Re: Electric Plasma Jet Engine: The Future Of Aircrafts

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Byker

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Mar 12, 2021, 4:13:29 PMMar 12
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"World90" wrote in message news:s2gdrn$p9s$1...@dont-email.me...
>
> Hello,
>
> Look at the following video about Electric Plasma Jet Engine:
>
> Electric Plasma Jet Engine: The Future Of Aircrafts
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK7OxoRgakE

Sounds nice, but the Russkies and Chingchongs will just have to
wait for the West to produce it economically, so they can rip it off...

Barrk

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Mar 14, 2021, 12:19:50 AMMar 14
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It won't be produced economically. Just more Star Trek
bullshit. Kerosene and compressed air - it will be THE
best way, by far, for decades. Add up the costs of
losing cheap air transport and then suck it up and stick
with the status quo.

The energy required to get people or cargo 5000+ miles
is just not there, not even CLOSE, for electric means.
Maybe Greta imagines giant "Gossamer Condors" or
Hindenburgs plodding along at 25mph ? Sorry, won't
work. May as well stay on the farm and starve when
the 'tater crop fails just like in the good old dayz.

Lots fewer humans doing a lot less stuff ... Greta
likes that genocidal picture.

Unum

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Mar 14, 2021, 12:33:38 AMMar 14
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On 3/13/2021 11:19 PM, Barrk wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Mar 2021 15:13:21 -0600, "Byker" <byker@do~rag.net> wrote:
>
>> "World90" wrote in message news:s2gdrn$p9s$1...@dont-email.me...
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> Look at the following video about Electric Plasma Jet Engine:
>>>
>>> Electric Plasma Jet Engine: The Future Of Aircrafts
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK7OxoRgakE
>>
>> Sounds nice, but the Russkies and Chingchongs will just have to
>> wait for the West to produce it economically, so they can rip it off...

> The energy required to get people or cargo 5000+ miles
> is just not there, not even CLOSE, for electric means.

But only a tiny fraction of air travel goes 5000+ miles, right?

Keith Willshaw

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Mar 14, 2021, 7:28:37 AMMar 14
to
On 14/03/2021 05:19, Barrk wrote:

> It won't be produced economically. Just more Star Trek
> bullshit. Kerosene and compressed air - it will be THE
> best way, by far, for decades. Add up the costs of
> losing cheap air transport and then suck it up and stick
> with the status quo.
>

Plasma and Ion Drives work well in space because of their high specific
thrust and low mass requirements but they dont work worth a damn in
atmosphere. The electrical power required is high and they dont make
extension leads that long :) The proponents have suggested using
microwave transmission, lots of luck with that on a rainy day. It doesnt
do much good to human beings either.


For short and medium ranges High Speed rail is definitely useful. The
introduction of the 185 mph TGV trains in Europe pretty much decimated
the domestic aviation market and probably coould do well on the US East
Coast. In the UK HS2 is being built and that will provide the
infrastructure for trains that can run at 250 mph but its worth
remembering that HS2 will have stations at Birmingam and Manchester
airports.

Medium aand long haul aircraft will still use turbofan engines but one
option being seriously looked at is using LNG fuel, if nothing else its
cheaper than kerosene.

George Black

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Mar 14, 2021, 3:19:50 PMMar 14
to
On 14/03/21 6:33 pm, Unum wrote:
>
> But only a tiny fraction of air travel goes 5000+ miles, right?

There are many air routes of around 5000 miles
.
Greatest distance between any two points in U.S. territory: 9,514 miles
(15,311 km), from Point Udall, Guam, to Point Udall, St. Croix, U.S.
Virgin Islands (formerly known as Orote Point and East Point,
respectively).[22]
Greatest distance between any two points in the 50 states: 5,859 miles
(9,429 km), from Kure Atoll, Hawaii, to Log Point, Elliott Key, Florida.[22]

Barrk

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Mar 14, 2021, 10:38:05 PMMar 14
to
On Sat, 13 Mar 2021 23:33:36 -0600, Unum <non...@yourbusiness.com>
wrote:
No. The MONEY stuff often goes thousands of miles. If its
right next door you can drive or hop a Greyhound.

Do you really think Amazon has all those planes just so
they can fly junk to the next county ?????

Unum

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Mar 14, 2021, 10:47:51 PMMar 14
to
The money stuff is passengers, most of whom fly well under 5,000 miles.

> Do you really think Amazon has all those planes just so
> they can fly junk to the next county ?????

So its either 5000 miles or the next county? The continental USA
is about 2700 miles coast to coast.

Barrk

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Mar 14, 2021, 11:00:13 PMMar 14
to
On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 11:28:35 +0000, Keith Willshaw
<keithw...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 14/03/2021 05:19, Barrk wrote:
>
>> It won't be produced economically. Just more Star Trek
>> bullshit. Kerosene and compressed air - it will be THE
>> best way, by far, for decades. Add up the costs of
>> losing cheap air transport and then suck it up and stick
>> with the status quo.
>>
>
>Plasma and Ion Drives work well in space because of their high specific
>thrust and low mass requirements but they dont work worth a damn in
>atmosphere. The electrical power required is high and they dont make
>extension leads that long :) The proponents have suggested using
>microwave transmission, lots of luck with that on a rainy day. It doesnt
>do much good to human beings either.

Ever seen a "plasma cutter" ? It's a great alternative to the
old oxyacetylene torch. There are two tungsten electrodes,
a pin inside a ring. Push the button and a high-amperage
arc starts between the electrodes and you blow air through
the gap. The result is a blue-white "flame" an inch or so
long at about 8000 degrees which is mostly "plasma"
that's 20% atomic oxygen. Cuts thick plates of steel like
butter.

That sounds a lot like what this proposed engine is. An
arc superheats air which is then expelled either like a
rocket or tapped to turn a turbine blade (more efficient).

PROBLEM is the AMOUNT of power required to create
that plasma. It's HUGE. Even a smallish plasma cutter
has to be plugged into 220v with a 50 or 60 amp-rated
feed. 60amps x 220v = 13.2 kilowatts, about 17 horsepower.
Your house maybe uses that much if the A/C and water-heater
are on at the same time.

And sorry, that itty bitty flame isn't going to make much
of anything fly. You'd do better using the KWs to heat water
to run a steam turbine.

>For short and medium ranges High Speed rail is definitely useful. The
>introduction of the 185 mph TGV trains in Europe pretty much decimated
>the domestic aviation market and probably coould do well on the US East
>Coast. In the UK HS2 is being built and that will provide the
>infrastructure for trains that can run at 250 mph but its worth
>remembering that HS2 will have stations at Birmingam and Manchester
>airports.

Rail has its place, and it doesn't have to be "high speed".

But, rails use up real-estate and need a lot of service and
only take you to a rather narrow line of destinations. Air
is more versatile. CO2 saved via rail shows up again as
you try to get from the train station to your real destination
30+ miles away. IF you have enough PV cells and windmills
then clean electrics would get you to the final destination,
but those things are not free and a lot of CO2 and other
pollutants are involved in the manufacture. The batteries
are a real disaster too.

>Medium aand long haul aircraft will still use turbofan engines but one
>option being seriously looked at is using LNG fuel, if nothing else its
>cheaper than kerosene.

Airliners blow up easily enough with kerosene, pressurized LNG
would be a lot less safe. Oh, and "pressurized" means you have
to have fuel tanks built strong enough to hold the pressure. That
means a lot more weight.

Barrk

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Mar 14, 2021, 11:14:44 PMMar 14
to
On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 21:47:49 -0500, Unum <non...@yourbusiness.com>
wrote:

>On 3/14/2021 9:37 PM, Barrk wrote:
>> On Sat, 13 Mar 2021 23:33:36 -0600, Unum <non...@yourbusiness.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/13/2021 11:19 PM, Barrk wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 12 Mar 2021 15:13:21 -0600, "Byker" <byker@do~rag.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "World90" wrote in message news:s2gdrn$p9s$1...@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Look at the following video about Electric Plasma Jet Engine:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Electric Plasma Jet Engine: The Future Of Aircrafts
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK7OxoRgakE
>>>>>
>>>>> Sounds nice, but the Russkies and Chingchongs will just have to
>>>>> wait for the West to produce it economically, so they can rip it off...
>>>
>>>> The energy required to get people or cargo 5000+ miles
>>>> is just not there, not even CLOSE, for electric means.
>>>
>>> But only a tiny fraction of air travel goes 5000+ miles, right?
>>
>> No. The MONEY stuff often goes thousands of miles. If its
>> right next door you can drive or hop a Greyhound.
>
>The money stuff is passengers, most of whom fly well under 5,000 miles.

You'd be surprised how much cargo is right under your feet
on those flights.

Actually, passengers are NOT very profitible. Dealing with
people is expensive. Cargo doesn't bitch, cough Covid
at you or sue. There is lots and LOTS of money in cargo.

>> Do you really think Amazon has all those planes just so
>> they can fly junk to the next county ?????
>
>So its either 5000 miles or the next county? The continental USA
>is about 2700 miles coast to coast.

Your electric plane isn't going to get you 27 miles. It's a
horrible idea only THC-saturated Greenies would believe.

Hey now, we'll put all those vaccines on electric airliners
that have to stop every 27 miles for a 12-hour recharge !
Sound good ?



Unum

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Mar 15, 2021, 12:44:38 AMMar 15
to
Most cargo goes well under 5000 miles as well. In 2018, a little
less than half of all air tickets sold globally were for flights
under 500 miles.

>>> Do you really think Amazon has all those planes just so
>>> they can fly junk to the next county ?????
>>
>> So its either 5000 miles or the next county? The continental USA
>> is about 2700 miles coast to coast.
>
> Your electric plane isn't going to get you 27 miles. It's a
> horrible idea only THC-saturated Greenies would believe.
>
> Hey now, we'll put all those vaccines on electric airliners
> that have to stop every 27 miles for a 12-hour recharge !
> Sound good ?

Even retrofit aircraft go 100 miles already. Special-built planes
can fly more than 400 miles with passengers.
https://www.eviation.co/aircraft/#1


Keith Willshaw

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Mar 15, 2021, 7:22:43 AMMar 15
to
DC3's were flying 21 passengers across the USA in the 1930's. Progress
this is not. If you want fast electrically powered transport with a 400
mile or so range then this is how we do it between London and Edinburgh.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_800

Once the line has been resignalled track speed will be raised to 150 mph
and each train will carry 530 passengers. The new HS2 line being built
from London to Manchester will be capable of doing 200 mph city centre
to city centre. None of these tedious security goons, check in desks etc.

If the final destination is beyond the electrified section the hybrid
versions also have diesel power units

Unum

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Mar 15, 2021, 2:08:49 PMMar 15
to
I'm all for electrified trains but please note that the UK would fit
comfortably into the state of Texas, and there is little hope that a
vast new nationwide rail system will be constructed in the USA.

I seriously doubt that an electric plasma engine is going to be powering
any aircraft in the near future. Battery weight has to come way down
in order to make EV planes good for long flights, but progress is definitely
being made.

George Black

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Mar 15, 2021, 3:16:11 PMMar 15
to

I can get on the latest passenger aircraft in South Africa, South
America or anywhere in the Pacific and be refueling or transiting the US.
London 11400 miles from Auckland
London 7620 miles from LA
London 6900 miles from Buenos Aires
All further than 5000 miles and up to the pandemic well patronised

Byker

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Mar 15, 2021, 8:41:09 PMMar 15
to
"Unum" wrote in message news:s2k77h$261$1...@dont-email.me...
AHEM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUuJRLINK1Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MW9-hGILk4Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtESyaZMl1Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqKUI_9_EJU

Depending on the cost of fuel, it's often more economical to fly a single
long nonstop flight than to have to make stops along the way (extra fuel
burn due to takeoff and climb to altitude, etc.):
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/12/08/why-ticket-prices-on-long-haul-flights-have-plummeted

Byker

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Mar 15, 2021, 8:41:28 PMMar 15
to
"George Black" wrote in message
news:E_CdnfUvPPxN_NP9...@giganews.com...

On 14/03/21 6:33 pm, Unum wrote:
>>
>> But only a tiny fraction of air travel goes 5000+ miles, right?
>
> There are many air routes of around 5000 miles
>
> Greatest distance between any two points in U.S. territory: 9,514 miles
> (15,311 km), from Point Udall, Guam, (formerly known as Orote Point)

Orote is how I remember it from my USAF tour...

Byker

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Mar 15, 2021, 8:41:38 PMMar 15
to
"Barrk" wrote in message news:ltjt4gph3t4un28a2...@4ax.com...
>
> You'd be surprised how much cargo is right under your feet
> on those flights.
>
> Actually, passengers are NOT very profitible. Dealing with
> people is expensive. Cargo doesn't bitch, cough Covid
> at you or sue. There is lots and LOTS of money in cargo.

But for cargo, ALL of America's airlines would be bankrupt by now...

Byker

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Mar 15, 2021, 8:42:07 PMMar 15
to
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message news:s2nfvn$6k5$1...@dont-email.me...
>
> DC3's were flying 21 passengers across the USA in the 1930's.

Nowadays you never hear about how they
usually reeked of vomit and disinfectant...

Byker

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Mar 15, 2021, 8:43:38 PMMar 15
to
"George Black" wrote in message
news:x4-dnVaRLJzoL9L9...@giganews.com...
>
> London 7620 miles from LA

5456 miles, actually: https://tinyurl.com/xjnfwbnk

In 1957 a TWA L-1649A "Superconnie" flew from
Los Angeles to London in 18 hours and 32 minutes...
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