Restoring an old (430 Cuyuna) MX (kinda long winded)
Rory Davis
Just getting started with ULs after 20 years of thinking about
it... Took a demo flight with Ronnie at Mississippi Light
Aircraft a couple of weeks ago and decided to go for it. Talked
to Paul of M-Squared, too. Let me tell ya, those M-Squared planes
are built like tanks. A bit pricey for my taste, but I was
impressed. The experience was a total blast.
Now to find a BFI less than 2.5 hours driving distance of
Slidell, LA... several of my chums and I would be willing to take
group instruction if a good BFI were willing to spend a few days
in town over a few weekends. Otherwise, we'll either go over to
MSLA, or across Lake Ponchartrain and visit Bever at Air-Tech in
Reserve.
Made the decision, and a plan. The plan is to get proper
instruction, and obtain an inexpensive plane and get it airworthy
while we get proper training. Big carrot. And it's pretty great
to have a girlfriend who wants to fly as bad as I do.
Searched the online ads, made a 20+ hour roundtrip drive and
acquired a circa 1981 Quicksilver MX with a 430 Cuyuna, toothed
belt redrive, spoilers on the pedals. This looks like a totally
stock MX, though wing spars were replaced in 95, and the seller
claimed 2 year old sails. Don't have an engine or airframe log
but the seller said the engine had 85 hours since overhaul. The
MX was partially disassembled and stored in a garage with sails
rolled up. Hardware in some containers... It looks like all the
tubes are there (no lower tail tubes, though; it's a stock MX).
Well, I didn't expect to bolt on the wings and tail, and crowhop
down the pasture, but putting in some time and money will give us
something decent to fly once we're ready.
So, now I have an MX. Wow. I wanted one from the beginning... Now
I've owned one for 2 days.
Reading Mark Smith's web page made me realize I will definitely
have to make some modifications. Should I first restore the plane
to original condition, then do the mods?
I'm disassembling the MX a piece at a time and getting familiar
with how it all goes together, as well as taking a close look at
every component. Fortunately, the manuals were there, and I'm
studying them furiously... however, the majority of the manual
was for a weight-shift/Yamaha bird, with an addendum/inserts for
the MX. Not exactly perfect documentation... but usable, I guess.
Today, I pulled the fuel tank and engine off the root tube. Well,
it looks like I'll need a root tube... portside leading edge
spar channel has coined the root tube. And... the root looks a
bit out of true (read that BENT). Wouldn't have noticed it if I
hadn't taken the gas tank off. Looks like this plane has taken a
bit of abuse.
Engine mount grommets have a lot of cracks. Will need new rubber
grommets for the mount and the expansion chamber mount.
Expansion chamber has a light dent where the seat support
downtube pushed against it (can the dent be pulled without
damaging the expansion chamber further?) I had to disconnect the
pillow block bearing in order to take the drive shaft off the
engine. And, believe it or not, it was installed improperly... if
there had been a belt breakage, the shaft would have fallen off
or held only by the drive shaft coupler...
Speaking of toothed belts, I can't find the part # in the manual.
I'm gonna need to stock up on them, I think. Where's a good place
to get them?
Looked at the prop. Wood. Standard...? And it had an epoxy-filled
gap in the leading edge in what looks like a knot(?!) in the
laminated wood. I did get a spare prop, but it was painted over,
and I don't trust it either.
The seat support downtube shows evidence of rubbing against the
drive coupler and is slightly bent where the engine has bumped
against it. Probably came from not having the nosewires attached.
Nothing noticeable on the engine regarding this, however.
The MX has the curved axle from the weight-shift model.
On the tri-bar cross tube assembly, the triangular welded-in tabs
in the lower corners are dented aft about 1/4". The welds look
solid, however. How much is allowable? I would venture a pretty
hard nose-first landing or two. Nose struts seem to be ok,
though.
That's as far as I've gotten my first day. Tomorrow I'll
disassemble and clean the carb and see if I need to order parts
for it. Definitely need an air cleaner... the throat had a red
rag stuffed in it. I'll probably be sorting through the nuts and
bolts and seeing what I have and what kind of shape it's in.
And I'd like to take some aluminum cleaner to the engine. Engine
work comes later, while I wait for the airframe parts to show up
after I order them, probably from Mark...
It was just about dark, so I sat down in the seat and made
pbbbbbbbbbb and zooooom noises and wiggled the stick back and
forth, and dreamed of the day it will be FOR REAL...
Rory
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lelan
THIS brings back memories of 20 years ago for me.u might ask the group
about the engine application that u are using.ohh i guess i just did.
The Prairie Prince
> I'm disassembling the MX a piece at a time and getting familiar
> with how it all goes together, as well as taking a close look at
> every component.
Man, did you make the right decision! And, anyone buying a used craft can
take your advice. That is the only way to find out the condition of the
machine that will support your fragile body into the air.
Now I will give you the bad news.... I went through a similar process as
you are going through a number of years ago. I struggled for years to get
my Cuyuna 430 to run and finally after about 5 years of hassle (and 5
unscheduled landings - some resulting in bent tubes...) I traded that
thing in for a Rotax 377 and started flying on a more regular basis (and
having a lot more fun). Frankly, guys had told me to do that all along but
I was sure I could get the thing to be reliable if I just got it set up
right. Wrong! - no matter what I did with that engine and the carburation
it just was never right and it took a lot of fun out of the sport for me
for a while. I know you don't want to hear it but I would strongly suggest
you trade your way into a 377 or 447...
Also, you need to order the current (and correct) manual for your plane.
You can get them from Quicksilver or L.E.A.F. It is going to tell you WAY
more than the weight shift manual will.
Also, I can speak from personal experience about the efficacy of a few
factory mods that are available.
1. The empennage cable trianglization "stiffener" kit. It really helped
firm up the control feel of the plane.
2. The lower tail tube upgrade. It really helped firm up the whole plane -
probably the most.
3. Upgrading the wing cable bolts to AN standard. I didn't notice any
change here in the feel of the plane but I figured it was a good thing to
do.
4. A steel kingpost. Same as 3.
5. "Nose wire" tang upgrade. It makes the rigging into a two cable system
rather than a single cable looping through a thimble. I think it stays
tighter and looks to be a better design than the original.
6. The "extra cables to the landing gear" mod. This is similar to the
"nose wire" upgrade but it attaches from the landing gear up to the
bearing at the end of the power shaft. This seemed like a logical thing to
do as a "mirror" to the nose wires so as to stiffen up the frame.
Those are a few things I did to mine and it flew pretty good.
The one thing I would suggest that I didn't do (but was getting ready to
do when I sold the plane) is design some type of redundancy in the
teleflex control cable for the rudder. I had one break on me once and I
was not pleased. Luckily for me it broke while I was going through my
runup proceedure at the takeoff threshold and I did not have to try to
land it without a rudder. (I think this would be a rather tricky maneuver
to do with the only the spoilers and elevator for control.) I talked to
one other guy on the phone once who actually had one break just after
takeoff with his whole extended family watching as he proceeded into a
mild bank that ended with his wing connecting with the ground and the
attendant cartwheel action. He walked away but from both of our
experiences I have come to view teleflex control systems unfavorably
(unless they are made redundant).
Blue Skies and Tailwinds!
Brian FitzGerald
http://www.fitzvideo.com
fli...@my-deja.com
rebuilt my MX using Marks advice and was very satisfied .Everything was
just as he said ,also his prices are very reasonable.As far as the
engine if you have the talent or the resourses to get it running
properly it should be fine ,I prefer the rotax myself but I know a few
people thats all they fly and they love the cuyuna .I comes down to the
tuning and the amount of care when rebuilding .Would be wise to have it
professionally inspected .And use proper guages (egt,cht ,tach )and
monitor them often when flying .Well good luck and happy flying.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
luc...@metrowerks.com
Rory Davis <n7crNO...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:
> Reading Mark Smith's web page made me realize I will definitely
> have to make some modifications. Should I first restore the plane
> to original condition, then do the mods?
Go ahead and do the mods now. Do them until you run out of cash and
don't stop until then. Since it's already in pieces and you have to
rebuild it anyway, you may as well do the upgrades in the process. The
ones that Mark Smith has for the MX are worth it. If I'd had the money
at the time, I'd have done his big prop/engine-under-the-root-tube mod
on mine too.
> I'm disassembling the MX a piece at a time and getting familiar
> with how it all goes together, as well as taking a close look at
> every component. Fortunately, the manuals were there, and I'm
> studying them furiously... however, the majority of the manual
> was for a weight-shift/Yamaha bird, with an addendum/inserts for
> the MX. Not exactly perfect documentation... but usable, I guess.
I think Mark has all the manuals for all the MX line and can get you
copies.
> Today, I pulled the fuel tank and engine off the root tube. Well,
> it looks like I'll need a root tube... portside leading edge
> spar channel has coined the root tube. And... the root looks a
> bit out of true (read that BENT). Wouldn't have noticed it if I
> hadn't taken the gas tank off. Looks like this plane has taken a
> bit of abuse.
You should have seen my plane (MX Super, now Capt. America IV after its
rebuild last summer) when I took it down. You never saw so many
buggered holes and bent bolts in your life. That plane is now about 60%
Mark Smith parts, including the sails....
> Engine mount grommets have a lot of cracks. Will need new rubber
> grommets for the mount and the expansion chamber mount.
> Expansion chamber has a light dent where the seat support
> downtube pushed against it (can the dent be pulled without
> damaging the expansion chamber further?) I had to disconnect the
Probably not, but, if the rest of the muffler is not cracked or
fatigued, it might still be useable. Most important thing is cracks in
the muffler - the most frequent trouble spots on the Rotax mufflers are
where the exhaust pipe from the motor is welded to the can. A crack
forms around this attach point and has to be rewelded every so often.
Not sure about the Cayuna, though.
Replace the grommets for sure...
> pillow block bearing in order to take the drive shaft off the
> engine. And, believe it or not, it was installed improperly... if
> there had been a belt breakage, the shaft would have fallen off
> or held only by the drive shaft coupler...
I assume yours has the hard drive shaft coupler on it? Be sure and
replace this with the flex coupler and drive shaft. This is very
important - it eliminates all kinds of breakage and problems.
> Speaking of toothed belts, I can't find the part # in the manual.
> I'm gonna need to stock up on them, I think. Where's a good place
> to get them?
You might be better off replacing the cog belt system with the newer V-
belt setup.
> The MX has the curved axle from the weight-shift model.
Replace this with the straight MX axle. Mark has them in stock.
> On the tri-bar cross tube assembly, the triangular welded-in tabs
> in the lower corners are dented aft about 1/4". The welds look
> solid, however. How much is allowable? I would venture a pretty
> hard nose-first landing or two. Nose struts seem to be ok,
> though.
The critical dimension on the tribar cross-tube is the distance between
the wing attach shackle bolt holes. Measure the distance - it should be
40 1/4". Replace the bar if it's spread from this by 1/4" or more since
that indicates the bar has been bent. My old one was spread only 1/4"
making the outboard wing wires noticeably looser (I didn't catch this
during the rebuild and just did the replacement a month or two ago),
this got rid of the loose outboard wire syndrome.
Mark has an upgrade to this bar that uses bigger diameter tubing for
the cross member, which considerably strengthens it.
Of course, replace it anyway if there's any other visible damage or
corrosion. It sounds like it should be replaced due to the tweaked
plates anyway....
> That's as far as I've gotten my first day. Tomorrow I'll
> disassemble and clean the carb and see if I need to order parts
> for it. Definitely need an air cleaner... the throat had a red
> rag stuffed in it. I'll probably be sorting through the nuts and
> bolts and seeing what I have and what kind of shape it's in.
Don't skimp on bolts. Replace any bolt that's been tweaked in the
slightest, or if the plating has been sheared off.
Use ONLY AN hardware (except for the forward tube connector-to-LE spar
attach bolts, those are grade 5). No hardware store bolts! ;)
> And I'd like to take some aluminum cleaner to the engine. Engine
> work comes later, while I wait for the airframe parts to show up
> after I order them, probably from Mark...
Mark supported me meticulously during the rebuild of my plane last
summer. If he doesn't have it, he can make it. And if you don't know
what it is, he does and can tell you how to assemble it, disassemble
it, fix it, modify it, when it was made and what was wrong with it ;)
Have fun and good luck. Email me if I can help, my plane is a Super and
has some differences, but I learnt a fair bit of stuff during its
rebuild that might help you with your MX.
Mark is the main authority on Quicks, though.
Lucien S.
PP-ASEL.
Captain America IV.
> It was just about dark, so I sat down in the seat and made
> pbbbbbbbbbb and zooooom noises and wiggled the stick back and
> forth, and dreamed of the day it will be FOR REAL...
>
> Rory
>
> * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion
Network *
> The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet -
Free!
>
>
Rory Davis
The MX does have the two separate nosewires/tang arrangment. I
will end up replacing the wire set anyway, eventually.
The kingpost is steel, however it uses the cast shackles that
should (WILL) be replaced.
I'll have to sit down and add up the costs of the most important
modifications to do, and prioritize... I'd like to do as many of
them as feasible but (like most of us) don't have an infinite
bank account. I'd like to have a little bit left over to pay for
lessons... ;)
As far as the engine goes, I'll stick with the 430 Cuyuna for
now. When I get to that part, you will be getting more questions,
that's for sure. If the Cuyuna does end up getting replaced with
a Rotax with a gear drive, what will be needed to be changed to
compensate for the different CG, especially if a 477 or 503 is
what I end up with? I assume the engine will be needed to be
moved aft.
Flex coupling and v-belt drive are something I have been
considering. How much can I expect to pay? Any source of
good/used?
Also, wonder what problems there are with top-mounting the
engine, as I have a long torso and am not particularly excited
about banging my head against the fan housing. And, being tall,
engine work up there is just a matter of using a stepladder.
Anybody ever thought about an engine fairing for a top-mount
pusher?
I'll be getting in touch with Mark soon. Sounds like he's the man
to talk to...
Thanks
Bogie
get another one.
I, personally, have both Cuyuna and Rotax engines. The Rotax does have
better cooling, thus is more reliable when improperly jetted. However, the
Cuyuna 430R is a good engine if you are willing to allow it to run a little
rich and learn it's quirks. I flew one for 15 years without any major
problems. Jet it just a little rich for cooling, she will "load up" during
idle - learn to apply power from idle slowly (she will quit if you rush it)
use the right expansion chamber, never use full power for more than one
minute, watch the temps., and talk to her real nice, she will give good
service if she likes you. If you aren't willing to pay that much attention
to it, GET ANOTHER ENGINE.
The Prairie Prince <bf...@southwind.net> wrote in message
news:bfitz-28050...@wks-92-136-82.kscable.com...
>
> > I'm disassembling the MX a piece at a time and getting familiar
> > with how it all goes together, as well as taking a close look at
> > every component.
>
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Bogie
rich and learn it's quirks. I flew one for 15 years without any major
problems. Jet it just a little rich for cooling, she will "load up" during
idle - learn to apply power from idle slowly (she will quit if you rush it)
more than one
minute, watch the temps., and talk to her real nice, she will give good
service if she likes you. If you aren't willing to pay that much attention
Rory Davis <n7crNO...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:188c8de0...@usw-ex0105-040.remarq.com...
> Rory
>
>
> * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network
*
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>
Rory Davis
when I get to the engine.
To continue the saga:
I tore down the airframe down to every nut and bolt today. Didn't
take long, about 2 hours. Hardest part was getting the prop
shaft bearing assembly out of the root tube. Once I got the shaft
clear of the bearing (resting inside the root, since I couldn't
get it out because of the bend at the kingpost) I was able to get
the bolts out. I then used one of the main axle downtubes to
force the shaft back through the bearing, and with a lot of
yanking and liberal application of WD-40 got the assembly out.
Rear bearing is shot, it would have probably started smoking if
I'd run the engine up. Front bearing runs free, but I'll replace
it anyway.
I talked on the phone today with a local MX owner, he told me a
horror story about another guy whose prop shaft failed on him. It
was the type with the aluminum core and steel outer portion. He
told me to replace mine, if it has one, with a solid steel shaft.
Well, mine has one. Ack. And the section near the rear bearing
has a lot of evidence of corrosion, a bit chewed-up looking.
He also mentioned having problems with his v-belt system,
something to do with aramid fiber instead of nylon, in the newer
belts which abrades the aluminum. He had a custom set of pullies
machined out of steel, works much better for him than aluminum.
I'm considering keeping the cog belt system for now, only adding
a flex coupling instead of the solid shaft. Less worries about
belt tension, but will have to replace the belt more often.
Well, at least now i'll have another plane to compare mine with
as I work on it.
Steel tubing:
What a mess. Hidden under the foot pedals was a nice skew in the
port side (left) nose strut. The right one was better. Main axle
had been replaced with an aluminum axle on the port side, too.
The starboard side has a steel axle, and the bearings came off
easily from the shaft on the steel axle. I still haven't gotten
the bearings off the aluminum shaft, saving it for later...
Those two things, along with the root tube damage I mentioned in
a previous post, tell me this plane took a REAL HARD knock on the
port side. The seller said "it has never been crashed"...
I measured the distance between the wing wire mounting holes on
the lower tri-bar assembly, as Lucien suggested. 41-1/8"! I also
noticed when I pulled the downtubes out of their sockets, that
both were bent a bit, right a the socket. Odd how the securing
holes in the downtubes on the lower end were less than 5/16" from
the end, and the single hole had gone to the end of the tube. How
did this plane stay together? Rust?
A lot of rust under the throttle sleeve, and in the sockets too.
And I poured 1/2 cup of powdered rust out of the tubes...
Aluminum tubing: you probably guessed it by now. Most of the
holes are elongated, tube ends crushed and worn. Axle is ok, but
would rather have the straight axle instead of the humped one.
Nuts and bolts:
Is there a kit of all AN hardware for the MX????????????????
Almost every piece had the plating worn through, many had bends.
T-handles with release buttons and rusty shafts all over the
place. Pinned AN hardware was either too long, or missing shim
washers.
A question: what is consided USABLE? Can someone tell me what to
look for to see if a used AN bolt is ok to use?
I'm gonna have to start my shopping list. OK Mark, if you've
been reading this, tell me how much it's gonna cost me... ;)
Maybe a second mortgage will cover this. (j/k)
And the seller said, "in good flying condition"... good flying
condition... my a**...
I can't wait to see what the engine is like. If both cylinders
have compression, I'll be happy.
I HAVE NOT GIVEN UP! On to the wings and tail section!
Rory Davis
<Bo...@dotstar.net> wrote:
>problems. Jet it just a little rich for cooling, she will "load
up" during
>idle - learn to apply power from idle slowly (she will quit if
you rush it)
>use the right expansion chamber, never use full
power for
>more than one
>minute, watch the temps., and talk to her real nice, she will
give good
>service if she likes you. If you aren't willing to pay that
much attention
>to her, GET ANOTHER ENGINE.
Sounds like my ex-wife...
Geoff Thistlethwaite
I've got an MX for sale in Opelousas that has all the mods and a Rotax 447.
It has less than 4 hours since a total teardown and check out, always
hangared, strobes, windshield and pod, in excellent shape!
You would have spent a lot less and been in the air sooner had you bought
this one....Opelousas is 1 hour east of Baton Rouge....
If one of your friends is interested I can send you pics via e-mail.
Geoff Thistlethwaite
I posted this ad 5/22/00:
Folks,
My hanger mate has a Quicksilver MX for sale. It is in excellent condition,
always hangered, Rotax 447, strobes, pod, black w/orange stripe, wood prop.
I have flown this plane many times and would not hesitate to buy it myself,
but I own a Kolb Firestar and since my buddy just bought a newer plane we
need to sell this one cause we can't get 3 planes in the hanger!
He is asking $4500 neg. We are located in Opelousas, La. The plane is
hangered at St. Landry Parish airport.
you can e-mail me for pictures..
Thanks
Geoff Thistlethwaite
geof...@worldnet.att.net
Geoff Thistlethwaite
we took it apart and stored it in the ceiling of the hangar....
Geoff
Geoff Thistlethwaite wrote in message
<_LkZ4.2630$pk3.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
Mark Smith
>
> Thanks for the tip on the mixture Bogie. I'll keep that in mind
> when I get to the engine.
>
> To continue the saga:
>
> I tore down the airframe down to every nut and bolt today. Didn't
> take long, about 2 hours. Hardest part was getting the prop
> shaft bearing assembly out of the root tube. Once I got the shaft
> clear of the bearing (resting inside the root, since I couldn't
> get it out because of the bend at the kingpost) I was able to get
> the bolts out. I then used one of the main axle downtubes to
> force the shaft back through the bearing,
well, I have heard this story before, a real jewel of a plane, flew it
last nught !! never crashed and always hangared,,,,,,,,,yeh, sure.
I can help with parts but best , is advice,
we need to talk first and get a feel for how well you want it to look
when done, lots of parts can be salvaged with some shortening and
redrilling, but shiny new blue tubing will make the whole thing look
like it is worth the time and effort you will have in it when done.
and the extra cost for the tubing will be paid back at resale which
everyone needs to consider when doing substantial work on an easy to
sell plane such as an MX
check my website,,, read about the MX updates, AD notices, etc, also
Johns Plane,,,,,,The building of a custom MX II,,
I would suggest a manual for the first step so we are on the same page
so to say with part numbers or descriptions.
Some parts would be better replaced for safety, some parts should be
upgraded per a new design, and the cost may be the same either
way,,,,,just depens on the parts
just a for instance, the older tension struts, cog belt era, were heavy
wall, and extra long compared to the newer ones with the three hole tang
attachment at the front. by simply sawing off the bad hole at the rear
and drilling two holes in the front, the tube cane be converted to a
good tube, except for the fading, and use the tabs for the atach at the
front.
--
Mark Smith mailto:tri...@freewwweb.com
Tri-State Kite Sales
1121 N Locust St
Mt Vernon, IN 47620
luc...@metrowerks.com
Rory Davis <n7crNO...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:
> I talked on the phone today with a local MX owner, he told me a
> horror story about another guy whose prop shaft failed on him. It
> was the type with the aluminum core and steel outer portion. He
> told me to replace mine, if it has one, with a solid steel shaft.
> Well, mine has one. Ack. And the section near the rear bearing
> has a lot of evidence of corrosion, a bit chewed-up looking.
PMJI again, but my advice on the driveline is a bit anal, but here
goes. I would zero-time the entire thing. It sounds like you have some
root tube damage; mine did too in the form of buggered holes, but,
worse, the main bearing bracket at the rear had had the retaining bolts
overtightened, causing the bracket flanges to be bent inward, squishing
the rear portion of the root tube. There was no way, therefore, to
secure even a new bracket onto it without bending it into the squished
shape!
There was also buggered holes, prop drive shaft too long, holes in the
wrong place, etc.....
That tore it for me - I replaced the entire root tube. Mark made me a
new one, complete with new bearings and short prop drive shaft. Also
replaced new were the two pullies (heavily grooved), belts, the pillow
block bearing for the drive shaft and even the standoff bolts for the
pillow block. Of course, a new engine (503) went on as well.
Ironically, the only thing original on mine is the driveshaft and
coupler, which was already the upgraded flex coupler w/ new rubber dogs.
I strongly believe the best solution on the belt drive is to replace
all the worn or buggered crap with new and keep after it best as you
can. I have 85 hours on mine now with no problems except a minor
problem with the bearing up in the RT, more or less solved by
tightening a retaining bolt and that's it.
>
> Those two things, along with the root tube damage I mentioned in
> a previous post, tell me this plane took a REAL HARD knock on the
> port side. The seller said "it has never been crashed"...
Sounds like my plane..... In my case, I didn't find out until right
before I'd started the rebuild on mine that it'd been:
1) tumped over at a flyin by a dust devil
2) flown into fences several times
3) involved in numerous hard landings on the nose and just in general.
And just a couple weeks ago I found out that it'd been:
3) flown into HIGH TENSION ELECTRIC WIRES! The guy survived - In fact,
I met him last week and he told me how much fun he'd had in the plane,
chortling about this particular incident as he related it to me. There
is still a small burn mark on the port leading edge spar from this
particular incident. He can't wait to get back into the air again.
Braver than me.....
All that damage history was wiped out during the rebuild, and man was
there a lot of it......
> I measured the distance between the wing wire mounting holes on
> the lower tri-bar assembly, as Lucien suggested. 41-1/8"! I also
This was probably due to the hard landings. I'm very surprised that
mine was spread only 1/4", but I've heard of bars being spread to
dimensions like yours.
Replace this with Mark's 1 1/8" diameter tubing bar. I have one on CA
IV now and it's considerably stronger than the stock one. You may need
tribar downtubes also.
> Is there a kit of all AN hardware for the MX????????????????
Unfortunately, no, there isn't a standard kit, but the method I finally
developed (partly at Mark's suggestion) was to go through each page of
the manual and inventory the bolts and other stuff I wanted to replace.
Then, I'd order the lot in one big order. I only reused a few bolts on
the plane; the vast majority were replaced by just inventorying them
and ordering replacements.
> Almost every piece had the plating worn through, many had bends.
> T-handles with release buttons and rusty shafts all over the
> place. Pinned AN hardware was either too long, or missing shim
> washers.
Yeah, this is very common on used quicks. Mark will tell you this, but
replace all the T-handles with bolts and nylocs (use castle nuts/safety
rings, though, on things that bolt together moveable surfaces, like the
stick to stick-attach tube and so on).
Don't use metal stop nuts on anything unless it's a high temperature
application, like muffler mounting bolts. These stop nuts strip the
plating off the threads as they're driven onto the bolt, leading to
eventual corrosion on the exposed end (Mark related this info to me).
There was some scary rust on bolts on my plane before the rebuild
related to this. Anyway, the nylocs have a very high run-on torque and
will hold very well. I've never seen one work loose.
> A question: what is consided USABLE? Can someone tell me what to
> look for to see if a used AN bolt is ok to use?
Look for stripped plating. My personal recommendation is to replace
bolts where the cadmium gold-like plating is worn off, exposing the
shiny silver metal. A lot of the bolts will get like this anyway,
though. Of course, if it's bent, replace it.
Replace any weight or stress-bearing bolt _regardless of its
appearance_. AN bolts are cheap and you want known-good bolts in all
those places. Use AN nylocs throughout and don't reuse any even once on
critical places (IMO, ok to reuse once on a non-critical joint).
Order nylocs and AN washers by the bucketfull ;)
> I'm gonna have to start my shopping list. OK Mark, if you've
> been reading this, tell me how much it's gonna cost me... ;)
> Maybe a second mortgage will cover this. (j/k)
Just FWIW, I spent about 6.5 to 7 grand on the rebuild of my plane,
including other stuff since the rebuild that I missed (don't ask ;)).
2500 of that was the engine and 1300 was for the sails. So, it really
wasn't that horrendous, especially if the motor had been serviceable,
it would have been a fairly cheap job.
> And the seller said, "in good flying condition"... good flying
> condition... my a**...
>
> I can't wait to see what the engine is like. If both cylinders
> have compression, I'll be happy.
>
> I HAVE NOT GIVEN UP! On to the wings and tail section!
Make sure you have Mark make your sails if you replace them (I strongly
recommend this). He made a magnificent set of them for my plane.... I
have pics of it if you want me to send some to you...
Lucien S.
PP-ASEL.
Captain America IV.
Rory Davis
Finally found a local ASC BFI, Mike, over at Stennis
International. Only a 40 minute drive from Slidell... and he
seems to be a competent, relaxed and fun to fly with guy. He
trains in a couple of 2 place Challengers, one with clipped
wings, one without. It's great to train with someone who has as
much fun flying as Mike does.
There is also another BFI at the same location, (another Mike)
who is the trike guy.
I found flying the Challenger II is a bit different from a
Quicksilver type, it flies much more like a larger plane, i.e.
turn coordination with rudder/ailerons vs nearly automatically
coordinated turns with rudder only on the Quick.
I wonder how hard it's going to be to make the transition to an
MX with rudder on the stick?
Gotta be candid here... was terrified during the takeoff and
climb... but I relaxed after we leveled off and had a blast. You
would not believe what was going through my mind... ROFL... I
figure after another couple of lessons I'll quit getting that
terror (I hope...).
As for the MX, i've been cataloging parts from the manual Mark
sent. I have an Excel spreadsheet of part #'s referencing each
page of the MX manual. I'll be sending tubes off to Mark for
modification and a big order very soon.
More to come
luc...@metrowerks.com
Rory Davis <n7crNO...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:
> I wonder how hard it's going to be to make the transition to an
> MX with rudder on the stick?
I'm not familiar with flying the Challenger, but the bigger issue will
be 2-axis vs 3-axis - i.e., learning 3-axis, and then having to
transition to 2-axis. So, what'd be a good idea I think, would be to
convert your MX to 3-axis. I.e., rudder on the pedals (where it's
supposed to be ;) ;)), and left/right stick operating ailerons. Mark's
got all the stuff for this.
You'll find the plane to be a lot more controllable as well.
> Gotta be candid here... was terrified during the takeoff and
> climb... but I relaxed after we leveled off and had a blast. You
> would not believe what was going through my mind... ROFL... I
> figure after another couple of lessons I'll quit getting that
> terror (I hope...).
Yep. T/O and landing is a real eye-opener for even GA pilots the first
couple times you experience it. I had about 40 hours in GA planes when
I took my first UL lesson and there was simply no comparison.
Good thing is, you'll never get over the thrill - I've got 150 hours
total in my Super now, with almost 1000 t/o's and landings and I still
get a thrill every time I leave the ground, or come in for a landing.
Anyway, just another .02. Enjoy,
Mark Smith
>
> Hi all... Here's an update.
>
> Finally found a local ASC BFI, Mike, over at Stennis
> International. Only a 40 minute drive from Slidell... and he
> seems to be a competent, relaxed and fun to fly with guy. He
> trains in a couple of 2 place Challengers, one with clipped
> wings, one without. It's great to train with someone who has as
> Rory
Glad to hear you are also taking lessons,,,,,,,,I like to sell parts but
would prefer they be improvements, not crash damage related repairs.....
BTW, a local took lessons in a Flight Star in preparation for his new to
him MX II. After two hours, he was fast taxiing the MX II when it lifted
off, you saw that coming, and he landed in a tree.
Just heresay but he is A OK,, the wing took a hit though.
bet the spoilers were active all the way to the tree.
best to train with someone who will help with the transition to your
plane, and also, don't taxi until you are ready to go. Let someone else
check the plane with a short hop, and then go for it,,
taxiing just bends parts,,,,,!!!!!!!
Rory Davis
>Glad to hear you are also taking lessons,,,,,,,,I like to sell
parts but
>would prefer they be improvements, not crash damage related
repairs.....
Well, I think on my MX, most of them already ARE crash damage
related repairs :)
>best to train with someone who will help with the transition to
your
>plane, and also, don't taxi until you are ready to go. Let
someone else
>check the plane with a short hop, and then go for it,,
I got pretty lucky regarding that. One of the guys in the area is
a Quick owner, 377 Rotax he wants to sell to me for for $2600 and
I think I may buy it after I see him fly it (and I'll go over it
thoroughly b4 writing the check... not making same mistake
twice). I'll ask him to check out my MX first. He has a lapsed
BFI but he is pretty decent about sharing knowledge.
>taxiing just bends parts,,,,,!!!!!!!
I'll keep that in mind... How many hours should I solo in the
Challenger before attempting the MX?
Rory
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
Rory Davis
>I'm not familiar with flying the Challenger, but the bigger
issue will
>be 2-axis vs 3-axis - i.e., learning 3-axis, and then having to
>transition to 2-axis. So, what'd be a good idea I think, would
be to
>convert your MX to 3-axis. I.e., rudder on the pedals (where
it's
>supposed to be ;) ;)), and left/right stick operating ailerons.
Mark's
>got all the stuff for this.
>
>You'll find the plane to be a lot more controllable as well.
Adding ailerons to an MX? Hmm. Mark, is that advisable or
practical?
If I keep the spoilers, with the way the MX is supposed to handle
using rudder only, keeping the rudder on the stick would be most
similar to aileron control, wouldn't it? As long as I remember to
not use the pedals for yaw control and compensate for slip with
back pressure on the stick (assuming the "stock" wires and
dihedral) wouldn't that be the way it should be?
When I flew in the M-2 Sprint 1200 last month at MSLA, Ronnie
told me to just steer with the rudder. Not much aileron was
really needed. He showed me coordinated turns with the stick at
neutral aileron, with a little back pressure (keep the string
in the middle... LOL).
So, I guess the question is, if I move the rudder control to the
pedals and spoilers to the stick, what do I gain?
Mark Smith
>
> I got pretty lucky regarding that. One of the guys in the area is
> a Quick owner, 377 Rotax he wants to sell to me for for $2600 and
> I think I may buy it after I see him fly it (and I'll go over it
> thoroughly b4 writing the check... not making same mistake
> twice). I'll ask him to check out my MX first. He has a lapsed
> BFI but he is pretty decent about sharing knowledge.
>
> >taxiing just bends parts,,,,,!!!!!!!
>
> I'll keep that in mind... How many hours should I solo in the
> Challenger before attempting the MX?
>
> Rory
Smart assed answer,,,,,,,,,,none
The challenger will get you used to the sky, the approaches, etc, and
related items such as fuel burns, airspeed, etc, but getting enough
hours to get 'good' in the CH may ultimately hurt in the quick, but only
in some areas.
I tell my students that they will get kicked out of the twoplace before
they get really good, since I don't need the competition training, and
they need to learn their own plane before type rated habits develope....
Mark Smith
> Adding ailerons to an MX? Hmm. Mark, is that advisable or
> practical?
>
> If I keep the spoilers, with the way the MX is supposed to handle
> using rudder only, keeping the rudder on the stick would be most
> similar to aileron control, wouldn't it? As long as I remember to
> not use the pedals for yaw control and compensate for slip with
> back pressure on the stick (assuming the "stock" wires and
> dihedral) wouldn't that be the way it should be?
>
> When I flew in the M-2 Sprint 1200 last month at MSLA, Ronnie
> told me to just steer with the rudder. Not much aileron was
> really needed. He showed me coordinated turns with the stick at
> neutral aileron, with a little back pressure (keep the string
> in the middle... LOL).
>
> So, I guess the question is, if I move the rudder control to the
> pedals and spoilers to the stick, what do I gain?
>
> Rory
>
> Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
> Up to 100 minutes free!
> http://www.keen.com
I get fifty calls a year for this conversion system, and mostly from
pilots who are starting into uls and HAVE NOT flown the plane yet.
They seem almost afraid it won't 'work right' compared to the Cessna
they took lessons in.
After a demo in my two seat quicklone, they usually are very satisfied
that the plane will habdle almost anything with just rudder and
elevator, just that it seems 'normal' to have rudder on the pedals.
Most also agree that after leaving the ground, their feet are on the
floor and not on the pedals much at all..
I also point out that with even minimal dihedral, the rudder is the
dominant turning control, and the adverse yaw requires you lead with
rudder in either case.
So why not leave the dominat control on the better accessible control
stick.
I must admit though, that the planes are easier to control with the
rudder on the pedals, since feet are stronger, and more suited to
pushing than your arm is to move side to side at your waist,,,,,,
and then nothing on the stick side to side doesn't make sense either,
'bout like this sentence,,,
and the discussion continues,,,,,,,,,mark
luc...@metrowerks.com
Rory Davis <n7crNO...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:
> luc...@metrowerks.com wrote:
> If I keep the spoilers, with the way the MX is supposed to handle
> using rudder only, keeping the rudder on the stick would be most
> similar to aileron control, wouldn't it? As long as I remember to
> not use the pedals for yaw control and compensate for slip with
> back pressure on the stick (assuming the "stock" wires and
> dihedral) wouldn't that be the way it should be?
Actually, this is how many pilots fly 3-axis general aviation
aircraft! ;) Having never learnt to use the rudder very well, the feet
remain planted firmly on the floor, and the plane is drivin through
turns using only the yoke/stick like a car.
Highly incorrect and improper in most GA planes (except the Ercoupe and
I think a couple others that aren't 3-axis), but perfectly proper and
correct in a 2-axis quick (according to friends who fly 2-axis MX's).
IMO, it'll depend on what you're comfortable with and your preferences
as far as what control is on what, the stick or the pedals. In the case
of the MX, there's so much rudder/aileron coupling (i.e. tendency to
roll when yawed), the behavior of the rudder over a set of ailerons
will be almost indistinguishable, except for a little more tendency to
yaw when turning rudder-only. In that case, why not just leave the
rudder on the stick - the plane'll behave as if the "ailerons" are
being actuated anyway ;).
My plane has half the dihedral of the regular MX, so it's sort of
inbetween a GA plane and an MX as far as how the rudder and ailerons
behave in turns. It has quite a bit less rudder coupling than an MX, so
somewhat more aileron input is required to make a clean turn (like a GA
plane). However, it still does exhibit a lot more coupling than the few
GA designs I've flown and therefore can be effectively (but a little
sloppily) flown around totally with the pedals and neutral left/right
stick (BTW, you can fly a C150 rudder-only, but it's ugly and, while
fabulous fun for the pilot, will probably cost any passengers their
lunch).
In fact, this is how I fly CA IV at cruise, due to the very very high
aileron pressures at those lightspeeds. Much easier to simply turn with
the pedals and not break my arm trying to haul the stick over. In the
pattern at pattern speeds, though, I revert to the usual coordinated
aileron/rudder as the aileron pressures are relaxed somewhat at those
speeds.
> When I flew in the M-2 Sprint 1200 last month at MSLA, Ronnie
> told me to just steer with the rudder. Not much aileron was
> really needed. He showed me coordinated turns with the stick at
> neutral aileron, with a little back pressure (keep the string
> in the middle... LOL).
I learnt ultralights in the BFI's sprint II, with the high dihedral and
single-surface wing. It flies somewhat better rudder-only than my plane
(the ailerons were very ineffective), so it is typically flown
primarily with the feet. Turns are still fairly well coordinated due to
the high degree of coupling.
> So, I guess the question is, if I move the rudder control to the
> pedals and spoilers to the stick, what do I gain?
If it were me, I'd put a full aileron kit on the wings and attach those
to the stick (and rudder on pedals of course). But that's just what I'm
used to, since I started out in 3-axis GA planes.
Mark probably has some better suggestions on this, though.
Rory Davis
I have gotten so disgusted with the things I found with the MX
airframe, I'm looking at other planes LOL.
This will have to do for spare parts... hard lesson learned.
At least I'll have a spare engine, tires, a seat, and wing spars.
1. DO NOT DRIVE 600 miles to buy a plane that is not flying!
2. Check locals first! ROFL!
Rory
-----------------------------------------------------------
Mark Smith
>
> Hello all again,
>
> I have gotten so disgusted with the things I found with the MX
> airframe, I'm looking at other planes LOL.
>
> This will have to do for spare parts... hard lesson learned.
> At least I'll have a spare engine, tires, a seat, and wing spars.
>
> 1. DO NOT DRIVE 600 miles to buy a plane that is not flying!
> 2. Check locals first! ROFL!
>
> Rory
If you are buying a ul and it is not flying for ANY reason other than
the death of the owner, knock a grand off the price and start the
bidding from there down,,,
also, what is so bad it can't be fixed with the MX, sounds like you need
to pursue other people and places to buy stuff,,,I might have a
suggestion but it would be too commercial for here,,,!!
how about listing your present problems,,that is what this list is for
BTW,,, and I'll bet the answer to any question you could possibly ask is
right here,,
--
Mark Smith mailto:tri...@evansville.net
Rory Davis
>If you are buying a ul and it is not flying for ANY reason other
than
>the death of the owner, knock a grand off the price and start
the
>bidding from there down,,,
>
>also, what is so bad it can't be fixed with the MX, sounds like
you need
>to pursue other people and places to buy stuff,,,I might have a
>suggestion but it would be too commercial for here,,,!!
You're right. I just need a little encouragement... LOL
I figure $2500 is about as much as I want to put into it for the
time being, unless somebody wants to give me a 447 for peanuts...
The cuyuna will have to do unless I run into problems getting it
to run.
>how about listing your present problems,,that is what this list
is for
>BTW,,, and I'll bet the answer to any question you could
possibly ask is
>right here,,
There are too many "bad" things to replace to list here, so I'll
try to summarize what I have to work with, and maybe you can help
me deal with what needs replaced:
Wheels and tires are usable.
Main axle is ok.
LE and TE spars are ok.
Ribs are ok, need new tips on a few.
Wing compression struts are mismatched - half are large diameter,
other half are small diameter tubing.
Channel brackets seem to be ok.
Seat and stick assembly won't need much work except new throttle
assembly.
Elevator and rudder (except rudder compression strut you
mentioned that needs to be sent for modification)
Wires and kingpost are usable.
Drive shaft ok. Pullies are usable.
Fuel tank ok except needs new tank seals
Elevator link tubing is ok
Now, general things that need replaced:
Need new sails, my GF will decide the colors (LOL) Qualifier
sails and clipped wings...
Root tube assembly, including prop shaft
Flex coupler
I want shiny blue tubing everywhere!
Rudder teleflex replaced
ALL new AN and Grade 5 hardware - and get rid of the PIP pins!
Saddles and nylon washers
engine and muffler bushings
Big man bar and downtubes
new Tri-bar cross tube
new seat support downtube w/hardware for flex coupler offset
new throttle assembly and cable
new seatcover
new fuel and impulse tubing
Things I want to add:
Lower tail support tubes
Tapered stab
Stab reinforcement kit
I'll send you an email with my order.... ROFL! If I can figure
out how to itemize all the parts... The main discouragement is
there is too much to list...
Mark Smith
I have had less to work with than that and the plane came out OK.
BTW, the compression struts were three differents sizes and all are
acceptable.
The 1 inch unsleeved go at the tip. the oversleeved ones for the wire
locations and the 1 1/4 diameter ones on the latest MX models can go
anywhere,,
The list you gave fits about half the MXs I deal with. Most are
neglected, stored, etc, but twhen you are done, it will be your color,
your size, and you will have enough new stuff, it will fly many hours
before needing more new stuff,,,,