Trike Wing Separation Concern
Glenn Allen
seems to fly well . I was concerned to see that it did not come with a
safety wire or
strap as backup to the hinge bolt holding the wing to the trike ( a
3/8 AN bolt - the " Jesus bolt" ) . I suppose it would be easy to make
one up .
Are there any views on this ?
I read the TrikeAircraft "incidents" web page and saw that one Sabre
incident involved wing separation.
http://www.trikeaircraft.com/indexpage.html
Does anyone else know of incidents involving trike wing separation (
Sabre
of not ) ?
I do not suppose there would be a lot of control if the bolt gave and
the safety wire held the wing on but it does give a little peace of
mind knowing something else it there just in case. I guess a BRS is
additional insurace.
Glenn Allen
Willjim
- perhaps next season - but a backup mechanism to the Jesus bolt is on
my list before I fly (along with a chute). I'll be looking at the
replies on this point.
Do you have the front suspension kit on yours? I don't and I don't
think it is worth the $330 for it - your comments if you have it.
Also, throttle - are you using a hand operated or a foot operated?
Thanks,
Jim
luc...@metrowerks.com
Glenn Allen <glenn...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
I'd be more worried about the reportedly complete loss of control in
negative G situations. This is really the only other thing that would
scare me away from trikes other than the reversed control inputs over 3-
axis (i.e., would be a concern for me since I'm so accustomed to 3-
axis)....
Any trikers out there that can enlighten me about how negative G
situations are handled in trikes?
Lucien S.
PP-ASEL.
Captain America IV.
> I recently bought a new Sabre 340 . I have about 7 hours on it and it
> seems to fly well . I was concerned to see that it did not come with a
> safety wire or
> strap as backup to the hinge bolt holding the wing to the trike ( a
> 3/8 AN bolt - the " Jesus bolt" ) . I suppose it would be easy to
make
> one up .
>
> Are there any views on this ?
>
> I read the TrikeAircraft "incidents" web page and saw that one Sabre
> incident involved wing separation.
>
> http://www.trikeaircraft.com/indexpage.html
>
> Does anyone else know of incidents involving trike wing separation (
> Sabre
> of not ) ?
>
> I do not suppose there would be a lot of control if the bolt gave and
> the safety wire held the wing on but it does give a little peace of
> mind knowing something else it there just in case. I guess a BRS is
> additional insurace.
>
> Glenn Allen
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Daniel Grunloh
>In article <37F7DE51...@sympatico.ca>,
> Glenn Allen <glenn...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>I'd be more worried about the reportedly complete loss of control in
>negative G situations. This is really the only other thing that would
>scare me away from trikes other than the reversed control inputs over
3-
>axis (i.e., would be a concern for me since I'm so accustomed to 3-
>axis)....
>
>Any trikers out there that can enlighten me about how negative G
>situations are handled in trikes?
Trikes, hang gliders, gyrocraft, and powered parachutes are not
to be intentionally flown in negative G conditions.
It doesn't seem to be much of a hardship.
--------------
Daniel Grunloh (gru...@uiuc.edu)
http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~grunloh
Rob
I've seen a video of a guy flying a Dominator Gyro in level flight going
full forward and full back on the stick. They have a special blade that
has more incidence on the tip than inboard. The combination of the
special blades and the center of mass being in the center of the craft
contribute to the great handling characteristics of this craft. I don't
know if he is getting into a full negative position in flight though.
... Rob
Stuart Parker
trikes and 3-axis, and they are so different that you don't get confused.
Sort of like the difference between riding a bike and driving a car. And if
you do start to go the wrong way, you generally 'feel' the effect in the
controls before it becomes apparent at the flying surfaces.
--
Stuart Parker ZK-JAW Edge 582 trike
luc...@metrowerks.com
"Stuart Parker" <s.pa...@clear.net.nz> wrote:
Stuart,
Well, now for the obvious question - what do trikes got that our 3-axis
planes don't got???
Just curious as to what makes 'em funner.........
8)
Lucien S.
PP-ASEL.
Captain America IV.
> Lucien- the question of control reversal is not such an issue. I
Daniel Grunloh
>In article <3cgK3.125$uN....@news.clear.net.nz>,
> "Stuart Parker" <s.pa...@clear.net.nz> wrote:
>Well, now for the obvious question - what do trikes got that our
>3-axis planes don't got???
>
>Just curious as to what makes 'em funner.........
It could be many little things together.
Open cockpit pusher with super visibility.
Terrific takeoff and climb performance.
Convenient to trailer and setup alone.
Smoother ride in turbulence.
You don't have to build it.
Very stable and easy to fly.
Stall and spin resisitant.
Excellent ground handling.
Comfortable roomy seat.
Rough field capability.
My point is that while you can get these things in a 3-axis
plane, it's hard to find one that can do them all.
But I think another reason is deeper yet. The trike "feels"
more like motorcycle than an airplane. The pilot is more
"connected" to the machine because you have a direct hold
on to the wing itself. It's a different feeling. More like
a motorcycle.
I do like them all and eventually want to fly every type, including
balloons. (Building a permanent trike hangar though.)
SEVTEC
>From: luc...@metrowerks.com
>Date: Tue, 05 October 1999 08:35 AM EDT
>Message-id: <7tcra9$qfb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>>Stuart,
>
>Well, now for the obvious question - what do trikes got that our 3-axis
>planes don't got???
>
>Just curious as to what makes 'em funner.........
>
>
>Lucien S.
>PP-ASEL.
>Captain America IV.
>
Simplicity.
Barry Palmer, for <A
HREF="http://members.aol.com/sevtec/sev/skmr.html">Sevtec</A>
J. Reid Howell
Daniel Grunloh wrote:
> >Just curious as to what makes 'em [trikes] funner.........
>
>
> It could be many little things together.
>
> Open cockpit pusher with super visibility.
> Terrific takeoff and climb performance.
> Convenient to trailer and setup alone.
> Smoother ride in turbulence.
> You don't have to build it.
> Very stable and easy to fly.
> Stall and spin resisitant.
> Excellent ground handling.
> Comfortable roomy seat.
> Rough field capability.
Sounds like your describing a 3 axis fixed wing Javelin, except for the
"pusher part". :)
I'm not sure I agree with you on the "Very stable" part though, at least
not in the same sense that a fixed wing tractor aircraft is stable. The
trike I flew (only one popular model mind you so it may be an isolated case)
was not hands off stable in the same sense that a fixed wing tractor
aircraft is, especially in turbulence. The trike had to be "flown" pretty
much all the time or else it would spiral off, though it required little
control pressure to maintain level trim flight, whereas the 3-axis fixed
wing can be "let go of" for extended periods of time.
I also found maneuvering the trike to be somewhat laborious, actually hectic
to handle in rough air, and landing a trike in gusty conditions is far from
what I would call fun so I guess I have to disagree with the "Smoother ride
in turbulence" and the "easy to fly" part as well.
I'll also have to disagree with you on the "excellent ground handling" and
the "rough field capability" part. I think trikes are quite cumbersome on
the ground, especially in windy conditions where you have to position the
wing just right or take off like a sail boat. I also don't like the
backwards steering of the nosewheel and the short coupled wheel base of a
trike and I wouldn't think of trying to set one down in the same plowed
fields that I'll take my conventional tractor engined taildragger!
Geez Dan now look what you made me do.
Are trikes fun? Sure they are and like all flying machines they have there
pros and cons. Are trikes funner than fixed wing? That's for you to
decide.
Like I said in another post, six of one half dozen of the other.
--
J. Reid Howell
cape...@flash.net
www.capellakitplanes.com
Daniel Grunloh
"J. Reid Howell" <cape...@flash.net> wrote:
>Daniel Grunloh wrote:
>
>> >Just curious as to what makes 'em [trikes] funner.........
>>
>>
>> It could be many little things together.
>>
>> Open cockpit pusher with super visibility.
>> Terrific takeoff and climb performance.
>> Convenient to trailer and setup alone.
>> Smoother ride in turbulence.
>> You don't have to build it.
>> Very stable and easy to fly.
>> Stall and spin resisitant.
>> Excellent ground handling.
>> Comfortable roomy seat.
>> Rough field capability.
>
>Sounds like your describing a 3 axis fixed wing Javelin, except for
>the "pusher part". :)
>
>I'm not sure I agree with you on the "Very stable" part though, at
>least not in the same sense that a fixed wing tractor aircraft is
>stable.
It depends on the wing. I have flown for miles hands off in mild
conditions. I believe all trikes however are MORE stable in the
pitch mode than most fixed wings, except maybe the Eagle XL.
>I also found maneuvering the trike to be somewhat laborious, actually
>hectic to handle in rough air, and landing a trike in gusty
>conditions is far from what I would call fun so I guess I have to
>disagree with the "Smoother ride in turbulence" and the "easy to fly"
>part as well.
The smoother ride in turbulence is well accepted by those who
have experience in both. It is due to the swivel connection
between the trike and wing. It really does work and it also
helps very much during the actual touchdown.
Landing anything in turbulence can be exciting, but I have to admit
to a perverse thrill that comes from doing it well. I actually
like it, up until the point where the aircraft is damaged. I *DO*
call it fun, and often go back up for another.
Flying a trike in turbulence is different than a fixed wing
in that it takes a different skill which does not develop
until you have 10-20 hours. A student has terrible time
and a rough ride while the experienced pilot cruises right
along with very little effort. Trust me. They are easy to
fly once you learn how.
>on the "excellent ground handling" and the "rough field capability"
>part. I think trikes are quite cumbersome on the ground, especially
>in windy conditions
Quite the contrary. Your Javelin is unique in that it is a tail
dragger with no fuselage. Some tail draggers will weather vane
into the crosswind while the tailless trike just taxis right along.
Also many tricycle gear airplanes have small wheels and wouldn't think
of landing anylace but a prepared airstrip. The venerable Quicksilver
even probably has only 4 inches of ground clearance. Most trikes
have wheels larger than you will see on ANY fixed wing and they
have excellent shocks and good ground clearance. I have landed my
trike on rough plowed fields and on roads where I would never land
my old fixed wing tail dragger. Trikes were designed, and have
evolved for off field flying.
Also in the ground handling I was thinking about the trikes ability
to raise or lower a wing to taxi in tight places and it's typical
very tight turning radius. As an old tail dragger pilot I am
delighted how easy the trike is to manage on the ground. Hell
maybe it's just the tricycle gear.
>Are trikes fun? Sure they are and like all flying machines they have
>there pros and cons. Are trikes funner than fixed wing? That's for
>you to decide.
I agree we shouldn't compare apples and oranges. All flying machines
are fun. Some are more fun at certain things. I don't enjoy my trike
nearly as much when it's 25 degrees outside or when I have to fly for
an hour or two in a straight line.
Daniel Grunloh
Pete <ul...@omcs.com.au> wrote:
>Almost all Trikers are limited to fly early mornings for still air.
>By mid morning you won't see any Trikes in the sky but will see heaps
>of 3axis.
Brian Milton, who flew his trike all the way around the world,
surely did not limit himself to flying in still air.
Mark Smith
>
> On Tue, 05 Oct 99 22:05:24 GMT, gru...@uiuc.edu (Daniel Grunloh)
> wrote:
>
> >In article <37FA6C...@omcs.com.au>,
> > Pete <ul...@omcs.com.au> wrote:
> >
> >>Almost all Trikers are limited to fly early mornings for still air.
> >>By mid morning you won't see any Trikes in the sky but will see heaps
> >>of 3axis.
> >
> >Brian Milton, who flew his trike all the way around the world,
> >surely did not limit himself to flying in still air.
> >
>
> seem to be the machine of choice for long distance ultralight flights.
Since you asked, my guess is they are trying to prove something,,,
like mc cornack did with the pteradactyl, and the thunder gull, and
the,,,many years ago, almost before there were trikes !!
--
Mark Smith mailto:tri...@trikite.com
Tri-State Kite Sales
1121 N Locust St
Mt Vernon, IN 47620 http://www.trikite.com
RMW
Pete wrote:
> I guess there are a number of exceptions to this...however I have seen
> the majority of trikers and I mean 99percent of trikers fly early
> mornings. Milton was flying at a height I would guess that gound thermal
> would not effect him....most trikers sit around 1thousand feet and a few
> venture to 2000 ft plus.
>
Lots of exceptions. Around here (NC) 3 axis planes fly morning and evening
locally while trikers fly all times and do most of the cross country flying.
> Milton was out there to set a record....what has this got to do with
> him limiting himself in still air.
>
> You stated that you don't 'enjoy flying' when its 25 degrees meaning
> that you too fly early mornings before it becomes to warm by mid morning
> to fly. I too Daniel have flown the Trike early monings to get the nice
> smooth easy manourveable air. A lot more fun as you don't have to work
> so hard when it gets warmer.
>
I'll let Daniel speak for himself, but I to can appreciate the enclosed or
partially enclosed cockpits of some 3 axis planes when it's 25 degrees.
> Go to flyins Daniel and have a look at all the Trikes sitting around
> during mid morning becos they don't enjoy flying in warm air as well,
> and see how many 3axis are taking off.
> Why becos it is a hell of a lot easy to handle with the stick.. When
> flying in these conditions it brings a smile to my face in the 3axis as
> it is so much easier to handle.
Fly ins I've been to usually have a mix midday. It has more to do with the
attitude of the pilots than they craft they're flying.
> To me, Trikes are for short distances in calm conditions..flying them
> for long distances and after early morning becomes very tiring and it
> takes all the fun out of it.
The only ultralighter from our area to fly to S-N-F this year was a triker
(hi Henry).
>
>
> I enjoy flying Trikes in good conditions which limit them.. there are
> now 3axis U/Ls that also give the same thrill as trikes with a broader
> range and safer in some areas I have previously mentioned re tumbling
> etc.
>
> Cheers Peter
>
Peter, I own and fly both 3 axis and trikes. Some of each are restricted by
handling, speed, etc. I enjoy each for different reasons (mostly aesthetic).
The best advice to anyone is to try them both and fly what you like best. Or
if you're like me, fly both.Regards,
RMW
"Every thing in this book may be wrong."
>
>
>
> Daniel Grunloh wrote:
> >
> > In article <37FA6C...@omcs.com.au>,
> > Pete <ul...@omcs.com.au> wrote:
> >
> > >Almost all Trikers are limited to fly early mornings for still air.
> > >By mid morning you won't see any Trikes in the sky but will see heaps
> > >of 3axis.
> >
> > Brian Milton, who flew his trike all the way around the world,
> > surely did not limit himself to flying in still air.
> >
Pete
Less moving parts to check thus more to fail
However a lot of 3axis ultralights have the same list as well..
Open cockpit with great visibility
Outstanding take off & climb using the Rotax 582 on both..no difference
Folding wings for trailing and some quicker to set up.
Many are certified and no building required.
Extremely stable with hands off.
Many are very hard to stall and spin.
Unlike a trike you have a rudder to get you out of trouble.
Unlike a trike it will not tumble which will kill you.
Has roomy side by side seating where you can converse and show things to
your passenger and give them a hands on feel.
Has rough field landing.
Easier to go quicker with both having the same envelope..3axis you open
up the throttle and trim, with Trikes you open up the throttle and HOLD
the bar in...very tiring after a few minutes.
When flying in turbulence you WISH you were back in a 3axis.. one
hundred times easier as you move the control stick slightly around for
correction. In a Trike after a while you get tired off dragging
the bar back as the wing drops/dips..Ok if you want to give your
shoulders a workout.
Some turbulence there is less work as you let the bar handle it
and you don't grip it like death.
Almost all Trikers are limited to fly early mornings for still air.
By mid morning you won't see any Trikes in the sky but will see heaps of
3axis.
I have flown the Skyboy, Xair, flightstar and NZ Bantam..all side by
side two seaters.
I have owned a Pegaus Quantum Trike 582 for 4 years.
I too used to think being a GA pilot that ultralights were unsafe.
However over the years they have been made stronger and safer.
Yes flying a trike has given me hours of fun, low flying along the beach
throwing the wing around the dunes etc.
I thought that 3axis could not do this for you... so in the last 9months
I tried out the above list of 3axis and they too can also give you that
exuberance..some a bit more than others.
The Bantam b200 is my favourite as you get the same thrills as a Trike
with many advantages.
If you could afford it...buy both.
Cheers Peter.
Daniel Grunloh wrote:
>
> In article <7tcra9$qfb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, luc...@metrowerks.com wrote:
> >In article <3cgK3.125$uN....@news.clear.net.nz>,
> > "Stuart Parker" <s.pa...@clear.net.nz> wrote:
>
> >Well, now for the obvious question - what do trikes got that our
> >3-axis planes don't got???
> >
> >Just curious as to what makes 'em funner.........
>
> It could be many little things together.
>
> Open cockpit pusher with super visibility.
> Terrific takeoff and climb performance.
> Convenient to trailer and setup alone.
> Smoother ride in turbulence.
> You don't have to build it.
> Very stable and easy to fly.
> Stall and spin resisitant.
> Excellent ground handling.
> Comfortable roomy seat.
> Rough field capability.
>
> My point is that while you can get these things in a 3-axis
> plane, it's hard to find one that can do them all.
>
> But I think another reason is deeper yet. The trike "feels"
> more like motorcycle than an airplane. The pilot is more
> "connected" to the machine because you have a direct hold
> on to the wing itself. It's a different feeling. More like
> a motorcycle.
>
> I do like them all and eventually want to fly every type, including
> balloons. (Building a permanent trike hangar though.)
>
Pete
the majority of trikers and I mean 99percent of trikers fly early
mornings. Milton was flying at a height I would guess that gound thermal
would not effect him....most trikers sit around 1thousand feet and a few
venture to 2000 ft plus.
Milton was out there to set a record....what has this got to do with
him limiting himself in still air.
You stated that you don't 'enjoy flying' when its 25 degrees meaning
that you too fly early mornings before it becomes to warm by mid morning
to fly. I too Daniel have flown the Trike early monings to get the nice
smooth easy manourveable air. A lot more fun as you don't have to work
so hard when it gets warmer.
Go to flyins Daniel and have a look at all the Trikes sitting around
during mid morning becos they don't enjoy flying in warm air as well,
and see how many 3axis are taking off.
Why becos it is a hell of a lot easy to handle with the stick.. When
flying in these conditions it brings a smile to my face in the 3axis as
it is so much easier to handle.
To me, Trikes are for short distances in calm conditions..flying them
for long distances and after early morning becomes very tiring and it
takes all the fun out of it.
I enjoy flying Trikes in good conditions which limit them.. there are
now 3axis U/Ls that also give the same thrill as trikes with a broader
range and safer in some areas I have previously mentioned re tumbling
etc.
Cheers Peter
Daniel Grunloh wrote:
>
> In article <37FA6C...@omcs.com.au>,
> Pete <ul...@omcs.com.au> wrote:
>
> >Almost all Trikers are limited to fly early mornings for still air.
> >By mid morning you won't see any Trikes in the sky but will see heaps
> >of 3axis.
>
> Brian Milton, who flew his trike all the way around the world,
> surely did not limit himself to flying in still air.
>
Daniel Grunloh
>I guess there are a number of exceptions to this...however I have seen
>the majority of trikers and I mean 99percent of trikers fly early
>mornings. Milton was flying at a height I would guess that gound thermal
>would not effect him
Clearly you have not read very much about his flight.
>Milton was out there to set a record....what has this got to do with
>him limiting himself in still air.
I don't undwerstand your question. Numerous trikes have flown long
distance in bad conditions. London to Sidney, Cape to Cape etc.
They are not limited to still air and calm mornings. It's not
a reasonable assertion.
>You stated that you don't 'enjoy flying' when its 25 degrees meaning
>that you too fly early mornings before it becomes to warm by mid morning
>to fly.
No I was referring to flying in winter. Again I think you might have
mis-stated your argument. I fly anytime of the day when the wind
is under 15-18 mph and not horribly bumpy. Mostly late afternoon
after I get off work. Have 95 hours logged to date.
>Go to flyins Daniel and have a look at all the Trikes sitting around
>during mid morning becos they don't enjoy flying in warm air as well,
>and see how many 3axis are taking off.
I haven't seen that trait here in the USA. The trikes at Oshkosh
and Sun N Fun flew in plenty wild conditions. Sure they have limits
but it is not a problem for most of the flyers. Where are you from?
>To me, Trikes are for short distances in calm conditions..flying them
>for long distances and after early morning becomes very tiring and it
>takes all the fun out of it.
What kind of trike did you fly? Some handle turbulence much better
than others. My FunRacer is more sensitive than most but I fly
routinely with Phantoms, Quicksilvers, Kolbs etc. They think my
plane is strange but a little wind and turbulence is not a big problem
even for me. Last year I flew a bomb drop and deadstick contest
in the middle of the afternoon when many fixed wing pilots decided to
stay on the ground. Pilot preference and experience plays a bigger
role than the type of plane.
Can 3-axis planes handle extreme turbulence better than trikes?
SURE, MANY of them can..... if that's what you need to do.
Daniel Grunloh
>Daniel Grunloh wrote:
>
>> >Just curious as to what makes 'em [trikes] funner.........
>>
>>
>> It could be many little things together.
I'm sorry I said trikes were more fun. Obviously that's
and arrogant statement. Each person has his own definition
of fun. I'm surprised there isn't a powered parachute pilot
here claiming that his craft is the most fun..... when flown
in the conditions for which it's designed.
I don't intend to crtitcize 3-axis, and they need no defense.
They have been well proven by nearly 100 years of use. Everyone
understands how they work and should be flown.
Trikes, powered parachutes, and gyrocraft are not 3-axis, but
they are not just passing fads. None will ever replace 3-axis
but they aren't going to go away either. In fact there are new
developments already on the horizon with chutes and with trikes
which will result in new generations of both types.
With more variety, each person can find the type of craft which
is the most fun for them.
Daniel Grunloh
gru...@uiuc.edu (Daniel Grunloh) wrote:
>>To me, Trikes are for short distances in calm conditions..flying them
>>for long distances and after early morning becomes very tiring and it
>>takes all the fun out of it.
>
>What kind of trike did you fly? Some handle turbulence much better
>than others.
Very sorry I forgot about this passage in an earlier message.
>>I have flown the Skyboy, Xair, flightstar and NZ Bantam..all side by
>>side two seaters.
>>I have owned a Pegaus Quantum Trike 582 for 4 years.
That certainly is a fine trike and should handle the weather
as well as any. I can agree that turbulence on long flights
is tiring. I don't like long flights in bad turbulence period,
so that is not a problem for me. I only enjoy flying when
it's reasonable anyway. Maybe someday I will need that but
I can't see it at this stage of my life.
P.S. You should try flying a single seater someday.
Pete
>
> In article <37FA9F...@omcs.com.au>, Pete <ul...@omcs.com.au> wrote:
> >I guess there are a number of exceptions to this...however I have seen
> >the majority of trikers and I mean 99percent of trikers fly early
> >mornings. Milton was flying at a height I would guess that gound thermal
> >would not effect him
>
> Clearly you have not read very much about his flight.
>
> >Milton was out there to set a record....what has this got to do with
> >him limiting himself in still air.
>
> I don't undwerstand your question. Numerous trikes have flown long
> distance in bad conditions. London to Sidney, Cape to Cape etc.
> They are not limited to still air and calm mornings. It's not
> a reasonable assertion.
>
that 99percent of trikers fly early mornings with " Milton etc"
Milton was out there to prove something like many other Trikers.
Why mention him.....If you said where I fly from 2 out of every 10
trikers fly late mornings when its warm or gusty I would be impressed.
In Australia they have several 2 to 5 day triking trips each year with a
large number of trikers going along for the ride and experience.
They experience turbulent conditions and survive...doing it in a group
is one thing on the odd occasion, but to set out on your own or with a
mate
is not very pleasureable. You either miss flying on those days or fly
early mornings.
I had the pleasure of meeting those Three 'Poms' English trikers. ozzy
term of endearment that came out here to Oz bringing three Quantums.
They did what we have not done...fly coastal around Australia in their
Trikes.
Myself and two other trikers were returning from a long flight that
morning and had heard them on the Radio..we landed on the beach of one
of the Islands and waited a short time for their arrival..it was their
First landing on a Beach. In Queenslad it has high humidity and it gets
quite bumpy... When they took off, us three knew that within 10minutes
they were going to get some heavy turbs. flying over the 1000ft sand
hills etc.
A few words were muttered on the Radio later on. Those guys flew in some
bad conditions for several weeks in remote areas with very hot weather.
They had an adventure for a worthy cause which was published on the WEb
everyday with photos..my quantum and my mates quasar was taken on the
beach by these guys and added.
Again I will repeat that 99percent of Trikers do not fly other than
early mornings or late afternoons.
> >You stated that you don't 'enjoy flying' when its 25 degrees meaning
> >that you too fly early mornings before it becomes to warm by mid morning
> >to fly.
>
> No I was referring to flying in winter. Again I think you might have
> mis-stated your argument. I fly anytime of the day when the wind
> is under 15-18 mph and not horribly bumpy. Mostly late afternoon
> after I get off work. Have 95 hours logged to date.
>
When you said that you don't enjoy flying over 25 degrees I did not
think that whether it be winter or summer made much difference.
I agree that when the wind gets up over 15 knots (about 30kmph) I don't
enjoy it in the Trike or after about 10am when the overnight temp starts
at 20c and picks up early from 9am. tis too bumpy and not enjoyable
to fly in. We agree on that.
However flying 3axis changes that..I fly higher, much much easier to
control in turbulence. Lately I have been flying the 3axis in turbulence
and I have had a big grin... I would not have done this in the Trike.
> >Go to flyins Daniel and have a look at all the Trikes sitting around
> >during mid morning becos they don't enjoy flying in warm air as well,
> >and see how many 3axis are taking off.
>
> I haven't seen that trait here in the USA. The trikes at Oshkosh
> and Sun N Fun flew in plenty wild conditions. Sure they have limits
> but it is not a problem for most of the flyers. Where are you from?
>
From the stories I read about that... only a few were flying in those
conditions..they were CFIs promoting their flying school, manufacturers
promoting their Trikes etc.
We even had our Airborne Reps. there, showing the Americans how to fly a
Trike..
'Smiley here' :-p (tongue in cheek) >:-} Evil grin.
They were showing off the New Airborne 'Streak wing'..great pilots
showing how you fly and land in those conditions. You see the Ozzy
Pilots are the best Trikers around as we have to fly in high mountains,
coastal changes, high temps and high humidity.
That new Streak wing is one of the best Trike wings in the World.
Fast..you have to be quick to keep it in sight. Pushes though turbulence
as though it wasn't there..attach it to the new Edge Trike, built for
strength and ozzy conditions.
> >To me, Trikes are for short distances in calm conditions..flying them
> >for long distances and after early morning becomes very tiring and it
> >takes all the fun out of it.
>
> What kind of trike did you fly? Some handle turbulence much better
> than others. My FunRacer is more sensitive than most but I fly
> routinely with Phantoms, Quicksilvers, Kolbs etc. They think my
> plane is strange but a little wind and turbulence is not a big problem
> even for me. Last year I flew a bomb drop and deadstick contest
> in the middle of the afternoon when many fixed wing pilots decided to
> stay on the ground. Pilot preference and experience plays a bigger
> role than the type of plane.
>
Yes I do agree with that...it took me about 50 hours to 'really' fly
the Trike...then I could do anything with it...my biggest thrill is to
go out 'wave surfing' beween the sea swells. I don't take passengers
when I do this..just in case. Timing and bar control is critical when
waves are about one foot under you.
I have about 400hours now.
> Can 3-axis planes handle extreme turbulence better than trikes?
>
> SURE, MANY of them can..... if that's what you need to do.
>
Well I wouldn't go out in 'extreme' turbulence, in either.
Nice chatting with you... away from the 'List'
Cheers Peter ( 3 yrs on the Trike list)
Pete
types as MM has stated some time back.
Your point is absolutely correct, doesn't matter what we fly as long we
enjoy it.
Cheers Peter
Pete
>
> In article <7tedq2$p34$1...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> gru...@uiuc.edu (Daniel Grunloh) wrote:
>
> >>for long distances and after early morning becomes very tiring and it
> >>takes all the fun out of it.
> >
> >What kind of trike did you fly? Some handle turbulence much better
> >than others.
>
>
> >>I have flown the Skyboy, Xair, flightstar and NZ Bantam..all side by
> >>side two seaters.
> >>I have owned a Pegaus Quantum Trike 582 for 4 years.
>
> That certainly is a fine trike and should handle the weather
> as well as any. I can agree that turbulence on long flights
> is tiring. I don't like long flights in bad turbulence period,
> so that is not a problem for me. I only enjoy flying when
> it's reasonable anyway. Maybe someday I will need that but
> I can't see it at this stage of my life.
>
> P.S. You should try flying a single seater someday.
>
I have never flown a single seater either in GA, trikes or 3axis U/ls.
I enjoy taking passengers up with me to talk to and show them the
sites..I would end up talking to myself if I was in a single seater..we
all know where that would lead.
Cheers Peter
Pete
>
> Pete wrote:
>
> > I guess there are a number of exceptions to this...however I have seen
> > the majority of trikers and I mean 99percent of trikers fly early
> > mornings. Milton was flying at a height I would guess that gound thermal
> > venture to 2000 ft plus.
> >
>
> locally while trikers fly all times and do most of the cross country flying.
>
where that is. I will have a slice of humble pie tonite.
> > Milton was out there to set a record....what has this got to do with
> > him limiting himself in still air.
> >
> > You stated that you don't 'enjoy flying' when its 25 degrees meaning
> > that you too fly early mornings before it becomes to warm by mid morning
> > to fly. I too Daniel have flown the Trike early monings to get the nice
> > smooth easy manourveable air. A lot more fun as you don't have to work
> > so hard when it gets warmer.
> >
>
> I'll let Daniel speak for himself, but I to can appreciate the enclosed or
> partially enclosed cockpits of some 3 axis planes when it's 25 degrees.
>
> > Go to flyins Daniel and have a look at all the Trikes sitting around
> > during mid morning becos they don't enjoy flying in warm air as well,
> > and see how many 3axis are taking off.
> > Why becos it is a hell of a lot easy to handle with the stick.. When
> > flying in these conditions it brings a smile to my face in the 3axis as
> > it is so much easier to handle.
>
> Fly ins I've been to usually have a mix midday. It has more to do with the
> attitude of the pilots than they craft they're flying.
>
I agree with that, to me its the attitude and experience of the Pilot.
Here in Oz I only see 3axis flying after mid. morning.
> > To me, Trikes are for short distances in calm conditions..flying them
> > for long distances and after early morning becomes very tiring and it
> > takes all the fun out of it.
>
> The only ultralighter from our area to fly to S-N-F this year was a triker
> (hi Henry).
>
> >
> >
> > I enjoy flying Trikes in good conditions which limit them.. there are
> > now 3axis U/Ls that also give the same thrill as trikes with a broader
> > range and safer in some areas I have previously mentioned re tumbling
> > etc.
> >
> > Cheers Peter
> >
>
> Peter, I own and fly both 3 axis and trikes. Some of each are restricted by
> handling, speed, etc. I enjoy each for different reasons (mostly aesthetic).
> The best advice to anyone is to try them both and fly what you like best. Or
> if you're like me, fly both.Regards,
> RMW
> "Every thing in this book may be wrong."
>
> >Well we both have a bit in common with GA, trikes and 3axis,
I too enjoy all three for different reasons, either for speed,
low and slow flying, endurance or for showing off.
I fly both and like everthing, you have to try it before you buy it.
Try telling that to your wife......
> >
Cheers Peter
> >
> > Daniel Grunloh wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <37FA6C...@omcs.com.au>,
> > > Pete <ul...@omcs.com.au> wrote:
> > >
> > > >Almost all Trikers are limited to fly early mornings for still air.
> > > >By mid morning you won't see any Trikes in the sky but will see heaps
> > > >of 3axis.
> > >
> > > Brian Milton, who flew his trike all the way around the world,
> > > surely did not limit himself to flying in still air.
> > >
Stuart Parker
You don't really have to ask, do you???!!!
Trikes- the dirt bikes of the air; over the sand hills (dunes to you
guys), cliffs and along the beach; circling with the seagulls; bugs in your
teeth from too much grinning; breeze in your face; take your mates for a
spin (we are allowed 2 seaters over here); freezing to death at 9500 feet
/ -15C over Mt Ruapehu and loving every minute of it;.......need I go on?
3-axis- point em and go places (though I did a 4.5 + 4 hour there and back
to a fly-in in my trike last weekend); warmer, more comfortable/less
physical in turbulence; passengers feel safer; good for a session of
'precision flying' and remembering what God invented feet for.
Horses for courses, though I do favour trikes for my flying style.
Pete
I see that you fly the good old Edge Trike from over
the road...have you seen the report on the New Streak wing. That also
gets up and goes, 55knots in trim hands free and 80 pulled in.
Yeah, flying the Trike over the dunes with several other trikers is a
buzz. But theres more...advert....
Have you seen or ridden in your own NZ Bantam b22 2seater 3axis U/l.
That too flies like a trike, with a 582 it takes off in 20feet, and you
can throw it around like a Trike.. The controls are spot on and precise
for fast tight turns. Also lands on the beach in short distance and wait
for it there's more...it handles more like a GA plane than an ultralight
re its handling response.
Ok..if you ever get a chance to get a ride in one..take it, you will be
more than surprised. I hear they have about 300 of them flying around
NZ.
Cheers Peter
Clippertrike
question of feeling.
For who wants to put in the balance all the pro and cons of both trike
and 3-axis, there is an other aspect to consider: "the time spend for
maintenance and repair vs. the time spend in the air"
and from my experience in my UL club it's with no doubt in the
advantage of trikes.
But fo me UL flying is a hobby I'm just looking for some fun. And if I
had to consider all the pro and cons I would probably never get in UL.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Daniel Grunloh
Pete <ul...@omcs.com.au> wrote:
>Daniel Grunloh wrote:
>Again I will repeat that 99percent of Trikers do not fly other than
>early mornings or late afternoons.
Thanks very much really Peter for the detailed response. We might
agree if you had picked a number lower than 99%. I'm sorry you
got me going when you also said they were limited to calm
conditions and still air. Sorry I didn't understand what you
were really saying.
Air Triker
>seems to fly well . I was concerned to see that it did not come with a
>safety wire or
>strap as backup to the hinge bolt holding the wing to the trike ( a
>3/8 AN bolt - the " Jesus bolt" ) . I suppose it would be easy to make
>one up .
>
>Are there any views on this ?
>
>I read the TrikeAircraft "incidents" web page and saw that one Sabre
>incident involved wing separation.
>
>http://www.trikeaircraft.com/indexpage.html
>
>Does anyone else know of incidents involving trike wing separation (
>Sabre
>of not ) ?
>
>I do not suppose there would be a lot of control if the bolt gave and
>the safety wire held the wing on but it does give a little peace of
>mind knowing something else it there just in case. I guess a BRS is
>additional insurace.
>
>Glenn Allen
Glenn;
I have a Sabre/340 liquid with a BRS and I'm thinking of adding a cable to
mine. As far as the "hang bolt" go's I've never heard of one having a failure
and as long as you secure it with a safety clip wire, you should'nt have any
problems. Wing failure is another story, you could experience a very serious
situation if you push it beyond its flight envelope. I think the incident you
are probably referring to was of a wing being flown past its speed range and
coming apart. I have heard of a Cosmos wing breaking up shortly after take off,
but I think it was due to a manufactures defect.
Your probably aware that some trikes have a safety cable attached from the mast
on one side and running over the keel tube & around the cross bar to the other
side of the mast. It tends to help keep the wing from completely folding if the
tentioning cables release. Also, in case of seperation of wing from trike the
cable might help to keep you hangin on. Add a BRS & you should have some peace
of mind.
In response to some of the other comments about trikes, lets face it, trikes
are different from three axis aircraft, thats what makes them enjoyable in
their own right. When flown by an experienced pilot, they are capable of flying
in thermal conditions (calm air is ideal for total enjoyment) and for
turbulance, the faster the wing, the smoother the ride. Some of the advantages
I see are; its short field take off & landing ability, interchangable wings
and easier to fly due to one less axis to worry about.
This debate about which type flies better, weightshift or three axis will
probably go on till the end of time but the truth is, we all have a preference
in what we want to fly and that preference tends to be a little bias, so fly
what you enjoy and appreciate how far ultralight aviation has come and hope
that it remains accessible to all, that is what really matters!
Harry
Stuart Parker
another 5 on my Edge wing. Worth a look. Any compromise on low speed/short
field performance? Compatible with the Edge trike?
Yep, the club plane is a Bantam B22. Real nice. The factory is just 20
minutes flying from my strip, and its knee deep B22 country round here.
Apart from my Edge and a couple of students I have on homebuilt single seat
trikes, this part of the country is strictly 3-axis! sob, sob....
Daniel Grunloh
airt...@aol.comwhodare (Air Triker) wrote:
>In response to some of the other comments about trikes, lets face it, trikes
>are different from three axis aircraft, thats what makes them enjoyable in
>their own right. When flown by an experienced pilot, they are capable of
Thanks Air Triker for your post. We chose our toys for many different
reasons and your point above hits right home for me. I decided to fly
a trike in part because it was something new and because they ARE
different. Here in the US, ultralights are _supposed_ to be different
than airplanes for regulatory reasons. I like to do a lot of low level
flying and off field landing. It's better my craft doesn't look like
an airplane when I land next to the golf course or out in a farm field.
Otherwise someone will call 911 and say an "airplane" just crashed.
Everyone knows how dangerous "they" are. :-)
>This debate about which type flies better, weightshift or three axis will
>probably go on till the end of time but the truth is, we all have a
"Better" is a bad word in this context. I'm sure we can never expect
to see military combat aircraft in the trike configuration.
Strike that. I guess the Czechs use (or tested) the Apex trike
for use by their military.
--- Dan, not expecting any weightshift airliners soon.
Daniel Grunloh
gru...@uiuc.edu (Daniel Grunloh) wrote:
>--- Dan, not expecting any weightshift airliners soon.
Hello this is your captain speaking. We hope you are enjoying
your flight on Swing-Wing Airlines. At this time we are about
to begin our approach to land. Will everyone please return
your trays to the upright position and then lean sharply to
the left.
Pete
announce that due to our new 'Streak wing' that we have arrived one hour
earlier and that our flight was turbulent free.
Hope you have enjoyed flying with us...
Cheers Peter
Pete
>
> No haven't heard about the New Streak. hmmm....55 knots cruise- thats
> another 5 on my Edge wing. Worth a look. Any compromise on low speed/short
> field performance? Compatible with the Edge trike?
>
Wing..all for the old trike or the new EdgeX trike.
I had a look at the 'Airborne Edge web' site and they have not updated
it as yet...I emailed them and they stated that they have been so busy
building the Streak wing.
I do not know if you subscribe to Aust. Pacific flyer mag. at
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~aerial/pacult.htm
as they have a 'Flight test large article' on the Airborne Streak Wing.
Cost is $6,950.00 Oz. from Airborne Wind sports.
The streak fits on the Edge Trike whether it be the old or new model
EdgeX trike. The Streak has more battens and takes less time to erect.
IT handles turbulence a lot better than the edge Wing.
It has three attachment points not two.
So you can set it to fly fast on front hole, med. in centre or slower in
the back hole. You also have the inflight trimmer to also alow you to
fly at fast setting to slow setting all in trim with hands free in
either hole.
VNE is 81knots (150)kph
Max level speed is 80kts (148kph)
Stall speed at 'MTOW' is 30knots slower than the Edge Wing I believe.
Snippet from the article reads...on the second hole with flight trimmer
set on fast I was hands free at 60knots. I then trimmed back and speed
dropped to 50knots and in slow pos. back to 45knots.
Imagine if he had tried this on the front hole with trimmer set to fast
speed.
You can also get more out of it as well by pulling the bar in from fast
pos.and you will hit 80knots.
This wing will fly slow to very fast..abroad range of speed, with no
increase of stall speed in MTOW.
As you can see ..Airborne Wind sports has now got one of the best rugged
Trikes around, EdgeX coupled with either the Wizard Wing or The Streak
wing. No flies on this mob. The Trike is made for rough terrain to
beach landings..Wide wheels robust frame with good looks.
What more could you ask for...
FRom this and its handling and glowing article re Flight Test it is one
fast machine.
> Yep, the club plane is a Bantam B22. Real nice. The factory is just 20
> minutes flying from my strip, and its knee deep B22 country round here.
> Apart from my Edge and a couple of students I have on homebuilt single seat
> trikes, this part of the country is strictly 3-axis! sob, sob....
>
> --Stuart try getting a joy flight in the Bantam.
Its the only Ultralight that I have been in that flies like a Trike,
low and fast around the sand dunes, takes off in 20feet, positive feed
back with the stick, no waiting..as a certified plane it flies like a GA
plane. I love the Trikes for this and This 3axis also gives me the same
thrills of being abnle to throw the wing around.
Get the Instructor to give you a demo of what it can do.
As you are around the corner from the factory,' borrow their Video' of
it.
It shows you its paces and low flying manourveablity it can do. It has a
airlines captain from Uk fling it in Nz. He certailnly shows what it can
do. He and another airlines pilot bought several to take back to UK for
fun flying for themselves. They believe its the best 3axis UL around for
fast handling etc. I myself did not think that there was an 3axis UL
that could give the same thrills as the Trike, but it does. Its a Big
Boys Toy.
If you get the Streak wing , you will be able to fly with the Bantams
and not be left behind.
Cheers Peter
Don
I fly an Edge 503 trike and have many friends who fly in exceptionally
thermally conditions of an Australian summer. Many of our club members
undertake day long trips and I can assure you an Oz summer can provide some
very interesting weather. Issue of turbulence and handling being "more
difficult" than three axis are like many statements not particularly
objective.
In my view its horses for courses but I wouldn't trade my trike for
anything.
regards
Don
Pete wrote in message <37FA6C...@omcs.com.au>...
>I concur with Daniel with his list and also would add.
>
>Less moving parts to check thus more to fail
>
>However a lot of 3axis ultralights have the same list as well..
>
>Open cockpit with great visibility
>Outstanding take off & climb using the Rotax 582 on both..no difference
>Folding wings for trailing and some quicker to set up.
>Many are certified and no building required.
>Extremely stable with hands off.
>Many are very hard to stall and spin.
>Unlike a trike you have a rudder to get you out of trouble.
>Unlike a trike it will not tumble which will kill you.
>Has roomy side by side seating where you can converse and show things to
>your passenger and give them a hands on feel.
>Has rough field landing.
>Easier to go quicker with both having the same envelope..3axis you open
>up the throttle and trim, with Trikes you open up the throttle and HOLD
>the bar in...very tiring after a few minutes.
>When flying in turbulence you WISH you were back in a 3axis.. one
>hundred times easier as you move the control stick slightly around for
>correction. In a Trike after a while you get tired off dragging
>the bar back as the wing drops/dips..Ok if you want to give your
>shoulders a workout.
>Some turbulence there is less work as you let the bar handle it
>and you don't grip it like death.
>Almost all Trikers are limited to fly early mornings for still air.
>By mid morning you won't see any Trikes in the sky but will see heaps of
>3axis.
>
>
>
>I have flown the Skyboy, Xair, flightstar and NZ Bantam..all side by
>side two seaters.
>I have owned a Pegaus Quantum Trike 582 for 4 years.
>
>I too used to think being a GA pilot that ultralights were unsafe.
>However over the years they have been made stronger and safer.
>
>Yes flying a trike has given me hours of fun, low flying along the beach
>throwing the wing around the dunes etc.
>I thought that 3axis could not do this for you... so in the last 9months
>I tried out the above list of 3axis and they too can also give you that
>exuberance..some a bit more than others.
>The Bantam b200 is my favourite as you get the same thrills as a Trike
>with many advantages.
>
>If you could afford it...buy both.
>
>Cheers Peter.
>
>
>Daniel Grunloh wrote:
>>
>> In article <7tcra9$qfb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, luc...@metrowerks.com wrote:
>> >In article <3cgK3.125$uN....@news.clear.net.nz>,
>> > "Stuart Parker" <s.pa...@clear.net.nz> wrote:
>>
>> >Well, now for the obvious question - what do trikes got that our
>> >3-axis planes don't got???
>> >
>> >Just curious as to what makes 'em funner.........
>>
>> It could be many little things together.
>>
>> Open cockpit pusher with super visibility.
>> Terrific takeoff and climb performance.
>> Convenient to trailer and setup alone.
>> Smoother ride in turbulence.
>> You don't have to build it.
>> Very stable and easy to fly.
>> Stall and spin resisitant.
>> Excellent ground handling.
>> Comfortable roomy seat.
>> Rough field capability.
>>
>> My point is that while you can get these things in a 3-axis
>> plane, it's hard to find one that can do them all.
>>
>> But I think another reason is deeper yet. The trike "feels"
>> more like motorcycle than an airplane. The pilot is more
>> "connected" to the machine because you have a direct hold
>> on to the wing itself. It's a different feeling. More like
>> a motorcycle.
>>
>> I do like them all and eventually want to fly every type, including
>> balloons. (Building a permanent trike hangar though.)
>>
Stuart Parker
Sorry, didn't make myself clear- Yes, I also fly/instruct on the B22. It
is a sweet little machine. As for speed, we generally cruise around at 50
knots here, so on a club trip my trike can still mix it with the Bantams.
But it they choose to drop the nose and hit the throttle they sort of
disappear into the hazy blue ahead pretty quick!
Yes, must chase up on the Streak. Will dig up a copy of PacFlyer- my
subscription died and they didn't renew by email.
Stuart Parker
care not to handle the 'baggage' of the passenger behind you'
--
Stuart Parker ZK-JAW Edge 582 trike
Pete wrote in message <37FCFE...@omcs.com.au>...
Pete
Don wrote:
>
> Peter
>
> I fly an Edge 503 trike and have many friends who fly in exceptionally
> thermally conditions of an Australian summer.
Yes, we all have..everyone leaves early morning to get the nice air
unless they are nuts. However we all have to return, by then its
thermally, bumpy all the way back. No one likes it or says I enjoyed the
fly back as much as going there unless they are big noting themselves.
I flew a 582 Quantum... my mates all fly Edges...again Q2 Wing handles
turb. better and those who have been with me as a passenger or flown it
ageed.
However Airborne has brought out this new Streak wing that handles
turbulence a lot better ...flies a lot faster, quicker to set up etc
If I was rich enough I would want this as my Trike especially for Oz
conditions.. as well as the new EdgeX trike, sturdy, well made and
wheels for taking sand and rough terrain.
I have said in this thread of discussion, I hope you have read...if not
go back and read..the 'question' was raised 'what is more funner',
trikes or 3axis.
I disagreed with some of he points raised, having flown both and have
written hundreds of posts on my Quantum, how good it is.
But being objective I said that handling 3axis is a lot easier than
trikes in bumpy air. Read the thread and check out what J R HOWARD
comments were. 3axis also gets pushed around in turbulence, but if you
have to fly several hours in it , its a lot easier and not tiring like a
Trike.
Most Trikers who go out for an hours fly, pick early mornings to get
the nice stable air so that they can enjoy the flight. 3axis do it as
well
and some go a bit later on when the trikers are returning.
I have rarely seen, rarely seen a Trike take off for an hours joy flight
around 11am to 2.00pm on summer days on his own or with a mate.
On day trips which we all do, we leave early in the morning in our
Trikes and have a nice fly to our destination, then sit around eat and
drink etc and wait till mid afternoon to return to get the nice air.
However inexp. trikers would get there, refuel and come straight back to
get the thrill of flying for 2 hours in turbulence....yeah right.
Many of our club members
> undertake day long trips and I can assure you an Oz summer can provide some
> very interesting weather.
I agree I have mentioned this in the Thread on this topic, Murray
trip, club day outings. Articles written in our Oz mags.
I have spoken to a few who have been on the Murray trip, they have had a
ball, flying in crap weather, great sites, togetherness. This is
different as getting bounced around together in a group brings a smile
as you know that everyone else is getting it. When you land you all have
something to share, what it was like, loving it or hating it. Great exp.
Issue of turbulence and handling being "more
> difficult" than three axis are like many statements not particularly
> objective.
>
It is, if its being raised ...obviously you did not read the entire
thread or the comments that were raised.
> In my view its horses for courses but I wouldn't trade my trike for
> anything.
>
No one is asking you to.. and yes its horses for courses, what trike
should I buy, 1 or 2 seaster, what motor, what wing, what prop.
Also same for 3axis, what type of 2seater, motor etc. some handle better
than others, some have better suspensions etc.
I have said in this thread that I loved flying my trike especially
around the islands where the sand dunes and surf rip in.. I get one hell
of a buzz 'wave surfing' as I have prev. mentioned. Try it yourself
alone,
skim 1 to 2 feet between the swells.
If you are not very exp. don't try it...it requires a lot of skill,
judgement and spot on bar work.
Whether you fly powered parachutes for its calm slow scenic views,
gyrocopters for bikers as it seems wherever I go. They handle turb. wind
better than anything else.
Trikes for fun or 3axis for fun....enjoy it.
However do not make opinions that one is better than the other if you
have not flown the other type.
Even then you have to be careful as different makes of aircraft fly
differently.
My final remark is, I believe that Some 3axis ultralights are as much
Fun as Some Trikes. I also beieve that 3axis on the whole is Safer than
any Trikes....I will still fly Trikes having said that.
Some of the reasons are lised below.
If I could afford to buy a 4stroke Rotax 912 it would be even safer
regards engine failures.
To the Questions... What is more Funner, what is safer is a matter of
choice, re costs, Pilots exp. What types he has flown, trikes, gyros,
3axis and then he has
an opinion what is better or safer between the two or three. If not do
not give an opinion which is' better' if you have not flown the other
types...becos its all hearsay.
Hearsay can be full of lies, bulls..t, ego trips.
Cheers to our Toys
Peter
Pete
Well you certainly got the best of both worlds, flying both
with only the cost of one. Well since I sold My Quantum I have been able
to hire my mates Quasar of him and Hire/fly the Bantam whilst trying out
the rest to see whats best to buy.
I am about to buy one and need to know a few things about the Bantam, re
engines, I believe that you are flying with the 582 and Jabiru 2.2
Also have you tried the Xair.
If you don't mind I will email you personally about a few things re the
Bantam..
Re the Magazine... The October issue of Pacific Flyer and the September
issue for the Australian Ultralights.
Cheers Peter
Martha & Russ Oppenheim
few months ago which involved this bolt holding the wing to the trike
coming loose. I'm a three-axis fixed wing pilot, so I don't know a
whole lot about trikes - I flew one once as a passenger. But I knew
this guy - was up flying at the same time he was, actually. But I
landed safely and he didn't. This apparently was a case of not doing a
thorough (or at all maybe) preflight, and of hot-dogging too close to
the ground. He had a BRS, but the bolt came loose at about 200 ft., so
he didn't have time to deploy it. If I were a trike pilot though, you
can be sure I'd have some backup connection on that "Jesus bolt."
Martha Oppenheim
Glenn Allen wrote:
>
> I recently bought a new Sabre 340 . I have about 7 hours on it and it
> seems to fly well . I was concerned to see that it did not come with a
> safety wire or
> strap as backup to the hinge bolt holding the wing to the trike ( a
> 3/8 AN bolt - the " Jesus bolt" ) . I suppose it would be easy to make
> one up .
>
> Are there any views on this ?
>
> I read the TrikeAircraft "incidents" web page and saw that one Sabre
> incident involved wing separation.
>
> http://www.trikeaircraft.com/indexpage.html
>
> Does anyone else know of incidents involving trike wing separation (
> Sabre
> of not ) ?
>
> I do not suppose there would be a lot of control if the bolt gave and
> the safety wire held the wing on but it does give a little peace of
> mind knowing something else it there just in case. I guess a BRS is
> additional insurace.
>
> Glenn Allen
--
----------------------
Russ & Martha Oppenheim
mopp...@ix.netcom.com
----------------------
Mountain Mike^^
tizzz wrote in message <7ts0kg$s1t$1...@news.campuscwix.net>...
>Hey ! Hey ! All full helicopters have a "Jesus Nut" on each rotor head.
O yes. And i have looked at many. You? MM^^
tizzz
complete with blades and dampers leaves the, "helicopter parts", flight
formation in a hurry. Other things causing "Jesus Nut" failure are bad heat
treatment, over torque at a previous installation, cracks and nicks. Believe
me. we military types look at them often.
My point is: The 3/8" AN bolt, installed in this airframe may or
may not meet the required tensile and shear load strength required for the
hole it is stuffed in. Secondly time in service may, and often does, reduce
the available strength in a bolt of the correct specification. Deep wear
rings, nicks and scratches, in my opinion, are mandatory replacement
conditions.
If it were My trike I would replace the Bolt in question with a NAS
1300 series bolt of the correct size, grip length and drilled shank for a
safety pin or wire, torque it to factory specs and not worry about a backup
system. This series bolt is rated for 180-190,000 psi tensile strength. To
maintain peace of mind I would remove and inspect the condition of the bolt
(with no less than a 10 power magnifying glass) on a re-occurring flight
hours interval, say every 25, 50,100 hrs. What ever I felt comfortable with
and fly happily ever after. It is also understood that I will hug my BRS
daily along with my children wife and guns. JIM
Martha & Russ Oppenheim wrote in message
<38001859...@ix.netcom.com>...
>There was an accident here in San Antonio, TX (a fatal, unfortunately) a
>few months ago which involved this bolt holding the wing to the trike
>coming loose. I'm a three-axis fixed wing pilot, so I don't know a
>whole lot about trikes - I flew one once as a passenger. But I knew
>this guy - was up flying at the same time he was, actually. But I
>landed safely and he didn't. This apparently was a case of not doing a
>thorough (or at all maybe) preflight, and of hot-dogging too close to
>the ground. He had a BRS, but the bolt came loose at about 200 ft., so
>he didn't have time to deploy it. If I were a trike pilot though, you
>can be sure I'd have some backup connection on that "Jesus bolt."
>>
>>
Daniel Grunloh
Martha & Russ Oppenheim <mopp...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>There was an accident here in San Antonio, TX (a fatal, unfortunately) a
>few months ago which involved this bolt holding the wing to the trike
I thought that accident was caused by improper locking
of the over-center latch at the nose of the wing, rather
than the hang bolt itself. The lower nose wires came loose
and then the aft wires got caught in the prop.
Maybe I'm thinking of a different accident?
Jay
Daniel Grunloh
"Jay" <jdew...@usit.net> wrote:
>>>There was an accident here in San Antonio, TX (a fatal,
>>>unfortunately) a
>>>few months ago which involved this bolt holding the wing to the
>>>trike
>>I thought that accident was caused by improper locking
>>of the over-center latch at the nose of the wing, rather
>>than the hang bolt itself. The lower nose wires came loose
>>and then the aft wires got caught in the prop.
>>both of them sound pretty scarry
It is not unique to trikes, but something which must be
emphasized for all types of aircraft which are, or can be
dissassembled for transport. You have to put it back
together correctly! It's not difficulty factor like
crosswind landings or avoiding secondary stalls. It's easy.
Those who never dissasemble their planes possible have
a few less things to check every time they fly.
The unfortunate trike pilot may have been interupted or
otherwise distracted during setup as he forgot a step which
should never have been missed. Also apparently no preflight
was done as it should have been caught at that step.
Any pilot who does not do careful preflight inspections _WILL_
someday have a problem while in the air.
tizzz
including most of the experimental prototypes, right down to the apache and
boing ! CH/MH-47E ( the Cheyenne, Army's original blackhawk, was my favorite
though) it is a shame we did not get it into the inventory. A whole 40
years worth (last 15 in R&D) and hated to retire. when you get so old the
military forces retirement JIM
Mountain Mike^^ wrote in message <7ts1nc$dbn$1...@nntp6.atl.mindspring.net>...
>
Scrappman
meet you guys......would be pretty cool,,,,,,, U.L. news Group
flyin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(hehehe)
Scrappman
P.S. Can we do it on a lake somewhere? (hehehe)