the triangle city grotto in NC in 90, but my health failed shortly
after joining and I eventually lost touch with everyone there. That's
my brief caving bio.
Although I live in a area considered to have "no" caves, a cave diver
died of unknown causes in a cave dive less than 5 miles from my house
sometime between 91 and 93. If you have access to older American
Caving Accidents and membership manuals, that should tell you who I
am, even though I was not involved in the fatal dive.
Sorry for the riddles, but not everyone on usenet is my friend.
Thanx again!
MOM
Pat OConnell
If you rejoin for some reason, they can look up your previous number(s) and
re-assign the lowest one.
> If you were caving in the late 50's -early 60's in West Virginia -
I was a kid then. First real caving was with Explorers in Indiana in 1966,
and with Purdue outing club.
> Virginia Kentucky we might have ran into each other, though more than
> likely not then. I was mostly out of the scene from 63 to 75. Moved
I joined the NSS in 72, and was caving in WV in 72-74. Moved back to
Indiana and caved there, KY, and WV. Was an active TAG yoyo caver in the
late 70s-1981. Got active again when I moved to NM in 1985. I live in
Nevada now, and am a member of the local grotto, but am not really active.
> to a place with "no" caves in 77, started caving in TAG around 83. I
> probably met you if you attended any of the TAG Fall Cave-ins during
> the late 1980's, or the oldtimers event in 88. I was a fringe member
Been to some of those.
> of the triangle city grotto in NC in 90, but my health failed shortly
> after joining and I eventually lost touch with everyone there. That's
> my brief caving bio.
I have met some of the Flittermouse people, at Convention.
> Sorry for the riddles, but not everyone on usenet is my friend.
So EMail...
Mach Twain
>>
>>> (Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer) wrote:
>>
>>>>the Outdoors, Practical Outdoor Survival
>>>
>>>Usually you're run out of here on a rail by now, wild thang.
>>>I wonder why it's different this time around?
>>>You've sucked off Rambo, watching you do Zeus should be interesting.
>>>
>>>Mach Twain
>>Not really. It generally takes two weeks or more. It's only been a
>>few days so far (just feels like more). You and I are the only fairly
>>long term users I've seen respond yet. My only real objections to him
>>are on style points: self aggrandizement, turgid prose, SPAMming.
>>I've seldom been able to read enough of his stuff to judge the
>>substance, which is what they generally nail him on.
>
>The first term regarding style that comes to mind is "blow-hard," but your
>description is quite eloquent. It is rare to see a poster with such an
>obvious lack of humility. Mostly, its the surf-by spamming that I object
>to. I, for one, will never buy one of his books.
>
>What do you consider "fairly long term?"
>
It's a shame in a way. I for one would be interested in a good book
about animal scat and tracks; but I'll never look at his, if he
really has one. I remember the way he tried to drag down a real bear
expert a few years back.
I was waiting for someone else to slam him first; but it was taking
too long...... Sorry for the needless profanity :-).
Mach Twain
Eugene Miya
In article <iT9yb.16738$o9.3073@fed1read07>,
Pat OConnell <nvcaver.F...@cox.net> wrote:
>Well, I try.
Harder hodawg!
>>>>> What is the saw for?
>>>>My SAK (a Victorinox Ranger) has a very small wood saw.
>
>Like I said, I've only used the saw blade on my SAK a couple of times. Not
>worth it to carry a separate saw when hiking/backpacking.
>
>The last time I've built a campfire, I was car camping, and actually
>carried a small bow saw (normally used for pruning trees). We were camped
>in an area with a lot of downed pine trees with 4 inch trunks (aftermath of
>a long ago windy storm, perhaps). We just broke off branches to start the
>fire, and slowly fed trunks, top first, into the fire. Lazy, but efficient,
>and the saw wasn't used.
Big white man fire!
I just usually break smaller kindling off by hand.
>> But if I really wanted to saw I would bring the 16 inch bar husky.
>
>That's not a backpacking saw, unless all you're packing is the saw.
Work parties and fires.
Naw it straps on top of the bearer's pack.
Usually I let some other grunt carry it. Sometimes I have to carry it.
Sometimes I melt blocks of cut snow for ice corer.
>> Loppers are useful.
>
>I have those too (tree trimming again), but never took them camping.
Clandestine trail maintenance.
>> vise grips
>
>I forgot about Vise Grips. I carry a small one as a pot lifter and for
>miscellaneous repairs.
Pot handle is lighter.
But has less utility.
Eugene Miya
Kamus of Kadizhar <y...@NsOeSiPnAeMr.com> wrote:
>I spent a few years as a surveyor cutting line. A machette was my tool
>of choice. It works best on light to medium underbrush. Pick a blade
>that's stiff
>is to use, and as a result, less effective. The military issue ones
>were among the best I've seen.
Mmmh!
>The handle should have a large "hook" on the end to catch your fingers
>so you can hold it with a loose grip. I could pivot mine around the
>pinky for hours on end without getting tired though I would be sore the
>next day.
>
>A machete is useless in heavy brush, and makes for hard going in vines,
>where a bush hook is far more useful.
Yes, the chain saw has an advantage there.
>Like everything else in your arsenal, it's a great tool for the right
>conditions. Bit too heavy for normal backpacking, though if I had to go
>bushwhacking I'd bring mine.
A knowledgeable man.
Well I will try one one of these days.
Eugene Miya
doc <d...@home.spamfree> wrote:
>I stopped reading the SCUBA newsgroups because of all the "dive-Nazis"
>versus "Strokes" battles. Rec.backcountry is tame by comparison.
Yeah, likely related to the harshness of the environment.
Only mildly wild.
Eugene Miya
Mach Twain <mach...@coldmail.com> wrote:
>It's a shame in a way. I for one would be interested in a good book
>about animal scat and tracks;
Try sci.bio.* or the bionet.* groups.
>I remember the way he tried to drag down a real bear
>expert a few years back.
Who real bear expert?
>I was waiting for someone else to slam him first; but it was taking
>too long...... Sorry for the needless profanity :-).
Unmoderated group.
Ed Huesers
doc wrote:
> Rec.backcountry is tame by comparison.
You must be itching for Yellowstone...
Ed Huesers
Shameless plug: http://www.grandshelters.com
Mach Twain
>I spent a few years as a surveyor cutting line. A machette was my tool
>of choice. It works best on light to medium underbrush......
>......A machete is useless in heavy brush, and makes for hard going in vines,
>where a bush hook is far more useful.
>
>Like everything else in your arsenal, it's a great tool for the right
>conditions. Bit too heavy for normal backpacking, though if I had to go
>bushwhacking I'd bring mine.
>
What did you use for cats-claw?
Mach Twain
Eugene Miya
rwwff <rw...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>"Chuck Worth" <cwo...@csuchico.edu> wrote in message news:<bq2tie$io5$1...@hubble.csuchico.edu>...
>> Interesting, Len. How much do these weigh? Your woods up in Michigan must
Knowledgeable question
>> be some different than the woods I've backpacked in (Sierra Nevada,
>> Cascades,and once upon a time the Smokies and Rockies), because I've never
>> needed anything bigger/tougher than my Swiss Army Tinkerer. What are your
>> backpacking uses that justify carrying three knives (two of 'em pretty
>> large)?
>
>I think yall are getting stuck on the image. I've never met a small
>knife that didn't have, "lets cut rww today" written on it. On the
>other hand, I've never cut myself with a fixed blade knife. Its just
>a blade and a handle, my hands are to clumsy to safely use the small
>handle of a pocket knife. Now being in Texas we have a funny blade
>length limit in the law, so I prefer a 5" blade, or my Ulu, which
>surprisingly for a touristy looking thing holds a very nice edge.
Been a while since ulus have been noted here.
Like mine.
You can get non-touristy ones.
I brought back a small stack for friends in the lower 48.
>Scissors are best for cutting rope and string, but you can do that
>almost as well with a knife, and a knife is much easier to use to
>clean a fish.
Depends on the rope. A rope burner is better for melting nylon.
>I do have a swiss army type knife, and will use them on day trips
>where I'm not far from antibiotics and sutures, but in a wilderness
>area where it could take more than a day to get back out? No way. I
>want a big, grippy, no-slip handle, and a blade that doesn't wiggle on
>anything sharp that I touch.
Depends on app.
Ed Huesers
> >Rambo was a fictional character, I'm the real thing.
Eugene Miya wrote:
> You mean that you are a post-tramatic stressed Vietnam-era dude
> who can wield an M-60 machine gun single handed with accuracy
> (something even SEALs do with 2 hands)?
Naw, he just means he's real, just like the rest of us.
No one would lie about their knowledge on usenet, would they?
Eugene Miya
Ed Huesers <e...@grandshelters.com> wrote:
>doc wrote:
>> Rec.backcountry is tame by comparison.
>
> You must be itching for Yellowstone...
Naw, he's right about it being comparatively tame.
You have not seen Curtis or Tomm of late have you?
Eugene Miya
doc <d...@home.spamfree> wrote:
>Although I started using the "internet" in about 1978, I have only been
Why the quotes? You can be more specific.
You were either in on the NCP days of the ARPAnet, the earliest Usenet
(meaning around NC as Jim and Tom were still at school then), or
one of the numerous BBSes like Compuserve when they weren't attached
to many networks or one of the commercial services like GTE Telenet.
But no one was running the IP protocol in 1978.
The only far-sighted people using ther term "internet" were at PARC.
Eugene Miya
>Well I have found this to be an interesting set of threads providing what
>to my eye what are interesting insights into the perspective of a variety
>of backcountry users.
>
>My sense is that there were three classes of responses:
Interesting.
>1) traditional hiker/climber/biker backcountry users of typical
>backcountry/mountains in the lower 48
This is true. With a woods/hills bias.
We have not pulled the Europeans and others in.
>2) hunters
Not many; most in rec.hunting.
>3) what I will for lack of a better word call survivalists
More in misc.survivalism or alt.survival and now like other groups.
>Group 1 is typically focused on weight, needs knives to prepare food and
>cut cords etc., and swiss army knives or multipurpose tools predominate.
>Distance and time out is not the issue (some are long distance/long
>duration trips), low impact on the environment is the issue.
>
>Group 2 needs cutlery to support butchering. Bigger knives, but again
>relatively low impact on the environment.
Helps to have a blade which won't break.
>Group 3 appears (1 data point that I read so far in the thread) to require
>equipment to forge a civilization out of the backcountry. This would
>appear to be high impact activity in the backcountry. Can't say much
>about Canada or Alaska, but in the lower 48, all the backcountry I have
>seen is pretty near the road and has relatively high people impact, and I
>would be quizzical about the appropriateness of this type of use.
Correct about Alaska (a.c.a.) but Montana aspires.
>For grins I will add two more cases of cutlery to the list:
>
>a) in the rainforest of Hawaii, the preferred cutlery, when I was doing
>it, was an 18 inch machete with Sheffield steel blade (typically army
>surplus), or 24 inches if one had the strength. One literally was hacking
>a trail through the jungle.
Ah jungle diversity!
>b) many years ago when travel in the North Cascades area was much lower
>than now and we were generally off trail for most of the time, a light
>weight axe was useful to split wood to get to the dry core for fires. A
>
>"Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer" wrote:
>> D2 Fighting/Utility Knife from Kabar (www.kabar.com). Called a
Naw the question here for Len was who he was planning to fight.
>> "light saber"
8^) Bait. eh?
Eugene Miya
Dan <dnad...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Well, now you are talking "tools." The problem here is, where do you draw
>the line...
It should also be said that Swiss Army knives and other multi tools
as cool as they as are no substitute for real tools. Real screwdrivers,
real wrenches, and real tools have their place.
Knives are largely the minimum that you can get away with on a hiking trip.
But they are largely inadequate for climbing or winter ski
mountaineering, kayaking, and a host of other minimum impact activities
much less biking, etc. Damn, the air compressor in this place is down
for the time I am here.
Same goes with chain saw tools.
And a little hazardous to go kayaking.
Eugene Miya
>> >Rambo was a fictional character, I'm the real thing.
Eugene Miya wrote:
>> You mean that you are a post-tramatic stressed Vietnam-era dude
>> who can wield an M-60 machine gun single handed with accuracy
>> (something even SEALs do with 2 hands)?
In article <3FCA6A4E...@grandshelters.com>,
Ed Huesers <e...@grandshelters.com> wrote:
> Naw, he just means he's real, just like the rest of us.
> No one would lie about their knowledge on usenet, would they?
Real as in human? Real as in physical embodiment?
You need to get to CA some time and visit Ed(theother)'s shop.
He added a 2nd story. But he feels the need to put a web cam (silly).
If Len is claiming that he's ex-SF, those guys get pissed.
The Rolphs
Eugene Miya wrote:
>
>
> >1) traditional hiker/climber/biker backcountry users of typical
> >backcountry/mountains in the lower 48
>
> This is true. With a woods/hills bias.
>
> We have not pulled the Europeans and others in.
Any sense of the European perspective?
> >Group 3 appears (1 data point that I read so far in the thread) to require
> >equipment to forge a civilization out of the backcountry. This would
> >appear to be high impact activity in the backcountry. Can't say much
> >about Canada or Alaska, but in the lower 48, all the backcountry I have
> >seen is pretty near the road and has relatively high people impact, and I
> >would be quizzical about the appropriateness of this type of use.
>
> Correct about Alaska (a.c.a.) but Montana aspires.
Where in Montana? My forays around the edges of Montana indicated a relatively
high usage by people.
>
>
> >For grins I will add two more cases of cutlery to the list:
> >
> >a) in the rainforest of Hawaii, the preferred cutlery, when I was doing
> >it, was an 18 inch machete with Sheffield steel blade (typically army
> >surplus), or 24 inches if one had the strength. One literally was hacking
> >a trail through the jungle.
>
> Ah jungle diversity!
Works great for tree ferns which are soft but relatively rigid. These could
overgrow the trail in as little as a few months, and since in the 60s trails
were often unused for months on end....
We would put a wrist loop on the handle to keep it locked to the hand while
chopping.
>
> >"Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer" wrote:
> >> D2 Fighting/Utility Knife from Kabar (www.kabar.com). Called a
>
> Naw the question here for Len was who he was planning to fight.
>
> >> "light saber"
>
> 8^) Bait. eh?
You are smarter than to take such bait, Eugene!
Ed Huesers
> >> Rec.backcountry is tame by comparison.
> Ed Huesers <e...@grandshelters.com> wrote:
> > You must be itching for Yellowstone...
Eugene Miya wrote:
> Naw, he's right about it being comparatively tame.
Ack.
Oh, he's got a trip to Jellyrock planned for this winter season and
I'd bet he's gettin to itchin real good.
> You have not seen Curtis or Tomm of late have you?
Still catchin up after trade show.
Blonde TV anchor got done with winter camping scene and is asked,
"would you like to climb the ice tower?". "Sure." Was her immediate
reply.
Roped her up and showed no fear... fell twice.
Later I commented about showing no fear. "Oh, I used to rock climb
when I lived in WA, Smith rock...".
Haven't been to a.c.a. since trip but no tom here...
Jerry M. Wright
<mach...@coldmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
> I for one would be interested in a good book
>about animal scat and tracks.
A Field Guide to Animal Tracks, Olaus J. Murie is the best I've read.
Still in print.
[snip]
Dan
--
"In any country there must be people who have to die. They are the
sacrifices any nation has to make to achieve law & order."
- Idi Dada Amin
"Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of
Iraq, would have violated our guideline about not changing objectives in
midstream. .and would have incurred incalculable human and political
costs. .We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect rule
Iraq. .There was no viable 'exit strategy' we could see. .Going in and
occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations' mandate,
would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression
that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United
States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile
land. It would have been a dramatically different -- and perhaps barren --
outcome."
- Elected President Bush
"Eugene Miya" <eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> wrote in message
news:3fca629f$1@darkstar...
> >> mod the sub line.
>
> In article <iT9yb.16738$o9.3073@fed1read07>,
> Pat OConnell <nvcaver.F...@cox.net> wrote:
> >Well, I try.
>
> Harder hodawg!
>
> >>>>> What is the saw for?
> >>>>My SAK (a Victorinox Ranger) has a very small wood saw.
> >
> >Like I said, I've only used the saw blade on my SAK a couple of times.
Not
> >worth it to carry a separate saw when hiking/backpacking.
> >
> >The last time I've built a campfire, I was car camping, and actually
> >carried a small bow saw (normally used for pruning trees). We were camped
> >in an area with a lot of downed pine trees with 4 inch trunks (aftermath
of
> >a long ago windy storm, perhaps). We just broke off branches to start the
> >fire, and slowly fed trunks, top first, into the fire. Lazy, but
efficient,
> >and the saw wasn't used.
>
> Big white man fire!
>
> I just usually break smaller kindling off by hand.
And for the big coals, nothing is useful beyond that which can be broken by
foot.
Still haven't found a use for a saw while backpacking. But that is just my
own
personal preference.
Dan
Ed Huesers
> >> >Rambo was a fictional character, I'm the real thing.
> Eugene Miya wrote:
> >> You mean that you are a post-tramatic stressed Vietnam-era dude
> >> who can wield an M-60 machine gun single handed with accuracy
> >> (something even SEALs do with 2 hands)?
> Ed Huesers <e...@grandshelters.com> wrote:
> > Naw, he just means he's real, just like the rest of us.
> > No one would lie about their knowledge on usenet, would they?
Eugene Miya wrote:
> Real as in human? Real as in physical embodiment?
Only electrons here, Capm. It's usenet, enter at your own risk.
> You need to get to CA some time and visit Ed(theother)'s shop.
Things are changing. You pointed out the mfg. thing a couple months
ago, still holding on here. Just.
Looks like lots of snow this year. Trying my damdest to get to Can.
this year. Some guy named Lloyd.
Bussiness may switch over as to primary source of income.
> He added a 2nd story. But he feels the need to put a web cam (silly).
Interesting Ed.
> If Len is claiming that he's ex-SF, those guys get pissed.
Only electrons. There are switches.
Lloyd Bowles
"Ed Huesers" <e...@grandshelters.com> wrote>
> Looks like lots of snow this year. Trying my damdest to get to Can.
> this year. Some guy named Lloyd.
You mean me? I'm Lloyd & I've invited you to Canada before.
I hope you're right about lots of snow. A bunch of us at Canadian Canoe
Routes are doing a little camping at an isolated spot about 150km NW of
Sudbury in late February. We'll get there on the Budd Car (a train
consisting of 2 powered cars). One of the group owns an Icebox Igloo Maker
& has promised to bring it. Wanna come?
Lloyd Bowles
The Mad Canoeist
www.madcanoeist.4ever.cc
Gary S.
wrote:
>>> vise grips
>>
>>I forgot about Vise Grips. I carry a small one as a pot lifter and for
>>miscellaneous repairs.
>
>Pot handle is lighter.
>But has less utility.
The mini sizes of ViceGrips, especially the longnose version, work far
better as pliers than the multitools. Look for the 4LN and 6LN sizes.
This is one instance where you should only get the real original brand
of them, (currently a part of Irwin Industrial Tool) IMO.
Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence
Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom
Ed Huesers
> > Looks like lots of snow this year. Trying my damdest to get to Can.
> > this year. Some guy named Lloyd.
Lloyd Bowles wrote:
> You mean me? I'm Lloyd
You da one.
> I've invited you to Canada before.
Twice actually. Before I was ever on the group and last year.
> I hope you're right about lots of snow.
Was up last night and built a solo. Was very windy and I built down
off the ridge top this time.
Looks like a 30 inch base. The base was rock solid last weekend when
the temps were down in the single digits f. Now, this week end it was
right at freezing yesterday and just above freezing today. The snow
isn't quite as solid as it was last weekend. I was falling through a bit
when I went off trail but I lucked out and some skiers had snowshoed up
the exact route I wanted to do. They stopped a few hundred yards short
of where I wanted to set up camp but it was pretty much level along the
ridge top.
It's been cold this season and I haven't seen this good of a base in
years.
> A bunch of us at Canadian Canoe Routes are doing a little camping
Sounds like 30 or so. I think it was just over 20 last year.
> Sudbury in late February.
Pete says it's not a good year for me to come. But opportunity may be
knocking.
> We'll get there on the Budd Car (a train
> consisting of 2 powered cars).
Same, same. Third lake this time though. With more to break trail and
what has been learned about breaking trail, you'll probably make it this
year.
Man, them's some big sleds and a lot of gear.
> One of the group owns an Icebox Igloo Maker
> & has promised to bring it.
Heh, she's quite inspired by it too;) Young and many good years of
igloo building ahead.
> Wanna come?
The desire has always been there, if it is a good snow year...
Getting close to xmas.
Gary S.
wrote:
>And for the big coals, nothing is useful beyond that which can be broken by
>foot.
>
>Still haven't found a use for a saw while backpacking. But that is just my
>own
>personal preference.
>
Many go out and never use wood to burn, but there are times and places
where it might make sense.
There was a time when backcountry groups in certain areas had to carry
certain tools like a shovel, saw or ax because a condition on the area
use permit included that you would be "volunteering" if there were a
forest fire.
Mach Twain
>>MT
>>I remember the way he tried to drag down a real bear
>>expert a few years back.
>Who real bear expert?
>
About three years ago (4?) there was a thread comparing black bears
from different areas as to their propensity for eating people. Someone
from the East (Virginia, Carolinas?) posted some good stuff that
McBugle trashed out of hand.
MT
Pat OConnell
>>> mod the sub line.
>
> In article <iT9yb.16738$o9.3073@fed1read07>,
> Pat OConnell <nvcaver.F...@cox.net> wrote:
>>Well, I try.
>
> Harder hodawg!
>
>>>>>> What is the saw for?
>>>>>My SAK (a Victorinox Ranger) has a very small wood saw.
>>
>>Like I said, I've only used the saw blade on my SAK a couple of times. Not
>>worth it to carry a separate saw when hiking/backpacking.
>>
>>The last time I've built a campfire, I was car camping, and actually
>>carried a small bow saw (normally used for pruning trees). We were camped
>>in an area with a lot of downed pine trees with 4 inch trunks (aftermath of
>>a long ago windy storm, perhaps). We just broke off branches to start the
>>fire, and slowly fed trunks, top first, into the fire. Lazy, but efficient,
>>and the saw wasn't used.
>
> Big white man fire!
No--small fire at one end of the (not very large) trunks (in this case I
believe we used 2 or 3 of them). You feed wood into the fire by moving the
trunk toward the fire. No chopping or sawing necessary, and we had 5 gals.
of water (from a nearby spring) to put out the fire when we were done (no
fire danger that year, by the way). The rest of the trunks were left for
others, as others had left them for us.
> I just usually break smaller kindling off by hand.
Well, this wasn't the campout where I used the SAK saw. That was elsewhere,
and the dead branches were a tough hardwood of some kind.
>>> Loppers are useful.
>>
>>I have those too (tree trimming again), but never took them camping.
>
> Clandestine trail maintenance.
XC ski trail maintenance crews carry them, IIRC.
>>> vise grips
>>
>>I forgot about Vise Grips. I carry a small one as a pot lifter and for
>>miscellaneous repairs.
>
> Pot handle is lighter.
> But has less utility.
Which is why I carry the Vise Grips; they lock, have more than one use, and
they work on all pots. Not that I've tried, but the Gerber pliers don't
lock, so are not as useful.
Pat OConnell
> On 30 Nov 2003 13:35:27 -0700, eug...@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya)
> wrote:
>
>>>> vise grips
>>>
>>>I forgot about Vise Grips. I carry a small one as a pot lifter and for
>>>miscellaneous repairs.
>>
>>Pot handle is lighter.
>>But has less utility.
>
> The mini sizes of ViceGrips, especially the longnose version, work far
> better as pliers than the multitools. Look for the 4LN and 6LN sizes.
I use the small shortnose version. It was what I had on hand when I got the
idea of using it as a pot gripper in the first place (car camping--I'd lost
the "official" pot gripper, but had the Vice Grip). I'll try the longnose
version sometime.
> This is one instance where you should only get the real original brand
> of them, (currently a part of Irwin Industrial Tool) IMO.
Absolutely right! Accept no substitutes, including the Craftsman
imitations, which come a very distant second.
cy...@tiny.net.invalid
>
>The first mention of "Cyli" as an author in rec.backcountry was 24 August
>1995, according to Google.
>
That would be me. AFAIK, there's only been one other cyli on the 'Net
and he gave up the alias when he graduated or dropped out of a college
in my state. I've not checked on the username recently, though.
--
rbc: vixen Fairly harmless
Hit reply to email.
Though I'm very slow to respond.
http://www.visi.com/~cyli
Eugene Miya
Pat OConnell <nvcaver.F...@cox.net> wrote:
>Absolutely right! Accept no substitutes, including the Craftsman
>imitations, which come a very distant second.
I would not mind substitutes for the small ones.
I would not want to lose better tools, so cheapers ones used
infrequently are expendable.
Eugene Miya
Mach Twain <mach...@coldmail.com> wrote:
>>>I remember the way he tried to drag down a real bear
>>>expert a few years back.
(Eugene Miya) wrote:
>>Who real bear expert?
>
>About three years ago (4?) there was a thread comparing black bears
>from different areas as to their propensity for eating people. Someone
>from the East (Virginia, Carolinas?) posted some good stuff that
>McBugle trashed out of hand.
In that case I will check have to search backward to find that post.
I don't recall it.
Black bears are more harmless these days than in the past except when
cornered or in relatively unusual situations like with children,
and they are nothing compared to grizzlies and polar bears.
Eugene Miya
Gary S. <Idontwantspam@net> wrote:
>On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 16:02:22 -0800, "Dan" <dnad...@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>>And for the big coals, nothing is useful beyond that which can be broken by
>>foot.
Big coals take time to burn which some parties don't have.
>>Still haven't found a use for a saw while backpacking. But that is just my
>>own
>>personal preference.
>>
>Many go out and never use wood to burn, but there are times and places
>where it might make sense.
>
>There was a time when backcountry groups in certain areas had to carry
>certain tools like a shovel, saw or ax because a condition on the area
>use permit included that you would be "volunteering" if there were a
>forest fire.
Conditions for getting fire permits include having a shovel, a bucket
for water, and other fire items.
Amusing, just saw a video game (arcade size) based on fire fighting.
Eugene Miya
Ed Huesers <e...@grandshelters.com> wrote:
>> Len M. wrote:
>> >> >Rambo was a fictional character, I'm the real thing.
>
No, more than merely electrons. You got bits on ferrite which will get
plastered into a few optical disks and backed up to limited tape for a
while. It's storage as well as transmission.
>> You need to get to CA some time and visit Ed(theother)'s shop.
>
> Things are changing. You pointed out the mfg. thing a couple months
>ago, still holding on here. Just.
> Looks like lots of snow this year. Trying my damndest to get to Can.
>this year. Some guy named Lloyd.
> Business may switch over as to primary source of income.
Diversify. Use care.
I would not count chickens just yet. Snow levels are staying high.
>> He added a 2nd story. But he feels the need to put a web cam (silly).
>
> Interesting Ed.
In many ways.
You guys would like each other more than merely having the same first name.
>> If Len is claiming that he's ex-SF, those guys get pissed.
>
> Only electrons. There are switches.
Naw, the SF guys like to stay real.
Can't blame them.
Eugene Miya
Dan <dnad...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>And for the big coals, nothing is useful beyond that which can be broken by
>foot.
Ditto.
>Still haven't found a use for a saw while backpacking. But that is just my
>own personal preference.
Saws aren't for everybody.
I went about 20 years before I got a Swen which wasn't for firewood.
Now Tuthill has it.
Then I inherited 2 gas powered chain saws. And then I had to maintain
these saws. Now I have to help maintain other people's saw as well.
Eugene Miya
> Oh, he's got a trip to Jellyrock planned for this winter season and
>I'd bet he's gettin to itchin real good.
I've never been super interested in the Nation's first park.
>> You have not seen Curtis or Tomm of late have you?
>
> Still catchin up after trade show.
Yeah I know what you mean as I just got back myself from Phoenix with 4
boxes of stuff that I had not planned to pick up.
> Blonde TV anchor got done with winter camping scene and is asked,
>"would you like to climb the ice tower?". "Sure." Was her immediate
>reply.
> Roped her up and showed no fear... fell twice.
> Later I commented about showing no fear. "Oh, I used to rock climb
>when I lived in WA, Smith rock...".
Oh that's common. People freezing up ice towers all over the place.
> Haven't been to a.c.a. since trip but no tom here...
Yeah but Curtis posts there.
Dennis and Floyd are spending mroe time there and have seen less of Bud.
Eugene Miya
>> >1) traditional hiker/climber/biker backcountry users of typical
>> >backcountry/mountains in the lower 48
>>
>> This is true. With a woods/hills bias.
>> We have not pulled the Europeans and others in.
>
>Any sense of the European perspective?
You need to troll for Martin or Chris or some of the others from
various parts of Europe. Ask.
>> >Group 3 appears (1 data point that I read so far in the thread) to require
>> >equipment to forge a civilization out of the backcountry. This would
>> >appear to be high impact activity in the backcountry. Can't say much
>> >about Canada or Alaska, but in the lower 48, all the backcountry I have
>> >seen is pretty near the road and has relatively high people impact, and I
>> >would be quizzical about the appropriateness of this type of use.
>>
>> Correct about Alaska (a.c.a.) but Montana aspires.
>
>Where in Montana? My forays around the edges of Montana indicated a relatively
>high usage by people.
Away from the flatlands.
The people I know live near Missoula North of Salmon, ID at the MT border,
and elsewhere. They still have the romantic ideas of building log
cabins even if you can buy a kit these days. You can see kit log
cabins off I80 in CA, and I am certain that some get built (would not
otherwise be profitable)
misc.rural topic.
>> >For grins I will add two more cases of cutlery to the list:
>> >
>> >a) in the rainforest of Hawaii, the preferred cutlery, when I was doing
>> >it, was an 18 inch machete with Sheffield steel blade (typically army
>> >surplus), or 24 inches if one had the strength. One literally was hacking
>> >a trail through the jungle.
>>
>> Ah jungle diversity!
>
>Works great for tree ferns which are soft but relatively rigid. These could
>overgrow the trail in as little as a few months, and since in the 60s trails
>were often unused for months on end....
>
>We would put a wrist loop on the handle to keep it locked to the hand while
>chopping.
Yeah that's the machete thread brought up by others.
>> >"Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer" wrote:
>> >> D2 Fighting/Utility Knife from Kabar (www.kabar.com). Called a
>> Naw the question here for Len was who he was planning to fight.
>> >> "light saber"
>>
>> 8^) Bait. eh?
>
>You are smarter than to take such bait, Eugene!
I am watching and listening to SW: Ep 2. in a window next to yours
hearing what Lucas had to say about production values.
It's funny how Europeans view swords (e.g., fencing, romance).
It's cultural how Japanese view swords (life).
Gary S.
wrote:
>Amusing, just saw a video game (arcade size) based on fire fighting.
Where was this?
In the parts of the US I've been to, the vast majority of video arcade
games seem to involve shooting, slicing, zapping, or otherwise
inflicting harm on opponents, very high personal violence.
When I was last in Canada, the closest to this was a moose hunting
game, all the rest were far less violent, sports oriented. Can't say
if this is typical for Canada, as I really don't pay a lot of
attention to video games.
Pat OConnell
IIRC the difference in price between the imitations and real Vise Grips is
not all that much.
Gary S.
wrote:
>In article <2gzyb.20723$o9.7350@fed1read07>,
Ironically, the tiny name brand Vice Grips go for about $12 to 14 US,
which is a fraction the price of any real multi-tool (I don't count
the single-use ones).
Andrew Bading
Mach Twain wrote:
Resurrected from Gooooogle for your reading pleasure.
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&threadm=8c9ncs%24e4m%241%40nnrp1.deja.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dblack%2Bbears%2Blen%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26safe%3Doff%26selm%3D8c9ncs%2524e4m%25241%2540nnrp1.deja.com%26rnum%3D1
doc
>
>
>doc wrote:
>> Rec.backcountry is tame by comparison.
>
> You must be itching for Yellowstone...
>
> Ed Huesers
> Shameless plug: http://www.grandshelters.com
Actually, I am. But, I don't understand the reference, unless its to the
"untamed wilderness" of Yellowstone. Did you see the recent National
Geographic photos of Yellowstone in winter?
Regards,
doc
doc
Ed, I'm considering an Ice Box and would like some advice to help me better
picture how I could use the shelters created therewith. I notice you offer
different size poles. Can one just leave a certain size pole behind to
equal the weight of either individual package?
Mostly, I'll be soloing, but sometimes might have 2-4 total in a group.
When soloing, I picture my 6'2" self in my 0 degree, 7" loft sleeping bag,
wanting to stay about a foot away from any wall (since I tend to slide some
during the night, at least in a tent or snow cave). It seems like an 8 foot
igloo might be too small, but I like the idea of moving less snow as a
soloist. Maybe I could dig a small depression so I slide less. Perhaps the
igloo walls are not as sharply angled as they are in my tent, and if so,
then 8 feet may be more practical than I envision. I'd appreciate your
opinion. How many 6'2" people do you estimate can comfortably fit in the
various size igloos?
How long might it take a soloist to build the 8 and 9 foot versions the
first time and then after some experience?
Although, I understand one can use a lighter bag in an igloo, I want to take
a zero degree bag in case I need to hunker down in my bivy sack (possibly
with vapor barrier liner) in below zero temps without a snow shelter. Also,
can the igloo be ventilated enough (assuming below 0 outside temps) to avoid
overheating in a 0 or -10 degree bag? Would leaving the door uncovered be
enough?
If I build a series of snow shelters with the plan of backtracking and using
them again, what is the etiquette about others using an empty snow shelter.
Have you ever gone back to a previous shelter and found it inhabited? I'm
picturing a shelter in a popular place such as Yellowstone (near where the
snow coaches drop one off near the lodge that is open in winter), along the
Mt. Whitney Trail, or in Little Yosemite Valley. I realize that hiding the
shelter may be the best solution.
Regards,
doc
doc
>In article <939jsvkabqe22d8uv...@4ax.com>,
>doc <d...@home.spamfree> wrote:
>>Although I started using the "internet" in about 1978, I have only been
>
>Why the quotes? You can be more specific.
>You were either in on the NCP days of the ARPAnet, the earliest Usenet
>(meaning around NC as Jim and Tom were still at school then), or
>one of the numerous BBSes like Compuserve when they weren't attached
>to many networks or one of the commercial services like GTE Telenet.
>But no one was running the IP protocol in 1978.
>
>The only far-sighted people using ther term "internet" were at PARC.
>
>>posting in rec.backcountry as "doc" since February 1998. I filtered
>>"Mu-s-k-ie" long ago and certainly never posted under that name, "Todd," or
>>"Sparkles."
>>
>>The first mention of "Cyli" as an author in rec.backcountry was 24 August
>>1995, according to Google.
From Britannica 2003 Ultimate Reference Suite DVD (under "Internet")
"In 1974 Vinton Cerf, then at Stanford University in California, and this
author, then at DARPA, collaborated on a paper that first described such a
protocol and system architecture—namely, the transmission control protocol
(TCP), which enabled different types of machines on networks all over the
world to route and assemble data packets. TCP, which originally included the
Internet protocol (IP), a global addressing mechanism that allowed routers
to get data packets to their ultimate destination, formed the TCP/IP
standard, which was adopted by the U.S. Department of Defense in 1980. By
the early 1980s the “open architecture” of the TCP/IP approach was adopted
and endorsed by many other researchers and eventually by technologists and
businessmen around the world."
In 1978 (I was still in Junior High School), I was using a network at CSULB
that was linked up to networks at other universities. I don't remember what
the link was called, so I didn't specifically reference it. I used the
quotes to indicate a loser (pre-cursor, if you will) definition than some
might attribute to the term "internet" since all this detail might be lost
on many. I did realize that you would likely probe further. It is
possible, even likely, that in 1978 all networks accessible from CSULB were
homogeneous rather than heterogeneous. I don't know at what point they
achieved heterogeneous access or specifically began use of TCP/IP protocol.
I am also uncertain as to what year they started allowing dial-up access at
CSULB. I do have some early recollection of Telenet availability at CSULB.
I didn't start using Compuserve until some time later. Mostly, I used
Compuserve for access to SABRE. For years, I could consistently find better
deals on airfares than any travel agents were willing to quote. Even the
airline reservationists would routinely quote higher fares unless I probed
and prodded until the lower fares were "found" by them.
Regards,
doc
Chris Townsend
writes
>In article <3FCA7263...@10.net>, The Rolphs <ro...@10.net> wrote:
>>> >1) traditional hiker/climber/biker backcountry users of typical
>>> >backcountry/mountains in the lower 48
>>>
>>Eugene Miya wrote:
>>> This is true. With a woods/hills bias.
>>> We have not pulled the Europeans and others in.
>>
>>Any sense of the European perspective?
>
>You need to troll for Martin or Chris or some of the others from
>various parts of Europe. Ask.
I'll bite. It depends where you are in Europe and what you're doing.
SAKs are the most popular with hikers (they are Swiss after all).
Hunters and anglers carry bigger knives. My local town has three
hunting/fishing shops with wide arrays of knives in the windows.
In France Opinel knives are popular and inexpensive. In Scandinavia I've
seen many people with small sheath knives on their belts.
I carry one of the smaller SAKs (Climber) for hiking and a multi-tool on
ski tours, when various tools may be needed.
At home I have bow saws, a felling axe and a hatchet as I live in the
woods and burn wood. This is unusual in the UK!
Peter Clinch
> You need to troll for Martin or Chris or some of the others from
> various parts of Europe. Ask.
A SAK, Mountaineer model generally does for me. I'll usually take a
Leatherman skiing in case some bit of bc-bodgery wants the pliers.
On paddling trips my fishing friends take gutting knives. For paddling
trips with woodland camping in remote spots, hand axe and bow saw aren't
*that* unusual to cut up firewood, high level in the UK there aren't
many trees to speak of so not much point in taking "woodcraft" equipment...
This thread cropped up a couple of years ago, and a backwoods sheath
knife advocate looked at the pix on my site of the Skye Cuillin and said
something like "see what you mean, I can't see what I'd want with a
sheath knife there!". The woodlands in the UK aren't very extensive and
"woodland skills" here are generally about management, not surviving 3
days' trek from the nearest road. I know a few people who work as park
rangers and none habitually carry knives. OTOH they do know how to use
chain saws...
In the UK, if you're hunting and/or fishing you'd probably want a
serious knife to butcher/fillet whatever you've got. If you're a diver,
you'll almost certainly want a serious knife. Paddlers often carry
short knives to cut entangling lines in an emergency (I use a 3"
serrated folder that sits on my PFD/BA). Scouts and hobbysits like
sheath knives for whittling. Beyond that, most of the serious knife
market in the UK is, I'd guess, catering for people who Just Like Knives.
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.c...@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
Mach Twain
>
>
>Mach Twain wrote:
>
>>>I remember the way he (Len) tried to drag down a real bear
>>>>expert a few years back.
>>>>
>> (and)
>> About three years ago (4?) there was a thread comparing black bears
>> from different areas as to their propensity for eating people. Someone
>> from the East (Virginia, Carolinas?) posted some good stuff that
>> McBugle trashed out of hand.
>
>Resurrected from Gooooogle for your reading pleasure.
>http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&threadm=8c9ncs%24e4m%241%40nnrp1.deja.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dblack%2Bbears%2Blen%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26safe%3Doff%26selm%3D8c9ncs%2524e4m%25241%2540nnrp1.deja.com%26rnum%3D1
Yup, that's the thread. I guess that the article referred to then is
gone.
Here is the 'outdoor expert's' parting shot:
"And why do you think there are no wildlife
experts in the northcountry, especially since that's where all the
animals live? End of thread."
Mach Twain
Lloyd Bowles
"Ed Huesers" <e...@grandshelters.com> wrote...
> > Ed Huesers wrote:
> > > Looks like lots of snow this year. Trying my damdest to get to Can.
> > > this year. Some guy named Lloyd.
>
> Lloyd Bowles wrote:
> > You mean me? I'm Lloyd
>
> You da one.
> Man, them's some big sleds and a lot of gear.
Yes, it was a lot of gear. Those hot tenters really pack a lot of stuff.
There were 5 canvas tents with woodstoves, several lawn chairs, a chainsaw,
etc.
I packed to cold camp with 2 young English friends. My load was about the
same as the closest sled in this photo
http://www.angelfire.com/on3/madcanoeist/Picindex/CCRwinter03/4.jpg . My
English friends had much less than that. So we had an easy time on the
trail & still got to enjoy the benefits of the hot tents during the day.
> > One of the group owns an Icebox Igloo Maker
> > & has promised to bring it.
>
> Heh, she's quite inspired by it too;) Young and many good years of
> igloo building ahead.
I'll break down & buy one yet.
Lloyd Bowles
www.madcanoeist.4ever.cc
Ed Huesers
> >> Rec.backcountry is tame by comparison.
> Ed Huesers wrote:
> > You must be itching for Yellowstone...
doc wrote:
> Actually, I am. But, I don't understand the reference, unless
> its to the "untamed wilderness" of Yellowstone.
Oh, tame... around the campfire... knowing each other.
> Did you see the recent National Geographic photos of
> Yellowstone in winter?
Nope, but I've one small book a photographer did. Ice fog on trees so
heavy it breaks the trees down. The colors in the pools sure stand out
when outlined in white. Ice formations are endless. You can see the
buffalo breathing.
Ed Huesers
doc wrote:
> Ed, I'm considering an Ice Box and would like some advice to help me better
> picture how I could use the shelters created therewith.
Heh, going into my seventh year of igloos and I'm still learning.
> I notice you offer different size poles.
Yes, the thought was to make it affordable for all.
> Can one just leave a certain size pole behind to
> equal the weight of either individual package?
If you can predetermine the size of igloo you want to build, yes. You
can even leave another pole behind if you have the old Ramer ski poles
with the spring clip that snaps into the holes for length adjustment.
> Mostly, I'll be soloing, but sometimes might have 2-4 total in a group.
We slept five in an eleven footer very comfy and that is with a
trench.
> When soloing, I picture my 6'2" self in my 0 degree, 7" loft sleeping bag,
> wanting to stay about a foot away from any wall (since I tend to slide some
> during the night, at least in a tent or snow cave).
For sliding you might consider one of those bags where the pad slides
into a pocket on the bottom. Mine seems to hold me put. If you have a
gortex or dry loft bag there is no need to worry about touching the
walls. If you do touch the walls, your feet or what ever will get cold
and you'll move.
Myself, I have just a regular nylon bag but protect my bag by laying
gear along the walls. I lay my poncho ground cloth up over the foot of
my bag and put my gortex coat by my head with all the extra clothes in
it.
> It seems like an 8 foot igloo might be too small, but I like the idea of moving
> less snow as a soloist.
Yes, it's a lot less work than the nine footer. It's 3.5 cu.yds. vs.
4.5 cu.yds. of snow.
I'd think it'd be big enough for you. We sleep two 5"10" along side a
trench [one along each side] and if you dug the trench differently, you
could sleep directly across the center and still have room for a 5'10"
along one side. Here's a picture of how we do it:
http://www.grandshelters.com/images/igloo-building-cs-2-s2.jpg You can
see a pair of knees sticking out from inside the sectioned igloo. The
feet are in the trench and the stove is sitting where we didn't dig the
trench all the way across the igloo.
> Maybe I could dig a small depression so I slide less.
Just pile up a little ridge of snow. The floors end up being
perfectly flat if you maintain them with sweeping strokes of the shovel
while building the igloo.
> Perhaps the igloo walls are not as sharply angled as they are in my tent, and
> if so, then 8 feet may be more practical than I envision.
Well, this is the same sectioned igloo and it is an eight footer:
http://www.grandshelters.com/images/igloo-building-cs-s2.jpg and the
walls are tipped in 22 degrees on it and the nine footer. The ten and
eleven lean in at 24 degrees.
> I'd appreciate your opinion.
You can pile a bit of snow up outside and hollow out the wall a bit
for you feet and head.
> How many 6'2" people do you estimate can comfortably fit in the
> various size igloos?
If everyone was 6'2" then it'd be one in the eight, two in the nine,
three in the ten and possible five in the eleven. We sleep three 5'10"
in the nine in a triangular shape around the trench, four in the 10 with
the trench at an angle so two along one side of the trench and one along
the other side and still one more across the back of the igloo. Then I
slept five very comfy in the eleven footer last spring.
> How long might it take a soloist to build the 8 and 9 foot versions the
> first time and then after some experience?
The first time is really up in the air. Some people claim as much as
6 hours with a couple people but most come in the first time around 3
1/2 to 4 hours where we build the eight footer in one hour forty
minutes. I've built a few solo igloos and it seems to take me anywhere
from 3 1/2 to 5 hours depending upon where I'm building them and the
snow conditions.
> Although, I understand one can use a lighter bag in an igloo, I want to take
> a zero degree bag in case I need to hunker down in my bivy sack (possibly
> with vapor barrier liner) in below zero temps without a snow shelter. Also,
> can the igloo be ventilated enough (assuming below 0 outside temps) to avoid
> overheating in a 0 or -10 degree bag? Would leaving the door uncovered be
> enough?
If you have the top of the door below the floor, then leaving the
door open makes a few degrees difference, just enough to freeze the
water bottle. If the door is above the floor, it will be nearly outside
temperatures below the top of the door if the door is left off. It is
nice having the door low so you can sit around with your gloves off
while enjoying the evening.
It the door is 18 inches above the floor and I use a tarp for a door,
the water bottles freeze at night. I think it'd be a better option to
leave you bag unzipped a bit.
This does depend a lot on your body chemistry also. I'm a warm
sleeper and I sweat in my -20 bag and just a little in my 0 degree bag.
The temperature at the floor will be 34 degrees all night with door
below the floor and using a door.
> If I build a series of snow shelters with the plan of backtracking and using
> them again, what is the etiquette about others using an empty snow shelter.
On Denali a climber was allowed to use his igloo as a cache and no
one bothered it but people did line up when he was clearing out his
gear. One guy dove into the door to claim the igloo.
> Have you ever gone back to a previous shelter and found it inhabited?
Most of mine are in pretty obscure places but I have had people pass
within twenty feet and not even know it's an igloo once it gets a
blanket of snow on it. They just look like a rock or a bush covered in
snow.
> I'm picturing a shelter in a popular place such as Yellowstone (near where the
> snow coaches drop one off near the lodge that is open in winter), along the
> Mt. Whitney Trail, or in Little Yosemite Valley. I realize that hiding the
> shelter may be the best solution.
I'd put it out of sight, the nat'l parks ask that you camp out of
sight from trails anyway.
Ed Huesers
http://www.grandshelters.com
Eugene Miya
Peter Clinch <p.j.c...@dundee.ac.uk> wrote:
>I know a few people who work as park
>rangers and none habitually carry knives.
Well that brings up a post-9/11 (11/9 for Europeans) plane
security issue. It is something that I watch. On one mailing list
with one of the guys who developed the Apple MacIntosh cited his reasons
for using a Swiss Amry knife to do a whole bunch of things like fix
a broken airline seat (pre-9/11), etc. Etc.
On the post-9/11 flip side,
I have seen MANY pro-search letters to the editor in newspapers by many airline
users wondering why anyone would board a plane carrying a SAK. These are
people really incensed that any people could complain and the annual seizure
statistics is in the multiple millions for pocket knives to this day
to say nothing of the serious threats like firearms (this is in the
passenger cabin not checked luggage), tear gas, and other less serious
threats like scissors, needles, etc.
Eugene Miya
doc <d...@home.spamfree> wrote:
>>>Although I started using the "internet" in about 1978, I have only been
>>
>>Why the quotes? You can be more specific.
>>You were either in on the NCP days of the ARPAnet, the earliest Usenet
>>(meaning around NC as Jim and Tom were still at school then), or
>>one of the numerous BBSes like Compuserve when they weren't attached
>>to many networks or one of the commercial services like GTE Telenet.
>>But no one was running the IP protocol in 1978.
>
>
>"In 1974 Vinton Cerf, then at Stanford University in California, and this
>author, then at DARPA, collaborated on a paper that first described such a
"This author" has to be Bob Kahn.
>standard, which was adopted by the U.S. Department of Defense in 1980. By
>the early 1980s the “open architecture” of the TCP/IP approach was adopted
>and endorsed by many other researchers and eventually by technologists and
>businessmen around the world."
Bob should have put "kicking and screaming."
>In 1978 (I was still in Junior High School), I was using a network at CSULB
>that was linked up to networks at other universities. I don't remember what
>the link was called, so I didn't specifically reference it. I used the
One sister went to CSULB. Yeah I know the CDC based system you had
(they would know in comp.sys.cdc). Since gone as a limited
functionality proprietary network.
>quotes to indicate a loser (pre-cursor, if you will) definition than some
loyal opposition
>might attribute to the term "internet" since all this detail might be lost
>on many. I did realize that you would likely probe further. It is
>possible, even likely, that in 1978 all networks accessible from CSULB were
>homogeneous rather than heterogeneous. I don't know at what point they
>achieved heterogeneous access or specifically began use of TCP/IP protocol.
>I am also uncertain as to what year they started allowing dial-up access at
>CSULB. I do have some early recollection of Telenet availability at CSULB.
Other parts of the CSU system got a clue earlier. I saw SJ, Humboldt,
Hayward, Stanisalis and Fresno first hand. I had a summer student for a
couple of years and recommended for his senior year project to install
UUCP (the initial lower level layers of Usenet in the earlier 80s as a
reasonable thesis project [didn't follow my advice]). I put Turlock
and Fresno on the net (a friend and former classmate is now Dean of
the Eng. school in Fresno, very handy for visiting CS faculty passing
through Yosemite).
CSULB was briefly on BITNET.
The CSU's conservatism was the result of math depts. winning the CS
Dept. wars (in the UC system engineering depts. tended to win). Math
depts. largely didn't understand computers.
TCP really didn't take over since its start in the 1982-1985 time frame.
The European telephony people and the IBM folk much less DEC followers
didn't really realize how clueless they were as to the difficulty
implementating their designs and their lack of functionality while
the DARPA people moved on to useful work (with its own limitations).
>I didn't start using Compuserve until some time later. Mostly, I used
>Compuserve for access to SABRE. For years, I could consistently find better
>deals on airfares than any travel agents were willing to quote. Even the
>airline reservationists would routinely quote higher fares unless I probed
>and prodded until the lower fares were "found" by them.
Yeah Compuserve joined relatively late as well. Those guys were some
friends years ago (since assimilated and blended in).
Only the French Telecom Minitel system remains more recalcitent,
but most French have their own Internet access.
Eugene Miya
Gary S. <Idontwantspam@net> wrote:
>Ironically, the tiny name brand Vice Grips go for about $12 to 14 US,
>which is a fraction the price of any real multi-tool (I don't count
>the single-use ones).
Yeah, but the vast majority of multitools aren't clamps.
That's why wise grips are useful. There is one small Swiss multitool
which clamps in limited situations. A clamp is functionally almost as
useful as a Third Hand.
My Gerber was great fixing a rudder cable on a rented 2 man kayak in Mexico.
A SAK would have been less than adequate (had those, too). But a vise
group would have been even more useful.
Eugene Miya
Gary S. <Idontwantspam@net> wrote:
>On 30 Nov 2003 21:16:08 -0700, eug...@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya)
>wrote:
>>Amusing, just saw a video game (arcade size) based on fire fighting.
>
>Where was this?
A new theater (went to see Matrix III) near Mark@sonora dot ed.
Rohnert Park.
The game was a surprise. It featured 2 fire hoses (electronic no water)
with nozzles. I am not certain if Back Draft was ever made into a video
game (not hard to check, but this game was not based on Back Draft, and
the BD theme music is nicely used on Iron Chef. I didn't check the game
name trademark date.
>In the parts of the US I've been to, the vast majority of video arcade
>games seem to involve shooting, slicing, zapping, or otherwise
>inflicting harm on opponents, very high personal violence.
Majority yes, it sells just as paint ball and mazes are a growth area.
Large portions of the country use ROTC as a way out of town.
Crazy climber, the various Pac-Men, Tetris, Donkey kong, various driving
and motorcycling and biking, and one ski game are non-shoot them up
games. I've also seen almost a dozen attempts at games specifically
tagetted toward the female audience (Mattel always wins with Barbie in
the end, and camping Barbie doesn't rate high (I grew up about 5 miles
from Mattel HQ and a friend's dad was a V-P there [he had Hot-Wheels[tm]
before anyone])). I don't go to the gaming conferences, but I know guys
who work at most of those companies like EA and Sierra Online (in fact,
I have to get the R-rated Leisure Suit Larry for our Museum).
I like shoot them up games (Mach III and Defender Star Gate were my max
favs) but I've largely outgrown them and also looked at serious military
games (actually they are more jokes at this time but educational on the
small and medium scale).
Oh yea and don't forget the various Sims and Myst.
The next time I might see it may be Jan. $9 to see a flick these nites.
>When I was last in Canada, the closest to this was a moose hunting
>game, all the rest were far less violent, sports oriented. Can't say
>if this is typical for Canada, as I really don't pay a lot of
>attention to video games.
Well that's the salmon ad where the human steals the bear salmon,
human shuffling like Ali then getting kicked in the balls.
That was a co-worker's brother. Canada being a comaratively small
place, eh?