Steer with Rudder or Ailerons on Final?
Eugene Boyle
i'm on final (or practicing slow flight), that my primary steering
should come from rudders. Other CFI's I've asked about this tell me
that I still need to steer with ailerons and use rudder to align with
the runway. Why is there such a difference of opinion on such a
seemingly basic, and critically important concept? What are the
pros/cons of each approach? Is one or the other out-dated thinking?
Any opinions or help would be appreciated.
Gene
comanche driver
inputs of rudder and aileron.
now in a cross wind you use aileron to keep the ground track down the runway
and the rudders to keep the nose aligned with the center line. guess what,
that's a slip.
the use of "a little rudder to bring that tail around" has killed a lot of
people. remember a stall in an uncoordinated condition will lead to a spin,
and short final is no place to be practicing spins.
the only time that you should be flying the plane uncoordinated is when you
use the slip on purpose.
now for slow flight it is a coordinated turn, however, it will take more and
more right rudder (left if your flying behind m14 Russian engines) as the
plane slows down. you could get into a situation that requires right rudder
and left aileron to keep it coordinated in a left turn. it is very important
to keep the ball centered in slow flight. as you know if you do not keep the
ball centered and you get to that critical angle of attack and do stall
guess what, it will spin instead of just stalling, and that could ruin you
whole day.
R. Burns
"Eugene Boyle" <trump...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3AAE19AF...@home.com...
C J Campbell
coordinated. If there is a crosswind on final you may be crabbed into the
wind in order to fly a straight line. Once you are over the landing
threshold, however, you need to align the aircraft with the runway center
line in order to avoid side loading the gear on touchdown. (And, for the
nit-pickers, we are not talking about Ercoupes or Boeing 747s here --
presumably if you are flying these planes you will be taught the techniques
necessary to land them; many Ercoupes don't even have rudder pedals.)
Some instructors want you to fly all the way down final with the airplane
aligned with the runway in order to avoid having you make sudden corrections
in the landing flare. They have a point, particularly if you are also
limiting the usage of your flaps because of crosswinds. Typically such an
instructor will have you coming in high on your approach to allow for the
greater sink rate of your forward slip.
I personally prefer to maintain coordinated flight, however. It is too easy
to get into an uncoordinated stall on short final. As a newly minted
instructor, however, I will defer to the older hands here. Is it really that
difficult to teach a student to align the plane with the runway on
touchdown?
"Eugene Boyle" <trump...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3AAE19AF...@home.com...
Gene Whitt
As some of you may know, I have spent years trying
to find out why students tend to land on the left side
of the runway. I have heard from others their reasoning
but at last I believe I have found the cause. It is a part
of the weak-rudder syndrome.
I have been doing proficiency work for the checkride
with my 'Skipper' student. All at once ALL of his landings
are on the left side. I mandate that no touch downs are
to be made of the left side and that everytime this is about
to happen he should initiate a go-around. Just as well, he
needed to smooth out his go-around procedure.
On the ground before starting in a 'non-movement area' I
stand well in front of the plane that is centered on the yellow
taxi line. We work to locate a reference point on the cowling
to use for taxiing and landing center line reference. He starts
the engine and practices taxiing exactly on the line. He does
better.
Now when it comes to landings I find that, even though he
has been instructed to land on the right side of the runway
centerline, during the roundout he begins to drift left. Not
using the rudder when he raises the nose seems to be the
problem. The left turning tendency gets even wrose when
he raises the nose in the flare. He has not learned or remembered
about p-factor.
Again on the ground, I go through my P-factor lesson by
lowering the tail and having him note the change in propeller
pitch angle. It's like a light in his brain being turned on. After
a break and lunch, we go up to do some VOR tracking with
course reversals. After 15 minutes without the hood to get
a visual picture, I put him under the hood for half an hour.
His rudder work improves in leaps and bounds since I am
having him make course corrections of 10-degrees or less
using only the rudder. This takes considerable effort in a
Skipper because it is the most 'squirrley' aircraft I have ever
seen. I told him that after succeeding with the Skipper he
would have no difficulty in any other aircraft.
We will make one more flight before his checkride with the
emphasis upon landing accuracy. With his renewed understanding
I do not expect any problems.
The next day a former student asked to fly because of difficulty
in making crosswind landings. I mention that we will review
Dutch rolls and rudder use. We depart and once airborne I have
her fly only with rudder for forty miles. We make numerous
heading changes enroute and it appears she had become rudder
lazy. Landings start out on the left side and touchdown near
mid-field.
We work on airspeed control and rudder use. By the fourth landing
we are well within our 200' target area in both left and right traffic
with 12 knot crosswinds. Happy, happy.
Gene Whitt
hitting
Jim Fisher
> i'm on final (or practicing slow flight), that my primary steering
> should come from rudders. Other CFI's I've asked about this tell me
> that I still need to steer with ailerons and use rudder to align with
> the runway.
Your question is a little unclear to me. There is "slow flight" that uses
one set of maneuvers then there is your "final approach/roll-out" which uses
a different set of skills . . . sorta. It sounds to me like you may be
confusing the two skill sets.
When you're performing slow flight, KEEP THE BALL CENTERED (a review of the
"P-Factor" chapter in your study guide would be a good idea). The only way
you can do that in slow flight is to use right rudder pressure in order to
counteract the rotational forces of the slipstream that become evident
during slow flight. You are keeping the ailerons and rudder coordinated in
order to prevent a spin.
Then there's crosswind landings:
There are two types of crosswind landing techniques (that I know of,
anyway).
One technique is, while on final approach, keep the wings level and steer
the plane using rudder only to keep the plane *tracking* (NOT *aligned*
with) the extended centerline of the runway. The nose of the plane will be
pointing towards the wind - not at the runway in this maneuver.
At the last moment, just before the mains touch the runway, you "kick" out
(neutralize) the rudder and land the plane. In this case, you really are
"steering" with the rudder. Perhaps one of the CFI's you talked to uses
this approach.
The other much more popular technique is to use ailerons to steer into the
wind in order to TRACK the centerline of the runway. You then use opposite
rudder to ALIGN the plane with the centerline of the runway. The nose of
the plane will be pointed at the runway during the entire approach and the
upwind wing will be low but the planes central axis will be perfectly
aligned with the runway centerline. You actually land with the upwind wing
low then allow the downwind wing to settle to the runway as you lose
momentum.
Just before the main gear touches the pavement, you neutralize the rudder to
prevent the plane from either steering away from the wind or, in a worst
case, performing a groundloop. Those suck.
One of the best ways practice crosswind corrections is to make a low
approach over the runway at approach speed. Simply come in on final
normally then, about 50 feet above the runway, level off and fly down the
runway holding crosswind corrections the entire way. This is a great way to
get lots of crosswind practice with just one approach.
--
Jim Fisher
North Alabama
Cherokee 180
Jim Fisher
news:cYtr6.27140$Ac5.6261114@e3500->
> Just before the main gear touches the pavement, you neutralize the rudder
to
> prevent the plane from either steering away from the wind or, in a worst
> case, performing a groundloop. Those suck.
I meant "nose gear" instead of "main gear" up there.
Damn.
highflyer
I think "steering" is a misleading term here.
When you are flying near the stalling speed, you should pick up a wing
that starts to drop by using the rudders. You still use ailerons to
turn, and try hard to stay coordinated unless you are picking up a
falling wing. The coupling between yaw and roll will pick up a dropping
wing with the rudder. If the dropping wing is close to stall,
attempting
to pick it up with ailerons will lower the aileron on the dropping wing.
This increases the angle of attack near the tip and can push the tip
into a stall, causing it to drop even more. A rudder correction does
not do that and will cause the dropping wing to rise.
When landing, on final, you purposely forget about coordination. At
this time, you use aileron to drop a wing and slip the airplane to one
side or the other to keep the aircraft tracking over the extended
centerline of the runway. You do use a normal coordinated turn to get
it lined up in the first place. If the wind is drifting to one side
or the other, use aileron to slip it back into place.
Meanwhile, you use the rudders indepentantly to keep the nose of the
airplane pointed down the runway. You want the wheels to point down
the runway when you land. You also want the airplane to be moving
down the runway when you land.
I don't know if that clarified anything for you. :-)
--
HighFlyer
Highflight Aviation Services
highflyer
> One of the best ways practice crosswind corrections is to make a low
> approach over the runway at approach speed. Simply come in on final
> normally then, about 50 feet above the runway, level off and fly down the
> runway holding crosswind corrections the entire way. This is a great way to
> get lots of crosswind practice with just one approach.
>
>
I don't recommend nuetralizing the rudder if you need it to keep the
nose pointed down the runway. Leave the rudder in as needed until AFTER
the mains are down. You may nuetralize it before you lower the nose
wheel.
I fully agree about a low approach to a crosswind runway. It gives you
a chance to see how you are doing at a suitably low airspeed.
Jim Fisher
"highflyer" <high...@alt.net> wrote in message
news:3AAE8CC5...@alt.net...
>
> I don't recommend nuetralizing the rudder if you need it to keep the
> nose pointed down the runway. Leave the rudder in as needed until AFTER
> the mains are down. You may nuetralize it before you lower the nose
> wheel.
Haa!
I KNEW I'd get blasted for that comment. I posted a correction just after
the original post wherein I stated that I meant to say "nose gear" instead
of main gear. Nobody will see that, of course. ;)
Kristi9876
WAS my lesson the other day. :-)) Thanks for the help!
I find that I can maintain the correct aileron and rudder inputs all the way up
to the flare. When I flare, I tend to lose directional control, especially if
there is a variable crosswind. I don't seem to have the right feel for how to
dance on the rudder pedals and move the ailerons to keep the plane where I want
it to be. At this point, when the plane lands well in a x-wind I'm surprised
because I don't understand exactly what I did to make it work. Same for when it
is not quite as picturesque. I figure it will get better with more practice.
Kristi
robert a.barker
Bob Barker
"Jim Fisher" <Varsi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:Lqwr6.27813$Ac5.6...@e3500-chi1.usenetserver.com...
robert a.barker
Bob Barker
"Jim Fisher" <Varsi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:Lqwr6.27813$Ac5.6...@e3500-chi1.usenetserver.com...
>
Gerry Preston
find. Thanks, Jim, it was very helpful. We seem to have lots of windy days in
North Texas and at 40 hours I'm still working hard to improve those cross-wind
landings.
Gerry Preston
lucien stavenhagen
I was taught to align the fuselage with the ground track using the rudder
and adjust lateral movement (via side-slipping) using the ailerons. This
seemed to be the most effective approach for me and is still the basic
technique I use when flying 3-axis aircraft.
What also helped was lots of practice in the following:
1) rudder-only turns. In a conventional plane like a 150, rudder-only turns
can be pretty messy, particularly the steeper you do them, making them
excellent practice at getting the feel for how the rudder behaves in your
particular aircraft. After a while, I got to where I liked this so much, I
couldn't help myself ;) In fact, I did several cross-countries using only
the rudder enroute to maintain my heading, as well as control bank.
2) slips. I practiced these (at altitude) while both maintaining a
particular ground track with the nose pointed to one side and moving
laterally a desired degree while maintaining fuselage alignment with a
"runway" (such as a road or other landmark). The intent here was to learn
control of ground track and yaw (as well as airspeed) when flying in an
uncoordinated condition. Both of these skills come into play, in my
experience, during landings (particularly crosswind landings).
3) lots of landings, practicing both forward slips to a landing and
crosswind landings.
Recently I transitioned to weight-shift aircraft (all controls backwards, no
rudder), so all that work I did learning no 1 and 2 had to go out the window
and I had to relearn 3 all over again......
Anyway, those are some things that helped me,
LS
AC fun racer.
Shawn D. Gahring
Both ways work to get the plane down. Most of the people on the
thread appear to prefer the wing-low method (align ground track
with ailerons, align airplane axis with rudder, aka a forward
slip). The biggest reason I've seen instructors teach this method
is because you can set up your crosswind corrections further out
on final. It's easier to teach this method because you aren't
making a last minute judgement about how much to kick the tail
around (and thereby risking over- or under-controlling in the
flare). I fly with a pretty good mix of pilots in the squadron,
and I'd say 75 to 80 percent of the guys use the wing-low method
(and our plane isn't very forgiving for having bank angle in at
touchdown--4 degrees of bank and you've scraped an engine pod).
Bottom line is use which ever way you are more comfortable with--if
you develop a good feel for how much rudder input to give, crabbing
until the last minute will make your leg less tired. If you'd
prefer to have as few variables as possible in the flare, the wing-
low method works.
Shawn
highflyer
Actually, Jim, I saw the correction. Just AFTER I pointed out the
correction! It is important that we don't give student pilots bad or
misleading information. They have enough troubles understanding the
right stuff! :-)
Roger Halstead
> Thanks John. Your explanation makes a hell of lot of sense, and jibes
with my
> instincts on the subject. I've decided not to fly again with the
instructor
> who was basically teaching me to turn by un-coordinating the plane.
>
> Gene
>
> J&D Kahn wrote:
>
> > I drill this into my glider students: The rudder has *nothing* do with
> > steering the airplane! Airplanes turn by banking, which is done with
> > aileron.
> >
In close formation flying you will find that *small* corrections are done
with the rudder only.
Now, there is where you *really* notice slight changes. <:-))
Unfortunately I havent flown within 50 feet of another airplane in nearly
three years, so I'd need to go back for a refresher course before even
attempting to get that close now.
"Sometimes" instructors will have students who are over correcting when
flying an ILS use only the rudder. There is a place for this type of
flying, but it is rather limited.
I've found that when the change is tiny (or trying to quit over correcting),
then use the rudder, but for anything more than slight positional changes I
do coordinated moves.
<Good info on "normal" flying. snipped>
> >
> > Then there's the problem of students never learning that elevator is the
> > primary speed control and that trim is in the end a speed setting
device.
> > But that's another debate...
As the Air Safety Foundation pointed out, it can be done either way and
equally successful.
As to trim, I always trim for speed and not AOA.
As I don't know theAOA and I can monitor airspeed...it works. <:-))
Roger Halstead (K8RI)
WWW.RogerHalstead.com
N833R (World's Oldest Debonair? S# CD-2)
> >
> > John
> >
> > Eugene Boyle <trump...@home.com> wrote in message
> > news:3AAE19AF...@home.com...
Eugene Boyle
instincts on the subject. I've decided not to fly again with the instructor
who was basically teaching me to turn by un-coordinating the plane.
Gene
J&D Kahn wrote:
> I drill this into my glider students: The rudder has *nothing* do with
> steering the airplane! Airplanes turn by banking, which is done with
> aileron.
>
> The rudder's job is to help the vertical fin do its job of being a weather
> vane, to keep the tail lined up behind the nose as indicated by a centered
> ball (or yaw string).
>
> OR it can be used to deliberately move the tail OUT of alignment with the
> nose to increase drag (forward slip) or to make the airplane drift laterally
> by lowering a wing while yawing the airplane to keep it aligned with the
> runway to counteract crosswind without crabbing (remember that when
> sideslipping for drift you are tracking along the runway centerline but to
> the airplane it only knows that it is being made to slide sideways; you are
> only tracking straight because the wind is counteracting the sideways
> movement).
>
> Unless a forward slip is deliberately required to loose altitude or a
> sideslip required to counteract for a crosswind in the last 50 feet (I
> believe in crabbing to 50 feet, then establishing the slip to counter
> crosswind drift; the amount of slip required is indicated by the amount of
> crab required, so the transition is easy), ALL turns, on approach or
> anywhere, are to be coordinated, ball-centered turns. Remember, if the
> airplane has no adverse yaw when ailerons are applied, rudder application is
> not required at all for turns.
>
> If you have a crab angle set up on final, and find it is not enough, it is
> bad form to try to yaw the airplane to point it more upwind; you are making
> it skid. Skid manouevers when you are trying to control direction (except
> skidding turns for altitude loss) are not a good idea at low altitude. You
> increase the crab angle by making a brief coordinated turn, and decrease
> the crab angle with a brief coordinated turn.
>
> This a major problem for students that carry into their training the
> layperson's misconception that the rudder has something to do with turning,
> like the rudder on a boat.
>
> I've lost count of the students I've had that instinctively yaw the airplane
> to point it where they want it to go when they overshoot the turn to final.
> There they are skidding along in a sailplane, at low speed and low altitude,
> that will spin at the drop of a hat. They don't do it more than once or
> twice with me behind them.
>
> When a student understands that airplane is always to be pointed by using
> banked, ball centered turns to achieve a desired heading, and that cross
> control inputs are strictly for slips for drift correction/altitude loss,
> he/she is well underway to being innoculated against stall/spin accidents on
> final.
>
> Then there's the problem of students never learning that elevator is the
> primary speed control and that trim is in the end a speed setting device.
> But that's another debate...
>
> John
>
> Eugene Boyle <trump...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:3AAE19AF...@home.com...
Andrew Puddifer
scary!
Regards, Andrew.
Eugene Boyle wrote:
>
> What's a "weight shift" aircraft???
>
Eugene Boyle
J&D Kahn
John
J&D Kahn
> Thanks John. Your explanation makes a hell of lot of sense, and jibes
with my
> instincts on the subject. I've decided not to fly again with the
instructor
> who was basically teaching me to turn by un-coordinating the plane.
>
> Gene
>
> J&D Kahn wrote:
>
> >
> > If you have a crab angle set up on final, and find it is not enough, it
is
> > bad form to try to yaw the airplane to point it more upwind; you are
making
> > it skid. Skid manouevers when you are trying to control direction
(except
> > skidding turns for altitude loss) are not a good idea at low altitude.
You
> > increase the crab angle by making a brief coordinated turn, and
decrease
> > the crab angle with a brief coordinated turn.
I'm flattered to have made a difference...
Note in my paragraph above... I said "(except skidding turns for altitude
loss)" should have read "(except slipping turns for altitude loss)". You
never deliberately skid in a turn, but you can slip in a turn to loose
altitude while turning.
John
J&D Kahn
> I've found that when the change is tiny (or trying to quit over
correcting),
> then use the rudder, but for anything more than slight positional changes
I
> do coordinated moves.
>
I forgot to mention the exception of skidding for lateral corrections in
formation. In fact, the tow in gliding is exactly that, very tight
formation flying, but with the speed equation taken care of. And yes in
those circumstances I teach the use of skidding movements for very fine
lateral corrections.
I have often been flying along on power planes on nice smooth days using
little rudder inputs to stay on course, but in that case you are using
rudder to initiate a bank by making very small skidding movements, small
enough so the yawing motion isn't apparent. When I was bush flying on
smooth fall afternoons under stratus layers I'd fold my hands and make
little corrections with rudder alone, but is was actually using rudder to
make small banking corrections.. The uncoordinated condition is so minor
the passengers are unwaware of it. My passenger seeing no hands on the
wheel would invariably would say "Geee I didn't know these little bush
plane's had autopilots."
>
> > >
> > > Then there's the problem of students never learning that elevator is
the
> > > primary speed control and that trim is in the end a speed setting
> device.
> > > But that's another debate...
>
> As the Air Safety Foundation pointed out, it can be done either way and
> equally successful.
>
> As to trim, I always trim for speed and not AOA.
> As I don't know theAOA and I can monitor airspeed...it works. <:-))
>
This is my favorite discussion topic:
There are basically two conditions that define use of pitch in my opinion.
When altitude or a glide slope is a priority goal, you pitch to altitude.
When speed is the priority, you pitch to speed.
However, aerodynamically, the elevator is the only determinant of speed in
the end. If you lock the elevator in a certain position, the airplane will
only fly at one speed for a given loading condition (adding power, with a
tractor configuration, will actually make the airplane slow down, not speed
up, because of the effect of the faster slipstream). You simply cannot
change airspeed without changing elevator position. Changing power does not
change speed unless the elevator is moved to allow the aircraft to
accelerate to that speed.
Glider students learn this immediately because it is obvious at the start
that speed is related to stick position, so they develop the correct
instincts early that speeding up requires forward movement of the controls,
whether there is power or not.
John