rudder/coordinated turns/crab???
Robert Chase
Ill probably end up doing some additional research on this but I wanted
to get the opinions of some other people first.
I am looking for a little insight into the philosophy of rudder usage.
Last night I went flying at night with my instructor who commented I was
"cheating" with my rudder usage during a crab into the wind. I have
been crabbing this way for quite some time, however it's never been
really that apparent to the instructor due to the minor correction I
have been making with the rudder. (it was rather windy last night and
it was apparent that I was using the rudder)
The instructor mentioned that the rudder should only be used for
coordinated flight or intentional forward slips and to overcome P
factor. I generally use the rudder for P factor, intentional forward
slips, maintaining coordinated flight and yawing the aircraft when it
comes in handy (crosswinds, making turns tighter and other uses)
Am I setting myself up for bad habits in the future?
--
Robert Chase
comanche driver
setting yourself up for the famous base to final fatal spin. thats where
you are over shooting the turn so you "tighten it up" with a little more
rudder, the plane stalls and spins to the ground. keep the ball centered
unless intend to slip.
R. Burns
CFIIME and other useless letters
"Robert Chase" <rch...@sgi.com> wrote in message
news:3C5AA066...@sgi.com...
Scott
> Am I setting myself up for bad habits in the future?
>
> --
> Robert Chase
I think so. I agree with your instructor. Only use the rudder out of
coordination for slips or crosswind landings. You should keep the ball
centered and stay coordinated at all other times. Keep the ball centered
and add more crab angle if there is a wind pushing you away from your
desired flight path. It's much more efficient. If you're flying
uncoordinated for a long time, you create extra drag and subsequently burn
extra fuel.
You risk getting yourself into a potential spin situation if the airplane is
uncoordinated. If, as you say, you "cheat" with a crosswind, you might find
it easy to "cheat" a little to help make that turn from base to final and
suddenly ruin your day. Stay coordinated all the time!
Scott
CFI
Rodney Tomlinson
usage + tight turns = Base to final stall/spin scenario. Obviously a very
bad thing. Dont sweat it though....you're still learning!
Rodney
PP-ASEL
"Robert Chase" <rch...@sgi.com> wrote in message
news:3C5AA066...@sgi.com...
Newsps
cross-control stalls-set it up just like you are turning to final, then go
for it. In doing this you really get a feel for what you are doing, and what
it ultimately leads into. The stall itself isn't vicious, and recovery is
easy, until you realize you just lost 300 feet and would be dead if this
happened on final.
"Rodney Tomlinson" <rod...@naxs.net> wrote in message
news:_rz68.105394$8b.39...@atlpnn01.usenetserver.com...
Roger Long
happens when you stomp on the rudder pedals.
http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Articles.htm
Rob S.
tighter" warnings. However, there is little harm in using rudder only
to make slight course corrections during cruise. On long XC's, I try
to get the plane set up for hands-off flying. If I find myself
drifting off of my planned course/radial, I'll use a little (very
LITTLE) rudder to get me back. How much is enough? If you can feel
any lateral G's, it's too much.
-Rob
PP/ASEL
Robert Chase <rch...@sgi.com> wrote in message news:<3C5AA066...@sgi.com>...
Dave Stadt
the hands free to deal with other chores.
Rob S. <rst...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5280ed5e.02020...@posting.google.com...
Ken Wiebe
>
> Ill probably end up doing some additional research on this but I wanted
> to get the opinions of some other people first.
>
> I am looking for a little insight into the philosophy of rudder usage.
> Last night I went flying at night with my instructor who commented I was
> "cheating" with my rudder usage during a crab into the wind. I have
[snip]
Which way?
Could you please describe in greater detail what you referred to as
"cheating with the rudder?"
Describe a typical scenario. I gather from the thread it could
generally be referred to as uncoordindated flight, but I'm curious
about the exact circumstances and the cheating procedure you've been
using. Otherwise, I don't have a good picture of what to watch out
for.
Thanks!
Tony Roberts
> I am looking for a little insight into the philosophy of rudder usage.
> Last night I went flying at night with my instructor who commented I was
Hi Robert
Consider this scenario -
Turning base to final you realise that you are turning wide -
Step one - tighten the turn with rudder
After tightening the turn you notice that your bank is steeper than you
want it to be -
Step two - apply some opposite aileron to lessen angle of bank
You then notice that you are too low -
Step three - pull back on control column
None of this sounds particularly bad does it?
Look again:
Step one - tighten the turn with rudder
Step two - apply some opposite aileron to lessen angle of bank
Step three - pull back on control column
You just set up for a snap roll!
--
Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
Jim Fisher
news:PrA68.17237$zJ3.1...@typhoon.maine.rr.com...
> Check out these articles. The last one will tell you alot about what
> happens when you stomp on the rudder pedals.
>
> http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Articles.htm
Oh no I won't Uh-Uhh! Not me!
Fool me once . . . Well, you know. ;)
--
Jim Fisher
Cherokee 180
www.EAAChapter615.org
(Just kidding! It's a good article.)
S. Miller
crabbing into the wind (read: I'm not talking about forward or side slips
on landing)...
Check out pages 98 through 100 of "Stick and Rudder" by Wolfgang
Langewiesche (available in bookstores or at your local public library).
Here the author states that it's common for students to want to use rudder
continously to crab into the wind. But he has an excellent explanation as
to why this is wrong and potentially dangerous. To crab into the wind, you
make a coordinated turn to the crab angle, and then straighten out and
continue coordinated flight. You use your rudder (and ailerons) to get
yourself into that crab angle, but after that you keep flying "straight
ahead" -- and coordinated. You'll be flying off course by the same amount
the wind is blowing you back onto course.
Repeat: You do NOT use rudder while crabbing -- only to get into your crab
angle direction to start with.
Make sense?
-s
Student Pilot who also gets carried away with rudder sometimes.
Robert Chase <rch...@sgi.com> wrote in message
news:3C5AA066...@sgi.com...
Herb Martin
The original poster wanted to the "philosophy" of rudder
work and was going to do some more research.
I know of NO better reference for this than, "Stick and Rudder"
by Wolfgang Langeswiesche. This book gets recommended
here frequently; it is one of the true classics of aviation training,
highly readable; and it is full of references to the use and misuse
of the rudder.
Herb Martin
(student pilot)
"Tony Roberts" <tonyr...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:tonyroberts-01...@24.81.6.37...
BTIZ
piper Cherokees.. get it slow on a base to final turn.. get the wind pushing
you out past your straight in final.. use a little extra inside rudder to
get the nose around.. add a little "top" (opposite) aileron to keep the bank
angle from getting to steep .. a normal tendency for long winged gliders
when flying speeds between the inside wing and the outside wing can be more
pronounced..
and the next thing you know.. the nose has dropped and tucked.. right into a
spin at below 500ft AGL..
KEEP THE TURNS COORDINATED...
knuf said..
TZ
"Rob S." <rst...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5280ed5e.02020...@posting.google.com...
Roger Long
pattern. I use 15 degrees in the 172 as it is comfortable for passengers
and still permits a nice tight pattern. Always making your turns at the
same angle makes it easier to predict where you will end up after the turn
and builds habits that will stand by you when you are distracted by
something like a bozo yelling, "I'm number 1, I'm a twin so you have to get
out of my way!" The stall speed goes up with bank angle so keeping it
modest increases your margins.
Always stay coordinated. However, it is far more dangerous to tighten the
turn than the opposite. An instructor showed me a very useful technique.
Don't try it without some consultation with your CFI but it seemed very
benign and easy in a 172. If you are high on downwind and want to use no
flaps, or minimal flaps (say for crosswind), put in lots of OUTSIDE rudder
as you turn. Watch the airspeed and the plane will slip and drop like a
rock. We did it with full outside rudder and the plane straightened up and
settled on the desired glide path quite easily when I released the pedal
pressure. Make all your rudder inputs sloowly when airspeed is low, unless
you are trying to lift a wing without using ailerons because you've gotten
too slow for them to be effective. (For more on this see:
http://www.avweb.com/articles/stalldrb)
(I'm not a CFI but I play one on Flight Simulator)
RTL
Since the rest of the bunch really gave great opinions and ideas on the
subject, I'll throw in something different.
Rudders are also useful for keeping the wings level IN CRUISE while
reading/folding charts and other things that might require two hands.
Get a few hours in a taildragger, that'll really help your understanding and
feel.
Regards,
Russ Longdon
BARR DOUG
Yeah, the fact that it's has a wheel in back and the mains further forward,
REALLY makes a big difference in the way the RUDDER works!
Robert Chase
Thanks for the reference. As I recognized what I was doing was "wrong"
(and all the potential stalls/spins possible) I wanted to fully
understand why and how things work.
Thanks for the helpful information!
Robert Chase
Silicon Graphics Computer Systems
Robert Chase
Thanks for asking for specifics. Most people have just assumed rather
than ask for details.
The particular scenario I was flying right hand traffic and had a strong
cross wind blowing me right towards the runway (winds were variable that
evening). Since I was unsure of the wind direction I made a series of
corrections with the rudder and ailerons which my instructor mentioned
were in bad form and was "cheating" since I should have predicted the
velocity and direction of the wind and made a single correction during
my downwind leg. I have to agree that she was right and I should have
made a single correction into the wind and maintained that course for
the full downwind leg rather than the "temporary corrections" I made to
keep from going out of the pattern. To further make matters slightly
worse we were flying at night and had just done some unusual attitude
work so I was feeling a little "disoriented" to begin with. We did 2 go
arounds because when I turned to final I would have had to make some
extreme corrections to land and I did not feel as though it would have
been safe. We landed the third time and it was a pretty decent
landing.
I was really looking for some insight into the philosophy of rudder use.
This particular flight has me really questioning my crosswind techniques
and my general concepts of wind correction. Its not really easy for me
to accept any procedure without understanding why and how it works
completely. With some additional research I will probably get the
answers I am looking for.
Robert Chase
--
Johnny
...yes, this is a bad habit. You should always try to keep the plane
coordinated. Center the ball unless you intend to slip the aircraft.
You could easily stall the ac in slow, uncoordinated flight near the
ground if you use this procedure to make a tight turn.
Highflyer
> I was really looking for some insight into the philosophy of rudder use.
> This particular flight has me really questioning my crosswind techniques
> and my general concepts of wind correction. Its not really easy for me
> to accept any procedure without understanding why and how it works
> completely. With some additional research I will probably get the
> answers I am looking for.
>
Rudder use is pretty straightforward. There are two different reasons
for using the rudders.
The first reason has to do with the way ailerons work. When you want to
change direction in an airplane you must create an unbalanced
accelleration in the direction of turn. Without this accelleration you
will proceed in a straight path. We do this by "banking" the airplane.
To bank the airplane for a turn you must deflect the ailerons.
When you want to raise a wing, the aileron on that wing must go DOWN.
The aileron on the wing that is going lower goes UP. The up aileron is
hidden behind the bulk of the wing and adds very little drag. The
downgoing aileron is like applying flaps and adds a considerable drag
increment. This difference in drag out at the ends of the wings tends
to swing the nose of the airplane in the WRONG direction. This
phenomena is called "adverse yaw" and is much more noticeable in older
airplanes and sailplanes with longer wings.
You cancel this unwanted yawing moment by applying some rudder.
Generally, anytime the ailerons are deflected from nuetral, so should
the rudder be deflected from nuetral to maintain "coordination."
The other use of the rudder is when you want to be UNcoordinated. You
do this when you want the airplane to move through the airmass sideways,
greatly increaseing the drag of the airplane and steepening your flight
path. There are two times that we do this. One, of course, is to
steepen our glide path to lose altitude more quickly.
The other, and very important one, it to align the airplane correctly
with the ground when the wind is blowing in a direction that precludes a
straight ahead landing. In this case you bank the airplane so it will
slip sideways to remain over the runway centerline while using the
rudders INDEPENDANTLY of the ailerons to keep the nose of the airplane
pointed at the FAR end of the runway. This makes sure that you don't
have any lateral velocity when you touch down and that your wheels are
pointed in the proper direction when they start to turn. All very
important for good directional control in landing.
--
Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services