Xwind landing experiences today & questions
A Lieberman
landings. For me, this was the first time I decided to take on winds
greater then 15 knots across the runway. Nature did not disappoint me
*smile* as I had 17 knots gusting to 24 knots. I used runway 35 as the
winds were moving and grooving from 290.
Preflight and runup went perfect, taxi to the end of 35 and off I go. Full
aileron to the left on my takeoff roll and eased the left aileron to just
left of center as my speed built up. Soon as the wheels went up, I felt
the push to the right, so I crabbed into the wind and corrected my
centerline tracking.
Turned crosswind and turned downwind at my "normal" spot, which I found out
later was a significant mistake. After all, your best landings begin with
downwind :-)
Truck on downwind adjusting for winds so that I could maintain my spacing
from the runway. No biggie, so I thought until I turned base. I never got
a chance to level off on base as the winds were pushing me through the
final approach path. Overshot final, had to button hook in to center
myself up on the runway. Because I wasn't on base for any time at all, I
found myself much higher for final then I am used to. While I had the
centerline tracking well, I didn't like the feel of the approach not being
stable on short final (making large aileron and rudder corrections), so I
went around. Because of the high winds, I had decided not to use any flaps
for any of my landings.
I turn crosswind again, and extend my cross wind a little further out and
turn downwind significantly further away from the runway then my first
trip. This helped me immensely for my pattern. Downwind abeam the
numbers, carb heat on, pull the throttle and start my descent. Turn base,
leveled the wings and then turned final. Still slightly past the
centerline final approach, but nothing like the first pattern. Because I
was doing a no flaps landing, kept my speed up to 80 knots on final
(instead of my usual 68 knots). Runway comes up quite a bit faster then my
usual approaches, but I felt the speed helped me keep a stable final
approach course. Cross the numbers, left wing down, and slowly pulled back
on the yoke, and sure enough, left tire touched the ground just after the
stall horn chirped. I was actually able to hold the right main tire off
the ground for 1 or 2 seconds after the first tire, and then the nose wheel
came down. Awesome. Throttle forward and off I go.
Third approach, widen out my pattern a little more, and nailed my base to
final turn. Stable approach, some corrections needed for turbulence,
landing was fine, just nothing like the first landing. My speed was a
little faster, so I floated a little further down the runway then I cared.
Throttle forward and off I go.
Fourth approach. For some reason, I just could not get the plane to land.
I was correcting for the Xwind, but couldn't get the beast to stop flying.
So, when I saw the aim points go below me and I was still about 3 feet in
the air, stall horn was "chirping" but I didn't feel the sink rate in my
rear end. I throttled forward and went around. My airspeed was no
different the the first three approaches, that I could see.
My go-around decision point is the aim points on the runway. If I have not
touched down by the aim points, then for me, it's an automatic go-around
for my touch and goes. Full stop landings, if the wheels have not touched
down by the first turn off 1/2 way down the runway I go around. Runway I
was using is 4,400 feet.
Fifth approach. Pattern went perfect, the winds shifted slightly as it
went to 310 degrees at 20 knots gusting to 28. Even though the winds were
higher, I didn't feel like I worked any harder as the Xwind correction
wasn't as bad as when it was coming out of 290.
Sixth approach, got the pattern down where I wanted it. Turn to final was
spot on, stable approach, a little turbulence crossing the tree line,
floated a little more then I cared to, but did my goal of setting the left
main down first. Throttle forward and off I go.
Seventh and final approach, antied up the quality and my goal was to put it
just past the numbers. This meant for me to slow my final approach down a
little more as I didn't want to float. Slowed my final approach down to 75
knots and sure enough, about 100 feet past the numbers the wheels touch
down. Not as "technically well" as my prior landings, but more then
acceptable to the landing gear.
Now my questions....
Obviously I have to fly the pattern in a safest manner possible based on
weather conditions. I have always been taught on downwind, the runway
should be *about* 1/4 mile or so to your left for downwind (left hand
patterns). Looking at my GPS tracking, I had to maintain 3/4 mile distance
from the runway for my downwind leg in order to turn base to final so I
didn't have to make any correction on the final approach course. Other
then obstacle clearance issues, would I be a hazard to others in the
pattern if they didn't maintain that kind of distance from the runway for
wind conditions? After all, when I say I am on downwind, who would think
to look so far away?
On my fourth approach, where I could not get the plane to stop flying 3
feet above the ground. Part of this I attribute to ground effect, and part
of it, I *think* the wind gust was peaking as I was trying to land. I am
just trying to Monday night quarterback and try to figure out, why the
plane didn't want to stop flying? Is my theory correct on the wind gusts 3
feet above the runway surface?
Allen
pullinggs
<- snip ->
> Obviously I have to fly the pattern in a safest manner possible based on
> weather conditions. I have always been taught on downwind, the runway
> should be *about* 1/4 mile or so to your left for downwind (left hand
> patterns). Looking at my GPS tracking, I had to maintain 3/4 mile distance
> from the runway for my downwind leg in order to turn base to final so I
> didn't have to make any correction on the final approach course. Other
> then obstacle clearance issues, would I be a hazard to others in the
> pattern if they didn't maintain that kind of distance from the runway for
> wind conditions? After all, when I say I am on downwind, who would think
> to look so far away?
Allen,
With the wind really blowing your tail on base, one has only three
choices in the pattern:
1.) Fly the ground track as usual, but use a steeper bank onto base and
final (think '1/4 of a turn around a point').
2.) Fly a bigger pattern (you pointed out the problems with that).
3.) Switch to the other side of the runway for a headwind on base.
As always, the PIC has to choose which is most appropriate for any
given landing.
-Dave Russell
If one flies the airplane as if it were an elevator, one is not a
pilot. Pilots THINK!
A Lieberman
Hi Dave,
>
> With the wind really blowing your tail on base, one has only three
> choices in the pattern:
>
> 1.) Fly the ground track as usual, but use a steeper bank onto base and
> final (think '1/4 of a turn around a point').
I did this the first two times. Steep turns 400 AGL is not my cup of tea
as I found out yesterday. With me being thumped around as I was, I found
that the steeper the turn, the larger the control inputs were needed at
slower speeds, thus my decision to widen the pattern substantially. I had
cranked in a 60 degree bank on the first pattern.
I work a very tight pattern. In my patterns, I turn final 1/4 mile from
the end of the runway. so yesterday, having been blown through the final
approach course, I really didn't get much time to stabilize the approach as
well as I am used too. Due to the inner core of KJAN being so close, I
don't have too much wiggle room for extending my final without busting
charlie airspace.
> 2.) Fly a bigger pattern (you pointed out the problems with that).
Probably the safest given the three options you gave. Yes, I realize that
others may not see me as easily, but it gave the me the opportunity to
maintain a stable plane setting up base to final.
> 3.) Switch to the other side of the runway for a headwind on base.
and go against left hand traffic? While I was the only one in the pattern
at the time, there were three other planes that took off while I was
working in the pattern. Working the opposite side in my opinion is
potentially leading to a mid air.
> As always, the PIC has to choose which is most appropriate for any
> given landing.
Yep I agree with this, but I am trying NOT to exercise the deviation from
norm part of my PIC decisions and be a good neighbor as well without
compromising safety for anybody.
Allen
John T
news:1jah7gqagvmmg$.hmev8dut...@40tude.net
>
> I had to maintain
> 3/4 mile distance from the runway for my downwind leg in order to
> turn base to final so I didn't have to make any correction on the
> final approach course. Other then obstacle clearance issues, would I
> be a hazard to others in the pattern if they didn't maintain that
> kind of distance from the runway for wind conditions? After all,
> when I say I am on downwind, who would think to look so far away?
Faster planes have to fly a wider pattern (think commuter twins or jets) so
I think any pilot should include that possibility when scanning pattern
legs. In high wind situations, I think adding 1/2 mile to your pattern is
safer than increasing bank angles and speeds.
> On my fourth approach, where I could not get the plane to stop flying
> 3 feet above the ground. Part of this I attribute to ground effect,
> and part of it, I *think* the wind gust was peaking as I was trying
> to land. I am just trying to Monday night quarterback and try to
> figure out, why the plane didn't want to stop flying? Is my theory
> correct on the wind gusts 3 feet above the runway surface?
I've had this happen, too. I've had the wind gust very strongly while in
the flare which precipitated a go-around and I've had the wind speed
suddenly drop while I was in the flare - which resulted in a firm landing.
Then I've had the wind speed pick up long enough to hold me in the flare
longer than usual, but I had time to adjust and make a "good" landing,
anyway.
I don't know that there's a standard formula for such a scenario. Just make
the safest decision based on the situation at hand.
--
John T
http://sage1solutions.com/TknoFlyer
Reduce spam. Use Sender Policy Framework: http://spf.pobox.com
____________________
john smith
A Lieberman <lieb...@myself.com> wrote:
> On my fourth approach, where I could not get the plane to stop flying 3
> feet above the ground. Part of this I attribute to ground effect, and part
> of it, I *think* the wind gust was peaking as I was trying to land. I am
> just trying to Monday night quarterback and try to figure out, why the
> plane didn't want to stop flying? Is my theory correct on the wind gusts 3
> feet above the runway surface?
When flying in high/gusty winds, you can still use the first notch of
flaps (10-degrees). If you then find yourself floating, you simply
remove the flaps and slowly increase back pressure to maintain pitch
attitude and you will settle to the runway as your airspeed is already
below no flap stall speed.
Brien K. Meehan
> > 3.) Switch to the other side of the runway for a headwind on base.
>
> and go against left hand traffic?
No. Comply with 91.126(b) and/or 91.127(a) unless it's an emergency.
A Lieberman
> When flying in high/gusty winds, you can still use the first notch of
> flaps (10-degrees). If you then find yourself floating, you simply
> remove the flaps and slowly increase back pressure to maintain pitch
> attitude and you will settle to the runway as your airspeed is already
> below no flap stall speed.
Wouldn't flaps exasperate the "effects" of ground effect? I was flying a
no flap configuration and if I was already floating, wouldn't the 10 degree
setting make me float further? I fly a Sundowner.
Where my flap handle is between the seats, the last thing I want to be
doing is reaching down for flaps in my flare.
I was always told on final, to never retract flaps and work with whatever I
have configured.
Allen
pullinggs
The OP admitted to flying a button-hook to get lined up on final; this
is a classic set-up for a stall-spin-fatal write-up by the NTSB. You
can quote FAR's at me all day if you want, but I'd much rather see a
non-standard pattern safely flown rather than another dead student.
As I said the first time, it's up to the PIC to consider all possible
options and then decide what is safest for any given landing (and every
minute of every flight, for that matter).
Dave Russell
N2S-3
john smith
A Lieberman <lieb...@myself.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 05 Feb 2006 18:05:00 GMT, john smith wrote:
>
> > When flying in high/gusty winds, you can still use the first notch of
> > flaps (10-degrees). If you then find yourself floating, you simply
> > remove the flaps and slowly increase back pressure to maintain pitch
> > attitude and you will settle to the runway as your airspeed is already
> > below no flap stall speed.
>
> Wouldn't flaps exasperate the "effects" of ground effect? I was flying a
> no flap configuration and if I was already floating, wouldn't the 10 degree
> setting make me float further? I fly a Sundowner.
Remember what I said, the 10-deg stall speed is lower than the no-flap
stall speed. The Sundowner's low wing will respond to the flap
retraction quickly. You do no drop the flap handle quickly, you ease it
down. You can have some fun pumping it up and down, too!
> Where my flap handle is between the seats, the last thing I want to be
> doing is reaching down for flaps in my flare.
> I was always told on final, to never retract flaps and work with whatever I
> have configured.
Find a copy of Leighton Collin's "TAKEOFF AND LANDINGS".
There is alot of valuable information you will learn to use.
Brien K. Meehan
> You
> can quote FAR's at me all day if you want, but I'd much rather see a
> non-standard pattern safely flown rather than another dead student.
If we don't all fly by the same set of rules, you're more likely to see
both.
If I'm flying by the rules and you're not, you could very easily kill
me. I'd really prefer that you didn't. In fact, I insist upon it.
Peter R.
> Wouldn't flaps exasperate the "effects" of ground effect? I was flying a
> no flap configuration and if I was already floating, wouldn't the 10 degree
> setting make me float further? I fly a Sundowner.
Hey, Alan - I briefly thought of this thread today when I was flying my V35
into Buffalo, NY, airport this morning for my weekly commute.
A departing low pressure system resulted in a 28 kts gusting to 45 kts
about 20 degrees left of rwy 24 centerline at Buffalo. Accompanying the
winds were continuous windshear alerts of +25/-10 kts on short final.
There was a Dash-8 at the hold short of 24 when I came bouncing and rolling
down final. Those two pilots probably had a bet as to the outcome of the
landing they were witnessing. :) Today's flight ranked as my most
wind-challenged landing in my logbook to date.
Given the very long runway at Buffalo, I opted for one notch of flaps and
about 20 kts faster approach speed until just over the runway, then killed
the power and dropped it a bit hard onto the runway. I cannot speak for
your Sundowner, but the Bonanza will drop like a rock, with or without
flaps, when power is cut.
--
Peter
A Lieberman
> Hey, Alan - I briefly thought of this thread today when I was flying my V35
> into Buffalo, NY, airport this morning for my weekly commute.
> A departing low pressure system resulted in a 28 kts gusting to 45 kts
> about 20 degrees left of rwy 24 centerline at Buffalo. Accompanying the
> winds were continuous windshear alerts of +25/-10 kts on short final.
*smile*, must have been a routine flight.... up until final :-) You sure
are a brave sole! I think with winds like that, I would have enough lead
in my britches to not worry about ground effect!
> Given the very long runway at Buffalo, I opted for one notch of flaps and
> about 20 kts faster approach speed until just over the runway, then killed
> the power and dropped it a bit hard onto the runway. I cannot speak for
> your Sundowner, but the Bonanza will drop like a rock, with or without
> flaps, when power is cut.
Yes, like your Bo, I sink like a rock with no power. Just curious, like
you I came down the pike 22 knots faster the normal approach speed )90
knots vs 68 knots), but I elected no flaps. Was there a reason you went
with 10 degrees flaps rather then none.
My rational was to have the least amount of airframe hanging out for the
winds to push me around. I figured the slimmer and thinner I could keep
it, the more streamline the plane would be to cut through the Xwind.
Allen
A Lieberman
> Remember what I said, the 10-deg stall speed is lower than the no-flap
> stall speed. The Sundowner's low wing will respond to the flap
> retraction quickly. You do no drop the flap handle quickly, you ease it
> down. You can have some fun pumping it up and down, too!
I'd have to pass on your style (recommendation) as I don't think I am that
good of a pilot to let my hand leave that throttle from short final to shut
down (or go around).
It's bad enough that I can barely see over the cowling in my flare, can't
imagine me reaching down for that johnson bar flap handle AND maintaining
the same constant back pressure on the yoke AND correcting aileron for
Xwinds at the same time AND using rudder to maintain my yaw.
Allen
Greg Esres
Ground effect is a reduction in induced drag near the ground, which
won't be affected by the presence of flaps. However, the extra drag of
the flaps will allow the plane to slow down faster, which will
counteract the reduced drag of ground effect.
Greg Esres
the winds to push me around. I figured the slimmer and thinner I
could keep it, the more streamline the plane would be to cut through
the Xwind.>>
This is a common rationale, but I think it's based mostly on a mistaken
mental model. The aircraft's response to gusts depends more on the
lift coeffficient that it's currently maintaining, which is the same
for a given airspeed, flaps or no flaps.
The amount of crosswind that an aircraft can handle depends mainly on
its rudder authority. Since the use of flaps tends to increase the
directional stability of the aircraft, the net effect is a reduction in
rudder authority. This, however, is irrelevant as long as you have
*sufficient* rudder authority.
I've had no problem using 40 degree flaps in a C172 with crosswinds
gusting to 30 knots. My suspicion is that your flapless landings
gained you nothing.
Peter R.
> *smile*, must have been a routine flight.... up until final :-) You sure
> are a brave sole! I think with winds like that, I would have enough lead
> in my britches to not worry about ground effect!
By no means was that particular flight a routine flight. :) In fact, that
one stands out in my logbook as the strongest sustained winds and gusts in
which I have flown to date (in about 950 hours).
> Yes, like your Bo, I sink like a rock with no power. Just curious, like
> you I came down the pike 22 knots faster the normal approach speed )90
> knots vs 68 knots), but I elected no flaps. Was there a reason you went
> with 10 degrees flaps rather then none.
I recall several threads here and in rec.aviation.piloting concerning flaps
versus no flaps during gusty conditions. Many of the experienced pilots in
these groups seem to agree that one should still use flaps and increase
approach speed by 1/2 the gust factor.
In the case of this flight, I decided to compromise by using the first
setting of flaps and coming in fast. As you know, flaps lowers stall speed
and my thinking was that I didn't want a negative windshear to drop my
airspeed close to stall speed while on short final.
--
Peter
TMG
flaps
> versus no flaps during gusty conditions. Many of the experienced pilots
in
> these groups seem to agree that one should still use flaps and increase
> approach speed by 1/2 the gust factor.
>
> In the case of this flight, I decided to compromise by using the first
> setting of flaps and coming in fast. As you know, flaps lowers stall
speed
> and my thinking was that I didn't want a negative windshear to drop my
> airspeed close to stall speed while on short final.
>
My 2 cents: If you're concerned about windsheer, it really does not matter
if you are 10 knots above Vs0, flying clean, or 10 knots above Vs1 with full
flaps. However, an increase for the gust factor obviously is wise, and 50%
seems to be accepted as a good rule-of-thumb.
Coming in clean will give you the highest approach speed, a higher approach
speed will give you less relative X-wind and higher rudder autorithy. With a
first set of flaps this effect will (almost) remain, but in addition it will
help to slow down a bit faster (and you will have to slow down sometime...).
This way you will be able to come in reasonably fast (add even more than 1/2
the gust), and let 1st flap setting slow you down on short final (where
hopefully the gusts will also be less violent)
Arnoud