"Routine" pre-takeoff leaning of Cessna 150? Safe? Legal?
Robert L Bass
FlyC150 wrote:
>
> "Routine" pre-takeoff leaning of Cessna 150? Safe? Legal?
>
> Student pilot question:
>
> What do you pilots think of a Cessna 150 (engine: Continental 0-200A) that
> suddenly developed an in-flight mixture problem (too rich) which now makes
> pre-takeoff leaning a necessity for EVERY flight, even at SEA LEVEL?
>
> This for-hire aircraft, which is rented to student pilots on a daily
> basis, suddenly developed this problem (too rich mixture) and made it
> necessary for the pilot to lean the mixture at just 300 feet MSL to keep
> the engine running. The problem was reported to the aircraft
> operator/owner, but he has refused to have the airplane taken out of
> service to have the carburetor re-calibrated (which I assume is what it
> needs). Instead, he is telling all renter pilots (including students) to
> lean the mixture for peak rpm prior to takeoff, even though this field is
> at sea level.
I'm only a student pilot so my knowledge is very limited on this.
However, I have a simple policy about all airplanes -- not just rental
airplanes. If I'm not 100% sure I trust the airplane, I don't fly it.
There's an airplane at our school bearing "HJ" at the end of its tail
number. It has been aptly nicknamed "Hunk of Junk." They tell me it's
airworthy. It has the certificate. The plane is legal. But every time
I got into that bucket I was nervous about it's age and condition. The
school has 5 other airplanes, so I dont fly HJ. Simple.
Blue Skies,
RLBass
.............................................
. Bass Home Electronics .
. 80 Bentwood Road, W Hartford, CT 06107 .
. http://www.BassHome.com .
. Voice (860) 561-2020 | Fax (860) 521-2143 .
.............................................
Mike Wei
IMHO, the owner of the FBO should take that aircraft off the service and
do a engine/carburator check. I would stay away which that aircraft.
However, it's not abnormal to lean during taxi even at sea level,
especially in hot and humid days. When density altitude is high,
there're less oxygen molecules in a given volume of air. A too rich
fuel/air mix will lead to incomplete combustion and cause carbon deposit
on the magnetos. I've had this experience twice this summer when
magnetos were fouled by carbon deposit during taxi. My instructor told
me to lean the engine during taxi when density altitude is high.
-Mike
FlyC150 wrote:
>
> "Routine" pre-takeoff leaning of Cessna 150? Safe? Legal?
>
> Student pilot question:
>
> What do you pilots think of a Cessna 150 (engine: Continental 0-200A) that
> suddenly developed an in-flight mixture problem (too rich) which now makes
> pre-takeoff leaning a necessity for EVERY flight, even at SEA LEVEL?
>
> This for-hire aircraft, which is rented to student pilots on a daily
> basis, suddenly developed this problem (too rich mixture) and made it
> necessary for the pilot to lean the mixture at just 300 feet MSL to keep
> the engine running. The problem was reported to the aircraft
> operator/owner, but he has refused to have the airplane taken out of
> service to have the carburetor re-calibrated (which I assume is what it
> needs). Instead, he is telling all renter pilots (including students) to
> lean the mixture for peak rpm prior to takeoff, even though this field is
> at sea level.
>
> My question is, do you pilots think this is a good procedure? I mean,
> having to lean the mixture before every takeoff at sea level? Granted, with
> the ambient temperatures often being in the mid to upper 90s here, the
> density altitude is often approaching 3,000 feet (where leaning might be
> appropriate), but would you consider it to be a safe or advisable practice
> to continue to fly an airplane which HAS to be leaned before every flight,
> even at sea level, when such a thing was never necessary with this
> particular airplane prior to the sudden onset of the (apparent) problem
> with the carburetor calibration?
>
> Wouldn't it be prudent for the operator/owner of this aircraft to remove
> it from service so that proper maintenance can be performed so that the
> airplane can be operated as it was intended? I mean, there is no mention in
> the POH about "routine" (every-flight) pre-takeoff leaning at SEA LEVEL (no
> matter how high the ambient temperature), so in a sense, isn't this type of
> operation contradictory to the POH? Aren't we, as pilots, required by LAW
> to operate the aircraft in compliance with the POH?
>
> Of course, if a problem develops suddenly, a deviation from the POH would
> be advisable AND legal, but what do you think of the day-to-day operation
> of an aircraft that has a KNOWN mechanical problem (carburetor out of
> calibration, causing excessive rich mixture) which mandates that pilots fly
> the aircraft in a manner not in compliance with the POH?
>
> The owner/operator of this airplane totally dismisses my concerns, and
> says: "There's a lot about flying that you won't find in that POH," then he
> adds, "There's also a lot about flying you won't find in the FARs." I
> agree, but I find this attitude pretty cavalier, especially when it comes
> to student pilots renting his aircraft.
>
> So, is it me (am I just TOO cautious, or just too concerned where
> absolutely no other reasonable pilot would be concerned), or is it the
> owner/operator who's got it wrong (by refusing to have the carburetor
> serviced, and insisting that renter pilots lean the mixture before every
> flight in a manner that is not prescribed in the POH? (The book says full
> rich for takeoff and landing below 3,000 feet, so how can this checklist
> item be followed if the engine won't even run at 300 feet MSL unless it's
> leaned out?
>
> Would really appreciate your opinions on this. Should I tell the
> owner/operator he's all wet, or say to him, "Sorry. Guess you know what you
> are talking about after all. Teach me how to lean that sucker out so I can
> get back up there and continue my solo practice"?
>
> Thanks for your help with this matter!
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Mike Wei
Americans: Seem to believe that poverty & failure are morally suspect.
Canadians: Seem to believe that wealth and success are morally suspect.
Brits: Seem to believe that wealth, poverty, success and failure
are inherited things.
Don Meyer
Robert L Bass <alar...@BassHome.com> wrote:
>FlyC150 wrote:
>>
>> What do you pilots think of a Cessna 150 (engine: Continental 0-200A) that
>> suddenly developed an in-flight mixture problem (too rich) which now makes
>> pre-takeoff leaning a necessity for EVERY flight, even at SEA LEVEL?
>I'm only a student pilot so my knowledge is very limited on this.
>However, I have a simple policy about all airplanes -- not just rental
>airplanes. If I'm not 100% sure I trust the airplane, I don't fly it.
>There's an airplane at our school bearing "HJ" at the end of its tail
>number. It has been aptly nicknamed "Hunk of Junk." They tell me it's
>airworthy. It has the certificate. The plane is legal. But every time
>I got into that bucket I was nervous about it's age and condition. The
>school has 5 other airplanes, so I dont fly HJ. Simple.
My school has one also. It's not rigged right - want's to fly to the
right. After my one unpleasant lesson in it, I made the same decision - I
don't fly that one. I'm sure it's airworthy, and a problem that an
experience pilot might not think twice about, but as a student I'm having
enough trouble without compensating for an odd airplane! :-)
Age doesn't bother me unless there are obviously things needed to be
replaced/rebuilt.
Don Meyer
me...@vitek.com
rra...@courant.infi.net.nospam
"Josef Frisch" <fri...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>I would not fly that airplane until it was fixed. In fact, I will make a
>stronger
>statement, and say that I would find a new FBO and instructor, if they
>are allowing an airplane to be flown in that condition. I think that the
>attitude
>that the POH and FARs are not particularly important is very dangerous.
>One of my instructors told me that whenever you are making a go / no-go
>decision,
>think of what you will tell the accident investigators: " well sir, I knew
>that the
>aircraft had an engine problem, but I figured that with my vast experience
>as a
>student pilot, I would be able to manually adjust the mixture to keep the
>engine
>running during a go-around".
>I don't know where you are flying, but I hope you can find a different FBO.
Amen to that- I also believe only a licensed A & P should be dealing
with mechanical problems. Let the FBO operator deal with keeping a
supply of coffee cups and donuts on hand.
A CFI I know landed upside-down in someones yard after tearing up some
power lines because a FBO owner decided he was a A & P.
Evidently the plane had water and dirt in the fuel tanks. The manager
sumped the tanks clean, ran it for 2 minutes at 100%, and pronounced
it airworthy. The water and sludge had formed a flat donut with the
central hole around the sump drains and fuel inlet, allowing the fuel
samples to be clean.
On takeoff, the vibration broke up the donut of water and dirt,
allowing contamination to enter the fuels lines. Presto, engine out
at 300' after takeoff.
Lessons:
1. Never assume somebody is qualified to make a safety-related
judgement until you confirm their competence. And even then, a little
paranoia is a good.
2. When theres crud in the tanks, take the bus. Let the A&P check it
over. The POH indicated complete draining of the fuel system should
have been done, and by an A&P.
I would even go one better- this operator sounds dangerous. What else
is he ignoring? How about AD compliance? For my $.02 worth, find
another FBO, AND report this guy to the FAA before he kills somebody.
IMHO.
Delete the "nospam" domain for my e-mail address.
Happy Flying!
Ron Natalie
FlyC150 wrote:
>
> What do you pilots think of a Cessna 150 (engine: Continental 0-200A) that
> suddenly developed an in-flight mixture problem (too rich) which now makes
> pre-takeoff leaning a necessity for EVERY flight, even at SEA LEVEL?
>
>
rra...@courant.infi.net.nospam
fly...@aol.com (FlyC150) wrote:
>"Routine" pre-takeoff leaning of Cessna 150? Safe? Legal?
>Student pilot question:
>What do you pilots think of a Cessna 150 (engine: Continental 0-200A) that
>suddenly developed an in-flight mixture problem (too rich) which now makes
>pre-takeoff leaning a necessity for EVERY flight, even at SEA LEVEL?
>This for-hire aircraft, which is rented to student pilots on a daily
IMHO, I would get a new FBO and report this guy to the FAA before he
kills somebody. Who knows what other things (like AD compliance) he
cuts corners on.
I know of a CFI almost killed by a FBO operator who thought he was an
A&P, and also cut corners. A 152 had water and dirt in the tanks
(Because the FBO wasn't maintaining the storage tanks properly). The
plane died on taxi, the CFI brought it to the attention of the FBO
operator.
The FBO operator, thinking he was an A&P, sumps the tanks clean, runs
it at 100% for 2 minutes, and pronounces it airworhty.
The sludge and water had formed a horizontal donut around the sump and
fuel inlet, allowing the fuel samples to be clean. On takeoff, the
donut broke up from the vibration. The engine sucked in the crud,
and quit at 300'. The plane crashed in somebodies yard, fortunately
no serious injuries.
Errors:
1. The FBO operator was not qualified to pronounce the plane airwothy.
The POH says drain the entire fuel system.
2. The CFI assumed the FBO op was competent and qualified. Never
assume somebody is qualified to make a safety-related decision on
blind faith.
3. If there is crud in the tanks, don't push it. Take the bus.
rra...@courant.infi.net
FlyC150
Josef Frisch
I would not fly that airplane until it was fixed. In fact, I will make a
stronger
statement, and say that I would find a new FBO and instructor, if they
are allowing an airplane to be flown in that condition. I think that the
attitude
that the POH and FARs are not particularly important is very dangerous.
One of my instructors told me that whenever you are making a go / no-go
decision,
think of what you will tell the accident investigators: " well sir, I knew
that the
aircraft had an engine problem, but I figured that with my vast experience
as a
student pilot, I would be able to manually adjust the mixture to keep the
engine
running during a go-around".
I don't know where you are flying, but I hope you can find a different FBO.
Good luck.
--- Joe Frisch : note, I am NOT a CFI.
FlyC150 <fly...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970902022...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
>
> "Routine" pre-takeoff leaning of Cessna 150? Safe? Legal?
>
> Student pilot question:
>
> What do you pilots think of a Cessna 150 (engine: Continental 0-200A)
that
> suddenly developed an in-flight mixture problem (too rich) which now
makes
> pre-takeoff leaning a necessity for EVERY flight, even at SEA LEVEL?
>
> This for-hire aircraft, which is rented to student pilots on a daily
> basis, suddenly developed this problem (too rich mixture) and made it
> necessary for the pilot to lean the mixture at just 300 feet MSL to keep
> the engine running. The problem was reported to the aircraft
> operator/owner, but he has refused to have the airplane taken out of
> service to have the carburetor re-calibrated (which I assume is what it
> needs). Instead, he is telling all renter pilots (including students) to
> lean the mixture for peak rpm prior to takeoff, even though this field is
> at sea level.
(snip)
FlyC150
Thanks to all of you who replied -- you verified what I thought and feared.
I wrote to Continental (who manufactured the engine), and one of their
engineers called me to talk about the problem for about 20 minutes. He
agrees with most of you, that this is NOT routine operation and that the
aircraft should be pulled from service for proper maintenance. He was kind
enough to offer his name and number so that the aircraft owner/operator
could call him and talk about what needs to be done and set him straight. I
doubt the conversation will ever take place, as the owner/operator is
always conveniently out of town or just walking out the door whenever I
want to talk to him (and he's getting even harder to find, as he now pretty
well knows what I plan to tell him, I guess!")
But get this, fellow pilots: I learned just today from one of the flight
school's CFIs that the offending aircraft has been sold! This tells me a
lot, especially since the school now has no 2-place trainer for its 15 or
so primary students who must now use the $20-per-hour-more Cherokee.
Anyway, I'm no longer there, as I've enrolled in the Part 141 school across
the field (five 152s which appear to be well maintained).
Still awaiting opinion from the FSDO, but guess it will probably hold with
the majority of writers in this thread and with the guy from Continental.
Again, thanks to all of you for writing, and letting me know that I'm not
as stupid as that C150's owner/operator tries to make me look.
I'll post the FAA's opinion to this group when I get it.
See y'all! -- flyc150@aolcom
Roy Smith
Mike Wei <w...@research.bell-labs.com> wrote:
> However, it's not abnormal to lean during taxi even at sea level,
> especially in hot and humid days. When density altitude is high,
> there're less oxygen molecules in a given volume of air. A too rich
> fuel/air mix will lead to incomplete combustion and cause carbon deposit
> on the magnetos. I've had this experience twice this summer when
> magnetos were fouled by carbon deposit during taxi. My instructor told
> me to lean the engine during taxi when density altitude is high.
Actually, it's the spark plugs which get carbon deposits on them, not the
magnetos. And, yes, leaning for taxi is always a good idea, for exactly
that reason (even at sea level). No need to be precise about it like you
are when leaning for cruise; just pull the mixture back a bit so you're not
dumping quite so much fuel into the thing.
But, that's a long way from having a carb/engine which is so out of whack
that it will cease running when you shove the mixture in full. Part of my
ground check includes seeing if the engine will run at idle with the
throttle full back and the carb heat on. If not, there's something wrong.
Don Meyer
garn...@mindspring.com (Garner Miller) wrote:
>In article <340f6dc8...@vtkstl.vitek.com>, me...@vitek.com wrote:
>
>> My school has one also. It's not rigged right - want's to fly to the
>> right. After my one unpleasant lesson in it, I made the same decision - I
>> don't fly that one.
>
>One of our planes did that until someone notified me, and I adjusted the
>manual external rudder trim tab. The solution's not ALWAYS that easy
>(some planes will then fly hands-off level, but with the ball off to one
>side; that means it really IS out of rig), but sometimes it is.
>
>I generally ask renters/students not to do the adjustments themselves
>because I've had a couple broken off. But if you rent one that's leaning
>to one side, let the operator know. It's definitely worth checking into
>if it's severe.
One of the CFI's did squawk it shortly thereafter, which made me feel
better.
Don Meyer
me...@vitek.com