Is Gore-Tex overrated ?
Kelvin Cheu
Last weekend I read a few chapters of the book "Pleasure Backpacking"
by Robert Woods, 1992 edition. He wrote that Gore-Tex breathability
was overrated. He quotes from Gore's company report that 85% of the
body vapour escapes from coller, waist, zippers etc, and that makes
users have the illusion that Gore-Tex garment really breath. The only
time Gore-Tex works is in ideal laboratory condition. No wonder all
the Gore-Tex parka I saw at stores all have mesh around and so many
zippers.
Gore-Tex is expensive because all manufactures who want to use
Gore-Tex mambrane have to ship their product to Gore-Tex factory in
Maryland and then get it back. With this monopoly and transportation
cost no wonder those things are so expensive.
After reading this I realized why my Vasque Skywalk boots (with
Gore-Tax lining) is always wet at the toes after an hour of hiking.
I always thought that my foot sweat a lot. The moisture probably
escapes from the shoe collar, but those around my toes has no place
to go.
Does anybody care to comment ?
Kelvin
BTW, in his book he mentions that Sierra Design, North Face, Euraka,
and several other brands have their tents made from the same factory
in Korea. Why ? Because they all own by the same holding company
based in Hong Kong. So, has anybody been shopping in Hong Kong and
perhaps Korea (or countries in Asia) and found cheaper price over
there ?
Dave Bernard
I have long thought that Gore-Tex is overrated, and would
never again shell out the big bux for it. IMO, the best
use of Gore-Tex is as a windbreaker.
No matter how I have sealed the seams, etc., of Gore-Tex
garments, I have had seepage. Every year I read how Gore-Tex
has now corrected these problems, and how the garments are now
completely waterproof. However, the Gore-Tex stuff I bought in
1979 was also marketed as completely waterproof, yet breathable,
and did I ever get soaked in it.
The overselling of Gore-Tex occurs when the audience is not informed
that, even allowing that G-T IS waterproof yet breathable, IT IS NOT
BOTH AT ONCE. If it is raining outside, it does not breathe; hence, it
is at best as good as the cheapest $5.00 throwaway vinyl raincoat (or
garbage bag with a hole cut out). If it is not raining out, a cotten/poly
parka is very possibly more breathable. At best, G-T allows you to carry
one expensive, rather than two moderately cheap, garments.
I know others will differ, but this has been my own experience.
Dave
Donald R. Newcomb
>
>Last weekend I read a few chapters of the book "Pleasure Backpacking"
>by Robert Woods, 1992 edition. He wrote that Gore-Tex breathability
>was overrated. He quotes from Gore's company report that 85% of the
>body vapour escapes from coller, waist, zippers etc, and that makes
>users have the illusion that Gore-Tex garment really breath. The only
>time Gore-Tex works is in ideal laboratory condition. No wonder all
>the Gore-Tex parka I saw at stores all have mesh around and so many
>zippers.
No offense intended Kevlin; is this the beginning of the monthly
"is Gore-Tex any good" thread? Isn't there a FAQ on this subject?
If my calendar is right, we should be getting a question about
Zip Ztoves any day now. 8-)
--
Donald R. Newcomb * The one who dies with the most toys
dnew...@whale.st.usm.edu * has accomplished nothing beyond
new...@usmcp6.bitnet * enslaving himself to his possessions.
smathy werp
i always say .. theres nothing like a full body covering of silicon
to keep out the rain .. it not quite as beathable as GoreTex but
it is alot more water proof .. *8^) .. thats all
--
| Life: Jason | IRC: elephant | email: jk...@socs.uts.EDU.AU |
Theo de Raadt
been as happy with any jacket that I have bought. Admittedly it was
quite expensive, but nothing else I have ever bought has kept me from
building up a sweat on a mountainbike ride in cold/windy weather as
well as it has. Goretex is the friend of the heavy exerciser.
I don't care as much at the moment about it's waterproofness in rain.
In the summer I'll judge the effects of it in rain when I come to that
-- though normally while hiking/climbing a mountain I'd rather let
myself get wet from rain than sweat. I'd never before considered that
there might be a fabric that would work in ALL situations. If
gore-tex will, then wonderful. If it won't, no loss because nothing
else will. It keeps me dry from sweat while in cold/windy weather --
that's what is important to me.
It is also very important that your jacket have underarm zippers. Man,
are those useful.
<tdr.
--
This space not left unintentionally unblank. der...@newt.cuc.ab.ca
Bob Fyfe
>
> Gore-Tex is expensive because all manufactures who want to use
> Gore-Tex mambrane have to ship their product to Gore-Tex factory in
> Maryland and then get it back. With this monopoly and transportation
> cost no wonder those things are so expensive.
I was in a backpacking shop last week and a guy told me that the patent(?)
was up on G-T and that you should see a lot more/different products out on
the market in the next couple of years.
Anyone have any comment on the other Gore-Tex-like products out there now?
bobb
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Lowell Skoog
>The overselling of Gore-Tex occurs when the audience is not informed
>that, even allowing that G-T IS waterproof yet breathable, IT IS NOT
>BOTH AT ONCE.
Maybe true. For me the value of Gore-Tex is that, after getting wet,
if you find shelter, you can keep the garment on and dry out. I
think that is valuable. You can't do that in a non-breathable
garment.
--Lowell Skoog
Seattle, Washington
William Warburton
|> I just bought my first gore-tex jacket a week or so ago. I've never
|> been as happy with any jacket that I have bought. Admittedly it was
|> myself get wet from rain than sweat. I'd never before considered that
|> there might be a fabric that would work in ALL situations. If
|> gore-tex will, then wonderful. If it won't, no loss because nothing
|> else will. It keeps me dry from sweat while in cold/windy weather --
|> that's what is important to me.
IMHO This sums up the arguments for Goretex perfectly- if you want to
be comfortable & can afford it then don't hesitate.
If the cost matters & you are looking for perfection to justify the
expense then don't bother.
Is Goretex marketed as a miracle material in the US? In Britain it is
advertised as a comfortable, waterproof fabric and I think that people
don't generally expect it to be more than that, however I have seen
several postings from Americans who feel they have been ripped off
because a garment was expensive & didn't do what they expected.
W.
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Mike Quigley
?
?Last weekend I read a few chapters of the book "Pleasure Backpacking"
?by Robert Woods, 1992 edition. He wrote that Gore-Tex breathability
?was overrated. He quotes from Gore's company report that 85% of the
?body vapour escapes from coller, waist, zippers etc, and that makes
?users have the illusion that Gore-Tex garment really breath. The only
?time Gore-Tex works is in ideal laboratory condition. No wonder all
?the Gore-Tex parka I saw at stores all have mesh around and so many
?zippers.
?
?Gore-Tex is expensive because all manufactures who want to use
?Gore-Tex mambrane have to ship their product to Gore-Tex factory in
?Maryland and then get it back. With this monopoly and transportation
?cost no wonder those things are so expensive.
?
?After reading this I realized why my Vasque Skywalk boots (with
?Gore-Tax lining) is always wet at the toes after an hour of hiking.
?I always thought that my foot sweat a lot. The moisture probably
?escapes from the shoe collar, but those around my toes has no place
?to go.
?
?Does anybody care to comment ?
Agreed. Gortex is over-rated, largely useless in severe
environments, and much too expensive. BUT, it's trendy. And that's
its appeal.
High climbers and backcountry uses who are exposed to severe
conditions never use Gortex, or use it only once (if they survive
the first time!).
Stick to waterproof fabrics and you can't go wrong. Gortex is okay
for yuppie dudes.
Mike
Mark_Donohoe
:
: Agreed. Gortex is over-rated, largely useless in severe
: environments, and much too expensive. BUT, it's trendy. And that's
: its appeal.
:
: High climbers and backcountry uses who are exposed to severe
: conditions never use Gortex, or use it only once (if they survive
: the first time!).
:
: Stick to waterproof fabrics and you can't go wrong. Gortex is okay
: for yuppie dudes.
Get a clue! I was really going to stay out of this...but this one tears it.
1st off, MANY world class mountaineers use gortex all the time...
For example, most of the British (Chris Bonnington ring a bell?) us it...
Jeff Lowe does, Mugs Stump (now gone...no his clothes didn't get wet while
wearing gortex...), etc...the list is very long...and no these people are not
yuppies...Many depend on it in very desperate situations.
I have used both, and still prefer Gortex. Gortex is not perfect, but still
works better than anything else I have tried (including top of the line
Patagonia and Helly Hansen, and Sierra Designs etc....).
As Lowell also states, Gortex allows you to dry out while wearing it,
something a coated fabric will NOT do. BTW, Lowell knows from whence he
speaks, as he lives in the Seattle area and climbs in the Cascades.
Buy what you can and hope it works out well for you. You can often find
gortex on sale and then it is often quite competitive with a good coated
fabric...ALSO, Gortex can wear out, but probably not as fast as a coating...
Something to think about.
--
Mark Donohoe (ma...@cup.hp.com)
Dave Bernard
I don't know if it makes much of a difference whether outdoor celebrities
use Gore-Tex, since often they can get their clothing gratis from vendors in
exchange for being seen in the stuff, or indeed for advertising it.
Try the stuff, you might love it. Maybe you can rent a garment. For me, its
been a disappointment, and not worth the price. I like to wear old expendable,
or at least cheap, clothing for the outdoors, not flashy expensive stuff, and
I think lots of people survived the ice age on mile-high glaciers without the
stuff. On the other hand, many people love it. You really want an argument,
let's talk about waxed cotton...
Dave
Kelvin Cheu
I just received the North Face latest catalog in my mail.
It contains several mountain climbers endorsing North Face
and other products in the entire gear set. One thing I
noticed - that 2 out of 5 climbers do not use GT shell.
Why ?
Although those gears are expensive, I believe in most cases,
if you are famous enough the manufacturer will pay you a
fortune to wear it.
Kelvin
Mike Doyle
writes:
Gore-Tex was the product utilized by the international expedition which
crossed the Antartic in 1990. They used Gore-Tex jackets, pants, gloves and head
gear. In fact the Japanese member of the team survived when lost for 4 hours in a
storm due to the warmth and waterproof qualities of the Gore-Tex garments he was
wearing.
As an aside I have skied in Gore-Tex gear in virtually all conditions and find it
bothe breathable and waterproof. They also are one of the few companies which
actually live up to their lifetime guarantee.
PB Endecott (PhD SFurber)
> (about Gore-Tex not really being breathable, and about getting wet feet
inside a pair of Gore-Tex boots)
Interesting. I have never had a problem with either Gore-Tex or SympaTex
(the French stuff that's chemically the same) failing to breath, but a
couple of weeks ago I climbed Snowdon (the highest mountain in Wales, for
those of you from overseas) in very wet and windy weather and my
overtrousers and jacket both leaked. Judging from the distribution of the
dampness on my clothes underneath, it was the fabric itself and not the
seams that failed. Suprisingly, my feet stayed totally dry inside my
Gore-Tex KSB boots.
I'm going to take the overtrousers back and see what the retailers say,
since they are "Garaunteed to keep you dry" !
--Phil.
Luca De Alfaro
Goretex is probably overrated. I have a GT coat, and it's not
waterproof at all -- 20 minutes of rain are enough to get soaked. But
I like it for two reasons:
First of all, it's VERY light. It keeps me much warmer than a sweater
(even when there's no wind), and it weighs much less. And I don't
sweat very much inside it (even though a sweater is better for that).
Secondly, it dries fairly quickly when it gets wet, which is good
because it allows you to either continue carrying it or putting it
away in the backpack when dry (much lighter to carry!).
Also, I bought my coat in Europe, where GoreTex is not considered to
have any miracolous property (less efficient advertisement?), so that
I wasn't disappointed.
Luca
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Luca de Alfaro Lu...@cs.stanford.edu cosi` e` se vi pare
Paal Ellingsen
breathes well, but leaks; others have got the opposite experience. Well, now you
can add another experience to the list: I have used my gore-tex jacket for 5
years now, and I have found it to be as waterproof as anything else I have tried.
It is just as waterproof now as it was 5 years ago, so it doesn't seem to wear
out quickly. On the other hand, I do not think it breathes very well. It works
best in temperatures about 10'C under humid conditions, but in low temperatures
(< -5'C) it does not breathe at all.
These problems with gore-tex in low temps. was also observed by the Norwegian
North-Pole expedition 1989. They found cotton to be the best choice for their
use.
Paal Ellingsen/pa...@cs.uit.no
Theo de Raadt
I think lots of people survived the ice age on mile-high glaciers without the
stuff. On the other hand, many people love it. You really want an argument,
They were smart -- they stayed sheltered as much as they could, rather than
venture to the tops of mountains. To sweat is to die. "For me" gortex makes
this a bit less of a worry.
Dave Bernard
But they had to spend the daylit hours hunting. Temps were constantly cold, year
round. Exposure is as serious on top of a glacier as on top of a mountain glacier.
Remember, these were arctic conditions- just as are found on top of the rockies.
And they didn't get to look forward to central heating and hot toddy once the climb
was done. These folks were professional survivors.
Hmm- what a concept for a business- a mail order shop for ice-age gear, just like
the real guys used to wear!
B
swa...@brandonu.ca
should point out, however, that I have not ever really tested its properties
to the extremes that Gore claims it can withstand. I just think it is
important to remember that for Gore-Tex to work best it must be pampered. It
has to be kept clean. For it to remain breathable, especially under wet
conditions, water must bead up on the surface. If the garment is not clean, the
water will not bead up. If the water doesn't bead up, then the garment
'wets-out' and it cannot breathe.
As a result you should wash your Gore-Tex frequently in warm water and tumble
dry on warm. For added benefit use a warm iron. In this way the water repellent
coating on the surface will be rejuvinated, preserving its ability to cause
water to bead.
I have never had my Gore-Tex leak and I use it mostly when cycling. As a result
it is perfect for keeping out the rain and wind, but I will admit that I can
still work up a sweat. I do prefer it, however, to a simple nylon windsuit as
I find that I get pretty hot and sweaty in a nylon shell, even when just
walking around a shopping mall, whereas I do not get that feeling with my
Gore-Tex jacket.
David
--
David Swayze | SWA...@BrandonU.CA | Reading furnishes the mind only
Brandon University | Canada (pokey) Post: | with materials of knowledge; it
Brandon, Manitoba | 56 Wilnor Bay | is thinking which makes what we
Canada | Brandon, MB, R7B 3H1 | read ours. John Locke
Chris Mathes
> IMHO This sums up the arguments for Goretex perfectly- if you want to
>be comfortable & can afford it then don't hesitate.
> If the cost matters & you are looking for perfection to justify the
>expense then don't bother.
If cost is a problem, then check out catalogs that cater to hunters,
specifically Cabella's. The Goretex raingear I saw in there was
_much_ cheaper than what I have seen on _sale_ at outdoor outfitters (less
than half the price in many cases). The only disadvantage I can think
of is that this stuff probably doesn't have all the bells and whistles
that the higher priced garments have, e.g. lots of big pockets, and huge
underarm zippers. FWIW though, they still have to meet certain standards
set by the Gore company in order to carry the Gore label. One plus (at
least to me) is that the colors were very subdued compared to what is
marketed to yuppie outdoor types. I get tired of trying to find the least
obnoxious combination of day-glo colors when shopping for hiking clothes.
Hunting catalogs are also good sources for less expensive long underwear
(in all of the latest, new-and-improved fabrics, of course), socks,
wool garments, etc.
-Chris
--
Chris Mathes, Metters Industries, Inc. UUCP: {..!}uunet!metter!chris
Tel:(703)418-0323 INET: ch...@metter.fmpmis.metter.com
"The Tao of Programming flows far away and returns on the wind of morning."-TToP
Bill Downing
It also doesn't seem to stand up to abuse very well (it tears fairly
easily). Scotchgard will renew some of its waterproofing, but only
temporarily. I agree about its light weight and quick drying ability.
But if you absolutely require something that will waterproof against
long, soaking rains, I'd be inclined to get PVC raingear instead.
It's also less expensive...
--
Bill Downing, President Email: bdow...@unixland.natick.ma.us
DOWNING ASSOCIATES, INC.
8 Doyle Lane, Hopkinton, MA 01748
508-435-4567
Chris Solnordal
even though they all claim to be using Gore-Tex technology.
I know nothing about how they're all put together but I do know
this:
My father bought a GT jacket for skiing in Norway, and it was
wonderful there (where the snow is dry), but back in Australia
(where we have lots of rain) it is useless. I am not sure of
the brand of this jacket.
However, I have a GT jacket that I bought for general walking
backcountry use (in the above-mentioned rain) and have only
got a little wet at the top of the zip (pathetically sealed with
one of those velcro cover things). I've been in pouring rain
all day and come out completely dry. This jacket is made by
Mountain Designs.
So is it the GT, or is it the way it's used ?
You tell me
Chris.
Bob Erkamp
Are you sure that this isn't from perspiration? I've had a Gore-Tex jacket for
a few years now and it's never leaked. I find that when it's very humid that I
will perspire heavily though. I don't think you can blame this on the Gore-Tex.
Bob
PB Endecott (PhD SFurber)
>In article <endecotp....@cs.man.ac.uk>, ende...@cs.man.ac.uk
(PB Endecott) writes:
>>A couple of weeks ago I climbed Snowdon (the highest mountain in Wales, for
>>those of you from overseas) in very wet and windy weather and my
>>overtrousers and jacket both leaked. Judging from the distribution of the
>>dampness on my clothes underneath, it was the fabric itself and not the
>>seams that failed.
>Are you sure that this isn't from perspiration? I've had a Gore-Tex jacket for
>a few years now and it's never leaked. I find that when it's very humid that I
>will perspire heavily though. I don't think you can blame this on the Gore-Tex
>Bob
Yes, I'm completely certain. In previous years when I've been walking in
non-breathable watherproofs in similar conditions I've noticed no more than
a little perspiration - I don't sweat that much. But on the trip I
described my trousers were completely soaking, not just damp - so wet you
could wring them out. I think that five or six hours in heavy rain is just
too much for the stuff.
-- Phil.
Derek Tearne
>In article <13...@texsun.Central.Sun.COM> dber...@clesun.Central.Sun.COM (Dave Bernard) writes:
>>I think lots of people survived the ice age on mile-high glaciers without the
>>stuff. On the other hand, many people love it. You really want an argument,
>They were smart -- they stayed sheltered as much as they could, rather than
>venture to the tops of mountains. To sweat is to die. "For me" gortex makes
>this a bit less of a worry.
They also had clothing made of the ultimate breatheable material -
animal skins!
I have a lightweight goretex coat and a (now unused) Peter Storm<tm>
traditional nylon coat. They are very similar in style and cut. Cycling
in a summer rainstorm in Auckland in the Peter Storm resulted in great
discomfort, overheating, profuse sweating and a horrid sticky feeling.
Solution - The goretex coat which is an enormous improvement.
OK so I still sweat and get a little overheated but nothing like as bad.
Goretex isn't some miracle force field which protects you from the rain
without any insulating effects. It is a just like wearing an extra layer
of cotton clothing - two tee shirts instead of one. Sure you are still
going to sweat - you just don't end up swimming in it.
--
Derek Tearne. -- de...@nezsdc.icl.co.nz -- Fujitsu New Zealand --
Some of the more aware dinosaurs were worried about the environmental
consequences of an accident with the new Iridium enriched fusion reactor.
"If it goes off only the cockroaches and mammals will survive..." they said.
Andrew Hastings Arno
I have never used any clothing that was treated with Gore-Tex, but from what I've read in this newsgroup, it tends to be rather ineffective. I guess the best thing to do when backpacking is to always keep a pair of clothes dry in a garbage bag (or something equivalent) and have a pair of boots treated with Gore-Tex since carrying more than one pair can be very bulky and heavy.
raymond thomas pierrehumbert
Somehow this thread makes me think...
We used to have the "teflon president." Are we now going to
have the "Gore-Tex vice president?" [**fill in rest of
joke here, as per inclinations and political persuasion.]
22161-bunz
Yes and no. Gore-Tex is supposed to be breathable, and let all that
nasty perspiration stuff out so that your inner layers don't get wet.
But lets face it, if the sweat is running down your face, you cann't
expect Gore-Tex to wick away all the moisture on the rest of your
body, if it did I'd think that we could do away with all the air conditioners!
Marc
PS I've always been happy with my Gore-Tex coat, and have only gotten
wet due to EXCESSIVE persiration.
Lisa Belec
>> IMHO This sums up the arguments for Goretex perfectly- if you want to
>>be comfortable & can afford it then don't hesitate.
>
>> If the cost matters & you are looking for perfection to justify the
>>expense then don't bother.
>
>If cost is a problem, then check out catalogs that cater to hunters,
>specifically Cabella's. The Goretex raingear I saw in there was
>_much_ cheaper than what I have seen on _sale_ at outdoor outfitters
There are also several "warehouse" type places which sell discontinued
models (i.e. last year's colors) at substantial discounts - one in
particular is Sierra Trading Post (phone 307-775-8000 - call and ask
them to send you a cataolog) - I've had lots of success with them and
their prices are usually really good...I think they get "leftovers"
from various companies.
Gene Moreau
>>> IMHO This sums up the arguments for Goretex perfectly- if you want to
>>>be comfortable & can afford it then don't hesitate.
>>
>>> If the cost matters & you are looking for perfection to justify the
>>>expense then don't bother.
>>
>>If cost is a problem, then check out catalogs that cater to hunters,
>>specifically Cabella's. The Goretex raingear I saw in there was
>>_much_ cheaper than what I have seen on _sale_ at outdoor outfitters
Well you may want to be wary of the _much_ cheaper Gore-tex jackets. from
What I have heard and seenof these jackets the fabric is as water proof as
Gortex gets, but it's the seems that you need to watch for. If you are
going to buy a jacket make sure that all the seems are factory heat taped.
This is why most "cheap" Gore jackets leak. what good is a water proof jac
jacket if the seems leak?? Another thing I have heard and experienced is
keep your jackect clean!!! wash it before any trip and after you get back.
It won't work if it's dirty.
--
Gene Moreau | "Morning comes far to early when it's cold
University of Mantitoba | outside and there is a maniac on the loose"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada | - unknown
ummo...@cuu.umanitoba.ca