Are Rotax Engines Useless?
Captain Bill & Miss Frances
change it to a 582), throw some floats on to splash around the cottage
in the summer.
My problem is I only want to splash when I want to. Not when the
Rotax does.
So I'm wondering if all those instant, non-warning, immediate, no
way out Rotox engine failures I hear about are caused primarily by the
operator or the engine.
Would really like to hear from folks who operate 582's who have had
none, one, or a million engine failures. And some of the things to watch
out for ~ to avoid getting your butt bit when you least need it.
Thanks
Bill
Les or Victoria Wilson
The older 582s did have a problem of quitting without warning and seemingly
not due to operator error or poor maintenance. The newer engines are
great. If one of the newer 582s, especially the really new ones with some
of the 618 features, quits, you can bet it is an operator or maintenance
problem. If it is installed correctly, maintained correctly and operated
within the limits outlined in the operator's manual, the 582 will give you
years of reliable service.
Les
Les or Victoria Wilson
A post script on my previous message.
When installing a 582;
Use a thermostat, use oil injection, use the Rotax oil tank with the hook-up
for a cockpit "low oil" warning light, install a "low oil" warning light.
Liquid cooled Rotax engines are at least as susceptible to cold seizure as
air cooled engines if you don't use a thermostat. (check out Bobby Hester's
web page at www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/7373/ and then select "go to
crash site")
The instructor where I went to the Rotax 2 cycle repair school and a man I
know who sells and repairs Rotax powered SeaDoos both told me they have
never seen an oil injection unit fail. In addition to the convenience of
not mixing gas, the oil injection unit meters the proper oil/gas ratio
depending on the engine RPM.
I know two individuals who destroyed their 582s and did significant damage
to their aircraft because they ran the oil tank dry. The low oil warning
system is super simple to install and it simply illuminates a red light on
the instrument panel when the oil level in the tank gets low.
I hope this helps
Xtreme Aviation
First, I know nothing about Rotax's except what I've heard. I've flown a few
airplanes with Rotax's in them, and did a lot of research on them because I
wanted to build an S-9 for aerobatics with a Rotax.
First, I've heard good and bad. And this is the conclusion I've come to:
Get a Rotax, put in it, tune it, and leave it alone...That will last hundreds
of hours. Put a Rotax in and tweak with it non-stop, it'll quit soon. It's like
a car...You leave a car stock and it will usually go for a few hundred thousand
miles (unless its a Ford) without problems. You tweak it and lower it, or put a
lift kit on the truck, or put some new hydrualic shocks, the vehicle will be
worn out within 100,000 miles. The more you tweak, the more chances are it'll
quit. The guys who own Rotax's that stay running, usually don't mess with them.
Tune them and leave them alone.
I think Rotax has a great engine for certain purposes. No problem with them on
aircraft as long as you treat them right and don't constantly change and screw
with them. Now Rotax on helicopters is a different story...
IMHO, I would go with the Rotax 912 or 912S on your Merlin. More power, more
reliable, and no need for two stroke oil. Especially on floats, you'll
absolutely love the 912S!! Its more money, but well worth it. I got to fly a
SeaRey with a 912S on it, and it was totally awesome!!
just my two cents mind ya, and only one opinion.
Respectfully (and humbly) yours,
Jordan
PPL-ASEL
EAA, IAC, AOPA
"If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room."
Wayne Handley
Paul Westcott
582 for around ten years, totalling around 600+ hours, have several
friends using these engines for an additional 1000+ hours (cumulative)
and non have had any stoppages of failures. Four of the five
airplanes are operated with mixed fuel, based in the idea that there's
more chance of failure due to oil injection, not to mention the weight
and complication of the oil tank.
There's no reason for the Rotax to fail if you operate it within it's
design parameters. One thing we all have in common is to keep it
jetted so the EGTs don't go above 1150, use a cruise rpm of around
5500-5600, warm up the engine before applying full power and not
idling the engine during long descents.
BTW these five airplanes are all Avids with floats which does put a
heavier load on the engine.
Paul Westcott
Bobby Hester
> I just bought an older Merlin (tapered wing) with a 503 (going to
> change it to a 582), throw some floats on to splash around the cottage
> in the summer.
>
> My problem is I only want to splash when I want to. Not when the
> Rotax does.
>
> So I'm wondering if all those instant, non-warning, immediate, no
> way out Rotox engine failures I hear about are caused primarily by the
> operator or the engine.
>
> Would really like to hear from folks who operate 582's who have had
> none, one, or a million engine failures. And some of the things to watch
> out for ~ to avoid getting your butt bit when you least need it.
>
> Thanks
> Bill
Check out my crash site
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/7373/Crash.html
Check out my 582 tips page
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/7373/582Tips/582tips.html
--
Surfing the Web from Hopkinsville, KY
Visit my web site at: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/7373/
And see my Rans S12xl experimental aircraft
Dave Loveman
moon...@sympatico.ca wrote:
> I just bought an older Merlin (tapered wing) with a 503 (going to
> change it to a 582), throw some floats on to splash around the cottage
> in the summer.
>
> My problem is I only want to splash when I want to. Not when the
> Rotax does.
>
> So I'm wondering if all those instant, non-warning, immediate, no
> way out Rotox engine failures I hear about are caused primarily by the
> operator or the engine.
>
> Would really like to hear from folks who operate 582's who have had
> none, one, or a million engine failures. And some of the things to
watch
> out for ~ to avoid getting your butt bit when you least need it.
>
> Thanks
> Bill
>
>
Merlin before worrying about the Rotax engine. Make sure to check out
the D cell for fallen ribs inside, the motor mount for cracks in the
tubing, and the landing gear area where the bungees wrap for bending.
Relocation of the gas tank and support for the windshield would be some
other areas of concern.
The new 582's and any built after 95 are bulletin proof for 300 hours.
--
Dave Loveman
I would like to invite you to browse at:
http://www.ultralightnews.com
http://www.ultralightflyer.com
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Captain Bill & Miss Frances
Thanks for the info on the Merlin
> Bill I would suggest you first concern yourself with updates to the
> Merlin before worrying about the Rotax engine. Make sure to check out
> the D cell for fallen ribs inside
The rib mod inside the D Cell has been done.
> motor mount for cracks in the tubing,
A new motor mount will be used with the changeover from the 503 to 582.
> the landing gear area where the bungees wrap for bending.
I didn't see any damage, but aircraft has only 12 hr TT and I will be
putting it on floats. But it does raise a point, I was wondering why every
picture I saw of a Merlin on floats ~ that heavy landing gear was still
hanging there. Hmmmm.
> Relocation of the gas tank and support for the windshield
Not aware of these, could you explain further.
> The new 582's and any built after 95 are bulletin proof for 300 hours.
Posts like this make me feel better.
> I would like to invite you to browse at:
> http://www.ultralightnews.com
I drop by your web site on a regular basis. You certainly put some effort
into it, and information provided is appreciated.
Regards
Bill
Captain Bill & Miss Frances
Les,
Thanks for the info, printed off your post so I don't forget the points you
made.
Regards
Bill
Captain Bill & Miss Frances
> First, I've heard good and bad. And this is the conclusion I've come to:
> Get a Rotax, put in it, tune it, and leave it alone...
I wondered if some of the probes come from "habitual home mechanics".
> The more you tweak, the more chances it will quit.
I figure Rotax spends more money on R & D in ten minutes than I will make in my
entire life.
> IMHO, I would go with the Rotax 912 or 912S on your Merlin.
IMHO, I agree with you. Now all we have to do is convince Miss Frances. And for you
guys who may chuckle about who wears the pants in our house. Well it's me. After 5
kids, I'm afraid to take them off.
Regards
Bill
Captain Bill & Miss Frances
> Four of the five airplanes are operated with mixed fuel, based in the idea
> that there's
> more chance of failure due to oil injection, not to mention the weight
> and complication of the oil tank.
Good points.
> One thing we all have in common is to keep it
> jetted so the EGTs don't go above 1150
> BTW these five airplanes are all Avids with floats which does put a
> heavier load on the engine.
What does your Avid gross at? And what type of floats did you use?
Regards
Bill
Captain Bill & Miss Frances
> Check out my crash site
> http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/7373/Crash.html
>
> Check out my 582 tips page
> http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/7373/582Tips/582tips.html
>
I think your site should be required reading for anyone who flys on how fast
something can happen. Sure tells a story of what can happen, what you can do
wrong, what you can do right, and what you can't do anything about.
You one of the few that has returned from a low level stall. I think we can
all learn from someone who can still walk and talk after something like that.
Regards
Bill
Bobby Hester
>
> The new 582's and any built after 95 are bulletin proof for 300 hours.
>
I wouldn't agree with that! I've got 425 hrs. now but have had problems!
Xtreme Aviation
>my
>entire life.
>
Yep! Exactly. So don't listen to the guys who tell you to re-jet it every
flight. Jet it, and leave it alone. What I would do if I were you, is buy a 503
and put a tune pipe on it. There are lots of guys who dog the tune pipe, bt
there is a guy down in South Florida here that has a tune pipe on his 503. He
gets the same hp as a 583 or just short of, and he saves a tone of weight!! He
said that he has over 500 problem free hours on it. He flies an S-12 and he
said that performance is absolutely awesome. Just another $.02.
Mark Smith
> Yep! Exactly. So don't listen to the guys who tell you to re-jet it every
> flight. Jet it, and leave it alone. What I would do if I were you, is buy a 503
> and put a tune pipe on it.
,,,,,,,
Hard to believe you would recommened to just leave it alone and then in
the same post, recommend a tuned pipe.
Or do you not realize that jetting with the tuned pipe is much more
critical and 'black book' than with the stock exhaust,,,, and a
recommeneded prop, gearbox combination.
--
Mark Smith mailto:tri...@trikite.com
Tri-State Kite Sales
1121 N Locust St
Mt Vernon, IN 47620 http://www.trikite.com
Xtreme Aviation
>the same post, recommend a tuned pipe.
>
>Or do you not realize that jetting with the tuned pipe is much more
>critical and 'black book' than with the stock exhaust,,,, and a
>recommeneded prop, gearbox combination.
Hi Mark,
No, it was just a suggestion. Leave it alone means jet it, and leave it alone.
Obviously, if you change the pipe, you need to rejet it. So rejet it, then
leave it alone. I've seen 98% of people who fittle with their engine have
problems, if not all together failures. But I've seen 98% of people who don't
screw with the engines every 5 minutes go for hundreds of hours without
problems. I don't see anything wrong with putting a pipe on a Rotax. And I
don't see anything wrong with rejetting a Rotax. What I see a problem with is
constant rejetting for every degree of tempature change, etc. My own feelings
are this: "Tune it, leave it the hell alone, and it will do fine. Mess with it
all the time, you create more problems and potential engine failures than you
can handle." You always hear these guys saying "Oh but it'll run better," "he
said if I," "I think if I just adjust a little..." Those are the guys you hear
about having engine problems. The guys who say "leave well enough alone" are
the guys who don't. IMHO mind ya.
Daniel Grunloh
wingman...@aol.com (Xtreme Aviation) wrote:
>problems, if not all together failures. But I've seen 98% of people who don't
>screw with the engines every 5 minutes go for hundreds of hours without
>problems. I don't see anything wrong with putting a pipe on a Rotax.
The Rotax comes already with the best pipe available for general
flying. Even the most experienced UL mechanics tend to stay with
the standard pipe. Even the smallest alteration in the stock exhaust
can change the mixture on a 2-stroke.
>constant rejetting for every degree of tempature change, etc. My own feelings
>are this: "Tune it, leave it the hell alone, and it will do fine. Mess with it
>all the time, you create more problems and potential engine failures than you
>can handle."
Unfortunately most two strokes don't come with mixture control
as on most GA aircraft. If you fly in a lot of different conditions
of altitude and temperature you may have to change the jets, or do
something! If you fly in early morning at 35 degrees and then go up
more than 5000 ft on the next day when it's 70 on the ground, all
will not be well. Rotax has a chart for your guidance.
I have throttled back at 6000 ft. and had the engine begin to 4-stroke
because it was way too rich. Some of us change jets only seasonally
and then it's often only the clip on the needle that needs to be
moved. I tend to drop the little clip in the grass so I installed Mike
Jocober's inflight mixture control. Very nice. I don't have to change
it very much. This Sunday morning it was 11 degrees at takeoff.
Actually I like to change the main jet just twice a year here in
Illinois (the land of changing weather) and then I only tend to
fiddle with the mixture control for high altitudes.
Perhaps you are saying that folks should not fiddle with jets if
there is something wrong with the engine. The standard exhaust
with standard jets and correctly propped engine should give the
nominal CHT and EGT values. If it does not, then figure out why.
Don't be trying to "fix" it by changing jets. How's that?
--------------
Daniel Grunloh (gru...@uiuc.edu)
http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~grunloh
WGeorge737
carbs on my 582. They are a bit pricey but they work. I work sea level to
10,000 feet routinely and they adjust the mixture pefectly. Plugs look great
and EGTs are whre I want them.
Bill George
Mk-3 582 "C" Powerfin
Daniel Grunloh
gru...@uiuc.edu (Daniel Grunloh) wrote:
>Unfortunately most two strokes don't come with mixture control
>as on most GA aircraft. If you fly in a lot of different conditions
>of altitude and temperature you may have to change the jets, or do
>something! If you fly in early morning at 35 degrees and then go up
>more than 5000 ft on the next day when it's 70 on the ground, all
>will not be well. Rotax has a chart for your guidance.
A few more thoughts. Most folks who fly Ul's in the range of 40-90
degrees and never go up more than 3000 ft. never have to do
anything with the carb settings. It's amazingly tolerant if you
avoid the extremes when at either range.
However, at almost every Oshkosh and Sun-n-Fun, there are a few
pilots on the UL flightline who have to change something because
they came from a much different climate or altitude.
It ran fine back home in Idaho!
Daniel Grunloh
My mouth waters thinking about that plane with that prop. I happen
to think they are very smooth and quiet. Nice plane too.
10,000 feet routinely? You got mountains for scenery? Want to adopt?
:-)
Paul Westcott
All five Avids we had at Juneau were on Avid's fiberglass floats.
They all were model C or IVs and grossed out at 1150. I have on
occasion flown my airplane, N87PW in excess of 1250lbs though. The
performance does deteriorate, especially take off and climb although
it's still acceptable. Of the five airplanes we had three using Warp
Drive 2 blade props, one with a Warp 3 blade and one with an IVO 3
blade. The two blade props provided the best performance by far
though the three bladers were smoother running. The Warp Drive blades
were better for float use since the steel inlaid LEs were impervious
to spray and rain erosion. Not so for the IVO with it's metal tape
LE.
Stuart Parker
stuck ring. Entirely preventable if I had followed the Rotax maintenance
schedule (which called for cleaning the ring grooves every 150 hours)
instead of the one provided by the airframe manufacturer. But I would have
had a strip-down coming up in the next 50 hours as the big end radial
clearances were starting to move out to Rotax's limits.
There are others who have got considerably more time out of theirs.
Fuel/oil mix and engine management are probably the most likely to influence
service life.
IMHO, still the best power to weight and value for money donkey in that HP
range, just watch the wear limits.
--
Stuart Parker
Airborne Edge 582 ZK-JAW
Captain Bill & Miss Frances wrote in message
<38CEBAC7...@sympatico.ca>...
WGeorge737
to think they are very smooth and quiet. Nice plane too.
10,000 feet routinely? You got mountains for scenery? Want to adopt? >>
Excellent performance too. The other day I was still looking at a solid 500 FPM
passing 9500. We have 14000 ft Mauna Kea in our back yard. Too many older kids
already. :-)
Bill G
Xtreme Aviation
>FPM
>passing 9500. We have 14000 ft Mauna Kea in our back yard. Too many older
>kids
>already. :-)
>
>Bill G
What airplane and what engine was this again??
WGeorge737
Jordan
PPL-ASEL
EAA, IAC, AOPA >>
Kolb Mk-3 with 582 "C" box and Powerfin 68" 3 Blade. You can see it on my
somewhhat outdated web page at:
http://members.aol.com/wgeorge737/kolbpage/kolbplane.html
Bill George
ATP, CFI-I,EAA,USUA and all that
Robert Frischer
uncle will ban the 2 cycles on pollution grounds. The 912's sure seem to do
ok.
--
Robert Frischer, rfri...@iname.com
Captain Bill & Miss Frances <moon...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:38CEBAC7...@sympatico.ca...
Shotzy
taxes.
Robert Frischer wrote in message ...
Scrappman
Scrappman
And to report income!!!!!!!
Daniel Grunloh
>Kolb Mk-3 with 582 "C" box and Powerfin 68" 3 Blade. You can see it on my
>somewhhat outdated web page at:
>
>http://members.aol.com/wgeorge737/kolbpage/kolbplane.html
>
>Bill George
>ATP, CFI-I,EAA,USUA and all that
Thanks very much Bill. That's a good webpage and the photos
are great. Especially the views at altitude.
Mike Lund
Scrappman wrote in message <38D1A0B5...@microassist.com>...
> ya,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
> Scrappman
> And to report income!!!!!!!
>
That can be easilly fixed.
http://www.detaxcanada.org/index.htm
Mostly Canadaian, but a lot of good info and links for the USA as well
Mike
Captain Bill & Miss Frances
might be good reading:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/general/flttrain/SpinEvalualtion/Title_e.htm
Joe Mikus
My name is Joe Mikus and I operate Ultralight Flight Training School in
Brisbane Australia.
We Have two A/C with rotax 582 engines.
One has now 580 hours of operation with no eng/fail and the other 200 hours
with no eng/fail.
We are most particular of our engine maintenance.
Both engines run on 100 LLP avgas one on TTS oil one on Penrite oil.
Spark plugs are removed and clean every 25 hour and replaced every 50 hours.
Some other maintenance details ,such as keep your fuel filters and air
cleaners clean,regular checks of your throttle cables, replace needles and
main jets in your carburetors every 150 hours Ect.
If you like to have any more details of our maintenance schedule,please
email to joe...@one.net.au.
PS:Most important thing of rotax engines is to warm them up to at least 60
degrees celsius prior to applying more than 3000 rpm and cool them down
before shut down for at least on minute in idle mode.
I hope this answers some of your Q.
Regards
Joe Mikus CFI L2
972
<s.pa...@clear.net.nz> wrote:
> Did 350 hours on my 582 before I had a rear piston seizure- caused
> by a
> stuck ring. Entirely preventable if I had followed the Rotax
> maintenance
> schedule (which called for cleaning the ring grooves every 150
> hours)
> instead of the one provided by the airframe manufacturer. But I
> would have
> had a strip-down coming up in the next 50 hours as the big end
> radial
> clearances were starting to move out to Rotax's limits.
schedule and an indication of when bearing clearances are becoming
unacceptable. My 582 is at 513 hrs and the bearings not moving yet, but
that day will come of course.
972.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Mark Smith
>
> In article <PjjA4.155$Ka....@news.clear.net.nz>, "Stuart Parker"
> <s.pa...@clear.net.nz> wrote:
> > Did 350 hours on my 582 before I had a rear piston seizure- caused
> > by a
> > stuck ring. Entirely preventable if I had followed the Rotax
> > maintenance
> > schedule (which called for cleaning the ring grooves every 150
> > hours)
> > instead of the one provided by the airframe manufacturer. But I
> > would have
> > had a strip-down coming up in the next 50 hours as the big end
> > radial
> > clearances were starting to move out to Rotax's limits.
> I would appreciate information on where you got the Rotax maintenance
> schedule and an indication of when bearing clearances are becoming
> unacceptable. My 582 is at 513 hrs and the bearings not moving yet, but
> that day will come of course.
Hopefully your bearings keep going round and round with no 'moving' at
all.
and I think he might be referring to the head end of the cylinder
wearing to the rotax limit on diameter, but it is a little cryptic !!!
Bobby Hester
> Hi Bill,
> My name is Joe Mikus and I operate Ultralight Flight Training School in
> Brisbane Australia.
> We Have two A/C with rotax 582 engines.
> One has now 580 hours of operation with no eng/fail and the other 200 hours
> with no eng/fail.
When do you think you'll replace your crank? I'm at 425 hrs. now.
My bottom rings stick at about 75 hrs.. Do you have that problem? I take my
cylinders off at 75 hrs. and clean the pistons and rings.
Bobby Hester
Scrappman
couple of hundred hrs. At a sem. I just attended the tec. showed many pistons
from mixed verses inj. The diff. was bigtime.
Scrappman
Jay
Wonder if it has anything to do with your sticking rings?
Jay
Bobby Hester <bhe...@apex.net> wrote in message
news:38D6DBE2...@apex.net...
Stuart Parker
Big end radial clearance measurement method is described in section 7.2.3 of
the Rotax 582 Repair Manual (ref # 899 081). This is useful only with a
stripped down motor. Easier to get an indicative measurement by measuring
piston end play with a dial turn indicator while pumping air in & out of the
cylinder using a special tester in a spark plug hole. We do that at 25 hour
intervals when checking/changing the plugs.
The issue here is wear on the big end or crank pin bearing surfaces. Rotax
specify 0.020 to 0.033mm new, with a wear limit of 0.05mm when measured
using their method.
Measuring the piston end-play adds a few other tolerances to the stack
(wrist pin clearances, lateral movement of the piston), giving typical
values of 0.04mm new, and about 0.06mm on an old engine. But the critical
thing appears to be not so much the absolute value, but when the clearances
start to move up significantly between measurement intervals. Theory is
that this happens when the hardened surfaces are starting to wear through.
Re the maintenance schedule- page 47 of the 582 Operators Manual list item
31- Inspect piston ring grooves every 50 hours, with a note that if piston
rings stick, clean and replace if necessary.
OK?
--
Stuart Parker
Airborne Edge 582 ZK-JAW
Mark Smith wrote in message <38D6B7...@trikite.com>...
Daniel Grunloh
Scrappman <rap...@microassist.com> wrote:
>Oil injection would solve the sticking ring problem. Or atleast stay it off a
>couple of hundred hrs. At a sem. I just attended the tec. showed many pistons
>from mixed verses inj. The diff. was bigtime.
> Scrappman
Thanks very much for that VERY interesting information.
One of the causes of ring sticking may be varnish build up
from burning old stale premix. Someone once said that one
tank of really old premix might leave more residues than a
whole season of flying with fresh fuel.
It's possible that a lot of our problems with ring sticking
could be as simple as that. There have been claims that the
oil and fuel may interact and change properties over time.
Oil injection systems eliminate that possibility. You could
still have old stale gas cause a problem itself, but the
interaction of oil and fuel additives over time is removed.
VERY INTERESTING.
Bobby Hester
> Oil injection would solve the sticking ring problem. Or atleast stay it off a
> couple of hundred hrs. At a sem. I just attended the tec. showed many pistons
> from mixed verses inj. The diff. was bigtime.
> Scrappman
>
> Bobby Hester wrote:
>
> > Joe Mikus wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Bill,
> > > My name is Joe Mikus and I operate Ultralight Flight Training School in
> > > Brisbane Australia.
> > > We Have two A/C with rotax 582 engines.
> > > One has now 580 hours of operation with no eng/fail and the other 200 hours
> > > with no eng/fail.
> >
> > When do you think you'll replace your crank? I'm at 425 hrs. now.
> >
> > My bottom rings stick at about 75 hrs.. Do you have that problem? I take my
> > cylinders off at 75 hrs. and clean the pistons and rings.
My engine is oil injected!
Bobby Hester
> Hey Bobby. I was just wondering, What is your egt temp usually at cruise?
> Wonder if it has anything to do with your sticking rings?
>
> Jay
>
> Bobby Hester <bhe...@apex.net> wrote in message
> news:38D6DBE2...@apex.net...
> > Joe Mikus wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Bill,
> > > My name is Joe Mikus and I operate Ultralight Flight Training School in
> > > Brisbane Australia.
> > > We Have two A/C with rotax 582 engines.
> > > One has now 580 hours of operation with no eng/fail and the other 200
> hours
> > > with no eng/fail.
> >
> > When do you think you'll replace your crank? I'm at 425 hrs. now.
> >
> > My bottom rings stick at about 75 hrs.. Do you have that problem? I take
> my
> > cylinders off at 75 hrs. and clean the pistons and rings.
Usally about 1000-1030
Scrappman
take one month? Must depend on alot of variables, temp, amount, sunlight ect?
Scrappman
Daniel Grunloh wrote:
> In article <38D6DD82...@microassist.com>,
> Scrappman <rap...@microassist.com> wrote:
>
> >Oil injection would solve the sticking ring problem. Or atleast stay it off a
> >couple of hundred hrs. At a sem. I just attended the tec. showed many pistons
> >from mixed verses inj. The diff. was bigtime.
> > Scrappman
>
Bobby Hester
> Daniel Grunloh wrote:
>
> > In article <38D6DD82...@microassist.com>,
> > Scrappman <rap...@microassist.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Oil injection would solve the sticking ring problem. Or atleast stay it off a
> > >couple of hundred hrs. At a sem. I just attended the tec. showed many pistons
> > >from mixed verses inj. The diff. was bigtime.
> > > Scrappman
> >
> > Thanks very much for that VERY interesting information.
> >
> > One of the causes of ring sticking may be varnish build up
> > from burning old stale premix. Someone once said that one
> > tank of really old premix might leave more residues than a
> > whole season of flying with fresh fuel.
> >
> > It's possible that a lot of our problems with ring sticking
> > could be as simple as that. There have been claims that the
> > oil and fuel may interact and change properties over time.
> >
> > Oil injection systems eliminate that possibility. You could
> > still have old stale gas cause a problem itself, but the
> > interaction of oil and fuel additives over time is removed.
> >
> > VERY INTERESTING.
> >
> > --------------
> > Daniel Grunloh (gru...@uiuc.edu)
> > http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~grunloh
I have oil injection and I fly 200 hrs a year. The gas does have have time to get
stale! :-)
Daniel Grunloh
>> > One of the causes of ring sticking may be varnish build up
>> > from burning old stale premix. Someone once said that one
>> > tank of really old premix might leave more residues than a
>> > whole season of flying with fresh fuel.
>
>I have oil injection and I fly 200 hrs a year. The gas does have have time to
>get stale! :-)
>
That's the ticket!!!
I generally toss out the premix after a coule weeks in summer or
a couple months in winter. Two months without flying feels like
eternity to me. The gas goes in the old tractor or weed mower.
I try to avoid mixing to much in advance, keep the cans in a cool
place and close the vents to reduce evaporation of the volatile
components.
One Spring, I saw pilot pull out an ultralight with 6 months old
premix, start it up and go flying. I was surprised it even ran.
luc...@metrowerks.com
gru...@uiuc.edu (Daniel Grunloh) wrote:
A local here does that too. His MX is hangared with Capt. America IV,
as a matter of fact, right behind me. It sits for months on end, and
then one Sunday he'll come out and take it up around the patch. He'll
often add fresh fuel, but he'll not drain out the old stuff that's been
in there for the several months it sat.
He's braver than me.......
I try to fly my plane once a week, and if it'll have to sit longer than
two weeks (hasn't happened yet), I'll at least come out and run the
motor for a bit on the ground to get a fresh coating of fuel/oil mix on
all the parts inside and burn off any moisture. Ideally, it's got fresh
gas going through the tank/fuel system once a week.
I've never run gas older than two weeks through the motor yet.....
Lucien S.
PP-ASEL.
Captain America IV.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Jay
temps 100 higher minimum. IM sure you would get better gas mileage by at
least 1/2 gph.
Jay
Bobby Hester <bhe...@apex.net> wrote in message
news:38D83FEA...@apex.net...
> Jay wrote:
>
> > Hey Bobby. I was just wondering, What is your egt temp usually at
cruise?
> > Wonder if it has anything to do with your sticking rings?
> >
> > Jay
> >
> > Bobby Hester <bhe...@apex.net> wrote in message
> > news:38D6DBE2...@apex.net...
> > > Joe Mikus wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Bill,
> > > > My name is Joe Mikus and I operate Ultralight Flight Training School
in
> > > > Brisbane Australia.
> > > > We Have two A/C with rotax 582 engines.
> > > > One has now 580 hours of operation with no eng/fail and the other
200
> > hours
> > > > with no eng/fail.
> > >
> > > When do you think you'll replace your crank? I'm at 425 hrs. now.
> > >
> > > My bottom rings stick at about 75 hrs.. Do you have that problem? I
take
> > my
> > > cylinders off at 75 hrs. and clean the pistons and rings.
>
> Usally about 1000-1030
>
>
AIRSCREWS
you wouldn't have to worry near as much about fuel breaking down or your mix
getting stale and sticking your rings
S.B.
Daniel Grunloh
Thanks Steve.
Here is the challenge often made by Frank Beagle. I ignored
it for many years before I relented.
Take out your current plugs and look at them. See if there is
any carbon or waxy greasy deposits on the outer rims. Similar
deposits are being laid down elsewhere in the combustion
chamber.
Now put in new plugs and run one or two tanks of Avgas using
any oil you want. Remove plugs and compare. Draw your own
conclusions. After 25 hours I find grey-green mineral like
deposits but no dark color and the rims are dry.
I think you might almost be able to tell which type of fuel a
person is running by sticking your finger in the end of
the exhaust pipe. It should come out clean.
As they say, your mileage may vary.
Daniel Grunloh
airs...@aol.com (AIRSCREWS) wrote:
>If you guys ran AV-GAS 100 LL
> you wouldn't have to worry near as much about fuel breaking down or your mix
>getting stale and sticking your rings
> S.B.
Someone wrote me privately with a question on this topic and
I decided to share my response.
>Are you saying 100LL is *better* than using high octane *unleaded*
>automotive gasoline in a Rotax? I thought I've repeatedly read that 100LL
>causes lead deposits on the plugs and combustion chambers and therefore
>should only be used when auto gas is unavailable.
>
>Could you straighten me out?
Yes this is what we are discussing. Some of us believe
that the AVGAS is indeed better than the autofuel as it
is now formulated. The story about lead deposits has
been repeated so often people believe it without checking.
It's not nearly as bad as the other crap that comes from
the auto fuel.
The other poster Steve Beatty, an experienced Rotax repair
mechanic claims he has over 1000 hours flying with 100LL.
We won't burn anything else.
What has happened is that autofuel has been reformulated
to reduce pollution and make it better for fuel enjection.
The old 100LL Avgas is still old-fashioned real gasoline.
It even smells like gasoline.
Finally, more and more ultralight and lightplane pilots
are flying long cross-country flights where only AVgas
is available at the airports. An acqauntance has flown
all the way around the perimeter of the USA in a Kolb
using mostly AVGas.
The Challenger, Titan and Rans planes do this type of
flying a lot, using Avgas.
Added P.S..... The lead deposits should not that much worse
than in all the GA planes where it is used routinely. I
just change my plugs every 25 hours and keep on flying.
Bobby Hester
> If you guys ran AV-GAS 100 LL
> you wouldn't have to worry near as much about fuel breaking down or your mix
> getting stale and sticking your rings
> S.B.
AV-GAS 100 LL causes build up on the piston heads so I would think that it would
also get in the ring grooves. What do you say about this Mark Smith?
Al Mills
100LL means 100 octane, Low Lead. Octane is an additive which causes
combustion to occur relatively slowly. This allows for a smoother burn
therefore more completely burning the fuel. Carbon deposits are nothing more
or less than unburned fossil fuel matter. The lower your octane rating, the
hotter the cylinder combustion temps will be. This leads to even less
complete burning, detonation, and eventually pre-ignition. Then your engine
is about to be trash.
--
AL Mills
...but we are all as
an unclean thing,
and all our righteousness'
are as filthy rags, and
we all do fade as a leaf,
and our iniquities like the wind
have taken us away.
Is. 64:6
"Bobby Hester" <bhe...@apex.net> wrote in message
news:38DBDF4E...@apex.net...
Andrew Puddifer
Doesn't really matter how old fuel is(within reason), I think it's more the way it's kept that matters.
For example, just took my boat out last weekend, I added some new fuel(two stroke) and it fired straight up after 4
months of disuse, no problems. Ran great too.
I guess as the new fuel is added, all the oil is mixed back into the solution, and if the lighter hydrocarbons don't
get to evaporate, the fuel should be fine.
I always crank my engine over every month or so to make sure the rings don't stick though....cranking the engine
without spark puts a nice coating of fuel/oil on everything in my opinion. I should run it, but I don't have easy access
to a hose where it is.
I know it's not really a plane, but it does highlight what I was trying to say!
Regards, Andrew.
Bobby Hester
> The basics, gentlemen.
> 100LL means 100 octane, Low Lead. Octane is an additive which causes
> combustion to occur relatively slowly. This allows for a smoother burn
> therefore more completely burning the fuel. Carbon deposits are nothing more
> or less than unburned fossil fuel matter. The lower your octane rating, the
> hotter the cylinder combustion temps will be. This leads to even less
> complete burning, detonation, and eventually pre-ignition. Then your engine
> is about to be trash.
>
And Rotax does not recommend 100LL because......why?
IFLYAMPHIB
>
> Doesn't really matter how old fuel is(within reason), I think it's more the
>way it's kept that matters.
Actually it does matter. Your engine may run after sitting long periods. Rotax
recommends 92 octane minimum. Fuel looses its octane rating at a rate of 1 per
month. 92 this month, 89 next month, 87 the 3rd month and so on. If its
carburated, you will also have to worry about varnishing the thing up after
sitting awhile. Jim
Jim Ratte
Recreational Mobility
http://www.recreationalmobility.com
Aventura and Flightstar aircraft kits, ultralight parts and accessories
luc...@metrowerks.com
Bobby Hester <bhe...@apex.net> wrote:
IIRC, Rotax doesn't specifically recommend against using avgas, they
just warn you about the increased chances of plug deposits due to the
lead.
Otherwise, I hadn't really thought about using avgas but the pro-avgas
arguments in this thread make sense to me.
And now that autogas costs almost as much as avgas, I wonder if I ought
not to switch over?
Lucien S.
PP-ASEL.
Captain America IV.
> Al Mills wrote:
Daniel Grunloh
>And Rotax does not recommend 100LL because......why?
I don't know. It could be that only a tiny fraction of
their engines are used in airplanes and they make them
all pretty much the same. Any small engine these days
MUST be listed as for unleaded fuel, or it will not sell.
Note that Rotax does not say 100LL is prohibited.
Anyway, many people get VERY good results with autofuel
especially if the do not store it mixed a long time and
especially if they inspect and/or clean the rings every
150 hours.
To repeat, Steve Beatty claims to have over 1100 hours on
a Rotax 447 running only 100LL and the engine has never
been taken apart. How is that possible?
Daniel Grunloh
gru...@uiuc.edu (Daniel Grunloh) wrote:
>To repeat, Steve Beatty claims to have over 1100 hours on
>a Rotax 447 running only 100LL and the engine has never
>been taken apart. How is that possible?
Incidently I heard a story told in the mid 80's by Ron
Shettler, the North American distributer for Rotax. He
pioneered the use of Rotax in ultralights (and previously
developed large scale RC airplane engines).
Ron said there were remote wilderness pumping applications
where the Rotax engines would run nonstop for 1000 hours
or more. A month or more without shutting down. They
would just move the pickup tube to the next 55 gal drum.
Shotzy
combustion or heat to vaporize the oil. Providing crank speed is fast enough
to really suck some fuel. We always preserved turbines that way for temp
storage.
Andrew Puddifer wrote in message <38DF432A...@ihug.com.au>...
> Hi all,
>
> Doesn't really matter how old fuel is(within reason), I think it's more
the way it's kept that matters.
Hephaestus
Bobby Hester <bhe...@apex.net> wrote in article
<38DF67F0...@apex.net>...
> Al Mills wrote:
>
> > The basics, gentlemen.
> > 100LL means 100 octane, Low Lead. Octane is an additive which causes
> > combustion to occur relatively slowly.
snip
> >
>
> And Rotax does not recommend 100LL because......why?
>
Bobby Hester
> Er, just run that past me one more time?
>
> Bobby Hester <bhe...@apex.net> wrote in article
> <38DF67F0...@apex.net>...
> > Al Mills wrote:
> >
> > > The basics, gentlemen.
> > > 100LL means 100 octane, Low Lead. Octane is an additive which causes
> > > combustion to occur relatively slowly.
>
> snip
>
> > >
> >
> > And Rotax does not recommend 100LL because......why?
>
If you had read all his post he was giving reasons why 100LL was good, I was
asking why Rotax does not recommend it?
Daniel Grunloh
>Hephaestus wrote:
>
>> Er, just run that past me one more time?
>> > Al Mills wrote:
>> >
>> > > The basics, gentlemen.
>> > > 100LL means 100 octane, Low Lead. Octane is an additive which causes
>> > > combustion to occur relatively slowly.
>If you had read all his post he was giving reasons why 100LL was good, I was
>asking why Rotax does not recommend it?
I believe the statement that "Octane is an additive" is in question.
:-)
Jim M
Octane is not an additive. The lead is the additive which increases the
octane rating. More lead=higher octane.
Regards,
Jim Mc Mahon
Airborne Edge X/582/Wizard Wing
"Rita's Choice"
Virginia & Florida
http://community.webtv.net/jim_m_2/JimsTrikeSite
972
Kettering of GM fame?) they found many substances that would raise the
octane rating, but tetraethyl lead gave the best bang for the buck. The
last leaded fuel is due to be totally replaced in Australia this year
by leadfree of equivalent rating. No info yet on what they'll use, but
it's unlikely to be benzene as being carcinogenic it was withdrawn from
public sale some 30 years ago. Because it smells good people weren't
wary of it. Luckily pyridine, another fierce carcinogen, has a most
offensive pong. Originally it was added here to methylated spirits to
make it unpalatable to drink!
972.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Mike Marini
Bobby Hester <bhe...@apex.net> wrote in message
news:38DF67F0...@apex.net...
> Al Mills wrote:
>
> > The basics, gentlemen.
> > 100LL means 100 octane, Low Lead. Octane is an additive which causes
> > combustion to occur relatively slowly.
Isn't the Octane rating a benchmark that compares a fuel's ignition
properties to a standard fuel
(i.e. Octane ) thus allowing for fuels that can have less or more than 100%
?
>
> And Rotax does not recommend 100LL because......why?
I can't recall seeing that warning, although if you are using auto gas, it
is hard to find 94 oc fuel that
isn't "gasohol" which is definitely not good for your Rotax.
972
> Isn't the Octane rating a benchmark that compares a fuel's
> ignition
> properties to a standard fuel
> (i.e. Octane ) thus allowing for fuels that can have less or more
> than 100%
> ?
> >
> > And Rotax does not recommend 100LL because......why?
> I can't recall seeing that warning, although if you are using auto
> gas, it
> is hard to find 94 oc fuel that
> isn't "gasohol" which is definitely not good for your Rotax.
compression ratio fuels could stand without knocking octane came out
tops. For this reason it was selected as a standard against which other
fuels could be compared, hence the 100 rating. Of course since then
better fuels have been found which exceed "100". Australia goes
completely leadfree for cars this year. The replacement for lead is
called Valvemaster, a phosphorus compound marketed by Shell in this
country and originally developed to clean carburettors. In that case
it's anti-knock properties were probably discovered by accident. Don't
know what is planned for Avgas, I believe we have only one grade, down
from three some years ago. There are very few additives here in petrol,
alcohol (ethyl, I preume) isn't one of them, although there have been
trials of it in parts of the country where excess alcohol is available
from sugar refineries.
Al Mills
> octane rating. More lead=higher octane.
Well, okay. I stand corrected on that. It's what I was thinking! Yeah,
that's the ticket...
--
AL Mills
...but we are all as
an unclean thing,
and all our righteousness'
are as filthy rags, and
we all do fade as a leaf,
and our iniquities like the wind
have taken us away.
Is. 64:6
"Jim M" <jim...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:8399-38E...@storefull-138.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> You are correct in your skepticism!
>
>
agav...@my-deja.com
> > If you guys ran AV-GAS 100 LL
> > you wouldn't have to worry near as much about fuel breaking down
>
> AV-GAS 100 LL causes build up on the piston heads so I would think
that it would
> also get in the ring grooves. What do you say about this Mark Smith?
I've been told by someone with a lot of experience not to use
AVGAS because it has too much lead for two cycles. There is an
additive that is supposed to keep auto gas fresh. Hey even with the
price increase, it doesn't cost that much to dump the old stuff.
Oh, watch out for the EPA.
Mike Marini
Burning bad avgas (wrong mix, water, stale etc) in the non-flying engine of
your choice
is a time honoured pastime around here <g>
Pick a lawnmower, any lawnmower!
Throwing out gas, sheesh....
<agav...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8d4fa6$8ac$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Mr.Ed
fuel several months old without any problem (so far). Maybe our fuel is
different over here in the UK ...
Ed
Mike Marini wrote in message ...