Payne Stewart's racist "Chinese impression" act, autopilot
TANAKA Tomoyuki
i hadn't heard about this racist incident.
i suppose the world of professional US golfers is even more
racist than, say, the world of professional US tennis players.
i was wondering how autopilot worked. how many years before
we can remote-control/land planes in similar cases?
Wang Ba-dan <lao...@PRC.org> wrote:
>
> He gave an interview on ESPN during a rain delay doing a very
> bad Chinese accent. He scrunched up his eyes and pretended
> to have buck teeth. If you ever saw that Gilligan's Island
> where the Japanese soldier washes up you'll know what I mean.
> See it on Sportscenter. He later offered a half-assed apology.
> Actually, he didn't apologize.
>
>
>> Anybody else see this jackass on ESPN doing his Chinese
>> waiter improv? Golf is such a great game; not only is it an
>> environmental nightmare, an incredible waste of space and a
>> pursuit of the elite class, it is also the last bastion of
>> racialist 'humor'. Anything goes in the country club, I guess.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
http://espn.go.com/golfonline/tours/pga/1999/991021/00003415.html
or
http://espn.go.com/golfonline/tours/pga/1999/991022/00003429.html
both webpages provide details of the incident
(presented in a way to condone anti-Chinese racism)
and there are two avi video clips as well....
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr Nakanishi's letter to Kumagaku Univ President (in Japanese)
re: racially-motivated harassment by Joseph Tomei
http://www.deja.com/=dnc/[]/getdoc.xp?AN=504535344.1
cf: http://www.mail-archive.com/fuku...@ucsd.edu/msg08732.html
;;; TANAKA Tomoyuki ("Mr. Tanaka" or "Tomoyuki")
;;; http://www.cs.indiana.edu/hyplan/tanaka.html
"R&B"
It was a response to a comment by British golf commentator Peter Alliss, who
made the original "racist" comment. I don't have the exact quote, but the
Alliss remark essentially said that Americans were "as bad as the Chinese."
Payne's remark and the accent and dialect in which he delivered it was an
affront to PETER ALLISS, not to the Chinese. He was throwing Alliss's
comment right back at him, and was not taking a cheap shot at any group of
people. If anyone did that, it was Peter Alliss.
I'm really sick of people taking this incident out of context. Every
judgemental comment made about Stewart regarding this only display's the
poster's own ignorance about what actually happened, and illustrates that
they "tuned in late."
Randy
===================================================
e-mail: Ra...@mindspring.com
website: http://wwwgolfer.home.mindspring.com
RSG Roll Call profile: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/brownr.htm
===================================================
"You can't teach an old dog math."
TANAKA Tomoyuki <tan...@mother.com> wrote in message
news:7v8cti$mou$1...@step.mother.com...
golfan
be to don a "black face" ala Ted Danson and give this person my 2
cents worth. Oh, I'm sure no blacks will take offence to this
(sarcastically). The black people will understand, because I"M just
responding to someone else's racial comments. Right.
On Wed, 27 Oct 1999 22:54:37 -0400, "\"R&B\"" <Ra...@mindspring.com>
wrote:
bma...@utmem.edu
<Ra...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Let's be very clear about this. Stewart's remark was not made in a vacuum.
> It was a response to a comment by British golf commentator Peter Alliss, who
> made the original "racist" comment. I don't have the exact quote, but the
> Alliss remark essentially said that Americans were "as bad as the Chinese."
>
> Payne's remark and the accent and dialect in which he delivered it was an
> affront to PETER ALLISS, not to the Chinese. He was throwing Alliss's
> comment right back at him, and was not taking a cheap shot at any group of
> people. If anyone did that, it was Peter Alliss.
>
> I'm really sick of people taking this incident out of context. Every
> judgemental comment made about Stewart regarding this only display's the
> poster's own ignorance about what actually happened, and illustrates that
> they "tuned in late."
Stewart could just as easily have condemned the acts of Allis with his
normal voice; in fact it would have been more effective to do so.
Using an accent and gestures does little, but reinforce that this is
the way white Americans view Asians.
By the way, you are showing ignorance as well because there is not a
single Asian, or even Chinese, accent.
I don't consider Stewart's comments purposely racist, but he was dumb
as a rock to respond in that manner. What he did was wrong. If you
really want this to die, stop wrongly defending him and it will pass.
B. Martin
Ivan Chang
> normal voice; in fact it would have been more effective to do so.
> Using an accent and gestures does little, but reinforce that this is
> the way white Americans view Asians.
>
> By the way, you are showing ignorance as well because there is not a
> single Asian, or even Chinese, accent.
>
> I don't consider Stewart's comments purposely racist, but he was dumb
> as a rock to respond in that manner. What he did was wrong. If you
> really want this to die, stop wrongly defending him and it will pass.
>
> B. Martin
Give this guy a break, he is already dead. Don't let this little event mar
his image, instead look at the big picture - he did lots of good stuffs when
he was alive. Btw, I'm Chinese so what if he made some stupid remarks before
he died.
TerryG
Alyss was commenting on how different we Yanks are in how we behaved
during the Ryder Cup - so different, we might as well be Chinese. I
don't see anything racist in his remark. He was just using the Chinese
to represent what he considers to be a group that is very different from
the Brits and saying the we Yanks are just as different. I may be
missing something but I just don't see anything racist in what he said.
Nationalities and ethnicities have their differences which we should
take pride in, by the way. And yes, I think that British and Chinese
people are quite different. Different does not mean bad. Payne Stewart
got into trouble by being perceived to be mimicking Chinese people
although I doubt that's what he was trying to do. I agree with others
who have said that he was poking fun at Alyss and unintentionally
offended our Asian brethren in the process. This has all been most
unfortunate - especially considering the timing. Legitimate points have
been made on both sides of the issue and I hope we have all learned
something. I know I have.
In article <7v8dve$4p5$1...@nntp2.atl.mindspring.net>,
"\"R&B\"" <Ra...@mindspring.comSPAMBLOCKER> wrote:
> Let's be very clear about this. Stewart's remark was not made in a
vacuum.
> It was a response to a comment by British golf commentator Peter
Alliss, who
> made the original "racist" comment. I don't have the exact quote, but
the
> Alliss remark essentially said that Americans were "as bad as the
Chinese."
>
> Payne's remark and the accent and dialect in which he delivered it was
an
> affront to PETER ALLISS, not to the Chinese. He was throwing Alliss's
> comment right back at him, and was not taking a cheap shot at any
group of
> people. If anyone did that, it was Peter Alliss.
>
> I'm really sick of people taking this incident out of context. Every
> judgemental comment made about Stewart regarding this only display's
the
> poster's own ignorance about what actually happened, and illustrates
that
> they "tuned in late."
>
--
What we're all involved in here is an exercise in
communications.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Oliver Lu
>In article <7v8dve$4p5$1...@nntp2.atl.mindspring.net>, "\"R&B\""
><Ra...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>> Let's be very clear about this. Stewart's remark was not made in a vacuum.
>> It was a response to a comment by British golf commentator Peter Alliss, who
>> made the original "racist" comment. I don't have the exact quote, but the
>> Alliss remark essentially said that Americans were "as bad as the Chinese."
>>
>> Payne's remark and the accent and dialect in which he delivered it was an
>> affront to PETER ALLISS, not to the Chinese. He was throwing Alliss's
>> comment right back at him, and was not taking a cheap shot at any group of
>> people. If anyone did that, it was Peter Alliss.
>>
>> I'm really sick of people taking this incident out of context. Every
>> judgemental comment made about Stewart regarding this only display's the
>> poster's own ignorance about what actually happened, and illustrates that
>> they "tuned in late."
>
>Stewart could just as easily have condemned the acts of Allis with his
>normal voice; in fact it would have been more effective to do so.
>Using an accent and gestures does little, but reinforce that this is
>the way white Americans view Asians.
>
>By the way, you are showing ignorance as well because there is not a
>single Asian, or even Chinese, accent.
(snip)
>B. Martin
No but there is a common understanding of what a Chinese accent sounds
like when Americans want to make fun of them, which in practical terms
negates the reality that there is more than one Chinese or
Chinese-American accent.
Don Kirkman
<7v8cti$mou$1...@step.mother.com>:
> i suppose the world of professional US golfers is even more
> racist than, say, the world of professional US tennis players.
I suppose you don't have a glimmering of knowledge about the world of
professional US golfers OR that of professional US tennis players (yah,
all those white players, like Williams, Williams, Chang, Ashe, Segura,
Olmedo, Seixas, Santana, Sanchez-Vicario, Goolagong, Gibson).
Your point would be much better made by sticking to golf--and even there
it's a decade or more out of date.
[...]
--
Don
mst
>Alyss's actual quote is in the NG somewhere.
>I may be
>missing something but I just don't see anything racist in what he said.
It is a very common phenomenon for people to try and downplay or softpedal
racist behavior in those whom they admire. This may be an understandable
reaction, but it's not particularly helpful to the larger cause of fostering
mutual understanding and an end to prejudicial behavior.
>And yes, I think that British and Chinese people are quite different.
>Different does not mean bad.
Alliss's remarks were offensive because he implied that British/European
culture is superior to American and Chinese cultures. It's not that
Americans and Chinese aren't different from the Brits, obviously they
are...but why use the Chinese as examples of another group that doesn't
*get* European culture when the comment was clearly a put-down of Americans?
Doesn't that imply a put-down of Chinese as well?
As a member of both of the denigrated cultures, I'm offended...especially
since I've spent a number of years studying English language and literature
and I know for damned sure that I appreciate and understand them.
Quite simply, the comment is untrue, Alliss is making a HUGE
overgeneralization of two LARGE groups of people...of COURSE we're going to
be offended. Just because a bunch of American golfers were rude at a golf
tournament does NOT mean that ALL Americans do not appreciate European
culture. It also does not mean that the Chinese are unequivocably unable to
understand European culture either. It only means that Alliss is an
insensitive, arrogant arse (see, I just used a Britishism, and I'm Chinese
American...clearly, that demonstrates that I am able to understand British
culture to some degree, does it not?).
Teri
++++
"Well, since you got here by not thinking, it seems reasonable
to expect that, in order to get out, you must start thinking."
Tock the Watchdog
De mortuis nil nisi bonum.
TerryG
In article <DI8S3.2392$Ec1....@news1.frmt1.sfba.home.com>,
"mst" <ter...@homey.com> wrote:
> TerryG wrote in message <7vadsl$fc8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> >Alyss's actual quote is in the NG somewhere.
> <snip rationalizations>
> >I may be
> >missing something but I just don't see anything racist in what he
said.
>
> It is a very common phenomenon for people to try and downplay or
softpedal
> racist behavior in those whom they admire. This may be an
understandable
> reaction, but it's not particularly helpful to the larger cause of
fostering
> mutual understanding and an end to prejudicial behavior.
I don't know Alliss from a hole in the wall. I don't think I'm biased.
>
> >And yes, I think that British and Chinese people are quite different.
> >Different does not mean bad.
>
> Alliss's remarks were offensive because he implied that
British/European
> culture is superior to American and Chinese cultures. It's not that
> Americans and Chinese aren't different from the Brits, obviously they
> are...but why use the Chinese as examples of another group that
doesn't
> *get* European culture when the comment was clearly a put-down of
Americans?
> Doesn't that imply a put-down of Chinese as well?
You make an excellent point and it occurred to me to extend the put-down
to the Chinese as well. But if we asked Alliss, I suspect he'd say he
picked the Chinese only to emphasize the degree of difference he sees
between the Brits and the Yanks. Of course, that could be a bunch of
bologna. I guess you have me leaning in your direction. So they both
made a mistake. As far as I know, Payne Stewart is the only one to
apologize so far. Am I correct?
>
> As a member of both of the denigrated cultures, I'm
offended...especially
> since I've spent a number of years studying English language and
literature
> and I know for damned sure that I appreciate and understand them.
>
> Quite simply, the comment is untrue, Alliss is making a HUGE
> overgeneralization of two LARGE groups of people...of COURSE we're
going to
> be offended. Just because a bunch of American golfers were rude at a
golf
> tournament does NOT mean that ALL Americans do not appreciate European
> culture. It also does not mean that the Chinese are unequivocably
unable to
> understand European culture either. It only means that Alliss is an
> insensitive, arrogant arse (see, I just used a Britishism, and I'm
Chinese
> American...clearly, that demonstrates that I am able to understand
British
> culture to some degree, does it not?).
The psychology of prejudice is an interesting study. I don't feel
offended in the least by what Alliss said about Americans because of the
context in which I exist. In fact having spent some time in the UK,
my first inclination is to laugh it off. If I were an American living
in the UK, I suspect I'd feel differently. I'd be interested to know if
Chinese people who live outside of China (both) would tend to feel more
offended by what was said than Chinese people who live where they are
not subject to prejudice from other nationalities and ethnicities.
This may be a crux of the issue and why many Americans saw nothing wrong
with what either Alliss of Stewart did. Maybe we Americans need to
think more literally about being in the other person's shoes before we
declare that no harm was done.
>
> Teri
> ++++
> "Well, since you got here by not thinking, it seems reasonable
> to expect that, in order to get out, you must start thinking."
> Tock the Watchdog
>
> De mortuis nil nisi bonum.
>
>
--
RenegadeX
typical of upper-class, traditional British upbringing. Whether Alliss is
any of the above, or likes to think that he is, is another story! Sad to
say, but I guarantee you Alliss really feels this way, and would be
surprised if you told him it was offensive and racist (well, the drinks
might have helped...). <Alliss> should be ashamed. Double standard in play??
Anyhow, I disagree on another point:
As members of an PROFESSIONAL, INTERNATIONAL golf team, the players in the
Ryder Cup tournament (and at this level, <any> tournament) should be on
their BEST BEHAVIOUR. Not only are their personal names & reputations on the
line for any gaffs they may make (and remember they are constantly under the
scrutiny of the media).. but their COUNTRY's reputation is on the line. They
are representatives of their country, whether they are outwardly patriotic
or not (Most Americans are very patriotic, it has been <my> experience to
notice.) So when the American golfers (and wives) are rude at a tournament,
it reflects on Americans as a whole. Even more so in the Ryder Cup (as the
players are the "best" representatives their country has to offer). If they
appear rude, it could understandably be construed & generalized that this is
acceptable, normal behaviour for people of that country. Thus when
professional American golfers act like louts and disrespect the rules &
traditions that have been in place for decades, some people are bound to
lump <all> Americans in the same boat by saying they are rude &
disrespectful.
Secondly, it is known the world over that Americans are generalized as being
rude, ignorant people. Like it or not, it's the truth!! I have lived in 3
European countries, have travelled in most, and now reside in Canada, and
this attitude has been prevalent everywhere I've been. Go to France, for
example, and mention the word "American". They'll most likely turn their
noses up at you. Mention you are Canadian are they'll take you in with open
arms. On the other hand, I've met people of various nationalities who I've
found to be downright rude & disgusting, and have come across (a few!)
Americans who are civil & polite. Whilst it is obviously an unfair
generalization to lump all Americans into this category, you have to wonder
why it came to exist. There <is> some truth behind it, like it or not. It's
just unfortunate that ALL Americans get the stigma attached to their names
simply because of a few compatriots who make asses of themselves.
RenegadeX
Mike Zhiang
[supposed learning experience]
what if Stewart had mocked a British accent? Would that have been racist?
n...@spam.com
>Alliss's remarks were offensive because he implied that British/European
>culture is superior to American and Chinese cultures.
Read it again. He said that Americans thought that British/European
culture was inferior.
> It's not that
>Americans and Chinese aren't different from the Brits, obviously they
>are...but why use the Chinese as examples of another group that doesn't
>*get* European culture when the comment was clearly a put-down of Americans?
>Doesn't that imply a put-down of Chinese as well?
Not at all, unless you equate "different" with "inferior". Alliss' point
was that Americans and British (and Europeans in general) are as different
as night and day. It would be reasonable to expect people with a common
language (English) and a common history (the vast majority of Americans are
of European descent) to have similar cultures. It would not be reasonable
to expect the same of people whose major contact with Europeans was at the
point of a gun, i.e. the Chinese. Alliss saying that Americans might as
well be Chinese was simply saying that Americans have no more in common
with Europeans than Chinese. While this is clearly hyperbolic
exaggeration, it is not racist in the least.
Sperr...@bigfoot.com
>
> OK. If I hear someone make some racist black comments my response will
> be to don a "black face" ala Ted Danson and give this person my 2
> cents worth. Oh, I'm sure no blacks will take offence to this
> (sarcastically). The black people will understand, because I"M just
> responding to someone else's racial comments. Right.
Well stated, Golfan. To a large degree, i think the sensitivity level is
dependant upon a person's ethnic/racial background. I suspect the
individual (below) may not be Chinese American or even Asian.
Sperry The Parrot
>
> On Wed, 27 Oct 1999 22:54:37 -0400, "\"R&B\"" <Ra...@mindspring.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I'm really sick of people taking this incident out of context. Every
> >judgemental comment made about Stewart regarding this only display's the
> >poster's own ignorance about what actually happened, and illustrates that
> >they "tuned in late."
> >
> >Randy
> >===================================================
>
--
"I'm a doctor not a donut baker!"- A tribute to the late Deforest Kelly.
Walter Lee
n...@spam.com wrote:
>
> On Fri, 29 Oct 1999 03:42:27 GMT, "mst" <ter...@homey.com> wrote:
> >Alliss's remarks were offensive because he implied that British/European
> >culture is superior to American and Chinese cultures.
>
> Read it again. He said that Americans thought that British/European
> culture was inferior.
>
> > It's not that
> >Americans and Chinese aren't different from the Brits, obviously they
> >are...but why use the Chinese as examples of another group that doesn't
> >*get* European culture when the comment was clearly a put-down of Americans?
> >Doesn't that imply a put-down of Chinese as well?
>
> Not at all, unless you equate "different" with "inferior". Alliss' point
> was that Americans and British (and Europeans in general) are as different
> as night and day.
This is only half true.
Mr. Alliss statement stereotypes Americans and Chinese
as both disliking europe and european culture
in the following statement.
"Americans are totally different to us,
they might as well be Chinese. In their eyes, pretty much everything
in Europe is rubbish; from the weather to food to cars to hotels
to cinema to countryside to the warmth of the sea to sandwiches;
everything, everything, everything is crap. And that begins to
wear on you after a while."
I do regard Mr.Alliss statement as an negative ethnic stereotype
for both Americans and for Chinese.
Mr. Alliss was displeased with Mr. Stewart's previous conduct
when he says, "In the build-up to this match [Ryder cup], they
reckoned our team had no chance which is why you got
Payne Stewart saying silly things like the Europeans
were just about good enough to caddie for the Americans."
Why Mr.Alliss has to drag the Chinese into his golfing
feud with Mr. Steward is beyond me! What did
the Chinese do to Mr. Alliss?
Oliver Lu
>TerryG <terry...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>[supposed learning experience]
>
>what if Stewart had mocked a British accent? Would that have been racist?
Ummm...no, because England and the U.S. are considered (although it was
never totally true and is less so nowadays) to be white countries, thus
the same "race".
TerryG
don't think what Stewart did was racist. Insulting? Insensitive?
Poor judgement? Sure. All of the above. But not racist. So if I
don't think he was being racist WRT the Chinese, I sure don't think he
would have been racist, if he had mimicked a British accent. Given the
fact that Payne Stewart and any British person are members of the same
race, I don't see how Stewart could be racist toward a British person.
I must say I've never given so much thought to what racism is. It's not
easy to define. And there are several variables that determine its
presence. If the Supreme Court can't define it, I doubt I'm going to
real soon.
In article <7vd51u$pk_...@news.remarq.com>,
mz_n...@yohoo.com (Mike Zhiang) wrote:
> In article <7vadsl$fc8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, TerryG
<terry...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> [supposed learning experience]
>
> what if Stewart had mocked a British accent? Would that have been
racist?
>
--
mst
>You make an excellent point and it occurred to me to extend the put-down
>to the Chinese as well. But if we asked Alliss, I suspect he'd say he
>picked the Chinese only to emphasize the degree of difference he sees
>between the Brits and the Yanks. Of course, that could be a bunch of
>bologna.
I'm sure he would attempt to rationalize his comment. In his mind, it is
entirely possible he CANNOT see why what he said is offensive at all.
Again, this is a very common phenomenon amongst those who have privilege, it
blinds them to the perspective of those who do not share their privilege.
>I guess you have me leaning in your direction. So they both
>made a mistake. As far as I know, Payne Stewart is the only one to
>apologize so far. Am I correct?
Yes, he apologized to some vague "public," not to Chinese or Chinese
Americans. This is why his apology seemed insincere and hollow. But he's
dead, so we're just going to drop it...speak nothing but good of the dead.
>I'd be interested to know if
>Chinese people who live outside of China (both) would tend to feel more
>offended by what was said than Chinese people who live where they are
>not subject to prejudice from other nationalities and ethnicities.
Chinese in China may simply not be exposed to ESPN, Sports Illustrated, or
have any idea who Payne Stewart IS. If they DID see the video, they may not
make the connection between Stewart's imitation and the long history of
Asian caricatures that have traipsed through American cultural products in
the last half century. If you take those factors into consideration, it's
completely likely that they would not be terribly offended...they don't have
the cultural knowledge to recognize such a thing AS offensive.
>This may be a crux of the issue and why many Americans saw nothing wrong
>with what either Alliss of Stewart did. Maybe we Americans need to
>think more literally about being in the other person's shoes before we
>declare that no harm was done.
Yes, I agree with your last sentence. Oftentimes, we tend to think that
since WE'RE not offended, no one else should be, either...that other people
are just oversensitive. While people certainly are not going to always
agree on what's offensive, it's definitely NOT very helpful to dismiss
another person's feelings. If someone else is offended by something that
you do not personally find problematic, it's much more useful to try and
understand WHY the other person feels that way even if you do not agree. At
least it opens up a new perspective...kind of like what is happening here.
--