T-Gull 2000 VS Titan-I ????

Rick Littlefield

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Dec 29, 2001, 11:26:51 AM12/29/01

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What are the real differences between these two birds with respect to
construction and flight characteristics--and which is the better aircraft for
the money?

Rick

JSoar

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Dec 30, 2001, 10:03:14 AM12/30/01

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k1...@aol.com (Rick Littlefield) wrote in message news:<20011229112651...@mb-cp.aol.com>...

The Gull 2000 is sleeker and much lighter. Mark B., the designer, had
a Gull 2000 at Oshkosh that weighed 238 pounds, complete with doors,
electric start and 3 blade prop. It has a Vne of 120 mph and can
cruise at 85 mph with a 30 hp engine. It can fly at a fuel burn rate
of 2.2 gph. It is very roomy inside, sits empty on it's nose wheel,
has a full fiberglass/lexan pod. It can be flown with Rotax 503, etc.
It was rated as "the best" in reviews in some popular publications.

The Gull 2000 is a newer design which Titan hasn't copied yet. The
Titan is a blatant, illicit copy of the older Thunder Gull 遷' design.
Titan put on a goofy looking pointed nose (IMHO) to try to disguise
it, which created aerodynamic problems and so they put a tail strake
on it to try to correct it. The Titan "103 legal" version has a Vne of
105 mph, so they have apparently reduced it's strength to make the
weight.
---
Jerry

Doug

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Dec 30, 2001, 10:27:42 AM12/30/01

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Could anyone post a url for the Gull 2000, It sounds very interresting.
Doug.

Rick Littlefield

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Dec 30, 2001, 11:00:24 AM12/30/01

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Thanks, Jerry, I wondered about the similarities. It's been difficult getting
much detailed information on the 2000 directly from the T-Gull people via
E-mail or the web site (try www.thundergull.com Doug). I'd love to write an
article on the Gull 2000 myself, but I'm in NH which is "fur piece" from the
factory.

Rick

Tony Spicer

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Dec 30, 2001, 11:25:33 AM12/30/01

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Someone recently started a Thundergull discussion group, which might be
a good place to get some questions answered.
Http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/thundergull

Tony

Gary

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Dec 30, 2001, 11:44:14 AM12/30/01

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See Ultraflight Magazine 10/2000, and Experimenter Magazine, 11/2000 issues.

________
Gary

"Rick Littlefield" <k1...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011230110024...@mb-fs.aol.com...

JohnB

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Dec 31, 2001, 1:19:17 AM12/31/01

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>The Gull 2000 is a newer design which Titan hasn't copied yet. The

>Titan is a blatant, illicit copy of the older Thunder Gull ‘J' design.

>Titan put on a goofy looking pointed nose (IMHO) to try to disguise
>it, which created aerodynamic problems and so they put a tail strake
>on it to try to correct it. The Titan "103 legal" version has a Vne of
>105 mph, so they have apparently reduced it's strength to make the
>weight.

Wow, I knew the T-Gull and Titan were quite similar, but now that I look
closer, you're right! The Titan appears to be a carbon copy of the Gull; the
wing structure, tail surfaces, fuselage/cabin area... damn near identical. And
I agree about the pointy nose on the Titan, looks kinda silly.

Skyking

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Dec 31, 2001, 4:28:44 AM12/31/01

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> on it to try to correct it. The Titan "103 legal" version has a Vne of
> 105 mph, so they have apparently reduced it's strength to make the
> weight.
> ---
> Jerry

Isn't the speed too much for "legal 103"?

Skyking

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Dec 31, 2001, 4:31:17 AM12/31/01

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The Titan is a copy, they were partners and split up.
The 'producer' is Titan and the designer is Thunder Gull.
"JohnB" <jb...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20011231011917...@mb-fw.aol.com...

Robert Perry

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Jan 1, 2002, 8:52:52 PM1/1/02

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Pilot Report: Earthstar Aircraft, Thunder Gull Odyssey
"You'll find the small country road about two miles off the main highway,
down that road a couple of miles past the railroad tracks make a left turn
and then go twelve miles to the orange mailbox, right up the dirt road,
through the opening in the barbed wire fence, and up to the top of the
hill.you'll see the hanger." Those were the directions that Mark, design
Beierle of the Thunder Gull series of sport and ultralight aircraft gave me
to get up to his ranch near Santa Margarita, California for a test flight of
the Odyssey two-seat sport trainer he builds through his company Earthstar
Aircraft.
Had I known that I would be traveling up that mile of dirt road my son Jacob
and I would have driven something other than my low-slung sports car. Up the
road I passed several areas of old cars and farm outbuildings common to the
oak forests and hills of the central California coast. Upon reaching the
crest of the hill, a large barn type building sat next to a few trailers, a
non-operative tractor, other smaller outbuildings, and a trail/road/runway
of about 10 feet in width.
Parking next to the barn, we discovered that the directions were in fact
accurate when we caught our first glimpse of a pretty yellow Thunder Gull J
single seat ultralight. A few minutes later Mark Beierle, designer of the
aircraft introduced himself and we began discussing the subject of sport
aircraft and flying in general.
My purpose that day was to test fly the two seat Odyssey. Having been
sidelined from flying GA aircraft after a heart attack a couple of years
ago; my interest is turning to these sport aircraft as a viable alternative
to the minimalist ultralights versus not flying at all. Keeping abreast of
the developments relative to the notice to proposed rule making (NPRM)
involving the new designation of "sport pilot" and "sport aircraft" I
narrowed the field of possible contenders to a few "sport" type airplanes;
the two top contenders, the Titan Tornado, and the Thunder Gull Odyssey.
I first had an opportunity to see the Titan at an EAA meeting at Lompoc,
California. Both a single seater and a two-seat model were there and the
two-seat model was being offered for sale at that time. As this was a little
early in my search I didn't have a chance to fly the Titan but was impressed
with the looks and workmanship of the aircraft. The Titan Tornado is a true
tandem seater (one seat directly behind the pilot seat) and the front
cockpit seat is very snug for someone of my size (6'2"/235 lbs.). The
Thunder Gull Odyssey however is what I'd guess you'd call modified
tandem/side-by-side. The passenger seat (or instructor) is offset to the
right and back about a foot from the front right pilot seat. This
arrangement allows easy communication and line of sight between the pilot
and passenger as well as sufficient hip, shoulder, and headroom, to make
traveling a comfortable proposition in the Odyssey. There is even enough
room for a cup holder for those of you with SUV's and an ever-present
insulated coffee mug.
Mark and I discussed the shared histories of the Thunder Gull series of
aircraft and the Titan's with Mark pointing out the obvious advantages of
the larger cockpit. Walking across Mark's property on the top of the hill on
the California central coast, Mark described another Thunder Gull single
seater owned by a local man, and I found the remains of another very odd
attempt at a flying machine with a foam and fiberglass "crash cocoon"
attached where the test pilot (read dummy) would be encased during the
attempt at powered flight.
Out of a small three-sided hanger Mark pulled out the Odyssey two-seater. My
inspection of the aircraft showed an apparent attention to detail as well as
Mark's reasoned approach to this minimalist airplane. Entering the cockpit
was easy as Mark provided doors on both sides of the fuselage. The single
control stick has an "M" shaped member with a handgrip on each end of the
"M". This dual control was reminiscent of the Robinson series of helicopters
and reminded me of some of the old "throw over" yokes as found on older
Beechcraft Bonanza's. At any rate the placement of the yoke and throttle
allowed easy control of the aircraft from either seat, an important point
considering that the only legitimate purpose for the aircraft is as a
trainer.
Mark's "airport" is little more than a 10-12 foot wide trail carved into the
side of a hill. At the top of the hill there is a turn around leading to the
first portion of the hill with about a 7% grade! As Mark said, "Just add
full power, rotate at 50, and fly away." The downhill take off didn't take
much longer than the last sentence takes to say. The 62 horse power HKS
engine powering a French made hi-tech prop got us up to 50 mph in less than
200 feet and rotation and climb out went easily. One notch of flaps are used
for the take off and those were retracted shortly after climb was
established and there were no obstacles left to clear (easy when you're
taking off from the top of a hill!).
Using 60mph for climb we indicated greater than 500fpm through 3000ft msl on
a warm summer day in California. Leveling at about 4000 feet I put the
aircraft through the basic maneuvers: Power off/on clean/dirty stall series,
accelerated stalls, chandelles, lazy and energetic eight's, and even some
general gross manhandling to try to provoke a nasty response from this
little airplane. The most I was able to coax out of the wing was a bit of
stall burble with power off/full flaps and a bit of yanking on the stick.
With full power with the stick held full back the aircraft climbs at 300fpm
at about 42mph indicated. Full flaps and power off with the stick held full
aft produced a fully controllable descent at about 600fpm. Ailerons were
fully effective throughout the stalls as was the rudder thus preventing the
dropping of a wing with positive control inputs.
Leveling the aircraft for cruise produces about 96mph indicated on about 65%
power at 4000 feet on an above standard day. Without my trusty E6B I could
only guess that 100mph would work for flight planning purposes. The aircraft
flies with only fingertip pressure when trimmed. Although the irregularities
in the air this day caused the need for a bit of correction when we were
bounced about, the sensation was more of a gentle ride on an uneven road
than "bouncing around" with unsecured items being thrown about the cabin.
Perhaps if there were a bit more turbulence the ride wouldn't be as nice,
but it is apparent that even in strong turbulence the aircraft would be
fully controllable.
Returning to Mark's home field we made one pass down wind (downhill?) to
wake up my son and then set up a standard downwind, base, and final approach
flying final at about 50mph with full flaps. Touchdown zone on the side of
Mark's hill was a flat area of about 80 feet then traveling uphill towards
the take off area more than 500 feet up hill. The Odyssey flies well and
doesn't like to come down. Mark suggested slipping so I crossed controlled
the airplane sufficiently to produce a nice descent rate and kicked the skid
out about 30ft above the touchdown zone. A quick flare and short rollout
produced a landing of no more than 200 feet!
It's hard not to exit any airplane after landing with a smile on one's face.
The Odyssey did not disappoint in providing ample reason to grin. The flying
qualities are very nice either for a ham fisted student pilot, or for an
experienced graybeard with jet-a in his veins. The fit and finish are as
good as any Cessna I've seen (better than some old production aircraft) and
the performance gets the aircraft up to the point that it could be used as a
cross-country machine. Mark has flown from California to Florida on several
occasions and the Odyssey can truly cross the country in four days flying
time. Mark says that even when he was flying in rain so hard that he couldn'
t see out the windscreen the aircraft had no appreciable leaks. Although
most of us won't be flying in inclement weather in our sport aircraft, it's
nice to know that it will keep us dry if the heavens do open up.
My only suggestion for Mark would be the placement of the "Johnson Rod"
flap-operating handle. He mounted it on the roof of the cabin with a bicycle
handbrake release. A pull on the operating handle lowers the first notch of
flaps and the second notch is full flaps. I've spent many hours in Piper
Cherokee's and found that operating the flaps with a "Johnson Rod" to be
nice and positive but the mounting on the floor seemed to be more
instinctive for the pilot. I would have preferred an electric switch with
preset setting for flap positions but Mark was satisfied with the simpler
installation. All in all he's done one hell of a job in creating a very nice
flying airplane.
Now comes the long process of following the progress for the "sport pilot"
NPRM, finding help in getting the issuance of an Advanced Ultralight
Instructor Certificate based on my old Commercial Pilot license and
Certified Flight Instructor rating, finding a bit of hanger floor at my
local country airport in Santa Ynez, California, and convincing the wife
that this is just something every husband gets in the afternoon of his life.
About the Author:
Robert Perry is a 50 year old Business Manager. He has over 4,000 hours in
General Aviation aircraft ranging from ultralights to a Beechcraft King Air
over a twenty year flying career. He has held FAA Commercial, SEL MEL
Instrument Airplane ratings, with a Single Engine Flight Instructor
certificate