Crosswind landings-whats the limit?
rra...@courant.infi.net.nospam
Yesterday in a 152 I tried some landings with a 20-knot crosswind
component. My CFI looked paler than usual after we landed.
Whats the general wisdom out there re: the maximum crosswind component
it's sane to land a 152 in?
Delete the "nospam" domain for my e-mail address.
Happy Flying!
Peter Harris
I understand that it is 12 knots in a 152.
Regards
Peter
On Sun, 11 May 1997 02:20:02 GMT, rra...@courant.infi.net.nospam
wrote:
Dave Stadt
12 knots is the maximum demonstrated which doesn't have much to do with
real life. The real limit depends on pilot ability, flap setting,
approach speed, etc. If pilot ability is up to the task, you will
typically run out of rudder first. Options then are to make another
approach at a few knots higher speed and/or less flaps. You will know
well before touchdown you can't get things lined up and need to go
around and try again. If all else fails go to another airport with more
favorable runway directions.
Back when, my usually conservative instructor took me up on one of
those 20 knot direct crosswind days. Crosswinds haven't been the
same since.
Anybody have comments on C172 crosswind ability. Seems to me the 172
runs out of rudder long before the 152.
Dave S.
Bill Lattimer
>Back when, my usually conservative instructor took me up on one of
>those 20 knot direct crosswind days. Crosswinds haven't been the
>same since.
>
Are you guys talking about a 20 kt direct (i.e. 90 degrees off the
runway centerline) xwind?
John Stephens
On Sun, 11 May 1997 02:20:02 GMT, rra...@courant.infi.net.nospam wrote:
>Yesterday in a 152 I tried some landings with a 20-knot crosswind
>component. My CFI looked paler than usual after we landed.
>
>Whats the general wisdom out there re: the maximum crosswind component
>it's sane to land a 152 in?
I'm surprised that you had enough rudder authority to do this if the wind
reaaly had a 20 kt cross-component, without putting a significant side load on
the tires when you touched down. Probably the wind at the runway was less than
reported -- many windspeed indicators are mounted considerably higher up.
There is no specific "max component" that is either sane (or safe) -- it is a
matter of personal experience, ability, and choice. Personally, if I do not
have enough rudder to hold runway alignment without drifting sideways as I
cross the threshold, I will abort the landing and go around. In a C-172 this
is closer to 16 kts (for me) than 20.
Gerald Kurata
>I understand that it is 12 knots in a 152.
>
>Regards
>
>Peter
>
>On Sun, 11 May 1997 02:20:02 GMT, rra...@courant.infi.net.nospam
>wrote:
>
>>Yesterday in a 152 I tried some landings with a 20-knot crosswind
>>component. My CFI looked paler than usual after we landed.
>>
>>Whats the general wisdom out there re: the maximum crosswind component
>>it's sane to land a 152 in?
>>
>>Delete the "nospam" domain for my e-mail address.
>>
>>Happy Flying!
>>
>
I believe the 12 knots is the demonstrated crosswind ability of the
152. This is the number Cessna has certified the plane to handle. It
also means that during the period that Cessna did the testing that
that is what they felt comfortable saying the plane will do. This
does not mean that a competent pilot could not land in more that that
(as the original poster did). I have landed a 152 in 20 gusting to 25
crosswinds and I am by know means an expert.
With that said, I feel that one should go out with their instructor
and find out what their personal limits are.
Jerry
Dave Stadt
Yes
Dave S.
John R. Johnson
On Sun, 11 May 1997 rra...@courant.infi.net.nospam wrote:
> Yesterday in a 152 I tried some landings with a 20-knot crosswind
> component. My CFI looked paler than usual after we landed.
>
> Whats the general wisdom out there re: the maximum crosswind component
> it's sane to land a 152 in?
>
Near sea level 10knots gusting to 20 would be extremely dangerous unless
you were really competent.
At Denver, a steady 30 knots is common and easily handled.
All generalizations are false. It depends entirely on your capabilities
and the steadiness of the wind. A strong steady crosswind is much easier
to handle than a gusty twitchy crosswind of much smaller magnitude.
John
nightjar
Gerald Kurata <jer...@insteptech.com> wrote in article
> I believe the 12 knots is the demonstrated crosswind ability of the
> 152. This is the number Cessna has certified the plane to handle. It
> also means that during the period that Cessna did the testing that
> that is what they felt comfortable saying the plane will do.
I have been told that it was the strongest wind they could find when doing
the certification. I understand that the similar 150 has a higher
demonstrated crosswind ability because the wind was stronger when they
certified that.
Colin Bignell
Hilton Goldstein
rra...@courant.infi.net.nospam wrote:
>
> Yesterday in a 152 I tried some landings with a 20-knot crosswind
> component. My CFI looked paler than usual after we landed.
>
> Whats the general wisdom out there re: the maximum crosswind component
> it's sane to land a 152 in?
Trivia:
The interesting thing is the way the aircraft turns after landing. If
the wind is from the right, does it get blown left or right?
Hilton
--
Hilton Goldstein.............................hilton@sgi.com
415-933-5254 (phone).....................(fax) 415-390-6159
M/S 1L-945, 2011 N. Shoreline Blvd, Mountain View, CA 94043
http://reality.sgi.com/hilton
AAAAA - American Association Against Acronym Abuse
Dave Stadt
Eh, I'll leap in and say the tail gets blown to the left (downwind)
which turns the plane to the right and if bad enough you ground
loop to the right and/or run off the runway into the wind. Basically
the plane will windvane into the wind. In a tail dragger it can be
the limiting cross wind factor.
Next question is what do you do when you land a C172 in a stiff
crosswind, get it planted rolling straight down the runway, full
aileron into the wind and it starts skidding downwind toward the
side of the runway. It was no doubt caused by my having to carry
extra speed to keep the rudder effective enough to maintain
longitudinal(sp) alignment.
Dave S.
Hilton Goldstein
Jerry Bransford wrote:
>
> Hilton Goldstein wrote:
> >
> > rra...@courant.infi.net.nospam wrote:
> > >
> > > Yesterday in a 152 I tried some landings with a 20-knot crosswind
> > > component. My CFI looked paler than usual after we landed.
> > >
> > > Whats the general wisdom out there re: the maximum crosswind component
> > > it's sane to land a 152 in?
> >
> > Trivia:
> >
> > The interesting thing is the way the aircraft turns after landing. If
> > the wind is from the right, does it get blown left or right?
>
> say it wants to turn into the wind. If it's a wheelgear equipped
> aircraft, probably just wants to go straight, or to the left.
I'll probably be here late tonight :( Works sucks! :) Ahhh, that
feels better. Anyway, it'll go to the right because of weather-vaning.
Shouldn't it be called wind-vaning? This is assuming that the upwind
wing isn't picked up off the ground and the plane flipped over or other
bad things like that.
Jerry Bransford
Hilton Goldstein wrote:
>
> rra...@courant.infi.net.nospam wrote:
> >
> > Yesterday in a 152 I tried some landings with a 20-knot crosswind
> > component. My CFI looked paler than usual after we landed.
> >
> > Whats the general wisdom out there re: the maximum crosswind component
> > it's sane to land a 152 in?
>
> Trivia:
>
> The interesting thing is the way the aircraft turns after landing. If
> the wind is from the right, does it get blown left or right?
Hilton, haven't you left work yet LOL???!!! If it's a taildragger, I'd
say it wants to turn into the wind. If it's a wheelgear equipped
aircraft, probably just wants to go straight, or to the left.
Jerry
--
NOTE: To reply, remove the "NOSPAM" from my email address.
Jerry Bransford
PP-ASEL, C.A.P., KC6TAY
The Zen hotdog... make me one with everything!
Hilton Goldstein
Dave Stadt wrote:
>
> Eh, I'll leap in and say the tail gets blown to the left (downwind)
> which turns the plane to the right
Yip. That seriously confused me the first time it happened - even
though I had read about this phenominun! :)
Hilton
> Hilton Goldstein wrote:
> >
> > rra...@courant.infi.net.nospam wrote:
> > >
> > > Yesterday in a 152 I tried some landings with a 20-knot crosswind
> > > component. My CFI looked paler than usual after we landed.
> > >
> > > Whats the general wisdom out there re: the maximum crosswind component
> > > it's sane to land a 152 in?
> >
> > Trivia:
> >
> > The interesting thing is the way the aircraft turns after landing. If
> > the wind is from the right, does it get blown left or right?
> >
Richard C. McCann
Uhm..... I sure hope you didn't have a 20 knot crosswind when you took off!
I was under the impression that a 17 knot crosswind was tops in a 152.
Glad it was you and not me!
Jon Thackray
Dave Stadt <dhs...@ameritech.net> writes:
>
> 12 knots is the maximum demonstrated which doesn't have much to do with
> real life. The real limit depends on pilot ability, flap setting,
> approach speed, etc. If pilot ability is up to the task, you will
> typically run out of rudder first. Options then are to make another
> approach at a few knots higher speed and/or less flaps. You will know
> well before touchdown you can't get things lined up and need to go
> around and try again. If all else fails go to another airport with more
> favorable runway directions.
>
> Back when, my usually conservative instructor took me up on one of
> those 20 knot direct crosswind days. Crosswinds haven't been the
> same since.
>
> Anybody have comments on C172 crosswind ability. Seems to me the 172
> runs out of rudder long before the 152.
Actually, the 172 can do extremely well in crosswinds. I once landed
one on a runway 22 with surface wind 28025/40. Not an experience I
want to repeat, but the plane handled it fine.
--
Dr. Jon Thackray jo...@harlqn.co.uk 44 1223 872522 (voice)
Harlequin Ltd. 44 1223 873873 (fax)
Barrington Hall
Barrington
Cambridge CB2 5RG
England
James M. Knox
In article <01bc5f11$64f21240$7c83f2c2@default>,
"nightjar" <nigh...@pavilion.co.uk> wrote:
>I have been told that it was the strongest wind they could find when doing
>the certification. I understand that the similar 150 has a higher
>demonstrated crosswind ability because the wind was stronger when they
>certified that.
Correct... Those are formal certification tests (i.e. a pain to get everyone
there at the same time), so the demonstrated crosswind ability is the lower of
a) what they think the plane will handle, and b) what they had available to
work with (wind-wise). Of course, it is also to some small degree a marketing
number -- meaning if on the scheduled day they only get 4 knots they will
almost certainly try again.
I flew a PA28-161 into Love Field (DAL) one day when the crosswind was steady
and exactly at book value. Other runways were available, but the one still in
use had 17 knots x-wind (book demo'd). Looking down at the 150 foot wide
runway, I figured "what the heck" and gave it a try. Made a fairly nice
landing, as such things go, but:
a) I was pretty much right at my rudder limit. Any more x-wind and I would
have either had to use a different runway, or do a crab-kickout landing
instead of a wing-low landing.
b) Taxiing was a heck of a lot more nerve wracking than the landing was! <G>
jmk
William L. Bahn
Hilton Goldstein <hil...@sgi.com> wrote in article
<337799...@sgi.com>...
> rra...@courant.infi.net.nospam wrote:
> Trivia:
>
> The interesting thing is the way the aircraft turns after landing. If
> the wind is from the right, does it get blown left or right?
>
expect the aircraft to 'move' into the wind. I wouldn't call this getting
'blown' into the wind. From the side, most airplanes are going to have a
very unbalanced planform about the vertical axis due to the vertical stab.
The wind will therefore create a moment about the vertical axis that will
point the nose into the wind. The friction of the runway and/or taxiway
will then push the airplane into the wind (as will the thrust from the
engine - but the motion will be into the wind even if the engine is not
running).
I believe that this is the technique used in sailing to sail into the wind
(tacking?). You let the wind push you mostly sideways (relative to the
wind) but use the grip of the water to make headway into the wind at the
same time. I'm not a sailor in any respect so I'm just guessing about this.
Rick Macklem
James M. Knox (tri...@bga.com) wrote:
: Correct... Those are formal certification tests (i.e. a pain to get everyone
: there at the same time), so the demonstrated crosswind ability is the lower of
: a) what they think the plane will handle, and b) what they had available to
: work with (wind-wise). Of course, it is also to some small degree a marketing
: number -- meaning if on the scheduled day they only get 4 knots they will
: almost certainly try again.
I believe that FAR 23 requires that it be a minimum of 0.2 * Vso
(20% of the stall speed in landing configuration) and the Transport
Canada exams emphasize that number.
Have fun flying, rick
John R. Johnson
On 14 May 1997, Rick Macklem wrote:
>
> I believe that FAR 23 requires that it be a minimum of 0.2 * Vso
> (20% of the stall speed in landing configuration) and the Transport
> Canada exams emphasize that number.
>
> Have fun flying, rick
>
And since FAR 23 also specifies a maximum Vso of 70 mph for single engine
airplanes, or perhaps it is now 62 knots, 20% of 70 is 14 mph is the
maximum crosswind required to demonstrate for any single engine airplane.
The Cessna 152 demonstrated 12 knots, which is safe for ANY single engine
airplane!
John
Dave Stadt
William:
Not sure I follow your crosswind landing explanation but what happens is the
plane weather vanes into the wind.
As far as a sailbooat goes......sailing up wind, lift is developed by both
the sail and the keel. Very little slip takes place unless guess what, yep,
you stall the sail and or the keel. Slip amounts to a couple of degrees if
you have everything trimmed the way it should be.
Dave S.
2 years a pilot
15 years a competative Lake Michigan sailor
Steve Fox
My C-150 POH says max crosswind is 13 kt.
: I have been told that it was the strongest wind they could find when doing
: the certification. I understand that the similar 150 has a higher
: demonstrated crosswind ability because the wind was stronger when they
: certified that.
--
_______________
Steve Fox, mailto:sf...@eskimo.com, http://www.eskimo.com/~sfox/
Seattle area Pipe Organ home page: http://www.eskimo.com/~sfox/seaorgan.htm
Roger Halstead
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>
> a) I was pretty much right at my rudder limit. Any more x-wind and I would
> have either had to use a different runway, or do a crab-kickout landing
> instead of a wing-low landing.
>
IMHO I think that you'll find that this is not a place to use a "kick
out"
It's actually one of the drawbacks to using a "kick out" in that you
don't know if you are going to have enough rudder until you are in the
situation where you need it.
The "kick out" is just changing from a crab to the forward slip at the
last moment. If you find that there isn't enough rudder you will most
likely set down with the plane still in a crab or find that after
planting the gear on that you can not keep the plane on the runway.
> b) Taxiing was a heck of a lot more nerve wracking than the landing was! <G>
That I can certainly identify with.
Roger Halstead
N833R Worlds oldest Debonair S# CD-2
http://members.tm.net
>
> jmk
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Jerome Kaidor
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.970514141825.21114Z@reliant>,
*** What about tailwheel airplanes? My Cessna 140's manual specifies a
maximum demonstrated crosswind component of.... just a second.... (pages
flipping....) Huh? Gee... There doesn't seem to be a crosswind component
specified. Guess they didn't have to fess up to crosswinds in 1947.
So - all you taildragger pilots out there: What's YOUR "maximum
crosswind component"?
- Jerry Kaidor ( je...@tr2.com )
Jerome Kaidor
In article <3377A8...@sgi.com>, Hilton Goldstein <hil...@sgi.com> wrote:
>Dave Stadt wrote:
>>
>> Eh, I'll leap in and say the tail gets blown to the left (downwind)
>> which turns the plane to the right
>
>Yip. That seriously confused me the first time it happened - even
>though I had read about this phenominun! :)
>
**** So if you want to give yourself the maximum leeway in a crosswind,
do you land on the upwind or downwind side of the runway?
John R. Johnson
> - Jerry Kaidor ( je...@tr2.com )
>
Jerry,
I have landed the C-140 in a 35 knot direct crosswind on a grass runway.
Above that speed, or even at that speed, landing directly ACROSS the
runway was actually feasible!
John
John R. Johnson
This is going to sound strange. To make an absolute maximum effort
crosswind landing, watch your wingtip. Chances are good that you will
have enough rudder to hold your upwind wingtip about three inches off
the runway. If you touch down on the downwind corner heading toward
the upwind side of the runway at an angle that would put you over the
edge about halfway through your rollout, and then make your landing in
a large arc with a slight turn downwind, so that you use the entire
width of the runway. The idea is that the tipping force from the downwind
turn will help balance the crosswind component, while the wingtip just
clear of the runway gives you the maximum slip component. As the
airplane slows increase your aileron deflection until you have full
aileron required to keep your wingtip down.
Land on the upwind wheel and keep that downwind wheel up as long as you
can. Using this technique I have successfully landed in crosswinds that
were extreme enough that a normal "into the wind" landing straight
across the runway was a viable alternative!
These acrobatic crosswind landing performances took place in Colorado,
Wyoming, and Nebraska, where a thirty knot direct crosswind is looked at
as a light breeze! I have made landings out there where, after landing,
I was unable to put the tail down and had to sit there balanced on the
main gear with the engine running until someone could come out and grab
the struts so the airplane wouldn't blow over when I set the tail down!
John
On 19 May 1997, Jerome Kaidor wrote:
Kimberle Shropshire
It's been pretty windy here in the northeast. Yesterday I went out with
my former instructor (hey, it doesn't hurt to get instruction AFTER you
have your ticket!). The wind was kinda stiff and variable. We were
coming in for a crosswind landing and ran out of rudder. When you got the
rudder in all the way and can't keep the center line than you've exceed
the limit of your plane. My guess is that you might exceed the limit
(yours or the plane's) BEFORE that, so be sure to be prepared to go
around.
Kimberley Shropshire
Kirk Ellis
On Fri, 23 May 1997 08:07:20 -0500, "John R. Johnson" <jo...@siu.edu>
wrote:
>I did do a wheelie. I usually do with the crosswind is real strong.
>The tricky part comes when you let the tail down. The trick is to
>be as slow as you can and still let it down slowly. Don't drop it
>down with a whump or you will likely lose directional control.
>
>I must admit, that on the landing I told you about, when I put the
>tail down and went through that tail low interval just before the
>tailwheel is solid on the ground, I caught a gust and made a sudden
>90 degree turn right between the runway lights!
>
>I parked with aplomb and pretended like I always make my turnoff
>that way. There was an old cropduster sitting in front of the
>hangar watching me. He laughed like crazy! He did compliment me
>on the crosswind landing technique though. I had that upwind wingtip
>about 4 inches off the pavement the whole length of the rollout!
>
>John
>
How is it possible for a pilot to keep a wing that close to the ground
in a strong crosswind. As a new student pilot I cannot for the life of
me ever imagine myself holding it that close to the ground without
hitting it. Impressive!
--
kel...@bellsouth.net
24.8 hrs............
John R. Johnson
On Fri, 23 May 1997, Kirk Ellis wrote:
> On Fri, 23 May 1997 08:07:20 -0500, "John R. Johnson" <jo...@siu.edu>
> wrote:
<snip>
> >
> >I parked with aplomb and pretended like I always make my turnoff
> >that way. There was an old cropduster sitting in front of the
> >hangar watching me. He laughed like crazy! He did compliment me
> >on the crosswind landing technique though. I had that upwind wingtip
> >about 4 inches off the pavement the whole length of the rollout!
> >
> How is it possible for a pilot to keep a wing that close to the ground
> in a strong crosswind. As a new student pilot I cannot for the life of
> me ever imagine myself holding it that close to the ground without
> hitting it. Impressive!
> --
A lot depends on where you are, Kirk. Down here in the eastern lowlands,
crosswinds are unduly cross! They twitch and gust without rhyme or
reason. Here, you need more lattitude and would NOT be able to hold
the upwind wing anywhere that close to the runway.
However, out west, where the wind is extremely constant and strong, it
is an entirely different matter. Here the wind is unbelieveably
steady and constant. You can set up a correction on final, and expect
it to be right. None of that jockeying back and forth as the wind
shifts and changes strength. That is what really made it possible.
John
Kirk Ellis
On Fri, 23 May 1997 11:55:49 -0500, "John R. Johnson" <jo...@siu.edu>
wrote:
That makes lots of sense. Here in Florida I have seen the winds change
direction by as much as 45 degrees or more and bounce me all over the
place. Must be because I am only two miles from the Atlantic. Its a
great view, but the winds are extremely unpredictable. Does make it a
challenge though. Perhaps I will be able to do some flying when I get
back out west so I can see what those constant winds are like.
Blue Skies
Kirk
--
kel...@bellsouth.net
24.8 hrs............
John R. Johnson
On Thu, 22 May 1997, Jerome Kaidor wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.970519162059.24520M-100000@reliant> you write:
> >
> >Jerry,
> > I have landed the C-140 in a 35 knot direct crosswind on a grass runway.
> >Above that speed, or even at that speed, landing directly ACROSS the
> >runway was actually feasible!
> >
> >John
> >
> John...
>
> That's impressive. Did you do a wheelie, or did you 3-point it?
>
> - Jerry
>
I did do a wheelie. I usually do with the crosswind is real strong.
The tricky part comes when you let the tail down. The trick is to
be as slow as you can and still let it down slowly. Don't drop it
down with a whump or you will likely lose directional control.
I must admit, that on the landing I told you about, when I put the
tail down and went through that tail low interval just before the
tailwheel is solid on the ground, I caught a gust and made a sudden
90 degree turn right between the runway lights!
I parked with aplomb and pretended like I always make my turnoff
that way. There was an old cropduster sitting in front of the
hangar watching me. He laughed like crazy! He did compliment me
on the crosswind landing technique though. I had that upwind wingtip
about 4 inches off the pavement the whole length of the rollout!
John
Hiflyer07
Having experienced some hellacious x-wind needs in over 50 years of
flying, I commend John's techinique of using a circular arc rollout to use
centrifigul force to counter the wind, etc./. Have used this many times
with taildraggers wwhen the wind was too strong for the routine
"non-aerobatic" techniques.
Bob