Slipping C150 w/40 degrees flaps
T Koyn
Hello Pilots and CFIs,
I understand that some think it's OK to slip a C150 with all 40 degrees
flaps in while others feel strongly against it. Could anyone please share
their views on this with me? I mean is it safe to slip a C150 with 40
flaps in the landing approach or not? I'd like to hear what CFIs think
too. I thank you for E-mailing me your response in addition to posting
publically. (My news server is being updated at my ISP and thus may miss
messages in the transition period.)
Blue Skies and Soft Landings,
Tamara
"Cloud Dancer"
http://www.koyn.com/CloudDancer
Greg W. Evans
My instructor informed me never to slip a 152 with "any" flaps. I did not
attempt to confirm this at the time, but will try to find it in the
Operator's Manual.
Greg
T Koyn wrote in message <6po1ar$hcm$1...@news13.ispnews.com>...
Jeff
required, I could have called it off) to do a full flap forward slip to a
landing.
-Jeff
Chris Stratton
>
> Doug Evans\\Walt Evans\\Amy Evans (dugg...@postoffice.ptd.net) wrote:
> : my view is ..no.
> : take a boat oar and pull the paddle through the water flat. now turn it and
> : pull the paddle through the water blade first. the same thing happens when
> : you slip a plane with 40 deg flaps. straight decent, the flaps are the
> : paddles flat through the water. go into a slip and the paddle turns to no
> : resistance. you go to both ends of the spectrum in an instant. .....you"ll
> : get hurt.
>
> A 152 slips quite nicely with full flaps. My instructor was an Army
> helicopter pilot and virtually every approach in the 152 was full flaps,
> full rudder slip. I guess he felt more comfortable with vertical
> arrivals :-)
>
Full flaps on the 152 are 30 degrees. Probably because people
got in trouble using the 40 degree settings on 150's. I thought
it was more in terms of trying to take off with them than slipping.
--
Christopher C. Stratton
Engineering Consultant, Horn Player, and Brass Instrument Maker
http://www.mdc.net/~stratton or http://bounce.to/stratton
344 Boston Avenue Medford, MA 02155 (781) 393-0034
Doug Evans\Walt Evans\Amy Evans
take a boat oar and pull the paddle through the water flat. now turn it and
pull the paddle through the water blade first. the same thing happens when
you slip a plane with 40 deg flaps. straight decent, the flaps are the
paddles flat through the water. go into a slip and the paddle turns to no
resistance. you go to both ends of the spectrum in an instant. .....you"ll
get hurt.
Richard Hyde
: take a boat oar and pull the paddle through the water flat. now turn it and
: pull the paddle through the water blade first. the same thing happens when
: you slip a plane with 40 deg flaps. straight decent, the flaps are the
: paddles flat through the water. go into a slip and the paddle turns to no
: resistance. you go to both ends of the spectrum in an instant. .....you"ll
: get hurt.
A 152 slips quite nicely with full flaps. My instructor was an Army
helicopter pilot and virtually every approach in the 152 was full flaps,
full rudder slip. I guess he felt more comfortable with vertical
arrivals :-)
Cheers,
Rick
--
Include "wombat" in Subject: line of mail sent to me [to override spamgard(tm)]
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| Richard Hyde | R...@netcom.com | This space intentionally left blank |
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LFransson
In article <6po1ar$hcm$1...@news13.ispnews.com>, T wrote:
>I mean is it safe to slip a C150 with 40 flaps in the landing approach or not?
IMHO, yes it is safe. Why do I say this? Because the placard says something
about how you should AVOID slips with flaps extended, rather than saying that
slips with flaps extended are PROHIBITED. If it was unsafe to do so, you can
bet there would be such a statement in the POH and on the panel specifically
prohibiting slips with flaps.
What you will find is that if you extend flaps to 40 degrees and then put the
airplane in a *serious* slip with full rudder, enough aileron to maintain
desired track, and pitch down to maintain airpseed, the flaps will cause
turbulent airflow over the horizontal stabilizer, causing a noticeable
buffeting of the elevator that you can feel through the control yoke. It could
cause you quite a surprise if you're not expecting it!
Larry L. Fransson - ATP (CE-500), CFMEII
Macon, Georgia
"Pilots are just plane people with a different air about them."
H Howard Lewis Bloom
the flaps. I fly a 172N which has a full 40 of flaps and the placard
warning against doing a slip with full flaps.
Reason: If you are low on fuel, and using one tank instead of both,
you could in a slip with full flaps move the gasoline away from the
sump and therefore introduce vapor into the system causing vapor lock
and eventually an engine that no longer wishes to turn.
Are your tanks full? Are you on both? Yes? Slip all you want.
H Howard Lewis Bloom
PP-ASELGPS
Rod Farlee
>>or not?
There is no such placard for the Cessna 150 or 152.
There is for certain model years only of the 172, 177, 180, 182 and 185
(and for any equipped with skis or floats).
Slips with full flaps work fine. They can give a barely discernable,
slow "nose bobbing" at low speed. (And they usually mean I grossly
misjudged the wind, and am probably landing downwind! <grin>)
>Full flaps on the 152 are 30 degrees. Probably because people
>got in trouble using the 40 degree settings on 150's. I thought
>it was more in terms of trying to take off with them than slipping.
In trouble? Anyway, FAR 23.77 "Balked Landing" certification requirement
says the plane must be able to climb at a 3.3% gradient with flaps down.
The cheapest way to increase the gross weight is to limit the flap travel.
So Cessna did, and increased the C-152 gross by 70 lbs, with the
stroke of a pen. There's an STC for some 172s which does the same.
- Rod Farlee
Dylan Smith
>
> I am amazed at how many people missed the reason that Cessna placards
> the flaps. I fly a 172N which has a full 40 of flaps and the placard
> warning against doing a slip with full flaps.
>
> Reason: If you are low on fuel, and using one tank instead of both,
> you could in a slip with full flaps move the gasoline away from the
> sump and therefore introduce vapor into the system causing vapor lock
> and eventually an engine that no longer wishes to turn.
OK, I'll bite.
In that case, why does it say in the C172N POH that
(to paraphrase) when slipping with full flaps extended,
slight elevator oscillations may be induced, and nothing
about fuel unporting and slipping with flaps extended?
Switching to both tanks on landing (where you are most
likely to use a slip, for example in a crosswind, or
if you just need to get down fast) is a checklist item.
If you are on one tank, and make any uncoordinated
manoever with low fuel you can unport the fuel whether
the flaps are down or not - not just slips with flaps
extended.
--
Email: dy...@r.i.c
Dylan Smith 1810 Space Park Drive, Houston, TX 77573
Standard disclaimer applies.
Anti-spam - Change 'r' to raleigh, 'i' to ibm and 'c' to com.
Richard Hyde
: Richard Hyde wrote:
: >
: > A 152 slips quite nicely with full flaps. My instructor was an Army
: > helicopter pilot and virtually every approach in the 152 was full flaps,
: > full rudder slip. I guess he felt more comfortable with vertical
: > arrivals :-)
: Full flaps on the 152 are 30 degrees. Probably because people
: got in trouble using the 40 degree settings on 150's. I thought
: it was more in terms of trying to take off with them than slipping.
You are right, of course. Most of my primary training was in a 150
with 40 degrees of flap travel. Id` do miss that additional 10
degrees in the 152. :-)
Keith Arnold
<gwev...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Tamara,
>
>My instructor informed me never to slip a 152 with "any" flaps. I did not
>attempt to confirm this at the time, but will try to find it in the
>Operator's Manual.
>
>Greg
>
++++++++++>
You'll only find a suggestion.
ô¿ô - Keith - 182L/STOL - Chino, California
N33° 58' 46" W117° 38' 41"
Russ R.
elevator in a position where it loses effectiveness in the wake of the
airflow stirred up by the full flaps. Result...occillations which could be
nasty if you were low and slow. This seems to go with what the 172 POH
says...I would imagine it is true with planes of similar design. ie: 150/2
Dylan Smith wrote in message <35C077...@raleigh.ibm.com>...
Rod Farlee
>I would imagine it is true with planes of similar design. ie: 150/2
It is not. It's not in the C-150/152 POH or flap placards.
I've tried, and can get only a barely detectable, slow, nose nodding
at low airspeed. It instantly disappears if the rudder isn't all the
way to the floor, or at flaps are less than 40 degrees, or if the
airspeed is over 70 mph. Even so, it's barely detectable and has
a slow phugoid period of about 4 seconds).
Possible reasons might be the 150 flaps aren't as wide (it's the vortex
off their edge, blown onto the stab in a slip, that probably causes this)
and 150 CG isn't as far forward, so the tail loading is lower? I can't
pretend to know, of course!
- Rod Farlee
Dave Stadt
incorrect.
DHS
H Howard Lewis Bloom wrote:
>
> I am amazed at how many people missed the reason that Cessna placards
> the flaps. I fly a 172N which has a full 40 of flaps and the placard
> warning against doing a slip with full flaps.
>
> Reason: If you are low on fuel, and using one tank instead of both,
> you could in a slip with full flaps move the gasoline away from the
> sump and therefore introduce vapor into the system causing vapor lock
> and eventually an engine that no longer wishes to turn.
>
Ron Natalie
>
> From what I've been told. Slipping a Cessna with full flaps puts the
> elevator in a position where it loses effectiveness in the wake of the
> airflow stirred up by the full flaps. Result...occillations which could be
> says...I would imagine it is true with planes of similar design. ie: 150/2
It only says avoid. It explains why with the statement about
controllability not being affected.
It's hard to make happen in the later model 172's. I've
done it though and it's not significant. I wouldn't
extrapolate it to the 150/152. 152's don't even have 40
degrees of flap.
Mark D Jones
>
>Hello Pilots and CFIs,
>
>I understand that some think it's OK to slip a C150 with all 40 degrees
>flaps in while others feel strongly against it. Could anyone please share
>their views on this with me? I mean is it safe to slip a C150 with 40
>flaps in the landing approach or not? I'd like to hear what CFIs think
>too. I thank you for E-mailing me your response in addition to posting
>publically. (My news server is being updated at my ISP and thus may miss
>messages in the transition period.)
>
>Blue Skies and Soft Landings,
>
>Tamara
>"Cloud Dancer"
>http://www.koyn.com/CloudDancer
>
Hello Tamara,
Supposedly on a 150 and also a 172, slips are not recommended with
full flaps as the airplane being dragged through the air sideways with
the flaps down could block the airflow over the elevator. I have
tried to induce this at altitude and have been unable to. However, I
wouldn't advise doing it on landing as there must be something to this
and you might just find out at an inopportune time. They come down
pretty fast at 40 degrees anyway. Hope this helps.
Mark D Jones CFII
ac...@airmail.net
Ron Natalie
>
>
>
> Supposedly on a 150 and also a 172, slips are not recommended with
> full flaps as the airplane being dragged through the air sideways with
> the flaps down could block the airflow over the elevator.
Supposedly as an instructor you should try reading the POH.
There is no restriction on 150's.
172's have a warning, but not a prohibition. I've succeeded
in making an 172N do the nose bob number with a relativly
fast (close to the top of the white arc) full flap full
deflection slip.
It's was so violent that my wife, also a pilot, didn't notice
it when I was yelling, there it is!