Common Trike Wing Glide Ratios
Frank
wings?
Also, "in-flight adjustable trim"...how does that work?? Move the
suspension point?
Thanks again,
Frank
Beechnut
"in flight trim adjust" just moves the hang point for and aft on the
keel via a jack screw and electric motor.
Barry (The Laughing Hyena)
America's First Glider Trike Pilot
Mike Marron
>"in flight trim adjust" just moves the hang point for and aft on the
>keel via a jack screw and electric motor.
Have you ever seen a wing with this type of inflight trim, Barry?
I haven't. As you know, most, if not all factory inflight trim
mechanisms on trike wings consist of adjustable wires from
the top of the kingpost to the rear of the inner battens that can be
tightened or loosened in flight so as to provide an "elevator"
effect.
-=Mike=-
Brad Blackburn
Mike Marron
> Picture of electric trim.
>http://www.trike-wings.com/electrictrim2.jpg
I've seen pictures of wings with electric trim, but have never
seen one in person. Anyone ever fly a trike with electric trim?
Regardless of how trim is adjusted, be it via moving the whole
wing back and forth electrically or via the much more common
method of adjusting the reflex bridle, either method only allows
the pilot to merely adjust the hands-off cruise speed. Maximum
speed remains constant.
-=Mike=-
Frank
Really. 8:1
Wow, that's not as much of a glide ratio as I had expected.
So you're descending 6000 feet for every 8 miles ~ 7 or 8 degree
descent angle...
How do trikes cross terrain with no suitable emergency field, like
water / rough country?
Mike Marron
>Really. 8:1
>Wow, that's not as much of a glide ratio as I had expected.
>So you're descending 6000 feet for every 8 miles ~ 7 or 8 degree
>descent angle...
It's a running joke in the ultralight business how trike and
ultralight dealers overestimate so as to sell more of their planes.
Fortunately, Barry doesn't suffer from "dealer's disease" so
his 8:1 glide ratio is indeed accurate.
In order to get you to whip out your checkbook, most dealers
lie about everything from how fast their "shitbird marque XVI"
ultralight can go to how little it weighs to how easy it is to
assemble to how far it can glide et cetera ad nauseum...
However, if you simply stand back and look at a trike and you can
easily see why trikes can't glide for shit. You've got all those tubes
and wires (not to mention human flesh) dangling out there in the
breeze hanging beneath the wing -- all of which is nothing but pure
DRAG.
Also, compared to conventional, 3-axis wings, flexwings aren't
exactly known for how effectively they produce lift. But what
flexwings lack in efficiency they simply make up for by their
sheer size.
For example, the popular AirBorne Wizard trike wing area is
189 sq. ft. but its max takeoff weight is only 884 lbs. compared to
say, a Cessna 172 which has a smaller wing area of 175 sq. ft.
yet has a max takeoff weight of 2,450 lbs.
Furthurmore, the AirBorne Wizard cruises at a blazing fast
46-52 mph and stalls at 27-33 mph whereas the Cessna 172
cruises at 140 mph and stalls at 54-58 mph.
In other words, although smaller in size, the conventional and
infinitely more efficient Cessna wing design enjoys a MUCH wider
speed range and is capable of carrying a helluva lot more weight
than the larger AirBorne Wizard trike wing.
Yet, both the AirBorne and Cessna have comparable glide ratios
of about 10:1, according to the respective manufacturers.
The bottom line is that when your glide ratio is simply the resultant
of the vector sum of net lift and net DRAG, it should be obvious
why enormously draggy trikes have a glide ratio only slightly
better than a boat anchor -- despite what some silver tongue
dealer/bullshit artist would have you believe.
>How do trikes cross terrain with no suitable emergency field, like
>water / rough country?
Like everything else in aviation, it's all about risk management.
When it comes to trikes, a handy rule of thumb is that you can
glide about one mile for every one thousand feet of altitude
(which is about a realistic 5:1 glide ratio).
You either play it safe and simply refrain from flying over
inhospitable terrain....or you take your chances but most trikers
play it super duper safe annoying the crap out of everyone else
in the process by shooting endless touch 'n goes in the traffic
pattern rarely venturing beyond a 25 nm radius of their home
airport.
The good news is that because ultralight trikes are so incredibly
slow and draggy, the odds are fairly good that you'll probably
walk away from a deadstick landing even if forced down over
inhospitable terrain in one of these "mopeds of the sky."
-=Mike=-
Beechnut
Only in pictures. I know Aerotrike has one out with this option.
As you know, most, if not all factory in-flight trim
Mechanisms on trike wings consist of adjustable wires from
the top of the kingpost to the rear of the inner battens that can be
tightened or loosened in flight so as to provide an "elevator"
effect.
Yes, that's correct. I tend to not think of those as a true trim adjust
because they really don't change the hang point, just the pitch
pressure. But, you are right, most people think of and call those an
in flight trim adj.
I have often wondered when true VG, as in variable geometry like that
found in hang gliders would be introduced. You can really change the
handling by changing the sweep and washout. VG does a lot of things at
one time. It changes the sweep, washout, span wise sail tension and in
some models the reflex in mid section.
Honestly, trike wings are years behind hang glider wings in just about
every respect. The hardware is old and dated, the wings use old style
construction methods and the designs themselves are 15 to 20 years
behind Hang gliders.
Barry
Beechnut
descent angle...
Yep!
How do trikes cross terrain with no suitable emergency field, like
water / rough country?
You are kidding me right?
Honest answer....you go for it and hope for the best. Anybody who
tells you otherwise is a liar.
Barry (The Laughing Hyena)
America's First Glider Trike Pilot.
Mike Marron
>Yes, that's correct. I tend to not think of those as a true trim adjust
>because they really don't change the hang point, just the pitch
>pressure.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the net result is the same either way.
>I have often wondered when true VG, as in variable geometry like that
>found in hang gliders would be introduced. You can really change the
>handling by changing the sweep and washout. VG does a lot of things at
>one time. It changes the sweep, washout, span wise sail tension and in
>some models the reflex in mid section.
>Honestly, trike wings are years behind hang glider wings in just about
>every respect. The hardware is old and dated, the wings use old style
>construction methods and the designs themselves are 15 to 20 years
>behind Hang gliders.
More speed is what trikes need. And speed is something that
no hangglider wing can offer trikes. The only wing that offers a
significant increase in speed is the Pegasus Quik, a 100 mph
decidedly dedicated trike wing for powered flight only. But the
Quik is not sold in the U.S. no thanks to the great American
pasttime of chasing ambulances.
-=Mike=-
Beechnut
Kind of, but not exactly. Adding reflex causes drag and you will notice
it especially in take off performance. But...trikes are such drag bag's
who cares anyway. Do an experiment and take off with full slow trim
on, and then do it again with full fast trim on. I bet the fast
position get's you off sooner.
With regard to HG technology, I agree that it wont give you speed. That
is definitely not what they are after. But...the fit and finish of some
of the HG stuff is really world class. Also, VG would allow you to have
a wing which was good and stable for XC, yet nice and lose handling
when you wanted it, like landing in gusty conditions. You might want a
quick handling touchy wing in those conditions. Having a true VG on a
trike wing would alow you to dial in the handling you like, dependent
on the conditions you were flying in.
Speed in trikes is largely limited to two things.
1 DRAG as you pointed out before.
2. The design of the flying wing itself.
To be stable, a flying wing must have washout. That washout which gives
a pitch up moment, opposes the pitch down moment resulting from thrust,
and weight position on the keel. That fight, causes you efficiency.
Kind of like when you put your flaps down and have to add power to keep
the nose up. The fastest trike wings thus have very light pitch
forces, because they have very little reflex and not much twist in the
wing. The only way around this in my opinion is to go with a more
traditional form of control. Abandon the weight shift and start using
ailerons etc.
Barry (The laughing Hyena)
Mike Marron
>>"Frank" <frank_and_ro...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>How do trikes cross terrain with no suitable emergency field, like
>>water / rough country?
>You are kidding me right?
>Honest answer....you go for it and hope for the best. Anybody who
>tells you otherwise is a liar.
>Barry (The Laughing Hyena)
>America's First Glider Trike Pilot.
Speaking of our old socialista buddy Olivier Aubert; looks like
he crashed the fuggen shit out of his trike recently:
http://superhub.com/dtatrike/oliviers_travels/oliviers_crash.htm
(For our esteemed readers, the infamous Olivier Aubert is the person
whom called Barry and myself "Hyenas" and thus, the "Laughing Hyena"
in Barry's signature.)
-=Mike=-
Beechnut
he crashed the fuggen shit out of his trike recently:
Glad he wasn't hurt. Lucky no Hyena's were around.
You know, when he said we were like a Hyenas, I started laughing my ass
off. Thus was born the "Laughing Hyena". I liked it so much; I'm going
to keep it forever. Reminds me of the grinning gargoyle.
ls
Once again, Mike speaks the truth.... I think my trike gives a glide
ratio somewhere in the neighborhood of 7:1, just making a rough guess.
Oddly enough, my single surface wing (air creation fun 14), has a
somewhat better glide ratio than my xp11 double-surface, even flying the
xp11 at Vbg.....
In other words, with the fun 14 and motor off/prop stopped, my fun racer
flies like a brick and with the xp11, a little more of a brick ;).
>>How do trikes cross terrain with no suitable emergency field, like
>>water / rough country?
>
>
> Like everything else in aviation, it's all about risk management.
> When it comes to trikes, a handy rule of thumb is that you can
> glide about one mile for every one thousand feet of altitude
> (which is about a realistic 5:1 glide ratio).
>
> You either play it safe and simply refrain from flying over
> inhospitable terrain....or you take your chances but most trikers
> play it super duper safe annoying the crap out of everyone else
> in the process by shooting endless touch 'n goes in the traffic
> pattern rarely venturing beyond a 25 nm radius of their home
> airport.
>
> The good news is that because ultralight trikes are so incredibly
> slow and draggy, the odds are fairly good that you'll probably
> walk away from a deadstick landing even if forced down over
> inhospitable terrain in one of these "mopeds of the sky."
Well the other wonderful gift that some of our UL'ers give us the bad
rap on 2-strokes. If you look at some of the stuff flying around in the
air right now that rap is well deserved.
I see it all the time where I fly - a quicksilver or gt400 or something
like that will fly in and the motors will simply shock you. Cylinders
literally coated with oil so bad it's dripping out of the cooling air
openings in the shroud, plug caps held on with tie wraps (this is one of
my favorites because it's so easy and cheap to fix), black runny crap
pouring out of the crank seals, rust all over the flywheel and
everything else, carb boots so old and rotten they're about to split and
let the carbs fall off along with..... It's obvious just by looking the
motors havn't been apart in years. They sat for probably 4 or 5 years
and then are run with with the old, rotten seals and god knows what
corrosion inside.......
Then at the pilot happily informs you how well the motor has done the
last 500 hours running 100:1 amsoil and has never been apart.........
Meanwhile you can go to the back of the machine and rotate the prop
easily by hand due to the totally worn out rings.........
Then... they go down in a field somewhere finally when the poor thing
gives up the ghost. Bingo - "2 strokes suck! They're dangerous, they'll
put you in the trees!".. etc....
Ask Mark Smith or Tom Olenik how many motors they've worked on that are
in this condition.......
It's a sad fact that most 2-strokes are run in this over-the-borderline
condition. They go down in fields and trees and shit as a consequence,
and the guys just scratch their heads wondering what happened...... This
will just amaze you.......
I've owned 4 or 5 503's now and have never had any significant problems
with mine (because I do the routine maintenance and install them as
properly as I can, etc). But of course, we never hear about the ones
that are maintained well and propped/jetted/run properly....
Anyway, rant over ;). Sorry guys, back to our regularly scheduled
programming ;).
LS
AC fun racer 503.
> -=Mike=-
>
>
>
>
>
>
Mike Marron
>Once again, Mike speaks the truth.... I think my trike gives a glide
>ratio somewhere in the neighborhood of 7:1, just making a rough guess.
>Oddly enough, my single surface wing (air creation fun 14), has a
>somewhat better glide ratio than my xp11 double-surface, even flying the
>xp11 at Vbg.....
Pardon my ignorance, but kindly explain "Vbg..." ?
>In other words, with the fun 14 and motor off/prop stopped, my fun racer
>flies like a brick and with the xp11, a little more of a brick ;).
>Well the other wonderful gift that some of our UL'ers give us the bad
>rap on 2-strokes. If you look at some of the stuff flying around in the
>air right now that rap is well deserved.
>I see it all the time where I fly - a quicksilver or gt400 or something
>like that will fly in and the motors will simply shock you. Cylinders
>literally coated with oil so bad it's dripping out of the cooling air
>openings in the shroud, plug caps held on with tie wraps (this is one of
>my favorites because it's so easy and cheap to fix), black runny crap
>pouring out of the crank seals, rust all over the flywheel and
>everything else, carb boots so old and rotten they're about to split and
>let the carbs fall off along with..... It's obvious just by looking the
>motors havn't been apart in years. They sat for probably 4 or 5 years
>and then are run with with the old, rotten seals and god knows what
>corrosion inside.......
Thank you. You've just described how Mike "tightwad" Huckle
maintains his equipment.
>Then at the pilot happily informs you how well the motor has done the
>last 500 hours running 100:1 amsoil and has never been apart.........
>Meanwhile you can go to the back of the machine and rotate the prop
>easily by hand due to the totally worn out rings.........
When I was in the San Diego area several years ago working
with Barry and Jon getting my Q912 N-numbered, I had the
pleasure of actually watching Mr. Huckle in action at Otay airport.
Mr. Huckle, the infamous South African immigrant, came to America
obviously under false pretenses because right after he arrived
on U.S. soil he turned around and proceeded to stab his American
friends and sponsors (Barry Palmatier and Jon Thornburgh) squarely
in the back.
After Huckle quickly wore out his welcome in the San Diego area,
his original new home here in the States, he then packed up and
fled to Sacramento, 500 miles to the north. But Mr. Huckle, perhaps
thee most prolific poster of all time on the various trike email
groups not to mention a self-appointed know-it-all, continues
to badmouth all-things-America,
Now, based on how he talks one would be led to believe that this
Mike Huckle person really, REALLY knows his stuff, right?
WRONG!
First off, when Huckle rolled out his trike to give a "lesson" to some
poor, unsuspecting student, it failed to start. As the student stood
by patiently waiting, out came the battery charger and Huckle finally
managed to crank up his "trusty" Rotaxen 582...
As someone who knows how a well-maintained 582 is *supposed*
to sound, I must confess that the look on my face after hearing
Huckle's piece-o-crap 582 must've been similar to when the wife
whips out a 12-inch strap-on in mid session! [jus' kidding]
Seriously though, after hearing Huckle's motor I was left with
my jaw agape! At idle, Huckle's 582 has this horrendous,
pulsating, metal-on-metal grinding sound like the carbs haven't
been synchronized in years while an assortment of loose
nuts and bolts rattle around freely deep inside his crankcase.
Personally, I would never dream of flying in one of his trikes if
I were a student!
To be sure, although Mr. Huckle is forever boasting how great
his tired old 582's are, anyone whose actually seen and heard
his neglected junk trainer trikes in various stages of disrepair
is left absolutely astounded.
If anyone needs any justification whatsoever for the mandating
of new airworthiness standards via the FAA, all you need to do
is simply schedule an introductory flight with Mr. Huckle. Most of
us "in the know" are betting on Mr. Huckle to vanish completely
from the ultralight trike business in a couple more years after the
new Sport Pilot regulations become the law of the land.
In the meanwhile, it would behoove one and all who may be
misguided enough to actually consider doing any business
with Mr. Huckle to first contact Barry Palmatier and/or Jon
Thornburgh.
>Then... they go down in a field somewhere finally when the poor thing
>gives up the ghost. Bingo - "2 strokes suck! They're dangerous, they'll
>put you in the trees!".. etc....
>Ask Mark Smith or Tom Olenik how many motors they've worked on that are
>in this condition.......
>It's a sad fact that most 2-strokes are run in this over-the-borderline
>condition. They go down in fields and trees and shit as a consequence,
>and the guys just scratch their heads wondering what happened...... This
>will just amaze you.......
See above. No argument here.
>I've owned 4 or 5 503's now and have never had any significant problems
>with mine (because I do the routine maintenance and install them as
>properly as I can, etc). But of course, we never hear about the ones
>that are maintained well and propped/jetted/run properly....
I've owned three 503's myself and am a huge fan of this compact
and dependable little engine as well. And except for the outrageous
price, I also give the 912 very high marks.
>Anyway, rant over ;). Sorry guys, back to our regularly scheduled
>programming ;).
Good post. No need to apologize. ;-)
-=Mike=-
ls
> Pardon my ignorance, but kindly explain "Vbg..." ?
I may actually be mislabelling this - Barry, correct me if I'm wrong on
this. I'm referring to best glide speed, which I think in hang glider
parlance is called Vbg. I might be confusing this with Vms, which I
believe is minimum sink airspeed which doesn't necessarily correspond
with best glide.
See, this is why I need that BFR.. ;)
> Thank you. You've just described how Mike "tightwad" Huckle
> maintains his equipment.
>
>
> When I was in the San Diego area several years ago working
> with Barry and Jon getting my Q912 N-numbered, I had the
> pleasure of actually watching Mr. Huckle in action at Otay airport.
>
> Mr. Huckle, the infamous South African immigrant, came to America
> obviously under false pretenses because right after he arrived
> on U.S. soil he turned around and proceeded to stab his American
> friends and sponsors (Barry Palmatier and Jon Thornburgh) squarely
> in the back.
What happened? Er, maybe I don't want to know.. nah, I want to know ;).
Let me guess - I'll bet it was equipped with some enourmous 3-blade
prop, probably an IVO, which in 3-blade configurations exceeds the
inertia limits of the b box by between 1.5 and 2 times, and is at or
near the limits of even the C box.
This is another thing you see a lot, which puts you completely at the
mercy of the good graces of the well-designed rotax motors. Some huge,
heavy prop on a b box equipped motor. In fact, the motors will often
keep going ok for hundreds of hours with these abusively heavy props on
them.
Well, more to the point, one of the other symptoms is the low idle with
the horrible chattering. This happens on the rotax even with a correct
prop as well, but the motor can be spooled up and out of this super low
range into a smooth 2k rpm idle quite easily by a well-trained operator.
With the enourmous prop fitted to the poor motor, though, you have to
really lean on the gas to spool it up, putting all kinds of extra stress
on the box and crankshaft.
Unknowledgeable or don't-care pilots just let the motor rattle away at
that 1500 rpm or so, with all that stress going into the crank assembly,
until it's time to hit the gas and take off.
You'll also notice a lot of these guys just go on out to the flight line
after startup and hit the gas, with no warmup. Again, the rotax will
forgive you for this for a while, especially the air cooled ones, but
the important 5 min warmup is one of the most neglected things I see.
> If anyone needs any justification whatsoever for the mandati
> of new airworthiness standards via the FAA, all you need to do
> is simply schedule an introductory flight with Mr. Huckle. Most of
> us "in the know" are betting on Mr. Huckle to vanish completely
> from the ultralight trike business in a couple more years after the
> new Sport Pilot regulations become the law of the land.
>
> In the meanwhile, it would behoove one and all who may be
> misguided enough to actually consider doing any business
> with Mr. Huckle to first contact Barry Palmatier and/or Jon
> Thornburgh.
Yep, look the motor over as you're admiring the potential instructors
trike or airplane if the motor's exposed. I look for:
-black fluid coming out of the front seal (usually dripping out of the
bottom of the fan housing and the seam where it mates with the block,
all over the cylinders on an inverted motor).
-black fluid dripping down from the exhaust manifold where it attaches
to the motor (means manifold bolts havn't been tightened down since 1901).
-cracks in the carb boots (the big deep crevices, not just slight
surface cracks which are pretty much normal)
-easily removed spark plug caps (tie wraps are a dead givaway that 10
stinking bucks have been chinched by the pilot)
-the blackass, rotted, 4 mile long pulse line (this is one thing on the
plane likely to give a fuel starvation problem on climbout and
subsequent emergency landing).
and the piece d. resistance:
-blackass, rotted fuel line that's so old and cracked you can hardly see
through it and so rotted it comes apart like a gooey, ropey taffy when
pulled hard.....
You can do all this in 20 seconds just with a walkaround (well can't
pull on the fuel line, but you can see the rotted stuff)......
Now, going a little while before teardown with a slightly leakey seal,
yeah, that's probably not going to bite you, but the other common stuff
- the crappy, worn out falling off plug caps, about-to-split carb boots
and the 200 year old fuel line - is both the cheapest and easiest
maintenance to do and the most likely to give a significant problem.
Stupid to not do it because it can put you down in a field or worse.....
>
> Good post. No need to apologize. ;-)
Well looks like I ranted again.... Maybe I'm on a roll.... ;)
> -=Mike=-
>
Mike Marron
>>Mike Marron wrote:
>> Pardon my ignorance, but kindly explain "Vbg..." ?
>I may actually be mislabelling this - Barry, correct me if I'm wrong on
>this. I'm referring to best glide speed, which I think in hang glider
>parlance is called Vbg. I might be confusing this with Vms, which I
>believe is minimum sink airspeed which doesn't necessarily correspond
>with best glide.
>See, this is why I need that BFR.. ;)
I don't know hangglide terminology but as a CFI and FAA certified
glider pilot typically we simply use Vx for minimum sink (approx)
and and Vy for best L/D (approx). At best L/D (e.g: best glide speed)
an airplane glides the farthest and at min sink (e.g: Vmin) the
airplane stays in the air the longest. By convention no V-speed is
given for best L/D since it varies depending on whether you're
gliding in a tailwind or a headwind.
>>Thank you. You've just described how Mike "tightwad" Huckle
>>maintains his equipment.
>>When I was in the San Diego area several years ago working
>>with Barry and Jon getting my Q912 N-numbered, I had the
>>pleasure of actually watching Mr. Huckle in action at Otay airport.
>>Mr. Huckle, the infamous South African immigrant, came to America
>>obviously under false pretenses because right after he arrived
>>on U.S. soil he turned around and proceeded to stab his American
>>friends and sponsors (Barry Palmatier and Jon Thornburgh) squarely
>>in the back.
>What happened? Er, maybe I don't want to know.. nah, I want to know ;).
The damdest thing I've EVER heard is what happened! Hopefully,
Barry will jump in here and elaborate a bit.
Guess ya had to be there, but the "horrible chattering" term
you used applies perfectly to the sound of a Huckle-owned 582.
The guy obviously takes no pride whatsoever in maintaining his
equipment and his trike sees the light of day only when some
naive, paying customer comes around. Makes ya' sick.
Whether one is a newbie or old-timer, all the above is good advice.
Thanks.
-=Mike=-
Beechnut
"ls" <lstave...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:f1aTd.37744$cW2....@fe2.texas.rr.com...
>
> > Thank you. You've just described how Mike "tightwad" Huckle
> > maintains his equipment.
> >
> >
> > When I was in the San Diego area several years ago working
> > with Barry and Jon getting my Q912 N-numbered, I had the
> > pleasure of actually watching Mr. Huckle in action at Otay airport.
> >
> > Mr. Huckle, the infamous South African immigrant, came to America
> > obviously under false pretenses because right after he arrived
> > on U.S. soil he turned around and proceeded to stab his American
> > friends and sponsors (Barry Palmatier and Jon Thornburgh) squarely
> > in the back.
>
> What happened? Er, maybe I don't want to know.. nah, I want to know ;).
Mike Huckle contacted me when I was on the old KZ list. He was still in Seth
Efrica at the time and was looking to set up shop in the states. I had just
contacted Aquilla trikes at the time and was going to set up a school and
dealership in San Diego. I was the ONLY triker South of LA and could have
probably done a good business. Family pressures and work obligations
obviously would have made it though though. So, when Mike contacted me, I
told him of the wonderful opportunity we had in San Diego, sent him a video
I made of our airfield etc and offered to help get him going if he decided
on settling in San Diego.
He came. At the time we (The San Diego Ultralight association) had a
moratorium on hangars. NO NEW CONSTRUCTION. This was a problem because we
needed a place for aircraft. I personally set up a meeting with the BOD of
the SDUA with Mike and myself to get permission for business operations and
permission to build ONE new hangar, capable of housing 3 completely set up
trikes.
Permission was granted.
Mike returned back to Seth Efrica and sent his wife and kids to the states
while he remained to finalize personal affairs. During this time, I looked
for apartments for his family, and helped them move in when they arrived. He
was still out of the country while I was doing this.
After Mike arrived back in the states, and before his trike arrived, I let
him use my trike to do business. I took NO compensation, and like an IDIOT
even paid for gas.
Things were ok, however I did notice he had a tendency to be kind of
secretive, call it...short on words, not much of a conversationalist.
After some time, Mikes trike arrived and he got into full training mode. He
built the hangar he was given permission for, which was in a prime location
to boot. In exchange for my help, he let me rent one of the spaces for my
trike. About a year went by, without any troubles and then one day he comes
to me and tells me out of the blue that I had to get out, the sooner the
better.
The reason was, he sold a new trike to a student, and the student needed a
place to keep it. I was FUCKING AMAZED. I had no place to keep my trike,
no other space was available, and I couldn't even build a hangar if I wanted
too because the LAST SPACE AVAILABLE was given to Fuckle, uh, I mean Huckle.
Fortunately for me, the field manager took pity on me (he also didn't care
too much for Fuckle) and said I could construct a hangar for my trike. I got
a partner, who is a good friend to this day and built a hangar up against
the side of a hill. Not exactly the best spot, but it beat the shit out of
having to trailer my trike.
Turns out, my new friend and partner also got screwed by Fuckle, but I don't
know the exact details so I wont comment. All I know is it had something to
do with Mike owing him $50, and Fuckles wife eventually paid it. Mike
refused to.
With regard to my trike, which I bought from Mike shortly after he arrived
in San Diego....I was told I would get a "special dealer" price because of
all the help I had given him. Found out later just how "special" that price
was. It was just a tad higher than what he was selling to his regular
students. Oh, yes and I forgot to mention, he striped things off of it I
didn't need at the time like the bracket for the battery (I had a pull
start) and the dual ignition switches and cable harnessing ( I had a Rotax
532 ). I ordered the 582 kit, but he "converted" it for me, without my
permission.
Oh, man their is lots more I could tell you. Like the time he took my prop
off and used it two weeks while I was on vacation without my permission. He
wanted to see how a 2 blade 72" ivo would perform on his 582. One of his
customers was thinking of getting one, so he took mine. I found out when I
went out to fly, and had to go take my prop off his trike, just to get in
the air. Never mind the fucking rock strikes he put on it.
As far as maintenance. Heh, the guy NEVER does any maintenance unless it is
broken and not working. Let me rephrase that. He does no maintenance, he
only does repairs. Every thing Marron says about what he saw is true.
Fuckles 582 was a grease throwing surging piece of crap! It was leaking oil
from the case seams and that is why it ran so badly. The mixture was way off
because it was sucking air through the case. It finally got so bad, it would
only run near full throttle. That I guess was broke enough because he then
had it "fixed" and promptly sold it.
He also has an ECO prop which he ran rocs through to the point it too became
a ragged piece of shit. You know what his solution to that was? He hacked
off the outer 3 inches of the prop and kept using it. Now this scared the
ever loving crap out of me, because it was a hollow prop. He didn't even
bother to tape over or fill the ends with epoxy. Nope, just ran it that way,
buzzing like a mother fucker the whole time, ready to delaminate and explode
in flight. The whole time he is taking students with it. Finally, he sold it
to his good buddy Bill Cornelius. Bill continued to use it, even though I
told him not to, for a little while before disappearing into never never
land.
And for his grand finally, just before he left, he sold a wing to a pre solo
student of his, who I agreed to finish up his training. The student had
about 10 hrs with Fuckle.....learned nothing. When I flew that wing, I came
to the firm conclusion that it was the most dangerous piece of crap I had
ever flown. It had SERIOUS yaw roll coupling issues, and of course Fuckle
knew it. He (Fuckle) had been screwing around with the amount of dihedral in
that wing in an attempt to cure the beast, but it didn't work. It was just a
bad wing, and as far as I know, the only one of it's kind to be made by
Raptor trikes. End result....the wing crashed with me and the student in
it, destroying the trike and completely. We came away without a scratch by
the grace of god. This was THE ONLY accident I ever had in 25 years of
flying and while I am ultimately to blame for agreeing to fly that piece of
shit, Fuckle has ZERO regard for anybody but himself, and could care less if
that wing had killed somebody or not. He got his money and that is all he
was interested in.
>
> > After Huckle quickly wore out his welcome in the San Diego area,
> > his original new home here in the States, he then packed up and
> > fled to Sacramento, 500 miles to the north. But Mr. Huckle, perhaps
> > thee most prolific poster of all time on the various trike email
> > groups not to mention a self-appointed know-it-all, continues
> > to badmouth all-things-America,
Yep, but guess what Mike. He kept ownership in a hangar in San Diego, so we
aren't completely rid of him yet. Oh well, I am out of there anyway. I am
over at Brown now, Class D, and Fuckle wont last 10 seconds there if he
decides to show up.
> >
> > Now, based on how he talks one would be led to believe that this
> > Mike Huckle person really, REALLY knows his stuff, right?
> >
> > WRONG!
In a word....Huckle is a FRAUD!
> >
> > Seriously though, after hearing Huckle's motor I was left with
> > my jaw agape! At idle, Huckle's 582 has this horrendous,
> > pulsating, metal-on-metal grinding sound like the carbs haven't
> > been synchronized in years while an assortment of loose
> > nuts and bolts rattle around freely deep inside his crankcase.
> > Personally, I would never dream of flying in one of his trikes if
> > I were a student!
This is exactly why he will never get one of his trikes N numbered. No way
it could pass an AW inspection. The only way he will be able to do it, is if
he gets the inspection on a new trike. Then, he's going to have trouble with
annual inspections. Even if he does those himself, it wont take long before
a complaint to the local FSDO grounds him.
>
> Let me guess - I'll bet it was equipped with some enormous 3-blade
> prop, probably an IVO, which in 3-blade configurations exceeds the
> inertia limits of the b box by between 1.5 and 2 times, and is at or
> near the limits of even the C box.
No Lucian, it was a 3 blade 72" warp on a C box, and yes it was leaking from
the case. He recently attempted to sell it on ULT. "like new condition"
>
> the important 5 min warmup is one of the most neglected things I see.
Fuckle always did the 5 min warmup, because it WOULDN'T RUN unless it was
hot and the leaky case swelled enough to get the mixture right.
>
> > If anyone needs any justification whatsoever for the mandati
> > of new airworthiness standards via the FAA, all you need to do
> > is simply schedule an introductory flight with Mr. Huckle. Most of
> > us "in the know" are betting on Mr. Huckle to vanish completely
> > from the ultralight trike business in a couple more years after the
> > new Sport Pilot regulations become the law of the land.
The sooner the better!
Barry (The Laughing Hyena)
Brad Blackburn
Fuckle,,,,,,,I like it!!
Some fine reading this Saturday morning.
Worthy of an entire repost in my reply.
I didn't know he moved to Sacra-Tomato,,,,damn,,and I passed through
there on vacation last year.
So what does Fuckle do for a living?
Brad
ls
My god.... I never knew all this went down.... I'll of course file this
info away in the ol' noggin for further reference for sure.
I must say, over the years I've become a lot less charitable because of
things like this. I'll go out of my way quite a ways to help a fellow
pilot, but only once I've gotten to know him or her rather well and have
a good idea whether or not I'll get shafted.
There're a lot of rip-off artists flying around out there.....
> As far as maintenance. Heh, the guy NEVER does any maintenance unless it is
> broken and not working. Let me rephrase that. He does no maintenance, he
> only does repairs. Every thing Marron says about what he saw is true.
> Fuckles 582 was a grease throwing surging piece of crap! It was leaking oil
> from the case seams and that is why it ran so badly. The mixture was way off
> because it was sucking air through the case. It finally got so bad, it would
> only run near full throttle. That I guess was broke enough because he then
> had it "fixed" and promptly sold it.
>
> He also has an ECO prop which he ran rocs through to the point it too became
> a ragged piece of shit. You know what his solution to that was? He hacked
> off the outer 3 inches of the prop and kept using it. Now this scared the
> ever loving crap out of me, because it was a hollow prop. He didn't even
> bother to tape over or fill the ends with epoxy. Nope, just ran it that way,
> buzzing like a mother fucker the whole time, ready to delaminate and explode
> in flight. The whole time he is taking students with it. Finally, he sold it
> to his good buddy Bill Cornelius. Bill continued to use it, even though I
> told him not to, for a little while before disappearing into never never
> land.
Yep. We have one or two locals who do shit like this too. One guy
flipped his Avid Flyer onto its back the very day he bought it. He
resumed flying it not too long after that after patching it together
somehow, even with a bent up wing.... Apart from that, he also stole a
bunch of stuff and owe's people money for the stuff he didn't actually
outright try to steal.
Had another guy who chinched out on his equipment with his PPC. Ran
hardware store bolts and crappy hardware store eyelets for his
outriggers. Lots of other stupid crap and accidents too. Finally got
into an accident in which his wife was killed right there at the POI and
nearly him too.
So, as you already know, you'd be amazed at what you run into in the UL
community. There're lots of good folks, to be sure, but there're some
real duds too.
> And for his grand finally, just before he left, he sold a wing to a pre solo
> student of his, who I agreed to finish up his training. The student had
> about 10 hrs with Fuckle.....learned nothing. When I flew that wing, I came
> to the firm conclusion that it was the most dangerous piece of crap I had
> ever flown. It had SERIOUS yaw roll coupling issues, and of course Fuckle
> knew it. He (Fuckle) had been screwing around with the amount of dihedral in
> that wing in an attempt to cure the beast, but it didn't work. It was just a
> bad wing, and as far as I know, the only one of it's kind to be made by
> Raptor trikes. End result....the wing crashed with me and the student in
> it, destroying the trike and completely. We came away without a scratch by
> the grace of god. This was THE ONLY accident I ever had in 25 years of
> flying and while I am ultimately to blame for agreeing to fly that piece of
> shit, Fuckle has ZERO regard for anybody but himself, and could care less if
> that wing had killed somebody or not. He got his money and that is all he
> was interested in.
Holy shit.....
I'll file this away in my memory as well....
Ok, well he at least had the gearbox and prop sorta right then... but
the case halves? hrm.....
>
>>the important 5 min warmup is one of the most neglected things I see.
>
>
> Fuckle always did the 5 min warmup, because it WOULDN'T RUN unless it was
> hot and the leaky case swelled enough to get the mixture right.
Leaking case halves I don't think I've ever seen locally. So that's a
first for me to hear about especially on a motor that's in regular use....
Otherwise, ejecting a fellow pilot out your hangar with no notice is
completely below the belt. That happened to me with my quicksilver. I
was given 3 weeks to Get The Fuck Out with hardly any explanation, along
with a bunch of other airplanes.
Fortunately, at least my plane was flyable so I found a new hangar,
jumped in it one day and flew it to its new home.....
But still, that's the worst thing you can do to a pilot IMO - that's
Scheisterism pure and simple!
LS
Mr.Homa
like 100 to 110.
"Mike Marron" <pegas...@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:j0sj11tpg54t1p8gc...@4ax.com...
Russ and/or Martha Oppenheim
Martha
"Mr.Homa" <ht...@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:11c7v2v...@corp.supernews.com...
Ray Abbruzzese
FlyUL listserve for spewing this same drivel years ago. He has an ego that
never ends and he considers himself "THE" expert on everything, and I mean
EVERYTHING. But, hey, he's never wrong about anything, just ask him, he'll
let you know.
--
Ray Abbruzzese
Lincoln, NE
Standard Disclaimer: These are my opinions and you all know about opinions
(they are like butts: everybody has one). I could be wrong and I probably
am. Just please do not sue me.
"Russ and/or Martha Oppenheim" <moppe...@satx.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Dd4xe.97971$PR6....@tornado.texas.rr.com...
Mark Smith
I've used the 'moron' bit too, and it's wearing a bit thin,,,,,,,,,,
Mike has a lot of experience after paying some heavy dues in the
ultralight world,,,,,,,,,,
He isn't the brightest bulb in the string, I am, but a lot of what he
says isn't that far off the mark.
The quicksilver list just got a posting of the Phantom specs,
253 pounds and 63 mph at WOT,
yeah, sure,,,,,,,,,,
and the 9 G rating is based on the 254 a really light pilot and
virtually no fuel,,,,,,,,,
with a real people pilot and some fuel, the plane grosses out and
reduces the g loads to those similar with any wire braced plane, 6 and
4,,,,,,,,,,,
check the quicksilver site for the top speed of a sprint,,,,,,,,,,,,
Now if you can refute what Mike said, you sure didn't write it down this
time around,,,,,,,,,,,,you just attacked the messenger, and when it's
Mike, sometimes that is great fun,,,,,,
but some facts would help your case a bunch,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
--
Mark Smith
Tri-State Kite Sales
1121 N Locust St
Mt Vernon, IN 47620
1-812-838-6351
http://www.trikite.com
mailto:ma...@trikite.com
Darrel Toepfer
> A 152 cruises at around 110, a 172 around 120, maybe 125.
Depends on the HP/Prop of each. For the models I flew, your numbers are
backwards... C152 115hp '77 Cruise prop - C172F 145hp '65 Climb prop
Dean A. Scott
>> For example, the popular AirBorne Wizard trike wing area is
>> at 27-33 mph... but its max takeoff weight is only 884 lbs.
>> compared to say, a Cessna 172 which has a smaller wing area
>> yet has a max takeoff weight of 2,450 lbs.
As one can see, lift is proportional (or is that exponentially
proportional?) to velocity. Of course a drag reduced speed UL
is going to have less lift compared to something streamline
going 5 times faster... duh.
Ingore a partial set of the laws of physics for a moment and make
that Airborne go 120 mph and sure, it'll lift over a ton, too and
visa versa... get a Cessna to go 45 mph and it too will lift under
900 pounds.
Dean A. Scott, mfa
---------------------------------------
School of Visual Art and Design
southern adventist university
---------------------------------------
http://www.southern.edu/~dascott
Mike Marron
>Mike has a lot of experience after paying some heavy dues in the
>ultralight world,,,,,,,,,,
Sorry Mark, but I had lots of experience and had paid my dues many
years BEFORE I even laid eyes on an ultralight. And that experience
is what enabled me to effortlessly leave you in the dust when later
on I actually took up flying ultralight trikes. I've legally flown a
trike over towns and cities, logged cross-countries at night, operated
in Class B airspace, etc. and have been featured in several editorials
on TV and have even been invited by the FAA to become a Sport Pilot
Examiner (thanks, but no thanks!) Conversely, you can only dream of
doing any of those things as you are STILL universally loathed by
non-aviators and aviators alike and therefore you are still unwelcome
at many, if not most GA airports. Of course, by law you are also not
allowed to go anywhere near populated areas and must keep your
ringy dingy little moped-of-the-sky strictly far out in the boonies
where you can't harm anyone but yourself. You see Mark, when it comes
to the "ultralight world," I came, I saw, I conquered while OTOH you
are still plugging along bitching and moaning about the new Sport
Pilot regs that will force you to finally pay your dues. Sorry Marky,
but the sun don't shine on the same dog's ass twice! As far as that
moron named "Ray Abrrupussy" from Lincoln Numbraska is
concerned, apparently he must've woke up on the wrong side of his
mommy yesterday morning as I don't have the first clue who he is or
what his fucking problem is. All I know is that his newsfeed sucks
and must come from East India as this thread died months ago.
Later!
Mike Marron
N123FB
Mike Marron
>>Mike Marron wrote:
>>For example, the popular AirBorne Wizard trike wing area is
>>189 sq. ft... cruises at a blazing fast 46-52 mph and stalls
>>at 27-33 mph... but its max takeoff weight is only 884 lbs.
>>compared to say, a Cessna 172 which has a smaller wing area
>>of 175 sq. ft... cruises at 140 mph and stalls at 54-58 mph..
>>yet has a max takeoff weight of 2,450 lbs.
>As one can see, lift is proportional (or is that exponentially
>proportional?) to velocity. Of course a drag reduced speed UL
>is going to have less lift compared to something streamline
>going 5 times faster... duh.
As one can see, you are full of shit and obviously don't understand
how a trike's flexwing (derivative of hang glider flexwings) actually
works. Have you even seen a trike wing up close? Using WW2 aircraft
just as an example, given your simplistic description of lift vis a
vis velocity, the faster P-51 Mustang ought to be capable of carrying
more bombs than the slower A-1 Skyraider. Wrong.
>Ingore a partial set of the laws of physics for a moment and make
>that Airborne go 120 mph and sure, it'll lift over a ton, too and
>visa versa... get a Cessna to go 45 mph and it too will lift under
>900 pounds.
Wrong again (see above).
Mike Marron
Mike Marron
>>Russ and/or Martha Oppenheim wrote:
>>A 152 cruises at around 110, a 172 around 120, maybe 125.
>Depends on the HP/Prop of each.
Exactly right. Also the type of prop (fixed vs. C/S) and 172 airframe
(fixed gear vs. retractable) must be taken into account.
Darrel Toepfer
>>Darrel Toepfer wrote:
>>>Russ and/or Martha Oppenheim wrote:
>
>>>A 152 cruises at around 110, a 172 around 120, maybe 125.
>
>>Depends on the HP/Prop of each.
>
> Exactly right. Also the type of prop (fixed vs. C/S) and 172 airframe
> (fixed gear vs. retractable) must be taken into account.
And the numbers are in MPH not Knots. We're assuming fixed gear since
there never was a retractable C152. C/S prop was never a C152 option
either, that was done through engine upgrade STC's. C175 with its geared
motor (higher rev version of the 0-300) had a C/S prop option. When a
reference is made to "cruise" and "climb" a fixed pitch prop is
assumed... <g>
Mike Marron
>>Mike Marron wrote:
>>Exactly right. Also the type of prop (fixed vs. C/S) and 172 airframe
>>(fixed gear vs. retractable) must be taken into account.
>And the numbers are in MPH not Knots. We're assuming fixed gear since
>there never was a retractable C152. C/S prop was never a C152 option
>either, that was done through engine upgrade STC's. C175 with its geared
>motor (higher rev version of the 0-300) had a C/S prop option. When a
>reference is made to "cruise" and "climb" a fixed pitch prop is
>assumed... <g>
No argument. As an aside, here's an interesting C-152 "Texas
Taildragger" mod claiming a sea-level top speed of 140 mph:
Darrel Toepfer
> No argument. As an aside, here's an interesting C-152 "Texas
> Taildragger" mod claiming a sea-level top speed of 140 mph:
>
> http://www.moptions.cnc.net/n69104/forsale.htm
I've seen a 180hp one forsale recently. I'm sure it is capable of near
vertical takeoffs...
Ray Abbruzzese
him and his ego 1000% or you are the dumbest, stupidest, profanity laced
thing he can think of. Please share more of your wisdom with us, oh great
ultralight, private pilot, all seeing, all knowing God that you are!!!!
Please throw us mere mortals just a tiny scrap of your aviation wisdom and
we will all bow down and kiss your most holy feet. We are truly unworthy to
even breathe the same air as you, oh Master of all things!
--
Ray Abbruzzese
Lincoln, NE
Standard Disclaimer: These are my opinions and you all know about opinions
(they are like butts: everybody has one). I could be wrong and I probably
am. Just please do not sue me.
"Mike Marron" <pegas...@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:8rrdc11e4qvcrkkkt...@4ax.com...
Mike Marron
>This is just too easy. Mike makes my arguments for me. You either agree with
>him and his ego 1000% or you are the dumbest, stupidest, profanity laced
>thing he can think of. Please share more of your wisdom with us, oh great
>ultralight, private pilot, all seeing, all knowing God that you are!!!!
>Please throw us mere mortals just a tiny scrap of your aviation wisdom and
>we will all bow down and kiss your most holy feet. We are truly unworthy to
>even breathe the same air as you, oh Master of all things!
Damn I'm good.
Mike (damn good!) Marron
PHILLIP COYLE
retractable gear on a 172. I also have my private licence and fly U/L. I
have been watching your posts for a while now and from what I aan see you
must be a want to be flier because you don't seem to know much about flying
or aircraft.
"Mike Marron" <pegas...@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:vb0ec1h8mtp7n9arr...@4ax.com...
Darrel Toepfer
> Mike you are an ass. Just when was the last time you saw a C/S prop or
> retractable gear on a 172. I also have my private licence and fly U/L. I
> have been watching your posts for a while now and from what I aan see you
> must be a want to be flier because you don't seem to know much about flying
> or aircraft.
Google "Cessna Cutless". Its a retract C172... C/S props on C172's are
not unheard of, just not very common...
Mike Marron
>Google "Cessna Cutless". Its a retract C172... C/S props on C172's are
>not unheard of, just not very common...
Yup. Newbies, ya' just gotta' love 'em!
Dean A. Scott
Don't sound so forced, Mike. You... love a newbie? Ha.
In here, words speak louder than actions... and your
words of late have been entirely 180.