Taxiing in xwind
Mike Regish
coming from the right when I was in position to take off. As I was back
taxiing I went to put the aileron controls into the wind (to my left as I
was back taxiing) and my CFI grabbed the yoke and pushed it back to the
right saying that when I turned around into takeoff position they would be
in the right position, which they were. The way I read the book and the way
that makes sense to me is to ALWAYS keep the controls into the xwind. It's
no big deal to turn the controls the other way when I turn around. Again,
after our last full stop landing of the day, I was taxiing back (xwind
coming from my left) and went to turn the controls to the left into the wind
and he grabbed them and put them the other way (to the right). I didn't want
to argue about it and the wind didn't feel strong enough to pick up the
wing, so I let it go, but I'm really wondering who's right. I'm pretty sure
I am, but I'm wondering if there are any other opinions on this.
TIA. I'm at about 13 hours...and climbing.
--
Mike Regish
http://members.tripod.com/~mike534
LFeb
The way I understand the procedure works is this; right xwind *from the front
quarter* you turn into the wind (elevator neutral). Right xwind *from the rear
quarter* you turn away from the wind (with down elevator). Left xwind *from the
rear quarter* you turn away from the wind (with down elevator). Left xwind
*from the front quarter* you turn into the wind (elevator neutral). By "turn" I
mean turn ailerons. Perhaps you found yourself with a cross wind coming at you
from the rear. That would explain your instructor's reaction. But I must tell
you, I'm a student with fewer hours than you, so please triple check on this!
Louis Febre
Mike Regish
behind (it's an angled taxiway)so, when I got onto the runway it was a
quartering tailwind from the left. That would make sense to turn away from
the wind. When we did our last full stop landing and were taxiing off the
runway, the wind was 90 deg. across the runway so the relative wind would
have been a quartering headwind from the left. Looking at the down aileron
on the left wing just looked like it was begging to be picked up. I think I
should have been turning into the wind for that. I was just holding the
elevator neutral. Down elevator makes sense as it would take some pressure
off the nosewheel.
Thanks.
--
Mike Regish
http://members.tripod.com/~mike534
LFeb wrote in message <19981029131649...@ng144.aol.com>...
Cary N. Mariash
the wind is comming from the right and is in front of you, you want to turn the
yoke into the wind (this will raise the right aileron and keep the right wing
down). If the wind is from the right and behind you, you want to turn the yoke
to the left (this will lower the right aileron and keep the wind from lifting
the right wing).
Hope this helps.
Cary
Mike Regish wrote:
> --
> Mike Regish
> http://members.tripod.com/~mike534
--
Cary N. Mariash
CP-ASMEL/IA
N500QB (1958 C310B)
http://www.cbc.med.umn.edu/~cary/flywell.html
Ron Natalie
>
> I was back taxiing to takeoff position in a xwind yesterday. The xwind was
> coming from the right when I was in position to take off. As I was back
> taxiing I went to put the aileron controls into the wind (to my left as I
> was back taxiing) and my CFI grabbed the yoke and pushed it back to the
> right saying that when I turned around into takeoff position they would be
> in the right position, which they were.
You CFI is wrong. Keep the proper crosswind inputs while
taxiing (based on where the wind is relative to you at
the instant) as you turn the aircraft move the controls to
the appropriate position as the relative wind shifts.
Your instructor must be a real hoot in a taildragger.
Dane Spearing
The easy way to remember how to hold the controls while taxiing
can be summed up at:
"Climb in to a headwind, dive away from a tailwind".
-- Dane
Mike Regish writes:
>I was back taxiing to takeoff position in a xwind yesterday. The xwind was
>coming from the right when I was in position to take off. As I was back
>taxiing I went to put the aileron controls into the wind (to my left as I
>was back taxiing) and my CFI grabbed the yoke and pushed it back to the
>right saying that when I turned around into takeoff position they would be
Mike Regish
quartering from the left. The second instance, I think I should have been
turning the ailerons into the xwind since the relative wind was a quartering
headwind. I'll have to go over it with him since that was the first time it
came up.
--
Mike Regish
http://members.tripod.com/~mike534
Ron Natalie wrote in message <3638BAA7...@sensor.com>...
>Mike Regish wrote:
>>
>> I was back taxiing to takeoff position in a xwind yesterday. The xwind
was
>> coming from the right when I was in position to take off. As I was back
>> taxiing I went to put the aileron controls into the wind (to my left as I
>> was back taxiing) and my CFI grabbed the yoke and pushed it back to the
>> right saying that when I turned around into takeoff position they would
be
>> in the right position, which they were.
>
Ron Natalie
coming from 45 on a North-South runway. As you back taxi
for take off, you are going to have the wind coming from
your back left. You want to turn the wheel to the right and
push forward (DIVE AWAY FROM THE WIND). On your takeoff
run the wind will be from your front right, Start with the
aileron deflected to the right and slowly roll it out as
you gain speed.
If your instructor tells you to put the takeoff control
settings in on taxi to you don't have to change them, that's
wrong.
If you had the yoke turned towards the wind with a tailwind
you were wron.
Andrew Gideon
In article <3638D108...@sensor.com>, Ron Natalie <r...@sensor.com> writes:
> Start with the
>aileron deflected to the right and slowly roll it out as
>you gain speed.
I've read this, but I've yet to try it. When I read it,
I wondered how one'd know how quickly to "roll it out".
- Andrew
Mike Regish
the plane will start to roll. You don't want to do too much of that on the
ground. It wasn't bad when doing touch and go's cause I never really got to
full aileron deflection. It was a little trickier from a takeoff from full
stop. I did it ok, though it wasn't really pretty. Needs those 3 most
important things: practice, practice and more practice...
--
Mike Regish
http://members.tripod.com/~mike534
Andrew Gideon wrote in message <71anrh$s...@dixie.tagsys.com>...
Bluestr...@webtv.net
J L Bolinger
>
>I was back taxiing to takeoff position in a xwind yesterday. The xwind was
>coming from the right when I was in position to take off. As I was back
>taxiing I went to put the aileron controls into the wind (to my left as I
>was back taxiing) and my CFI grabbed the yoke and pushed it back to the
>right saying that when I turned around into takeoff position they would be
>that makes sense to me is to ALWAYS keep the controls into the xwind. It's
>no big deal to turn the controls the other way when I turn around. Again,
>after our last full stop landing of the day, I was taxiing back (xwind
>coming from my left) and went to turn the controls to the left into the wind
>and he grabbed them and put them the other way (to the right). I didn't want
>to argue about it and the wind didn't feel strong enough to pick up the
>wing, so I let it go, but I'm really wondering who's right. I'm pretty sure
>I am, but I'm wondering if there are any other opinions on this.
>
>
>--
The difference is that when landing the wind is from the front, but when
you turned around it became a quartering tail wind.
The way I learned it is: Tail winds are bad...dive away from them.
Head winds are good...climb into them.
(This is when taxiing on the ground of course)
What this means is that with a quartering tail wind turn the wheel away
from the direction the wind is from, and push it forward. With a quartering
headwind, turn the wheel towards the wind and pull back.
Some textbooks do not mention pushing the wheel forward with a tail wind
except in a trail dragger. Does anyone with more experience know if this
will help or hurt in a tricycle gear plane?
Jim
Dave Mould
> I was back taxiing to takeoff position in a xwind yesterday. The xwind was
> coming from the right when I was in position to take off. As I was back
> taxiing I went to put the aileron controls into the wind (to my left as I
> was back taxiing) and my CFI grabbed the yoke and pushed it back to the
> right saying that when I turned around into takeoff position they would be
> in the right position, which they were. The way I read the book and the way
> that makes sense to me is to ALWAYS keep the controls into the xwind. It's
> no big deal to turn the controls the other way when I turn around. Again,
> after our last full stop landing of the day, I was taxiing back (xwind
> coming from my left) and went to turn the controls to the left into the wind
> and he grabbed them and put them the other way (to the right). I didn't want
> to argue about it and the wind didn't feel strong enough to pick up the
> wing, so I let it go, but I'm really wondering who's right. I'm pretty sure
> I am, but I'm wondering if there are any other opinions on this.
With the wind coming from behind the tail, ailerons AFAIK are turned
*downwind,* because they are acting "in reverse" and you need to keep the
upwind wing down. OTOH the wind would need to be exceptional before it would
roll an aircraft at taxy speeds on the ground - so aileron position is
probably not the main concern. YMMV depending on aircraft type. Elevator
position is more complex, because the propwash may be stronger than the wind.
I'll usually keep it neutral unless the tailwind is extremely strong. A
strong (>25Kts) tailwind is "interesting" in my taildragger, because it's
difficult to hold the controls in any position! Stick and rudder forces are
extremely high, and even using both hands the stick gets snatched this way and
that. The tail gets pushed around quite a bit, so I avoid congested areas!
I'll take grass whenever I can in these circumstances so that I can use power
to advantage. If things get a bit out of hand, a counter-intuitive "gunning"
of the throttle will usually supply enough rudder and elevator authority to
correct.
When taxying or after roll-out with a X-wind, a turn *downwind* gives better
control, because it makes aircraft try to roll into wind. (On the ground, an
aircraft rolls towards the *outside* of the turn).
Dave Mould
Ron Natalie
> I've read this, but I've yet to try it. When I read it,
> I wondered how one'd know how quickly to "roll it out".
>
You get a feel for it...as the airplane begins to
accelerate and the ailerons become more effective you'll
feel it start to bank towards the wheel (and you'll get
used to the feed back through the yoke). Just keep
the wings level and everything will be fine.
HLAviation
>the wings level and everything will be fine.
No, when the downwind wing wants to come up you let it. You should be taking
of in the same sideslip configuraion that you'd use landing in a cross wind.
Rudder to keep you lined up, bank to keep you from going sideways. Get a litte
tailwheel time you'll understand real quick.
HLAviation
>except in a trail dragger. Does anyone with more experience know if this
>will help or hurt in a tricycle gear plane?
>
>
It still applies, although it's easier to flip over a plane with conventional
gear.
Roger Halstead
--
Roger Halstead K8RI and EAA Chapter 1093 Historian
N833R World's oldest Debonair? S# CD-2
http://members.tm.net/rdhalste
HLAviation wrote in message <19981030100600...@ng73.aol.com>...
Just remember the old mantra... Dive away and turn into... If the wind is
from the rear aileron and rudder inputs should be to "dive away" from the
wind and of course when it is a head wind it is turn into, or toward the
wind.
Roger
John Stephens
>
>The difference is that when landing the wind is from the front, but when
>you turned around it became a quartering tail wind.
>
>The way I learned it is: Tail winds are bad...dive away from them.
> Head winds are good...climb into them.
> (This is when taxiing on the ground of course)
>
>What this means is that with a quartering tail wind turn the wheel away
>from the direction the wind is from, and push it forward. With a quartering
>headwind, turn the wheel towards the wind and pull back.
>
>except in a trail dragger. Does anyone with more experience know if this
>will help or hurt in a tricycle gear plane?
>
Do it in a trike as well!
Both types react the same way -- it's just more critical in a taildragger,
as the CG is behind the main gear.
--
John Stephens (remove spaces for legal email address)
s t e p h e n s @ p o b o x . c o m
John Stephens
>Andrew Gideon wrote:
>
>> I've read this, but I've yet to try it. When I read it,
>> I wondered how one'd know how quickly to "roll it out".
>>
>
>You get a feel for it...as the airplane begins to
>accelerate and the ailerons become more effective you'll
>feel it start to bank towards the wheel (and you'll get
>used to the feed back through the yoke). Just keep
>the wings level and everything will be fine.
Another clue (before any banking tendency becomes apparent) is that the
plane will start to "hop" or "jiggle." When that starts to happen, back off
the ailerons a bit. If is smooths out, then you had too much aileron in.
If the instability gets worse, crank more aileron back in, and wait a few
seconds before trying the reduction again.
You'll get the feel of it after a few trials.
Most people have the opposite problem -- not rolling in full aileron after
initial touchdown.
ARayner191
I was taught STEER into a headwind, ie elevator neutral, rather than climb.
Dane Spearing
>>"Climb in to a headwind, dive away from a tailwind".
>
>I was taught STEER into a headwind, ie elevator neutral, rather than climb.
The "climb in to a headwind, dive away from a tailwind" phrase comes
from the days of yore when most GA a/c were taildraggers. In addition to
keeping the wind from lifting your wings, you also wanted to keep your tail
on the ground so that you can steer. Thus, the "climb" and "dive" part.
On tricycle gear a/c, you are correct in that the "climb" part isn't quite
as important when dealing with a headwind. However, it's not a bad idea to
do since if you don't pull back a bit on the yoke while taxiing, the elevators
tend to drop in to a dive position which is bad in a headwind and could
potentially result in a prop strike.
-- Dane, PP-ASEL
John Stephens
wrote:
>ARayner191 <arayn...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>"Climb in to a headwind, dive away from a tailwind".
>>
>>I was taught STEER into a headwind, ie elevator neutral, rather than climb.
>
>The "climb in to a headwind, dive away from a tailwind" phrase comes
>from the days of yore when most GA a/c were taildraggers. In addition to
>keeping the wind from lifting your wings, you also wanted to keep your tail
>on the ground so that you can steer. Thus, the "climb" and "dive" part.
Yes.
>
>On tricycle gear a/c, you are correct in that the "climb" part isn't quite
>as important when dealing with a headwind. However, it's not a bad idea to
>do since if you don't pull back a bit on the yoke while taxiing, the elevators
>tend to drop in to a dive position which is bad in a headwind and could
>potentially result in a prop strike.
No! Even with a fully deflated nose oleo, I am not aware of any trike that
will suffer a prop strike. You would have to lift the main gear off the
ground to do that. But, having said that, most trike POHs specify neutral
elevators for taxiing with a headwind component. You don't want to lift the
nosewheel off the ground in a gust, as there goes most of your steering
capability.
Mark D Jones
wrote:
>I was back taxiing to takeoff position in a xwind yesterday. The xwind was
>coming from the right when I was in position to take off. As I was back
>taxiing I went to put the aileron controls into the wind (to my left as I
>was back taxiing) and my CFI grabbed the yoke and pushed it back to the
>right saying that when I turned around into takeoff position they would be
>in the right position, which they were. The way I read the book and the way
>that makes sense to me is to ALWAYS keep the controls into the xwind. It's
>no big deal to turn the controls the other way when I turn around. Again,
>after our last full stop landing of the day, I was taxiing back (xwind
>coming from my left) and went to turn the controls to the left into the wind
>and he grabbed them and put them the other way (to the right). I didn't want
>to argue about it and the wind didn't feel strong enough to pick up the
>wing, so I let it go, but I'm really wondering who's right. I'm pretty sure
>I am, but I'm wondering if there are any other opinions on this.
>
>TIA. I'm at about 13 hours...and climbing.
>
>--
>Mike Regish
>http://members.tripod.com/~mike534
>
>
Hi Mike,
If the wind is from the front, drive into it;
if it's from the back, dive away from it.
At least it works for me.
Mark D Jones CFII
ac...@airmail.net
Robert Leong
But that's hardly ever the case. The wind is either comming form a
direction in front of or behind the wings. Always know where EACTLY the
wind is coming from at ALL TIMES as you taxi.
Left quartering headwind: aileron up on left wing and neutral elevator.
Left quatering tailwind: aileron down on left wing and down elevator.
Right quartering headwind: aleron up on right wing and neutral elevator.
Right quartering tailwind: aleron down on left wing and down elevator.
You used the term 'put the aileron controls into the wind' is unclear, it
would be better to describe and think of the actual control surfaces and how
it interacts with the wind.
You should ask your CFI and have this explained to your satifaction and
understanding. DON'T LET IT GO. You someday would have to deal with it on
your own and you better learn it now.
Mark D Jones <ac...@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:C89AE04AF9A65D46.E12E971A...@library-proxy.airnew
s.net...
Brad Crosier
about a 50 knot headwind (without substantial prop slipstream) to actually pick the
nosegear up. On the other hand, some up elevator can lessen the loads on the
nosegear on rough taxiways. Cherokees in particular are subject to engine mount
cracks where the nose oleo is welded into the frame.
rdhalste
Brad Crosier wrote:
> It may not be the case for all tricycle A/C, but the ones I've flown
would require
> about a 50 knot headwind (without substantial prop slipstream) to
actually pick the
> nosegear up.
I typically taxi with full up elevator in a 3100# Debonair, except when
it's really
windy. I can get the nose gear off at about 40 -50 MPH
One day I had parked the Debonair in front of the terminal and a number
of us were
doing a little hanger flying when I noticed a squal line headed our
way. (Lake effect
snow storms). I beat a hasty retreat for the hanger, but about half way
to the hanger
the gusts hit. I brought the plane to a complete stop on dry
ashphalt. The wind
turned me 90 degrees so that I was pointed right into the wind. Now
that's
weathervaning!
> On the other hand, some up elevator can lessen the loads on the
> nosegear on rough taxiways. Cherokees in particular are subject to
engine mount
> cracks where the nose oleo is welded into the frame.
Cherokees do not have anywhere near as much elevator authority as I
would have
expected. those engine mount cracks and wrinkles in the fire wall are
most likely from failure to hold the nose gear off when landing.
They are also very easy to either porpoise or wheelbarrow.
>
> John Stephens wrote:
>
> > No! Even with a fully deflated nose oleo, I am not aware of any
trike that
> > will suffer a prop strike. You would have to lift the main gear off
the
> > ground to do that.
You'd probably have to lift it quite a ways too. That would be one
whale of a
wheelbarrow. I'd like to get a picture of one doing that and I have
seen the mains on
several aircraft several inches off while the nose gear was still down.
> But, having said that, most trike POHs specify neutral
> > elevators for taxiing with a headwind component. You don't want to
lift the
> > nosewheel off the ground in a gust, as there goes most of your
steering
> > capability.
If the gust is that strong you will be able to steer with the rudder
just fine. Might
get interesting in a cross wind though.
I've had to taxi with the nose gear off all the way to parking at TVC
when there was a
quartering headwind on landing while both the runway and taxiway were
covered with
black ice. Twas easy to do in a 150, but I doubt that I'd be able to do
the same in
the Debonair. Certainly would be interesting to try.
>
> > --
> > John Stephens (remove spaces for legal email address)
> > s t e p h e n s @ p o b o x . c o m
--
Roger Halstead K8RI & EAA Chapter 1093 Historian
N833R Worlds Oldest Debonair? S# CD-2
http://users.tm.net/rdhalste
http://users.tm.net/rdhalste/eaa1093.htm (Chapter home page)
Marc A. Travis
>Both days we had major difficulties starting the engine. Does any one
>have tips on "cold" weather starts.
>
Jeff:
I would consult your POH for cold starting procedures - and also ask
your CFI to take you through the maintenance logs and show you how to
determine that everything is up to date including airworthiness
directives.
>things are OK, but I still ahve major problems with steep turns.
As for the steep turns, I use the horizon to maintain altitude.
Period...
1) Set up - straight and level, Va, Relax
2) Clearing turn
3) I use my attitude indicator to set the bank to 45 degees (all the
way to 45 and keep it there)
4a) If turning to the left, I pick a spot on the horizon that lies
over the center of the cowling and then try to keep it there as I go
through the turn.
4b) If turning to the right I pick a spot on the horizon that lies
over the left corner of the cowling and then try keep it there as I go
through the turn.
5) I continually scan my instruments - RPM, Airspeed, Altitude,
Verticle Speed, Heading, Turn Coordinator (that is just my technique)
while going through the turn
6) Start my roll out at about 1/2 the bank angle - in this case about
23 degrees.
EXAMPLE: If I am supposed to roll out on a 360 heading, then I start
my rollout at about 337. Don't forget to use that *rudder* on the
rollout.
Ask your CFI to demonstrate it and talk through everything he/she does
during the manuever.
>Also, we started to do some hood work, and that stuff is HARD!!
It will get easier - I remember having trouble keeping the plane going
staight on the takeoff roll... In other words, it just takes practice.
Hope that helps,
Marc